Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mom, 2-year-old Bludgeoned Dead in Broad Daylight

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Mom, 2-year-old Bludgeoned Dead in Broad Daylight · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, gorgeous young mom and catch
0:16
Speaker 1: this her two year old baby murdered. Now, I've seen
0:23
Speaker 1: a lot of murders. I've been on a lot of
0:25
Speaker 1: homicide scenes. I've been in a lot of autopsies. But
0:29
Speaker 1: that's a whole another thought process to kill not only
0:36
Speaker 1: the mother, but the two year old baby. Two Why
0:49
Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace to kill a mother and
0:59
Speaker 1: her two year old baby. There's plenty of evidence. Why
1:04
Speaker 1: has this case gone unsolved? Especially from what I'm learning
1:10
Speaker 1: about Elizabeth Watkins the mom. Her whole life was worn't
1:15
Speaker 1: baby church, weren't baby church. She wasn't out hiking, she
1:21
Speaker 1: wasn't out at bars at night, she didn't live in
1:24
Speaker 1: a bad area of town. To the pool of suspects
1:30
Speaker 1: is very narrow. So why has this case gone as
1:34
Speaker 1: they say cold? We want answers. Let's start at the beginning.
1:40
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Tyler Hunt a crime online.
1:46
Speaker 1: When Elizabeth Watkins moved to rent in Washington from California,
1:49
Speaker 1: she had no place to live and no money. She
1:51
Speaker 1: found herself at home at Saint Matthew's Lutheran Church. Church
1:55
Speaker 1: members helped the Watkins find a place to live, a
1:57
Speaker 1: new job, and she soon made new friends. Watkins joined
2:00
Speaker 1: the congregation and donated her time and energy to help
2:03
Speaker 1: pay back the community for what they've done for her.
2:05
Speaker 1: After daughter Nicole was born, Watkins enrolled in a nursing
2:08
Speaker 1: program at Renton Technical College. Wow, this seems like the
2:13
Speaker 1: perfect person. A mom, a baby girl, Nicole, and now
2:18
Speaker 1: she's volunteering at Saint Matthew's Lutheran It sounds like a
2:24
Speaker 1: storybook persona Take a listener. More from Tyler Hunt. Barbara
2:29
Speaker 1: Newton and Elizabeth Watkins made Saturday lunch plans. Barbara was
2:32
Speaker 1: tutoring the single mother with her nursing program. When Watkins
2:35
Speaker 1: didn't show up, Newton called. When no one answered, she
2:38
Speaker 1: decided to go over to her apartment and check in.
2:40
Speaker 1: There was no answer at the door, but Newton could
2:42
Speaker 1: hear the television on inside. That's when Barbara Newton noticed
2:45
Speaker 1: the apartment's sliding glass door was opened just a bit.
2:47
Speaker 1: Newton made her way inside through the back of the
2:49
Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment. In the kitchen, she found the bodies
2:52
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth and Nicole Watkins. I've got an all star
2:56
Speaker 1: panel to break this down and put it back together again,
2:58
Speaker 1: including Barbara, the dear friend of Liz and baby Nicole.
3:05
Speaker 1: He made that horrible discovery Barbara. Before I got any further.
3:12
Speaker 1: What happened. Well, we had plans for me to help
3:17
Speaker 1: her with her math. On that particular day, I was
3:21
Speaker 1: going to be coming to her apartment for lunch, and
3:25
Speaker 1: I called from home because we hadn't set a specific time,
3:31
Speaker 1: so I started calling about eleven, you know, to say, Hey,
3:35
Speaker 1: what time do you want me to come over? And
3:37
Speaker 1: no answer. She didn't have a car, so I knew
3:43
Speaker 1: that maybe there was something wrong with her phone or
3:47
Speaker 1: something like that. So I got in the car and
3:51
Speaker 1: went over to her apartment and I parked. I could
4:00
Speaker 1: I was facing the sliding glass door. She was on
4:03
Speaker 1: the main She was on the main floor, so you
4:06
Speaker 1: could literally walk from the parking lot into her into
4:11
Speaker 1: her sliding glass door. Um I went there. I could
4:16
Speaker 1: hear something and actually I thought it was somebody talking.
4:19
Speaker 1: So I went around on the inside, knocked on the door.
4:23
Speaker 1: No answer, so I thought, oh. Then then I thought, oh,
4:28
Speaker 1: that must be the the TV. So I went back
4:32
Speaker 1: around to the slider and went in and and and
4:42
Speaker 1: that's when I found them. M oh I I called
4:49
Speaker 1: the police. This was before cell phone, so I used
4:52
Speaker 1: her her home phone to call the police. Yeah. Where
5:01
Speaker 1: did you see their bodies on the kitchen floor? Was
5:07
Speaker 1: Liz lying flat on the floor? Yes, so she wasn't
5:14
Speaker 1: sitting up with Nicole? Where underneath her you mean completely
5:23
Speaker 1: underneath her or she was shielding her or what she
5:27
Speaker 1: little Nicole was underneath Liz on the floor? Was Liz
5:33
Speaker 1: on her back or her tummy? She was on her
5:37
Speaker 1: stomach sounds and says she were trying to shield her baby. Yeah,
5:44
Speaker 1: when you went in, was there any doubt in your
5:48
Speaker 1: mind that Liz and Nicole, her two year old daughter,
5:51
Speaker 1: were dead? No doubt, none at all? Why, Oh, this
6:01
Speaker 1: is just I can't. I don't want to describe the
6:04
Speaker 1: seed and please, I understand, I understand, stop right there.
6:07
Speaker 1: But there was no doubt. Just I'll say that there
6:11
Speaker 1: was no doubt. Take a listen to Barb and her
6:16
Speaker 1: nine one one call on the floor that they had
6:27
Speaker 1: been shot or stamped. Arena was on a point. I
6:36
Speaker 1: can literally feel it in my body right now. Um,
6:39
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have chills, um remembering, uh, the day I
6:45
Speaker 1: got the call to take it because I want to
6:48
Speaker 1: help you had who who his agreement? Because I was
6:52
Speaker 1: gonna come here so much and I've been trying to
6:55
Speaker 1: call him find it. Appearance of it's been trauma or
6:59
Speaker 1: what you're hearing barbs, frantic and distraught nine one one
7:04
Speaker 1: call and our friends at Fox Q thirteen there in Seattle.
7:08
Speaker 1: Let me introduce to you our panel, another of Liz
7:13
Speaker 1: Watkins very dear friends. Tammy Oliveri, California prosecutor, author of
7:17
Speaker 1: Red Flags and host of Today with Doctor Wendy KCBQ
7:21
Speaker 1: San Diego. Wendy Patrick, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining
7:26
Speaker 1: us out of the Atlanta jurisdictions at Angela Arnold md
7:31
Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Todd M. Barr, Deputy Medical Examiner pathologist
7:37
Speaker 1: at Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner. That's Cleveland. Cheryl McCullum, Director,
7:43
Speaker 1: founder of the Coldcase Research Institute, forensics expert and you
7:47
Speaker 1: can find her at Coldcasecrimes dot org. But first to
7:50
Speaker 1: Olivia La Voice, reporter for Q thirteen Fox that's in Seattle,
7:55
Speaker 1: and you can find her on Insta at Olivia Underscore
7:58
Speaker 1: at La Voice. Olivia, thank you for being with us.
8:01
Speaker 1: Tell me about the area where Liz and baby Nicole
8:06
Speaker 1: were found dead. Nicole and Liz were living in Renton, Washington.
8:11
Speaker 1: They were living in a quite large apartment complex, but
8:17
Speaker 1: one that a lot of families live in still do
8:21
Speaker 1: today they did back then. You know, it's not it's
8:26
Speaker 1: certainly not a place that I don't think there's any
8:30
Speaker 1: place where you'd ever expect anything like this to happen.
8:33
Speaker 1: But I don't think it is a place where most
8:38
Speaker 1: people would feel unsafe to live, and you certainly wouldn't
8:43
Speaker 1: ever imagine that something so horrific would happen, especially during
8:50
Speaker 1: the day, which is when investigators believe Liz was murdered.
8:55
Speaker 1: Liz in Nicole murder. What day of the week was that? Friday?
9:12
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are taking a
9:17
Speaker 1: very close look at a so called cold case, and
9:20
Speaker 1: I'm really stunned this case has not been resolved. It's
9:24
Speaker 1: the case of a beautiful young mom, Elizabeth Liz Watkins
9:29
Speaker 1: and her baby, two year old Nicole. When Barbara, a
9:34
Speaker 1: dear friend of the two, found them, Liz was trying
9:40
Speaker 1: to shield the baby, with the baby underneath her as
9:44
Speaker 1: if she had thrown herself on top of Nicole to
9:48
Speaker 1: save her. Her attempts did not work. Both of them murdered.
9:54
Speaker 1: Right now, we're talking about Renton, Washington. Where is it?
9:57
Speaker 1: What is it? Well, there's only about ninety people there.
10:00
Speaker 1: It's a city there in King County, Washington. It's a
10:04
Speaker 1: sleeper suburb of Seattle. And this particular apartment was a
10:09
Speaker 1: big complex, very family oriented. I also heard that the
10:14
Speaker 1: sliding glass door was partially opened a sliding glass door.
10:20
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, You know, we grew up with a sliding
10:23
Speaker 1: glass door. Even I can break in a sliding glass
10:27
Speaker 1: door at age nine. They're really not hard to break into,
10:30
Speaker 1: and a lot of times when you shut them and
10:34
Speaker 1: think you've locked them, you really haven't. Correct they are
10:38
Speaker 1: extremely easy to get off the track and go right in.
10:43
Speaker 1: You know. Again, it's an interesting motim entry and exit.
10:48
Speaker 1: It would appear that the killer went in that way
10:50
Speaker 1: and out that way and in somewhat of a hurry,
10:53
Speaker 1: not even bothered to show the door. And it seems
10:56
Speaker 1: like from what the crime team tells us, he took
10:58
Speaker 1: the murder weapon with him. You know, I want to
11:01
Speaker 1: go through what happened to Liz, what happened to baby Nicole,
11:07
Speaker 1: because to you, doctor Angela Arnold. I'm not saying it's
11:10
Speaker 1: any less important. But I see adult homicides every day.
11:15
Speaker 1: I see separately child homicides, usually inflicted by someone in
11:20
Speaker 1: the home. But to see a mother and a two
11:23
Speaker 1: year old child both murdered at the same time, that's
11:26
Speaker 1: actually very rare. And also to me, it speaks to me,
11:31
Speaker 1: it speaks to how mean and dangerous that person is.
11:37
Speaker 1: How I mean, you could leave a baby tossed over
11:39
Speaker 1: to the side and not kill the baby. The baby's
11:42
Speaker 1: never going to be able to identify you, but to
11:45
Speaker 1: be but to be so or horribly mean, to be
11:48
Speaker 1: able to be able to violently kill a baby. You know.
11:52
Speaker 1: I throw around the word mean a lot, but from you,
11:55
Speaker 1: I mean. You are the psychiatrist, and as you have
11:58
Speaker 1: so awful pointed out to me, Doctor Angela, you are
12:01
Speaker 1: also an MDUM note taken, but I was expecting a
12:07
Speaker 1: little more. Let me just say psychiatric other than mean.
12:10
Speaker 1: I know, I certainly don't want to say. I don't
12:12
Speaker 1: want to I think that I think that this was
12:15
Speaker 1: a not a disturbed person, not necessarily a disturbed person.
12:20
Speaker 1: How about something like sociopath. It's my understanding of sociopath
12:26
Speaker 1: as someone that does not abide by the rules of society.
12:30
Speaker 1: They mean nothing, like, hey, nobody's looking, I'll run the
12:33
Speaker 1: red light or um, yeah, I can throw this out
12:36
Speaker 1: the window lettering. That's that rule is for other people,
12:39
Speaker 1: not me. Sure, I'll go in through the sliding glass door.
12:43
Speaker 1: So what are you to knock first? The rules mean nothing?
12:47
Speaker 1: But so sociopath? What about or a psysychopath, a psychopath?
12:51
Speaker 1: Because those those are the people that rules mean absolutely
12:55
Speaker 1: nothing to them, absolutely nothing, and they have no remorse
12:59
Speaker 1: for what they did. What is the individual that cannot
13:02
Speaker 1: empathize or sympathize with the pain and suffering of another psychopath? Exactly?
13:09
Speaker 1: That's how I would describe this person. Because you can
13:14
Speaker 1: get angry with another adult, well I wouldn't, but suddenly
13:18
Speaker 1: shoot them or whop them in the head. But to
13:21
Speaker 1: then kill the child too, that's a whole another can
13:26
Speaker 1: of worms dot dream, you know. And Nancy, I hate
13:28
Speaker 1: to say this, but I also have to watch to
13:31
Speaker 1: you another phrase other than psychopath and sociopath. But I
13:37
Speaker 1: do have to wonder if this person was on some
13:39
Speaker 1: kind of drugs. I don't know. I don't know if
13:40
Speaker 1: there was any theft for money to buy drugs. I
13:44
Speaker 1: don't know if there was a rape, but you know what,
13:46
Speaker 1: we're putting the cart before the horse. Take a listen
13:48
Speaker 1: to oliviaal Voice Q thirteen. An autopsy determined Liz and
13:53
Speaker 1: two year old Nicole had been bludgeoned to death with
13:56
Speaker 1: an unknown weapon never found, seemingly brought to the scene
14:00
Speaker 1: and taken with them by the killer. Investigators believe the
14:03
Speaker 1: killings took place around five pm the evening before they
14:06
Speaker 1: were found. It would have stealed in light outside. There
14:10
Speaker 1: was no forced entry, no sign of sexual assault, nothing stolen.
14:15
Speaker 1: Aside from the bodies. The apartment was essentially spotless. There
14:19
Speaker 1: was nothing that stood out, which is just super unusual.
14:27
Speaker 1: And I've since then obviously been to more than a handful,
14:32
Speaker 1: and I can't say that I've ever walked in one
14:36
Speaker 1: with that same feeling. It's very interesting to me that
14:40
Speaker 1: the premise is the brought a weapon and took it
14:43
Speaker 1: with him. How do I know that? How do I
14:45
Speaker 1: know that a weapon wasn't found right there on the scene,
14:48
Speaker 1: making this a more spontaneous killer. Guys with me right now.
14:52
Speaker 1: In addition to Liz Watkins dear friend Barbara joining me now.
14:58
Speaker 1: Tammy all a very another very dear friend. Tammy, thank
15:04
Speaker 1: you for being with us. I know that you recall
15:07
Speaker 1: when you learned Liz and Nicole had been attacked. What happened, Well,
15:15
Speaker 1: it was Saturday morning. I was at home. I was
15:18
Speaker 1: currently a preschool teacher for three year olds, and I
15:22
Speaker 1: was preparing my quess for the next week. And a
15:27
Speaker 1: lady that lives in the same apartment complex was I
15:33
Speaker 1: believe her name was glad I think it was Gladys,
15:36
Speaker 1: called me and I answered the phone and said hello,
15:42
Speaker 1: and the first words out of her mouth was I
15:44
Speaker 1: think something. I think Liz has been killed. I was
15:53
Speaker 1: just sorry, I mean, how do you? I was like,
15:56
Speaker 1: what what are you talking about? She said that there
16:00
Speaker 1: was police surrounding the apartment, and I just I just
16:06
Speaker 1: thought I gotta go, and I hung up, and I
16:09
Speaker 1: tried to call Liz and the phone just rang and rang.
16:13
Speaker 1: I called my ex husband, my husband at the time,
16:17
Speaker 1: and told him about the call, and he says, just
16:20
Speaker 1: call Liz. You know, Gladys can get you know, maybe
16:23
Speaker 1: it's not Liz's apartment. Whatever. I tried again, I couldn't
16:27
Speaker 1: get an answer, so I drove to my husband's work
16:29
Speaker 1: and I said, we need to go down to rent
16:31
Speaker 1: And now we were living in Kirkland, Washington at the time,
16:34
Speaker 1: about twenty minutes from Renton. We drove down there, pulled
16:39
Speaker 1: into the parking lot and there was police tape and
16:44
Speaker 1: police officers everywhere. I went up to the first officer
16:49
Speaker 1: I could find and told him who I was, and
16:53
Speaker 1: they said that they believed my friend had been a
16:55
Speaker 1: victim of Bahamas side and when I asked about the baby,
16:58
Speaker 1: all they would say is if there was anyone in
17:01
Speaker 1: the apartment, they would have been removed. And it went
17:05
Speaker 1: from there. I went through They had me go through
17:08
Speaker 1: her address book with them with an officer a detective,
17:13
Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, explain to them who everybody
17:15
Speaker 1: was in the book. When the last time I saw him,
17:22
Speaker 1: and I believe it was eight o'clock, it was dark,
17:28
Speaker 1: I do know it was dark by the time we
17:30
Speaker 1: finally found out about the baby. I believe they were
17:32
Speaker 1: waiting till Pastor Kirby got there, because it was Pastor
17:35
Speaker 1: Kirby that told me about the baby, not the police.
17:53
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace, Timmy Elavery I can tell
18:01
Speaker 1: you and Barbara still deeply distraught as you describe the
18:07
Speaker 1: death of Liz Watkins and her baby Nicole. Find it
18:12
Speaker 1: very difficult to believe this case remains unsolved. Using a
18:17
Speaker 1: sliding glass door, I think of all the prints a bludgeoning,
18:23
Speaker 1: that's not easy. Did the touch something? Were there any
18:27
Speaker 1: security cameras in the area? Tammy All a very one
18:33
Speaker 1: of Liz's very best friends. Could you describe that apartment
18:38
Speaker 1: complex to me? Was it family oriented or were there
18:41
Speaker 1: people out dealing dope on the playground? No, I mean
18:45
Speaker 1: it was family oriented. There were I believe some single
18:51
Speaker 1: people there. I mean it was a lower priced complex,
18:58
Speaker 1: so you know, I wasn't a real expensive unit. I
19:03
Speaker 1: have to honestly say that there were some people that
19:06
Speaker 1: lived in the area that in that building that I
19:11
Speaker 1: wasn't comfortable with, and I will to this day, and
19:14
Speaker 1: I always have said that the family that called me
19:18
Speaker 1: about it, I wasn't comfortable with them. Neither were my children.
19:24
Speaker 1: It's funny today, my oldest son, who at the time
19:27
Speaker 1: was fifteen and isn't forty now, he did not care
19:33
Speaker 1: for that family. He said that their son made him
19:37
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable. What do you mean by that? Uncomfortable in
19:40
Speaker 1: what way that he was strange just I don't know.
19:44
Speaker 1: I tried to get Alan to elaborate, but they want
19:46
Speaker 1: to talk about what you're saying, because you know, serone
19:51
Speaker 1: McCall him, You've raised two children and I'm doing it
19:53
Speaker 1: right now. They have certain friends that I feel. There's
19:59
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with them, They're perfectly fine. There's just something
20:03
Speaker 1: about them. I'm afraid for the twins to hang around
20:06
Speaker 1: with them because I feel that they'll get the twins
20:10
Speaker 1: to do something crazy like run down the middle of
20:14
Speaker 1: the road or jumping off of a roof into somebody
20:19
Speaker 1: else's pool, or some crazy something. I don't I can't
20:23
Speaker 1: put my finger on it. But you know that gut
20:26
Speaker 1: feeling that you have. Do you hear what Tammy's saying.
20:31
Speaker 1: I tell people time listen to it. Listen to that
20:35
Speaker 1: gut feeling. Because here's the thing that we know about
20:37
Speaker 1: this scene, Nancy. We know that you and I the
20:43
Speaker 1: murder of a two year old is extremely rare, and
20:48
Speaker 1: it is off the charts rare when it's not domestic.
20:54
Speaker 1: So we have a situation where the mother is murdered,
21:00
Speaker 1: is the child in a place in broad daylight where
21:04
Speaker 1: anybody associated with those same apartments would know how to
21:08
Speaker 1: enter in that side glass store. So to me, you've
21:13
Speaker 1: got to look at people associated with that complex more
21:16
Speaker 1: than her church or her work or where she was
21:19
Speaker 1: studying to become a nurse. You've got to start there
21:23
Speaker 1: where it happened. That's what I've always thought, is that
21:26
Speaker 1: Barbara or Tammy, Dammy Willy and Tammy. I just I mean,
21:30
Speaker 1: I don't honestly know how Liz met that family unless
21:33
Speaker 1: she met them there in the apartment. I mean she
21:36
Speaker 1: hadn't lived there about a year. It is possible. I
21:39
Speaker 1: mean I met her through met them through Liz. Is
21:43
Speaker 1: there a man in this scenario? Was there a father
21:46
Speaker 1: or an adult brother? A father and a son? Because
21:49
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, let me go to doctor Todd Barr
21:51
Speaker 1: joining us, doctor Todd and bar Jeffe Medical Examiner, Cuyahoga County.
21:56
Speaker 1: That's Cleveland. Never a lack of business there in Cleveland
22:01
Speaker 1: in the morgue, doctor Barr, and I say that in
22:05
Speaker 1: a loving and kering way. Having worked inner city Atlanta,
22:09
Speaker 1: doctor Barr, the bludgeoning death of a grown woman and
22:14
Speaker 1: a child. I'm just telling you this is a male
22:17
Speaker 1: per I don't need to see his DNA or a
22:20
Speaker 1: seaman to know this as a man. And I base
22:22
Speaker 1: that on thousands and thousands of cases compiled in a
22:27
Speaker 1: book Method and Assessment of Homicide and Suicide, plus anecdotally,
22:31
Speaker 1: I've never once had, in all the murder cases I prosecuted, investigated,
22:36
Speaker 1: or covered, I'm thinking back now, had a female kill
22:40
Speaker 1: another female via bludgeoning. Absolutely. I just recently had a
22:45
Speaker 1: case here in Cleveland of a five year old boy
22:47
Speaker 1: that was bludgeoned to death by a baseball bat by
22:50
Speaker 1: his father. And it's just harm. May he rot in hell?
22:55
Speaker 1: By the way. Amen? Amen? You know any anybody that
23:00
Speaker 1: could take an object to a child, an innocent child.
23:04
Speaker 1: And I say the same thing about pet because I'm
23:07
Speaker 1: a pet lover as well, but anyone that would torture
23:11
Speaker 1: or harm an innocent child is just I just my
23:16
Speaker 1: head just explodes thinking about it, you know. Wendy Passion,
23:19
Speaker 1: California prosecutor author read Flags today with doctor Wendy every
23:23
Speaker 1: Day Caseybeke San Diego. Wendy, you know it's a man, right.
23:27
Speaker 1: Do we even need to discuss that any further? You
23:29
Speaker 1: got a mail purp, Yeah, No, I agree, and you know,
23:32
Speaker 1: to narrow it down even further. When you hear that
23:34
Speaker 1: it wasn't a crime of opportunity, no sexual assault, nothing stolen,
23:39
Speaker 1: you would probably look at the men that lived in
23:41
Speaker 1: that complex before anything else, most of whom I would
23:44
Speaker 1: imagine were questioned right afterwards about their whereabout whether somebody
23:49
Speaker 1: had an alibi. So you would think that we could
23:51
Speaker 1: really have narrowed this down a lot further than we
23:54
Speaker 1: have in the year since this occurred. I know, I
23:56
Speaker 1: hate that this case has gone called back to Barbara,
23:59
Speaker 1: a very dear friend who attended Saint Matthew's Lutheran Church
24:03
Speaker 1: along with Liz Watkins and her little baby girl, Nicole.
24:07
Speaker 1: Do you recall we're there cameras, security cameras in the apartment.
24:12
Speaker 1: I do not recall that at all. The apartment itself,
24:18
Speaker 1: that complex is huge. There's hundreds of apartments there, and
24:25
Speaker 1: her apartment was right on the ground floor, right off
24:29
Speaker 1: to the parking lot, very accessible when you come in
24:34
Speaker 1: the driveway. Hate that. I hate it, Barbara, and I
24:38
Speaker 1: write in my book, don't be a victim. It's the
24:40
Speaker 1: name of the book. Whether you're at a hotel, A
24:43
Speaker 1: B and B, or finding an apartment, trying not to
24:47
Speaker 1: be on the ground floor. It's like I just walks in,
24:52
Speaker 1: like he's walking right into his own kitchen. And right
24:57
Speaker 1: after this happened, they took out that sliding glass store
25:00
Speaker 1: and made it just a solid wall to that particular apartment.
25:04
Speaker 1: You know, I also know that the walls in that apartment.
25:06
Speaker 1: I learned this through some supplemental police reports that I read.
25:10
Speaker 1: The walls in that apartment to this very day are
25:13
Speaker 1: not thick. You can stand out in the hallway and
25:16
Speaker 1: you can hear conversations in two or three different apartments,
25:20
Speaker 1: according to the detectives, But nobody heard any screaming or
25:25
Speaker 1: any raised voices. Is that right, olivial voice, Yes, that's correct.
25:31
Speaker 1: No one, No one heard anything, which of course seems
25:35
Speaker 1: extremely unusual. And one investigator on the case has voiced
25:41
Speaker 1: to me that he does not believe that that that
25:43
Speaker 1: just does not seem possible. So to think that you
25:48
Speaker 1: have not just one, but it would appear several several
25:54
Speaker 1: different residents of that apartment for whatever reason not coming
25:58
Speaker 1: forward with information is you know, just incredibly unsettling. And Tommy,
26:03
Speaker 1: are you saying that people within the apartment complex were
26:06
Speaker 1: not helpful to police. They were not. They were not.
26:09
Speaker 1: There's no substantial leads to this day really have ever
26:15
Speaker 1: been developed, and that is largely because of that Tammy Olivary.
26:20
Speaker 1: She was a school correct nursing school. And had she
26:25
Speaker 1: made friends or was she concerned about anyone at school
26:29
Speaker 1: possibly stalking her or trying to go out with or
26:32
Speaker 1: anything like that. Not at all. And the reason I
26:35
Speaker 1: asked Tammy Olivery is because there's no rape, there's nothing stolen.
26:40
Speaker 1: I wonder if someone had been rejected or thought they
26:43
Speaker 1: had been rejected. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Guys, we're
27:01
Speaker 1: talking about the brutal murders of a young mom, Elizabeth
27:05
Speaker 1: Liz Watkins and her little precious girl who I'm looking
27:08
Speaker 1: at right now and what I believe to be an
27:12
Speaker 1: Easter photo because she's got on this beautiful dress and
27:16
Speaker 1: she's holding up a pink Easter egg that matches her
27:20
Speaker 1: pink floral outfit, just dripping with lace and wuffles and
27:25
Speaker 1: very well taking care of. Her hair is shiny and clean,
27:29
Speaker 1: she's smiling, her eyes are bright and shiny. She her
27:33
Speaker 1: little fingernails are done perfectly. Why am I saying that?
27:37
Speaker 1: Because I see here that the baby is well taken
27:40
Speaker 1: care of. I mean, I know it's hard to believe,
27:43
Speaker 1: but Cheryl, isn't this true? You know, I have covered
27:44
Speaker 1: cases where and the photos that children have bruises on
27:47
Speaker 1: their face, they look be draggle, their hair is unkempt,
27:51
Speaker 1: their clothes like raggedy and even dirty. I mean, at
27:55
Speaker 1: least I see here this child is being taken care of.
27:58
Speaker 1: The mother loved the child, loved so much she probably
28:01
Speaker 1: gave her life trying to save the child. That's what
28:04
Speaker 1: it would appear to me, Nancy. I think it's really
28:06
Speaker 1: important that we point out the position the victims were in.
28:11
Speaker 1: If her mama was shielding her and the baby was
28:14
Speaker 1: still bludging to death, that means they were both hit
28:17
Speaker 1: very quickly, almost simultaneously. So that's something to consider. The
28:23
Speaker 1: other thing to consider is this victim. The mamma was
28:27
Speaker 1: thirty six. It's not like she was a twenty one
28:29
Speaker 1: year old college student. I mean, this was not somebody
28:32
Speaker 1: that was going out to nightclubs and you know, go
28:35
Speaker 1: to different places. She was at the Lutheran church the
28:39
Speaker 1: majority of her free time. That's where she was at,
28:42
Speaker 1: and the baby was with her all the time. And
28:46
Speaker 1: I think again, the suspect pool is very small. And
28:49
Speaker 1: let me just say, we don't know for sure that
28:52
Speaker 1: it was a grown man. I didn't say Grahame. Could
28:55
Speaker 1: have been a team No, no, I'm saying this in general.
28:57
Speaker 1: We don't know it was a man. It could have
28:59
Speaker 1: been a evenil. Okay, there are male juveniles. Oh of
29:03
Speaker 1: course you said, I don't know. I want some me in.
29:05
Speaker 1: It could have been a juvenile. Yes, Can we just
29:09
Speaker 1: at least agree it's a male m a L. Yes,
29:14
Speaker 1: I agree it's a male. Guys, take a listen to
29:17
Speaker 1: our cut ten Q thirteen Fox then and now there
29:20
Speaker 1: was a disturbing lack of evidence. If it's a crime
29:23
Speaker 1: of passion, they they the suspect traditionally makes a whole
29:27
Speaker 1: bunch of mistakes, right, because they're in the throes of
29:31
Speaker 1: this anger or whatever it is that's driving them, and
29:34
Speaker 1: so there's there's pieces of themselves. If there was a fight,
29:41
Speaker 1: there's there's blood splatter, and there's hair, and there's weapons,
29:45
Speaker 1: and there's things turned over and right, there's just a
29:47
Speaker 1: bunch of other things that weren't in this crime scene.
29:55
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that crime of passion. Barbara Long time
30:01
Speaker 1: friend of Les's attend Saint Matthew's Lutheran Church with her
30:06
Speaker 1: crime of passion. Somebody was so angry or rejected for
30:12
Speaker 1: whatever reason. Why would a male perp and there's no boyfriend,
30:18
Speaker 1: there's no ex husband in the scenario, we know the
30:21
Speaker 1: ex has a rock solid alibi. Who would have been
30:25
Speaker 1: so angry they would have killed them both by killing
30:29
Speaker 1: the child. That suggests to me, Barbara, the child knew
30:33
Speaker 1: the killer, and the killer did not want to be identified.
30:37
Speaker 1: You know that that's part of this hole. The horribleness
30:42
Speaker 1: of this is she was the most wonderful person in
30:46
Speaker 1: the world. There is nobody that you can possibly think of.
30:52
Speaker 1: She didn't have any fears of any specific people. There
30:57
Speaker 1: was nobody stalking her. There was nobody that she voiced
31:02
Speaker 1: that she was afraid of. Let me ask you a question, Barbara.
31:05
Speaker 1: She started to say religiously, but that would sound almost
31:10
Speaker 1: like a pun. She was extremely devoted to volunteering and
31:15
Speaker 1: her work there at Saint Matthew's Lutheran She was also
31:18
Speaker 1: was she not in school? Yes, she was going to
31:22
Speaker 1: school to be a LPN And did she also have
31:26
Speaker 1: a job. No, So who kept the baby when she
31:30
Speaker 1: was in school. The school itself had a daycare. So
31:34
Speaker 1: between that, it's clear to me you've got two pools
31:39
Speaker 1: of suspects, Wendy Patrick, church and school. Well, you would
31:45
Speaker 1: have church were to That's right, That's where I was
31:49
Speaker 1: going with this, because between church and school, it sounds
31:52
Speaker 1: like there would have been somebody that would have known
31:54
Speaker 1: something about a stalker, about somebody that had been threatening her.
31:57
Speaker 1: And in terms of the personnelity that some of your
32:01
Speaker 1: other guests have been talking about, to kill a two
32:04
Speaker 1: year old child, a two year old's not going to
32:05
Speaker 1: recognize an adult or be able to articulate who it was.
32:09
Speaker 1: That just demonstrates that degree of evil, Nancy, that you
32:12
Speaker 1: and I sometimes told juries. When we can't explain what
32:15
Speaker 1: the motive could have been, if we can't narrow it
32:17
Speaker 1: down to anybody with the grudge, a crime of passion,
32:20
Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity, sometimes we're just left with that, sadly,
32:24
Speaker 1: And when you think about it, to doctor Todd Barr
32:27
Speaker 1: joining US Deputy Medical Examiner Cleveland, Todd d Bar, you
32:31
Speaker 1: can't just like hit somebody, even with a bat, and
32:36
Speaker 1: it killed them. To murder someone by bludgeoning, you've got
32:41
Speaker 1: to be trying to hit a home run. I mean
32:43
Speaker 1: it takes considerable force. Well, And what strikes me about
32:47
Speaker 1: this particular case, Nancy, is that it sounds like the
32:51
Speaker 1: apartment was relatively spotless, and this was focused mainly just
32:55
Speaker 1: in the kitchen and nothing was overturned, there were nothing
33:00
Speaker 1: was missing. So this was a person that was laser
33:02
Speaker 1: focused on what they were doing. And that gives me
33:05
Speaker 1: another question regarding what you just said, thank you, doctor
33:08
Speaker 1: Barr Tammy. When you come through, when you would come
33:12
Speaker 1: through the sliding glass door, which I believe the point
33:15
Speaker 1: of it. You can't believe that he get Prince off
33:17
Speaker 1: the door, but this is such a great surface for Prince.
33:21
Speaker 1: Do you go straight into the kitchen from there? No? No,
33:24
Speaker 1: you go you went into the living room, and then
33:26
Speaker 1: what the kitchen was by the front door. It was
33:30
Speaker 1: a small like galley style kitchen where if you walked
33:33
Speaker 1: into the front door, as soon as you went to
33:35
Speaker 1: the left was the entry into the little kitchen. To
33:38
Speaker 1: the right would have went to the hallway to the
33:40
Speaker 1: bathroom and there one bedroom was Liz closed. Yes, so
33:46
Speaker 1: there was no sex as set. But I was wondering
33:48
Speaker 1: if she's just gotten on the shower. Had somebody been
33:51
Speaker 1: watching her? So ground level floor, So her bathroom I
33:57
Speaker 1: believe had a window in it. Correct. No, No, the
34:01
Speaker 1: bathroom did not have to have one of those tiny
34:03
Speaker 1: windows in it. No, the bathroom was an interior bathroom.
34:08
Speaker 1: It had no windows. Good to know this sounds like
34:12
Speaker 1: an angry person that lived in the area. They had
34:16
Speaker 1: to know or from either the apartment, the church, or
34:21
Speaker 1: the school. This case has left a lasting impact on
34:26
Speaker 1: everyone connected. Take a listen to our cut eight, our
34:31
Speaker 1: Forensic Q thirteen. Going to those scenes changes you back then,
34:35
Speaker 1: Sergeant Russell Radkey was a new detective task with helping
34:39
Speaker 1: process crime scenes. It was horrific. I mean, there's no
34:42
Speaker 1: other way to describe it. And I was a single,
34:46
Speaker 1: widowed father with a child at the same age. So
34:50
Speaker 1: when you talk about walking into a crime scene and
34:53
Speaker 1: it's not like a standard crime scene, right, there's a
34:58
Speaker 1: component of how do I even separate out my own
35:02
Speaker 1: stuff from what I'm seeing in front of me at
35:05
Speaker 1: this point? See it? It was awful. These kids really
35:10
Speaker 1: loved to marvari. Yeah, did and also take a listen
35:16
Speaker 1: to more Cut eleven. To complicate things even further, detectives
35:22
Speaker 1: couldn't find anything in Lizza's life, past or present that
35:26
Speaker 1: would have put her in the crosshairs with any dangerous people.
35:29
Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense. There's nothing you can no roads
35:32
Speaker 1: you can follow. They could give you an answer. No debts, drugs,
35:37
Speaker 1: or love affairs. Lizza's life seemed to revolve around Nicole,
35:40
Speaker 1: church and school. The few people who could classify as
35:44
Speaker 1: an obvious suspect, like an ex Nicole's father or family
35:48
Speaker 1: were ruled out through solid alibis. Who would do this through?
35:51
Speaker 1: There was no reason she was She was just a kind,
35:55
Speaker 1: wonderful person who didn't make any trouble. I mean, she
35:58
Speaker 1: was just a baby. Who would kill a baby? Two
36:04
Speaker 1: year old that couldn't have possibly harmed anyone? I mean
36:09
Speaker 1: she was too young to be able to to describe
36:13
Speaker 1: the person. I mean, but who would who would kill
36:16
Speaker 1: a baby? Who would kill a baby? There is a
36:20
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollar reward to help solve the mystery surrounding
36:25
Speaker 1: the death of Elizabeth Liz Watkins and her little baby
36:29
Speaker 1: Nicole just two years old one eight hundred two to
36:33
Speaker 1: two tips one eight hundred two two to eight four
36:39
Speaker 1: seven seven ten thousand dollar reward. Olivia where does the
36:46
Speaker 1: case stand now? Well, Nancy, we're really hoping that that
36:50
Speaker 1: increased reward has helped get new tips. It's the reward
36:56
Speaker 1: is new. We're not positive exactly what all new information
37:03
Speaker 1: has developed, but we're hopeful that that the new attention
37:09
Speaker 1: on the cases really made some people think twice about
37:12
Speaker 1: continuing to remain quiet all this time later. Cheryl McCollum,
37:16
Speaker 1: what can be done now you're at the director at
37:18
Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute, Nancy, I believe the connection
37:22
Speaker 1: with the killer is zero except for geography. I think
37:26
Speaker 1: there's a real chance that this person, when they committed
37:28
Speaker 1: this crime, was a juvenile. So what law enforce it
37:32
Speaker 1: needs to do in this type of attack. He probably
37:36
Speaker 1: grabbed the victim in some way, struggled with her a bit.
37:41
Speaker 1: His touch. DNA could still be on her clothing. That
37:44
Speaker 1: has got to be tested. The other thing they need
37:47
Speaker 1: to do is they need to look at rapes even
37:49
Speaker 1: ten years later and go back to see who had
37:53
Speaker 1: a connection with that apartment complex. We wait as justice
37:56
Speaker 1: unfolds again. A ten thousand dollar were now in place
38:01
Speaker 1: Tipline one eight one hundred and two two two eight
38:04
Speaker 1: four seven seven Nancy Grace Crime story signing off good
38:08
Speaker 1: bye friend,