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Christianity and Marginalized People: Part 2 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome re stphone
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told me your protection of iHeartRadio. We are back
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: with a part two of this look into Christianity and
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the marginalized community, and you're all just stretching out it is.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It is stretching out as for sure. Yeah. In the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: last episode, if you did listen and want to recap,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: we did a quick overview on women and marginalized communities,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: talking about statistics, breaking down of women and religion and
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: even deconstruction. We talked about the history about it of
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: it a little bit. And for those who didn't listen,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: you don't really have to because even though it's a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: part two, it kind of does seem to all separate.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: But maybe you should go back and listen just to
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: kind of get it, you know. A quick basis right
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: the ground worked for it and also shout out to
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: listener and friend of the show, ray I Hope I
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: said that right, who actually sent us a message reminding
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: me that AX was not written by Paul. It was
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: written by Luke, who also wrote the Gospel of Luke.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: So just an FYI did get that wrong, but it
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: does have the beginning story of which is what got
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  Speaker 1: into my brain. But you know, we'd like to clarify.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Corrections are always good, please let us know. And you
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: know what, today we're kind of having a throwback because
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: when I started this podcast with you as just a guest,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: we did a whole trauma mini series. It was a lot,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and so we're kind of throwing it back with this
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  Speaker 1: religious trauma. However, if it's a very long conversation, and
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  Speaker 1: though we will define what it is and kind of
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: give you a rundown of what that looks like, symptoms
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: all of that at we don't talk about the effects
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of it yet because we have so much to cover.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So there's gonna be a part three and probably apart four,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: maybe apart five, who knows. There's a lot. And with
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: this we do want to put a content warning. Of course,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about religious trauma in general. We
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: do talk about roles of women. We're not getting into
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: the nitty gritty, but eventually we will be talking about
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  Speaker 1: domestic violence, sexual violence, hate language towards the queer community
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: and all of that. So just be where we're going
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: to put that at the top. And again another we're
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  Speaker 1: not trying to denegrate Christianity. Please understand what we're looking
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: at is the dark side when it does affect women
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  Speaker 1: and why women are leaving and marginalized community are leaving
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  Speaker 1: Christianity behind and it is growing, as we said at
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  Speaker 1: the first episode, the amount of people who are leaving.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: So there you go. Content warning. Yes, I actually just
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: saw because as we record this, it was a big
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: like fast over just happened, desearch, just happens. I just
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: saw a big article on CNN about what is going
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: on with the church. Everyone's leaving up right? Well, here
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  Speaker 1: we are to give you sens why and yes we
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: are focusing mainly on Western Christianity. Just a note also,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I've never heard this term, so let's get into it.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: What are we talking about when we say religious trauma syndrome.
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  Speaker 1: This term was first coined by psychologist Marlene Winnell. I
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  Speaker 1: hope I'm not butchering that in twenty eleven, but the
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  Speaker 1: basis of it has been around much earlier than that,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: much longer than that. And as we know, sometimes when
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  Speaker 1: we have a name or a label for something, it
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  Speaker 1: can help not only understand the type of trauma that
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: someone might be going through, but how to work through
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: those types of trauma, and doctor Unelle defines it as quote.
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  Speaker 1: Religious trauma syndrome is the condition experienced by people who
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: are struggling with leaving an authoritarian, dogmatic religion and coping
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  Speaker 1: with the damage of indoctrination. They may be going through
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  Speaker 1: the shattering of a personally meaningful faith and or breaking
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  Speaker 1: away from a controlling community and a lifestyle. RTS is
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  Speaker 1: a function of both the chronic abuses of harmful religion
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  Speaker 1: and the impact of severing one's connection with one's faith.
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  Speaker 1: It can be compared to a combination of PTSD and
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  Speaker 1: complex PTSD or c PTSD, right, and we've talked about
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  Speaker 1: that before and again we do want to emphasize this
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  Speaker 1: is harmful religion. That is the keynote here. So what
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  Speaker 1: does that look like. It's similar to other types of trauma.
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  Speaker 1: So here are some cognitive symptoms such as issues with
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  Speaker 1: self esteem and self worth, perfectionism, poor critical thinking, confusion,
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  Speaker 1: some emotional symptoms, depression, grief, loneliness, loss of meaning, social symptoms,
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  Speaker 1: loss of network, family rupture, social awkwardness. And y'all, this
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: is describing me to a t and how that I'm
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  Speaker 1: having a moment. Cultural symptoms difficulty belonging, information gap and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: unfamiliarity with the secular world. And I really thought that
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  Speaker 1: was important to put in there because if you are
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  Speaker 1: from a religious background, you know exactly what that means.
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  Speaker 1: I any I did not watch secular movies, and I
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  Speaker 1: say secular meaning they weren't religious. When I say I
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  Speaker 1: did not watch any TV for a full couple of years,
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  Speaker 1: I had no idea what's going on in the world.
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  Speaker 1: And I was like, what's that was this? I had
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  Speaker 1: a good friend of mine in college there did it
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  Speaker 1: throughout not only not only college, but high school, and
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  Speaker 1: so whenever we'd had any references like music, she had
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  Speaker 1: no clue what's going on this? It was such a disruption.
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  Speaker 1: And for me coming out of that, I was like,
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  Speaker 1: oh man, I missed a lot. I don't know. I
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: am not cool with the kids anymore. And I was
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  Speaker 1: a kid implying that you once weren't. No. I okay.
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  Speaker 1: So let's look at some of the causes of rts.
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  Speaker 1: According to the article written by doctor Winnell, quote authoritarianism
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  Speaker 1: coupled with toxic theology, which is received and reinforced at church, school,
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  Speaker 1: and home, results in the following suppression of normal child development, cognitive, social, emotional,
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  Speaker 1: moral stages are arrested, damage to normal thinking and feeling abilities.
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  Speaker 1: Information is limited and controlled, dysfunctional beliefs taught, independent thinking,
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  Speaker 1: condemned feelings condemned external oacus of control. Knowledge is revealed,
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  Speaker 1: not discovered. Hierarchy of authority enforced self not a reliable
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: or a good source. Physical and sexual abuse, patriarchal power,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: unhealthy sexual views, punishment used as for discipline. And you know,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I found that interesting when we have this category about
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse and under it talks about unhealthy sexual views,
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  Speaker 1: and we talked about it in our Purity episode and
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: we're gonna go review it. We're gonna go back come
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: back to it in the next episode because I think
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: it's still important that we address it, but that it
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  Speaker 1: could be it's harmful in a formative emotional abuse at
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: the very least, because there's so much fear in undated
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  Speaker 1: with it that it causes a lot of problems, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of psychological problems. I know, specifically women who had
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of sexual dysfunction because of their association to
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: how dirty sex could be or are their unhealthy views
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: of sex. So I really think that's important that we
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: talk about that when we come back later. But again,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to note that. And speaking of abuse,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: let's go ahead and define religious and spiritual abuse before
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: we go any further. According to one wellness site, it
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  Speaker 1: is quote when someone uses religious teachings, beliefs, or practices
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: for their own purpose and designed to gain or maintain
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  Speaker 1: power and control over others. I think that's so important
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  Speaker 1: that we remember what this looks like about that power.
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  Speaker 1: When we talk about abuse, we always talk about there's
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: a level of power there, and there is that with
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  Speaker 1: a religious and spiritual aspect. And while we're at it,
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  Speaker 1: because I don't think we did this last time, let's
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: define religion and spirituality. Yeah, like I said, we forgot
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  Speaker 1: the first time around. So, according to Mariam Webster, religion
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  Speaker 1: is defined as quote a personal set of institutionalized system
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  Speaker 1: of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Also the service and
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  Speaker 1: worship of God or the supernatural, or commitment or devotion
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  Speaker 1: to religious faith or observance. And then spirituality is defined
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  Speaker 1: as quote something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the
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  Speaker 1: church or to a cleric as such, clergy sensitivity or
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  Speaker 1: attachment to religious values. Okay, now I got that back
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  Speaker 1: out of the way, So let's go back to the
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  Speaker 1: trauma part, right, okay, And religious and spiritual trauma can
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  Speaker 1: manifest in different ways, for example, using religious beliefs to
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  Speaker 1: control aspects of your personal life including behavior, what you wear,
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  Speaker 1: your dates, and who you do or don't have sex with,
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  Speaker 1: what job you have, how you parents, your finances, facing
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  Speaker 1: criticism or punishment for questioning beliefs, practices, facing criticism or punishment,
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  Speaker 1: or reporting mistreatment or incidents of abuse, minimizing or ridiculing
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  Speaker 1: mental health symptoms as quote sinfold, demonic, or weak faith. Right,
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  Speaker 1: And again we're going to come back to this because
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  Speaker 1: I think especially when we talk about mental health for
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  Speaker 1: the longest time, and I was told this myself when
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: I was going through my suicidal adeation and my really
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  Speaker 1: dark times, that I wasn't praying enough and there was
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: a level of shame that was placed onto me that
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  Speaker 1: I would talk to other people about that darkness instead
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  Speaker 1: of talking to God or just keeping it to myself.
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  Speaker 1: So again we're going to come back to that. And
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  Speaker 1: then yeah, we've definitely seen that whole conversation of their
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  Speaker 1: possessed or the devils in them yeah, yeah, And as
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  Speaker 1: doctor Winnell wrote about the psychical abuse quote, the doctrines
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  Speaker 1: of original sin and internal damnation caused the most psychological
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  Speaker 1: distress by creating the ultimate double blind. You're guilty and
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  Speaker 1: responsible and faced internal punishment, yet you have no ability
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  Speaker 1: to do anything about it. These are teachings of fundamentalist Christianity. However,
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  Speaker 1: other authoritarian religions have equally toxic doctrines. You must conform
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  Speaker 1: to a mental test of believing in an external, unseen
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  Speaker 1: source for salvation and maintain the state of belief until death.
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  Speaker 1: You cannot ever stop sinning altogether, so you must continue
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  Speaker 1: to confess and be forgiven, hoping that you have met
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  Speaker 1: the criteria, despite complete lack of feedback about whether you
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  Speaker 1: will actually make it to Heaven. Salvation is not a
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  Speaker 1: free gift after all. For the sincere believer, this results
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  Speaker 1: in an unending cycle of shame and relief. Yes, I
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  Speaker 1: think that is the constant. And I again, just like
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  Speaker 1: she said, it's not just Christianity that we see this sin.
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  Speaker 1: It is definitely across the lines of different types of
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  Speaker 1: faith and different beliefs. Again, we are talking specifically about
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Christianity in our episode, but what she's talking about with
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the religious trauma syndrome, that could be any religion. And
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: from that Wildest article we mentioned earlier, here are some
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  Speaker 1: examples of religious trauma and we're going to quote them
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  Speaker 1: all because I think it's important, because I think it's
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  Speaker 1: going to hit with a lot of people. That hit
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  Speaker 1: me a lot. You are confused about what you're being
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  Speaker 1: taught and are scared or uncomfortable with voicing questions or
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: your beliefs. You attack, dismiss, or shame yourself if you
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  Speaker 1: have a differing belief or question your beliefs. You are
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  Speaker 1: terrified of death, evil, the rapture, the devil, and hell.
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  Speaker 1: You may have nightmares or reoccurring fears of when the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: world will end and what will happen after. You may
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: dissociate or feel separated from your body and emotions due
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  Speaker 1: to fear of connecting with emotions and constant focusing outward
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  Speaker 1: to others and God. You constantly criticize and judge yourself
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  Speaker 1: and others due to fear of sin and fear of
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  Speaker 1: upsetting God. You are afraid of being led astray in
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  Speaker 1: quotes by the devil or evil, and so you become
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  Speaker 1: afraid or critical of the quote outside world secular world.
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  Speaker 1: You feel unable to or uncomfortable with, saying no to others.
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  Speaker 1: And also women, you might be afraid that your body
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  Speaker 1: is bad and others should not look at you think
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  Speaker 1: you're beautiful into that it is your responsibility to make
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  Speaker 1: sure that doesn't happen. Men, and you might be afraid
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  Speaker 1: to get too close to a woman because then you
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  Speaker 1: will fall into sin by a lusting after her, and
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  Speaker 1: then you will have to marry her. You struggle to
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  Speaker 1: trust your thoughts, feelings, and intuition because you have been
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  Speaker 1: taught the body is wrong or bad. You attack, dismiss,
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  Speaker 1: or alienate others who do not believe the same way
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  Speaker 1: you do. Right and again, like we've left that all
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  Speaker 1: in there, and I'm sure there's other things that we
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  Speaker 1: could add on to that would explain it even deeper
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: or go into the feelings or the fear. The fear
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  Speaker 1: is the biggest part to a lot of this, obviously,
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  Speaker 1: and these are some of the most dangerous things that
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  Speaker 1: can happen which could cause bodily harm to others and
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: or some way of overpowering others because of the spear.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: When we talked about other shootings, that happened in Atlanta,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: the Atlanta Spas shootings. That's exactly what happened. He was
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: in so much fear of sinning that this was what
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  Speaker 1: his solution was. Because they were apart, These women were
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  Speaker 1: a part of his sin. He would rather kill and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: for some reason that outweighed the whole. Thou shalt boll
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: murder apparently, right, right, right, right? Yeah. We also want
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: to take a minute to look at a different term
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: coined by Riba Riley, called post traumatic church syndrome. Here's
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: a quote from her interview with The National Catholic Reporter.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Post traumatic church syndrome is the term I made up
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  Speaker 1: to describe my spiritual injuries after I left my faith
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  Speaker 1: in my early twenties. I define PTCs as one a
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: condition of spiritual injury that occurs as results of religion,
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  Speaker 1: faith and or the losing, leaving, or breaking thereof, two
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  Speaker 1: the vile, noxious and otherwise foul aftermath of said injury,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: and three the serious term intended to aid serious spiritual
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  Speaker 1: healing without taking itself too seriously in the process. In
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  Speaker 1: another interview with Time, she says people who leave or
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  Speaker 1: are left by their faith lose a lot more than
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: a place to go on Sunday morning. They lose relationships
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  Speaker 1: with family and friends, social status, tribal approval, self esteem.
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  Speaker 1: They lose their God, their identity, their certainty, their gravity.
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  Speaker 1: I know because I lost all of these things right
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and honestly, there's so much to be said. So she
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: wrote a whole book based on her experience and her
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  Speaker 1: coining this term. But it's true. I've talked about it before.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: When I walked away from what I thought and believed
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: and what I thought was my quote unquote calling it
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: felt like a piece of me had been ripped out
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: of me. Felt like either a death or a huge divorce, essentially,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: because it took out part of my identity. Again, it
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: was a third like. It was a like a double
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: edged sword in that being an adoptee and being told
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: from the day that I arrived in the US that
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: God saved me for this purpose, and that this purpose
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: was to serve others to tell about Jesus, essentially, because
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I had to be grateful that I was saved physically
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: and spiritually. And it was devastating when I felt that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: falling apart, when I felt things falling apart, when I
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: came out and realized the things that were told to
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: me was love people were using as a weapon, and
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: especially coming in here, I'm like, my whole ideal and
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I think this is to me being real, literal. I
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: cannot help being literal in that if I'm actually going
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: to help people, then I need to truly help people,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: So being a social worker, being an advocate, but then
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: even not being able to do anything because there were roadblocks,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: and there are politics, and it was politics based in
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: church and Christianity, and then on top of that lake
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: some of the scriptures saying people were going to hell
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: because of who they were created to be. When I
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: was similar to that. My personality was a very strong,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: independent woman. That is not what I was taught. It
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: was a good thing, and I was ashamed. And then
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: finding leadership that was like, I'm like, oh, why would
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I follow you? You'd ridiculous and you don't know what
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: you're doing. Just because you have a penis why should
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I trust you more? And it was it was devastating
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: to see that, and it felt like I had lost
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: an entire chunk of my life, if not the whole
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: existence of my life, and trying to start over felt impossible.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: So it made a lot of sense in that, of course,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: there's an amazing thing when you heel and grow out
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: of it and do what you need to on your
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: own and finding your own spirituality. Of course, and I
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: said that in the first episode. I'm not completely atheist
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: in that I don't believe in something, whatever, the karma
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: that you know, the greater good, whatever, I want to know.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I want to think that there is a bigger purpose.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Of course, Do I believe what I believed back then? No?
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  Speaker 1: Could I ever? I don't think so. It's been too
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: much and the things that I've seen again that based
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: all those fears and showed me that you could not question.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: How is this big deity so fragile that you cannot
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: ask questions? It was a whole whole part of me
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: that felt lost, and it's still I still struggle with
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: it today. Obviously I've been talking about it. We've been
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: talking about it. How it really put a giant wedge
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: between people that I've known all my life for most
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: of my life, or those who I'm supposed to look
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: up to. And it's been a struggle. It's been very isolating.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: And it's interesting to see because now I see family
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: members or people who are younger than me going that
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: same thing and it's and I hate that for them,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: but they have to go through it themselves before they
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: understand what it is. But yes, I just wanted to
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: share that. Moving on, outside of my sad stories, what
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: does this mean for women and the marginalized community? What
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: does religious trauma look for those who are already seen
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: as not worth as much? Right in one article for
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Life Afterdogma dot Com. And by the way, a lot
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: of our articles came from religious papers or religious sites
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: that had a lot of conversations, So again I'm not
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: going after religion in general, because they are having this
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: conversation within themselves and they see a problem as well.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: So I think it's an amazing time to see that
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: people are being open and are willing to ask questions.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: But again, so this is Life after Dogma dot Com
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: and the writer is injured Jessico. I really hope I
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: said that, right, I apologize, And he puts it frankly.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: He says, many lead Christianity simply because they are women.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: The Bible was written by men and for men. God
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: has a penis Patriarchy informs the entire biblical worldview there's
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: no escaping that try as liberal Christianity may, there's only
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: damage control. Women often find much more freedom in schools
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: and the workplace than in their churches, learning they don't
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: have to be quote silent and submissive to men like
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: in many churches. They aren't the property of men. Feminine
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: sexuality is not to be suppressed because it's some kind
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: of temptation for men, nor is it a service for
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: men on demand. And I thought that was an interesting
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: way of putting it. I do like the line about
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: God has a penis, are y'all? And as we talked
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: about in that first episode In our previous episode, history
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: is not kind to how the Bible is interpreted when
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: it comes to women and the marginalized community. And today's
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: debate as the country continues to be split with politicians
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: again weaponizing religion for power. There's a lot. But as
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I said at the top, before we can actually talk
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: about how religious trauma affects women and the marginalized community
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: in general, we have to talk about the misogyny and
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: sexism in Christianity. So let's start it, Okay, Yeah, in
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: her journal, sexism and misogyny and the Christian tradition liberating alternatives.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Rosemary Radford Ruther researches the depths of these roles in Christianity.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: At the start of her articles, she writes, attitudes towards
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: women are often the results of a quote patriarchal and
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: hierarchical reading of the system of Christian symbols as a whole,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: rather than specific doctrines. These readings of a quote system
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: of domination derives from patriarchal slave acor sees the social
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: system in which Christianity was born. That is a quote,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: but does recognize that its original intent quote began as
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: a critique of this system that proposed prophetic, liberating alternatives
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: that were then partially replaced, which we would argue that
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: the original ideal is what was most likely appeasing for
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: those who are marginalized. Misogynistic attitudes have roots in the
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Greek philosophical tradition, particularly Aristotle, and these traditions believe that
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: quote women lack autonomous reason and were therefore inherently inferior
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: and dependent on the mail. Right, and again we're coming
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: back to Paul again, many opinions. Again, I really like
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: being not the only one. Love seeing it in writing too.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: RUTHO wright quote, but Paul prefers that gender hierarchy and
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: slavery remained intact until Christ returns, which he had expected
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to happen very soon. Which I feel like it happens
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: often most promised things. It is going to happen real soon.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: It never really does. Whatever. I'm sure one day we'll
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll be shocked. Whatever. And Paul writes in a
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: New Testament that quote, equality in Christ is only spiritual
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: and does not affect worldly gender and class hierarchies. So
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: we wanted to take some Bible verses for you as examples,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: and this one was from the New Testament. He wrote, wives,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: obey your husband, and slaves obey your masters, and children
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: obey your parents. Yeah, and only continues with this theme throughout,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: including verses like Ephesians chapter five, verse twenty two, quote, wives,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: submit yourself to your own husband's as you do the Lord.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Then we go to First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse three.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: But I want you to understand that Christ is the
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: head of every man, and the husband is the head
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Also First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse eight and nine. Man
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: was not made from woman, but woman made from man.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: for the sake of man. For this reason, a woman
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: should have a symbol of authority on our head. So
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: this is a debated topic about head covering, so you'll
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: see it throughout all kinds of conversations. Yeah, that was
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: something that happened in my college ministry. There was a
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: whole debate about head coverings. Really, uga even whoa and
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Ruther goes on to say the first Epistle of Timothy,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: a disciple of Paul quote seeks to give the final
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: basis for women subordination in the Church and to refute
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: any idea that this subordination had been overcome in Christ.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Women are said to have been both created second after
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: the Mail, and also to have been guilty of originating
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: humanities fall into sin. So here's some more Bible verses.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: First Timothy, Chapter two, verses thirteen and fourteen quote for
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Adam was formed first and then Eve, and Adam was
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became the transgressor.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And with verses and texts like these, the message which
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: is very clear, not only are women's secondary, but they
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: are the reason or evil on earth, their sedectresses and
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: deceivers and easily misled, and their duties or perhaps more
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: along the lines of punishment are quote no authority in
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: the church expected to be silent submission to men, and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: then pain of childbirth, right of course, and then of
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: course all of the pain in general. Women just deserve pain, right, okay,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: And as we continue forward in history, the interpretation doesn't
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: stray far from those beliefs. Saint Augustine distinguishes between quote
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: the spiritual capacity of women's souls and her quote physical
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: nature as female, which is the rest right, not the
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: image of God, but rather images of the body as
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: carnal and prone to sin because we can conceive, right,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: that means we're sinful. And the theology continues with the
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: idea that men are fully formed humans, but women are
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: quote defective humans. Yes, as were with the rights, Christ
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: had to be male to represent full humanity, and therefore
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: only males could represent Christ in the priesthood, and many
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: would consider God being male as well, or male representing
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: the strong, the righteous, anger, the powerful, So therefore obviously
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: he is masculine. And as we keep moving up the timeline,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: the Reformation era was not so great for women either.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Louther and Calvin quote worsened at the early Christian tradition
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: by denying that women can exercise the power of prophecy.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: They did, however, elevate women's characters a bit by rejecting
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the idea of women as quote defective by nature, but
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: instead insisted that quote women accept their subordination as obedience
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: to the divinely established social order. And of course, quote
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: rationality and ruling power are seen as male qualities to
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: be exercised by males and inappropriate for women. Right, yeah,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: just look at the status of politics today. We don't
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: have emotional politicians at all that are men. Or you know,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the whole dating scene is not like rampant with emotional
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: men who get very angry for no reason at all,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: including like, oh, I don't know, I just saw a
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: wonderful tweet of a woman who got a message, and
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: it was she said, hey, I'm asleep, I'll respond to you,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: and he sends a huge, long letter essentially telling her message,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: essentially telling her that she's missing out, and all he
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: wanted to do is buy her things. Like it was
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: on and on, and then she was like, dude, I
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: told you I was asleep that I would get back
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: to you. She wasn't even rejecting him, right, But men
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: aren't emotional any they are so rational, but women just
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: inappropriate obviously. Okay. So, however, this theological battle of men's
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: roles versus women's roles has been around for years, and
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I thought because we found several different articles talking about
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: feminism in the church, women's roles, and I found one
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty five and it's titled women are the
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Devil's Gateway and it was for the New Internationalists, which
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I think they did a whole debate for this, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: we're going to take a big chunk out of it
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: because again it's too fascinating. Today, Orthodox Jewish women are
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: still excluded from the praying community and seated behind a screen.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Roman Catholic and Protestant women who want to serve the
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: bread and wine are asked instead to serve church suppers.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Women in every congregation still hear such phrases as quote God,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: our father sons of God, men of God, and the
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: brotherhood of Man. And in this patriarch of theology rights
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: American feminist Rosemary Ruther, the bill is taken to be
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: the normative representative of a human species, the norm for
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: imagining God and for anthropology, sin, redemption, and ministry. The female,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: in contrast, is seen as subordinate and auxiliary to the male.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Women never appear in patriarchal theology as representatives of humanity.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: As such, their normative position is that of absence and silence.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: When patriarchal theology mentions women, it does so to reinforce
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: its definition of her place in the system. Feminist scholars
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: also began to identify the relationship between the sexism women
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: experience that worship and the biblical worldview. The creation stories
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: shared by Christians, Muslims, and Jews is a cornerstone of
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the historical bias towards women. According to the Hebrew folktale,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Eve tempted Adam with a forbidden fruit and thus triggered
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: humankind's expulsion from paradise. The identification of women with evil, temptation,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: and sin thus became a primary ingredient in Christian tradition.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: While men was associated with the spiritual, the reasonable, and
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the godly, women was linked to flesh, matter, and the world.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Good and evil were given the clear sexual counterparts. According
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: to this very view, women actually cause evil to come
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: into the world. As a result, they must atone for
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: their collective guilt and redeem themselves, and with that the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: article continues so In the past decade, feminists have challenged
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: assumptions that any form of oppression is natural part of
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the created order, and such devastating critiques of the Judaeo
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Christian tradition have led many feminists to leave established churches
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and synagogues. A goddess movement has emerged, in which women
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: are attempting to reshape ancient worship and celebrate women's creative power.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Spiritual feminism has become an important aspect of the women's
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: movement worldwide. Still, many feminists choose to remain within organized religions.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Those who stay obviously believe the women's movement can change
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: the church. Christian feminists in particular look at early church
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: history in the life of Jesus for inspiration. In the
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: community Jesus gathered around him, women retreated as equals, playing
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: central roles in their early church. Jesus told us followers
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: call no man father, no man master, and warned them
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: not to quote Lord It over others. So many Christian
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: feminists find affirmation hope in Jesus's life and teachings. Along
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: with other liberation theologians, they say the Bible puts God
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: squarely on the side of the poor and oppressed, and
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that true liberation can only come when women can take
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: their place at the very center of faith as subjects
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: rather than objects. Right Again, we're coming back to a
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: lot of conversation about trying to meet in the middle,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: trying to re establish what the Bible truly meant. And again,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: there are so many terms within Christian culture that kind
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: of goes from one to another eye. As a teacher
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: of the Bible, I'm putting that in quotes. We'll talk
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: about the word being, and we called it the Word
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: of Being, the living Word of God. So in that aspect,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the conversation and the ideal was that it grew and
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: it it didn't necessarily change, but it went with the
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: times and the idea that we don't know, we don't
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: know the true intent of what God or Jesus are,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the spiritual aspects of what it should have been, and
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: that it is supposed to be a guide. Again, we're
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: coming back to the conversation I'm getting really about literal
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: versus figurative. There's so many things and we know that
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: that happens with a lot all the religions. Buddhism has
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: that extremist versus more liberal thinking, Christianity, Judaism, all of
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: that has its own spectrum of what they believe is
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: versus figurative, what we should be looking at, what we
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: should be taking as an example of, or just a
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: story or a prophecy. Again, there's so much to that,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: and I think women for so long when you look
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: at again, and we talked about previously that if we
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: were looking at the word of Jesus alone, he never
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: comes in with those women or this is and this
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: that has never been his goal, and that was not
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: a thing that was ever preached. It is very ironic
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: that we have people who sit as leaders of churches
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: saying that their word is the authority of versus actual
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: biblical word or truth or what they want to say
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: is truth, which is, you know, the idea of Jesus.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: And again, if we take what Christianity was supposed to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: be today, which is the covering of the things that
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: you couldn't do, as in like you can't save yourself,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: that whole idea, like you're not good, you're not going
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to be good enough, which both like alleviates a little
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: bit of responsibility, but at the same time like seems
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: impossible that like you could have one extreme to another.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: And you know, with that article from nineteen eighty five,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: and I guess from that paper with Ruther, she's been
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: around for a minute, and I have been talking about
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: this for a minute as well. Not much has changed.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: The thing that has changed is I think a lot
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: of women have given up and instead of trying to
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: marry those deals together, they are leaving. As we talked
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: about it previously, especially those in the millennial gen Zeer
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: groups have truly left. I think one statistics were showing
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: like forty percent of women were like had enough of
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: the millennial group has had enough and started to slowly
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: walk away. When we look at the depth of stigmas
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: that happens within religions, and I'm having it a hard
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: time because there's so much. I have a lot of
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: people and good friends who are still very religious and
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: who still are very heavily into church, and I think
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: they are great people, and if they are doing something
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: that makes them feel hopeful and push forward, I love that.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I love that for them. But what we're seeing today
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: is that's not it. We're taking that whole ideal into
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: becoming a fascist state, and that's the scary part of
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: what we're seeing. I keep saying that because I really
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I know how important religion can be. Again, I've talked
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: about the fact that it really did help me in
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: my darkest time, but I also know how detrimental it
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: can be when this type of abuse and trauma occurs.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And we want to make sure that we are talking
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: about that in a full stretch and how we need
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: to be aware for those around us and as again
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: as the world is slowly feeling like stepping backwards and
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: speaking of that. Yeah, so kind of give you the
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: preview of next episode. Again, We're going to talk about
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the purity movement within Christianity. We're gonna talk about the
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: perfect ideal of mothers. We're gonna talk about domestic violence.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Up coming, we'll be talking about Christian nationalism as well
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: as cults. There's a lot, Yeah, there is a lot.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: There is a lot. I mean, it just touches on
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: so much that we talk about all the time here.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: So it makes sense to me that it was a
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: multi part series and it will be ongoing. So look
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: out for those episodes upcoming listeners in the meantime, If
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on this or any ideas for
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: things we should cover, you can email us. Our email
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: is Stuff in the Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most a Podcasts,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram or TikTok at stuff We Never Told You.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We also have a book coming out.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: You can pre order it at stuff you Should Read
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Books dot com. Thanks, as always too, our superproducer Christina,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey was very
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: helpful for this one. Yes did so much. Thank you
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: all so much, Yes, and thanks to you for listening.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told Us production of iHeartRadio. For more
• 36:45
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• 36:49
  Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.