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Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: How to Step Into Your Power (Even When You Don’t Feel Ready) · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they faced, and how they've overcome them to find their own versions of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: No way! Money, struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Think of this as coffee with your mates and mixed with an inspiring TED talk, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Search their website at investingwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time flexible job opportunity.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the show.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to um almost we're almost at the end of our momentum cover sessions.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you so much to everybody that hasn't joined us or is joining us throughout this series.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have got a brilliant panel, and we're going to be talking all about how um to overcome incompassive syndrome as these amazing women have overcome.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've got the brilliant Gifty Enwright, who's going to be hosting the session, who's going to be um leading our panel, going to be asking them their questions.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: We've got the lovely Helen She and Alex Morgan, and we've also hopefully got um Carol joining us as well.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm going to be ducking out shortly.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but before we start, I don't know if Gifty, you want to let everybody introduce themselves and then I will duck out.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, hello everybody.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I will basically ask the panelists to introduce themselves.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about imposter syndrome, which is something I'm passionate about, and I can talk about other house come home.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: So my first question to the panelists basically is to tell us about themselves and give us one instance of imposter syndrome for themselves.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I am going to start with you, Helen.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I'm gonna duck out and then I'll look out for Carol as well joining us.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, so I'm Helen Shute, I'm a non-executive director and I'm a coach and mentor.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: I work with people uh to overcome barriers like imposter syndrome, uh, become leaders or better leaders as well.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: My background is across the private, public, and charity sectors, um, from everything from boy racers through to stately homes and drugs.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And my last few roles are as a CEO.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the background that I bring from working my way up.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I suffer from imposter syndrome all the time, including just being on this panel.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so you will see that playing out in real time.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think the time I felt most out of my death, I led the primary care response to COVID across Oxford here, uh, where we were making real sort of life and death decisions in unprecedented circumstances.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm nothing useful.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: My background is as a bureaucrat, not as a medic.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that that really did put me in quite an awkward position alongside people who at least knew what they were doing in that space.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, all right.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for that, and thank you for telling us that even um being on here to you was imposter syndrome.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'll come back to that and other bit deeper into that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: But Alex, please tell us about yourself, what you do, who you are, what you do, and your imposter syndrome moment, as it were, in your career.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: Hi everyone, I'm Alex.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: So um I have a background in higher education, I was head of international relations and partnerships, and now I host a podcast called Mambition, which is um a combination of the words motherhood and ambition, and I talk to uh lots of women about their career journeys post-motherhood.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: So that's something I'm super passionate about.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: I also have my own business, I'm self-employed now and I do coaching and consultancy.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: In terms of imposter syndrome, I have ADHD and suffered with um imposter syndrome a lot, particularly as a teenager, but I felt like I'd done a really good job of overcoming that until I returned to the workplace after maternity leave.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I was out of the workplace for 18 months and uh due to my son being ill, and I returned to a fairly non-supportive environment, and my imposter syndrome was off the charts.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: I second guessed myself, I doubted everything, um, I didn't want to share my opinion, I didn't want people to share my work with people, um, and it took quite a long time to get back over that as well.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I would say as well, starting a podcast, I had huge imposter syndrome over why would people come on my podcast?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and how would I interview people?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: But very nicely, people, including Gifty and Liz, have both been on my podcast.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: So thanks for that.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and thanks for inviting me.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a blast with you and Tiffany when I was on there, so yeah, everybody go listen to that podcast.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Carol, please tell us about us, who you are, what you do, and the moment of imposter syndrome in your career.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, my name is Carol.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I don't do anything at the moment, I do mentor and support other black professionals.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at an age where I can retire or semi-retire.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so and I also, whenever opportunities come, I grab it, so to speak, just to keep myself current and in touch.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: My greatest imposter syndrome was when I landed a regional role.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: I won't mention the organization, and um, because of the micro-aggressive bullying of my boss, I started to doubt my skills, even though I had a very strong interview outcome and uh got had a really positive um relationship with the partners.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: But um it just highlighted to me how if you're not aligned with your line manager, um, how you can start to internalize that and start to doubt yourself.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what's happened to me.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's taken me a long time to get away from the drama of that, particularly because the oppressor was a black male man, and as a black woman, it was really quite shocking to me having had positive experience with other black professionals.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so uh what you said is you're not doing anything at the moment, which is interesting, but can you tell us in terms of what your profession, what you did in the past?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm I'm one of those chameleons.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: I actually was born here but went to Canada and did family therapy in Canada as a with a multi-agency team.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I worked with traumatized families.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: I then came back to England where I was born and had to rejuvenate myself, so to speak.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I've done women's development, I've done regeneration, um, I've done project management, I was a Shore Start program manager and also a district children's centre manager.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I um part of the survival kit, which we'll talk about, is really being able to look at your transferable skills and jump.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, okay, all right.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I'm going to come to you, Helen.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um so people assume that if you are successful, you're naturally confident.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So can you please give us a moment where you genuinely question whether you belong?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um my first graduate job, which was quite an introduction to the workplace.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to um All Women's School and All Women's College back when that was a thing.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I landed my first graduate job uh in Halfords, um, which obviously is probably not terribly um female associated, but sort of worse than that, I was on the boy racer brand.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I was surrounded by a whole male team, kind of sort of entirely male customer base, uh, and people who had a very different lifestyle and choices to sort of what I'd I'd sort of come from.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and their frame of reference was very different.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So they were not expecting the, and I quote Poshbird, uh, to turn up and talk to them about how to pinch their ride.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because the women sort of in that sphere were basically their girlfriends.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you didn't know that there are top shelf car magazines, they exist.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're exactly what you might think was on the top shelf, and that was what they were expecting from me uh when I was trying to do a very professional job.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean there were so many different sort of aspects there of kind of wondering how I had landed in this space, particularly because it was the time when Halford's was owned by Boots, and I really thought I was going to be doing perfume and makeup.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, it was it was a challenging moment.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So looking back to that moment, what do you think was actually happening with the situation?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Was it lack of capability or was it something else?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it was my first job, I was learning, so I was naturally going to be out of my debts.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what nobody had said to me at that point is um product management is product management, you need to transfer your skills across a variety of different things and across your career, um, you you will encounter all sorts of different um personalities and people who you need to work with, and that you need to learn to adapt, a bit like Sword Carroll said, being a chameleon.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was being influenced by the external perceptions of who I thought people wanted or needed me to be, uh, and that was that was sort of really important.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what helped me was recognising the external validation of why I was there.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I had I had been through quite a rigorous process to get that job.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had been selected to go into that team for whatever they saw in the interview.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um once people started to talk to me about it's all the same skills, you just go out there and you learn, and being thrown into the sort of out of the throwing pan into the fire was was uh really sort of beneficial actually in terms of building some of that confidence and some of the things that others on the graduate scheme who were within their comfort zone didn't need to do.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's not to say they weren't tricky moments, but I had a really good boss who helped me through it, um, who actually also wasn't an aging boy racer, he was a corporate fruit, so um it was quite nice to be able to model some of his behaviour as well.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: That was great, that was great.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So coming to you, Alex then.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to imposter syndrome, do you think it's an internal thing or it's a reaction to external factors like you know, bias, exclusion, or being real cause of the wheel?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: I definitely think it's a bit of both.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that some of it comes from those stories that either we tell ourselves or things that we've been told by teachers or parents or other people in the past.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I think we can bring a lot of stuff with us.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you but I think again, going back to the fact that I have ADHD, I didn't have the greatest time at school, as you can imagine.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I had a lot of stuff like Alex talks too much.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: Alex needs to concentrate, um, Alex needs to give her full attention.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: And those were things that I sort of blamed myself for and carried with me for a long, long time, and sort of it was the story I told myself.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what I have done with that though is eventually turn that into Alex talks too much.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: So Alex has started a podcast, um, which is you know, it's been a nice way to turn that round.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think as well, sometimes it's that internal story, and sometimes, like Carol says, it is the situation that you're in of either being the only person like you in a particular room and feeling unsafe to speak up, to share your opinion, or sometimes you are actively being undermined by people, which then plays into that space of feeling like an imposter because of how it chips away at your confidence.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it can be that structural piece, but I think as well, we carry stuff with us, and sometimes it's about telling ourselves a different story of the one we've been told.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's interesting because for me, I mean, it's another reason why I left Walker, I couldn't hack it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because I'm a very straightforward person, I'm very direct, and the things we call play, and you're sitting there thinking it's a me, is it them and it's exhausting.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So uh for you, then same with you, Alex, how does imposter syndrome show up for you?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: How do you behave?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you stop speaking?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Do you go find a room to hide?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: What happens?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, anyone who knows me will I think would say that I am not a person who's shy of sharing my opinion.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: I can talk a lot, I'm usually fairly confident, but when imposter syndrome shows up, I don't want to express my opinion.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: I really felt like I, you know, when I'd gone back from maternity leave, I just absolutely did not want to put myself out there.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_04: I felt like I was being judged with everything that I said, and so I just clammed up.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I think as well, I really start to second guess myself.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_04: So something that I would usually be confident about doing or sharing with other people.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: I want to keep it to myself.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_04: I almost, you know, get very worried about sharing a piece of work, sharing the finished version, because I'm afraid of the feedback that I might get.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but really, it's not because the work's bad, it's because I'm scared of what the reaction might be from the other person or just doubting myself completely.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: So um, when it comes to your podcast, because I've been on that before, uh, for me, it just means seamless.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Why you looked like the consummate pro.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so, have you ever let imposter syndrome stop you from doing something that you wanted to do?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because it would have been a shame if you'd let it stop your podcast, but have you let it stop you?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I have definitely.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: So, after I'd returned from maternity leave, there was a job I really, really wanted to apply for and didn't, and somebody got the job who I realized afterwards was much less qualified, and um, you know, I'd done the typical thing that women do of not having all of the criteria, not but I wasn't far short of it, and I let that stop me from putting in an application, and somebody else got the job less qualified, and it it really taught me a pretty valuable lesson about there's nothing to be lost by actually just putting in that application.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: If if you don't get it, you weren't going to get it anyway by not applying.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: And similarly, with the podcast, we procrastin we did a lot of um, I guess you would call it the kind of procrastination you do to make yourself feel busy and feel like you're achieving something, but actually, you're just delaying the inevitable.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: So we decided we wanted to do a podcast, and we did a lot of planning and a lot of talking about it, and then in the end, my co-host Tiffany said to me, We're just recording this afternoon, we're just gonna do it, we're gonna record, and we did it before we were ready, and we were nervous about it, we were nervous about interviewing people, but we just you sometimes you have to feel the fear and do it anyway.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, coming to you then, uh Carol, because this bit here, I think I want to delve into a bit more for everybody.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: For you, do you also think that imposter signal is an internal thing or just external factors like race bias behavior?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with Alex that it's um it can be both depending, and sometimes it's parallel.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're you know, I was I was thinking about this uh you know parallelogram uh model in terms of you know, you're trying to fake it that you're competent, but in there's a little voice in the back of your head saying, What are you doing?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: You don't deserve that job, and it's that constant battle with that little voice in the back of your head.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: And also I was reflecting on uh family trauma and the messages that you've gotten in your early years that builds up uh a certain core of who you are, and you know, I I really delved deeply into my own African Caribbean background and uh a very traumatic and almost toxic environment where there's favoritism, and if you're not the favorite child, it can stack a lot of psychological uh second guessing of yourself, and you may be bright, but don't think you're bright because nobody's ever told you you're bright or capable.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, my whole life I've had to fight with this little psychological warfare in my head about am I worthy, am I beautiful, am I whatever?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: And all of that contributes to your confidence, how you show up both personally and professionally.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so for me, it can be internal and external, um, and how you know finding strategies to cope with that and to build your self-esteem.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it for me, because I'm at the end chapter of my career in life, uh, it's you know, and when I look at Maslow in terms of self-actualization at the top, etc., I you know, I'm doing a lot of focusing on am I happy with myself, am I happy with what I've achieved?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Could I have achieved more?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: What were the challenges?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: What were the barriers?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Were they real?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Were they contrived?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Were they coming from family history, intergenerational trauma is a big thing for the black community, which can second guess you?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually picked up a book called Black and Great by Renee German, Germain, and it uh it's a basically tells you the story of 20 different black professionals across different um professional streams, really.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a really reflective tool in terms of validating my experience because gaslighting is a really big issue for people with imposter syndrome.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: We seem to be hypersensitive to when the door is being closed to us or we feel the door is being closed.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, because I know for people, different people shows up for people.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever let imposter syndrome stop you from going for something around the trick?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think I have in terms of because I find in this country you have to have specific qualifications for this specific jobs um and roles, whereas in Canada they talk a lot more about transferable skills.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it doesn't matter what the product is, as long as you understand the process and know how to drive the process, you can go anywhere.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: But over here, there's a real hang-up about specificity of qualifications, and that has uh stumped me at times where you know um I haven't applied for something because I haven't had, as Alex was saying, a specific thing on the person's specification, you know, and and then it sort of starts sliding into that process of second guessing yourself.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Will they find out that I'm an imposter?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, all of that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, I have um gone through that uh experience.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: All right, all right, so um I want to I want to come to you, Helen, uh, and again, because I wanted everybody to have us have this particular question.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: How does imposter syndrome show up for you?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a bit of the physical, so sort of heart racing and and kind of you know, it's like tunnel vision and and panicking, depending on how big the imposter syndrome is.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um there is uh I find when I'm just sort of facing into it and trying to, so if I'm being asked a question or I'm trying to do something, I will preface the question with an apology or a this might be a stupid question.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that thing that you don't see men doing, um which is very much kind of almost giving people permission to doubt you by kind of recognizing it in yourself.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not about being self effacing, it's it's almost it's that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Lack of confidence or the please don't judge me as being stupid.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I felt has found really useful is something Eleanor Roosevelt said, which I actually have on my desk, which is it's a rubber because that's how I felt it.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it says, No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, if I if I remember to not give people that permission and that power over me, that is really helpful in just so that's good.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good segue into a practical strategy for dealing with imposter syndrome.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got a thing on your desk to stop you from feeling inferior.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: What other strategies do you use when you start feeling that oh I don't belong on the inner person in this room, etc.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few things.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like Alex was saying, procrastination is a big thing, so just start.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, actually, once you get going, often you find it isn't as bad as you thought it was, but you just need to need to do that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my first boss said to me, Um, you know, get something 80% right and learn.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're gonna be perfect, so that's quite powerful.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and another boss said to me, Um, give yourself permission to fail.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Fail safely, like you know, don't do it dramatically, don't break the law or anything, but you're not going to learn unless you try.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, on things that are really big, it's how to eat an elephant.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, on on things like the the um COVID, we just have to break it up into smaller jobs, and that was a good way to get started, really.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and own your failure.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, actually, if you've given yourself permission to fail, don't then try and bury it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, go out there and sort of say, Yep, tried this, it wouldn't work.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're gonna do now.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's both individually and as a leader.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right, great, thank you.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, so Alex, give us some of your strategies.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: How how do you cope?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: How do you push through?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I thought actually, Helen, I love that quote, but I um I thought you were gonna say a different one because I think it's also Eleanor Roosevelt who said, Um, if you knew how much how little other people thought of you, you'd worry much less about what they think.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, she she had all the quotes going, didn't she?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, so I completely love that one as well.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_04: And there's another thing that is um, what other people think of me is not my business.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: So I try and remember those things.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I definitely agree with getting rid of the procrastination and just getting started.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: The thing will always seem scary if you don't try and do it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's always going to be this big elephant that you're carrying around with you that you can't get past.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_04: You have, and it'll still be scary when you do it, but pretty much anything I've tried to do, you always think afterwards, it wasn't that bad.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you really discover through doing it how competent you are.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_04: I think for me as well, I would say preparing for things.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, we've jumped on this call to talk about imposter syndrome.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: We have had a think about what we're gonna say before we come on, we're not just flying by the seat of our pants, but don't over-prepare.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: You you can get yourself into this mindset of more preparation, more preparation, more preparation that actually then doesn't serve you very well.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so prepare but don't over-prepare.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: And um remind yourself of previous successes, remind yourself of previous times that you have done scary things and again that it wasn't that bad when you did it.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I think for me it's all mental and then just making sure that you actually take the plunge and do it rather than thinking about it or talking about it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: I also wanted to mention for those in the call, if you have any questions, please have them in the chat and deal with them when we get to the QA side of it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to come to you, Carol.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: What are your strategies for um dealing with imposter syndrome?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the things is to really find somebody safe that you can talk to about your um your imposter syndrome feelings.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, with a clinical background that I've had, I had clinical supervision, which was really good.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I was able to talk about what I was going on with me whilst I was actually practicing or doing my role, and that was extremely helpful.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, and also developing a network of like-minded people who also can give you positive validation um when in your wobbly moments.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: And also, because I was trained in reflective practice across all of my professions, I journal, which helps me to externalize things, put it on paper and not live with it, and then I can come back and pick it apart and try and focus on um what Helen and Alex were saying on my successes and achievements, and also remembering that there's nothing called a failure, there's always a learning opportunity.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: So something didn't work, so what did you learn about it?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: And being clear about what you learned about it is really important, and also trying to flip my mental script, that voice in the back of my head, um, you know, trying to strengthen it to be more positive about who I am, what I've uh you know, what I've achieved, etc., and to become more.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: I know it sounds funny, but um, I was reading something and it was saying that we need to become more like men, you know, super confident even when they're not competent.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we need to have more of that mindset in terms of driving ourselves forward and developing our professional ego is really important.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I've been working on that even all um through my journey professionally and personally.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes uh being a bit more like a man, um, which is interesting.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I was just looking in the chat.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's Alyssa's supposed to do that, she didn't go for promotion, and then found out that she didn't go for promotion when she found out she's pregnant, and then someone else less qualified went for the job and working.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the way those are two ways uh uh we hold this back, and then somebody else was saying, I think they were agreeing with something that um let me see what it was they're saying.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we're new and learning, and we work so hard to try and prove ourselves, and it's easy to forget that we have been chosen for a reason.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: So even when you know we've been recruited uh in into the room, we're still there doubting ourselves, you know.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so talking about doubting ourselves, I want to come and touch on confidence.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because again, for that job interview people, particularly women, you know, you're waiting for that 100% match before you throw your hat into the ring.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: So is confidence something you should wait for, or is it something that develops?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to give you that question, Alex.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's definitely something you can develop.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think it's I think you can tell yourself the story of I'm not a confident person and let that hold you back.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: And um, when you uh when Carol was talking there about like having the the confidence of men, just made me think of the quote of have the confidence of a mediocre white man, which uh I quite like.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think it is that difference between men and women if men will go for stuff they're not qualified for, you know, 70% there, they'll they'll shoot off an application.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: I think you can build it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_04: I think I went through a lot of time of being a teenager where I would um I guess try and fit in where I would like the same things as other people to try and be more liked, but as I've grown older, I genuinely believe being yourself is really important.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: If you're pretending to be somebody else, then you're never gonna have that true confidence in yourself.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: So you have to get rid of that pretense for a start, but you can decide to do things that make you more confident.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, you sometimes meet people who are like, I'd never go out for a meal by myself, or or things like that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_04: You can build up that confidence in a quiet way of not doing really scary things, but just going and having that meal alone, go into the cinema.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_04: You want to go and do something, do it.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: You want to have a coffee with somebody, ask them for a coffee.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: The worst thing that they can say to you is no.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, maybe there are worse scenarios than that, but the likely scenario is they might say, Oh, I don't fancy it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, I'm from the Northeast, and we have a saying up here that is is shy burns getting out, and I think that does permeate the sort of northern spirit of the northeast.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_04: Of you just ask people when I wanted to start the podcast, I thought, who is likely to say yes to this?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_04: And my co-host Tiffany is a crazy out there person, and she said yes without even thinking and joined in.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's about you can make yourself have that confidence by just taking little steps towards it, challenging yourself.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: You've got to feel the fear and push yourself through it because that's the only way that you sort of build confidence, it's a muscle.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_04: So do a presentation at work when you don't really want to.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: I I think there are so many opportunities to build confidence, and it comes by doing, in my opinion.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Very good stuff.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, and it's good that you mentioned that confidence is a muscle because I think people forget that, you know, and you have to build these muscles, and it's a continuous right, it's work in progress, it's a continuous process.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, coming to you, Helen, what advice would you give someone who feels they're not ready for a promotion, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we're here now starting to go and get past our impossible and go for it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: What advice would you give for?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just apply.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So feel Alex's phrase, what's the worst that can happen?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually, on that spectrum, the worst that can happen is you learn, you get feedback, you get practice, um, you can then target your growth.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if there is a genuine gap, you have put yourself out there, you can ask for the help to find that, you can go and find those opportunities.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Best outcome, you get the role, you feel maybe you're not ready for it, but you can explore that during the application process.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, whenever I go into a job interview or for a new contract or actually talking to um clients, sort of I actually explore these are things I think I need help on, you know, these are the gaps that I have.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: How will you help me to actually in the interview show that you're open to people coming back to you as well?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if you're not it's the if you're you have to be in it to win it.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if you wait for yourself, and particularly compared probably to a lot of your male colleagues, they will be putting themselves out there regardless because that's just what they're trained to do.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I think that the only thing you can do is keep trying um and and look for support.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're not getting that support from your organization or your line manager, look at where else you can get it from.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I'm a fellow at the Institute of Leadership.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Members at the Institute of Leadership can get free mentoring.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm one of their mentors.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, you don't it you don't have to spend money to get support um if you're looking for the right things.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I when it comes to this for me is just the night you thing, just do it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Just do it, you never know.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like um Liz was saying in the chat, um, you know, she didn't go for a promotion, somebody less qualified got it, and you just sometimes you might be the only applicant, you just never know.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: So throw that hat in the ring.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I'm going to come to you, uh Carol.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Have you, you know, let's put our money where our mouth is here.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever applied for something that you thought you weren't qualified or suitable for the did it anyway?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think one of the because I've done so many different professions, each prep uh profession seems to have its own language or vocabulary.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things I do prior to interviews or is really learning a bit of the vocabulary so I can plop it into my uh discourse with the interviewees, which makes them feel as if I'm grounded in whatever specialism there is.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: So doing your homework around professional vocabularies or roles vocabulary is really important, and possibly talking to somebody that's already in a role like that, um, so that you know what to expect, and you're not that you're not going into an interview or into a role with any big surprise, which is why networking is really important.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, so you know that practical things like that has also been very, very helpful, um, and also being clear in line management um uh that in what you don't know, and then developing a learning program or a PDR professional development uh plan for yourself, and sometimes PDR that you have with your manager is not the same that you have for yourself personally because it's not everything that you should share, but um, that helps with building confidence and also resilience.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so um I would like to come to you, Helen.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I uh had an event recently, and I was speaking at the event, and one of the panelists said, you know, later on, you know, when he was speaking, that when he met me, the person he met was completely different from the speaker, right?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: When I started speaking, he thought it was completely different, and he, I don't know, took me to me some mouse or something.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then suddenly I'm on stage and was a different uh persona.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you think is the difference between healthy humility and impossible?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Confidence.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that um that sort of that healthy humility you still have confidence in yourself.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: You so you know, you you are whether that's coming from the external validation of of I'm here because I have expertise or background, or somebody's interviewed me and given me this job, um, versus sort of my own self-judgment around that kind of that that imposter syndrome piece.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it is we've talked about confidence to this point, it's actually about knowing that about yourself, but not not feeling the need to broadcast it all the time, not being the person who's out there going, I'm so great, but every time I meet everybody, I need to tell them it's that that internal piece is and I'm now going to do an imposter syndrome thing.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, so and this is the thing because as you as you're saying it, because for me, the feedback I took from that was hmm, I I need to work on my first impressions.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because he completely underestimated me.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: He never thought that I will be this person to come and own the stage.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, humility is important to me, and I think a lot of people confuse that humility when they're judging you in that five minutes or what however it's a few seconds when they're judging you.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and obviously it's got to be what you're comfortable with, but um, perhaps um, Alice, if you can speak to that as well, the difference between humility and imposter system.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Should we you know be practicing that humility and risk being underestimated, or should we be like the men or cajones in your face and annoy everybody?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you sit on that section?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's interesting because confidence in women is often seen as a negative by, you know, I think that we have to be conscious of how that's viewed in society.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: I am a relatively loud and confident person when you meet me in real life, but I don't think confidence has to be loud or in your face.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: I think that it's really what Helen's saying about that kind of internal self-assurance.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I tend to, and it's something we do on the podcast, be quite self-deprecating.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I but I think there is a difference between undermining yourself in that in when being self-deprecating, I tend to, you know, and I'm not gonna be imposter syndrome about this.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: I like to be funny, so I will be funny in my podcast and when I'm talking to people, and even on like when I post on LinkedIn, I like to do a funny post, but I think that that can lead to people underestimating the kind of serious stuff that I've got to say.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so but I think again, I'm a big advocate for being who you are and not hiding that, and I think that that I I know authenticity is a bit of a buzzword at the moment, but I think that true confidence does come from that authenticity, and I don't think you have to be humble.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when I was a child, my um my I was I was basically bigging myself up and saying how brilliantly I'd done something at school, and my grandparents sort of pulled me up about that and said that I like oh, you're really full of yourself, and my dad, I mean, maybe they didn't say it quite like that, but they basically implied that I was being a bit full of myself.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_04: And my dad stepped in and said, No, actually, she's done really well at this, she's got the right to be proud of herself, and I think that that's important.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it taught me a big lesson hearing him step in and be like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's fine for her to feel like that.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think there's a place for humility and it can be a good thing, but like you say, Gifty, you don't want to leave it to people to undermine you or like you have to be an advocate for yourself.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_04: You think you're the right person for something, put yourself forward, do it, and yeah, advocate for yourself, but be yourself.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, your dad has got a fan in the comments there.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody's saying, What a lovely dad.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and somebody saying, uh Maria is saying, I've been out of work for three months now, and imposter syndrome in a tough tough job market is quite um awe-consuming at the moment for her.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Which brings me to my next question.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm taking that to you, Carol.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: How do you handle criticism like the job market telling you something else without letting its reinforced self-doubt?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: I try to step up in my head or positionally in my mindset, I try and step away from my emotional self and try to take in the feedback in an objective way as best as is humanly possible.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: And also to be honest with myself, yeah, they've got a point there.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: I I certainly don't have that skill set or that knowledge, and I tend to make lists in terms of what I need to learn, um, and and actually, you know, take that on board.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I think self-honesty is really important, as Alex was saying, is just you know, there's a thing about bigging yourself up, but there's a thing about being dishonest and um not uh putting a hand up that yeah, you know, I'm not what um what I'm presenting.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and I know that when I was doing certain other roles, it's an old word perhaps, but being congruent, you know, so that um you know people are people know who you are, and and even if you lose a job or you you get pushed in an uncomfortable situation, you you're walking away with yourself intact with integrity, which then gives you the baseline and um to be resilient to make the next jump because you know that you haven't sold yourself out, you you know, you're consistent, and I I find that's helped me with developing really strong professional networks is that they can rely on me that I I'm consistent, you know, um, and I'm constantly saying, let's go and talk about it, let's go and read about it, let's go and whatever we need to do to build our toolkit.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: So developing a professional toolkit and adding stuff to it year on, year in uh is really important.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Great, all right, thanks for that.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm going to wrap up now as I'm going to I need a sentence from um all three of you.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if what would you say to somebody doubting themselves at the moment?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll start with you, Haley.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so my sentence is very short, so I might extend it uh into into slightly longer.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um why?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And by why I mean what are the reasons for that now?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Really think about that.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are they real and what could you do to overcome them?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we like Hawaii.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: We like our why.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're doubting yourself, um, the ladies that put in the chat about you know the job market and at the moment, so you're doubting yourself, start with the why are you doubting yourself?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: My same question to you, Alex.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, for me, it is pushing through, it's challenging yourself and um doing things that are going to put you out of your comfort zone because that's where the growth and the confidence comes from.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, when it comes to doing things and put you out of your comfort zone, again, like Alex, it does have to be something that's that's small, do you know?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know, going too bad in knowing your own or whatever.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the risk is not too high, and just doing it anyway.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, Carol, what would you say to somebody doubting themselves at the moment?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting because I I have been doing some reflective reading, and I would came across Carol Dweck, who's a psychologist, who argues that the growth mindset creates a powerful passion for learning and development, and abilities are um developed through hard work and dedication.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: So be dedicated to your learning.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: As and you know, one of the things we used to talk about in regeneration is lifelong learning.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: So, although I'm gray-haired, I'm still learning, um, and hopefully till the last breath comes out of me, um, you know, I'm constantly paying attention, um, but also not falling into the trap of having a Jesus Christ complex, I call it.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can't, you won't know everything, you can't save everybody.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you're gonna have to know your limits and be clear about what your limits are.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, listen, thank you, ladies.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this has been great.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: As a woman, we can never have enough conversations about imposter syndrome.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it sits on our shoulders and follows us, and even when we're doing well, we think, Oh my god, we're not doing well enough.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: When somebody's giving us a compliment, we can't just say thank you.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: We have to justify.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you know?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: So the more conversations we have about you, the better.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you, Liz, for thank you.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so so much for everyone that's coming on, that's come on and shared their experiences and Gifty for hosting.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, thank you to everyone that has commented and watched today as well.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a final week next week, um which builds on this, which is all about promotion and places, how to get what you deserve without feeling awkward.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, hopefully, you're feeling all inspired by um Alex, Carol, Helen, and Gifty.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, next week you're going to come um along to the next session and get some tips on how you can take all this inspiration and make it actionable as well.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, thank you so much to everybody that's joined.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.