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From the Vault - Mary Jane Kelly - The Ripper's Final Victim · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Well, they're delicious.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Friends, you've made it this far, or maybe this is
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: the first time you've joined an episode, but welcome to Hooded.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: What Now from the Vault? This is well from the Vault.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: It's an episode about Mary Jane Kelly, the fifth and
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: final canonical victim of the serial killer known as Jack
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: the Ribber. So this episode's going to be a bit
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: different from the other four you've listened to if you
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: have listened to the previous in the series, because we
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: don't know that much about Mary Jane Kelly's life, and
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: what we do know is dubious for a lot of it.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: We have this And I haven't really talked specifically about
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: the deaths of many of the victims because I wanted
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: to focus on their lives. But in this my friend
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Melissa Rayliffe, her and I have a very deep discussion
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: regarding Mary Jane Kelly, because out of all the victims,
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: her death makes the least sense in the scenario. But
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say this here. You're gonna find out
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: when you listen to the episode.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: But we were there one day and one of the
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: girls in the in the kitchen, it was like, where's Emily.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: What's Emily like? And everyone's like, who the fuck is Emily? Like,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: who is this Emily person? Sheeps talking about? She thought
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: my name was Emily. So I ended So I ended
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: up with this American persona called Emily. And Emily has
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: the gole fry. And Emily pronounces words incorrectly. I mean,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I know I pronounce words incorrectly because of my accident.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: But Emily loves these jella panos and the tortillas. Like
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Emily is so white. I mean, I know I'm white,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: but like Emily is so it's such it's such a
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: good time. But honestly, Erin and Tara in Savannah, Amy
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and Safety John and In Jeremy chare me with the puppies.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I just ah, oh, it was so this one time
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: at Pagan Camp. I cannot convey you how much fun
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: this was. I mean I did see a lot of
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: boobs and a lot more genit tale you than I
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: was anticipating I would see, you know, because there are
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: actually signs up in certain areas going like, you know,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: you need to be dressed to be here, like you
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: need to be clothed or to be in this like location.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: But it's such a wonderful time, and I I honestly
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: would do so much to get back. I would. I
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: would love to go back there, just a holiday because
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: it's just so wonderful. But I know what you're thinking.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: You're thinking, got your glibber jabber in fact me, in
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: fact you I will. First, we've got to get our
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: source on Mary Jane Kelly and the Victims of Jack
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the Ripper by Neil Schulden. The Hidden Lives of Jack
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: the Ripper's Victims by Robert Hume. The Complete History of
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden. Metropolitan Police three dash
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: one four oh Police Investigation, Paully Nichols, Anti Chaptment, Mary
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Jane Kelly Metropolitan Police, three dash one for one not
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: in report into the Murders, Palace and Hovelle Phases of
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: London Life by Daniel Joseph Kerwin. When Prostitutes an Ordinary
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Citizens Commercial Sex in London eighteen eighty five to nineteen
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: sixty by Julia Late. The five by Hallie rubin Hold.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: And of course we have the Echo, Police News, Paul
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Mall Gazette, Evening Star and the Telegraph. Are you seating
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: comfortably good? Then let's begin so this final episode in
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: the five canonical Victims of Jack the Ripper. So this
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: is about Mary Jane Kelly, and it's because she's known
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: as the last canonical victim of Jack the Ripper. I
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: don't think she is. And I have a special guest
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: later on who's going to come and help me elaborate that.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: But that's the case. That being said, Mary Jane Kelly
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: is probably the most elusive of every victim that we
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: have dealt with thus far. Because we know Jack, we
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: know absolutely nothing about it. Sorry excuse the pun, but
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: we don't. Every piece of information we have is definitely
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: second third hand. There are very few documents related to
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: her existence, very few, indeed, and we're basically running off
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: a rumor mill. It's whispers and hints and stories. There
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: is very little concrete evidence, which has led a lot
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: of people to, you know, consider one option or the
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: other and to assume that something happened one way or
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: the other. And with Mary Jane, like her early life,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: we don't know. We don't know her day of birth,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: we don't know where she lived, we don't know how
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: she was brought up, we don't know what type of
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: family she had. Now, the story she tells, She tells
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: different people, different tales as far as we know, because
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: again we're getting it second, third hand, and a lot
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: of this information is coming through, you know, interviews for
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: paper or in the inquest after her death. You know,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: it's things like that. So she may have been born
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: in Ireland and then moved to Wales. She may have
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: been from Wales her whole life. Like, we're not sure.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: There was a Mary Jane Kelly who was baptized in
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Limerick and whose family did emigrate. Now this could have
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: been another Mary Jane Kelly. This could very well be
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: a case of mistaken identity, or not mistaken identity, stolen identity,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: identity theft. It could very well be. There's no guarantee
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: one way or the other. But there are literally no
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Welsh census records pertaining to this, and if Mary Jane
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: was who she said she was, she would show up
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: in at least one census record. So she tells people
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: that she was married to a coal miner called Davies
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: or Davis, which fairly common decent Welsh name. There's no
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: record of them. There's no record of their marriage, so
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: if she was in a relationship with him, it was
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: more like a common law thing as opposed to an
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: actual marriage. But again the census records they don't show anything.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: We have nothing, And as a historian, may I tell
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you this is incredibly frustrating because she was a person
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: and her story deserves to be told. We don't really
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: know it. Maybe she didn't want anybody to know it.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And then, in which case, none of her bloody business
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: is it now whether she was with Davies or wasn't
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: with Davies, whether they split up, or he died or
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: whatever happened, because apparently it was like she was like sixteen,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: so she says when she married him, and then after
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: this she ends up moving to London. Now, although her
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: information is very much second third hand, we can use
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: this a wee bit to get a week grasp of
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: what Mary Jane was like. I mean, we know that
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: probably her name wasn't Mary Jane, and she probably didn't
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: come from Ireland. So when she arrives in London in
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three, there were a few things that we
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: get from her. She's well educated, she can read, she
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: is articulate, and she can draw. Now she's noted as
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: being a you know, a good artist, that she can
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: draw quite well. Now, I mean this could have been
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: a talent that she picked up you know, here and there.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: But in girls' schools, drawing was something that was that
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: was very much put forward. So she was, you know,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: from a wealthier area and from a wealthy school. Chances
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: are she would have had art lessons. She would have
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: had that. Because of the way that she talked about
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the places that she had lived, we can surmise that
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: she did live in Cardiff before she lived in London,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: and she does tell one of her lovers that that
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: she had a long stay in a hospital in Wales. Now,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: if she was in a public hospital, a public funded hospital,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: we would have a record of where she'd been, especially
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: if she was under her own name, if Mary Jane
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: was her name, But this isn't there. So either she
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: was there under an assumed name, or there was the
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: possibility she was put into a asylum I know terms,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: but that's kind of what happened when wealthier girls ended
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: up in you know, situations out of worldlock. So if
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: she had been pregnant and given birth in one of
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: these institutions, she very well could have been from an
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: upper class family who had that but the shame of that,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, meant that she couldn't go back because
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: of their particular perceptions on purity and womanhood and everything
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: like that. In the era, she would have been shamed,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: and so going back to her family may not have
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: been an option for her, and so going to the
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: place where there was a lot of people and a
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: lot more opportunities, she ends up in London. Now. One
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: thing people say about her is, apart from the fact
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: that she's meant to be beautiful, she's quite young. So
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: she's younger than everyone else we've dealt with so far.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: She's meant to be in her twenties, and she's got
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: perhaps auburn hair. There is stories of it being dyed
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: with hennah, but we're not entirely sure about that. But
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: she's pretty, she's young, and she doesn't really have an accent. Now,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: in order to not have an accent that has to
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: be pushed out of you, you have to be trained
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: not to have an accent. So I don't know if
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: you've ever noticed this, but you get a lot of
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: people who would be like, I don't really have an accent.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Like in Scotland for years, people would say I didn't
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: have an accent, but you'll hear it. And a good
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: friend of mine actually commented on my voice the other
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: day and he was like, yeah, your accent just flipped
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: in the middle of a conversation. I'm like, yeah, I
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: do that. So sometimes it'll become more Scottish and sometimes
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: it becomes a little more Irish, just depending on location
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: and what I'm talking about. And didn't realize I did
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: it for so long, but I'd do it. But yeah,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: so if she grew up in England and had elocution lessons,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: there was every possibility that she would you not have
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: an accent. I'm not saying I had elocution lessons, by
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: the way, I was just told to speak properly my
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: grand her family's from the Highlands, and yeah, this is
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: kind of how things end up. But yeah, with Mary Jane,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: she was how do I put this, well spoken, and
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: no one ever assumed she was any other nationality and
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't even consider it, like it wasn't a possibility
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: to them until she told them, Like she would tell
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: people she was Irish, she was Welsh, but she didn't
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: have an accent, like she didn't have anything like any
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Lults or anything that related to that. You'll see a
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: lot of like movies and stuff that are in doc documentaries.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Is when they, you know, do portray her, they always
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: give her this kind of fake Irish accent and it's
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: always weird. But yet elocution is always one option. But
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: there's always the possibility that because accents, especially in the UK,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: they're incredibly regional, so she could have just hidden it,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: disguised it. But again, she would need to be I'm
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: not saying she would need to be of a certain
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: class to do that, but in order to pronounce things
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: a certain way and not fall into certain colloquial habits,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: she would have to know how to do that. So
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: there's always the possibility that she was from a wealthier
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: family from a certain area and you know, either couldn't
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: go back or didn't want information to go back to them.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: But again this is all guesswork because we don't know.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: What we do know is that she arrived in London
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty three, so she somehow gets a job,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you know, as a high end sex worker under a
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: madam in London, and these are easy positions to get
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: being being a sex worker in these kind of areas
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: up in like Haymarket and picc a Lilly, pic a lily,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: that's that's a sauce Piccadilly. She would really need to
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: have something special or some kind of in So her
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: name even fluctuates a little bit here, so sometimes she's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: known as Mary Jane in sometimes Mary Janette, and it's
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: quite possible. She also spoke French, which you can learn,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: you know, in certain areas in life. But again, you know,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: French was a you know, an international language of commerce,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: of business, of dealings, so it was quite a common
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: language for again wealthier girls to learn. So anyway, in
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties in London and these these madams, they
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: would be called procuresses. So it wasn't just come in women,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: lie on your back, you know, and a insert remove,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: repeat next person. It was kind of more like an
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: escort service or even the girlfriend experience because a client,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't just purchase sex. That wasn't the point. You
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: were supposed to buy a women's company from the evening.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: So the women that were involved in this, the sex
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: workers that were doing this, they had to be of
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: a certain elk. They had to be able to have
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a conversation they had to be able to dance, which
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: was incredibly important. You know, they had to know the
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: lay of the land, make the appropriate you know comments, jokes, YadA, YadA,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: and a lot of the time, certain areas would be
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: booked out, like gentlemen would book, like dance halls, like
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: clubs would book you know, these kind of areas and
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: would have these kind of events so that they could
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: spend an evening with a lady adorn her with you know,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: gifts and clothing and you know, things that would make
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: it not seem inappropriate to be together, because if a
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: gentleman were taking a lady out on a night in
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the town, you know, it would have to have the
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: appearance of respectability. And Mary Kelly herself, she often referred
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: to this as her career, like she saw sex work
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: as a career. Whether she'd kind of leaned into its
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: lot in life or whatever, that's what she did. She
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: was generally comfortable at points, so she would have jewels
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: and clothing and she would be safe, you know, to
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: a certain point. And again it was relatively comfortable is
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: as far as the situation goes. And although she wasn't
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: like a Corrasan who would have you know, very select,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: like one or two clients. She probably had a few
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: repeat customers in that build a level of trust and
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: a level of intimacy. Now she ends up leaving her
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: madam's house, the brothel, whatever you want to call it,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and she ends up leaving. Now she does say that
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: she goes to Paris, didn't like it, and comes back.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: We don't know if this is correct. We don't know
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: if she actually went to France. We don't know what
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: happened there or why she left. There's you know, theories
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: that she was trafficked. There's theories that she went there
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: with a gentleman who promised her the world, and Mary
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Jane Kelly's personalityes made that dissolve. So there's the concept
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: which did happen, you know, well, to do escort sex workers.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: They were traffic to France because English ladies were fun.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: It was a fad, it was, you know, the trendy thing,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: and so they would be taken and you know, it
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: would not be as pleasant a scenario as they had
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: had before. I'm not saying the scenario before was pleasant
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: by any means, but this was worse because again, language barriers,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: undramiliar locations, culture, et cetera. But then there's always the
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: possibility that she went there with a man named was
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: it Cleig Quig, this dude. Anyway, she goes over and
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: she gambled, She was loud, she had no secrets, and
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: he was more reserved. And so although life in Powers
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: should be kind of fun, especially for her in that era,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: because of what Paris was then, you know, it was
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the place to be. I mean, it's still relatively the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: place to be, but it was just a very exciting,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: you know, place at that time. But for whatever reason,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: goes to France, comes back from France, and she doesn't
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: go back to her original madam. We don't know why
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: where Bridges burned was, did an incident occur? We don't
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: know exactly why she left. Was the madam The very
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: reason she was trafficked was the madam mad that she
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: had left to you know, start her life with this
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: man and thus leaving her you know, her clients without
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: one of their favorite pets. Whom's to say, Yes, I
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: know what I just said, but I am thinking of
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: other perspectives. And even though it makes my skin crawl, So,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and Mary Jane Kelly is now in Ratcliffe.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: So the Ratcliffe Highway, it's in London, it's near the harbor.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: It's pretty busy, pretty crowded. There's always sailors and drunks,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: and you know, it's easy to hide there, and also
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to earn there. At the very least,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: she'd always have a full belly and you know, a
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: good drink. Now it's at this point that we know
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Mary Kelly was drinking, whether she was drinking before and
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: that had caused issues with her previous you know, brothel
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: again just a possibility. But there she is, she's in
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: the Ratcliff Highway and she ends up renting this little
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: brick cottage from this Dutch couple in like eighteen eighty five,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: I say cottage. She basically rented a room in this
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: brick house right and the owners, the original owner, her
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: husband used to rent out to ladies of the night,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: you know, to use for their clientele. And when he died,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you know, the widow was like, eh, why why ruin
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a good thing? May as well, you know, keep earning
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: her money. Now. Elizabeth, who she rented from, she wasn't
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: like a madam or sorry, a procuress. She wasn't any
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: of these things. Right, She was just a woman who
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: rented some rooms, and it was whoever rented those rooms,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: it was up to them to find their own client
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: tell and so that's what Mary Jane did. It was
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: easier for her. She could, you know, be more careful
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: about who she was dealing with, and she was safe.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Now for the most part. You know, generally Mary Jane
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Kelly was quiet and kind, went sober, but when she
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: had a drink in her when she had alcohol, she
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: was loud, raucous again, she held no secrets, She gambled,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: she was she was not great to be around, and
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: she caused so much trouble that she, you know, she
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: basically gets evicted from this room and after this she
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: moves into the boarding house next door. Now it's not
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: that Mary Jane was, you know, drinking to excess all
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the time. It's just that when she did drink, she
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: is generally what I like to refer to as a
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: grumpy goose. I don't know if you've ever met a
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: goose in real life, but they are terrifying and they
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: will come at you. They will come at you when threatened,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: even when not threatened. Sometimes they just like to chase you.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah, once she's got a drink in her she's
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: an angry goose. She's honking. So a year later, she
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: meets Joseph Fleming. He is this twenty seven year old
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: laborer and he is apparently heads over heels over Mary Jane,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: and you know, she seemed to care for him. They
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: actually stay in contact for the rest of her life,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: but you know, the relationship doesn't last too long. She
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: moves in with him, you know, not that long after
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: meeting him, So I mean it's some kind of stability,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: which makes sense because you know, she's dealt with enough
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and living with a man, as we know, as we've
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: said before in many of these episodes, is the most
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: secure option. So she even talks about how fond she
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: is of him, and she continues this for a long time.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: And so while she's living with him, she tries to quit,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: you know, sex work. She doesn't you know, look for
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: John's or clients. But for whatever reason, she's forced to,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: you go back into selling sex like she has to
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: do it partently, it's the only way of her earning.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: And the following year she meets Joseph Barnett, now Joseph
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Barnett is one of our main sources of information about
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane. Now, what she tells him and what she
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: tells other people, it's information that we have to take
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: with a pinch of salt. So she kind of settles
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: down with Joseph number two and there together and they
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: move here and there over the course of a few months.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: But then they end up getting the little one room
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: building in Miller's Court, and that's like the spring of
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: eighty eight, so we know from eighty seven to eighty eight,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: and they move in. But what's really strange about this
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: is that the tenancy is in Mary Jane Kelly's name,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: not Joseph's, which, to be honest, is really fucking weird
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: for the era because you know, you would expect it
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to be in the man's name, but it was in
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane's. We don't know why, We probably will never
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: know why, but we do know that fact. So in
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Miller's Court, Mary Jane would often talk to her neighbor.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: There was a young girl, and that's where we get
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: another huge chunk of you know, the information about her
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: is what she tells us girl, and we hear about
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: other girls coming up to her who are thinking about
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: going into sex work, and she basically steers them away.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: She warns them against it, not because it's you know,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: degrading or shameful or anything like that. It's because it's exhausting.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Like she said herself, she was tired of it. And again,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly is still very very young at this point.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: So life with Joseph Barnett isn't all, you know, peaches
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and cream, because he loses his job, so he doesn't
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: have an income and he can't get what he needs
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: to get, and so they are forced to rely on
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: her going back to her career and engaging in sex work.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Now can you imagine this is a woman who's already
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: said she's tired of it, she doesn't want to do
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: it anymore, she doesn't want to have to sell her body,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and circumstances have forced this upon her again because think
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: about it, if she went from a situation where she
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: was safe and secure and she was living with this
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: man to just having to put herself in danger again,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: because she would be very well aware of the risk,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: because she is a woman in eighteen eighties London who
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: was also incredibly aware of the rappers layings, the Whitechapel murders,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: like she would have people tell her about them, and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: she was having to put herself in danger. Now, Barnett
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: also wasn't happy because Mary Jane was letting women's state
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: in Miller's court. So instead of having them be out
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: of the streets at night, she was letting people stay. Now,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: some people say that they were, but yeah, we don't
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: have any definitive information on that. All we know is
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: that she let women sleep in her house instead of
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: having to be on this stas because she was afraid
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: for them. So she was putting all this into play.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And then Barnett, he just can't be dealing with it.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: There's a fight. They were always having fights, especially when
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: they drank and a window gets smashed. And the thing
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: with this window is it gets like stuffed with like
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: a rag or a cloth. It's just to keep the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: chill out because at this point it's not exactly the
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: warmest time of year. But by offering her home to
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: these women, she could very well have saved lives, not
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: just from you know, the Whitechapel killer, but from the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: other dangers out on the streets. Yeah, Joseph wasn't super
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: happy about this. But he couldn't really say anything because
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: it was Mary jen who had the roof over his head.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: She was paying for everything. It was in her name.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: But eventually it's too much for him and he leaves.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: But Joseph does pop back on November eighth, eighteen eighty eight,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: and she's chatting to her Palissay. She'd been to the pub,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: but she wasn't drunk, she wasn't like heavily and talk scated.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: She seemed very normal. And he says he came to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: tell her that he had nothing to offer her. He had,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: you know, no finances, no job, no nothing. And they
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: talk for an hour and he leaves. And the next
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: time anyone sees Mary Jane, it's her neighbor, Mary Anne,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: and she sees her about quarter to midnight, eleven forty five,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and she's going into her little apartment with a man
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: and she tells Mary Anne she's going to be singing,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: and she does sing and here singing for a bit.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Now about one o'clock in the morning, one of the
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: neighbors is complaining about the fact that she's still singing,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: and she's she's at it for like an hour and
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: a bit, and then about two am, the dude is gone, rins, lather, repeat,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: off he goes, and Mary Jane is out two o'clock
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: in the morning. She's seen by a few people and
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: she then is maybe seen being spoken to by another man.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: At some point that evening, Mary Jane Kelly makes her
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: way home. She goes into mother's court, She folds her
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: clothes neatly, and she goes to bed fully in the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: belief that she's safe and sound because she's only worried
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: about the Whitechapel killer and he killed people on the streets,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: so she had every reason to think she was going
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: to wake up the next morning, but she didn't. And
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: on November ninth, about eleven o'clock in the morning, the
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: landlord sends one of his goons round to get the
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: late rent from Mary Jane. But when Thomas gets there
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and knocks on the door and gets no response, he
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: decides to take a look in the window, and that's
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: when he sees the horrific mulation of Mary Jane. When
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: it came time to bury Mary Jane Kelly, because it
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: was assumed she was irish, there was a Catholic ceremony,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: and like Catherine Arrow's before her, even though she had
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: no family to speak of or that we know of,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: like people lined the street. It was a massive, massive deal.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: And we talk about the less dead a lot. But
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly was a very a very interesting figure
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: for this because she was kind of venerated. You know,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: people had this strange obsession with her, possibly because of
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: how little we know about her, because so much of
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: her is a mystery, and that's where all these conspiracy
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: theories come from. But because she was young and supposedly beautiful,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: and because she had been mutilated in such a horrific manner,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: and because she was killed indoors, she becomes this weird
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: sim this icon of this fallen woman, and it could
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: have instigated the needs for change and a lot. And
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly is laid to rest under a name
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: she preferred to use, Marie Janette. So I'm going to
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: go into a little bit more detail now with one
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: of my favorite history talk people, my special guest for
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: this week's episode. And now we have the host of
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: the God's Favorites podcast and one of my first history
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: talk friends, actually, Melissa Hi.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here because we're going to talk
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: some true crime. So I didn't get my true crime
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: fixed in now. So we started off on TikTok as
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: friends just because I was like, oh, she's got a
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: history podcast and I have one, and we bonded over
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: our love of yeah, a lot of things, but specifically
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper, and then we also have a Titanic thing.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: It's at this point it's my second profession is titan
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: I do nothing but Titanic content for the entire month
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: of April, so that's where my brain is. So it's
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: gonna be nice to have a little bit of a
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper interlude here.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: We have very particular opinions about Mary Kelly.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Indeed, so we both know that Mary Jane Kelly is
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: considered to be one of them, what they call the
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: canonical five. I love the term Ripperologists. It's it's kind
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: of funny to me ripproology. They consider those five victims,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: although I would say they're more than likely more than five.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: But you and I both think that Mary Jane Kelly
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: is likely not part of that victimology, which is weird
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I think for some people because they always consider her
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: like the final death.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I feel like either the Repper was somehow stopped before
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly or just disappeared because it's not the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: same Kellor. It's not I don't care who. It doesn't
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: add up, none of it makes sense. Yeah, I think
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: like when we.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: Both were talking about this previously, we both have this.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: It's clearly instant because you know, you can't prove anything
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: with the River crimes, but it doesn't feel like the
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: same guy. It just doesn't. Because when you look at
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: the crime scene photos, and please, if you're going to
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: google that, don't do it at work and just be
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: prepared because Mary Jane Kelly's photos are terrifying. That whole
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: crime scene is terrified. But when you really think about
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: the condition of the bodies of the other victims that
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: granted that was also escalating, but Mary Jane Kelly's death
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: was so brutal and so violent that it just doesn't
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: match with what I think the ripper was after which
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: there's also like the process killer who enjoys the process,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: but this is just a person. He was trying to,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: you know, cut open and get organs out, and that
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: was more of the emo with the other victims, whereas
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Mary Jane was just annihilated.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: And there's so much rage when you look at the others,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: they're so clean, they are displayed like they're out in
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: the open. Every single one you know, was out there.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: They wanted to be seen. And this is head and
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: away and a house.
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what always got me too, because he
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: was so clearly proud of what he was doing, even
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: when he got interrupted. And that's what we think happened
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: with the double event, is that potentially the first killing
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: was interrupted or he ran after you know, the fourth victim,
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: and he like an art project to him more so
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: than he I don't think he got thrills out of
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: the actual killing. It was the results. Mary Jane Kelly
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: was annihilated and mutilated, and her face was just gone
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: like it was the most violent crime ever. The arguments
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: I've heard for her being canonical five is that, well,
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: he just had more time. But the thing is they
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: were all public death, not private. This was hidden away.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: And then Mary, we don't know that much about Mary's
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: early life or things about her. Doesn't make any sense
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: that this is the same person. I just don't. I've
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: never thought that.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: And what I found really I'm skipping forward a little bit.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: But there's a murder in New York of Carrie Brown,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: and it happens in a hotel, and it's very similar
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly in a room,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: very violent, very aggressive. It is of a sex worker.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a very particular type of mo whereas
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: every single one of these ripper slayings, anyone that's official
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: air quotes, there's just a careful, like particularness about it.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: There's something just very clean everything about it is putting
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: it on display. When they did it, they did it
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: at night. They did it at a time where there
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: wasn't really many people about, you know, walking the streets
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: of Spittlefields or White Chapel, not at that time in
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: the morning when they're when these events would have happened,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: which I mean half one and three o'clock in the morning,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: just roughly the sort of time frame when you look
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: at it, nobody's around. You're lucky if the dock workers
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: are even about. It's not as if he was gonna
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: get disturbed. It's not as if he was looking for
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: somewhere to go away and do it. He always just
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: kind of found the women in these It always seems
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: to be in nooks and crannies, and then very much
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: puts them on display. Look at what I did, See
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: what I have done. He would put their personal effects
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: beside the body. He would lift the skirt up so
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: everyone could see what a good job he'd done. Like he's,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: like you said, he's proud of this. Why would he
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: then go and hide away and close the door.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: And those other killings were silent, like nobody really heard
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: anything because I'm thinking, you know, possible strangulation, something along
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: those lines. But with Mary Kelly, we have this like
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: interesting timeline where she's seen walking off with somebody and
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: we know that her apartment there a coat hanging over
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: a broken window, probably providing an entry way, and people
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: heard her screaming, but they ignored it because they thought,
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: you know, it's why chaplton in the mornings. They just didn't,
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: you know, quiet ignoring it whatever that is not somebody
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: behaving quietly. Like bludgeoning a woman to death where she's
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: screaming is not the same as strangling somebody and pulling
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: out their reproductive organs. It's just not the same thing.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: So I'm with you on the IMO just does not
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: match those other four killings. And I've always been bothered
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: by this, and I don't.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Know why it's the rage, it's it's the fact that
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: there's clearly anger behind it. And that's what always came
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: to bullered me about this specifically, is there's definitely it
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: feels more personal generally when there's that amount of violent
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: rage with something like this, it is a very personal
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: personal attack to stab that many tames, to bludgeon that
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: many tames like, and the minor happened, you knew that person,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: you wanted to heart them specifically to me, that that's
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: what it feels like.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: It kind of feels like that to me too. And
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: we do know that like Mary Kelly had had a
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: person she was involved with I won't say like a boyfriend, husband,
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: but they lived together, they had relationships, and she had
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: been seen with him the night before and they were
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: always fighting and gotten kicked out for a flat that
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: they were sharing together for like domestic violence and drinking.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: So he sees her the night before she dies, and
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I'm always like, well, that feels kind of shady, but
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: you know, and then also just the fact that she
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: was also seen with a man who was finally dressed.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: There are so many contradictory reports about what Mary Jane
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: Kelly was doing at night, and it just doesn't make
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: any sense. And I know that people think that this
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: is just an escalation of behavior, but it's not escalation.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: If the mode of killing completely changes, it's just different.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a step up, it's a complete shark
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: jump escalating. You you know, it's the same but more
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: it's like you see that with.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: The rest of the killings.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: It starts off with you know, sliced open bets are
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: pulled out, and then it's sliced open, stubbed. More parts
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: are pulled out, more personal effects are on display. Like
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: it gets bigger and more grundiouse like every single time,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: but there's again, it's display, it's his art. Here's the
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: extra I've done, learning and getting a little bit more
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: confident every single time. Again, it's meticulous. So when it
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: comes to Mary Jane Kelly, it just feels like such
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: a it just feels off, which is very technicals.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: So say, there's no the forensic evidence from this case
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: has you know, very much long been destroyed and it's
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: impossible to track it down unless there's a confessional letter
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: that comes out at some point. But I think about
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: like the witnesses that were interviewed about her, how they
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: talked about she was with the man and then one guy.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: It was completely pitch black. But this man they were
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: talking to gives this. He calls him Jewish in appearance,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: which we'd although the anti Semitism was a big problem
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: in White Champel at this time, so that makes us.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: But he also describes very very strange, very particular things
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: that it would have been, including like the like what
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: was it the color of his eyes or colored with eyelashes,
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: and it was dark, it was pitch black.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: That is a small gay London like backstreet. It's a
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: dodgy old work code and you're not going to see
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: those details.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: So that always roused my like, uh huh, okay, where
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: were you at when this happened, because he's one of
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: the last people who saw her alive, and I'm like,
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: anybody look at this. I think his name was Hutchinson.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: He was like giving this very detailed description with you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: these very small gas lights, how are you going to
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: see from about forty five feet away? Not to mention
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: he was like waiting outside of a place for her
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: for forty five minutes, which is also creepy and he's
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: describing down to the tea with this person was worried one.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: Why were you out there waiting on her too? It's
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: it's too specific, you know, overkill on that one.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: There's just all of these extra details that nobody asked for.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: It's like you know when someone lies and they just
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I know it's in your a divergent person, I behob
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: of giving too many details, but that's a that much
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: even for someone like me on the color of his eyelashes.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: And leaning into because we all know the graffiti whose
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: body was that near? One of the victims said, the
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Jewish are people the men who will not be blamed
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: for nothing. And it's not clear if it was you know,
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: just already there. It's misspelled as.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Well, which is like somehow worse, Like the spelling is wrong.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I think it's supposed to be Jews, but
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: it's jay. I think it's j Yes Jesus. That's oh
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: that that graffiti gets so much conspiracy theory talk going,
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: like the masonry and all that chest But it's like
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking they're they're banking on the anti Semitism to
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: throw people off their trail, is what it feels like
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: to me, that is just that's just plain begotry. Yeah,
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: it is plain and simple. But like the fact that
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: that always alarmed me because he's he sees her. She
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: asked him for money, and he's like, nah, go on,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: and he weighs her off, but he waits outside for
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: forty five minutes for her.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Why why why are you waiting in the morning? I
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: think six weeks or twelve weeks, she's like so many
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: weeks behind on her rent, yes, for the house, for
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: the room that she's renting, which is in her name,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: not her Like, oh, no, partner is James Barnett.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Barnett is handling her.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: James Barnett.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: Yes, Barnett. Sorry, look at that Barnett.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Yea.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: He had been helping her out when he could, and
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: he had seen her the night before. So that's the
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: other thing I'm like, So there's there's two people who
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: have seen this woman in the last twenty four to
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: forty eight hours of her life. And imagine knowing about
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: where she lived and how the lock was broken and
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: how she had to, you know, have a little bit
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: of a glass that she covered up with a coat
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: like a curtain, and there's like like somehow they just
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: get in there and go crazy and it's and it's loud,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: and people hear it, but they're not thinking anything of it,
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: because you know, people are drunk in the middle of
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: the night and know for being like and she's.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Been thrown out of places for having domestic arguments, you
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: know exactly. There is that little bit of oh, it's
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: just them down the road. It's just them having another fight,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: it's another lover's quarrel. It's like, oh, she's being dramatic.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: And especially there was like gangs and stuff going about
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: at the same time, so some people would just not
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: want to get involved in that.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think you mean, you're hearing people scream
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: because there's a lot of crime and you're used to it.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: I don't think they're like if it's only like a
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: scream and you hear a thud and you're like, ah, okay,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: whatever and go back to sleep, they're not thinking they're
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: not going to that doesn't like I think of the
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: roommate in this reason Idaho killing who didn't think anything
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: was amiss when she heard a thud. It's like, oh,
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: it's a party house. Yeah, you're now here all the time.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: It's kind of the same thing, just like they're they're
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: hearing screams and everything constantly around the clock, and there
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have been a reason to automatically assume that anything
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: was a miss in that regard. I know that's a
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: lot of people are like, why why did nobody come help?
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: Because that was just the East end.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just background noise. That's the white noise they
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: went to. Somebody's being punched and somebody's screaming.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: That is whitechapel asmr.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Din in Mother's court. Like that's just how things wear.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, when you think of who's all staying in
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: those cottages and you know, everything that's going on out
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: with that, it's just noise. And then by whatever, stupid
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: a cloak in the morning, you're gonna have the warehouse
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: workers and the dog workers bumbling about and going and
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: anyway you're gonna hear them going past, like like, you're
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: gonna have noise pretty consistently. It's gonna be, you know,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: a surprise for there not to be any kind of
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: happenings happening.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: I mean what you're used to. And I mean I
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: say that just like you know, like I was talking
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: about the roommate is when you're around those noises and
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: like you're in a college town or you're in a
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: bad part of town, you're gonna hear stuff. And it's
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: just like mind your business or you know, lock your
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: door and don't pay attention do it. That's just the
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: way you're taught to keep yourself safe and just I'm
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: gonna stay in my room. I'm not investigating. So there
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: was no reason for them to think anything was amiss
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: until they find her the next morning. Yeah, it's very
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: graphic discovery.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: If anyone is gonna look up those Crimson photos, don't
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: do it before bed either, you.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: Mary Jane had no face when this was over with.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: And I'm pretty sure now that having looked up these photos,
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: I'm probably on some sort of government watch list.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: At this point, I maintained I have somebody from the
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: CIA and someone from like the m I five just
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: watching me because some of my Sarach history is for.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: Sure, if most search history ever gets brought up for
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: any reason, I'm a I'm a goner with some of
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: the stuff I've looked up from history. But I remember
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: the first time I saw this, and I was in
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: my twenties. I was nauseous. I was just about to
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: throw up because I have never seen anything and they're
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: not even this is bad and black and white. This
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: is bad black and white, which tells you that's bad
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: when you can see how bad it is in a
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: black and white photo. I mean, blood soaked room. This
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: was it feels personal, and there's.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Just bets of her are just hanging off, like the
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: way that her I think, isn't it one of one
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: of her joints is basically like it's just held it
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: hot byd like a sinew or attendon or something.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: It's very and you look very aggressive, yeah, very aggressive.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: And you can see her eye sockets with the skull.
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: You're seeing her skull because her face is gone. It's
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: one of the most graphic things I've ever seen. But
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: to me, comparing that to anybody else in this you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: Canonical five, the group, nothing like that. It's not he
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: wasn't Jack the smasher. He was Jack the Ripper. Yeah,
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: And that always bothers me. And it's just because the
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: other ones. He's not like destroying the face necessarily, He's
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: not doing anything except you know, disemboweling.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: The throat gets sliced.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they like they throw so it's quiet and then
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: he kills them quickly.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: It's not as practical.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a practical you know process of let's let
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: me kill you as quickly as possible so I can
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: do what I want to do, which is take out
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: your uterus or whatever. Versus Mary Jane, who is slashed,
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: She's she just pummeled, makes sense.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: There's nothing smart about it, like, and that's just like
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: everything about it is so precise with all the other
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: all the other victims, and this is just so much
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: going on, which it's a juxtapossession to the rest of
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: the killings.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: And you think about when they they found Barnet, Joseph Barnett,
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: her partner. He had to identify her body, but he
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: could only do it by the eyes and the year.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: That's all he could do is say, yeah, that's her.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: The color of her dyed hair Hannah or something.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: So like red hair. I think I think it's like she.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: I think there was something about her putting up there
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: was like a red hue to it so she could
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: like a whoosh, so just to could make her seem more.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had to, like that was the only
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: thing he was able to identify her ass, because you can't.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: The mutilation there was the most and most people are
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: trying to say that's because he had the time. He
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: had time. He's in a room where nobody is going
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: to walk in.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: And why wouldn't mutilation be more careful? Yeah, like, if
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: he had the tame, why would he not a very
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: carefully dissected harm entire body and a very careful fashion.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: Why didn't he take his tame if he had the tame?
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Why this is clearly rushed because there's no way you
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: stab somebody slowly like that, not with the monitor in
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: which her face her face is gone.
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: It's just gone.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: There's no joy, it's just sort of hanging.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: It's it's it's one of the worst things I have
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: ever seen. Now, of course he is doing like all
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: the things to the you know, or like stabbing and
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: the you know, heading her intestines, but it's not the
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: surgical precision we were getting accustomed to in these old killings.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: And if you had the time and that is your
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: mo why isn't he just performing a surgery? Why isn't
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: he just doing it with that time he has instead
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: of unless she did something to make him angry or something.
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: But it's just very, very unlike what we saw. So
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: I have always had this little gut instinct, which I
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: guess that's a terrible phrasing right now, gut instinct, But
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: it's instinct it was somebody else that it.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Was not, and it's personal. It's personal. Every single other
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: one of the killings, they were just convenient more than
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: anything else, and this just feels like a very very
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: personal killing. I always think whoever came and came when
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: she was asleep, because her clothes are neatly folded like
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: on her we thing, or.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: A medical examiner or somebody who was like, this is
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: not performed by somebody who had training.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not This is not a by somebody
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: who knows what they're doing.
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Here's like a butcher would have done a better job exactly.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: And he's like, yeah, it's not the same as the
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: other cases where it was very surgical and anatomical. This
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: was just hate. This was pure hate, And I don't
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: know how somebody would escalate that far out of their
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: normal mo of killing somebody.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Again, to me, it's very similar to the murder of
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Carrie Brown. If you look it up it's just she's
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: in this hotel and she's just completely I mean it's
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: not as aggressive as Mary Jane's was, but I still
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: have I always have the feeling that Mary Jane. This
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: is just my personal opinion that someone came in most
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: she was sleeping and they were getting ready to like
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: stop her anyway, but she wakes up, like that's my
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: kind of theory, and there's a little bit of a
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: and this is what causes that little bit of a rage.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: I see a little bit of a rage, that massive rage.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: She wakes up and this person's like, hell no, stop
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: stop stop, stopped up, like no, I mean, these are
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: hardy Victorian women, like at least someone who is known
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: for and if she had defensive winds, you wouldn't know.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: By the time she was just smushed like she's practically
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: liquefied in.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: Places, you know. So it never made sense to me,
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: I know, and every time I never one. I will
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: never think Jack the Ripper was a woman. I know,
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: that's the theory. I will never the strength to battle,
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: but these because these women could have fought back against
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: a woman pretty easily. They're all very, like you said,
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: hardy women. And she had held her own in fights
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: with Barnett before she had made many and many a quarrel.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: I'm with you. I think she was surprised. I think
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: you know, it was she woke up maybe or.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Maybe she didn't wake up and the person was just
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: full of rage anyway, but it was just such a
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: particular It's just there's so much anger behind it. Bothers
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: me so much.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: Bother me too, And I love that we bonded over this,
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: because Yeah, there's the most frustrating thing about the Jack
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: the Ripper case is that there is no way to know.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: Now too much time has passed, it will never be solved.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think they tried to say it was someone.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Oh they try and do it every four years, so like,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: oh it's Humphrey. Oh it was secret. Oh god, if
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: I have to hear another thing about secret to be
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: squear to god.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: I kind of enjoyed the secret stuff. I don't think no.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: I think it's because I was like, oh, this is interesting,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: and then it was like this is the reason why,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: and I went, oh, this makes sense from like a
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: criminological perspective, and I'm like this is great. But then
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: it became like this is definitely the thing, and then
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: this is because of this scarf, and then the DNA
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: is rare, except it wasn't rare.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: And it's just not real, and it's also degraded and
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: Sickret just strikes me as like before he's a true
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: crime fan, before a true crime podcast existed, and he's
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: just like getting an outlet with his art. So I
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: don't know, And that is the most frustrating thing that
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: anybody who says they solved it is full of shit
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: because we will never know who did it.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Nobody has solved anything. We're never going to solve it,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: And like part of me just feels like like I
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: go through this whole period of where I go, I
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: don't I don't give a I don't give a fuck.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't care who he is at this point,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: I don't care, Like I just get these stages where
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I'm just like.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: That's why when I did the series, I did a
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: video on each woman, because I'm like, look, we can
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: talk about the suspects, but the list of suspects is
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: exponentially long, and you know, it's a billion conspiracy theories
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: out there on who it was, but the fact is
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: that whoever it was if it was more than one
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: person who it was five women just out and killed.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: And that's that's the story, not mysterious men with the.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Hate and it's like, why why does this one person
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: modern more than the five lives or more he snuffed out.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: That's why that book, the book five is the five. Yeah,
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: because you're you're talking about their lives and who they were.
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: Mary Kelly had this like fascinating background. I mean, we
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: don't know everything about these women just because of record
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: keeping and you know, their personal life, and a lot
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: of it is anecdotal, so we can't really verify how
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: much of it is true. But she's one who actually
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: she was like traveling around Europe. She she when she
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: worked as a sex work, she was actually like at
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: one point, I'm very very high.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: It was very strange because she went from like this
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: very high area and then ended up in the spectal fields.
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: Alcoholism and the addiction that was there also played a
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: huge part of it. And that's that whole concept of
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: the less dead as they call it, which is the
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: people who are going to not be missed as much.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: A's why we see that today now with oh.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we see it everywhere I mean that were I
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: don't know if you ever listened to the podcast The
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: fall Ling.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: I have heard it's good. I haven't listened to it, though.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: It is very good, and it's all to do with
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: all of these people that have just basically fallen to
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: the cracks in this in this area, and it's just
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: one of those things. Always I'm more interested in those stories.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: And you see that with the like missing murdered Indigenous
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: women and two people in the United States and in Canada,
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: with the that that's those cases are not getting investigated
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: the way they should. So that is a lot of
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: what you see here with Mary Jane Kelly and these
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: other Chapman all these women because they they were considered
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: less dead because of what they did for a living
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: or they're sitch. I know, I know there's some questioning
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: of whether or not they were all sex workers or
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: if it was just like a casual sex worker thing
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: treating favors, and it shouldn't matter. It's just that somebody
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: was going around and praying on women that they thought
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: and they got away with it. And that's the most
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: creating part of the whole thing. And while I I
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: love listening to theories I think that that is the focus,
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: is that somebody just hated women, and that should be
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: the focus and we should be honoring them. But that
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: being said, some of the conspiracy theories are insane. Was
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: like Queen Victoria did it like his grandson. Oh, but
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: that was.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: The worst one was that people that Queen Victoria actually
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: did it hersef. I was like, whattori hard? Really? You
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: think somebody wouldn't have noticed horror walking down the street?
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: Really?
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, your majesty. Let me just now. I did
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: love the oh the movie Murder by Decree with the
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: Christopher Plumber where that's the Sherlock Holmes and that's the
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: theory that they're running with the Mason the Freemasons, very entertaining,
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: But that theory is so silly. It's me number one,
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: she would you know, deny, deny, deny any sort of
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: you know, relationship between a sex worker and her grandson
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: if that were the case. And too, it's just the
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: royals don't get their hands started. We know better. But
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: also there's like the the HH Holmes theory with him
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: being one of the most prolific serial killers in America
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: in history, with his murder Hotel he's a fascinator too.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of rumors that's him, but they have
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: to debunked that time and time again that he was not.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: So you keep seeing this come up and like it's
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: this different as well, like he's a different m O.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: When he was not killing for pleasure, he was killing
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: to sell the skeletons to make money. Terrifying that that
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: was a thing in American history at all. But I
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: mean it's just like hmm, let's dig up a grave
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: or body snatching was a very lucrative business for HH Holmes,
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: but he totally enjoyed the torment. But I don't think
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: it's the same thing at all.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: And H Holmes, it's like Chapman as well, like the
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Lambeth poison. It's like, yeah, the poisoner isn't about to
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: go gutting people.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: He's not a ripper. It's not a reper. I'm glad
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: we have bonded over that because I'm just like I
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: thought I was the only one who thought that, And
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: it's such a part of like marriage and Killy is
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: such a per ripper lore that some people are like
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: hesitant to let it go. But I'm like, there, people.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Get so mad about it when you challenge, you know,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: I hate I actually hate the term ripperologists so much
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: because because as someone who like when I was much younger,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: when I was like a teenager, I was like I
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: wanted to be like a ripperologist. I loved. Like, clearly
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I have issues because I have an obsession with historical
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: true quin something's wrong. Because I was just so into
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: like ripperology. I was into everything about it. Was just fascinating. Again,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: A lot of it is because it's unsolved, you know,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: and there's so many theories and there's so many options,
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: and you know, all these other factors come into it.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: And I was kind of obsessed. I say kind of.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: I was, in fact obsessed. My father bought me a book,
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: a casebook of Jack the Ripper. It had like photos,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: a kid's book of Jack. No, no, no no. My father
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: bought me, at twelve years old, an adult book with pictures.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: It was an adult book. I thought somebody out there
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: was making a children's book the River, and I was like,
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: what is did you imagine I would like that? Oh
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: my blue wrapper and white chapel. It's like a golden book,
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: And I would this isn't my knife. It's too shiny, shiny,
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: let me get it all bloody touch. This isn't it's
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: too rough. I think we may be onto something. If
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: it doesn't exist, we should write it. I mean they have.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: We have come up with a great children's book. Let
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: me tell you, Penguin Random House.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: They have a donner. They have a donner party, you know,
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: full out cannibalism children's book. When my friends showed it
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: to me and I was like, that's actually brilliant.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Donor party. They have a good day. You know. I
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: think that this is.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: One of those things that all women get into, not
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: because of the violence for the women, but because they're
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: like they're so obsessed with the story, and like, why
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: don't I don't even know exactly why, but I feel
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: like we all are like protective of these victims when
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: we look back at it now like that, you know,
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: with the older we get, the more we realize that
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: that is the focus and not this. Yeah, and we
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: have given a moniker. He's got good branding and that's
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: about but really other than that, you know, he may
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: have still been operating somewhere else. He made in it,
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: but we will never know.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: And we'll never know like because violence against women then
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: and who knows even now, Like it was never seen
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: as a big deal. So when he escalated to the
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: point of the first canonical victim, we have no idea
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: who came before, right, Like the worst thing is about
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: the Rippers layings is that they're not even they weren't
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: even the only ones happening in London at the time.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: You had the Torso Martyrs, you had the west Ham Vanishings.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: You know, you had all of these different like killers
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: running at the same time. Like the current place where
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Scotland Yard is now, they found a Torso there, like
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: it's and you can.
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: See it on the Jack the river walking towards thank
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: you right there and here was a body right there
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: and you know it's yeah, part of me felt like
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: I should be ashamed of that, but it was actually
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: very interesting. But yeah, we walked right by the new
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Scotland You're or so there, Oh wonderful, thank you? Not related, but.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like there was even then, several colors were running
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: at the same time. It's not wasn't you You just
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: had better publicity in the penny.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: Why do you think that Jack is the one that
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: everybody's focused on Just the miss can. I could never
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: really put a good answer to that myself.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: It's a very strange thing. I think any any sort
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: of unsolved crime people obsess over because every everybody wants
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: an answer, like it's a It's a very human thing
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: to want to resolve something, to have the information to
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: find out who did it. And I think some people
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: are just so determined to be the parents who fickles
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: out as well.
• 59:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of men, especially of note, it's always men.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 6: They think they know, they think they know, and it
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 6: would not hold up in a court. I mean, the
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 6: forensic evidence long gone. A lot of it is, you know,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 6: no eyewitnesses, there's no DNA on bodies.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: They're not gonna be exhuming any of these victims, and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: I'd say most of them weren't even very well preserved
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: in terms of being you know, yeah, the funeral director,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: because you're not gonna see that. You're just not going
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: to see that that would have been buried. Their forensic
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: evidence is gone. You cannot prove this, And it's fine
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: to theorize, but a lot of times it just gets
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: to the point where people are so passionate that they're
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: correct that it makes me crazy. I'm like, you're not.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: We don't know, we will just never know. But that's
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: not the point.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you've got the people who refuse to
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: hear anything out with their their belief system at all. Huh.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: I wonder what that sounds like. But you know, they're
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: just so, they're just so. It's like a horse with
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: a blinkers and they're steering down this road. They're not
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: seeing anthony either side. It doesn't matter what's coming in.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: There's no peripheral there, and they're just so determined.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: There seems to be a personality type where they're like,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: my theory is right, and they stay so gung ho
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: to that theory that that becomes their personality, Like the
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: Kaminski people with the shaw and I'm like, oh, you
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: mean there was DNA on the shawl of a sex worker?
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: Will all be damned?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: Oh what really?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: Kill rr?
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: No, it's just I find that reparologists specifically do not
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: care about the women.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: No, they don't.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: They don't care about It's like they don't care about
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: what caused them to be there, or why they were
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: in there at the time and what led to their deaths,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: or you know the fact that they were actual human
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: beings with thoughts and emotions and families and everything else
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: that went with that.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: One of my favorite podcasts I think you know this
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: Bummy's last podcast on the Left, and they did a
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: fantastic Jack the Ripper series, and I really appreciate it
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: because it's one of the first time I've ever heard
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: men doing the story where they acknowledged that this was
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: the less dead and in action at that principle of
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: they were sex workers so people didn't care as much.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: But then they also focused a lot of information coming
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: about these women, and I think that's the most important
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: thing to do because at the end of the day,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: it doesn't matter who did it. That guy's a piece
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: of garbage. It's that five women lash trash, trash. Jack's trash.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: That is trash.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: I'm putting out a t shack.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: Oh merch, yes, but him and then those five women
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: lost their real lives for no reason except for nasty,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: misogynistic douchebaggery. That's what I'm douchebaggery. And that's the saddest
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: thing out of this whole thing. But yeah, as as
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: for Mary Jane Kelly, I don't I have I have
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: thoughts on who it is. But I'm like, okay, I'm
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: convinced had to be.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced I had to be the on either the
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: on off partner or that creepy stalker dude. I'm sorry,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: but it's just I.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: Really think it's Hutchinson. But the boyfriend being around, the
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: partner being around also had me. He was around the
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: day before.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: She got killed. But just yeah, just saying, I'm just saying,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: if you're waiting, usually usually the boyfriend did it. And
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: if it's not, they.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: Who was waiting for her forty five minutes war?
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Like I said, the ten bells just waiting, just just
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: hanging outside, the ten bells, just waiting.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: I just saw her, she waited outside for it, and
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: watched her walk off with somebody, why were you doing that?
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: You're doing it's it's cold, it's a cold night. Why
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: would you be standing out there like treasing your balls off?
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: What was that about?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: Watched her go home, he said with why are you
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: following her home? What are you doing that? That's the
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: alarm bells for me In that case, I leaned toward Hutchingson.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: But like I say, we'll never know, and it's just
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: an absolute abysmal loss of life for no reason except
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: for men. Men, men, men, men. It's always and no
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: one will ever be able to commit me check the
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: rippermost woman. Nobody.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, I mean it doesn't there's no way,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: and it's always. And you know what the funny thing is,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: every every theory about it, it's just it's all misogyny,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: even because every concept of a woman doing it is.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Like it was a medwave, it was someone whose husband
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: cheated on her, it's someone who could not have children.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: It's like all of those are very misogynistic like reasons.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's generally not a reason that women
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: would kill, and women are usually more careful killers. Women.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: Poisonous storia. I would buy Queen Victoria before I would
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: buy any of those other reasons. Everybody had stipule list
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: back then. That was just the national pastime.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Everyone had the pox and their brains were starting to
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: rot because of it. Like it's like it's an actual thing.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Look it up. Their brains were rotting, just Victorian brains.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: Victorian brains running away. But that's it's it's infuriating to me.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: And I felt like, yeah, I'm so glad we bonded
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: over there because I felt like I was one of
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: the few people in the world like.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 5: I don't care, I'm I'm with you because I remember
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: I posted a video about it and you were just
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 5: like yes in just so many exclamation marks, and I'm like,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 5: factally someone agrees with me.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: Just like it just felt so wrong, and just Mary
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: Kelly gets so she also gets one of them. She's
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: one of the more romanticized of the five. But she's
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: the star of all the conspiracy theories because she was
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: very beautiful, apparently and very just more fitting victims. So
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: she gets put into these conspiracy wasn't she She was
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: the youngest, she was Apparently she was a high class
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: sex worker, you know, a higher level uppressional and sex
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: worker in France from where she where. She changed her
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: name to Marie Jeannette, which I was like, okay.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: I mean I get it.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: I liked. Yes, she was very popular, but then she
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: had this fall from grace and no, it's like because
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: she's because she's the more beautiful of all the victims,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: probably and she's getting these judge by that. You see
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: this romanticizing of her, putting her in the center of
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: like you know, you've seen the from Hell movies, I'm
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: sure and I have.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: And even the writer of the books, sorry, even Oughnder
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: the book said that, you know, he wrote us to
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: deal with the trauma of his own mother's more dark, Like.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: That's a lot to unpack for him.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: Sorry. Yeah, we don't have much time to talk about this.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: This is.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: Have you Have you tried therapy, buddy? But I'm like, oh, dear.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Romanticizing, have you considered therapy?
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: The answers usually know they haven't, but it's let me
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: just let me just drag down the legacy of another
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: woman romanticized this beyond compared to to the point where
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: she's clearly part of a conspiracy theory, because there's no
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: other reason you feel, not like domestic violence or just
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: sexual violence and sadism.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: It's just not as if this happened, you know, for
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: electoral centuries. I mean obviously millennia, but like really, I mean,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: even like even when you got like the Yorkshire Repper
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: slayings and things like that which happened, and the Blackout killer,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: and it's consistent, it's not as if it's stopped. These
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: crimes keep happening.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: It's just tell as old as time, and at the
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: end of the day, it's the women that's the story
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: they had. They lost their lives for literally no reason
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: other than whatever.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Pleasure because men wanted to hurt them.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they want to hurt them, and they thought because
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: of who they are. But I think it's just important
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: for history creators when we're talking about it, not just
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: and ripperologists. If they're listening, listen to me.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: If you are listening and you aren't sending me.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: Dead, yeah right, if you're not really mean TikTok comments.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, that should be the focus. That should always
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: be the focus for those five women. And I was
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: so grateful when that book came out, the five that
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: I was like, thank God, because now that's what we
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: should be focusing on.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always there was a turning point for me.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know when it was, and it was because
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: I do follow a load of a load of historical
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: true crime. Specifically I feel easier to digest in a way,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: I think just because it is so far back and
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: because pastory is kind of my thing. It's very much
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: we should always see crime as victim first, like victim first,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: perpetrator second, although sometimes that's the same person. The victim
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: and the perpetrator are the same person, which is another
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: whole thing to deal with.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, switch it around, role reversal.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Which is, as I like to call it. Women who
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: poisoned their husbands at the turn of the century, they
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: tend to be both victims and perpetrators to be a
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: reason they gave them marsnak.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's that's the only thing I have ever
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: taken away from this. Not that because at the end
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: of the day, it does not matter who Jack the
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: Ripper was. He is pathetic and we should not. I
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: think it's fine to theorize. I think it's fine, but
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: that should never, never, never be the focus of this
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: entire thing.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Focus should be the women.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: And don't look up those pictures at work, not at work,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: not on a shared computer.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Where you're being surveyed in any way, because.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: Not before med and just not in public transport where
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: people can.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: Don't do it.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: No, nothing like that. Keep that.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: Keep it's just like, don't don't look at any any
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: old time crime photos. Don't look at any of them
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: at all anywhere, no private alone, preferably daylight, just mode.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: We should stop getting stop stop giving them ideas it's probably.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: All right, Okay, that was fun. I think it was fun.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: That was fun. Something like this again in the future,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: when I'm slightly more.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: Probably when you do the Yorkshre Ripper, the Yorkshire Ripper
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: of the Blackout Killer.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: I'll just start I'll just start finding weird let me,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 5: I'll be like emailing you these times.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: We're gonna look up. I've been looking up the Carry
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: Brown because I wasn't familiar to I mean, I had
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: heard about it, but I hadn't seen I just think
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: it's more. Oh, it's pretty similar. Yeah, I think I
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: think it's.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: It's closer to the Mary Jane Kelly slaying than any
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: of the Whitechapel.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: She's kind of positioned the same way too, in terms
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: of the head being to the side and body even.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting and it's very interesting to decide.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Bar for a second, it's they kept calling the person
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: that was in the room with her French ya, but
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Frenchie was a term for anybody foreign. It wasn't necessarily French.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: Could have been Italian, could have been German, could have
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: been Belgium, could have been Dutch. It doesn't matter. They
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: were just French.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: Ye, frenchie.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: And then when you think of let's talk about again,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: but the concept of who who Jack the Ripper was
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of the original theories they either revolve around
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: misogyny or just general's enophobia and anti semitism, because because
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: when you think about Whitechapel was an area for immigrants,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: really people just kind of ended up there and that's
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: where a lot of it. You know, leather Apron became
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper because of spring Heil Jack by Charles Dickens.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: It's a whole thing penal titles.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: Dammit, I love the story of spring Hill Chick like
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: great assess Wing that's too good. But now and you'll
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: see that the people who were pushing used like the
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: anti semitism and xenophobia against.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: People to accuse them of it's just because it's the
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: whole thing of like the whole concept of copy and
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: paste comes from. Like they would literally cut bits at
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: the newspaper, stick it onto the new printer and they
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: would just that's how they would reprint because you know,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: if you've got they didn't have, you know, reporters in
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: every area. It was generally like someone from the Times
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: would come down, but you know they have their own
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: victory and bias and prejudice, you know, and that's very
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: much seen in.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: What was there.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: And a lot of the information we have is like
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: from the illustrated police news and that was just like
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: let's draw pictures of what we think happened. It's a
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: whole it's just a whole mess. Really.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: It's like my actual mic area of specialties.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: That specially is expertise. Jesus, I can't say words. Today
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: is the rise of sensationalism in the use of Prentice
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: propaganda in the late modern period.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: So yellow journalism is just the It's one of my passions,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: just because the fact that I talk about it a
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: lot and got to talk about the Titanic, because what
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: happened after that was that Hurst had it out for
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: Jay Bruce is may they refuting. I don't know what
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: caused the feud. I would love to know, but he
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: immediately like starts lambasting him and he's like he should
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: be charged with murder like in cartoons mad And I'm like, bro,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: that's not that's not journalism.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: Chill, chill.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: So you see that so much, it's kinda it's.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Just like printing it and just like what we can Okay,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: why can you make this up? Yeah? Basically it was
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: just consistently like like that kind of situation. And that's
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: why I find really fascinating because like and Olso, they
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: would just reporters used to show up on crime scenes
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: with the police.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we would just be able to tell everything, so
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: you would get all these details you wouldn't get another
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: places as well, which is that's why it's so timpered
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 4: and controlled now between especially in the States, with.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: Law enforcement hires media liaisons to deal with the press,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: and then they have these things that they're gonna keep quiet.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: They're not gonna let you get on scene.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they want to solve the crime. I mean,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: you'd hope, you hope they want to solve the cray they.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: Do too, but yeah, it's that the press has thankfully
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: come a long way from that. But at the time, Yeah,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: it was just you could just say what you wanted.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, back then, you could just you could just print
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: whatever you wanted, didn't matter, nobody was gonna call you want.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: It, buy a newspaper, and just destroy your enemies. That's
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: that's how that works, and that's how.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: It had at the time. Like when you go back
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: to that sort of in the Victorian era, like some
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: newspapers would run like three weeks and then just end.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: Like newspapers would exist for like a fortnight and go
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: away again like a month. Sometimes they would just come
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: and go because people would just buy newspapers and then
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: try to sell them and then not sell them, or
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: you know, things would just go awry. It was just
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: it's funny. It's just funny, like they would just come
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: and go. So it some things just wouldn't necessarily have
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: to be correct anyway being.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: A journalist now, like and you know, we have this
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: whole different set of ethical guidelines now, but like some
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: I just get so I'm like, how did they even
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: get away with half the stuff they like?
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, some of.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: The stuff making up. It's just they did what they
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: wanted to and they could just say I got a source,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: and you didn't have to identify who the source was
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: or you you know, you just literally lie and it's fine,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: I have a source. Do you I am the source? Ki?
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: They we're just like doing hand puppets, just like.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: What do you think wack is bancas?
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: You know, Oh yes, I guess.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: That, Steph Love. Yeah, it's just the sensationalism with like
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: the Victorian period and you know Edwardian stuff and eight
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: from like the eighteen seventies to the like nineteen thirties, forties,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: fifties was just yeah.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: I think once once it started heading the sixties, things
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: started evening out a little bit.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: But even then it was now, you know.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: The press, I mean I could say that. I say
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: that as if the Daily Mail doesn't exist, Like.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: We have Fox here, it's fine, Fox and Friends, the Enquirer, No,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: that's just ugh anyway, nothing required. My grandmother used to
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: keep those all piled up by the bed, and I'm like, oh, okay,
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: or like the weekly World News with all the alien stories,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: that's good stuff. But yeah, alas, we shall never know
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: who Jack the Ripper is, sadly.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: And I don't think it really matters who he was,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: because he was just a.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: Dick, trash trash. Buy those shirts on our merch something,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: get it on a sticker, put it on your cup.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper was trash. I like it. Hey, Katie,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: that was fun.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: Right, all right, thank you Melissa for joining me.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: You are so welcome. That was fun. We'll find something else.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: Just remember Jack's trash Jack is trash.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: All right, And I am gonna end this now. Great.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: That's my happy pigeon sound because I could not figure
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: out how to do a sound effect. I just don't
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: have any only and I'm very tired because I'm editing
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: this so late at night. And that was the wonderful
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: Melissa fair Lady from The God's Favorites podcast and on TikTok.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: If you're on History Talk, you know her. If you're
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: not on History Talk, go watch her. That is your
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: recommendation for me this week. Watch her tiktoks and her
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: Instagram and listen to her podcast. It's fantastic. So what
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: am I going to say though before we end this
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: episode is I want to talk about one apologize if
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: the sound equality is poor because this is my first
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: time doing a two person thing and trying to edit
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: my end. So and secondly, although we don't know Mary
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: Jane Kelly's I don't know history, her real life, her
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: real name, because all the clues point to the fact
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: that we don't. However, we can at least take solace
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: in the fact that whomever the White Chapel Killer was,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: whoever Jack may be, is someone called Jack Ass. The Ripper.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing about jack Ass the Ripper is that
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: we don't know his real name. Whatever he was trying
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: to do, whatever he was trying to prove, whatever innate
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: hatred he had that he was trying to push out
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: in the world, his name is not known. The man
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: wielding the knife, we don't know who that is, and frankly,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: I think we shouldn't find out because I don't think
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: it matters. I don't think he deserves to have his
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: name known, whether in infamy or not. And at the
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: end of the day, whoever did kill Mary Jane and
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: these other women, whether they were the same person, which
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: I doubt, or multiple people, which I genuinely believe, then
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: they are sad, pathitic men who hate women, and they're
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: not worthy of our time. What is worthy over time
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: is learning the stories of people who suffered, who dealt
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: with this, who had to live in these conditions. And
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: they say history is repeating. You know, those who don't
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: learn history are doomed to repeat it. And that's right,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: and we need to make sure we don't repeat it
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: because people, society, everybody deserves better originalized on the fringes
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: of society. People who are pushed down minorities. They deserve better.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: And if you don't believe that, you are part of
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: the problem. Now go listen to Melissa and her amazing stuff.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go now because it's very late and
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: I need to get to sleep, because I need to
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: edit this and it's so so long. But I am
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: going to say adios au revoir of Where is all
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: my friends?
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: Bye bye, and I am unwell, as you can tell
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: by my voice. I am with the French call lay sick.