Latest / Conservation Stories / Regenerating Agriculture: Principles, Proof, and Practice with Dr. Allen Williams

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Regenerating Agriculture: Principles, Proof, and Practice with Dr. Allen Williams · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:11
  Speaker B: To another episode of Conservation Stories, I'm your host, Tillery Timmons Sims. Conservation Stories is a podcast brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research Association. And we here at SARAH are always focused on what can we do to help our neighbors help and who are people that we see that are bringing help to people in agriculture and people in rural America. And we are super excited to bring a guest to you today that we've been watching for a while and have just been able to meet. And that is Alan Williams with Understanding ag. Alan, thank you so much for joining.
• 0:48
  Speaker A: It's an absolute pleasure. Glad to be here.
• 0:50
  Speaker B: I just really appreciate you taking out the time from your day and joining us. And we really, Lacy and I met you about three weeks ago or so in Chicago at a sustainable farming meeting. And there were a few of us lone ag people there and connected. And Lacy is also going to be working through the process of going through the regenerative certification. So I'm excited for us to talk about that over the course of probably the summer.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: You bet.
• 1:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, that'll be great. So we have a mix here, audience of urban and rural people and people that have been farming for a long time. And so can you give, give us a little background on yourself and like, are you new to agriculture, you're not new to agriculture and what your experience is, and then maybe how you got into this new thing that we call regenerative ag?
• 1:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, be happy to. So I, I am a lifelong farmer and rancher. I was born on my family's farm in South Carolina and I was the sixth generation. They've been there since 1840. So I have had, you know, again, a lifelong background in agriculture. I ended up going to graduate school. Quite unintentionally, I was talked into it and getting a PhD and then, then again ending up for about 15 years in academia doing research and teaching and that type of thing. And it was during that time period that I actually became very entrenched in the conventional way of doing things. Research was oriented that way, you know, pretty much everything I was doing. And. But it was also during the course of that time period that I began to see the, the disparities and the contradictions. I began to notice gradually that in spite of all the research we were doing and new products and new technologies that were being developed through research, our soils were not getting better. They were, they were getting worse, and we were more and more degraded and we were more and more reliant on external inputs. And the same thing with our livestock. Our livestock really weren't getting better, you know, they were becoming more reliant on supplementation, on pharmaceuticals, all of those types of things. And that's when I had to really begin to ask myself the hard questions. Because I'm at a land grant university, I'm supposed to be doing things that are truly helping to move agriculture forward, right? And yet by all means of measure, within the university, I was doing well, I was tenured, promoted, I brought in grant dollars, I had lots of peer reviewed publications. So by all marks of success I was doing well. But I wasn't, I wasn't really helping the true stakeholders, the farmers and ranchers. And I had to think back on, okay, how did my family for six generations make it? Not just make it, but thrive and for those generations support multiple families on the farm and yet they didn't have all of these supplements and pharmaceuticals and fertilizers and chemicals and everything else that we now we're believing that we must have to be a success. And that was the beginning of my next journey in life. And that's the regenerative journey. So after 15 years in academia, I had a decision to make. Now I'm tenured, I'm promoted, I'm fully vested and I can either stay and do another 15 years, do my 30 and retire, or I can leave. It's a very hard decision. But I decided to resign and to leave. That was in the year 2000. Went back into farming and ranching, but doing it very differently. Searching a lot of trial and error, you know, to develop what we're doing today. And then all of that gradually led to me meeting, you know, my, my now partner Gabe Brown and us deciding to form Understanding Ag and the Soil Health Academy and regenefied as, as our new companies and, and through those efforts we have now been able to work with farmers and ranchers and growers in all 50 US states and 50 plus other countries around the world and you know, multiple continents. And in the US we're working across a little better than 37 million acres. It's just been this seismic shift in my life, but it has been the very best thing I could have ever done. I would have never imagined 25 years ago when I left the university that we would be doing what we're doing today and even more important that we will be able to make the impact that we're making today. So I'm just so grateful for all of that.
• 6:11
  Speaker B: All of our journeys are kind of winding roads and I feel like sometimes the windeer the more impactful Exactly. The more trouble they are. A little more difficult they are, but they are more impactful for sure. So, yes, Gabe is up in one of the Dakotas, isn't that right?
• 6:32
  Speaker A: North Dakota, near Bismarck.
• 6:35
  Speaker B: Yeah. So he is quite a ways from you. How did you connect?
• 6:39
  Speaker A: Well, we were. And that's a very good question. We obviously, for a long time we had no clue who each other were, but we both were being asked to go on the speaking circuit. And so we met each other through that, you know, speaking at conferences and workshops and things like that. And then we both ended up serving on the board together of a conference called the Grass Fed Exchange. And so just after several years of getting to know each other and, you know, we both would hear, I, I remember the first time I heard his story, and he probably remembers the first time he heard mine. And you know, I know that I thought immediately, whoa, wait a minute, he's doing a lot of the same things that I'm doing and they're working, but yet he's way up here in North Dakota and I'm way down in Mississippi. How can this be? That this is working in two very different climates and environments. And that is one of the things that struck us and that we started talking about. And over time we just came to the realization that, hey, we need to do this together. And that was the genesis of understanding ag.
• 7:58
  Speaker B: So obviously before you met Gabe, there were people that were coming to you. They were saying, how did the word get out that you were doing something weird that was working? Well, because, you know, that's what people are saying. I mean, I'm just.
• 8:11
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, all of my former colleagues at the university thought I was absolutely crazy. Yeah. And that I, that I was absolutely destined to fail.
• 8:21
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 8:21
  Speaker A: You know, so that there was, yeah, there was no doubt about that. They were, they were even betting on my failure. And many, many other neighbors, you know, and others were, you know, just laughing and thinking, what in the heck is he? But around that same time, I became very heavily involved in the very new and emerging grass fed sector. And I developed one of the very first set of protocols and standards that are still in use today by many who are doing it. And somehow, some way, I became, you know, quote, the expert and the person that people called on. And that's. That was one of the principal things they were asking me initially to speak on, you know, was grass fed beef production and those types of things. And then it just sort of burgeoned into, like I said, everything else that we do today.
• 9:22
  Speaker B: How many years after you started farming? 5, 10 years? How many years did you really have to put in doing all this stuff before you really started to see the impact on your bottom line and on your. Your soil?
• 9:40
  Speaker A: Yeah. Nice. Truth is, I really did start seeing an impact in year one, even though, quite honestly, I was flying by the seat of my pants. The. The principal thing I was doing was. And at that point in time, I was on the farm every day, right. Which I'm not today because I'm traveling all over the place.
• 10:04
  Speaker B: But.
• 10:05
  Speaker A: But at that point in time, I was on the farm literally every day. And the one thing that I was making absolutely sure I was doing was observing, constantly observing impact of every decision of every day. And. And because I was moving the livestock every single day, you know, that allowed me to be able to make those key observations. And. And so I just kept learning and learning. And every time I would make a mistake, and believe you me, I made many. But. But every time I made a mistake, because I was there every day and observing every day, I would catch that mistake early on. I would literally run myself through a series of questions, okay, why. Why did. Why did that happen? What did you do? What caused it? And sort of forcing myself to come to a conclusion, and then I would do it differently the next day. So I had again, literally all of these days and months and years strung together of making these small mistakes, but correcting them and doing it differently and that. And I really didn't have a mentor at that time.
• 11:25
  Speaker B: I didn't ask if you were just shooting in the dark. So, okay, so what made you even have the thought about moving your cattle around? Like, where did that even originate in your mind?
• 11:38
  Speaker A: You know, and remember at that time. Yeah, so that was back in the year 2000 and even a little bit before then, in the late 90s. And, you know, we didn't have all the YouTube and, you know, social media and all the stuff we have today. So you read a lot more.
• 11:57
  Speaker B: Oh, that was.
• 11:58
  Speaker A: Imagine that. Imagine that. And so I'd actually read, you know, two or three articles, I think, you know, and stop and Grass Farmer and a few other places, you know, about some of this. And back then, you know, it wasn't called adaptive grazing, like we call it today. And there were various names. Mob grazing was one of the terms that was being used. And so I was reading about this mob grazing and people moving their. Moving their cows every day and moving them under, you know, higher stock densities and these types of things. And. And I just said well, you know what?
• 12:36
  Speaker B: That.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: That may be just crazy enough to work. And so again, I just started experimenting. It was about five years before I started being asked to go on the speaking circuit. So I was doing this for about five years after I'd left the university, tweaking and refining. And that is what led to the development of what we now call the three rules of adaptive stewardship was those years of my observing, tweaking, refining all of this. And so that's what led me to understand that there are compounding effects. So that is where the rule of compounding came from, that diversity matters. So hence the rule of diversity, and that we can't make it prescriptive. We have to keep changing things up all the time. And that's what led to the rule of disruption. And I used to be. I used to be an athlete, and. And I still work out, but I've learned, you know, from many years of. Of working out in the years of being an athlete that if you're going to progress as an athlete, you have to intentionally and routinely introduce planned, purposeful disruptions into your exercise routine. Right? And I kept thinking to myself, well, if that works for me and for anybody, then why does that not also work out on the land? Because that's biology, too. We're biology. That's biology. We're dealing with biology. And lo and behold, it does work. And so all of that just, you know, and again this. There was no one big aha moment, and everything all of a sudden became clear. But over time, just all these gradual realizations that allowed me to be able to, you know, finally develop, like I said, what we call the three rules of adaptive stewardship that we use today.
• 14:48
  Speaker B: Out here on the Texas Plains, water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our Playa Lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir catching rain, rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife. But now they need our help. In collaboration with the Texas Playa Lakes Conservation Initiative and the Cargill Global Water Challenge, Sarah has started the Our Legacy Is Tomorrow's Water initiative to inspire and work with landowners to restore and protect our playa lakes. Each playa we save helps secure a sustainable waterfield for the generations that will be coming after us. Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to making a difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the SARAH website. Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sarah-conservation.com and I love that stewardship is a big word around here because we have a friend that says, nobody what sustainability, nobody knows what the hell that is. He says, stewardship is a verb and it makes you responsible. Now, if you're a grammar Nazi, you're going to be saying, right now, stewardship is not a verb.
• 16:17
  Speaker A: There you go.
• 16:19
  Speaker B: But according to my friend Mike Hotel, here it is.
• 16:22
  Speaker A: I agree with you. I, I absolutely abhor the use of the term sustainability in agriculture, because that's impossible. It's literally impossible. You cannot sustain the land. You can't sustain all the living life that is around us on a farm, you know, just no more than we can sustain ourselves, every one of us. Every day more we live, we get a day older and we can't stop that. We don't, we don't choose to stop aging at 30 and say, okay, for the rest of my life, I'm 30 years old, you know, and I'm not going to change. Well, that, that's what sustaining is. And we can't do that. And neither can anything on your land, on your farm, in your animals and your crops. So. So that term is not correct. It has to be a better term, you know, and so the term regenerative, you know, we can regenerate land, we can reinvigorate it, you know, and all of that. And I was just over in Iceland and I spoke at their very first ever regenerative ag conference and then spent a number of days after that touring a lot of the farms over there. And they explained to me, because I asked, I said, you know, what does regenerative agriculture in English, how does that translate in Icelandic? You know, and they said, it's not a direct translation. They said, in Icelandic, here's what it means to us. Enriching the land.
• 18:07
  Speaker B: Oh, wow. Yeah, Yeah.
• 18:09
  Speaker A: I was like, oh, my God, that's beautiful. That's perfect.
• 18:13
  Speaker B: It's beyond what we. I feel like, you know, we've looked at, and just in general of more of an extraction, you know, we are looking at what do we need to do in order to extract what we need from the land. And, and it's kind of like what, what you're talking about is kind of turning that, you know, upside down on its head because you still, you need something from the land. But we are saying we're going to give to the land what it needs in order for it to provide for us.
• 18:44
  Speaker A: Right.
• 18:45
  Speaker B: There's a lot of people that are listening that may not know like some of the basics. And, and then there's some farmers that are listening that have maybe heard the word regenerative as many times as they've heard the word sustainability. You know, and I, I always get frustrated with words get co opted and overused, you know, and, but really there's not a, really not a better word than regenerating because we, I mean like it may be at some point when you are, you have reached a space or you know, a point of improvement in your soil where you're like, okay, this, this is a really healthy. And then maybe you're going, okay, now what do I do to keep doing this or to, you know, keep improving or to, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's like you have this efficiencies. You can, you get to like, the closer you get to 100% efficiency, the like, the gains are really hard. Does that make sense?
• 19:44
  Speaker A: Yep. Yep. Absolutely.
• 19:46
  Speaker B: Yeah. So you get, you kind of get. And that, that's one of the things I've seen about certifications is it's like, well, tell us what you're going to do next. And you know, the way that you're, what you're talking about is really such a fluid decision making process that you're really, you're really having to. And you've really got to slow down and be really in touch, in tune with what's going on with your soil and your land.
• 20:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker B: That's a completely different way of managing things. You know, here up to I. This is just my own personal opinion, which I have zero issues with. The science behind genetic modification, however, it did create a culture, a cultural change for us. Part of that was, you know, how we managed because it became more efficient, you know, and so it, efficiency is good, but it also has its own ripple effects and some of those are not good. You know, and then we've had the struggle of, you know, volatilization of chemicals and all the things that have come along with that that have caused even more deeper rifts within our culture. And it just seems like when our GMOs came in here, like you can just. For me. Anyway, that was the last generation that it looked like the generation before. Does that make sense? Like our lifestyle was similar to my grandma. Like I grew up canning and growing a garden. My grandmother had, you know, and grew a garden. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, I'm sure that that is uncertain that there's more to it than just one single variety of cotton. You know, it's a whole cultural shift, but it really does seem like that really brought on the difference. And you just weren't out. You didn't have to be out every day.
• 21:35
  Speaker A: Right. There was very much a cultural shift. And. And I've lived long enough to have seen that as well. You know, I was born in 1960, and. And when I was growing up on the family farm, we were much more diverse than the majority of farms today. You know, I mean, we. We had multiple types of livestock, We. We grew multiple types of crops, planted a very large garden every year. We had peaches, apples, pears, you know, on and on and on. I mean, just. And. And yes, we. I remember. I mean, you know, my mother, my grandmother did tons of canning, and the vast majority of everything that we ate every day was produced on the farm. So. So I have this incredible food experience growing up, and you're exactly right. That type of life, less than 1% of the American way, less than 1% of the american population lives that kind of life anymore. And so the vast majority of people today in the US Are so removed from how our food is really grown and raised and produced and what it takes to do that and what it means to do that. It has left this huge gap and void and understanding.
• 23:03
  Speaker B: In fact, we just recorded earlier today a podcast on Cotton Trust Protocol, and we were just talking about that not only is. Is the consumer far removed from the farm, we are far removed from the consumer. You know, and so we were talking about what. Why these certifications and this kind of thing and the frustration, you know, that I think farm. I know farmers feel. Lacy, you know, mentioned this at that meeting we were at about being the commodity that gets farmed. And, you know, I just think that the part of it is like, we need to know what our customer wants, and in. On the cotton side, they do want to know, you know, where is the people that have the privilege and the. The time to think about those things, want to know that what they're wearing, where it's coming from. And we know enough now that we know that what we wear even can, you know, impact our health.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: Yes. You know, that's the other thing that we have discovered. We've been working a lot with Dr. Stefan Van Vliet and doing metabolomic analysis on many different, you know, food products that are being produced and, and looking, doing comparison and contrast between, you know, the commodity version and the regeneratively produced version. And we're finding radical differences in that phytonutrient profile and the fatty acid profiles and all of that. And, and it's, it's pretty, pretty predictable, pretty dependable. You know, if you build the soil and build the biology in the soil and build diversity, you're building phytonutrient richness into those foods. But, but the other thing that it's doing, you know, if we talk about things like cotton crops that are producing fiber for us, it will make, first of all the cotton itself, as it's growing, stronger, more resilient. You know, it'll reduce reliance on synthetics and chemicals and else while that cotton is growing. And secondly, it'll add, you know, additional strength and quality to the cotton, to the end product. So this phytonutrient richness works in all of those ways. It's not just to, you know, to create a more nutrient dense food for us. Yes, it is that. But for any other plants that we're growing, you know, whether it's cotton, hemp or whatever, for fiber and other uses, it makes those products better, more superior.
• 25:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's. Are you, you guys are testing on that kind of stuff? It sounds like on the fiber side.
• 25:42
  Speaker A: We sure are.
• 25:43
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 25:44
  Speaker A: We're, we're, we've got, you know, clients that we're working with now. You know, they're regeneratively producing cotton and, and, and we've got clients that are regeneratively growing hemp. And so yes, we're, we're beginning to look at, you know, the impact on those end products. And, and it is a very positive impact. But, but that's logical, right? I mean.
• 26:08
  Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah.
• 26:09
  Speaker A: Healthier soil, better product.
• 26:12
  Speaker B: So when you talk about regenerative, it sounds very complex, but really it's kind of like simplified farming almost. I get. That's what it feels like to me. You know what I'm saying? It's like here's farming, original farming, 101 kind of thing.
• 26:29
  Speaker A: I'm laughing because I often use the term it's so old, it's new.
• 26:35
  Speaker B: Yes, I think that's what I'm trying to say. It's like, it seems completely unfamiliar, but yet it's still, it's there in the DNA of, of what we know.
• 26:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. And once you really, truly reconnect with this world around you, you do begin to see far better what you need to do. And, and that makes all the difference in the world. Now, now the benefit we have today, so we're doing two Things we are rediscovering the old and putting that back to work, working with nature. But, you know, today we do have the benefit of all these new technologies and different things, and, and so we're able to incorporate some of that as well to help us to better understand and understand more quickly. So I think, you know, it's the combination of both of those, the old and the new, that. Yeah, exactly. And the key thing here is that, you know, no matter what crop we're producing, soil is still soil, plants are still plants, the microbes are still the microbes. Rain is still rain, and sunlight is still sunlight. It works the same way it's worked for eons.
• 28:13
  Speaker B: Today's episode is brought to you by Evan Stone with Clear Rock Farm and Ranch, part of the Clear Rock Realty Group in Lubbock, Texas. Evan understands West Texas land, agriculture and what it takes to buy and sell farms and ranches in our unique region. If you're ready to make your next move, trust someone who knows the lay of the land. Visit Evan at clearrockrealty.com serving Lubbock and the surrounding communities. Clear Rock Farms and Ranch, your partner on the plains. I'm taking a certification, getting a certification in sustainable food systems. And one of the things that I this is something that we've studied there is this sense of, you know, they'll have one week, we'll listen to someone that's talking about, you know, small farmers and then someone that's talking about industrial agriculture, you know. And what I have found interesting is that in the process they are saying what they see happening is one side, especially the people that are promoting on the small farmer side, antagonizing the industrial, the whole that, that side of the industry. And they're saying this is not necessary, you know, this isn't necessary. There are things that each side needs from the other, you know, and I keep saying, like we don't have to destroy something completely in order to do something else. You know, it's how do we make good changes? You know, it to me, it's like I buy my husband are in the energy industry and we look at, you know, there's a lot of people that, you know, struggle with just how ugly the, you know, our big window mills are here that are these wind charger things. And of course pump jacks are not like the most attractive thing that's ever been on the planes. But you know, the frustration of what's taking on for our ag line on the solar and that kind of stuff and what we see is we're gonna need six times the amount of energy that we have right now very quickly. And we need energy from every single source that we can possibly get. And you can't turn off an industry like fossil fuels and not people are going to be hurt by that. The people will die, as we saw when we had no energy in Texas during, you know, that snowstorm Yuri. So I. I've enjoyed this class because I feel like it has given both sides negatives and positives of both sides and said, let's see how we can. How. How can we keep and make better both of these avenues of getting food, food and fiber to people.
• 30:54
  Speaker A: Absolutely. It. So here's the deal. I mean, regenerative is a journey. We don't even know the final destination. Gabe will say it, and I'll. And I say it. We, neither Gabe nor I, even on our own farms or any other farm around the world, have come across what we would call a fully regenerated piece of land.
• 31:17
  Speaker B: Oh, wow.
• 31:17
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's all degraded to some extent right through. Through the eons of our activity. And, and so we. Therefore, there's no one living today that could accurately describe what 100% regeneration looks like.
• 31:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 31:38
  Speaker A: We just can't.
• 31:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:39
  Speaker A: But here's what we do know. We know what's better, okay. And we know if it's either continuing to improve or if it's not. So we do know that. And a lot of that is measurable. It's quantifiable, okay? And we're doing that. We are measuring it and quantifying it. So we do know if it's better. And then that led to. Really, the basis of what we do within regenefied, to be honest with you, is, you know, the way that the protocols and standards were developed for regenefied in the tiered system is very much a reflection of the fact that this is a journey. And if we want to get more and more farmers, ranchers and growers on this journey, we first have to allow them to start. You know, how. How do you start any journey? You. You know, you don't. If I'm gonna drive from Mississippi to California, I. I don't. You know, this is not a dream of genie. And I blink my eyes and all of a sudden I'm in California, right? I mean, I have to drive the first mile first, then the second mile, and then keep accumulating the miles, and then finally I end up in California. So this journey is very much the same way As a farmer, I have to drive that first mile first. And if we don't give them the opportunity to do that and to make some mistakes and to learn as they go, then we're not going to have very many getting on this journey. It's going to become just like the organic sector. You know, we've had 30 plus years, and yet it's still. Of the agronomic acres in the US it still amounts to less than 1% of all acres. But that's because you either are or you're not.
• 33:38
  Speaker B: Right.
• 33:38
  Speaker A: You know, there's no allowance for being anywhere in between. Right?
• 33:43
  Speaker B: That's right.
• 33:45
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that, I mean, literally, I mean, as a farmer, I can state this, and I've been an organic farmer. Okay. But I can absolutely state this, that, and I mean, a certified organic farmer. I'm still an organic farmer, but I dropped the certification. But my point is, is that we work with thousands and thousands of farmers, and I've heard it over and over again that I can't even justify beginning the organic journey. But that's why they like the system that we've developed within Regenefied, they can begin, not be condemned, not be put down. Right. And all of this, but they can begin and then continuously progress. Which is exactly what happens with regenerative. The other thing about organic certification and many other. I'm not just picking on that. Most certifications are either you are or you're not. And if you are, there's no differentiation among those.
• 34:48
  Speaker B: Right.
• 34:48
  Speaker A: Because you can be just sort of barely there and get certified, or you can be really, really good, but you still have the same certification. There's no distinction. Right.
• 34:59
  Speaker B: You could get certified and not be there at all. Just saying. We've seen it.
• 35:03
  Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. We've seen that. But with regenefied, it was designed very specifically to first allow them to just simply begin the journey. Okay. And then to recognize that it takes time on this journey. But regenerative is all about making continuous progress. Right. So it's designed so that, you know, you reach tier one and then you have so many years to make further improvements, reach tier 2, and then that process repeats itself and each time you move up a tier. So you. So you have this reward for the additional work that you've done, and you're recognized for that. But at the same time, everybody can start the journey. The other thing that we saw had to happen is it must be scalable. If we're going to really impact enough land and enough consumers, then you've got to make this scalable. That's the only way this can happen. And it's got to be scalable both for the farmer and the grower and the rancher and for all of the businesses, the CPGs and so forth.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: Right, right, that. And, you know, that's funny because that's not something I feel like people think about a lot, is how much it's not just the farmer, but it's this whole ecosystem around them that really is impacted, is impacted by whether they're doing good or not. You know, Lacey is going to be moving towards the certification. We visited about that a few weeks ago, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on, was to kind of give us a foundation of what that's going to look like. So she has, you know, she's BCI and then she's Contrast Protocol, and she is Regent Agri and Gap, which is, I think, her cattle side, though now she's going to add this. But to me, when I look at the certifications, what's exciting to me about this is that this is a usda. This is going to be recognizable in the way that we see like an organic, usda, certified organic symbol. Like you guys have. Have done this the farm way. You went like to the powers that that be that set and help create these kind of standards and things. And so tell us a little bit about, about that. And you know, also that there's constantly other people trying to create other certificates. But your certification is set apart because of. What would you say?
• 37:34
  Speaker A: Well, several things. First, because the company was founded by real farmers who have been there, done that. We've lived it, we've experienced it, and we've taught it to many, many others around the world. So we have decades of experience actually doing this. So it's not a certification based on academics, on theory, anything like that. It is a certification based on hardcore reality. Second, again, as I said, it's a certification that allows true scalability. And unfortunately, the vast majority of certifications out there actually work against scalability. So, again, our mission and vision impact as many acres around the world as well we can, and impact as many people around the world as we can. So how am I doing that when I limit the scalability? The third is it reflects reality.
• 38:33
  Speaker B: You know, that's the big difference.
• 38:35
  Speaker A: Yeah. As we talked about earlier, it's a journey, and we've got to allow for that journey to occur.
• 38:43
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things, is that this is really such a grassroots. It's like from the bottom, bottom up, you know, instead of what we. We've seen working with organizations that are trying to create some type of certification. I've been in rooms when there's like two farmers and 500 other people, and they're trying to decide how they want to create, you know, a certification. And they've never even been out in the field. They don't, they don't have a single clue. Now, they might know what they think they need, what they need, but do they know if it's even realistic for that to be provided to them or not? Or what is that the impact going to be? And shocking to me how many of them have never talked to a farmer or, or, or if they do, you never, you know, you talk to them and then they, you never hear from them again because they want what they want, and then they can't figure out why they're not getting anywhere.
• 39:36
  Speaker A: Well, so we were all at what was termed the Regenerative Agriculture Summit.
• 39:43
  Speaker B: It was regenerate. That's right.
• 39:44
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes, exactly. And yet farmers, ranchers and growers were very, very much in the minority.
• 39:53
  Speaker B: Oh, absolutely, yes.
• 39:55
  Speaker A: And, and the most of us, you know, the majority of us that were there were there only because we had been invited to sort of serve as the token.
• 40:04
  Speaker B: Yes, Farmer. Right.
• 40:06
  Speaker A: On a panel. You know, that's true, but not for real input. But yet I see conference after conference that name themselves regenerative agriculture. Regenerative this, regenerative that. And there's few to no farmers there. They're not inviting the farmers in. That conference should have been 90% farmers.
• 40:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, it makes, you know, and you get there. And, and I'm, I'm, I do. I will say this. I feel like we go to a lot of these things, and part of it is just we're trying to find those people, you know, and you find those people and bringing those opportunities back home is. That's our goal. And, you know, and that's. I feel like for us, you know, we made like four connections at that regenerative thing. And, you know, part of it is, is just being salty, you know, like, Lacey is super salty. And people would come up to me and say, oh, do you work with that little redhead girl? Redhead girl? I was like, yes, the one that we're going to be quoting. Yes, that's, that's who I work with, you know, and, and so the people that you can tell, the people that really, really care and that really do have an intent of doing something different, you can see it when you're in a roundtable and you can see when they totally do not care what you think. And I try to figure out why the heck are you here.
• 41:35
  Speaker A: Right, right.
• 41:37
  Speaker B: Except. Except who's making the money. You know, this is what happened. You mentioned hemp while ago. This is what happened in hemp in Texas. It was the same thing with the emu eggs. It was like, who, who held the conferences? That's who made the money. The person who sold the tickets to their event made money for the most part. It was like, that's who's making the money. And that's what I feel like here. And that, to Lacey's point at that meeting was, I feel like I'm being the one that's. I'm the one being farmed at this conference. I'm the commodity here.
• 42:07
  Speaker A: That's why I love, you know, of course, I didn't even know her before that conference. Right.
• 42:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:13
  Speaker A: And. And that's why I loved, in that session on, on that first day when she spoke up and she basically called a spade. Spade.
• 42:24
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, she does.
• 42:25
  Speaker A: And I was like, wow, this in. And the truth is she opened the door for a handful of the rest of us, right. To be able to make some very pertinent comments as well. And so I was super grateful to her for opening that door and for being willing to just stand up, you know, because, I mean, there were a lot of very powerful people in the room, right. Representing all of these multibillion dollar global companies. And she's, she's sort of, as we say, telling them how the cow ate the corn. And it literally changed the session because the session started off being a moan and groan session about Trump cutting the climate smart dollars and oh, my goodness, what are we going to do to help the farmer and the rancher now? And, and you know, and then all of a sudden she's like, wait a minute, what are you doing to help us right now anyway? What were you doing? What were you going to do with the climate smart dollars to help us, you know?
• 43:31
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 43:31
  Speaker A: And, and I was like, oh, man, this is, this is so beautiful.
• 43:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a company there bragging about the, you know, how much money they'd given to, to, you know, farmers. And I was like, that wasn't your money you gave. That was our tax dollars that, like, don't be taking a big bow for, you know, given our tax dollars, you know, as incentives, especially when 99% of the time they weren't, you know, anything really great. Anyway.
• 43:59
  Speaker A: Well, and that's the truth. And the honest truth is most of the climate quote, climate smart projects, we're never going to move the needle.
• 44:13
  Speaker B: Meaning you, you funded more, just more of the same.
• 44:18
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean.
• 44:20
  Speaker B: It was just adding additional funds to things that we, you know, do, but never, but not in a way that really provided any real incentives. Does that make, I mean like, and, and then half the time if you were already participating in a carbon program, you couldn't, you can participate in a climate Smart grant because you, it had carbon already.
• 44:42
  Speaker A: That's correct.
• 44:43
  Speaker B: So I mean it kicked out, it kicked out a bunch of people. So it does need to be restructured. And I mean I like to see that kind of money come into agriculture because it's to me just part of national security. This should be part of the defense budget. The army moves on its stomach, you know what I'm saying? I'm like to me agriculture is as important as defense because we, we all need to eat and we all need to be healthy and it, I mean it's just a no, no brainer to me, you know, but so we kind of, this is my, my whole thing, I'm rabbit trailed everywhere. But so Lacey has, she's, you know, they cover crop when they can. They're neighbors to Jeremy Brown and you guys are working with Jeremy already on certification and they've already got, you know, some data that they've, she has the, apparently the longest running data on the types of her bringing her cattle in along with the COVID crops. She has the longest running data I think in this area for that kind of information. It's, it's really nice peer reviewed research. But what, what are you going to be looking at with her?
• 45:53
  Speaker A: Well, it'll, you know, it'll, it'll be a combination of things regeneratified. Our verifiers actually measure and quantify more than 65 different data points. And, and so it's a combination of taking hard measurements, you know, like soil samples are collected to assess soil chemical, fiscal and biological and that's critically important. And biological characteristics. There are biodiversity assessments, there are productivity assessments. They assess the management practices that are being applied and how they're impacting. And most important out of the entire verification is the assessment and scoring based on what we call the six, three, four, the six principal principles of soil health, the three rules of adaptive stewardship and the four ecosystem processes. How well is the farm or the ranch, you know, conforming to the proper application of the principles and the rules to Optimize capture of the four ecosystem processes. Yeah. And then, you know, we do, we also offer and provide, you know, the phytonutrient testing and all of that that I mentioned earlier earlier as additional data. So, so it's an incredibly robust data set. And of course, that data belongs to the farmer and the rancher. It's their data.
• 47:30
  Speaker B: So I'm, I'm just, I'm super excited about getting started on this. And one thing I've been thinking about doing is going through the, the Soil Health Academy just, you know, just so that I can have a real, a better basis of knowledge as we are going through this process. Process. And so tell the audience kind of like, who is that geared towards and how do they, how do we participate in that?
• 47:54
  Speaker A: First of all, they can view upcoming schools@soilhealthacademy.org and see, you know, all the schools that will be offered. They are three day schools. They're very hands on, very practical out in the field, you know, some classroom. But we like to spend a lot of time out in the field and, you know, there'll be lots of time to interact and to learn how to implement. They'll, they'll get a very solid foundation of again, the six principles and the three rules and the four ecosystem processes, but they'll be taught how to apply those within their very specific individual farm or ranch context.
• 48:39
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 48:40
  Speaker A: And see, that's how you're most successful. Yeah. Everything has to be applied within your context. Yeah.
• 48:47
  Speaker B: Have you taught, have you had a Soil Health Academy in, in our area on the west, this west side of Texas?
• 48:52
  Speaker A: Yes, we have. And we've had them in eastern New Mexico and, you know, all of that. So we've had academies in the past in that region. We typically have academies, you know, scattered, scattered across the US And Canada, but we also do academies and workshops in many other countries throughout the year as well. Yeah.
• 49:12
  Speaker B: Well, Alan, I'm really grateful that you, you gave us your time today. I know we, we. I feel like sometimes there's so much that I want to get out of a person that I, I follow too many rabbit trails, so we may have to. Well, we will be doing more podcasts over the coming months as we work through this certification process with Lacey and hopefully we will be able to wrangle her to come on. She is very reluctant to come on the podcast, so it's a miracle to get her on. So anyway, but I look forward to, you know, learning myself and, and then maybe, you know, teaching that to, to other people. I'm I'm just excited about this whole process and you know the partnerships that are developing out of some coming to some of these meetings that you think are a waste of time. So I'm glad that you were there in Chicago and I'm glad we were there as well.
• 50:01
  Speaker A: Same here. In spite of the fact that we were sort of the tokens there there were some very positive meetings and and so I feel deeply rewarded by that and I'm very much looking forward to continuing this journey with y' all.
• 50:18
  Speaker B: Well friends I'm looking forward to you all following along on this journey and be sure to leave us some comments if you we probably did a lot of talking over some folks heads and we don't want to bore our farmers either that know way more so trying to keep that balance but you got any questions let us know and we are looking forward to more of these episodes and hope that you will join us again on Conservation Stories.