Latest / Boner and Mirror Tarot / The Devil Is Sexy...and That Is The Problem
Transcript
- Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and every week three Tarot cards will end this podcast. One gets fucked, one gets married and one gets pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing because if you know me and you know Bona and Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe the Tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror. a way of meeting yourself through symbolism and psychology, embodiment and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona Emeritaro takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling and which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange ways we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiments, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. And if you want to take the game off the podcast and into your own tarot practice, then I've made something for you. A little field guide called Tarot After Dark. It's packed with ridiculous tarot games, guided reflections, explorations of projection and desire. So you can make your own terrible decisions. and then get curious about what the hell that might reveal about you. you can grab it completely free through the link in my show notes or the link in my bio on Instagram. So whether you're here for the psychology, the Tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Miratorro. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity, and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. I am absolutely delighted to welcome my guests today. Welcome Victoria from Tarot and Transformation. So excited to have you here. Would you like to or could you tell us about yourself? Tell us what it is that you do, your relationship to Tarot and your relationship to meaning making. vsm: Wow, thank you so much for having me. really excited. Love doing pods, especially one that has a really fun theme like this. So I'm Victoria. I am the founder of Tower and Transformation, but I am primarily an executive coach. So I've been running my own coaching practice for a decade since leaving corporate back in 2015. So I work primarily with sort of senior leaders, big groups within the corporate world. and I have been integrating Tarot into that work for the last 10 years and then I set up a Tarot training program. So teaching Tarot as a tool for personal growth back in 2021 and then that has evolved over the years into a standalone Tarot teaching business called Tarot and Transformation. where yeah, I use Tarot, teach Tarot as a way of making meaning of this human experience and really a portal to explore our inner world. Molly: Thank you so much. I just absolutely love that you're bringing tarot into the corporate world. vsm: Yes, good fun. Molly: I really get some interesting images coming up in my mind, vsm: Thank Molly: how kind of corporate people maybe receive the tarot, but I think it is such a beautiful way to really... dig underneath there are kind of tendencies vsm: Thank Molly: to approach situations in a cognacentric way so I can imagine that it's surprisingly effective and that I'm sure, I'm sure. vsm: my god, they absolutely love it. Molly: Yeah and I think it's such a wonderful thing to bring into corporate world. think corporate world needs a little bit more whimsy so thank you vsm: Yeah. Molly: very much for doing the hard work out there. vsm: Yeah, Molly: bringing it out into the corporate. vsm: love it. Molly: As you know, we are here to play a highly scientific and deeply philosophical game with our shared love of the Tarot. So are you ready to make some interesting choices? vsm: I am, I'm really excited about this. I was telling you before we started recording that I've always known this as Shag Mary, K-I-L-L. So I'm really curious how it's going to be different with it Fuck Mary, Push Over Cliff. Molly: push of a cliff. think we'll see how that goes. See who's gonna maybe land in the water, land on a trampoline, vsm: and Molly: whatever's gonna happen. Maybe they're willing to kind of jump. I think we were talking about this before we recorded, we? That the fool would probably be quite willing to step off the edge if instructed to. vsm: Yeah, I'd love that. Molly: But yes, I'm going to pull three cards from vsm: when Molly: the... Classic, the Light Seers by Croissant. Do you have this deck? vsm: I do, might actually pull it out and then I can, if I feel like it, can pull the cards as well. Molly: Okay, so we have... No, vsm: Have I got the full? Don't tell me the full came out. Molly: we haven't got the full, but we do have a very, very interesting mix. And yeah, I don't know how much of an easy choice this is going to be. So I'll start with our lovely hermit. vsm: okay. Molly: So we have that permit. We then have the three of swords. vsm: Oofa Molly: Oof, indeed. And then we have the five of swords. Double oof. vsm: my god, what did we do? What did we do in a previous life? Molly: So, and do you know what? I always really enjoy these episodes because I think when sometimes cards will come out and you know, you've got one of the really difficult swords and vsm: and Molly: then you've got the star and you're like, well, well, obviously I know what's going to happen vsm: this. Molly: here. But actually, I think this, the difficulty makes it more of an interesting conversation. So what are your vsm: Yeah. Molly: kind of initial reactions to the Hermit, three of swords and five of swords? vsm: So my initial reaction is that there's not much joy in there. I would probably fuck the hermit, but that makes me feel a bit weird because the typical hermit is like an old man. Like Gandalf vibes and I'm a bit like, do I have a crush on Gandalf? Well, I would probably fuck the hermit. and I don't know what I would do with the three and the five of swords. I think I'd probably Molly: Hmm vsm: marry the five of swords and push, no, marry the three and push the five off a cliff. Molly: Ooh, okay. So my first response was like, well, there's no possible way that I could marry either of the swords. vsm: You Molly: Like, well, I couldn't possibly, so I have to marry the hermit. So I'd be really interested to hear kind of that thought process between, because you were quite firm on fucking the hermit. You were like, yep, that feels like the right decision. And we can maybe have a think about, I think I've got a crush on Gandalf. I see where you're coming from. I've got the hots vsm: I forgot the hots for Gandalf. Molly: for, like, there's something wizened. There's what? There's wisdom there. vsm: You Molly: I think he'd know what he was doing. I'm so curious about how have you made the decision between the three and the five? vsm: Well, I actually think I'm changing my mind now. So I'm definitely pushing the five of swords off a cliff Molly: Yeah, goodbye. vsm: because I'm like, it just gives like tortured artist vibes. Like, look, look how difficult my life is. I don't think I have much like compassion or empathy for people who get, really like trapped in their own thoughts. I'm like, just, just like, just get over it. but I think this gives like tortured artists vibes and maybe it's because of the image in this deck as well. but I think so initially I said, fuck the hermit and marry the three of swords, but I think I might actually switch them Molly: Mmm. vsm: because I think the three of swords might be quite a like goth emo teenage fuck like like so we're all so like you know reclaimed and full of full of emotion I think that might be quite like weirdly enjoyable. Molly: Mm. And I think like it brings me, yeah, it brings me back to that. I'm glad you brought that kind of like emo side out. Like, there's certainly a part of like my, my kind of teenage hood that though, like, you know, listening to quite dark music and getting into vsm: Yes. Molly: that kind of like solemn vibe that, that I think I wouldn't be able to marry. Because for me, the Three of Swords, and I think it's interesting, because I think the Three of Swords and the Five of Swords for me are very similar, vsm: Mmm. Molly: but the Five of Swords is just quite cold. Whereas the Three of Swords... vsm: Yeah and the five of swords is more in the head, it doesn't have any connection to the heart the way I Molly: Mm. vsm: feel it. Molly: Yeah, absolutely. There's a really beautiful image of the Five of Swords. It's one of my favourites. It's from the Tarot of Oneness, which is a point of view deck. vsm: you Molly: So you're kind of in, you're looking out from the perspective of the energy of the card. And that vsm: Wow. Molly: image is just a bare bit of concrete that's got cracks in it and there's kind of vsm: I mean. Molly: weeds growing. And then there's a chalice or a kind of trophy. that's looking a bit dusty. And it really reminds me of this kind of phrase of, or it makes me think of this phrase of like, okay, yeah, you've won, but at what cost? And I think the vsm: No Molly: five of swords is that point where it's so in story, so, you know, so unwilling to let go of story. vsm: Yeah. Molly: that it's like, vsm: Yeah. Molly: yeah, okay. It's to the point where it becomes really cold, really calculated. It's just like all in the head, all in logic. And so that phrase of, okay, yeah, you've won. You may have done something to appease your story in some way, at what cost? vsm: Yeah. Molly: Like what have you lost? And you've lost that sense of connection to the heart, sense of connection to self. Whereas Three of Swords also vsm: Bye. Molly: is deeply, deeply entrenched in story. vsm: I know. Molly: there's lots of kind of not good enoughs and you know, but there is a connection to emotion there. I find the Three of Swords to be that first time that we, I don't know if you've ever done this, where we have a story about self. So I mean, I've already been fairly vulnerable on the podcast. So don't mind saying that like, I have vsm: you Molly: a story of second best. Like I always think that I'm gonna be second best to somebody. And nothing would have happened in that day. but I could be sat on my sofa and that little thought of second bestness will pop in and it will spiral vsm: you Molly: and spiral and spiral until I end up feeling emotionally drained. I can end up making myself cry. Over what? Nothing's happened vsm: Bye. Molly: to me. But the brain is so powerful that it can influence my emotional and energetic body. And I think that for me, that's the three of swords. It's, yes, it's entrenched in story, but it's still connected to emotion in some way. vsm: way. Molly: And so whilst they're both, you know, very wrapped up in headiness, the five of swords has a cold calculatedness that I'm like, yep, off the cliff. But the three of swords, I just don't think that I could marry somebody who is, yeah, so caught up in story. And I say this knowing that I also have many, many moments where I'm caught up in story. So that this vsm: Yeah. Molly: is not, this isn't to say, you know, I'm fixed everybody. never have stories at all, but I just know that if something that I'm looking for in marriage or a partner, I don't think I could commit to someone who's not willing to work on the story. you know, the same vsm: Mmm. Molly: is just giving like, yeah, it's given not marriage vibes for me. vsm: So I love the kind of meaning making journey that you just narrated there. That was really, really enjoyed that. And the word that comes up for me with the five of swords there is rigid, rigidity. I find rigidity very, very challenging. that yeah and then and then when you when you were talking about the three of swords it really did it really makes me feel like a teenager this card because i actually obviously all the swords are about stories but i find i don't associate stories with the three of swords because it feels really raw it's it's the the Molly: . vsm: raw experience of pain it is the most Molly: Mm. vsm: cups card of the swords i think Molly: Yeah. vsm: It is what someone's really experiencing. And Molly: Mmm. vsm: there's story in there, but for some reason it feels much more real than some of the other swords cards. Molly: Yeah. vsm: And it just, yeah. And I think I'm Scorpio Moon. I love a bit of like pain and depth and like, let's, you know, let's swim to the bottom of the ocean. Well, not even the ocean, the bottom of the swamp and like mill around in all the darkness. So I actually, Molly: Mmm. vsm: quite, it's quite Alanis Morissette and I find that quite sexy. So yeah. So this is Molly: yeah. Yeah. vsm: my Alanis Morissette card, I think. Molly: I really like kind of what you said about like it's the most cups of the swords and I agree with you like especially because I mean the depiction has a heart in it right so you might immediately jump to this is emotion but something that I find and I'm gonna bring in some tantric philosophy here is vsm: That's it. Molly: that in tantric philosophy the there is a teaching which is called the kind of the five layers of self and one of the vsm: and Molly: layers of self which is called cheetah is the the heart mind. And so from the vsm: Thank Molly: perspective of tantric philosophy, and this is from a lineage of Kashmir Shaivism, the heart and the mind energetically are exactly the same thing. So there isn't a separation. So I mean, if tantric philosophy vsm: you Molly: created a tarot deck, it probably wouldn't create two separate suits. I'm kind of hypothesizing here because the citta, the heart mind is of the same frequency. And that's why, you know, of know that our emotions can influence our thoughts and our thoughts can influence our emotions and I think the three of swords really perfectly represents that kind of the way in which that heart mind works because it's the three of swords is not all mind but it certainly isn't all emotion either it's like that entanglement and as I'm saying this I'm looking at the card and I'm seeing the threads of that of that and I'm like that is vsm: Yeah. Yeah. Molly: the entanglement of the heart mind and It is very Alanis Morissette. is very vsm: and Molly: put your headphones on, listen to. What vsm: Yeah. Molly: was my go-to? I really liked a little bit of Christian heavy metal when I was a teenager. Or a little bit of Evanescence, you know? And I vsm: Yes. Molly: had a profile picture where I had my fringe in front of my face and a bit of dark eyeliner. So I think vsm: Yeah, it's golf. Molly: that I'm totally picking up on those vibes. And look, if we were picking from 78 cards in the deck, would we say that the three of swords is the sexiest? Probably not, but we haven't been given. vsm: I mean of this three, the three of sorts is definitely the sexiest. Molly: Yeah, like we haven't been given a very good set of sexy choices. So we've, we've got to make do, we've got to make do. So I am totally on board with you. Five of Swords is going off the cliff. Like, you know, he cold calculated rigid vsm: We chased that. Molly: and three of Swords. Yeah, tortured artist. vsm: tortured artist, bad behaviour, bad behaviour, yeah. Molly: Off you go. Three of Swords, not necessarily the sexiest card on the deck. but is giving that emo Alanis Morissette evanescence vibe. And then the vsm: you Molly: hermit. vsm: it's really interesting that we pulled this one because the episode I listened to was the one with Haya Manky before we were recording this and you guys were talking about the Eight of Cups and I find a lot of similarities between the Hermit and the Eight of Cups and this is very much, this is quite the vibes of my own marriage. So I'm married to someone who, and I have been for 12 years and we have a wonderful marriage, we're very independent. We spend a lot of time apart. He's an Aquarius son. He's got Aquarius in every part of his. Uranus is basically all over his chart. He's a very kind of outsider archetype. And Molly: you vsm: he goes off. My son and I just went away with family, with my family for a week. And my husband went to Georgia on his own for a week and literally hiked up to the top of a mountain to see a monastery. He is the hermit. Molly: He's the helmet. vsm: Like that, and that works for us as a marriage. In fact, it feels like a very safe, spacious, connected marriage for me. Molly: Mmm. vsm: So actually the more I think about it, like, maybe that's why I said fuck, because I would obviously fancy my husband. But like, this is a marriage that works for me. This kind of, let's have space, let's learn, let's have our own experiences. and then let's come back together in this shared space that we call home and you know talk or not talk. So actually it feels Molly: Mmm, yeah. vsm: like a really like connected marriage for me. Molly: Yeah, and I think there's something very special about someone who is able to be with self, you know, it's one of those classic quotes, like, you've been through a breakup and it's like, well, you know, like, you need to be happy in your own company first. And I think that despite seeing it so... so much over social media after I just had a breakup and I was like, fuck you, fuck you, I hate you. But totally right, you vsm: Yeah. Fuck you! Molly: have to be okay with yourself first. And I think the hermit is one of those characters or archetypes that is, it's not dependent on the love. And therefore, if it's not dependent on the love, you know that they wanna be there. You know that they are, you know, they're in it because they'd be fine on their own. vsm: Exactly. Yes. Yes. Molly: but they're choosing to come back and choosing to be vsm: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Molly: with you in it. So I... vsm: Yeah, I'm not married to you just because I need to be in a monogamous relationship or in like an interdependent relationship. I married you because you enrich my life. And Molly: Mmm. vsm: I'm having been married for 12 years, like marriage is a choice you make every single day because Molly: Mmm. vsm: it is so fucking difficult as anyone Molly: Mmm. vsm: who's been in a long term, you you've been in long term relationships, so you know how difficult it is. Molly: It's work. vsm: And it's such work. Molly: Mm, 100%. vsm: Mmm. Molly: I have two final questions for you and they're very quick fire. They're quick fire. So just like whatever comes out. Who is the sexiest card in the deck and who is the biggest red flag? vsm: Well, the sexiest card in the lights is definitely the devil, hot devil. So hot, like, Molly: He's so. vsm: he's so hot, like these big blue eyes. He reminds me of Jeremy Allen White, who's also a massive red flag. I'm sure Jeremy Allen White is a very nice guy, but like that whole archetype of like torture. Molly: Mmm... vsm: Do you know what I would say actually, the sexiest and the red flag is probably the devil. And doesn't that speak to like one of the... core tensions, core conflicts within relationships is that what makes Molly: you vsm: people sexy is also probably what makes them a red flag. Like I remember Molly: Mmm. vsm: reading a book of life book once by what's his name, Alan de Bottin, Alan de Bottin, whatever his name is. And he was talking about like the reason like sex and intimacy and long-term relationships is so challenging. is that the energy and the behavior and the qualities that make someone attractive, mysterious, will they leave me, da da da, does not make for a good long-term partner. So there's this quote like, Molly: Mmm. vsm: what makes someone sexy and what makes them a red flag is often the same thing. And I think that's Molly: Mmm. vsm: something that we will be grappling with until the end of days. Molly: Yeah, so interesting. You've opened up a whole new podcast episode where a special of talking about that kind of, yeah, that bad boy archetype, if I can say. I'm thinking vsm: and Molly: of Damon Salvatore from The Vampire Diaries, who is incredibly sexy, but also a massive red flag. But, you know, like the vsm: Yeah. Molly: layers underneath, when you kind of get to the gems underneath of the surface level, there is some... you know, humanity there. that's, you're the first person that's picked the same card for two questions. So I am. vsm: well, love to... Sun-Uranus conjunction, I love to be surprising. I love to be the first. Molly: I am deeply curious and excited to hear what people will say in the comments about the devil is both the vsm: Ooh, we take. Molly: sexiest and the red flag. we will see. Let us know vsm: Yeah. Molly: on Instagram, let us know in Spotify comments, what do you think? But I just want to say a massive thank you to you for such a enriching conversation, for coming vsm: Thank you. Molly: along and for playing the game. Yeah, so I'm going to bid our listeners a Farewell, and we will see you next time. Bye bye. vsm: Bye. Molly: And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who would definitely have an argument with a tarot card. And if you've been listening and thinking, I need to play this game, then good news, I have made you something. Tarot After Dark is my completely free field guide to desire, projection and questionable relationships with archetypes. Inside, you'll find Fuck, marry, push off a cliff, tarot date, red flag, green flag, unfortunately hot, and a whole collection of ridiculous ways to play with the cards. alongside slightly more serious psychology of why these games can actually tell us something about ourselves. Because sometimes deciding that you'd shag the night of ones is just funny, and sometimes asking why tells you considerably more than you'd expect. You can download Tarot After Dark for free using the link in the show notes or the link in my bio. And if that gets you curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore Tarot through depth psychology, embodiment and transpersonal practices. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror Tarot, where I share readings, workshops and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And finally, if you're listening and thinking I would love to come on the podcast and make some terrible decisions of my own, I would genuinely love to hear from you. Send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep laughing, keep getting curious, and remember, we take the tarot seriously, we just don't take ourselves too seriously.