Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Old School Crime: The Rise and Fall of Bertie Kidd | Phillip Short

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Old School Crime: The Rise and Fall of Bertie Kidd | Phillip Short · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: A pot production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm your Host
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. In July this year, I attended the funeral
0:20
Speaker 2: of Bertram Douglas Kidd, who was one of Australia's most
0:23
Speaker 2: complete crooks. A safe breaker, armed robber, race fixer, dedicated
0:28
Speaker 2: corruptor of police and most likely a multiple murderer who
0:32
Speaker 2: killed out of convenience or revenge. It didn't much matter.
0:36
Speaker 2: I'd met kid within the walls of Gold and Supermac's
0:38
Speaker 2: prison before his release from jail.
0:41
Speaker 3: One of Australia's oldest criminals, eighty one year old Robert
0:45
Speaker 3: Bertie Kidd, says he'll fight a plan to deport him
0:48
Speaker 3: back to his native United Kingdom when he's released from
0:51
Speaker 3: prison next month.
0:53
Speaker 2: He was a much reduced figure. Jail had essentially broken him.
0:58
Speaker 2: In fact, it was hard to imagine that this little
1:00
Speaker 2: old man had once been one of Australia's most ruthless crooks,
1:05
Speaker 2: developed a reputation as a master safecutter, armed robber, burglar
1:09
Speaker 2: and standover man.
1:11
Speaker 3: He was a well rounded, violent criminal who'd take any
1:13
Speaker 3: opportunity without concern for the welfare of the community of
1:16
Speaker 3: New South Wales.
1:18
Speaker 2: He was serving a long stretch for a series of
1:20
Speaker 2: vicious home invasions, but his run had finished in Queensland
1:24
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven when he was arrested during a
1:27
Speaker 2: robbery of a chemical factory in Brisbane. He was already
1:31
Speaker 2: sixty two at the time, an age when most crooks
1:34
Speaker 2: are leaving this to younger villains, but here he was
1:37
Speaker 2: shooting that with police before wisely surrendering. Police called Kid
1:42
Speaker 2: one of the country's most dangerous old school villains. He
1:47
Speaker 2: told me he'd gotten ay with many things in his
1:49
Speaker 2: criminal career, and now he's dead. The stories will be told.
1:54
Speaker 2: I was contacted by one of the police officers who
1:56
Speaker 2: put Kid away in nineteen ninety seven, and he's agreed
1:59
Speaker 2: to fill in the gaps of Kid's CV, including several
2:03
Speaker 2: unsolved murders and disappearances. It's my pleasure to welcome forming yourself.
2:07
Speaker 2: I was Detective Philip Short to the Real Crime Studio,
2:10
Speaker 2: did I phil there?
2:11
Speaker 1: You?
2:12
Speaker 2: Adam, tell me how did Bert Kidd rank amongst the
2:16
Speaker 2: villains you dealt with over your long career.
2:19
Speaker 1: He was certainly probably the most vicious and violent criminal,
2:23
Speaker 1: for sure, one hundred percent.
2:25
Speaker 2: And how did you first come to be involved in
2:28
Speaker 2: taking him down.
2:29
Speaker 1: I was at the organized crime branch and Kid came
2:32
Speaker 1: to the attention of police when we had information that
2:36
Speaker 1: he was going to import some automatic machine pistols into Australia.
2:40
Speaker 1: The job wasn't handed to me, it was handed to
2:43
Speaker 1: another team and they had a strategy of introducing an
2:47
Speaker 1: undercover officer into kids orbit, trying to get me into
2:50
Speaker 1: his criminal mendew and trying to get some more information
2:54
Speaker 1: on this importation. And how I came to be involved
2:58
Speaker 1: is that in mid nine to ninety seven a police
3:01
Speaker 1: force was being reorganized under a new commissioner. An organized
3:05
Speaker 1: ryan was being shut down and everyone was being transferred away.
3:09
Speaker 1: So I was still there and the job was just
3:11
Speaker 1: handed to me to be the case officer of it.
3:13
Speaker 1: So I inherited the job about mid nineteen ninety seven.
3:17
Speaker 2: Okay, and what was your strategy on approaching Kid Well.
3:22
Speaker 1: The strategy was to continue with the undercover officer being
3:25
Speaker 1: introduced to Kim's orbit and to get that done, he
3:28
Speaker 1: was introduced to a fellow by name a Gary Page.
3:32
Speaker 1: Our Page is an old school crook who had done
3:34
Speaker 1: time for manslaughter and he was a close associate of Kid.
3:38
Speaker 1: So our undercover officer had a number of meetings with
3:41
Speaker 1: Page over the months. They were productive and that we
3:45
Speaker 1: bought some one out slots of heroin off Page and
3:50
Speaker 1: they were of a fairly high purity, so there probably
3:52
Speaker 1: straight from the importer. And we also purchased two Smith
3:56
Speaker 1: and Wesson revolvers. Now those guns had the serial numbers
4:00
Speaker 1: filed off them, but through forensic we were able to
4:03
Speaker 1: find out what those numbers will there, and it turns
4:05
Speaker 1: out they were stolen during an armor guard robbery some
4:08
Speaker 1: years earlier. So we had had some success, but the
4:12
Speaker 1: undercover officer never got to make Kid.
4:15
Speaker 2: Because Bertie was very, very cautious about undercovers. He dealt
4:19
Speaker 2: with police a lot. I mean, in his early days
4:21
Speaker 2: in Victoria, he actually had police on his payroll who
4:24
Speaker 2: would tell him where to find the juicy safe that
4:27
Speaker 2: he'd liked to break into. So he understood police procedures,
4:31
Speaker 2: he understood the use of undercovers. So you had to
4:34
Speaker 2: approach him with a high level of skill and caution,
4:37
Speaker 2: and we did.
4:38
Speaker 1: We didn't surveil him with physical surveillance because he was
4:41
Speaker 1: under counter surveillance all the time. He wasn't lazy, he
4:44
Speaker 1: wasn't a lazy crook. He was always on and he
4:48
Speaker 1: wouldn't talk over the phone, or if he met with
4:51
Speaker 1: another crook, he'd meet in the park or go to
4:53
Speaker 1: a park. So it was very hard to get anything
4:57
Speaker 1: on him.
4:58
Speaker 2: And so you have a stroke of luck in that
5:01
Speaker 2: your team gets transferred to the NCAA, the National Crime Authority,
5:05
Speaker 2: which was always a good thing back in the day
5:06
Speaker 2: because they had all the resources, plenty of money, plenty
5:09
Speaker 2: of guns, plenty of technology. What was the reason the
5:13
Speaker 2: NCAA got involved.
5:14
Speaker 1: Well, initially, organized crime was shut down and we were
5:18
Speaker 1: transferred to another investigative unit called the Special Investigation Unit,
5:24
Speaker 1: and we continued on there with our investigation. And we
5:28
Speaker 1: were only there for about two or three weeks and
5:29
Speaker 1: we got an overnight transferred to the NCAA myself from
5:33
Speaker 1: the whole team, and that was fortuitous, and that we
5:37
Speaker 1: were transferred to a small office that was run by
5:40
Speaker 1: an officer who was a detective chief and inspect there
5:43
Speaker 1: at the time called Bob Ingst. He's pretty well known
5:46
Speaker 1: amongst police circles, very famous, very competent detective and he
5:50
Speaker 1: had a couple of other COVID investigations running so we
5:54
Speaker 1: just fitted into that office and we continued as we
5:59
Speaker 1: were Because prior to moving to the National Crime Authority,
6:03
Speaker 1: I considered that the job was burned because our undercover
6:06
Speaker 1: officer went a bit off script. He and Page went
6:09
Speaker 1: to the city to meet with a well known heroine importer.
6:14
Speaker 1: He was faced to go there and meet, get what
6:16
Speaker 1: information he could, and then return, get in his own
6:19
Speaker 1: car and leave. Unfortunately, came out with Page. Two other
6:23
Speaker 1: males got in a different car and left. Our physical
6:28
Speaker 1: surveilance wasn't set up to take another car away, so
6:31
Speaker 1: we lost him for a short time. So we had
6:33
Speaker 1: to activate the sirens and the surilans cars and try
6:36
Speaker 1: and locating the people in the car with their undercover officer.
6:40
Speaker 1: They heard the approaching sirens stop the car, got out
6:44
Speaker 1: and walked away, so I think their antennas are up
6:47
Speaker 1: that there was something on after that. I think it
6:49
Speaker 1: was too dangerous to send the undercover back.
6:52
Speaker 2: In right because Page seemed to twig that there might
6:56
Speaker 2: be a listing device on his phone, and I presume
6:59
Speaker 2: was telling his mates, including Kid.
7:02
Speaker 1: Well. I don't think Page twigged. I think Kid told
7:04
Speaker 1: him because we were only the National Crime Authority for
7:08
Speaker 1: a number of days when Page was on his phone
7:11
Speaker 1: telling people that he thought there was a bug in
7:14
Speaker 1: his phone. So he left the unit and returned a
7:18
Speaker 1: short time later, and he went as straight where a
7:20
Speaker 1: listing device was hidden. Now, you wouldn't have known where
7:24
Speaker 1: it was. You wouldn't have found it unless you were
7:26
Speaker 1: told where it was. So I'm assuming that kid had
7:29
Speaker 1: some intel where the listing device was.
7:32
Speaker 2: Things just go from bad to worse because you arrest
7:35
Speaker 2: Page on some drug and firearms offenses and the following
7:39
Speaker 2: day your unit gets raided and staff detained.
7:42
Speaker 1: Why was that, well, we were rated at the National
7:46
Speaker 1: Crime Authority. The Special Investigation Unit was raided unberknownst to us.
7:50
Speaker 1: There was a Police Integrity Commission investigation and internal affairs
7:55
Speaker 1: investigation into a certain staff member there that subsequently left
8:00
Speaker 1: to a pic hearing, and there was only one officer
8:03
Speaker 1: that was found to be corrupted out of the whole group.
8:06
Speaker 1: It really tainted the whole group.
8:08
Speaker 2: So this really throws U spanner in the works. You've
8:11
Speaker 2: now got to go to a new strategy. In October
8:14
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, you get a new informant who was
8:16
Speaker 2: that well.
8:17
Speaker 1: We received information at that time. Already at that time
8:20
Speaker 1: we'd identify whose kids likely team were to commit crying
8:25
Speaker 1: and that was of course Page, but he was under
8:29
Speaker 1: arrest and bar refused. And there was a fellow called
8:31
Speaker 1: Mark Middleton, an old school crook called Eric murray In Smith,
8:36
Speaker 1: who was a prison officer in Brisbane, which was surprising now.
8:41
Speaker 1: How Smith got into their criminal group was Middleton was
8:45
Speaker 1: in a Brisbane prison where Smith was working and they
8:50
Speaker 1: got to be friends. And when Middleton got out of prison,
8:53
Speaker 1: they continue to be friends and Smith joined their criminal group.
8:58
Speaker 2: He proved to be the weak link which arguably brought
9:03
Speaker 2: kid down. Your informant, you still can't name him because
9:07
Speaker 2: you never know, and this life, it can be dangerous
9:10
Speaker 2: for informants, even their children if the informant is dead.
9:14
Speaker 2: But this informant was giving you a lot of historical information,
9:18
Speaker 2: including probably a couple of murders that kid had committed
9:22
Speaker 2: back in the nineteen seventies. Tell us more about that.
9:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I say informant, this was just someone that
9:27
Speaker 1: came forward and gave us information. So he wasn't really
9:30
Speaker 1: working that much with us, but he gave us some
9:32
Speaker 1: good information. And one of the bits that we got
9:35
Speaker 1: was that Kid had murdered two witnesses in the seventies,
9:39
Speaker 1: and we were told that the two were involved in
9:42
Speaker 1: a safe job in Victoria with Kid and when Bus said,
9:45
Speaker 1: they had agreed to inform mon him try and help
9:48
Speaker 1: themselves with any sentencing. And we're also told that one
9:51
Speaker 1: of them worked at the business they broke into.
9:54
Speaker 2: It was Spindler and Pollock. That's really the business. Yeah.
9:58
Speaker 1: Now we're also told that Kid disposed of their bodies
10:01
Speaker 1: in a vertical hole. And he told us that Kid
10:04
Speaker 1: owned a Jesus had a post driller on a truck
10:07
Speaker 1: and they did work all over Victoria and that's what
10:10
Speaker 1: he used to dig a hole and Barry's victim. So
10:14
Speaker 1: due to the witnesses disappearing, he walked on that particular
10:18
Speaker 1: matter and it didn't proceed.
10:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, those two individuals were Leo Albert Martel and Brian
10:24
Speaker 2: Lawrence Keating. Bubba Martell as he was known, was quite
10:28
Speaker 2: a close associate of Kid for quite a while. And
10:31
Speaker 2: there's been a couple of books written on Kid. And
10:33
Speaker 2: in the book, he talks about this whole incident and
10:37
Speaker 2: he goes into the police station and he sees Bubba
10:40
Speaker 2: Martel talking to the police, and of course that sort
10:44
Speaker 2: of coded information there, because Kid used to say that
10:47
Speaker 2: you never talked to police unless you got your lawyer
10:51
Speaker 2: with you. So the insinuation was that Buba was giving
10:55
Speaker 2: information freely, which was not a good sign for Buba's health.
11:01
Speaker 2: So as they're getting closer to the proceedings there, they
11:05
Speaker 2: both disappear. Martel and Keating, that's.
11:09
Speaker 1: Right, and the fellow we were looking at. He was
11:12
Speaker 1: thirty five at the time of the offense and he'd
11:15
Speaker 1: be ninety two now and Keating was twenty five at
11:18
Speaker 1: the time of the offense and he'd be eighty two now.
11:21
Speaker 1: So they've been missing for fifty four years.
11:24
Speaker 2: And yet when I look on the Victoria Police Missing
11:26
Speaker 2: Persons website, they're not even mentioned.
11:29
Speaker 1: Well, we made it after Kid was arrested. We made
11:31
Speaker 1: inquiries ourselves. That's what we found. There wasn't a stroke
11:35
Speaker 1: of a pen in relation than being missing. And it
11:39
Speaker 1: was unusual in that Martella had been married twice and
11:44
Speaker 1: I understand that he's de facto second wife died about
11:47
Speaker 1: a year before his disappearance, but he had so he
11:50
Speaker 1: was a single father to I think it was five children.
11:53
Speaker 1: I could be wrong there, but it was quite a
11:55
Speaker 1: few and he just disappeared. And we did speak to
12:00
Speaker 1: one of his siblings and they said, yeah, he wouldn't
12:02
Speaker 1: have done that until we hadn't heard heard from him
12:06
Speaker 1: since seventy one to ninety seven. They hadn't heard from him.
12:10
Speaker 2: That's unfortunate for the family because I'm sorry, if it
12:13
Speaker 2: was me, i'd expect this case to still be open,
12:16
Speaker 2: that there might be information that could be lady even
12:18
Speaker 2: today to bring some sort of closure to his children,
12:22
Speaker 2: both of their children's.
12:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fairly old now fifty four years. It's certainly suspicious,
12:28
Speaker 1: and I don't think they've just gone walk about. In fact, Keating.
12:34
Speaker 1: I spoke to one of the detectives from Malvin who
12:36
Speaker 1: was in charge of the case at the time, and
12:39
Speaker 1: he told me that Keating had made a call to
12:41
Speaker 1: his barrasses saying he's on his way to court the
12:44
Speaker 1: day of the court hearing, and he just disappeared, never
12:47
Speaker 1: turned up, So that narrows down his disappearance still a
12:50
Speaker 1: couple of hours.
12:52
Speaker 2: Were you surprised that the Vics didn't want to take
12:55
Speaker 2: this up and maybe even go and speak to the
12:57
Speaker 2: dirtie kid.
12:59
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. Maybe this' noted under. I don't
13:02
Speaker 1: know what. I made a statement in nine and he
13:05
Speaker 1: ate about our information to Victoria Police and maybe the
13:09
Speaker 1: follow it up and they found him. I just don't know.
13:12
Speaker 2: I don't think they had been found as far as
13:14
Speaker 2: I know. I was checking with my contacts and it's
13:17
Speaker 2: just sort of a gap. It's a gap in history
13:20
Speaker 2: the whereabouts of Martel and Keating. The informant also gave
13:24
Speaker 2: you information about another possible murder that Bertie was involved
13:27
Speaker 2: with or potentially involved with.
13:29
Speaker 1: Well, this was a funny one in that there wasn't
13:31
Speaker 1: much infa really. He said a kid murdered a bloke
13:33
Speaker 1: who was a foreign man. He murdered him because he
13:36
Speaker 1: beat a former girlfriend of kids, and the possible location
13:40
Speaker 1: was Double Bay where they did the murder. And that
13:42
Speaker 1: was about it. So there wasn't much to go on.
13:45
Speaker 1: But I read Kid's second book, The Notorious Kid, and
13:49
Speaker 1: he was in here, as he comments in a chapter
13:51
Speaker 1: titled Operation Jerry, where he states that Jerry had a
13:56
Speaker 1: thick guttural check accent and that he beat and stole
13:59
Speaker 1: from Margo, a former girlfriend of kids, and Kids states
14:03
Speaker 1: that he and friends visited Jerry told him to go
14:06
Speaker 1: to a safe house where he would be given a
14:08
Speaker 1: plane ticket the following day, and he was at leave
14:10
Speaker 1: Australia and not return. I'd be skeptical of that outcome.
14:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, he might not have made it to the airport unfortunately.
14:19
Speaker 2: And there's also suspicion that Bertie might have had a
14:22
Speaker 2: role in the death of his girlfriend a bit later
14:25
Speaker 2: on Christine Christiotti, who was quite wealthy and a beautiful woman.
14:30
Speaker 2: They had a child together. She also chose to give
14:34
Speaker 2: evidence against Bertie Kid and nothing good came of it
14:36
Speaker 2: for her.
14:37
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think bert had anything to do with
14:40
Speaker 1: her death. She was a bit of a sad case.
14:43
Speaker 1: She was an own heroin addict in Australia and she
14:46
Speaker 1: inherited a sizeable sum of money and went to live
14:48
Speaker 1: in Balin. She returned to Australia in nineteen ninety eight
14:52
Speaker 1: when Kid was in jail and was likely to do
14:55
Speaker 1: a long stint. She was interviewed by police and did
14:59
Speaker 1: not divulge anything, whether it was from fear of Kid
15:03
Speaker 1: or whatever. Prior to her returning to Balley, she attended
15:08
Speaker 1: her accountant where she gave instructions about her estate that
15:11
Speaker 1: Kid was not to have anything to do with her
15:14
Speaker 1: estate and everything was to go to her son, who
15:16
Speaker 1: she shared with Kid. So they were her last spoken
15:21
Speaker 1: words to her accountant. She returned to Balley and overdosed
15:25
Speaker 1: on heroin shortly after returning. So I don't think Bert
15:29
Speaker 1: was enrolled in that murder.
15:31
Speaker 2: And you don't think she was giving evidence against.
15:33
Speaker 1: Him at that stage. No. It may have changed once
15:36
Speaker 1: a sentence was handed down, but at that stage no, she.
15:41
Speaker 2: Was clearly terrified of him, and she was an experienced
15:44
Speaker 2: heroin addict. It's unusual that an experienced addict would overdose
15:49
Speaker 2: like that. There was suspicion about this, There's certainly suspicion,
15:53
Speaker 2: but not enough to go forward with. It happened in
15:56
Speaker 2: another jurisdiction. You didn't get forensics. It was just another
16:00
Speaker 2: unfortunate drug death. Maybe if it occurred in Australia where
16:04
Speaker 2: forensics could have done a bit more.
16:05
Speaker 1: Who knows.
16:07
Speaker 2: Anyway, rolling back to the main game, you're now looking
16:10
Speaker 2: at Kid and as he called it, a project was emerging.
16:14
Speaker 2: What was that project that you were starting to get
16:17
Speaker 2: a sense of as you worked on him.
16:19
Speaker 1: The project that we were working on in just prior
16:22
Speaker 1: to his arrests in late November early December ninety ninety seven,
16:27
Speaker 1: electronic and physical silence was increased as we believe the
16:31
Speaker 1: Kidney's crew were going to do another home invasion and
16:34
Speaker 1: this time in Castle Cove in Sydney. So we had
16:37
Speaker 1: kid Middleton and Murray was surveiled on a number of
16:41
Speaker 1: occasions going to an address in Castle Cove. The last
16:45
Speaker 1: of our observations are only four days before they did
16:47
Speaker 1: their job in Queensland. Now they went through a number
16:50
Speaker 1: of occasions. They make observations that get out of their car,
16:54
Speaker 1: walk around and that fitted him with information received that
16:59
Speaker 1: when kid did things like home invasions, he'd do dry
17:02
Speaker 1: runs so that if he was and the police were
17:06
Speaker 1: watching him, but move in. So our strategy was we'd
17:10
Speaker 1: observe them, but if they tooled up to do a job,
17:13
Speaker 1: we had to stay protection group on stand by a
17:16
Speaker 1: short distance a way to move in. We did dawn
17:19
Speaker 1: off that particular street and we determined the victim was
17:22
Speaker 1: most likely the owner of a Chinese restaurant, again looking
17:26
Speaker 1: for cash.
17:27
Speaker 2: But not a criminal, just a business person going about
17:30
Speaker 2: their commerce.
17:32
Speaker 1: No, he's targets were wealthy people.
17:34
Speaker 2: Because he liked to say that he only went after
17:37
Speaker 2: bullies and crooks. Was that true when you could look
17:41
Speaker 2: at this series of home invasions?
17:44
Speaker 1: No, no, no, we're already looking at him for two
17:46
Speaker 1: home invasions. He did want of Boney Bay in Sydney
17:50
Speaker 1: South where he had information again that the victim had
17:54
Speaker 1: cash on the premises. So the three offenders Middleton, Kid
17:58
Speaker 1: and Smith into the premises and bailed up a husband
18:02
Speaker 1: and his wife. Now the mail was down in a
18:06
Speaker 1: kid beating with a small sledgehammer, broke numerous bones and
18:10
Speaker 1: colluding a fractioned skull. But the victim couldn't tell him
18:14
Speaker 1: that the cash was because he wasn't leaning on the premises.
18:17
Speaker 1: So in the end, kid put the shotgun to his
18:19
Speaker 1: head and pulled the trigger. It didn't go off. So
18:23
Speaker 1: whether that was a bluff or old amminition, who knows.
18:26
Speaker 1: As particularly vicious home invasion, and the male victim recovered,
18:31
Speaker 1: but his wife was in remission from cancer and she
18:34
Speaker 1: actually died before the trial. The three of them were
18:37
Speaker 1: convicted for that bet offense, and.
18:40
Speaker 2: They came a lot later. But meanwhile, you're now looking
18:43
Speaker 2: at him with some urgency because he's red hot he's
18:46
Speaker 2: an old man, but he's red hot now and you
18:48
Speaker 2: see that he may have a target in Brisbane, a
18:51
Speaker 2: factory up there. How did that come to light?
18:53
Speaker 1: Well, that came to light because we picked up through
18:57
Speaker 1: electronic surveillance between Smith and his wife. They were talking
19:01
Speaker 1: in code, but it wasn't much of a code, so
19:06
Speaker 1: we were able to determine that they're going to rob
19:07
Speaker 1: a chemical factory in the Brisbane suburb of rock Lee.
19:12
Speaker 1: It was going to occur most likely on a Friday,
19:15
Speaker 1: the troth of December, around the close of business. So
19:18
Speaker 1: due to that information, we up the surveillance on Smith
19:22
Speaker 1: in Brisbane and Middleton in Sydney, and we put a
19:26
Speaker 1: loose watching kid, but we didn't want to do anything
19:28
Speaker 1: too much.
19:29
Speaker 2: Well why was that because he was pretty he was
19:31
Speaker 2: on the ball.
19:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he practiced counter surveillance all the time, so
19:37
Speaker 1: that kicked off the surveillance operation for that And on
19:41
Speaker 1: the tenth of December Middleton collected another man called Brett
19:45
Speaker 1: Newcomb and they traveled by a car to Brisbane and
19:49
Speaker 1: the New South Wales and NCAA surveillance teams they had
19:53
Speaker 1: eyes on them the whole time. In Brisbane, Smith was
19:57
Speaker 1: observed to go and buy a white Ford panel van.
20:00
Speaker 1: He bought it under a different name, and his wife
20:02
Speaker 1: Ronica drave him to pick up car.
20:05
Speaker 2: And this is now Smith, the former prison officer, who's
20:08
Speaker 2: the weak Lincoln, the whole thing. I mean, it almost
20:11
Speaker 2: seems like to me that Bertie's almost passed it. He's
20:14
Speaker 2: compromised his methods, he's working with people he shouldn't and
20:17
Speaker 2: gave you guys an absolute in and now you're following
20:21
Speaker 2: all the steps going up to the robbery.
20:24
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, leaving an absolute breadcrumb trail. I thought
20:28
Speaker 1: the same thing. Kids working with the prison officer who
20:30
Speaker 1: is always going to roll if they get caught, And
20:34
Speaker 1: if I can put it this way, they're not proper criminals.
20:36
Speaker 1: They did things of proper criminals wouldn't do so at
20:40
Speaker 1: that stage, we're the end of the eleventh of December
20:43
Speaker 1: in Smith, Middleton and Yarcom. We had eyes on them
20:46
Speaker 1: all the time. They are observed to buy go to
20:49
Speaker 1: hardware shops and buy plastic buckets, gloves, plastic bags. They
20:54
Speaker 1: went to Railway Crescent, Rockley and they were making observations
20:58
Speaker 1: of where the chemical factory was located, so that was
21:01
Speaker 1: a good indicator that that was the place.
21:05
Speaker 2: Following day, I believe Kid flies to Brisbane and meets
21:08
Speaker 2: the other three at the Breakfast Creek Hotel. Good steaks there,
21:12
Speaker 2: but they went there for the food, that's right.
21:15
Speaker 1: I thank you every visiting policemen from New South Wales
21:17
Speaker 1: been to the Breakfast Creek Hotel anyway, they observed to
21:20
Speaker 1: meet there. And what was interesting is one of the
21:23
Speaker 1: surveillance guys from Brisbane, who didn't know what Kid looked like,
21:27
Speaker 1: went into the hotel and observed the meeting and he
21:29
Speaker 1: said to three of them met up with an old
21:31
Speaker 1: guy who was the meanest old guy I've ever seen
21:34
Speaker 1: in my life. So Kid was laying down the wall.
21:37
Speaker 1: Yeah he's pumpkin on. He looked a big mean So.
21:41
Speaker 2: How many people were involve? This is a big deal
21:43
Speaker 2: because Bertie's a big ticket item now, string of home
21:46
Speaker 2: invasions a pedigree as long as your arm. There was
21:50
Speaker 2: not going to be any mistakes here. There was a
21:51
Speaker 2: big team involved well from.
21:53
Speaker 1: The surveillance teams. For instance, the National Crime AUTH already
21:57
Speaker 1: had twelve surveillance operatives TRIEL vehicles. We had the New
22:01
Speaker 1: South Wales and Queensland silence squads on it all at
22:04
Speaker 1: the same time, so there was plenty of roll over
22:07
Speaker 1: with the vehicles and they had eyes on the whole
22:09
Speaker 1: crew the whole time.
22:11
Speaker 2: What was the target in this factory? I believe it
22:13
Speaker 2: was pseudo effigent. Bertie had always, I guess, talked big
22:17
Speaker 2: about hating drugs and so forth, but instead of refigen
22:19
Speaker 2: was one of those key ingredients in making amphetamines and
22:22
Speaker 2: ecstasy and so forth. That's right, And their info was
22:25
Speaker 2: that they could get a forty four gallon drummer this
22:27
Speaker 2: stuff which were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
22:31
Speaker 1: But the whole prelude to this job. You're right in
22:33
Speaker 1: that kids losing it to a fair Debreathe he didn't
22:36
Speaker 1: do a dry run. He's trusting people he shouldn't trust,
22:40
Speaker 1: and they're not picking up that they're being followed. So
22:43
Speaker 1: it was a fitting ding, I think.
22:46
Speaker 2: But there was still a dramatic moment to come because
22:48
Speaker 2: kid leads the raid on the factory.
22:50
Speaker 1: What happened what happened there is probably not up to
22:54
Speaker 1: me to say, because we briefed the Queensland Police all
22:57
Speaker 1: the time on everything we had, and we sent a
23:00
Speaker 1: couple of officers up to Lias because at that stage
23:04
Speaker 1: Kid didn't leave to go up to Coeensleyan till the
23:07
Speaker 1: troth at the sent of the day of the robbery,
23:09
Speaker 1: but they are observed to drive the white Penaline from
23:13
Speaker 1: two Rock Lee. They parked outside of the chemical factory.
23:17
Speaker 1: They don the masks and heat of the premises. With
23:21
Speaker 1: Kid having a three five seven magnum Smith and Wisdom
23:25
Speaker 1: revolver which was owned by Smith, he was licensed to
23:28
Speaker 1: have the gun.
23:29
Speaker 2: Oh my god, bad move.
23:32
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he's as guilty as the person who pulls
23:35
Speaker 1: the trigger. So he's an idiot.
23:37
Speaker 2: Well, I mean the usual m I would have been
23:39
Speaker 2: defined a stolen weapon with no serial numbers, no connection
23:42
Speaker 2: to anybody. So this was again an evidentiary trail that
23:47
Speaker 2: would sink them all. Although of course he was captured.
23:49
Speaker 2: But I mean there was other bungles as well, because
23:52
Speaker 2: when they get in there, they discover the pseudo's not
23:55
Speaker 2: even there. Their target was not even available.
23:58
Speaker 1: That's right. It's not like a bird kid job planned
24:02
Speaker 1: at all. It was like, you know, this is your
24:04
Speaker 1: first or second robbery. To be honest, we were lucky.
24:07
Speaker 1: He'd really stuffed it up, you know. It paid off
24:09
Speaker 1: for us. We were lucky and he was unlucky due
24:13
Speaker 1: to his own incompetence. So Sir of the Coinsline Special
24:18
Speaker 1: Emergency responds to him, I think they're the guys dressed
24:21
Speaker 1: in black with the big weapons, and they weren't on
24:23
Speaker 1: the scene. And at the time the offenders entered the factory,
24:28
Speaker 1: but all the surveillance teams were so they ended a
24:31
Speaker 1: factory in demand at the shootout, which they couldn't get.
24:34
Speaker 1: So they got some other prohibited drugs that they got
24:38
Speaker 1: from the factory, which probably weren't worth a lot. And
24:40
Speaker 1: inside the factory, which proved what a old school crook
24:44
Speaker 1: kid was, he found a second rear entrance. Now, at
24:47
Speaker 1: the conclusion of the robbery, kids sent the other three
24:49
Speaker 1: offenders out to their vehicle and he waited inside. At
24:53
Speaker 1: that stage, suit were on the scene in a bolo
24:56
Speaker 1: that vehicle in and the other three gave up without
24:59
Speaker 1: a fight.
25:00
Speaker 2: But Kid's not finished yet. He goes out through that
25:02
Speaker 2: back door and he sees a surveillance operative in the
25:04
Speaker 2: vehicle a short distance away. He doesn't give up.
25:10
Speaker 1: We've got on this. Surnalians that he was actually approaching
25:12
Speaker 1: the rear insurance slowly and Kid didn't run away from it.
25:15
Speaker 1: He ran to it and started to shoot at the vehicle.
25:18
Speaker 1: So the surveillance officer got out of his car and
25:20
Speaker 1: returned fire. They think he fired four shots, and Kid
25:24
Speaker 1: and the officer it's shane shots with bullets going through
25:28
Speaker 1: the roof the door in the rear window, and eventually
25:31
Speaker 1: one bullet ricocheted off the roof and struck the officer
25:34
Speaker 1: in the wrist. He fell to the ground and Kid
25:39
Speaker 1: took off trying to escape through a construction area.
25:43
Speaker 2: And they're still in hot pursuit of the Sert officers
25:45
Speaker 2: and they're firing warning shots. I mean, at this point,
25:48
Speaker 2: sense prevails because it's pretty likely here that unless kid
25:51
Speaker 2: gives up, he's going to be full of holes. The
25:53
Speaker 2: Sert officers, the soldier cops, they're not going to let
25:56
Speaker 2: him go, and they're ready for the fight. And he's
25:58
Speaker 2: also been firing at Queensland Police officers already, so I
26:02
Speaker 2: guess all bets are off they can shoot this offender. Yeah,
26:06
Speaker 2: and I think they're entitled a shooting there and then,
26:08
Speaker 2: to be honest, But anyway, they fired into the ground.
26:12
Speaker 2: You know, he went to the dirt straight away. He
26:14
Speaker 2: just laid on his stomach, Henes outstretched right. That was
26:18
Speaker 2: the end of a I'm not going to call it
26:19
Speaker 2: a magnificent run, but certainly a long run. And he
26:22
Speaker 2: gets charged with m robbery, violence and company attempted murder
26:26
Speaker 2: shooting to avoid apprehension. How did you feel when you
26:29
Speaker 2: were when you heard all about this.
26:31
Speaker 1: It was a bit of a relief. I mean, we're
26:33
Speaker 1: all disappointed that it ended up someone being wounded from outside.
26:36
Speaker 1: I mean that shouldn't have happened, but you know, to
26:40
Speaker 1: put an end of this bike was pretty broading for
26:43
Speaker 1: the whole team. I mean it was a big team
26:45
Speaker 1: that worked on him and everyone put in, not just me.
26:48
Speaker 1: It was a whole team that ended up getting this blake.
26:51
Speaker 2: It did effectively end his run because he served a
26:53
Speaker 2: stretch up in Queensland and then he was extraduted down
26:56
Speaker 2: to New South Wales to face the home invasion charges.
26:58
Speaker 2: So it really led to the end of his run.
27:01
Speaker 2: So I guess you could, in one sense be called
27:03
Speaker 2: his nemesis Philip Short.
27:05
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that's me. I think there was a
27:08
Speaker 1: whole team. There was Bobbings who was leading the team,
27:11
Speaker 1: and there was the surveillance guys, all the analysts. I
27:14
Speaker 1: think the whole team put in an equal amount of effort.
27:17
Speaker 2: That's right and a good result. As you say, it
27:20
Speaker 2: was unfortunate that one of your side got wounded. But
27:23
Speaker 2: kid was in custody and that was the end of him.
27:25
Speaker 2: But I guess a lot of people say that Berdie
27:29
Speaker 2: Kidd got off pretty lightly in there because he was
27:31
Speaker 2: involved in let's say four murders. There was a couple
27:35
Speaker 2: more back in nineteen ninety two or nineteen ninety one,
27:39
Speaker 2: the murders of Roy Thurger and Dessie Lewis. Tell us
27:43
Speaker 2: a bit about those and why he was suspected of
27:45
Speaker 2: those murders.
27:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suspect the kid's good for both of them.
27:49
Speaker 1: We did receive some information about the Thurgar murder, and
27:53
Speaker 1: that was Thurgo owned a laundromat and Allison Street, Breenwick,
27:58
Speaker 1: and he commonly went there of an evening. I think
28:01
Speaker 1: his wife may have worked there and Thurgar vegle was
28:05
Speaker 1: parked out the front. Now it had a dicky ignition
28:08
Speaker 1: switch and that you had to jiggle the key to
28:09
Speaker 1: get it to work, and as he was doing that,
28:12
Speaker 1: kid came across the road tapped on the window, Thurgo
28:16
Speaker 1: looked up and his shot him. I think he died
28:19
Speaker 1: the next day or the day after. What was interesting
28:22
Speaker 1: is after the murder, Kid went straight to the Quarry Hotel,
28:26
Speaker 1: which is situated near the Cydney Police Center and now's
28:29
Speaker 1: a common drinking spot for police, especially detectives. So he
28:34
Speaker 1: started to a being near a group of detectives and
28:36
Speaker 1: one of the guys was from the Pole Up squad
28:39
Speaker 1: and of course he recognized him, but it was not
28:42
Speaker 1: known by anse police. But this guy recognized him, so
28:44
Speaker 1: he spoke to him and put in an information report.
28:48
Speaker 1: So it was pretty clever because if kid was ever
28:51
Speaker 1: tapped on the shoulder for it, I think it sounds
28:54
Speaker 1: would sound convincing to a jury that hang on, he
28:58
Speaker 1: was drinking with police twenty twenty five minutes afterwards.
29:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, so had opportunity, I guess, but had an alibi.
29:05
Speaker 2: But he also had a motive. The murder of Michael
29:08
Speaker 2: Sayers back in nineteen eighty five. Sayers was an associative
29:12
Speaker 2: kid that he was part of his team, part of
29:14
Speaker 2: his social circle, and Roy Thurger had been boasting around
29:19
Speaker 2: Sydney that he killed Michael Sayers, who was a pretty
29:21
Speaker 2: willing crook in his own right. By the way, do
29:23
Speaker 2: you think that was the motive.
29:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the motive. Big Sayers was a
29:27
Speaker 1: good friend of the kids at the end of his life.
29:30
Speaker 1: I think Big says, oh, the wrong people a fair
29:32
Speaker 1: bit of money. Fergo was on that side of the
29:36
Speaker 1: criminal element, and so Sayers wasn't paying back the money.
29:40
Speaker 1: So Hergar and a number of I think there were
29:44
Speaker 1: two others killed Sayers.
29:46
Speaker 2: That's right, And the paymaster in that case was probably
29:48
Speaker 2: heroin dealer Barry mccannon, I understand.
29:51
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was mckainn or one another,
29:53
Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
29:54
Speaker 2: Or Danny Chubb. There's a whole crew you could have ended.
29:57
Speaker 1: I think Chubb would be a good one to probably
29:59
Speaker 1: look at the.
30:02
Speaker 2: Right and they all met grizzly ends didn't in this
30:05
Speaker 2: period pick your dead villain in this case. And then
30:09
Speaker 2: Dassi Lewis. Why was Daisy Lewis killed?
30:13
Speaker 1: Well, it could be just pettiness. I mean noteds are varied.
30:18
Speaker 1: Kid has one in his book about that. Kid and
30:21
Speaker 1: Lewis and Jockey Smith were on opposite sides. Lewis on
30:26
Speaker 1: one side with Jockie Smith and Kid on the other
30:29
Speaker 1: There was also that Kid had an altercation with or
30:33
Speaker 1: an argument with Lewis at the Lord Nelson Hotel sometime
30:37
Speaker 1: earlier and Lewis asked him to step it outside. Now,
30:40
Speaker 1: Lewis was a former boxer and I think he would
30:43
Speaker 1: have punish Kid, so Kid to kind of fired him,
30:45
Speaker 1: and I think he'd lost a bit of faith. That
30:48
Speaker 1: could be one motive. But Kid was certainly involved because
30:52
Speaker 1: after his arrest we did a number of search warrants
30:55
Speaker 1: in Sydney, one at a black Colleric Murray's place, and
31:00
Speaker 1: we recovered amount of equipment curling paler class and shotgun
31:06
Speaker 1: ammunition and two shotguns. And one of those shotguns was
31:11
Speaker 1: a forensic match for the murder weapon of Des Lewis.
31:15
Speaker 1: So he certainly was involved. And I think he probably
31:17
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger.
31:19
Speaker 2: So was there never enough to charge him over those murders?
31:22
Speaker 1: Do you think? No? He had a pretty good alibi,
31:25
Speaker 1: and his alibi was Christine Christiotti. They were allegedly at
31:29
Speaker 1: a function in Double Bay and I think they were
31:32
Speaker 1: there and others a verified Kid was present. My theory
31:36
Speaker 1: is that Kid left the function was driven a short
31:39
Speaker 1: distance from Double Bay to Bondi Junction. He waited him
31:43
Speaker 1: for Lewis and then ambushed him when he returned home,
31:47
Speaker 1: and then Kid just returned to the function.
31:49
Speaker 2: And whatever evidence Christine Christiotti could have given went to
31:52
Speaker 2: her grave with her as she died of a heroin overdose. Simbali,
31:55
Speaker 2: as we said earlier, Yeah.
31:57
Speaker 1: That's a shame. It's not not much else to go
31:59
Speaker 1: on in that particular murder.
32:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course you retire not long after this,
32:06
Speaker 2: don't you.
32:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. I retire and medically retired in two thousand and
32:11
Speaker 1: one with some unique injuries. So that was the end
32:15
Speaker 1: of my involvement. I left organized crime in ninety eight
32:19
Speaker 1: and a few of the other police took over the
32:22
Speaker 1: home invasions and finished off the brief. And they did
32:24
Speaker 1: a great job in putting the home invasions and another
32:29
Speaker 1: robbery on the kid.
32:30
Speaker 2: And you were called as a witness in those cases,
32:32
Speaker 2: weren't you.
32:33
Speaker 1: Well, I was called as a witness and went in.
32:35
Speaker 1: But Kid and the others changed their police to guilty.
32:38
Speaker 1: It was a pretty solid brief, so I think to
32:42
Speaker 1: avoid extra time and give them some help of getting out,
32:45
Speaker 1: they pleaded guilty to all matters.
32:48
Speaker 2: And this was your chance to at least look at
32:51
Speaker 2: kid in the face, wasn't it.
32:54
Speaker 1: Yes, I wanted to see how he took it before
32:58
Speaker 1: hour involved, But I think he'd only done about six
33:00
Speaker 1: years prison, so it hadn't done a lot of serious jail,
33:04
Speaker 1: and I knew he was going to get a fairly
33:05
Speaker 1: good leg for these offenses. So when the judge eventually
33:10
Speaker 1: handed down what was in total a twenty six year
33:13
Speaker 1: top sentence and twenty one on the bottom, he showed
33:17
Speaker 1: no emotion. It could have been your issue with a
33:20
Speaker 1: parking ticket. You can leave nothing at all, no emotion.
33:24
Speaker 1: He just copped it.
33:25
Speaker 2: Because those old style crooks they used to take jail
33:29
Speaker 2: as occupational hazard. But you had to do some jail
33:32
Speaker 2: from time to time. But this was a long lagging
33:35
Speaker 2: and it was really the end of his criminal career.
33:38
Speaker 2: So you could take that as an achievement in your career,
33:40
Speaker 2: I suppose.
33:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think for all of us it was a
33:43
Speaker 1: great achievement to see him go away for a long
33:46
Speaker 1: time because he was going to continue to commit a
33:48
Speaker 1: serious crime. He wasn't going to.
33:50
Speaker 2: Stop, and as you say, the mistakes in the Brisbane
33:54
Speaker 2: job probably should have told him that it was time
33:57
Speaker 2: to give it up. Before this, he.
33:59
Speaker 1: Would have been embarrassed by I didn't give evidence at
34:02
Speaker 1: the committal hearing in Brisbane for thosees, and my evidence
34:07
Speaker 1: was in relation to the voice identification of the people
34:09
Speaker 1: on telephones. And the look on his face was I
34:12
Speaker 1: swear if he had those people in adopt ex thing,
34:15
Speaker 1: he would have tried to kill them. They're really broad
34:17
Speaker 1: him undone.
34:19
Speaker 2: Well, so thanks for sharing those memories there, Phil, I
34:21
Speaker 2: think it's an amazing thing. I'd like to think there's
34:24
Speaker 2: some way that the Keating and Martell families could finally
34:27
Speaker 2: get some sort of closure. Are going to be talking
34:30
Speaker 2: to the Victoria police down here and see if they've
34:31
Speaker 2: got any interest in following up these cases and maybe
34:34
Speaker 2: even dusting off your old information, even if your informants
34:37
Speaker 2: still out there. I'm not quite sure if he would be,
34:38
Speaker 2: but it'd be nice to see these things because I'm
34:41
Speaker 2: sure over your career it's one thing to be a
34:43
Speaker 2: crook involved in the hurly burly of offending, but the
34:46
Speaker 2: families do suffer, and I'm sure that his children, both
34:50
Speaker 2: those families, you know, the kids of both those men
34:53
Speaker 2: suffered as a result of the unexplained disappearance of their fathers.
34:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt about it. You know they're involved in
35:02
Speaker 1: crime themselves, but just the same they deserve to, you know,
35:07
Speaker 1: if their disappearance investigated, Whether it comes to anything or not,
35:10
Speaker 1: it deserves to be investigate.
35:16
Speaker 2: That's Philip Short, retired in South Wales detective on bringing
35:20
Speaker 2: down Bertram Douglas kid. Now there is another volume coming
35:25
Speaker 2: out of his trilogy. I think it's going to be
35:27
Speaker 2: one book and the same author, Simon Griffin, is putting
35:29
Speaker 2: together some much I'm going to afford some of this
35:31
Speaker 2: stuff to Simon and it may up in the story.
35:33
Speaker 2: But do you wonder this final version was supposed to
35:37
Speaker 2: be kept until after Vert's death, and I wonder how
35:41
Speaker 2: much he's going to reveal in this final volume. Will
35:45
Speaker 2: he talk about the deaths of Thurger, of Lewis, of Martel,
35:50
Speaker 2: of Keating? Does he have a conscience? Finally, that's a
35:54
Speaker 2: really good question. If you have any stories for me,
35:56
Speaker 2: please get in touch Adam Sander writer at gmail dot com.
35:59
Speaker 2: If you've got some information you want to tell the police,
36:01
Speaker 2: call crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero.
36:05
Speaker 2: This has been Adam shann for Real Crime. Thank you
36:07
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