Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 120: Adaptive Hunting and Fishing

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Ep. 120: Adaptive Hunting and Fishing · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is Me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything. Okay, First thing, Chris Klass, be on
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: a thank you um ahead of time here before we
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: even start, like to thank you for coming um the
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: show to talk to us about some things that I've
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: aged are probably like difficult talk about at times. Um. Yeah, No,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here and really grateful for you
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: guys to to create an opportunity. Two. I think, ah
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: build public awareness around what's important to me and a
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: lot of other people. So yeah, I'm kind of struggling,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: um in a way that I usually don't to begin, uh,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Like like where to start right? Like I want to
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: ask you like what adaptive hunting or adaptive fishing, like
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: what that means? But I also want to talk about
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: your personal story of how you came, you know, to
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: be in a situation where you needed to become aware
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: of what those things are yourself. What like what what
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: feels more natural to you? Um? Either way, maybe defining
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: what is adaptive hunting, fishing, any kind of adaptive recreation.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Let's do that. Um, It's all I would say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's just it's just a person who has a need
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  Speaker 1: UM because they have a particular limitation, whether that's physical
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: or whatever. They have a need to find a way
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  Speaker 1: to be able to pursue the things that they enjoy.
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  Speaker 1: And for me, that means hunting, fishing, camping, and stuff
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: like that. And so you know, like we we kind
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: of have always said that, well, there's two terms. One
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: is adaptive equipment UM, and then that applies to adaptive hunting, fishing, etcetera.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: And the other is assistive technology, which is kind of
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  Speaker 1: the broader field of you know, the kind of equipment
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  Speaker 1: that ranges from communication devices to recreational equipment, computer access equipment, UH,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: home daily living modifications and equipment. And we've kind of
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: always said that assistive technology can range from uh a
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: piece of duct tape or bailing lock wire two UM,
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  Speaker 1: a very very high tech communication device that helps someone
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  Speaker 1: with no verbal skills be able to communicate through a
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  Speaker 1: computer using their eyeballs and a tracking system. So obviously
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  Speaker 1: there's a very wide range, wide range of technologies. And
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  Speaker 1: and I guess the other important thing is whatever you're
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  Speaker 1: talking about, it's not the actual device or piece of
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  Speaker 1: equipment that defines it as adaptive equipment or assistive technology,
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  Speaker 1: but rather the way it's used. So you know, a
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  Speaker 1: piece of duct tape is a piece of duct tape.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: But um, if somebody doesn't have the ability to hold
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  Speaker 1: a TV remote, for example, maybe a piece of duct
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  Speaker 1: tape sticks it to a coffee table so slide away
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  Speaker 1: from them, and that becomes an adaptive technology. Yes, yeah,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: in okay, Now can you explain your own personal limitations
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: to It's just so the listeners. I want to walk
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: people through kind of your your personal journey and sort
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: of your background in the out of doors that you
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: that you came up against what I would presume to
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: have seemed like an insurmountable wall in pursuing the activities
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: that you love and then your journeyed up find a
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: way over or through or under that wall. Right, okay,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: So well, first of all, I'm a quarter pleagic, high
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: level quarter to blegic, you know, and they based on
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: the number of vertebrae, they give it a give it
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: a denotation. I'm I must see three four quad. It
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: means my nerve injury, my spinal forward injury occurred at
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  Speaker 1: the level of the third to four vertebrae down from
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: the base of my skull. And so at that level
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: of injury, UM, you know, it can affect a person's diaphragm,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: you know, making them UH ventilator dependent. Fortunately, I can breathe.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I have a quiet voice, but I can breathe independently UM.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: And then I have no UH sensation or motor function
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: below that level, so said Jana told me, I believe
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: that you said you cannot feel your traps. Correct there,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: I would say, like clavicles are there's impaired sensation. I
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: might be able to you know, if somebody rubs on it,
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  Speaker 1: I would probably know that something's happening, but I'm not
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: normally feeling, If that makes sense. It does. And when
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: you say, like when you when you talk about the
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: ability to feel mm hm, meaning if someone pinched your elbow,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: you would not know that that was happening, right, yep, yep.
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  Speaker 1: So use of use of appendages, arms, legs obviously out
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: of the question. Exactly. Yeah, And it it gets a
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  Speaker 1: little more complicated. UM part of your body's autonomic system,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: you know, which motivates your fight or flight response. UM
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: also has the ability to tell you when something's wrong,
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  Speaker 1: where you can't feel it. So you know, if I
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: drove my wheelchair into a wall or something and broke
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  Speaker 1: my toe, I wouldn't feel it. But because of my
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  Speaker 1: body's autonomic system, I would probably know something's wrong without
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: being traced, like how you knew it right, And and
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: then kind of the scary thing about that is when
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: that happens, and so they call it autonomic disreflecxia. And
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: when that happens, typical things are profuse sweating, um, unilateral flushing,
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  Speaker 1: Like one side of my face or head will turn
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  Speaker 1: all red, you know, And I mean it's like there's
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: a perfect line down the center of my face and
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: one side is read the other side is not. Um.
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  Speaker 1: The other thing is that you're pulse rate slows way down,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: but your vessels constrict and so your blood pressure go
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: as sky high and and I know people have stroked
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: out from it before that. It's pretty serious. Yeah, And
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the scary part, as I started to say, is that
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: when that happens to me, I don't really know where
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to start to figure out what's wrong, you know what
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, because you're lacking like those those physical cues
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to tell you that where something happened. Yeah, did you
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing you grew you grew up hunting fishing, grew
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: up in the out of doors. Sketch that out for
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: me a little bit. Um. So I grew up Norther
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Great Falls and Conrad and um, you know, dry land
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: farming community and there's a lot of pheasants on getting
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: part ridge things like that. So did you did you
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: come from an agricultural family? Um? No, we lived We
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: lived in town. My folks lived on small farm right
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: before I was born. But I did live in town.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: But all my buddies were farm kids, you know. So
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I ran around with them a lot on the How
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: old are you? And then so you guys hunted birds, birds,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: We hunted deer, sometimes elk, but pretty unsuccessfully you know,
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  Speaker 1: as a kid. Um, And it was an extended family thing.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I've just been a lot a lot of time hunting
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: with my uncle who's from Beaute. Um, you know, grandparents, cousins,
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  Speaker 1: things like that. To what degree did you self identify
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: as an outdoorsman? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: if people, if someone said, oh, tell me about yourself, right,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: how quickly would you get to the hunting fishing part
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: of it, Um, I would say, I'd get there. It
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: might not have been the first thing I said, maybe
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the third um human Americanish. Yeah. Yeah. And as as
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: a kid, like like lots of people, I had so
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: many different interests, you know, and I was unfortunately I
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: was introduced to rodeo and I so I rode horses
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: a lot, and so that was a big part of
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: my interest as well as you know, I wrestled in
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: school and stuff like that sort of variety of things,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: but certainly, certainly hunting and fishing was part of who
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I was. But it sounds like you lived in a
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  Speaker 1: like you lived in intensely physical existence when you think
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: of wrestling, rodeo, hunting, and fishing. Yeah, I think so yeah,
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  Speaker 1: So what M when did you like how and when
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: did you suffer your injuries? Um? So in n I
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: was living in Helena, going to high school, graduated high school,
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  Speaker 1: and it was my last year in high school rodeo
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  Speaker 1: so um. After the state high school finals in every state,
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  Speaker 1: then the top four qualifiers go to are uh they
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  Speaker 1: qualify for UM the high school national finals. Rodeo and
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  Speaker 1: I did not qualify for the national finals. But then
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  Speaker 1: there's been a longstanding. They call it invitational. They call
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: it Silver State Invitational rodeo in fell In, Nevada. So
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  Speaker 1: a buddy of mine who had also just graduated high school,
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  Speaker 1: Danny Slayton, and I had both qualified for Silver State.
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  Speaker 1: We traveled down there. Um, you know, we're at the
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: rodeo and stuff steer wrestling, and Danny was a bull rider.
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  Speaker 1: Can you explain what steer wrestling is? Yeah, just like
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  Speaker 1: someone who yeh, yeah, it's called steer wrestling or bulldogging.
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  Speaker 1: And so basically they're your uh, the steer wrestlers on
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  Speaker 1: a horse, and there's a shoot in front of and
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  Speaker 1: to the right of the steer wrestler. When he nodds
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: his head, they left the steer out. It takes off
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  Speaker 1: for the back side of the arena, and on the
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  Speaker 1: other side of the steer is what they call a hazer,
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  Speaker 1: another guy on a horse. And so the steer wrestler
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  Speaker 1: and the hazer come out of that box and approached
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  Speaker 1: the steer, and the steer wrestler then gets down, uh,
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  Speaker 1: off the right side of the horse, and the goal
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  Speaker 1: is to slide up to the steers horns, grab him
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  Speaker 1: in a particular way and then uh wrestle it to
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  Speaker 1: the ground basically, and that it's a time to vent
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  Speaker 1: and the time ends when the steers four feet are
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  Speaker 1: point in the same direction and it's on its side.
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  Speaker 1: The steer wrestling. Does it find its origins in an
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  Speaker 1: actual activity like roping? Yeah, but there's so there's a
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  Speaker 1: in if you're working cattle, there's a scenario on which
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  Speaker 1: you do something like that. Yeah. I don't think it
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  Speaker 1: happens every day that some guy in a big field
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  Speaker 1: bails off and you know, throws a steer. But but
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's origin was you know, traditional cowboy work,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm guessing just to subdue it, to check on
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: it or give it some medicine exactly. Now, is that
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: the one where you get to tie them? No, no,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: m you just had to get them on their backs
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: or their side in the air four usually like horizontal
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: in the area. All right, So thanks for entertaining that
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: little digression. But so you're headed down into your headed
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: down to was a bat a right? Yeah, So we
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: went to Danny and I went down there and uh
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: so we went to the rodeo. We're traveling home and um,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: probably fifty miles from home on we direcked this pack
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: up and so that was it. I I sustained my
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: spinal cord injury, and um, that was icy no July
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: and it was evening. I'm not sure what happened. I
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: have no memory of it, none whatsoever. And next thing
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I knew it was two months later and I was
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: in two months later, have been Denver, yeah, you know,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: and I was looked around and asked where I am
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: and why am I there? You know, and then I
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: discovered what had happened. I'm clear on this, but I
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: just wanted to back up. Two months went by that
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: you were not conscious or not. I'm not aware of
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: what had happened or where you were. Well, I guess
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: that's a little bit exaggeration. July nine until September two,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: so probably that's seven weeks. Oh yeah, I mean, well
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not counting, Davis, but I just like
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: just kind of stunting. So all of a a sudden you
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: wake up in the hospital and lo and behold, yeah,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: you can't feel anything, you can't move Ye, what was that? Like?
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I can only I mean, it's probably probably
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: gonna find the limits of language when you try to
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: explain what that was like, right, I think, uh yeah,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: originally you're You're almost where I almost was trying to
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: understand what was happening, what reality was, but at the
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: same time trying to convince myself that it wasn't happening,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: if that makes sense. There's a you read a lot,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you know who Victor franco Is Man. Why do I
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: feel like I know that? No, I don't tell me
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: a bit more. He was a Jewish psychiatrist. Okay, So anyway,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: in his book, he he writes about this, this what
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: he calls delusion of reprieve, which is when your mind
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: convinces you that everything's gonna be okay. And he says,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I'll until the the last second that a condemned man hangs,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's what happened, you know.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I had a lot of
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: stuff to learn, which is the whole purpose of rehab,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: you know. I I had to kind of relearn what
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: my body was and relearn how things were going to
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: happen and how I was going to be able to
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: do things. Yeah, I want to get into that heavy,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: but I'm still tripping out about delusion of reprieve. The term.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Have you ever read Incident at Owl Creek or an
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Occurrence at Owl Creek? Familiar with the book? I have
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: not read it. It's a so it's a it's set
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: during the Civil War and a man gets captured and
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: they go to hang him by throwing him off a
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: bridge with a noose around his neck, and like the
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: rope snaps, okay, and he lands in the river and
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: lives out this whole existence of making it back home,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: reuniting with his wife. But then and they end like
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the rope didn't break, and he had this long in
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the time it took him to be thrown from the
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: bridge and to meet the end of the rope, he
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: had this long delusion of reprieve. And I think it's
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: called an occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge or something like that.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It's a good story. I never heard thatternal delusion of reprieve. Yeah,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: so you wake up in the hospital and how like
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: how many days or weeks go by before you are
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: kind of like, Okay, here's where I am, this is
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: what's going on. This is my new reality. You know.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I've always thought that for me, for whether it happened
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: or not, I think I think my mind then I
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: knew what was happening and had dealt with some stuff
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: before I was consciously aware of it. So so I
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: do remember that, you know, the day I found out everything,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you know, which the rest of the day was pretty
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: much a blur. And I remember then, you know, going
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: back to bed. I was up in a wheelchair when
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: they when I discovered everything, and I remember going back
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: to bed. Yeah, it was like a hospital wheelchair, you know.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: They had me laid laid back in it and I
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: was propped, you know, And were they anticipating that you'd
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: wake up? They didn't know. They didn't know actually what
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: what to expect um it was. So I was at
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: a place called Craig Hospital, which is a rehabsent big one,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: a good one, neuro rehab. Second floor's head injury, third
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: floor's final cord injury. Obviously I had both some level
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of head injury as well as the spinal cord injury.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: It was Labor Day weekend that I woke up, and
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I know that my dad told me, uh he the doctor.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: My doctor was having a conversation with my dad. I
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: was on third floor. My end was he was explaining
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: to my dad we might have Chris in the wrong place.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: We don't know what we can do for him, and
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: he was thinking they better move me downstairs, which my
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: mom didn't want, my dad didn't want, as they wanted
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: to hold onto the hope, right yeah. Yeah, so, um,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: they didn't know what to expect. And so yeah, that
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: doctor told my parents or whatever that he was going
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: to be gone for the long weekend and when he
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: got back, if there wasn't significant change, I was going downstairs.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: And when he got back, I was a totally different person.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: You must I took it as a threat to overheard
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: the conversation. Yeah, so did you? Then you had to
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: have entered into some kind of horrible depression, right, Um, well,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: and that's that's kind of what I was saying that
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I think my mind dealt with a lot of it.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: And and so I remember that day when I got
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: back in into bed and stuff and for the first
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: time was alone, because it's you know, it's a commotion.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: You get nurses and aids doing, you know, in the room,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and and my dad was there that weekend, you know.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: So when I was finally alone, I think it's when
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: it emotionally hit me, you know. And yeah, there were
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: some real hard hard minutes for a while, but minutes. Yeah,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: it passed pretty quickly. That doesn't mean I was suddenly
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: like jolly and glad things had happened and everything was
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: going to be okay. No, I had a lot of concern,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of worry. But I guess to ask you
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a question, No, I didn't experience any long term or
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: serious depression. Yeah, and I don't. I mean, I don't
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: say that in a way that I take credit for it.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I think I think my mind, you know, worked on
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: it when I didn't know what I was doing. So
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that's a case by case basis, right. Yeah, yeah,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: were you? Were you a person that that dealt well
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: with adversity through your whole life? Do you feel like?
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I think so? But I also don't feel like I
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: had a lot of it. You know, I had a
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: pretty good child growing up, So you weren't forged by
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: fire at that point, I don't think so. How okay,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: As you are coming to where you're I'm trying to
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: get out something like that, it's hard to articulate. So
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: there's probably all the immediate practical stuff like how am
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I going to come? Like? How am I gonna move?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Around where where am I going to live? Um? What
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: is life gonna look like? Okay, so you're dealing with
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: always like, very immediate practical concerns, and I want you
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: to touch on that in terms of how far into
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: this journey did you have to get before you're like,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: and now I want to begin solving the question of
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: how am I going to enjoy being alive? Okay? So
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: how far into this worry before you thought, like, you
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: know what I used to like to be in the
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: out of doors. Let's start solving for this. Was that
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: a thing that took years or months? It all kind
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: of happened at the same time. And and I think
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: I was real fortunate to be able to go to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Craig Hospital and they have a fabulous therapeutic recreation program,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: which I mean before this I had no idea what
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: those terms even meant together. But Craig was constantly doing
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: things for their Therapeutical Therapeutic Rack or t R. You know,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: they had outings booked and you know, sometimes it was
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: just going to the mall, you know, going out to
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: eat or whatever. They had several season tickets to the
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Broncos and later on to the Rockies, and you know
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to the avalanche and um, then uh, so they're really
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: quick to introduce the idea that you will still enjoy
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: being alive. Oh, absolutely yeah, And and they've got a
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: fabulous team of people. Um, the Rocky Mountain Arsenal is
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: just not far from Craig And so there's Peter guy
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: that we were talking about earlier, Peter Poles. He and
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: a bunch of his buddies worked at the Rocky Mountain
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Arsenal and made this fabulous bass fishery and it's got
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: wooden walkways and whatever. So they regularly are taking people
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: from Craig Hospital two places like that too, go fishing.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: And they've got adaptive gun mounts and things like that
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: take people to go shooting. Um so how could like
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: what do you mean, how could you take someone to
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: go well, like, how could they take someone to go fishing?
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: They Uh, they had several buses, shuttle type buses that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: belonged to Craig Hospital and they post on the wall
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that hey, we're gonna have an outing to the fishery
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: and you know, anybody that wants to go can come.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: If you're a patient that wants to go, you know,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: they say, well you could take two people with you
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: chosen companions, friends or family members, and you just they
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: have it scheduled on the date you sign up for it,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: and they work with you in advance to figure out
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: what your functional ability is and what your adaptive needs are.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Set you up with a fishing rig and do you
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: go fishing? How long were you living in this in
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: this place five months from September through December? So you
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: were almost um getting that like in the in the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: part of recovery, you're you're almost you're like focusing more
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: on just like trying to live and enjoy life. Almost
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: before you've solved a lot of those practical things that
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I was talking about. Yeah, And I don't think, in
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: my opinion at least, I did not solve the practical
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: things by the time I left rehab. So I went
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: home like thinking, well, here I go think or swim
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: m and and so I hadn't answered all those questions.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: But um, there was a particular day, um, and I
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: didn't go on any fishing outings with them while I
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: was there, and I did not go on any shooting outings.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I was down in t wreck one day massing around
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: and discovered this one guy was like, Hey, don't you
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: like to have shoot and whatever? And I said yeah,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and he said, here, let me show you this. And
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: he showed me the paperwork, the schematics from this high,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: high level adaptive gun mount that this guy from Bob
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Bowen from Shadtern, Nebraska had developed. And Bob boys ended
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: up a high level quarter polegic and he was a
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: firearms dealer and very very active sports shooter and hunter
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: and etcetera. And then when he had his injury, he
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and his buddy set together, set out together and built
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: this adaptive gun mount and so um, and he made
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: it available to people. You could purchase one, yeah, and
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: into the hospital right, And I was for the first time.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, I had a great time do anything I
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: did with TRAQ, any of the stuff we did was
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: great for me, great for other people, and really helped
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: me understand that life still happens. But when I saw
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: that gun mount, it hit me. I was like, there's
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: something that I do, you know, way better than hanging
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: out at them all. So I thought, someday I'm gonna
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: get one of those. And so my first birthday after
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I left re rehab Um, a friend of mine, an
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: old duck hunting, but he bought me one of those
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: gun mounts. Can you explain the gun mount, like what
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: it mounts to, how it functions? Sure? Um, the one
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: that I'm talking about that I first discovered and and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: first had, they called it the Sour seventies seven. It's
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: so imagine there's two pieces of aluminum I being basically,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: one going front to back and one side to side.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: And on top of that, right on top of that
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: running one running along each I being is a piece
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: of all thread running out to the ends. And then
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: on the end of that all thread was a windshield
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: white promoter hooked to each one. And then the windshield
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: white promoters were operated by a joystick which is mounted
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: on the gun mount, and then you put it in
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: a place where the user can move it. So for me,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: it was right at my chin, so I would The
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: rifle is cut off at the pistol grim. It's got
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: no butt, and it mounts on top of this gun mount,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: which attaches to my wheelchair and sits over my lap basically,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: And so I leaned my head forward and look through
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the scope just like anybody, and then move this joystick
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: left and right, which end up and down, which turns
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: the winch, a wiper motor turns the all thread which
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: makes the rifle aim left right and up and down.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: And then it's got a little tube, you know, a
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: little plastic straw that's hooked up to They call it
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: a breath toubactuator, which turns your breath into an electrical signal,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: and that's hooked up to a solenoid and that's sole
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: annoid is attached to the trigger. So when I sip
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: in this tube, it jerks that solenoid, which fires the rifle.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: It was pretty actually actually quite ingenious and rudimenter at
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: the same time, and it worked. It worked. I shot
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: a quote a few animals with that. So you get this,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: you get this adapter, and you get it rigged up,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: and how do you even begin, Like like you go
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: out to a rifle range. Yeah, yep, went out to
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: a rifle range and shot at a few times and yeah,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of times and got it sighted in and
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: so it was working. So I had the tools, but
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I really had no idea how the process was gonna work, Like,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: how is this going to happen? You know what I mean?
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, how's it gonna happen? That I'm actually gonna
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: go out and hunt, that I can actually shoot something. Yeah,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and um, it's so and marriage with me my girlfriend
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and so um married from a big hunting, hunting family
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: and her brother at that time was ranching in the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Elkhorn Mountains just east Helena Yelk in the yellow Corn.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah and so yeah, we were hunting with Tim and
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: that's marriage. Brother, How explain it to me? Well, the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: first time hunting from a van and just driving up
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: and down the dirt roads looking for deer, looking for whatever,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: which would uh, we might as well get to this.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Let's get to this now because there is obvious question,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: there's legal implications here, right. So, and in most states,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: the Wildlife Management Agency UM has permits that enable people
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: with disabilities to do certain things. So like in Montana,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Fish Wallypon Parks has what they call a permit to
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: hunt from a vehicle pdh f B And you have
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: to meet certain uh physical criteria limitations and if you
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: meet those and it's all very formal, uh in Montana,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: coote aditated. If you meet those conditions, they then give
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: you this permit which allows you to shoot from a vehicle.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Now you still have the same restrictions. You don't shoot
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: across a roadway, you don't shoot off up paved road, etcetera.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: But if I'm in a field in a van and
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: somebody opens the door, I can shoot out of it legally.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Was it hard to be successful? Like did you Did
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: it take a long time to figure this out? Um? No,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: it happened pretty quickly, like super lucky. Um. I remember
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: you said, you know and one of your shows, I've
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: watched the meet here a couple of times, and you
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and Ryan Callenham We're hunting mild deer on public ground
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: in Idaho and shot a really nice nearly and you
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: guys were sitting there chat and you said, you know,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: that's saying when people say you should have been here yesterday,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: and you said, we were here yesterday, today is yesterday.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And I was like, that's what my experience has been.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, luck, whatever you call it it, it's just
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: kind of worked out that way. Doesn't mean that I
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: go home empty handed, just like everybody. And I'm glad
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: about that. But um yeah, I mean I would say,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: hunted with Tim probably three times and ended up shooting
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: um at four point new there. That was the first animal,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I should from my chair? Did it? Did it ever?
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Did you ever wrestle with it internally or did anyone
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: else ever articulate to you the idea that like like
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: why like why do you want to go do this?
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Like this is something for other people? And now you're
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: sort of not not that you're not not that you're
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: not eligible, but for some reason, like why go through
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: all the halfs because the experience won't be what it was? Right?
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: So why not just like focus on other things? Did
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: you ever have any doubt like it's gonna be? So
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm trying to say, is that that you're
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: looking at you like my experience of it in the past,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: that you're walking around, you're doing all these things, that
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you're dragging the deer whatever it is. Um, so much
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: of that will be different now that maybe it's not
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: the same thing, Like maybe it's like I'm not going
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: out to do the same activity anymore because I can
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: only capture certain portions of the activity now from what
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: you knew in the past. Um. Well, So to answer that,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, I do have that permit from a vehicle,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: but I do not like to hunt from a vehicle.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: And so I want to be on the ground. I
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: want to be in the midst of it as much
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: as I can. And and so I've been able to
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: keep it as authentic as possible, and I still feel
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: like I've been able to capture the essence of what
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: what much of it was before I used a chair
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: and afterward. And and so I guess I've never I've
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: looked at it like you know, anyone that haunts knows
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: there's challenges, and so I've just looked at my situation
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: as a different type of challenge, hunting and unimaginable things
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: come up. Um, And so it's just I like that
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: challenge of trying to find a way around it. And
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I guess ultimately, you know, you asked me when we
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: first started, at what point did I start to identify
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: as an outdoorsman? And so I guess I guess for me,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: being able to face those challenges and stuff gives me
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to really exercise my identity who I am.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: And you know, certainly there are because of limitations. Um,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: you know, like I would love to go on a
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: solo trip overnight and and be solely and completely responsible
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: for the outcome, whether that's judgment or skill or knowing
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: the right place. I like that idea, but it's also
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: not going to happen. And so for me, the communal aspect,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: small communal, but you know, the the opportunity two connect
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: and retain a bond with people that I spend time
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: in the outdoors is it's beyond value, you know. And
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: and on that note, so my buddy Dan packetty um,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: and he's the guy that I usually hunt with, and
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: he and Mary and I spent a lot of time
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: hunting together. And Dan's pretty hardcore, die hard hunter and
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: has you know, dedicated thousands of hours over the years
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: that give me and us together an opportunity. And Dan
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: was the guy that taught me how to team rope
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: and really got me into rodeo. I was a young kid,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: So you were friends with him way yeah, since I
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: was eleven. And and so you know, after my injury happened,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: there is some sense of losing connection with your friends
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: because things change. And so being able for for him
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: and I to be able to find a new way
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: to connect and pursue a mutual goal, it's a pretty
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: awesome thing. That's a good friend, right, Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: to be through that amount of changes with someone. Yeah,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: and like and and Mary, as I said, you know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: I mean to put in perspective, uh, three people hunting together.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: And you know, with my situation, you know, it doesn't
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: mean I'm jumping out of bed in the morning throwing
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: my own clothes on. You know, things take a while
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: and I need help with things. So there's many many
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: mornings where you know, Mary and I are awaken two
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: thirty three o'clock in the morning with a flashlight and
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: she's helping me get my clothes, you know. And then
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: but five thirty six o'clock Dan wakes up and starts
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: to slip things on. But we've already been at it, yeah,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: three hours or whatever, and so it's not gonna happen
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: with without Mary helping me, and and then obviously Dan
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: helping as he does. So I'm the trigger guy. Mary's
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: if you get her upper Dan's for safety guy. Yeah.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Safety something I want to talk about because earlier, before
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: before we started recording, you would talk a little about fishing.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I want to get it into that and
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: then get into like some obvious safety issues to come
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: up with being in the boat, for instance. But how
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: can you explain the equipment that allows you to fish? Sure? Um, similar,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: the controls are similar to that gun mount. And this
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: is all very very recently changed and for the better
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: and and is changing as we speak. But the first
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: equipment I used to be able to actually cast and
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: really in was an electrical device and you know, an
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: analog system, and the guys down at Craig designed it
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: and built it and um it worked also with a
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: sip hum puff tube and so I would I would
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: sip into it into this tube which would activate a
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: little spool that had a small rope on it that
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: was attached to uh, the base of the fishing rod.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: So as I'm sipping, the spool is tightening up that string,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: which cocks the rod back, which simultaneously is stretching a
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: spring that's attached to the front of the rod. This
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: headset is coming off. Um U, that's good, that'll work. Forward,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: there we go, thank you. So as the rods coming back,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the rope is the little rope twine is
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: tightening the rods coming back. Then the ng is stretching,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: and there's there's a device that they built two trigger
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: the um the bail to release the bail without letting
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: the line drop. So when it comes back to the
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: position the bail releases, I quit sipping, and that spring jerks,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: pulls the rod forward and casts and is pretty accurate.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: It it is. Um. The old system was basically everything
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: I described, but it was pretty limited, meaning it always
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: casted basically the same angle, the same distance, the same speed, etcetera.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: It's basically on and off right right, and so then
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: you know when that happens, like um to help you
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: place it, you know in the right hole or right
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: right on the eddy line or whatever. But you're not
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: controlling the distance of your cast. You're contining where you
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: are relative to where you want to wind up. So
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: the fisherman in that instance and the oarsmen are working together,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: and the oarsmen, you know, is trying to place the
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: boat so that the distance we both know the cast
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: is going to go and the angle of the boat
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: is going to help the fisherman time it enough to
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: drop drop it in the rights. Yeah. Yeah. And then
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: as I said, it's well, how does the process work
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: of so it's all visual, then you're observing it hit
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you and then how you reeling. Um, I let's see
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: I blow in that same tube which activates the reel,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: the motorized reel, and it starts to reel. But you know,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: you don't want to just reel straight in. You know
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: you're your spinner is going to go to the surface,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: and you know you're not gonna be fishing in the
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: right spot. So then you just kind of work it,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: and you know, gradually you get to understand the speed
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: of the reel and you're able to blow enough to
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: keep it off the bottom without pulling it to the top.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm watching the tip of the rod, and then
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: when something strikes it, then you know, then that system
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: that that I've just explained did not have a hooking action,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: So then it just meant reeling pretty much as fast
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: as I could. Yeah. Yeah, when you're I could see
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: this all fishing from the situation you described earlier, the
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: guys that made the bass fishery where they had wooden docks.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: But but you're saying that you're out in a boat, Yes,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: in a wheelchair in a boat on a river. Yes.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Is it like a foregone conclusion that if that boat
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: where to flip, that you drown? Um? Not really? Um, absolutely,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: there's inherent risk and by doing it, by how greening
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: to participate, you're taking that risk. But that's life. How
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: much is the wheelchair way mm hmm to fifty and
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: you're buckled in, I mean I am the strap and
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: you have a p fd on life jacket. Yeah. And
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: then you know, as Peter my buddy says, um, you
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: know he said, it's calculated risk. You do as much
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: as you can to minimize problems. And I hope that
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: something does happen, and it still may happen, but you've
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: done everything you can to prevent it. Do you when
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: it comes to like the calculating the risk? Are you
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: more now that you've been through so much? Are you
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: more cavalier about risk now? No? I'm actually more careful. Yeah,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: especially the older I get, things have slowed down a little. Well,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: I just I'm a little I'm just more careful. I'm
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: a little less willing two two do something that's made
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: be I don't want to say not sensible, but you
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: know that there that there is a greater risk if
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: you catch When you catch a fish, Let's say, do
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: you feel more um you're gonna catch a fish? Is it?
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Do you feel the excitement of catching a fish and
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: the satisfaction of catching the fish from the same perspective
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: that you would have felt it prior to your accident.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Or do you feel like I caught this fish and
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I'm quadriplegic or do both of those things happen at once?
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: I think they both happened at once. Um. But again
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: back to you know, me knowing that this stuff wouldn't
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: happen without other people, rather than me thinking I caught
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: this fish and I'm quartera plegic. I do you it
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: as we caught this bit? Yeah? You know when I
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: shoot a bowl elk, I don't feel for a moment
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: that I shot it, that I did it by myself.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: You know, we accomplished that. Yeah, we being um a
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: couple of things. I imagine like we being your immediate
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: group you sort of clan, you know, out in the hills,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: and then we being like some much bigger we of
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: people who have dedicated themselves. Is sort of establishing the
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: adaptive technology. Right. So are you not in a position
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: where you've been involved in in in sort of designing
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: or consulting or influencing these technologies. Yeah, um, a little bit,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: mostly because uh, the technology is not happening at big companies. Yeah, yeah,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: well I think there's a market, but limited it. Probably
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: the research and development is not going to be paid
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: by the return on investment, So it comes from a
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: probably comes from a like a nonprofit. Yeah, and just
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: good people that are I guess muld say nonprofit Like
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: it's not from the perspective of man. If I could
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: build a rod that would be usable to a quadriplegics,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I'd make a killing, right, So some of these things
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: must get made, and they're made, like just handfuls of devices,
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: dozens of devices. Yeah. At what point, like because right
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: now you're coming so right now you're here talking to
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: us about this. At what point did you begin to think, um,
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: about you'd overcome like these insurmountable difficulties and you found
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: a way to enjoy the things that you used to
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: enjoy and learn to enjoy new things that you hadn't
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: enjoyed before. At what point did you feel that you
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: had an obligation to come out and like tell other
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: people or help other people get through these things? Um?
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: I think I I think I felt it when it
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: when it first started happening, because I remember that that
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: dear the first year, I was saying I shot UM
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: with Mary and her brother, you know, and somebody called
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: the newspaper and was like, hey, this guy. So they
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: contacted me, we'd like to do a story. M hm.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't doing it for publicity. I wasn't
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: doing it to get my name in the paper. I
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: was doing it because of sheer enjoyment. You were already
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: doing it anyway before. Yeah, But I then at the
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: same time, I felt like I've been granted some pretty
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: amazing opportunities, and and by enjoying those opportunities, I feel
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: some inherent responsibility to to to share that in a
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: way that might help other people. Yeah, and have because
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: it seems to me like you're resilient and that you
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: didn't allow a long passage of time after your accident
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: where you just you know, gave up. Have Have you
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: found that um your case, like your personal journey or
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: situation is sort of an anomaly or or how you
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: find that you have you talked to other people who
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: have not been willing to or been reluctant to to
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: to like overcome all the you know, to overcome all
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the obstacles. I think sure there are just like any
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: other subset of a population that you know, there's people
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: that really really struggle and maybe don't get to the
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: point where they can start to enjoy life again. And
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: and I acknowledge that, but I but I think people
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: are human beings, are incredibly resilient and find ways to
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: do things. You know. It's funny because I never I
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: didn't know anything about disability before my experience, you know,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden I'm faced with it,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: and pretty soon you start to recognize that there are
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: people out there doing absolutely amazing things, amazing things that
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: seem totally impossible, and somehow they find a way. And
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: uh so, I don't know, I mean, are there I
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: guess I couldn't answer, are there more or less people
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: who do or do not find ways to do things?
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: I'm aware of a lot of them who have really
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: done some incredible things. Do you do you regard yourself
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: now as being um like involved in a sort of
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: is there sort of like an adaptive movement or an
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: adaptive community that that works to sort of create and
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: connect people with adaptive technologies so that they can you know,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: overcome disabilities. I mean, is there, like, is there a
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: place where people go for support on these issues or
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: is it just everybody is that kind of every man
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: for himself? No? No, I think what I've found is that, um,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: people find ways to connect. I don't know of any
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: specific adaptive network or whatever, but certainly with the Internet,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: people share information and how hey, how does this work
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: for you? Stuff? So there's a lot of benefit from
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: a peer perspective in that way. But but I also
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: feel that, um, there's a lot of programs conservation, hunting, fishing,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: any kind of outdoor programs that that have in some
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: way done their best to help give people opportunities. And
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned Fish Wilife and parks. Uh. You know,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: they in they initiated what they call They're crossing the
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: Barriers effort, which is their effort to make all their programs, facilities, etcetera,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: accessible to and usable by people with disabilities. And that
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: includes some of the permitting programs that they have and etcetera.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, just the big law, the big civil
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: rights law which prevented and was intended to prevent discrimination
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: by public and private entities, is the Americans with disabilities.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: So if you think about the fact that Fishwife and
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: parks uh uh, initiated. They're crossing the barriers before the
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: law happened requiring them to do that. That's that's pretty significant,
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: I think. And there's there's a lot of organizations out there.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: UM A huge one is it's the Safari Club International.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: I really didn't know anything about the Sparti Club International,
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: and UM I was nominated by a friend of mine,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Dr John Harlin, who's retired in Missoula, certain and a
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: member of the Safari Club, and he nominated me for
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: this award that SCI offers. UH. They give it out annually.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: It's called the Pathfinder Award, and the the winner of
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: the award has chosen because he or she has been
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: a hunter and experienced some life changing event that limits
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: that ability, but still been able to find ways to
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: pursue would pursue those activities, and then also you know,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: has contributed to others opportunities and that kind of thing.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: So Dr Harlan nominated me for this award, which means
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: a worldwide award, and I think typically they choose two
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: people a year. And I knew he was because I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: helped with the information for you know, the nomination or application,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: But I didn't think there was any chance, you know,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: so I win. I win the award in two thousand eleven,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: so SCI flies me to Vegas for their annual convention
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: and they have a banquet, the Pathfinder Award banquet, and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: so that's where I received the award. The prize for
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: having won the award is an all expense paid trip
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: for me and a companion in Africa for twelve days,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: including all all hunting expenses and food, lodging, airfare, taxidermy,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: and shipping of any trophies back to my That's pretty unbelievable.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: And and it just so happens that the the guide
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: the professional hunters that I was matched with, Uh, the
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: guy started his name. I'll probably say it wrong, but
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: yeahn Lafa and so super great guy. I met him
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: in Vegas. Then we went and spent two weeks with him,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: and so I was talking to him about the history
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: about of this, how did the path b Under Award
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: come about? How you know, et cetera. And it turns
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: out that I think in the nineties, UM, a guy
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: who was a hunter and real involved and stuff had
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: experienced uh, significant injury. And I was really having a
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: hard time. So a couple of guys yawn and some
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: other guy. UM got together and chatted about it, said
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: what can we do to really help this guy out?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: So they awarded the first path Bunder award to that
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: guy and took a monit trip. You know, that's pretty amazing.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: And I the Safari Club in and National does that
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: kind of thing in its local chapters all the time.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: So I have personally with the Western Montana chapter I
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: participated in. I've been there on two haunts where young
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: boys with disabilities we're able to haunt elk and both
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: were successful. The only reason I was there because I
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: have a four world right vand with a lift, So
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: I was just helping them get where they needed to be.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's and and so I guess sorry for
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: my deviation. Whole point is, um, you know, there's lots
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of programs and organizations that that
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: like being involved in this kind of thing and that
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: see the reward that happens. And so UM, I I
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: guess there's not an adaptive network, but there are there.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: There are people and organizations out there that facilitate the process.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Do you have a thing you say or would like
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: to say when you meet people who are trying to
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: overcome these kind of you know, these like severe adversity,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: these adversities in life, like like do you have coart
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: of like a stump speech you give the people who
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: feel like there's no way to go forward, and it's
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: coming from someone who's been there, you know. Um, I
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: guess not the specific language, but two messages that I
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: hope that I share because because they're they're things that
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: have helped me, And the first one is they're kind
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: of related. But the first is and not lose hope,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, if you lose hope, you might
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: as well hang it up. You know that things will
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: get better, things do get better, things get easier, more enjoyable.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: And then just generally to not lose hope in a
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: belief in possibility because I think if if a person's
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: able to envision that that's something they want to do
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: can happen and maybe will happen, even if they don't
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: know how it will, I think that keeps them moving
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: forward and towards finding a way. Have you had a
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: problem keeping your own advice? At times you fall into
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: you're falling the moments of bitterness through Are they frequent? No? No?
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: Are they long lasting when they come. No, is it
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: fair to say bitter like? What's it feel like? UM?
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: I would say discouraged, discouraged? Yeah, yeah, I don't think
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: I've ever been better, but certainly discouraged. And fortunately they're
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: not long lasting. Man, I really want to thank you
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: for come and take the time to talk to us. Yeah,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: thank you guys for do you have anything you want?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: Things you'd like to add that we didn't get a
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: chance to talk about. UM. Now, I was I was
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: thinking as we're driving over here, you know, because I
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: know you usually ask questions like that at the end,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: and and so, UM my thought would be, you know,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: speaking to any organizations out there or people who who
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: find some level of whatever joy satisfaction. Um in seeing
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: people who have limitations be able to pursue these activities
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: would encourage people to to please help support those opportunities. Um. However,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: they can get involved with a conservation group, get involved
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: with those boarding groups or whatever, and they're not difficult
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: to find, you know, and and maybe you can be
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: an instrument to to help somebody face what is otherwise
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: a pretty insurmountable barrier. So I guess that's the first thing.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: And um, and then secondly kind of alan the same lines.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: If if there are individuals who or maybe end up
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: listening and think, you know, yeah, but I don't you
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: know that that couldn't happen for me. Yeah, I can,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: you know, and and I'm I'm so fortunate that I've
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: had the social support and the people around me too
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: to encourage me to do things, you know, and so
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: up a person doesn't have those people. Let's say if
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: I was plucked out of my regular everyday life and
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: dropped into a new location where I didn't know anybody,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: and I had to figure out, how can I do
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: this if if I want to, you know, don't be
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: afraid to knock on doors, don't be afraid to find
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: out who the groups are around that, what they do,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: what can you do to offer them? And you know,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: so I guess that will just hopefully lead to opportunities. Yeah. Well,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I just like to point out that, like we kind
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: of breezed over Chris's very very like lustrous hunting career,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: and it sounds like he shot like from what we
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: heard in the last hour, like a deer and elk,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: but from talking on the telephone, I mean, you've now
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: killed like you're saying dozens of l dozens of deer,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: and you're even shooting ducks now right, I read in
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: an article where you're trying working on it. Yeah, like
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: wing shooting. I did. I did wing shoot one duck
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: which may have been lucked. But you know, they usually
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: they usually land into the wind. They usually come in
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: about the same altitude or same level above the ground.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: So if I'm aiming in the right direction and it's
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: a safe direction, and I know, you know, uh, reasonable
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: distance to shoot, and adult happens to enter that area,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: then I think it's reasonable to take a shot. Yeah.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: How many days would you say now like this coming
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: up fall? Like what do you have plann or like,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: how many days do you think you'll spend out and about? Um? Well,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: since I'm planning to draw a bull, moose per man um, No,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: I'll probably spend between hopefully ana dear elk, maybe a moose. Um,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: I'll probably spend twelve fifteen days in the field, you know,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: something like that, more than the average hunter is going
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: to spend in the field. Yeah, that puts you in
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: top tier. I puts you in top to your days
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: in the field out top tier outdoorsman. And I would
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: say some years it's a lot less like like anybody,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: you know, either life gets in a way or you
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: get you were there yesterday the first time you go out.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: But no, I I yeah, I just I'm enjoying. And
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: what's the next piece of equipment that you're thinking like,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: this would be cool? I should or we should start
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: working on this too, you know, help you do something
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: that you feel like maybe he's out of reach, but
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: you're thinking about it. Well, it's it's being perfected right now.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: The guys down at Craig Hospital have been working on
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: that fishing system we talked about, which is analog. They've
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: now got that all converted to digital, which gives it
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: more capabilities. I can set a hook, I can adjust
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: the angle of the cast um and let's see what
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: else the distance of cast and so uh and I've
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: I've used the prototype well in the yard, you know,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: with Peter. Peter had it, My buddy Peter had it
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: plugged into a laptop and so he and I were
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: just casting it together. I was casting it, he was
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: making adjustments and stuff. And they're perfecting it right now.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I really want to use that device. And
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: then uh, they're going to use that same technology to
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: further improved a rifle mount. So I would be I'd
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: really like to try that is the Is some of
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: the equipment prohibitively expensive? Yes, yes it is um but
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: some of the people who make it, because they know
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: they're not making money, are very generous with it. Generous
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: to make and then generous to get into people's hands. Basically, yeah,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: for what it costs them to build it, sometimes less
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: if they can get some of the parts donated or
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: otherwise acquire them. Yeah. Uh, these guys sound likes are
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: pretty amazing guys there, they're they're amazing. And I know,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: you know we're talking earlier. You guys are gonna be
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: spending more time in Bozeman. Oh, it's strongly encourage you
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: to go check these guys out on fish Hatchery Road.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: Well it's Barney Road, I think the road that goes
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: to the Barney Bridge by Nathan. A while from the bridge,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: they have their camp. It's called Camp bull Wheel because
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: there's a big actual bull wheel still sitting in the
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: yard from Nies or something. And yeah, these you guys
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: are going to be doing some pretty cool stuff. I mean,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: like making adaptive technologies available to people that need them. Yeah. Oh,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: and there's so many people contribute into the to the project,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: you know, volunteer guides, volunteer shuttlers. One guy, um he's
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: planning to come bursting that I think maybe from Indiana.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: He's gonna be here for the whole summer. His jobs
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: to cook. Um so. And there's running river trips with
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: people wheelchairs and fishing. Yeah, people in wheelchairs or other
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: limitations that might not be wheelchair but yeah. Yeah, what's
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: this organization called again Camp Bowl wheel and then the
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: Again the hospital that's done a lot of the Craig
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: Hospital and they do a lot of they've helped develop
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of adaptive technology. Yeah. That's good for people
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: to look up and check out the thing. Yeah, that's
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: good stuff, right man. Well, thank you, yeah, thank you
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: guys for joining us. Appreciate you taking all the time.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: I know you have a long drive. It'll be a
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: good drive though, stay out there. Yeah you've seen some
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: wildlife I think. Yeah, alright, Chris Chris Clasby, Thanks Chris,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: thank you, thank you guys. Man By