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Rafael Chacón makes art accessible · A New Angle

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This is A New Angle,
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a show about cool people doing awesome things in and around Montana.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Justin Angle.
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SPEAKER_01: This show is supported by First Security Bank,
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SPEAKER_01: Blackfoot Communications,
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SPEAKER_01: and the University of Montana College of Business.
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SPEAKER_01: Hey folks, welcome back, and thanks for tuning in.
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SPEAKER_01: Today,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm speaking with Raphael Chacon,
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professor of art history at the University of Montana and
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director of the Montana
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SPEAKER_01: Museum of Art and Culture.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a remarkable museum.
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SPEAKER_02: It's now over 130 years old.
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It's a museum that has always been associated with the
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University of Montana.
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It is the state's,
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as you mentioned,
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the state's largest and deepest art collection.
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SPEAKER_01: The MAMAC is one of three state museums and holds the state's oldest,
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SPEAKER_01: largest,
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SPEAKER_01: and deepest collection of art.
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SPEAKER_01: Rafael, thanks for joining me.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
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SPEAKER_01: So tell us, where did you grow up and what did your parents do?
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SPEAKER_02: I grew up in Northwest Indiana.
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SPEAKER_02: I was born in Cuba.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: Born and almost raised there.
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SPEAKER_01: What's the story from getting from Cuba to Hammond, Indiana?
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SPEAKER_02: Well, it's a long convoluted story.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: To summarize,
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SPEAKER_02: my family settled in the north when they came here,
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SPEAKER_02: and my family started emigrating after the Cuban Revolution of 1958.
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SPEAKER_02: So throughout the 60s,
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SPEAKER_02: various branches of the family migrated north,
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SPEAKER_02: and they went to places like Detroit.
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SPEAKER_02: We landed in Detroit first in 1970.
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SPEAKER_01: Wow, that is a big swap from Cuba to Detroit.
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SPEAKER_02: And in fact, it was December when we arrived.
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SPEAKER_02: I've never seen snow in my entire life.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, we could probably do an entire series of podcasts on that story.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll save that for another day.
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SPEAKER_01: How did you get interested in art?
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SPEAKER_01: When did it start to capture you?
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SPEAKER_02: I would say there's no organic reason for my being interested in art.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean, there were no artists in my family.
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SPEAKER_02: We rarely visited museums as a family.
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But as a kid living just outside of Chicago,
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museums and art were a huge part of my development.
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SPEAKER_02: So I tell people that we used to ditch school because we had a train,
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a commuter train that dead-ended just beneath the Art Institute
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of Chicago.
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So in high school,
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we used to leave school with friends and just head up into the city.
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SPEAKER_02: It was cheap.
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SPEAKER_02: And so the Art Institute of Chicago became like a playground for us.
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As a child,
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I was always interested in art and I thought of myself as a
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would-be artist.
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But it was really those trips to the Art Institute of Chicago
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that kind of formed
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SPEAKER_02: this interest in museums and interest in art,
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SPEAKER_02: contemporary art,
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SPEAKER_02: older art.
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SPEAKER_01: So you get your PhD at University of Chicago, prestigious institution.
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SPEAKER_01: How do you then make your way to Montana?
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the job was here yeah so i went out on the job market i was abd
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um all but
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dissertation right i was a shy a couple months shy of defending
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my dissertation and
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i was kicked out of the nest so to speak i was told by my
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partner then that you
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have to go out and see test yourself see if you're marketable
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okay and of course
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the market was pretty squishy back then with academic jobs and
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a full-time tenure
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SPEAKER_02: track academic jobs in art history
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SPEAKER_02: So it was a good idea to just,
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SPEAKER_02: even without the PhD in hand,
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SPEAKER_02: to go out and see what was available.
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SPEAKER_02: And I applied for 10 jobs.
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SPEAKER_02: Number 10 was Miyazaki, Japan.
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SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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SPEAKER_02: Number nine was Missoula, Montana.
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And they could have been in the same place at that point
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because both were enigmas to me.
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SPEAKER_02: Had you been to Montana at all before?
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SPEAKER_01: Never.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: Never been farther west than Kansas City.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yet you've stayed here a long time.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
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SPEAKER_01: What's kept you here?
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, what didn't keep me here?
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SPEAKER_02: When I arrived, I immediately took to this place.
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SPEAKER_02: I had five callbacks from those 10 jobs.
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SPEAKER_02: So I was traveling and interviewing all over the country,
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SPEAKER_02: some places in the south,
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SPEAKER_02: some places back east.
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SPEAKER_02: And then the last one was here in Missoula, Montana.
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SPEAKER_02: And when I landed here, I thought, wow, this is paradise.
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SPEAKER_02: I just fell in love with the place.
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SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to why it's a great place to live,
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but why is it a great place to build a career as a budding art
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historian and critic?
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SPEAKER_02: At that point,
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SPEAKER_02: and we're talking now 30 years ago,
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SPEAKER_02: art history was a field that was in huge transition,
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SPEAKER_02: but it was coming into the public consciousness as an important subject.
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SPEAKER_02: The museums actually were pretty dormant prior to the 1980s,
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SPEAKER_02: and then in the 80s they had this incredible revolution,
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SPEAKER_02: a kind of renaissance,
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SPEAKER_02: if you will.
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SPEAKER_02: Museums started rebuilding.
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People,
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I think,
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became conscious of how important art collections are in their lives.
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SPEAKER_02: And coming to the rural West was a personal adventure, first of all.
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SPEAKER_02: But secondly,
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there was a challenge in bringing the knowledge that I had from
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growing up in Chicago.
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SPEAKER_02: And I did an internship at the Met in New York City.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've traveled a lot in my life as a young person.
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SPEAKER_02: And I thought I had something to offer.
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I thought I had these great Western traditions and also global
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traditions that I could share.
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SPEAKER_02: And what I found in Montana,
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which I didn't necessarily find in all those other job
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opportunities around the country,
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SPEAKER_02: was this avid interest in the outside world,
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SPEAKER_02: in art historical traditions.
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And I found a department here at the University of Montana that
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was open to my
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SPEAKER_02: teaching a whole range of different subjects today.
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western non-western art uh as long as i taught contemporary art
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and taught what was
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actually happening today they were happy for me to teach any
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version of art history
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that i wanted to and that sense of carte blanche that i had was
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really a gift yeah
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SPEAKER_02: and i ran with it and i have had a fantastic career in my opinion
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SPEAKER_02: doing that here.
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SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
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SPEAKER_01: So you are an expert in something known as vexillology.
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SPEAKER_01: You're going to have to fact check me on that pronunciation,
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SPEAKER_01: but what is vexillology and why should we care about it?
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's such a vexing question.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, I set you up for that one.
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No,
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vexillology derives from the Latin vexillum,
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which is the word for flag.
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SPEAKER_02: Flag.
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SPEAKER_02: So vexillology is the formal or the academic study of flags.
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SPEAKER_02: I have always been interested in flags ever since I was a kid.
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SPEAKER_02: It intersected beautifully with my discipline, which is art history.
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Flags as signs,
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flags as symbols,
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flags as ideological statements,
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as works of design.
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SPEAKER_02: So they're works of art.
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SPEAKER_01: Do you have a favorite flag?
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, I have lots of favorite flags.
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SPEAKER_02: But more than that, I have lots of flags I don't like.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, interesting.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, would you share any of these favorites or the ones you don't like?
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SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll give you a political answer.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't like the Montana State flag.
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SPEAKER_02: Tell me why.
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I know there are a lot of people who love that flag because
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it's our flag,
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SPEAKER_02: but that flag is at the very bottom of poorly designed flags.
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SPEAKER_02: There's a class of flags that have very little creativity to them,
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SPEAKER_02: and they're difficult to read.
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The Montana flag is what they call a seal on a bed sheet
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because it's the simplest
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SPEAKER_02: formula for state flags.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a blue field and they plop the state seal on it.
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And a lot of states did that,
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by the way,
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as they were coming into statehood 100 plus years ago.
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SPEAKER_02: It was a very uncreative act.
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The state recognized that it was a poor flag because it was
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constantly confused
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SPEAKER_02: with other state flags that had exactly the same formula.
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SPEAKER_02: And so they added the word Montana.
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SPEAKER_02: And one of the rules of good flag design is you don't add words to flags.
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SPEAKER_02: Flags shouldn't have words.
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SPEAKER_02: Flags should not need words.
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SPEAKER_02: You should be able to read the flag from both sides.
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SPEAKER_02: The seal is virtually illegible from a distance.
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One of my favorite flags,
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to answer your earlier question,
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is the Colorado State flag.
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SPEAKER_02: It has a big C in the middle of it,
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SPEAKER_02: so it doesn't have a word,
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SPEAKER_02: but it has a C.
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SPEAKER_02: The sea with the sun theme to it.
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SPEAKER_02: The sun poking through it.
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SPEAKER_02: You see that flag, you immediately know it's Colorado.
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and that's the kind of flag that montana needs yeah flags is
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brands as you were
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talking about these design principles it's a bit of art but
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it's also kind of a
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marketing project too i'm seeing some overlap in our
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sensibilities here raphael yes
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it is a marketing project and actually and i think the states
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that have changed
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SPEAKER_02: their flags of late have understood that and have moved
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SPEAKER_02: And of course,
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SPEAKER_02: a flag should have some connections to the history of the place,
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SPEAKER_02: to the people of the place,
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SPEAKER_02: the values of the place.
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SPEAKER_02: But flags really do need to represent the people.
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SPEAKER_02: They need to represent their values.
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And they should be so visually stimulating that you know
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immediately what it refers to.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think we have a challenge ahead of us.
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SPEAKER_02: How do we rebrand the state?
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SPEAKER_02: How do we say who we are through a new flag?
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SPEAKER_02: I'd love to see that project come to fruition.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: How big a constituency is there for this effort of yours?
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SPEAKER_01: Probably about four people.
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SPEAKER_01: Four people.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a start, right?
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SPEAKER_01: So you,
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SPEAKER_01: for the last five years,
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SPEAKER_01: have been the director of the Montana Museum of Art and Culture,
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SPEAKER_01: affectionately known as the MAMAC.
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SPEAKER_01: Tell us about the MAMAC.
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SPEAKER_01: What is it?
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SPEAKER_01: Why does it exist?
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SPEAKER_02: Well, it's a remarkable museum.
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SPEAKER_02: It's now over 130 years old.
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It's a museum that has always been associated with the
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University of Montana.
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It is the state's,
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as you mentioned,
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the state's largest and deepest art collection.
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SPEAKER_02: It is a world-class collection, and it's a global collection.
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SPEAKER_02: It doesn't just represent great American art,
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SPEAKER_02: great Western art,
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SPEAKER_02: but it also has a huge collection of art from Asia,
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SPEAKER_02: from Africa,
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SPEAKER_02: from all over the world.
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So if you think about the Metropolitan Museum of Art or the
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Louvre or the great
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SPEAKER_02: museums of the world,
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SPEAKER_02: This is a mini version of that.
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SPEAKER_02: We have things from ancient Greek pots to Andy Warhol.
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SPEAKER_02: And of course, it's a university collection.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's a teaching collection.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a research institution.
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And it's an institution that in some ways has suffered all the
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indignities of being
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SPEAKER_02: attached to an institution like the University of Montana,
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SPEAKER_02: the highs and lows.
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SPEAKER_02: In some eras,
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there was a great deal of collecting activity and teaching with
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the collection and exhibitions.
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SPEAKER_02: And in other areas, depending on the social, political, economic climate,
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SPEAKER_02: It waned.
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SPEAKER_02: Its influence waned.
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SPEAKER_02: The institution has also suffered from not having a permanent home,
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SPEAKER_02: so it was kicked around the campus for many decades.
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We are in a great time now because the university is committed
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to featuring this
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institution and these resources that really belong to the
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people of Montana.
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SPEAKER_02: This is an amazing collection that belongs to all of us.
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SPEAKER_01: Talk about the new home.
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SPEAKER_01: The building is beautiful, located in the north zone of campus.
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SPEAKER_01: It's been open, what, a little over a year now, year and a half?
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SPEAKER_02: We opened in September 2023.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay, year and a half.
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SPEAKER_01: So yeah, talk about the new building.
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We owe a lot to A&E architects who designed the building,
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a local architectural firm.
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They really saw the potential of a building surrounded by a big
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parking lot on the
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SPEAKER_02: north end of campus as an opportunity to make a cultural statement.
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And I remember the conversations where we talked about the
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building being a piece of sculpture.
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SPEAKER_02: And so they designed the building to be beautiful from all angles,
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SPEAKER_02: to be seen in the third dimension fully as a piece of sculpture.
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SPEAKER_02: But more importantly, the building works for our collections.
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SPEAKER_02: It's designed so that a visitor can come in and see what the museum does,
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SPEAKER_02: visually what our work is about,
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SPEAKER_02: and at the same time enjoy the art.
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SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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SPEAKER_02: And enjoy it in the span of an hour to two.
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So we didn't want to design a building that would tax the viewer,
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as so many museums do.
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SPEAKER_02: Either it's too much,
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SPEAKER_02: it's overwhelming,
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museums tend to be labyrinths that you have to navigate with a
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map and a lot of assistance.
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SPEAKER_02: And so it's a very accessible facility.
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SPEAKER_01: I love that it's set among the Performing Arts Center,
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SPEAKER_01: the Adams Center,
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SPEAKER_01: the Washington Grizzlies Stadium,
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like all of these spaces where we can put the university's
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public-facing activities
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and opportunities to engage with the public on widely different dimensions,
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SPEAKER_01: sort of in the same space.
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SPEAKER_01: There's some elegance to that, I think.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I give a lot of credit to that idea to President Bodnar.
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SPEAKER_02: When we were talking about that location,
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SPEAKER_02: that parking lot on the north side of campus,
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SPEAKER_02: we were aware that we were actually complementing a corridor,
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SPEAKER_02: which he now calls an arts and entertainment corridor,
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because we have the Adams Center right across the street from
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us on Campus Drive,
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SPEAKER_02: the performing arts and television,
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SPEAKER_02: radio television center to our south.
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And then all of these things are linked together on this
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memorial row that takes
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SPEAKER_02: you to the heart of the campus.
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SPEAKER_02: And we also found out,
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we discovered that memorial row has the highest foot traffic
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and bicycle traffic on
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SPEAKER_02: anywhere on the campus.
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It is a major entryway from across the river and town into the
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university campus.
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SPEAKER_02: Now people see us visibly and they identify then the arts with athletics,
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SPEAKER_02: with entertainment,
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with the performance and theater events and dance that are
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happening to our south.
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So we really are part of a new entry and a new corridor that
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really features the
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SPEAKER_02: arts and performance for the university.
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SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: Talk about the work of a museum director.
12:53
What is your charge and how do you make choices about what goes
12:57
in the museum,
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what doesn't?
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SPEAKER_01: When you're talking about collections, that's from the verb to collect.
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SPEAKER_01: How do you go about collecting things?
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The director's responsibility is not just the safety of the art
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collections and
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SPEAKER_02: making those things accessible,
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but I was thinking immediately fundraising because so much of
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the activities of a
13:14
director is really to make sure that the institution is
13:16
financially stable and that
13:18
SPEAKER_02: you have the means by which to do the programming that you want.
13:23
The New York Times a few years ago did a really amazing piece
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about museum directors,
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SPEAKER_02: and it described our profession as an octopus.
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SPEAKER_02: There's so many arms, tentacles that a director has to have in play.
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And so what I think of is that there are directions that an
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institution like a
13:42
SPEAKER_02: museum could take.
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SPEAKER_02: And the healthiest museums have very active educational programming,
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SPEAKER_02: very active research collections,
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SPEAKER_02: very active exhibitions programs.
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SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they do the stuff of community organizing.
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SPEAKER_02: They become community centers, hubs for a lot of different activities.
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And in some ways,
14:03
a director has to decide what are the priorities of this institution.
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SPEAKER_02: So in the case of the Montana Museum of Art and Culture,
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SPEAKER_02: our first priority was to that collection because we have,
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SPEAKER_02: again,
14:13
SPEAKER_02: this superb collection,
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SPEAKER_02: an amazing state resource,
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SPEAKER_02: and that hasn't been taken care of very well,
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SPEAKER_02: certainly not housed well.
14:22
And so our first priority was to make sure that collection was
14:25
safe and in good
14:26
condition and in a condition in which the public could interact
14:29
with it and
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SPEAKER_02: students could research it and classes could use it in their pedagogy.
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SPEAKER_02: So the first responsibility was to that collection.
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And then to make sure that our programming around that
14:39
collection was robust so
14:41
SPEAKER_02: that you have the proper staff,
14:43
SPEAKER_02: you have people actually using the collection and making it available.
14:48
We'll be back to my conversation with Raphael Chacon after this
14:52
short break.
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SPEAKER_01: A New Angle is proudly presented by First Security Bank,
14:59
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15:00
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15:03
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15:27
SPEAKER_00: Hi,
15:27
SPEAKER_00: this is Sheila Stearns,
15:28
Commissioner Emerita of the Montana University System and
15:31
former president of the
15:32
SPEAKER_00: University of Montana.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: You are listening to one of my favorite podcasts, A New Angle.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to A New Angle.
15:43
I'm speaking with Raphael Chacon,
15:45
director of the Montana Museum of Art and Culture.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned fundraising.
15:50
You and I share a friendship and share gratitude for Michelle
15:54
and Lauren Hanson.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: They're supporting a new exhibition at the MAMAC called 19 Under 39,
15:59
SPEAKER_01: the Michelle and Lauren Hanson Biennial Exhibition.
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SPEAKER_01: Talk about this new project and how it came to be.
16:06
It's an amazing project,
16:08
but first let me say something about Michelle and Lauren.
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SPEAKER_01: Please.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: These folks are amazing friends, and they are such good alumni.
16:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: They are so loyal to this institution, but also to our state.
16:19
And they have kind of an awareness of how important,
16:22
how vital the arts are in the state.
16:24
They surprised us a few years ago with,
16:26
it was Michelle who came up with this idea that
16:30
She wanted to support the museum and she wanted to support our collections.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: And of course most of our collection comes as gifts from individuals,
16:36
SPEAKER_02: so it's grown mostly as bequests and donations.
16:41
But one of the problems that we have is we have very little
16:44
money to acquire new
16:45
SPEAKER_02: art and to stay current.
16:47
And one of our missions is in fact to collect the art of
16:51
contemporary artists,
16:53
SPEAKER_02: whether they are a part of this community,
16:54
SPEAKER_02: students,
16:55
SPEAKER_02: faculty,
16:56
SPEAKER_02: artists in the community.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: And so they were concerned that we really couldn't grow.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: 19 under 39 was a solution for that.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: And it's an ingenious idea.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: This is an exhibition that happens every two years.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: It's an invitational show.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: So we basically invite artists within the ages of 19 and 39.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: So it's a younger generation of artists.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: to compete for top prizes, and those are purchase prizes.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: So the top three awards then enter the museum's collection.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: So this is a way for us to stay current,
17:30
not only to exhibit a cross-section of what's happening in the
17:34
state in terms of
17:35
SPEAKER_02: our visual arts,
17:36
but it's also a way for the museum's collection to stay apace
17:39
with new developments
17:41
SPEAKER_02: in the visual arts.
17:41
sure and are all the participants montana artists they are
17:45
montana artists so we
17:46
are through this exhibition we're supporting young montana
17:49
artists in the range and
17:51
the submissions were amazing because it really was an enormous
17:55
cross-section from
17:56
here to glendive uh from missoula to glendive of younger
18:00
artists some of them just
18:02
out of high school some of them just out of college some of
18:04
them still in college
18:06
And then artists in their 20s and 30s who are very serious
18:09
about what they're doing.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: And so not only to see their art,
18:13
SPEAKER_02: but to hear what they're interested in doing,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: how they express who they are,
18:17
SPEAKER_02: and the role of art in their lives,
18:19
SPEAKER_02: that's really exciting.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: So we have the 19 artists now.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: We're currently curating the exhibition.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: So this exhibition is running through the end of September,
18:29
SPEAKER_02: so it'll be on view throughout the summer and into early fall,
18:33
and it'll give us a chance to actually see the remarkable
18:35
output of these younger
18:36
SPEAKER_02: artists across the state.
18:38
Is there any commentary you can provide on what younger people
18:42
are thinking about
18:45
SPEAKER_01: with their art,
18:45
or is there anything noteworthy about this younger generation
18:49
of artists that's
18:49
SPEAKER_01: coming forth in Montana?
18:51
i think when you enter the gallery and see this exhibition what
18:54
you'll see is an
18:54
enormous diversity of not just materials and types of works of
18:58
art so we have
18:59
colossal sculptures and very intimate prints and beautiful
19:03
paintings really
19:05
inventive use of materials but you'll also see this incredible
19:09
range of themes some
19:11
of the themes are very quiet and very personal others are very
19:16
vocal and very
19:16
SPEAKER_02: political even and
19:19
What is true is that young artists today are very aware that
19:23
they're not just
19:23
SPEAKER_02: living in Montana and rural places,
19:26
SPEAKER_02: that they are part of a much larger world.
19:28
And so we tend to think of Montana as provincial because of our
19:33
rural nature.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: But the reality is that the visual arts show us that we're not.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: Those artists,
19:39
SPEAKER_02: no matter their age,
19:41
SPEAKER_02: are connected to the rest of the world in very powerful,
19:44
SPEAKER_02: significant ways.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: And I think they're also challenging people
19:47
what they're hearing and reading and what they're encountering
19:49
in the world so you
19:51
mentioned some of the winners will their work will be brought
19:54
into the permanent
19:55
collection for the purposes of this exhibition however how many
19:59
pieces are being
20:00
displayed there are 19 artists and some of the artists have
20:04
multiple pieces some of
20:06
the artists have one piece that has multiple parts so it
20:09
depends on the nature of
20:11
the art that the artist makes they were all selected by a
20:13
selection committee a
20:14
SPEAKER_02: statewide committee
20:16
SPEAKER_01: That has to be quite a project,
20:17
SPEAKER_01: putting together a committee and also thinking of the selection criteria.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: That has to be a daunting endeavor.
20:25
That was a fun endeavor to gather people around the state who
20:29
represent different communities,
20:30
SPEAKER_02: but who also know the lay of the land in terms of the arts in the state.
20:34
To have them look at this cross section of artists and then to
20:37
whittle it down to 19.
20:39
And then from that,
20:40
to whittle it down to three artists who are representing this generation.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: That's a real challenge, but it was also a lot of fun.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: And I think they enjoyed the process.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: We all think we lived in interesting times.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: It's arguable that this time is particularly interesting.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: There's a high degree of political polarization.
20:58
There seems to be these political coalitions that are
21:02
fracturing and reorganizing
21:04
SPEAKER_01: and reshuffling and a lot of focus on culture war.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Seems like just a rich landscape for artists at the moment.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Given your knowledge of art history,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: how do you think about these moments in history,
21:20
these moments of social and political upheaval and the art that
21:24
comes from them?
21:26
SPEAKER_02: I think it's fair to say that we're in a very unstable period.
21:30
But I would say in the visual arts,
21:31
we've been unstable for at least 20 years.
21:34
We've been in this postmodern world where the old standards and
21:38
the old definitions
21:39
of what it meant to be great or to be a genius or to be the
21:43
artist of the time,
21:43
SPEAKER_02: that those things have gone by the wayside.
21:45
The landscape in the visual arts has become much more varied
21:50
and contentious even,
21:51
I would say.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: So what is happening today politically is not new to the art world.
21:57
For the last,
21:58
I'd say,
21:58
20 or 30 years,
22:00
the art world hasn't had a clear direction.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: Andy Warhol said that every artist gets 15 minutes of fame.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: I like to say that today they get 15 nanoseconds of fame, if that...
22:10
SPEAKER_02: Think about how memes come and go.
22:12
But the political landscape has shifted dramatically,
22:15
and we don't know where it's going.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: I worry, of course, about arts funding.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: How much of a role will the state continue to play in the arts?
22:22
So the funding streams that institutions like ours have
22:26
depended on for many years
22:27
SPEAKER_02: may or may not be around five years from now.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: So there is that kind of sense of instability.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: On the other hand,
22:35
SPEAKER_02: I also think that,
22:37
SPEAKER_02: like I said,
22:37
SPEAKER_02: for artists,
22:38
SPEAKER_02: this is not an unusual predicament.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: Artists are always trying to figure out what the market is doing,
22:43
SPEAKER_02: what the market wants,
22:45
SPEAKER_02: how they intersect with that.
22:47
They have to make a decision whether they're going to make art
22:49
for themselves,
22:51
SPEAKER_02: and they have the resources to do that,
22:53
or whether they're going to make art for a certain kind of
22:56
demographic or certain population,
22:58
SPEAKER_02: certain set of patrons.
23:00
artists are always trying to figure that out i do think though
23:04
that if there has
23:05
been complacency it's been around the idea that everybody has a
23:10
shot at it that may
23:12
shift it may not be true that every artist has a chance at
23:16
success yeah how artists
23:17
define success may not look like the way we traditionally
23:21
define success for
23:22
SPEAKER_02: example
23:24
SPEAKER_02: An artist who sells most of their work not in an art gallery,
23:27
SPEAKER_02: not through museums and galleries,
23:29
SPEAKER_02: but rather sells stuff online,
23:31
is in a different place than an artist who relied on schlepping
23:35
paintings around or
23:37
SPEAKER_02: walking with a portfolio into gallery after gallery.
23:40
These things,
23:41
we might see them as negative,
23:43
but we could also see them as new opportunities.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
23:45
think of some of those forces that you outline are playing out
23:48
in journalism,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: in the sort of visual media,
23:53
like television and movies and like the way content is shifting
23:58
with the streaming
23:58
SPEAKER_01: era and all the TikTok and all of these forces.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I can see how they would generalize to the art world as well.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: Ideologically, the landscape is also all over the map.
24:09
We're not in a Renaissance where we're all aiming for the same
24:11
set of social and
24:12
SPEAKER_02: political ideas.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Artists are all over the map.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: There are artists who are making art for themselves,
24:18
SPEAKER_02: strictly for private delectation,
24:20
SPEAKER_02: for their own pleasure,
24:21
SPEAKER_02: their own needs,
24:22
SPEAKER_02: their own psychological needs,
24:23
SPEAKER_02: whatever.
24:24
And there are artists who are catering to different branches of
24:27
the market.
24:28
There are artists who are working out there because they have a
24:30
community of people
24:31
SPEAKER_02: interested in what they have to say.
24:33
SPEAKER_02: There are also artists who are very politically active,
24:36
SPEAKER_02: both left and right,
24:37
SPEAKER_02: who are making social statements.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: And to your earlier question, it is a kind of chicken and egg thing.
24:44
Is the pivot that's happening politically impacting the art or
24:49
is the art impacting
24:51
SPEAKER_02: the politics of the day?
24:54
SPEAKER_02: We don't really know where that lands.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's probably a bit of both.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: Just a little anecdote.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: I was in Mexico City late in 2024.
25:03
I was able to see a lot of the art of the Mexican muralists
25:06
from the 1920s,
25:07
30s,
25:07
and 40s.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: This was a generation of artists.
25:09
The most famous ones,
25:10
of course,
25:10
are Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo and Jose Clemente Orozco.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, these are the big, the muralists.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: They were very much in lockstep with the politics of their day.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: In fact,
25:24
many of them were recalled from abroad to come and create these
25:28
incredible murals,
25:29
SPEAKER_02: create art that redefined Mexico for a new state,
25:34
SPEAKER_02: new political order.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: The government played a huge role in that.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: It was a socialist government,
25:39
SPEAKER_02: and it was very much about changing,
25:42
SPEAKER_02: revising Mexican history,
25:43
SPEAKER_02: changing the politics of the day through this art.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: And they did it on a grand scale.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, all
25:51
SPEAKER_02: these public buildings,
25:52
SPEAKER_02: all these monuments are decorated with a revision of Mexican history,
25:55
SPEAKER_02: a retelling of that history,
25:57
SPEAKER_02: a history that now elevated the Indian,
25:59
SPEAKER_02: elevated the mestizo,
26:00
SPEAKER_02: it elevated the poor,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: it educated the poor,
26:04
SPEAKER_02: which was mostly illiterate and landless,
26:06
SPEAKER_02: about who they were in this new Mexico.
26:09
that was remarkable but i think in this world today where the
26:14
arts are so varied
26:15
and so contentious and they represent such pockets of
26:19
communities and people around
26:20
the planet it's hard to see how a style certain set of ideas
26:26
political or otherwise
26:27
are social that those ideas could in fact be embraced by the
26:31
nation or by the whole
26:32
SPEAKER_01: world i love the prospect of a shared story
26:37
SPEAKER_01: And not necessarily monoculture, but a shared project.
26:40
I feel like some notion of a shared project in this country is
26:43
fractured and it's
26:44
SPEAKER_01: harder to tell in our media environment.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And the notion that art can play a role and even in a fractured world,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: bring together some story of cohesion is an exciting idea.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: The humanist in me wants to see a new art that is about unity.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: It's about democracy.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: It's about the validation of the individual in a society.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what I'd love to see in the arts.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Raphael,
27:09
SPEAKER_01: one of the things I love most about you is not only your enthusiasm,
27:13
SPEAKER_01: but you talk about art in a way that's accessible.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: It can be intimidating for folks.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Make the case for a visit to the MAMAC.
27:22
Why can it be a place that even a newcomer to art would want to
27:25
go and see and experience?
27:28
SPEAKER_02: First of all,
27:28
SPEAKER_02: if you want to experience art,
27:31
SPEAKER_02: great art,
27:33
SPEAKER_02: in a kind of quiet environment,
27:35
SPEAKER_02: in a way that you can just approach things on your own,
27:38
SPEAKER_02: ask your own set of questions,
27:39
SPEAKER_02: this is a great place to do that.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: But if you also want art that's going to challenge you,
27:44
SPEAKER_02: that's going to knock your socks off,
27:46
SPEAKER_02: that's going to stimulate you and ask you questions,
27:49
SPEAKER_02: this is also a great place to do that.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: And it's an easy access museum.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: It's free.
27:55
You can come in any day after noon,
27:57
Tuesday through Saturday,
27:58
and see what's there.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: And again,
28:01
I'd like to think that we are about making this resource
28:05
available to people in a
28:06
SPEAKER_02: way that is easy for them.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: And they can get involved then at any level that they want after that.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: Raphael,
28:13
SPEAKER_01: thanks so much for being here,
28:15
SPEAKER_01: telling us about the MAMAC and all the great things you do,
28:17
SPEAKER_01: giving us an education about flags.
28:19
Yeah,
28:19
we'll see how the effort to redesign the Montana flag goes,
28:22
but I wish you all the best.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Justin.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to A New Angle.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: If you like what we do and want to support us directly,
28:30
SPEAKER_01: please consider a subscription at anewanglepodcast.com.
28:36
A New Angle is recorded at Studio 49,
28:38
a generous gift from UM alums Michelle and Lauren Hanson.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Our presenting sponsors are First Security Bank,
28:45
SPEAKER_01: Blackfoot Communications,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: and the University of Montana College of Business.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: Kelly Larson is our producer.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Maddie Jordan is our production assistant.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: VTO Jeff Amet and John Wicks made our music.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: And Jeff Meese is our master of all things sound.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time.