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S1E9: Trusting God With the Timing · Biblical Business Podcast

• BBP S1E9: You can't scare me with your story. Stoicism is about self and contentment is about God. If Jesus' work wasn't sufficient enough to satisfy everything, then how can your work be? It's really hard to trust God with the outcomes. But do you know what's a lot harder than that? Trusting God with the timing. When you and I started working together a year ago, I think the thing that I said out the gate was, I wish I came across your material sooner than than I did. And the reason was because I've read all these books and tried to gain all this knowledge and completely did not invite God into my business to seek that perspective. So my question for you is where's the line between learning the craft and borrowing a theology that's not of God? Hmm. That's such a good question. I think that well, I also enjoy reading books. And the majority of those books back there are not Christian books. probably similar to the ones that you have. You might even have more Christian books than I do on on your bookshelf. I don't know. I feel like it's like this shelf and like a little you've got a look. Okay. Yeah. I've even got some. There's like encyclopedias. Up this this shelf here's got some of my kids' books. So, you know. Okay. Yeah. The question is, essentially, I'm gonna repeat packs so can tell me if I missed it. Yeah. Yep. Like how do we know How much should we be investing in time and energy and understanding in call it books, just secular business books, versus books rooted in biblical wisdom? Yeah. You know, I think that perspective is a superpower. And I've always considered myself like, I don't know, I jokingly say I'm an information vortex. Like if information is passing by, I want to consume it. And so I think that understanding the perspective across a bunch of different disciplines, especially in business, is really good. So I think that having ingesting information is good so long as you are rooted in scripture. And so if you first don't have a good understanding and relationship and time with the Word of God, I think reading secular books becomes really difficult. because you will have a hard time Separating good business advice from a biblical worldview. And so I think that I really enjoy a lot of the tactics and thought processes and stories around what people do in business, but they all have to go through then the mental and spiritual lens of the Word of God and what He says is truth. So I would say I would encourage people to read all kinds of things because that's the other thing. Like, how can you say, in first principles that you don't believe something that you don't underst that you've never read or you don't understand. So I like to read things because I I I I have a desire to understand. And then once I understand, then I can put it through the process of, you know, my worldview. Yeah. Okay. So like the my interpretation when I think about like the books on the shelf and as is as I first got into reading, I started to realize and and and see things almost like in jazz standards. So for instance, like if you want to play jazz, you have to know these songs. And if you know like these like a hundred-ish songs, then you could probably walk in and pick up in in any jazz club and and know what's going on and be able to feel the Did you play jazz? No, but I love jazz though. You love jazz. A mentor of mine, literally when I was in high school, man, he he would after I finished up like three PM, I'd go over to his house and he'd brew a cup of tea and he would play a jazz record. And like we'd be in like some great intellectual philosophical discussion. And he'd be like, hang on just a second. And then he would give me like you've got to hear this. You've got to hear this. Or it's like, I need to tell you this important fact about this song or about this artist before we get into it. Just give me three. It doesn't have to be a top three. Just me three jazz artists, musicians, groups that you really enjoy. man. in a really John Baptiste from a very modern era. I love his take and interpretations on some like great classics. It's very much on like the more popular side. Louis Louis like to me I love like the raspy voice that he goes in and it's like that's one's like a you love or you hate it. Louis Armstrong's is one those you either are enjoying that or you you press next anytime you hear the voice. Absolutely. And then Ella Fitzgerald. I mean I'm saying like all like the the easy classics and I wish I knew there there's classics they're classics for a reason. I am also, we we've never talked about this. I am also a very big jazz fan. Are you? Yeah. Like our wedding was jazz themed, and every table was named after a jazz musician. And we had a three-piece jazz band playing at our wedding through dinner. So and and all of my kids know, like if you if you ever come to my house and you sit down for dinner, yeah, everyone knows that jazz is put on. Some sort of high quality jazz is put on. And I have a record player. And I have jazz records and well you can see like like right back here. that's the Bill Evans trio, the one that's down there. Yeah, yes. And you know, if I'm if I'm naming a couple, definitely love Ella Fitzgerald. Yeah. but I would say Oscar Peterson, the Oscar Peterson trio. If if you haven't spent any time listening to that, listen to Night Train. That is like that's my that's the ringtone on my phone. Dude, Duke Ellington is another who I'm like, Ellington, yes, so good. Yes. You know, Dave Brubeck is another really good one if you haven't listened to that. Modern. Now I'm gonna take you modern. Somebody told me about this a long time ago, and I was like, dude, are you kidding? I love hip hop, as we've discussed, and I love jazz. Yeah. There's a lot of jazz influence. Actually, jazz influence is almost all of hip hop, but that's a different rabbit trail to go down. bad, bad, not good. Just like it sounds in all caps. Bad, bad, not good. They're a Canadian. jazz group that is like hip hop jazz. And they did a whole album cool. For those of you who might remember with Ghostface, who was a member of Wu Tang clan. But you can get for since we're all, you know, since a lot of the people with an earshot are believers, you don't want to listen to the one with Ghostface on it because it's explicit. Sour Souls, the instrumental album by Bad, Bad, Not Good is one of the vibeest, coolest hip hop jazz records you can listen to it you can put on while you're working and you can just chill. So anyway, jazz is like and and I don't know any I've never played jazz music. And that's why I asked you like I don't I don't know what the hundred those hundred jazz standards are. Yeah. But what you're saying is like essentially once you build a base, yes, then you can unlock the rest. Yes. And dude I think jazz In itself. I did not anticipate the conversation going this way, but it's a beautiful place to be. but the thing I love about jazz is what you have to do to and become a good jazz musician is you have to understand the rules first. And like once you know the rules, you know the scales, you know, like hey, you could play this, you can't play this, then you start to learn, okay, now you know the rules, how do you break them? How do you feel about the movie Whiplash? it's incredible. Have you seen have you seen the short film that got That one Sundance to get the actual movie Greenlet. So good, man. And that's one of those like the hands are bleeding. And you know, the discipline required to become a great jazz musician is ugly. A lot of it's ugly sometimes. man. But once you once you apply that discipline, you can just, you know, you learn how to play the piano if you learn how to read music and how to play chords. Then you can start kind of messing around, right? And start finding your own sound. And I think it's so true in business. It's like you can learn the rules of business and then you get to a level where you're like you feel confident enough. You're like, I get it. And so how do you break it? Yeah, here's my sound. This is my unique sound. Yeah. And I think of like good marketing, right? And it's like, okay, I know how to do this. What's something different? What's something weird that would stand out? And like I feel confident enough in taking that risk. Because especially it's like once you look at a scale and it's like you almost you have to deviate from What's comfortable in that scale to be able to like to take that risk and it could sound good, it might not. And there's ways it's like if it doesn't work, you can continue to like try to go back to it to like bring it in and make it work, and suddenly it's cool. And I think that's so true for for what we do in our world. It's apply it's applying the feedback loop. You you have a hypothesis, you experiment on that note. You might be worried. The feedback hits your ear and you're like adjust. Change. That's kind of I saw a video the other day of that guy who did I can't remember which Kanye song it was, but he was like, I was just on there like hitting the note. Dum, dumb, dumb, dumb. And he hit the dumb because he wasn't he he didn't like it. And then he went back to it and then he went back and forth. And it's less like the most epic known yeah, let's say Kanye song for people. And it came from experimenting. Yes. Right. You was just like, you're composing, and composing is a lot of that is just experimenting. With the sound. So in business, it's the same idea. How can you experiment and try things? Totally. See how it works, see if it resonates with your spirit and and you know how you want to lead, how God's made you. Yeah. And then make adjustments and repeat. Yes. So okay. So my philosophy with books, especially like business books, is that there is kind of a jazz standard, right? And it's like if you and I are gonna talk about books in the business world. It's like, okay, are you familiar with how to win friends influenced? Sure. Agreed. Yeah. Are you familiar with Seven Habits of Highly Effective People? Okay. Great book. Right. And like great books. And to me, I'm like, these are jazz standards. And it's like if we're gonna have a conversation, it's like we will have read these books in some capacity. But what and this is where I'm really curious of is I think that we can agree that those are really good, like like just practical books. Yeah. There's some books that start to get into like a self help. territory. Okay. And so as I'm even thinking about this, like how do win friends influence people, you could put into like a self-help category. But like t I it's all just practical skills of you know saying people's names and like, you know, right. man. My worst nightmare, by the way, is when somebody keeps repeating my name 'cause I'm like Okay, first of I know you read the book. Second of all, this feels so unnatural. And I know the person told you that the person's favorite sound in the whole world is the sound of their name. But I'm telling you, I just that goes back to the whole Enneagram thing. I'm like, you are trying to manipulate me. Yeah. That's fair. Like, call me by my name when you see me. That's cool. But like when you start inserting it again, I feel you trying to make a point. That's a great point, Adam. Yeah. So hey. I'm a little bit of a rebel on the jazz standard of of of the name usage. But that's to your point though, these are all the places where you kind of have that starting point and then you find your own voice. You're familiar with it at least. That's right. Like you could walk into a room, we can have a conversation about it, you can know the gist of it, and we can move along. A hundred percent. And so then I think in that same group, like you also could toss in books like Think and Grow Rich or Awaken the Giant Within. And it's like also like They're books with lessons, but I think they start to veer into a territory beyond just maybe the research and like psychological or best practices, to where it almost becomes spiritual in a way. And I think it can get very Millionaire Next Door is another good one. Millionaire next door. And it's like we can think of these books to where it's like, okay, there might be some practical, helpful things that's backed by research. And in my in my opinion, it becomes Science catching up to God. Like that's how I see all of this. It's well science, what science is, is the observation of things that are already happening. Yeah. That's a great way to say that. So science isn't creating anything, is it it is observing things, and then maybe it's mixing things around that are already created. But it is, as you said, it's catching, it's a great way to put it. It's catching up with what was already there. Yes. And I but I think that's a unique perspective. Like I I think that so often people try to disprove. the Bible from science. And I think that like even just your journey in faith began of, hey, I don't believe this, but now I'm looking towards the actual scientific evidence. So prove me wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Well the problem the problem is as you follow those, you know, quote laws, which are really just nothing except something that you're observing and naming. Yeah. Right. Like like you know, we call this thing gravity. Okay. We we don't know what it is. Mm-hmm. If you ask somebody what gravity is, a scientist, they will tell you it's a force. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry, what what does that mean? Calling it something doesn't explain what it actually is. Giving something a name doesn't explain what it actually is. It just gives it a name. And so we di we definitely do. You we get into this place where we give ourselves a false sense of security and control. By thinking that we've figured something out when really we're just catching up and we're not really just cat we're not even catching up. We're just observ we're observing along the way. We're making observations. Yes. And so I I think that it gets us to a really interesting point, which is like, I I almost have this theory that you you should be familiar with some of these topics, some of these concepts, some of these ideas, some of these books back here, right? But it's also like To not necessarily believe everything they say. And I think that's that's wise, right? To not just be like, okay, I'm all in because this book said to do X, Y, and Z. Yep. And there's also a balance to where, okay, if I'm trying to gain more leads and Alex Ramosy is talking about, you know, how all these different ideas that he uses to gain leads, the Bible doesn't give a lot of biblical clarity in terms of this is how you get leads for your business, right? Right. And so it's like you have like there's the opportunity to gain knowledge in that, but then the stilling and having the discernment of of where things are. So my question for you is how do you discern between that? Because I think it becomes a really slippery slope as we as Christian business owners are wanting to learn, wanting to understand, wanting to have those jazz standards, but also acknowledging not all of them might necessarily be pointing us back to God. Yeah. I I think that the the challenge is simple. And complex all at the same time. And it is that the answer to that question. So let's just use the hormose example, you know, like, hey, here's how you can get a bunch of leads. is is going and getting leads right or wrong? To your point, it's neither. Jesus is only concerned with the heart behind it. Why are you attempting to get leads? Why are you wanting to 10x your Revenue. Yeah. Yeah. That is the and and there's typically a simple answer there. And it's because you're trying to get rich or powerful or create security or do these things. And so the heart becomes the issue. So it's not that, for example, going and building a great plan for generating leads by creating a compelling Presentation of what you do. Hey, these are the outcomes that we can deliver for you. You know, come in at this lower offer and we'll give you a big offer and a one in the middle and we'll have people graduate up and we'll like none of those things are are wrong in and of themselves. The question becomes why and to what end? Right. So and that and that is really a question that every business owner has to ask themselves. So I can run a business, go generate a bunch of leads. if my heart is to use that business to steward it for God's glory. From a biblical worldview. Yeah. From a from a non-biblical worldview, right? Like, you know, you make the rules. So you're you're your own God. You get to decide what you think is right and wrong because there's no objective, you know, form of truth. And when you don't have an objective truth, you don't have a standard. You don't have a jazz standard. Mm. Yeah. You know, I have a mentor who was talking to me about his first sales job. in his early twenties. And he would like throw in like one of those Tony Robbins cassette tapes and like hype himself up before doing like the door-to-door sales, right? Yeah. And I told you I've told you the Tony Robbins story about about my birthday. No. Okay. You you tell your story and i i this is it's make anytime I hear the name Tony Robbins, it makes me think of this story. No, I want to go down this b basically it's like once he became a Christian to wrap it up and once he became a Christian it's like, okay, yeah, back off that and You know, it's finding the the trust in in God and not in yourself. And I think that's so much of the differentiation. But Tony Robbins on your birthday. Well, I first of all I think Tony Robinson. I'm imagining he like jumps out of a cake or something like that. Yeah, banana hands, there he Clapping, clapping. No, he Tony Robbins is interesting, right? Because I believe he is a professing Christian, at least recently. He's been asked about what his belief is, or at some point, and I I I've definitely seen it come out of his mouth, say that. You know, he he believes in Jesus. But I've also seen him talk about a bunch of other things. So I don't know Tony Robbins well enough to have an opinion about what he believes or or to know what he believes, I should say. I have an opinion about what he says, but I don't know what he believes. but this is this is I've told you that I was my stepdad came into the picture at a relatively young age for me. and I had, you know, grow we didn't grow up with a lot, and so You know, I had kids around me, in school in Chino Hills, where you had kids who grew up in nice, you know, nuclear families, suburban homes. they had car they got cars when they turned sixteen, right? Like that was pretty pretty normal, some sort of car. And so I thought, yeah. Like my st my mom had just gotten with my stepdad a c maybe a couple years before that. I'm like, Hey, I'm about to turn sixteen and and you know, I I I I I tried not to dream a lot as a kid when it came to that stuff, but I I don't know why. But for whatever reason, I'm like, man, maybe I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and like I'm gonna have a car. This is gonna be so cool. Maybe maybe. Just maybe. You never know. So sh obviously I didn't get a car. Didn't get my license until I was 18. And the first car I got was a car I had to get like a 21% interest rate on because my mom wouldn't even co-sign with me. Anyway, different story. sixteenth birthday, I wake up. And they're like, we got a present for you. And and I'm like, this is so cool. I'm excited. I open the present up and it is a box of Tony Robbins tapes. And their gift to me as a 16-year-old boy was the self-help tapes from Tony Robbins for me to get my my life right. That was the gift. So I went from thinking I was getting a car to getting Tony Robbins tapes. So as you can imagine, I didn't listen to them. Yeah. I was very angry. And my association with Tony Robbins was very negative from that point on. Now, as an adult, I look back and I go, gosh, that was so wise. Like, man, what a what a what a good message to send a kid who was misbehaving and, you know, the a lot a lot going on. But maybe poor execution, on on the on the side of it. So yeah, that's my Tony Robbins story. Did you just come home with your tongue pierced and they were like, Okay, well, we need to do something about this and this was their best attempt at it? dude, no. Tongue pierced was like yeah, tongue pierced was the The light I mean at at that point I had already run away. They had called the cops as and filed a missing person. I'd lived in the house with no power. I'd been, you know, they had gotten a call from the police to come get me because I had been, you know, d yeah, driving recklessly. I mean, there was yeah. No, we were we were at a point where the Tony Robbins tapes made a lot sense. Yeah. I didn't know you ran away. I don't think we covered that. Mm-hmm. I did. I did. Just after they My stepdad was in the picture. I mean, there was a lot of like one of his favorite stories to tell. One weekend, my mom, and he's like I can't I can't remember how old he was, but he was early 30s, thirty, maybe thirty-five or thirty-six. Okay. He's and I'm like, my mom goes off to some business trip that she had, at some business conference that she had, which was not normal. But you know, he was he was stuck at home with me. And apparently I was acting out. And I want to say I think I went to a like a pepperdine house party and came home way past, like way late. And probably smelled of alcohol. and he basically we got into a big argument and and he's like, I think I can't I think I went in and like closed my bedroom door. And he said, he came over and he's like, none of this is yours. And He took my door off the hinges and removed everything out of my room except for the mattress. And he's like, This is this is not your house. This is my house. And and you don't have privacy. You don't you don't you haven't earned privacy. and so he loves to tell that story. That's the kind of kid that I was. as far as like, you know, I think you said before the podcast something about me being a nice guy, like maybe, maybe, but God has worked really hard on me for years and years because and my me and my stepdad are like super close. We, you know, I actually did his podcast. He did it right here. we filmed it right here. And yeah, he's he's definitely a been a huge impact. He's he's made a huge impact on me. and just really poured a lot into like the energy that my mom wasn't able to give to try and get me right. 'Cause I was this very strong willed child. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember another time by the way, I can give you one more stepdad. Please, please. it wa actually this was the pepper dine party. Because I remember going to this this house party. So I'm underage, obviously. with my my best friend. We're still friends to this day, Ether. Anyway, we went to the party and Dr drinking obviously underage. And then we go and we're it's time to go home. So we we go to drive home and we stop at at Carl's Jr. Cause of course I needed a Western bacon cheeseburger, because that's always the right move. And then we're driving up this hill to get to my house, and I'm like, I'm sick. You gotta pull over. So they pull over. I get out of the car and I'm throwing up all over the curb, and Ethan's just hanging out the window, going, I have like white Adidas shoes on. Okay. I get home, it's after curfew, but I like, you know, I'm like trying to get myself together. My stepdad's there when I get in. I'm late. He calls me over to sit on the bench of the piano in the living room and he's like, What are you doing? And I'm like, I don't even know what I said. I think I just kept quiet, right? 'Cause I was trying to not show that I had had to too much to drink or had been drinking at all. And he's like, Go to bed. I wake up in the morning the next day, and I slept in my clothes. I wake up in the morning the next day, and there is like barbecue sauce pink throw-up all over my pants and shoes. All the way, like halfway up my knees. I'm like, he fully saw this when I came home. And you didn't play about it. And he didn't say anything to me. So I mean, I've got 15 I've got twenty five other stories like that, that were crazy from when I was a kid, growing up in Southern California. And so I think that's like to bring it back. Like for anybody who's listening, there is zero glorification of this. I mean, I have three kids, and if any of my kids ever like went down this path, I'd be I'd feel like I ha was the biggest I I feel like I would have have failed as a parent. My mom was trying to do it on her own, working three jobs. She, you know, couldn't spend the same time with me. So but All that to say, I think that when you are when you go through that kind of stuff, when when Jesus comes and shows you all the errors of your way and saves you, there's so much gratitude because you just know how much you need to be forgiven. And then it makes it like I don't know. I've found that it's always made it really easy for me to talk to anybody who didn't believe what I believed and who was going through hard stuff or who had done crazy things or who had experienced really dark and whatever things. I just ha I feel like I have a heart for people in that way because I know how dark my life was. and so I'm grateful for that experience because me messing all that up prepared me to be better equipped to like You can't scare me with your story. You can't scare me with like what happened. because I, you know, I've I've done a lot of the stuff myself. So I'm sure too. It gives a better depth of grace. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That's exact that's exactly what it does. Because you're like, man, like I've been forgiven so much and I continue to be forgiven so much. Like I've got I've got nothing to say to you. I've done I'm not looking at you and going, Wow, your sin is really that's r that's the really bad you really need it. Yeah, right, right. Like no, I really need it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the you took the log out of your own eye. And God took the log out, yeah. Yeah, yes, yeah. And I don't I before I really wanna understand The living in a house without power? Yeah. It was weird, man. It was a so it was a this guy he was way older than me, his name was Gabriel. And we had just, I don't know, whatever the crowds I was running with, we had connected. His parents were truck drivers. And so they were never really there. And so we kind of had like this, it was like a halfway house essentially. So there was like group a g whole group of us who could just live there. And yeah, it had it had no power. It was I mean, it had a power at a period of time and then it had no power. and we had candles. and I I've shared it, but like, you know, I would I was I was pretty young. I mean, I was probably fifteen because I was a bus boy. And the I that's when I would st hang my shirt from the like you know the bathroom fans, the they call them the FARC fans. where you turn them on, you know. I would like find a thing to like hook through the vent to hang the shirt or hook it on like the the shower hook and then turn the water on hot. It was a really small bathroom and then close the door and the steam would take those wrinkles out so that I was still I mean I mean I was it was pre believer. I definitely had some pride where I'm like, I need if I'm gonna go to work, I can't I can't look like I'm homeless. Yeah. Even though I don't really have home. I mean, there was other times where I mean, I remember living at somebody's house, they let me just stay in a room on a mattress. it was literally just a mattress. This was in Anaheim Hills. And and I would like I remember I would get paid like three my paycheck would be like $321 and my my car payment was like $317. And so then I would have to like ask for money. Hey man can I borrow five bucks to get gas to go home. So Yeah, I mean like it's so crazy to me to to have like experienced those things and then like getting to even see, you know, the life that that that God has allowed us to live or like that our kids live right now. And I'm like, man. I just I feel so grateful for each day. Like just waking up truly. Like when I say waking up with breath in my lungs, it's a gift. It's a it's the best day of my life. I really mean that. Like that's not That's not something I don't mean. I mean it. And sure, there's like hard things that happen and there's cool things that happen. But if I woke up today and I put two feet on the ground and I took breath in my lungs, it's the best day of my life because I've got another day to live, you know? Did you choose to live in in those situations? Or was was it, hey, what's the alternative? Yeah. So like in s in certain situations, like for example, when I was living on the mattress. I my mom had kicked me out. So I got kicked out of house. I don't remember which time. Yeah, I mean I mean it was probably there there may have been a time. No, that wasn't the time. I was trying to think of the time where I got into a fight in the middle of the road because somebody cut me off and I hopped out and got to a fight with three other guys, came home with a with a pretty big black eye. Or the time where I got into a fight at at junior college at the pool at the pool tables. No, I mean most times where she would kick me out, it it had to do with like essentially me either ruining things, taking things, stealing things, like just whatever you can imagine, she was at her wit's end. Yeah. Justified every time. Probably should have kicked me out a lot earlier. So but like the when I lived in the house with no power. It was my choice in that I ran away, but it wasn't my choice in that I had nowhere else to go. Yeah. Was this pre your stepfather coming into the picture? it was like right after. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. He came in and and there was a lot of like disruption, obviously. Yeah. You know, from being told when I was like eight that I was the man of the house. Yeah, sure. to then some other man coming in, you know, attempting to manage me in a way that I had never had a father in the house doing was was a little different. Yeah. Yeah. How did you react to that to that change? Not well, I don't think. it was it was definitely big disruption at first because it was a lot of accountability that I was not used to. And then I would say, Things got better and better, but mostly because I was I left the house. So by the time I was seventeen, just about to turn 18, or maybe right when I turned 18, I was out of the house living on my own. I I had finally I got a decent job. That was when I was selling cell phones, got my first studio apartment. so I was living on my own right then. And that's pre gen. That was pre gen, yeah. pre gen. No, that was post Jen. So when Jen when Jen and I met, I had just turned eighteen. So I turned eighteen that October. We met that December. And I wanna say, right when we met, she would remember. Right when we met, I had just gotten kicked out of my house again. And like month a few months before that, maybe, I didn't have a job or I was just about to get a job. yeah, I was kicked out of the house because I was up at my brother in law at the time, my my oldest sister's first husband. I was up at his house in Victorville and he was just letting me stay there. And I didn't have a car. And that was when I had to go get that twenty one percent interest rate on that that sh Chevy Chevy S lowered Chevy S ten that I eventually that I eventually got and Yeah, and then I got my first studio apartment right after that because I got that job and I got a little studio apartment with a car port underneath it. And that was like I would say just after that. And correct me if I'm wrong, you also got saved right before meeting gen as well. Yep. Yep, exactly. In October. October of two thousand. And so was that pre your studio apartment? In your sister's first husband's po place, is that right? I wanna s I wanna say going to his place was probably either right before or right after I had gotten saved. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like I got saved and then like everything changed about my li my who I was and my sinful nature. The only thing that really changed immediately was that I had a desire to learn more about God and that I stopped drinking and smoking. Those were like the first things. Cause when I like when I met Jen at that party in Fontana, that was the first thing I asked her, the whole group. I was like, Do any of you guys drink or smoke? And they were like, No. And I was like, Cool, high fives. I remember giving everybody high fives that they didn't drink or smoke. This was like a six keg house party with a live band and a pool. This is like every movie you've ever seen of like a California house party. That's what it was. Yeah. Like they used to do flyers. you know, you you would go to school and there would be a flyer of the house parties happening that weekend. And so it I remember the flyer. I've I've I've always wanted to find it, but yeah, it was a huge party in Fontana, which was kind of like a desert area in California. Yeah. I I love the quote of like pain change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. And I I I I could I'm guessing just in that moment, there was just a lot of pain in staying the same and a lot of conversations of God Who are you? And are you real? And trying to find evidence. Like s I know your brain is just very scientific, very research, very knowledge-based. And it's like trying to find I'm I'm guessing that's like you're trying to find these proof points to disprove this belief. And that evidence ultimately led you to a logical spiritual decision. I think it was that. And then also like, you know, mm the Bible says that God has written eternity on man's heart. And I think that I I knew I came to the end of myself. So because I had done all these different things and, you know, made these choices, and I mean, like, dude, me and my friends used to go in cars and like we would put on these like sub zero Halloween masks. sub-zero the character from Mortal Kombat, where it would like kind of blur out your face. And we would take these mini bats and we would hang out the window and s and smash people's side mirrors just driving down the street. Like I there's a lot, there's a lot that we did that I did. Yeah. And so I feel like I knew all of that was wrong. I knew that I wasn't who I wanted to be. I knew that you know, then I then I'm going down this path of like studying the deep the deep meaning of life and the matter and why it exists and like It was like God would just kept bringing me all the way to the end of me, you know, and to the end of like, you're not gonna like this isn't for you to somehow crack a code. and I think all of that was just in his infinite wisdom and plan, you know, he he has plans, plans for good. And and so he took me to that place and then that that change started happening. And yeah, so there was I mean, I don't know. Pain the pain of staying the same, maybe. but it was more like a perspective change, you know, and and seeing, right? So cause it's like a basic it's it's systematic steps, right? Okay. If God exists, then who is he? So first you just have to get past like this is where I I have a hard time with people who are like, Yeah, but the miracles and the Bible is probably this and that. And I'm like, Okay, do you believe that God The God of the Bible exists. Yeah. Okay. So if you've gotten past that something infinite exists that created matter out of nothing, right? So you believe that. Yeah. But you don't believe in a virgin birth or like that text can be kept or like I'm sorry, but the first Miracle is the hardest one to get yourself over. But once you're over that, once you know that God exists, this other stuff is like, okay, let's just let's walk through it. Like who once I know he is who he is, then all these other things are very much possible. So I feel like from that, then it was like, okay, God is real. Okay, what's his, what does he say? And then you start reading, obviously, the truth of the God standard for sin. And what sin is and what happened in Genesis three, and what are the Ten Commandments? And and then you measure yourself against those, and you're like, Well, like that's clear. So it's like a it's really a step by step process. I think Ray Comfort's one of those guys who does it, but you hear a lot of people do it. You can just go, like, okay, what are the do you know the Ten Commandments? okay. You know, have you ever taken the Lord have you ever taken the the Lord's name in vain? Okay. you know, thou shalt not murder or kill. Okay. Have you but Jesus says if you've been angry with your brother, then you've committed the same or have you ever been angry with your brother? okay, yeah. You know, thou shalt not commit adultery, right? If you've lusted after a woman in your heart, you've committed have you have you ever lusted after a woman? Okay. So, like by your own admission, and you know, tell the truth. Have you ever lied? Yeah. Okay, so you're a lying, adultering, you know, covetous. Have you ever coveted something? It's like, okay. Then you realize what the standard of the infinite creator God is. And then for me, that's then the perspective that brings you to the end of you to go, I can't save me from this sin that I have. And that for me was the the place of like, okay, cool. Now what do now what do we do? Yeah. Well now what what do I do with that? And and it sounds like the first step really was just, okay, I'm gonna stop drinking, stop smoking. That was it. That was my first go to church. So I went to church, get a little bit more, you know, pour in. And then by God's absolute provision, he brought a godly, God-fearing woman with wisdom and discernment and resolve and strength through that fence door in Fontana one night in the middle of nowhere, in a town neither of us had gone to, even though we both grew up in the same town and never met each other. And that was I would say then the real beginning of the the change because then I got to see what it meant to live a Christian life. I got to see like what was what was the dynamic of the relationship? Like she had standards for what she would and wouldn't do in the relationship. Yeah. And I had questions about that. Her parents, I got to see how they lived and and see how they modeled things. So it all of it was just like this. Beautiful opportunity to start seeing what it meant to walk with God. Yeah. And so what what did that walk look like? Because I think I understand where it started, how it started, right? Going to church Sunday, no smoking, no drinking. And then how I mean, I I look at you and I'm like, this dude is spiritually mature. And like you you have wisdom, you have discernment. And You know, I I know other people who don't smoke and don't drink and you know, go and go to church might not necessarily have that same, you know, wisdom and discernment and just having the Holy Spirit just speak through them. And so can you help me understand maybe how you got to that first step to how you got to where you are now? Man. I I I would say first, I have no wisdom and discernment apart from the word of God, and that is a fact. so anytime I'm wrong, it's me. Yeah. I don't I don't even know. Like I I don't think that obviously I clearly have a hard time taking compliments. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. but I I don't know that I see the same thing. And I would also say that the journey has just been a really long one of a lots of lots of ups and downs. And, you know, being surrounded, the more I surrounded myself and put myself in the word of God and in time with him and around people who truly loved him and cared about him and followed him and wanted to follow him, the more I grew, I would say. and The less I did that, the more I focused on other things, the less I grow. You know, it it it was like, you know, if you hang around trash long enough, you'll start to stink. Yeah. And it that can go the positive way too. You know what I mean? Yeah. if you hang out in the perfume shop long enough, you're gonna walk out smelling like perfume. Sure. and and so I think I had a a woman in my life, I who had a standard and who had grown up in the church who could encourage me and who I could walk through things with and talk talk with and be real with. And, you know, she wasn't like she never I never felt like she she felt like she needed to perform for me. And so that always felt really safe, right? Because I didn't feel like somebody was trying to put on to get me to feel the way. It was just like she was going to be real. I mean, one of the first conversations we had was about purity. Yeah. Right. So like I I remember where I was in the team room. So the team room at Chick Sporting Goods, where you like do like jackets and letterman jackets and stuff. That's where I worked at the time. And we were gonna start dating. And have I told you this? No. Okay. And and she said, well, you know I'm saving myself for marriage. And I thought, I I literally said really? Okay, well, I'm gonna have to think about this. And I I she Jen jokes now, she's like, I should have dumped you right then. But but you know, I remember talking to the guys at the team room, being like, you know, but there was something I just knew. I knew that she was like the one. I just did. Yeah. And and so I called her back and I'm like, Yeah. And God in his Not just infinite wisdom, but wonderful sense of humor, it wouldn't be until seven and a half years later that we got married. Yeah. So I think, you know, it was like she was standing on principle. Yeah. And and it was almost like those are the things that that make you go, Yeah, I know. Now I know. You know, because I know she's going to like push me. She's also gonna call me out, she's gonna stand for what she believes in. And I was raised by a single mom who was the strongest female figure you can imagine, right? Just imagine that that's my mom. Yeah. so I appreciate and I I feel safe around. and I love being around a strong female figure. it's something I really think is awesome. It's an awesome display of God's creation. And I love being around strong males, but I have a I have a a bend toward. strong women because I was raised by a single mom and I had two older sisters. So but all that to say like I think the journey was being around her and her family to be encouraged in my walk and you know that iron would sharpen iron. And and and iron sharpening iron, if you look at the technical of it, it's a very violent process. It is violent, man. Tell me like sparks are flying. to sharpen iron, material has to be removed. And so when iron is sharpening iron, God doesn't use that, you know, analogy for no reason. Yeah. It is like two very strong things striking together that are then removing things. And that removal is actually what makes them sharp. So the the the concept of ironing sharpening iron, iron sharpening iron is that. y things are being removed from you that need to be removed. And that's what's making you sharper versus right, like somehow people are helping you to build you up. Iron sharpening iron is the you can't sharpen iron without taking material away. Yeah. And so being around strong people like her her family was her her parents were strong in their faith. She was that encouraged me and pushed me 'cause I was a strong personality as well. And so that was a huge part of my walk over the next I mean f forever. It still is now. I mean, we're twenty twenty twenty-six years later. Yeah. I think about when change happens in my life, and I see it kind of in one of two ways. I see one to where it is either it's like a rock in a stream, right? To where it slowly changes over time, right, from erosion, right? And then other times there's moments where like a dam breaks and Like it changes the entire landscape and positioning of where you are. And maybe what I'm trying to understand is from that time to where you stop smoking, drinking, now you're going to church, till now. Yeah, I'm I'm curious of some of the things that either were became the water eroding away at Who you were and the sparks f like ma maybe it's less violent than the sparks flying, right? But it's slow changes because it's the mindset, it's the people that you surround yourself with, or those dam break kind of moments to where, man, everything is really shifting. Yeah, I think the the water analogy was me truly like attending church. So we started going to a Calvary, a Calvary chapel. Listen, I didn't know anything about churches or denominations, non-denominational. I just went to the church that Her parents said would be cool for us to go to. We tried another one and then we ended up going there. What I ended up really loving about this particular one, well, one was that it was what they call expository teaching. So it would teach through the book of the Bible, through books of the Bible, word by word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter. And I really liked that because again, I felt like I wasn't missing anything. and another part of expository teaching is you get. historical context and they're like, here's the author, here's the audience. You know, it was like it it scratched that itch of the desire for deep knowledge. And it wasn't just like this surface, like I'm trying to get a feeling from from somebody in church this this weekend. It was a a place for education, which was huge in my walk. and and the the pastor there was he he was grew up Jewish and and so and he was an attorney And so he also had this certain way of teaching that was very technical and very, you know, again, s it scratched that itch for me. So God just knew that that's what we needed. and I would say that was a hu very much a formative part of then me developing a healthy relationship with the word of God, reading it. You know, I ended up going through and graduating from the school of ministry, at Calvary. And then we led, you know, I I led the radio ministry for a while, used to edit the radio messages, and then we ended up leading a community group for almost ten years after attending. So, you know, I think the that church experience I would say was a huge part of like the the formative side of of that. And and I would say honestly, like in this whole concept of biblical business, it was weirdly like it was that separation. You know, it was like that was where I went and the things I did to get that part. You to to help with my my faith. And then I did all the business stuff over here. And they were they were very separate. Even though, by the way, even though every one of us would hear, hey, you what are you gonna do Monday through Saturday? How are you gonna apply this? What do you you know, we heard that, but just for whatever reason it never clicked into actual business. so that was like I would say w the the kind of slow drip, if you will. and you know, I think the biggest damn break was was joining C twelve. It was joining C twelve and and hearing this concept of business as a ministry. It just it it just blew open the doors for me to go, wow, I've completely been missing this opportunity to use and steward these things in front of me in business for for God's glory. so yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I go back to a conversation that you and I had offline last week, which is the loneliness that comes of being an o with the on being an entrepreneur. and I think of I think we're both talking it's like maybe at a social event and right, you're like if I'm at a party or we're hanging out with some friends or something like that, it is I almost just don't want to talk about Myself because I I think it only exasperates that loneliness. Because it's like if I try to articulate this to you, you're just not gonna get it. Like unless you're another business owner, unless like you were also in the arena, right? It's gonna be really hard for you to get what I'm talking about. And like you might try to ask questions, you might try to understand, but I think ultimately what happens is it deepens that feeling of loneliness because it's like there's just you're not gonna There's no way for us to connect in that realm. And and I know that you were saying something similar, depending on the environment. I think for me it's like part of why I probably don't go to very like I I don't socialize a ton. Yeah. I don't go out to networking events, I don't do a bunch of speaking gigs, I do this. social media is like the biggest I would say unlock of me sharing any thoughts with the world ever for me. as an introvert. And then I hang out with my with Jen and I hang out with Lily Ellen Ezekiel and I hang out with Jim and Helen. Like it's fa it's family stuff. And I think that the I would say it's less for me about them not understanding per se. But it's more like they're just not that interested anyway. Sure. I think it goes back to what you said in the beginning, which is like genuine curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. So like When you could because when you're talking to someone and they're in the medical field, you may not know anything about it. and you'll never really understand what it means to be a an ICU nurse. You can never truly get it. Yeah. But you might ask questions if you're really curious to engage the conversation. I think the healthiest form of that is a little bit of tennis playing, right? Or pickleball playing of good questions. Right. Back and forth. And I think what you and I find, and that's part of what creates loneliness, but it's also part of what you allow you create it yourself is we ask a lot of questions. Sure. And it's a defense mechanism. Yeah, he who asks the questions controls the conversation. Sure. And so you're essentially controlling the flow of the conversation. And you also I don't know, I I think what I'm trying to learn, what God is teaching me and He's been teaching me for the last year, is that I used to not share what I did. With most people. So and and Jen can attest to this. My kids can too. They say it all the time. They're like, they roll their eyes. Somebody asks what I do at a soccer game or at a whatever. And I'm like, you know, I'm I'm in in the finance world or whatever. I just like basically throw it over and then I ask them a question to move the conversation on. Yeah. And I I've done that because I'm like, I don't want to brag. Right. Because it sounds braggy to be like, well, I'm the president and CEO of an investment research firm. And I also do private CEO executive coaching. I have a podcast, I do social media. It's just like l it makes more barf even saying that right now, right? But the the perspective switch is what we've talked about on a different call, which is God's confronting of me to even do social media, which was like, I get it. You you don't want to share with people what I've done with you. You're too proud to share with people what I've done with you or what I've done for you. And I thought, What? And then I thought about it and I went, like God's going, you think you did this. You think you're the ones who's responsible for all these things. That's why you're unwilling to share because you actually think that you're telling them something that you did. Yeah. Or that you earned. And so the perspective shift for me was like, well, those Those are if somebody asks you what you do, just tell them because you're not you're telling them about where God's put you, right? It's neither from the the the east or the west or the south that it's it's but from God that raises one up and puts another one down. You're doing what you're doing because God's put you in this position right now. And if you can give him the glory when you share what you do, I think I feel like that can help with that loneliness side. Yeah. Because it is like the more I shared nothing, the more lonely I felt. Right. Because I'm like, yeah, I don't want to talk about this because you know they don't they don't get it. And then what? Well, yeah, you're never letting anybody in. Sure. So I think there's definitely a challenge for business owners. And there's a rever I would say there's also like a reverse side of pride to be like, yeah, like somebody won't get it or somebody won't really understand. It's like, well, yeah, they won't unless you share with them. They definitely won't unless you share with them. Sure. So how can we if somebody's trying to bear burdens with us, how can we let them? That's interesting. Yeah. And and I think there's in my mind it goes to being selective. Like there's there's people who say exactly. And so I go to to your C twelve group and I'm curious. I've never had an environment of other Christian business owners. It's the best man. And like I wanted to just understand a little bit better w how the dynamic changes. what that meant for you from a leadership standpoint, what that meant for you as a Christian, what that meant for you as a business owner. You know, I think what's suit what's what's interesting about the way they have it done and their model is it's that it's this one day all one full day, you know, a month. And that's a serious commitment, right? And yet when I'm there, like I have it this week on Thursday, when I'm there, I I can really sit and listen and be encouraged by and challenged by other people in the room who are in business, right? Who have built businesses, who do quote, understand, but who are have have agreed that all of this has to come from a biblical worldview. So like even if you wanted to start getting off the rails on like your next big idea or whatever, you're in a room for the purpose of leading your business as a ministry. And so you have you somebody will be going down some rail and then another person in the room will be like, they'll insert a verse. Or they'll be like, But have you have you come to God about that? or like, you know, we're having a conversation and somebody's like, Well, I'm gonna sue this guy and he's a believer. And and they're like, Well, you know God says not to sue other believers in this, this, and this verse. And it's like, where else can you be challenged this way? From a biblical worldview, and I know there's other groups that do it. And I mean, even like we have the biblical business community that I teach once a month in. Any community you can get into where you are around other believers that you can be challenged and encouraged in is a really good one. And the dynamic at C twelve is really one where it's it's one that has some stricter requirements, I would say, and bigger asks, but that then develops a group that doesn't change a lot over time. You know, like one of the biggest challenges in community group, we used to hate it. They're like, well, when you get certain certain size, you gotta start splitting up. And then people are like, well, who's split? I'm not leaving. Are you leaving? Like which which people are leaving in this group and which people aren't leaving in this group. So I I think having a group that stays together for a long time is a huge advantage as well. Because they get to know your business. so like one of the aspects of C12 is that every month somebody does something called a core business plan, core business presentation. And they present their entire business, like their family, the business background, where it's at, all of the financials, all of the operations, how they rate their people, who are their star players, what are their biggest problems, what are the challenges they're facing, what's their short-term and long-term plans, what's their their ministry impact right now and how are they doing? How's their, you know, and then we interview their key key players on their team and even their spouse. And they get that feedback from the group to say, like, here's what they think you're doing well, here's where they think you need to change. Here so there's this richness. And so you see this deep dive on somebody's business also every month combined with then a study that's focused on something. It's a whole curriculum that you that they teach through each one of those days, the facilitator. teaches through each of those days. And it's just awesome. It's really awesome. It's not just like this surface level, I don't know, consumption of something else. You're involved. Yeah. What have been some of the things that you've learned in that group? Tactically, spiritually? Yes. so much. So much. I mean tactically, I remember early on it was just like The blind spots that you end up having because you just don't see it in your business. where s you'll I would present something and then somebody would like out of left field be like, Well, why aren't you doing this? And you're like, Wow, I didn't think about that. Why haven't I thought about that? And it's coming again from a place of like a biblical perspective, but also an experienced business leader and an entrepreneur. spiritually, You know what you learn is also that you're not alone. There's something that they do where they do like a balance wheel and they have you rate like your highs and lows. And it's like marriage, personal finance, rest, retreat, fun and recreation, fitness and nutrition. And you rate these things every month. And then you talk about your highs and lows. Well, one of the lowest rated categories is rest and retreat for every CEO across the country. And so then you go, Okay, first of all, I'm not alone. So now you know you're not alone, which then you go, Okay, guys, what are some ideas for how we can deal with this? And then you you, for instance, you set to dos between one meeting to the next, and then you ask to hold each other accountable. One of my C twelve members or one of the group members texts me and like, hey, you were trying to get that day of Sabbath in and retreat, how'd go? Or, you know, like, hey, I wanted to, I'm gonna go on date nights with live. And you so you have accountability as well. and I think there's just so much you can learn from that. So I don't know. I mean I could I could probably go on for a long time on the stuff I've learned. But I think at at the base I would say is I've learned that being in a community of business people who want to run their business From a biblical worldview first, for the glory of Jesus is invaluable. It's something that you cannot put a price on and it's worth it's worth your time, money, and effort. Yeah. Cause the purpose of this, even for you, of posting on social media of is starting to democratize the access to this information more because the threshold to be able to get into C twelve is higher. Then a lot of small business owners are able to justify. That's exactly that's exactly right. So like you have this like call it typically two, two million plus with enough free cash flow that you're willing to spend fifteen hundred to two grand a month to and take a day off every month. and there's so many people who are just not there yet. And for me, like this and social media and the and even the biblical business community, they're not competition with C12 in any way because I'm a C12 member and I'll continue to be one. this is like the prequel, in my opinion. It's getting to the people who cannot be served by C twelve because they're just not ready yet. And not not that C12's saying this, but effectively what it is is like, well, when you go and figure it out, then we'll help you. When you go figure it out, become so profitable that you can join this, then you can be a part of it. And I'm like, okay, you know, I think back to my mom and I think back to it's like when I make social media. I think about my mom when I make the videos because I'm like, if she could have this information that I'm about to share, would it be valuable to her back then? And would it have changed helped change her tri the trajectory of her life? So sharing on social media is like, yep, anybody can get it anytime. And then it's like, cool, if you want to go even deeper, you know, you can pay a thousand bucks a year and have like access not just to a community of believers, but to a you know, a call where we actually can talk through things once a month and you can hear other people struggle. So essentially you're just creating this community that, you know, is I I don't even know what a what that is ninety bucks a month or something, a hundred bucks a month versus two thousand. And then as you continue down that path, like get yourself into C twelve locally. Go find a local group, but know that you can you can still have a community before you get there. Yeah. Yeah. I want to I want to go back a little bit. 18 years old, you're selling cell phones. Okay. And I think something that's really fascinating about sales is when you when you're doing good, it's you're just gonna do better. Right. And when you're having a bad month, it is hard to spin yourself out of that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And So much of that comes down to just belief, right? Just and I think that's a really interesting concept. I I'd love your take on because there's a certain point to where you have to have like the confidence of like, I can sell this thing and like we would be a good fit, we'd be able to help them and be a solution to their problem. But also where does that deviate in like a belief in self versus belief in God? And how do we balance that? How do we think about that? I'm I'm opening my Bible because you're making me think of a of a sp specific spot. in in sales, the reason I got I would say good at sales is one, I I had a high appetite for failure. So I was willing to just, you know, do do things that wouldn't work and try them. And I also had a a healthy relationship of apathy to the outcomes. So the outcomes didn't determine my output. And that was huge. Because typically what happens is in sales, when your output is high and then your outcomes are high, you're like, cool. But if your output is high and your outcomes are low, you're like, and then all of a sudden your output goes down. And then of course your outcomes go down. Like meaning. Hey, when I make a lot of sales, I'm super happy because I'm putting a bunch of work in and I'm closing deals. But what happens when you're putting a bunch of work in and you're not is then you get sad and you go down and you down there further and you're just like on this constant roller coaster. And I kind of figured out early on that I needed to keep my attitude like this, no matter what. No matter what every day I woke up, even if I had a a a record month, if I had a hundred loans in the pipeline, I would come in and make and I would dial that day like I had nothing. And that mentality is what propelled me to be really successful in sales. And I think I didn't have the language for it, but that was applying a biblical principle from the book of Philippians. So Philippians 4 13 is quoted a lot by people, I can do all things through him who strengthens me. Except the the context of that verse is contentment. It's God's provision. And so if you go back to Philippians four at verse ten, it says, actually at eleven, not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me. This is the word of the Lord. and it was like, so basically what Paul's saying is like w I know I know the secret. I know the secret of being hungry and being full. I know the secret of having a lot and having nothing. I can do all th it's contentment. I've learned not f not that I've learned of speaking being any, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. And so content I think gets gets it it can get people hung up. You know, and I I I think that contentment isn't tacit acceptance and sort of sitting back and being like, Okay, good enough. No, it's just I have peace. I have a level of peace no matter what situation I'm in. And so then when you wake up in the morning and you go to like hit the job on sales, it's like you wake up and you've got joy and peace and you're like awesome, I'm gonna steward this day that's in front of me well. And no matter what happened yesterday, no matter what I think might happen tomorrow, each day is a new day, right? His mercies are new every morning and and I'm gonna give it everything I got today. What do you think the difference between contentment and stoicism is? Mmm I think stoicism is a is a very interesting concept. I think that in many ways Stoicism is about self and contentment is about God. I think, I think stoicism is like this desire, and I I'm not a philosopher and I don't I don't know what I'm talking about, so feel free to disagree with me. and I've read a lot of Ryan Holiday books, and I've read, you know, Marcus Trelius, and I've read, you know, it's not like haven't read, okay, but I just I want to qualify it that I have no idea. I always have no idea what I'm talking about. Everything's just my opinion. I think that contentment is found in God. It's about God. And stoicism is like contentment with self. Does that make sense? Yeah. I And you've read and you've read the the Stoics as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's just something really interesting about how culture speaks to business success. And it comes back to the belief in self and very much about us. And I think something to actively unlearn is like from all these books, from like just the subconscious like stream that has pointed me in a specific direction. It's like it's really having to like intentionally shift that and say, instead of going in this direction, instead of it being about self, I needed to be about God. And so I think it's having to unlearn a lot of the things to where it is it is being cont and and having trust and faith in God that He's got this and I could do all things. And And you've learned the secret, you've learned the secret. Common maybe common knowledge is not always common practice, right? That's a fact. That's a fact. And so I think I just did a quick quick search of contentment, and it says contentment is a state of peaceful satisfaction and freedom from worry or restlessness. Okay, so as entrepreneurs, I think like part of our being is like we push, and for whatever reason. Like we we don't we're not satisfied with where we are and we push to what could be. And in my mind that's also opposite of contentment, is it not? No, because th contentment well let's let's go into Satisfaction by the world standards, I would say, is highly dependent on external circumstances. Contentment, peace, is an inward posture that has nothing to do with anything happening on the outside world in the outside world. And that is why it's a peace that surpasses all understanding. Because when when you're when your life is in chaos, when there is terrible things happening, when there is Death and sickness and pain and, you know, all these things happening that we all deal with, the fact that you say that you have peace makes no sense to the world. And it only makes sense when that peace is an inward posture, not based on those circumstances, but based on knowing who knowing who God is and having a relationship with Him. So then how do we balance contentment and stewardship? I think that. stewardship doesn't mean you're restless. Stewardship doesn't mean you're fearful. And so you can go to the parable of the talents if you want to see an a a beautiful expository on stewardship versus, you know, contentment. Right. The the one who was rebuked was the one who didn't do anything because of fear. So that's not even like that's the inverse of restlessness. Right. It's like sometimes we do the opposite. We just don't do anything because we're afraid, which is also not stewardship. So the the that the gap between like, quote, being a pusher, you know, and being somebody who's so afraid that you don't do anything is where stewardship lives. You know, stewardship is saying, I am going to. take care of my father's things well while he's gone. And that doesn't mean that I'm terrified and I'm restless and I'm like, my goodness. It's just the other thing is is it's not like panicky, right? It's kind of like I don't know, like let's say you're taking care of Jesus' house. You know what I mean? And this is where all the verses start flowing through, right? Proverbs 21, five, the plans of the diligent, right? Look at the ant. Look at the that house, if you don't take care of it at all, You don't steward it. And he's like, coming back tomorrow. You're like, I've got to clean this whole house up. Yeah. Well, you haven't really stewarded it well. And so I would say sometimes in our business and in life, when we're having to panic respond to things, it's because we haven't stewarded well with diligence already. So the solve is is not to then like, you know, the people who go, I'm gonna pay off all my debt with with one consolidation loan. But then you're right back at the same you're I used listen, I I remembered selling a home equity loan to a doctor and we consolidated $500,000 in credit card debt. And two years later he came back to me and he had $800,000 in debt total because the behavior was never adjusted. He just dealt with the symptom, right? He wasn't dealing with the cause, the original cause. He was just treating what was in front of him. So we're the it's the stewardship is the same in our business, I would say. So the so the balance is we want to take care of our father things well fathers things well every day. And so we can ask ourselves the question, hey, what can I do today to take care of my the things that my father has put in my hand while he's gone. And I'm not gonna do it out of fear because he's gonna come back and rebuke me. I'm not gonna do it because I think I'm missing out. I'm going to do it because I love him and I want to out of him loving me because he loves me really. It's not because I love him. Because he loves me, I want to out of that show him how much I love him by taking care of these things. And if you were to come back tomorrow and you were to have had that heart shift and there were still some things, quote, wrong, we talked about it early in the podcast. Jesus isn't concerned with the technicalities here. He's concerned with the heart. I remember when I was coming up as a producer, one of the running jokes that would we would would have was this idea of a producer always has something that is going wrong right now. And it's just a matter of like where it is. And I feel like that's pretty true for business owners as well. Totally. Like at any moment of time. Yes. And I So I guess my question is like it's easy to just say, well we you could be content about it. But I then ask the question of how. My hypothesis is that it's a heart thing. But I then think, how do I practically start gaining that contentment? Yeah. I think again, I'm I'm no licensed therapist, but I can tell you a practical way to start. is to wake up and like if you have a whiteboard or a piece of paper, write down all the things that you're anxious about right now. Write all the things that you're worried about right now. And then start categorizing them. Right. Start categorizing them and saying like, because part part of dealing with anxiety is acknowledgement, right? We have to first acknowledge what it is that we have in front of us. And sometimes we've we don't ever put it into words or write it down. And so we just feel this like Bill Burr says like I idle at 90. We're kind of just idling at 90. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And so, I think identifying those things that you're anxious about and then giving truly like saying, okay, what is within my stewardship today for these things? And like, you know, again, it's not like affirmations, but sometimes maybe we do. I think sometimes that weirdly, like Satan can take even something that might be good that's out there and like drizzle it. with something else to make us then go, ooh, we shouldn't do that. Like waking up every day and like looking at yourself in the mirror or closing your eyes and talking to God and and knowing that you are loved right where you're at, it's such a good reminder, man. Yeah. Because because if if if Jesus' work wasn't sufficient enough to satisfy everything, then how can your work be? I think a lot of the practices that are taught in these books behind me go to have the right practice but the wrong intention. And so I think of like meditation, for instance. Right. I think that's like, man, that has been skewed in so many directions. I think of like you man and and then I think of like some of these books and it's like it gets into like manifestation, it gets into visualization, it gets into like neuro Like their neuroplasticity and it becomes like a an arc almost, right? Yeah. To where it's like some of it is like scientific and like there's research that backs it. I think of neuroplasticity to be like one of those things. And then I think of something in the middle where it's like meditation. I think we're taught to meditate on the word of God, but I think so often that we strip God or let me say that the world strips God out of the act of meditation. Right. I I think it just becomes a an array of all sorts of different things and It's I've had to just put a filter over the past few years to understand and and to seek discernment as to what's what what's true and look for the word of God. Honestly, where I think like leveraging a tool like AI can be really valuable. So we say leverage AI and you're like s people are so afraid to do it. I'm sorry. have you been Googling anything for the last ten years? Yeah. Because that was you using AI. Yeah, by the way. You were using intelligence artificially created to give you an answer to a question. Which verses, you know, fill in the blank. So you doing that with AI is is no different. Okay. But this is where I would say it's a great thing to do something. Like, for example, hey, there's this concept of meditation or there's this passage in this book. Like, can you give me and point me to any actual biblical you know, take on this, right? Is this is this Something that the Bible talks about or not. Yeah. And I think you'd be surprised, surprised at how much information you can get from that. Because a lot of the stuff like neuroplasticity, okay, let's just use that for example. Sure. It's all these these are just new names for things that God has already said. Right. Like if you just think about taking your thoughts captive. That is neuroplasticity. Yeah. Okay. If you just think about because we were in Philippians 4, Philippians 4, 8, right, where he says, I mean, in the ESV it says to think about these things, but in other versions it would say meditate on these things, right? It's like Philippians 4, at verse 8. finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable. There's any excellence, if there's anything worthy of praise, think about these things. In another verse, in another version that says, meditate on these things. It just means think about them. Meditating is sitting and quietly thinking. Like that, that's not that's not a new concept. Yeah. And so I think a good way to use these tools is to like take your books, take some of the concepts in my hand and say, hey, chat or whatever, right? Point me to. the exact verses, right? And then give me and make sure it's within context on this particular topic. And it's a great starting point. Now a better way if you really if you really want to get is just to like spend a lot more time on the Word of God. Yeah. And then your your mind will we were just talking about this at dinner. we're doing a verse of the month with the with the kids. and Jen wanted to do a verse of the month. So we're like, okay, yeah, let's do it. And Funny enough, I think I told you about the whole video game thing. I made them a video game that helps remember the verse. where it's like you, you're like, I don't know, it's like Zelda, but you have to go like attack people with portions of the verse and it progressively gets harder and takes words away. Anyway. but you know, I think the my girls, one of my girls was like, you know, yeah, daddy, I feel like, you know, you can remember a lot of verses. And I was No, I I can't actually. It's been a My whole life I've had a hard time remembering a lot of verses. I don't have a photographic memory. I'm an auditory processor. I can remember a lot that I hear, but seeing is not my thing. I have a I I don't remember that way. But you know what has has changed me is making a thousand plus videos on social media for the last year. Because every day, not just am I not not am I only reading the word, but now I'm actually we're talking about it. I am deeply studying a portion of it, I am then sharing it and then repeating it. And that pr just anything you practice regularly, it it's the jazz standards. Yeah. You're building up those hundred songs and then you can go grab I can grab a lot at any time. And and then somebody watching might be like, Wow, you really got a lot of verses memorized. no, I'm not good at memorizing verses. Yeah. And that has only happened because I have continued to just go and go and go. And if I stopped If I stopped right now and didn't do it for the next year, it'd be harder for me to remember these things. I think about you know, our mind is so good at protecting us. And we've talked talked about thinking fast and slow by Daniel Kahneman. And I think of the idea of a lot of the decisions we make are not necessarily intentional decisions. Most of them are subconscious, like a type one decision. And I think so often We automatically get into the cycle loop, the cycle to where our brain is trying to protect us. And maybe something has not gone the way we wanted it to go previously. And so when we're like, okay, well, we have to do it now, right? Then our brain builds this up and is like, no, we have to protect you from whatever this was. You know, maybe it was you know, sales, sales is easy come to come back to, right? To where it's like, okay, you, you know, someone cussed you out on the last call. And so it's like, do you really want to hop on the next one? Right. And that that becomes way harder. And and so how do we think about how do we approach situations like that to where so often we have to unlearn from a subconscious standpoint this thing that our brain is working actively to protect us from? And how do Maybe it's contentment, maybe it's just that simple. I d I don't want to go like in a semi-school direction with it to where like Jesus is the answer for like all right. Any any questions. But can we get a little bit more information for it? Right, right. So I was curious to your take on it. You know, I mean, I I think that our brains clearly develop neuropathways, right? We can observe that. And it's like it's like if you can imagine you know, a a dog running in a backyard in circles. And, you know, if they do it year after year after year after year, you see this pathway, right? That pathway develops. Those are neuropathways. And the more that you do, you connect these things, the deeper that rut is in the backyard. Mm-hmm. So for you to take a new route is not only going to be weird for that dog to do, but it certainly isn't going to be all of a sudden doing it again on a new route after the first time or the second time or the third time or the fourth time or the fifth time. It's going to take a lot of work to create a new pathway. Right. And I mean you can see what's it's so cool to like see under a microscope someone learning and to see these like like a tree branch, like a root just popping out and going and grabbing another piece, right? And creating connectors. to create those connectors, you have to then disrupt your you have to disrupt that dog on the Yeah. In the in the circle. You have to literally like either like dig a hole in the trench or set up a blocker. Yes. And so you go, okay, well, how do we do that in real life if this is my neuropathway? And that is the biblical wisdom of taking your thoughts captive. So t take atomic habits. So this is where you can apply wisdom, right? Where when you're trying to build a habit, you need to make it easy and you need to make it obvious. Yeah. Well, you need to do the inverse of that. So when you're trying, so you just you can build in reverse. When you're trying to undo a habit of of thinking or behaving, you need to make it hard and you need to make it difficult to find. Yeah. So if you are, I don't know, if your brain, anytime you're on a sales call, and somebody starts raising their voice, wants to like panic and hang up, you need to like actively make a choice when this starts. I'm going to I don't know. stop, pray, take a deep breath, ask the customer a different question that moves in a different direction, or I'm going to confront them for the right. Whatever it is, you have to, but you have to make a decision, right, to to disrupt. And you need to make it like it's gonna be hard. Okay. So then I go to I go to this idea of Lord, I'm praying that. You bless my business. Right. And it's like, like, Lord, I pray for, you know, new opportunity, new client that like I didn't see. Yeah. You know, maybe it's like a certain deal or whatever. Yeah. And at a certain point, you I think it's you have like eighty to ninety thousand thoughts n like per day. Yeah. And seventy thousand of them are the same thoughts from yesterday. Yeah. And so it starts to just be reinforced after a certain time. So I go to this idea of like I'm praying for this. And even if I start at a place of like total belief, like God has got this and I'm not even worried about it. Over time, I feel like I start to doubt. And something that's really interesting that I've observed about you is like you you will pray for very specific, very odd things. And have complete conviction about it. And so often that it has resulted in something. And and And so so often it has resulted in nothing. Sure. Sure. And and what I would say to that is it's really hard to trust God with the outcomes. But do you know what's a lot harder than that? Trusting God with the timing. That's really it. Like Even if we're like, cool, God, I trust you with this outcome. I'm praying for this thing, but whose timeline are you on? Yeah. And like if you just go back, if we go past the timing, before the timing rather, yeah, it comes back to do you trust God with the outcomes or do you trust God with the outcomes that you want? Because it's the same prayer, right? What does Jesus tell us? Not not that here's what I want. Yeah. But not if it's not your will. Right. Your will be done. So I think when we're praying for something specific, like for me, if I'm praying for something specific, I do ask with conviction and with very clear conviction, if it's not this Lord, burn it to the ground and let me never see it again. whatever your will is, Lord, would you bring it about? Would you let me see it? You know, would you and you c I can pray, would you do it faster? But you know, it's it's crazy because when I when I pray that to do it faster, even if I'm praying for that, I know while I'm saying it that that's not it. I don't want it. I actually don't you don't want it faster, trust me. Some of the worst cases in the Bible is when God does what? He gives them over to the desire of their hearts. So What I want is to be within your I want to be in your will, God. I want your timing. I want your outcome. I want your desire for this. and it goes back to the the book. I did I talk about did I talk about the shower story on here? No, is that pre-call? That's pre-call. Yeah, so weird. Like I I coming out with this book and I just haven't asked God what he wants for it. Total loser. And I was in the shower and I'm like. I realized that I felt convicted. I'm like, Wow, wow, God, I haven't asked you what you want this book to do. I know the plan I know what I want. And so I just prayed. And then I looked up. I I prayed. I I asked him very clearly. I don't know that I expected an answer. I just I I just wanted to pray it. And I looked up and as soon as I opened my eyes, I saw the words Delta. And I shared it with you, but like we had just had our shower redone because like a leak was in there. So we haven't had a Delta faucet. And Delta, for most of you on this listening to this or watching this, you'd be like, that doesn't mean anything. But it actually means a lot to me. I instantly got the message from God. the at Sherman Research, when I renamed all of the indicators, one the first indicator that I renamed for investment was the bull bear. I changed to Delta V. Because that means change in velocity when you're talking about space travel. In my in the book, in there's a whole chapter on decision velocity, and I talk about, you know, the change, the the delta in I use delta a lot. My license plate on my Tesla was delta V. And so I n immediately know, any of you who are math people, you'll immediately know like that the triangle sign, right? Of of of delta, it means change. or difference rather. And so when I looked up, I immediately got the message, I want the book to make a difference in people's lives. A difference. That was it. Nothing else. No other message. Not about sales, not about reach, not about just I want it to make a difference. And then I was like, well, I've I've already had people messaging me about how just parts of this have are making a difference. Yeah. So like, God, your will be done. Let's I'm gonna keep down that path. So It's like I'm praying for something specific there, but I don't know what the answer is. And then if he there are many times where I make that same prayer and I f I don't get an answer. Or I feel like I don't get an answer. So I think do do we trust God that He is who He says he is? And if we do, we're good. Whatever's gonna hap whatever's happening, it's good. He has right Jeremiah twenty nine, eleven, Romans eight, twenty-eight. For I know the plans I have for you, plans for good, plans for you to prosper. Right? Like he works all things together for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose. All things, not some things, all things. That means all this stuff happening throughout the day. So like I think it's just it's a trust issue. And for those of us who are trying to control everything in our life, trusting God becomes very difficult. I think too, it's having to unlearn so much of what the world teaches us. Right. And and specifically it's this idea of God I me coming in being like, God, like I trust you with this and I'm also going to do XYZ and I'm also gonna control it. And and it's this idea of like all things like work for the good. And I think about that when with like a business. And it's like, okay, the like the business isn't doing well right now. And so I'm looking at things from a worldly lens rather than like an eternal lens. And so and it's really hard to create that separation to where those are two different things. Yeah. And I I I think the struggle that I and I think so many people deal with is like I am having a hard time seeing it from a different lens to where the world sees it as one thing. The world sees this as success. They see the revenue and the profit as success and if that is not going in an upward trajectory, then you are failing. Right. And and realizing it's like what if the Lord is has a completely different definition of success and realizing and not what if the Lord has a di he does. Yeah, he does. He does. And so you don't have to accept the world's definition of success. And it just immediately brought me to John fifteen. So John fifteen, starting at verse one, I am the true vine and my father Is the vine dresser. Okay. Every branch that does not bear fruit, he takes away. Hold on. And every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Like when when the world sees a business being pruned, it says, this failing. In light of John 15, when the vine dresser is pruning, It's preparation for growth. Now, the question is like this isn't a blab it and grab it. Like, you're gonna do that so that you can quote grow and make more money. Yeah. Yeah. That's not that's not what we're talking about here. That might be a part of it. Maybe. It's it's growth by God's definition. And I don't think that which is a great, I mean, that could be a whole whole topic in and of itself. Like growth is in your relationship. With the true and living God and your call to the Great Commission to bring other people to come to know Him and have a deep relationship with Him. That is real growth. Everything else is like icing on the cake. It's all extra stuff, you know? And that that's why it is so hard for a rich man to get into the gates of heaven. Right? Because Usually when you when you focus on the get rich part, man, your your heart is it's ravaged along the way, man. It and it's and it's not that it's the devil necessarily. It's it's your flesh just becoming exposed. Was it not hard for you to unlearn the years of seeing how corporate America, how we as humans view success when it comes to a business, to c to having to unlearn that. And seeing it in a completely different filter. I'm still unlearning it. Yeah. I I I I would say I don't know that I'll ever arrive in learning that because not only you know do do you do I have fleshly desires that can be exposed at any time, right? With temptation or with, you know, like anything that can, you know, whether it's pride, whether it's all all of the things, right? But I think that even things like this, so because I'm an introvert, I don't talk a lot. But as Jen would tell you, if I am talking, I can you can get me talking and I won't stop. But for the most part, like I work in an office, I'm by myself in silence. I I th I process a lot in here. And I think that can be good in some ways. But I think even this, doing this and talking about this and having these conversations, that is how you unlearn it. It's the frontlets, right? It's like, how do we keep this stuff front of mind? Well, it's like how do you do good at social media? You keep posting. Yeah. So like, are we posting in our life? Forget on social media. Like, are you posting every day? To keep your reps up on what God says is true. Right? AKA like spending time with him here, talking about it with other believers, encouraging one another, bearing one another's burdens, sharpening each other along the way. I think that is like, man, this is such a gift. So I feel grateful. Thank you. Because if you weren't here and you weren't doing this, you weren't asking questions, I mean, I just wouldn't have all these conversations. I wouldn't be thinking about them. I wouldn't and and I hope it helps other people, but very selfishly it's helping it's helping me. Yeah. And and likewise, you know, I the hope is that it helps other people, but as we're kinda putting a button on it, I do see this very much, these conversations right here, as an ironing sharpening iron. To where it's like, Hey, there are sparks flying, there's things that are vulnerable moments. Especially on the branding episode. Yeah, especially on that one. Yes. So I I think I think that these are so encouraging and helping shape and form the perspective of how do we view business and life in a biblical viewpoint when the world has defined it with other terms. And and heaven rejoices when one when one soul is saved. So if there's one person listening to this whose life has changed And they choose to follow Jesus. They choose to live their life for him. They choose to even if they've been, you know, growing up in the faith or what right, they don't need some grand story. Actually, a lot of times I feel like those are the better stories. It's like you grew up in it, but you didn't you weren't really sure if you believed it or if it was just built in and then you find your relationship with him. If one one person has changed and we're a thousand episodes in, heaven rejoices. So we should rejoice too. And And that's that's the peace. That's the contentment. That's the gr the growth that we're after. Mm. Yeah. Amen, brother.