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Cutting Through the Hype of Skincare Marketing with Chemist Confessions’ Founders · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Secret Anarchy.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host Extra, and I have two incredible guests with me today.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've been like a secret fan of theirs for quite a while now because I follow their page pretty closely and have for a while, and they're really, you know, true leaders in the field of chemistry, and just the content they put out is just so honest and just stuff that we need to know as consumers, I feel like.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: So also love their line.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: They have their own skincare line.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely phenomenal.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Gloria and Victoria, who are the co-founders of Chemist Confessions.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, guys.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so honored to host both of you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Glad that we can finally make this happen.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy to be talking to you and a fan of the podcast for some time ourselves.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for having us.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be funny.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want to dive in and I want to learn about your backgrounds.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe Gloria, you could get a start as and tell us a little bit about what you guys were doing before you started, you know, chemist confessions and just what led up to the creation of not only your media outlet, but your brand and everything.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think in college I studied uh chemical engineering.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's been so long I just stumbled thinking about it.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time I was kind of a lost college kid, didn't know what I wanted to do.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it felt like my education was leading up to fields that I honestly wasn't super interested in.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So when an internship in the beauty industry fell in my lap, I took it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of how I got started.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: And at that time, and after the internship, I transitioned into a full-time gig at L'Oreal in the skincare lab.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that was such a dream job at the time.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you were able to apply everything you learned in school in a fast-paced environment.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: You get to see your work on shelves within a couple years of the project.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was already new and exciting.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we learned a lot on the jobs and the time I worked on, specializing high-level active brands.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: So things like chemical peels, super high levels of vitamin C, things like that.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I was lucky and then I got a head start in learning about active ingredients and what they do for skin.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I think after a few years, I realized that the industry is just so marketing driven.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: It just feels like when my friends of my friends and family asked me, does this product really work?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Do I really need this toner and serum?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I find myself not knowing how to answer that question because it's it just feels like such a disconnect with what I know on the science side and what consumers are fed on the marketing end.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that kind of led me to start thinking about leaving.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually that drive becomes strong enough that I I left.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: I left a big company.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, luckily I have a partner including Victoria.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of how the the inception of Chemist Confession is just seeing all the confusion out there, just wanting to share some good insights.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Victoria, is that that's when you guys met as well, and you just met the at L'Oreal and then started from Yeah, yeah.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I don't want to sound like it's like a story and repeat, but similar path as well.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I Glory and I joke that a lot of chemical engineers are just lost.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so is the same.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also study chemical engineering and I was kind of on track to go into pharma, but that that just was not the career path for me, especially if I'm about to dedicate many decades of my life to it.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so, same thing, was lucky enough to land a job at L'Oreal in the skincare lab.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Gloria and I were cubicle buddies, so that's how we kind of befriended each other.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think through that, and I'm sure Ecta, you know, like our from our social media side, we're like two kind of quirky, you know, just people.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how we bonded.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we definitely lamented about how little control chemists have in the project in terms of project development, formulation development, driving decisions.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we actually touched so many aspects of the formula, not like that.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, you know, a lot of people think chemists is just only what's in the bottle, but we actually have to take part in everything to make sure that the formula actually is shelf stable.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know people can imagine that's like making sure the formula is happy with the packaging itself, the formula can hold up through all the different types of weather that the skincare might be in.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: The formula can be can we can take a formula on a lab bench that's like maybe only 100 grams to something that's like a one-ton scale.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of different technical aspects that chemists have to know and kind of we have to be able to problem solve to make sure how are we going to get some really, really awesome ingredients to be happy in this product and deliver those benefits in a safe way with all of these factors that we have to take into account, which is why I think Gloria and I are kind of, I think even though we really thought about leaving the industry together, we're kind of addicted to that kind of problem solving.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of why we, in a way, never left and started Chemist Confessions instead, because we realized that, like Gloria said, the education we've seen change through consumer wants.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: We firsthand through our education blog got to see consumers be hungry to learn more, be hungry for change, and see how that's changed marketing communication and how products are even being talked about now.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think Laura and I ever predicted that we would get to see actual ingredients like slapped in front and center on the bottle, or hear celebrities talk about hyaluronic acid.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like every change from when we first started.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love everything that you said because I feel like you're so like on point with the idea that you know now it's like we've it's almost like bringing science to the front.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I always think of like the Wizard of Oz and where science is no longer behind the curtain.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like finally like taking, you know, front and center.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: But that's so interesting how you guys really started your journey, you know, and you kind of evolved it into a place where it's so focused on like more like educating, because I think right now, you know, chemists are finally like coming out, you know, in terms of like we're understanding that there's some great chemists now, you know, in the world that are formulating these products and you guys are giving us these amazing, like, you know, these things that we use on the daily basis.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: But before, I mean, I think like 10, 15 years ago, even nobody even knew like where products come from, you know, like nobody talks about it.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, whenever I see any uh any chemistry being celebrated, I'm like, yes, thank God I'm on the bottle.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's just put their face on the bottle because people need to know.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's it's kind of like interesting how companies have been taking credit for so long, you know what I mean, for like the scientific innovation, but then you never you never got to see like who was the brain, you know, that went behind this and like combining this together with this and and whatnot.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very, very interesting to me and very cool.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love what you said.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry, Acta, sorry to go.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead, no, go ahead.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say I love the analogy because Victoria and I often joke that what chemists are like what company hides in the basement.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's running on wheels, but no one knows.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's just telling us to get back down there and but we're also looking at the sun.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is though.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is like that, and it's like it reminds me of like there's like a joke about like in the IT industry, like coders or like, you know, people who deal with servers, like they're stuck in the basement.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like it's true.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like we hide away the the the talent behind the glitz and glamour a lot, you know, in every industry.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And especially in beauty, like for me as a consumer, like I won't lie, as a consumer, it was always just like, why?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm more interested in the people who made the product, you know what I mean?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, personally speaking.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was it always like baffled me why we don't do that more.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, many years ago, now we do, but like it was just always confusing for me as a consumer as well.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I I feel like scientists in general just get like kind of screwed, you know, in the industry.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm gonna be honest, you know.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to ask you guys because as a lot of the education that I've that's really caught my eye that you guys do is around ingredients, and like I really want to discuss them with you in terms of like alternative ingredients.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a lot of buzz right now with you know, people come out with these like marketing terms.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you guys have seen it where it's like somebody will say, This is the new Botox, and it's like, what?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it's like stuff like that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like when you had mentioned marketing, you know, originally, like how you guys were sick of seeing all the marketing and stuff.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I am still feeling like that because every day it's like, well, this is the brand new version of you know, retinol, or this is the retinol without using retinol, you know, and it's just amazing because even though we've come so far in terms of putting scientists at the forefront, we're still so far behind.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: If that makes sense.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, because of that, because of the ingredient aspect.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to like kind of get started there in terms of education, is if you could talk to us about some of the ingredients.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know that retinol, I just brought that up, is a great example.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: If we could talk about like tretinoin and retinol and retinol and all that, the differences between them.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and it's a great point.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And something that Victoria and I are often frustrated by is like now that there's an interest in science, we also see a lot of, you know, faux science that in the pseudo-side.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that in its way is like even harder to combat than, you know, the stuff that's just baked in mysticism that's not even playing the same field, which is fine, they have their own marking lane, but faux science for us can be very frustrating.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the retinal realm, because it's so popular, is still very guilty of that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess to backtrack a little bit to to go through very quickly what retinol, retinoids, and all that stuff mean.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Retinoids just is a generic term, refers to the whole umbrella of related compounds.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Tretinoin is kind of like the granddaddy of how everything started.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's the you can only get it via prescription.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then then, and then there is retinol, which is a cosmetic ingredient that you can get.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And where that's different, it kind of have to, we have to get a little bit nerdy and talk about the retinoic acid receptor on skin.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: So the tretinoin will interact directly with this receptor and then kick off all the benefits like anti-aging, hyperfigmentation, acne that you associate with retinoids.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Retinol itself has to convert two steps into retinol, then retin, and then retinoin or retinoic acid to interact with the receptor.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why it's not a prescription.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's considered a weaker form of retinoid.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you kind of know this based on percentages.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: When you get a prescription, retinoid prescription, tretinoin, you're talking about like 0.05%, whereas retinol and gorchia, much higher percentages, like 0.5 to 1%.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's like a really quick run-through of this is doing me.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's legit.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: It actually, you know, I'm glad you talked about the the steps, like the conversions and stuff, because that's something I feel like it needs to be clarified too.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like because people think that they're the same thing and they're not.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it really has to do with like potency.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where, like, you know, I'm glad you brought up receptors as well, because unfortunately, when we look at it as consumers, we think these things are just working magically, but it's like there's such a thing as like, you know, binding to a receptor, or you know, things become saturated over time, you know what I mean?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't have too much of a concentration of certain things, and and all of that really ties in.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like retinol is a really great example of how all that works, you know.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: When you were mentioning concentrations, my brain immediately went there because when I first started SA, one of the first conversations I ever had was with a dermatologist.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the question I asked her was, Where's the dosing?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where is any of this dosed?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, she part and I were speaking about this as well.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember just feeling like people like these numbers and these concentrations, they mean something to us, but people don't understand.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like the reason you might see something in a larger percentage, and I don't know if you guys agree or not, but like if you see in a larger percentage, most likely because it's not the immediately like, you know, gonna interact with the receptor form of that molecule, you know, it's it is because of what you said.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: It goes through conversions, it goes through other steps before it gets to that point.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's a really important concept, I feel like.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think, you know, that kind of to go off of what you were saying, does that like that's also why, you know, you're mentioning like retinal replacements, tretinoin replacements.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Then this is where it's almost like the second degree or evolution of marketing claims where it starts adding a lot more confusion.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, when people hear that retinol is the weaker form, immediately people think like, oh my gosh, I've been using retinol all this time.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been using the best one.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like they equate weaker to worse, but that's not actually what the how we should be thinking about these things, you know.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think marketing makes you always feel like this is a competition to always get more, to always get better.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Social media feeds into that as well.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think actually this category is a really good representation of why you don't always have to shoot for the tretinoin.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've they've actually done studies because there are questions on whether or not is retinol truly helpful compared to a tritinoin.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: That like I think and on social media it's been trending that tritinoin is the only ingredient that works for skin, you know, like it's really the only thing that does anything, which is so bonkers because there's so many studies that have been done.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: But for some reason, this has caught wind because it's kind of scary to hear.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, there have been clinicals done.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: One that we like always like to share is bless their hearts for the labs that do these kinds of comparison studies.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: But one who actually did like a one-to-one study between retinol and tretinoin, and they even did an ex vivo study, like you said, wanting to look at the mechanism.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are they interacting with the receptors?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do they actually, you know, are they flagged for the same mechanisms?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are they performing in the same way?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And through these uh studies, even show that yes, you know, retinol is able to deliver these but benefits, maybe not on the same magnitude as tretinoin, but that doesn't mean you're not hitting these same benefits, hitting the same targets within skin.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like that's something that's very, I don't know, I feel like there's always this feeling of FOMO in skincare, you know, and how do we how do we prevent people from falling prey to that and being like, you don't always have to have a trenoine to get these benefits.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: You don't always have to like shoot for the highest and most to like make sure your skin's on point, you know, there's room for these things where like I think Gloria talks about a lot, she shares about our experience on how she can only tolerate so much retinol.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, why why should she be like pushing to be using tretinoin?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's just not how it's just not necessary, actually.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't make sense, no, and and I want to actually get your thoughts on it, Gloria, because I can't use tritinoin, guys.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't even use it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I literally have tried multiple, multiple times, and my skin will not like it'll you know deal with it for a few days, but then after a while, like I break out so badly, and I like just from my experiences, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I've like I've studied physiology, so I'm on the other side of the spectrum than both of you, where you guys are on the chemistry side, I'm on the biology and physiology side, and I look at my skin from that perspective, and I'm like, this is making my whole body go, no, no, like my entire skin is saying, I don't like this, you know, this is too much for me, and that makes me automatically as a consumer go, Well, I'm not that interested in these products with this ingredient in it, you know.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But Vitria, you made such a good point with we have this FOMO mentality with you know, skincare for some reason, where we're like, no, we need all the ingredients, we need all of them, you know.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you know Susie B down the road is making sure she's using retinol every night and you know, hyaluronic and all the things, I need all of them as well.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not the case, you know.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: We always talk about Laura and I have a lot of existential questions and discussions about skincare.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the feelings and sentiments we have is for some reason, users, I don't know if it's because of marketing, probably is in social media, where like we as users have forgotten that we are the experts of our skin and not anybody else.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And like it's really hard to remember that when you hear about how like the next beautiful actress has like amazing skin and this is her 10-step routine, and you suddenly feel like I didn't know what I was doing.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you do that?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, at the end of the day, we Laura and I really are we just have this like bleeding heart for for users, and we are ourselves our users, isn't in that like we know our skin and we should trust our judgment in what we need for our skin and not feel like we have to fall prey to this FOMO or keep forcing like tritanoin down our skin's throat, you know.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So my skin is saying no, you know.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like that I think that's the thing that we try to always remind people of is like you know best, you know.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that's such a such an excellent point.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I also like I just feel like people they underestimate themselves.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love what you said, you know, that you are the expert for your skin.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that needs to be put on our t-shirt because like literally, because people will, you know, we go to like as consumers, I think we're kind of hardwired to go to somebody else for opinions about everything.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to your health, like even if it wasn't the skin, you know, like I can tell you, like, you know, people will sit there and ask for opinions on if they're supposed to like go see a doctor for their, you know, what they think might be a heart problem.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, why are you asking?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just go do what you think.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like actually, I have patients that will say stuff like that.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, I asked my husband's opinion.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you felt bad, you should have just you know immediately gone in.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we are kind of programmed as a society to like look for that validation from others.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, when it comes to skin, like I treat it like anything else in healthcare, you know what I mean?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't look at the skin as like it's a beauty thing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's an actual organ and we have to treat it like that, you know?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to ask you guys, there's another ingredient.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that I had seen a post about this on your feed, and I and I really want to learn from you guys about this, and it's still marin versus the hydroquinone topic.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is really, really important because I'm a really firm advocate for and anyone could come after me if they want, but I don't care.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I strongly believe that germ like the drugs that are available in dermatology are outdated.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I genuinely believe that because I've looked at the data, I've read the papers.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying they're not efficacious, obviously they have been used for many, many years, you know what I mean, in a clinical setting.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm saying is like I don't believe it that they are the most optimal options, you know what I mean, if you were to ask me, because they do a lot of damage.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them are very high, like outdated ingredients.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like hydroquinone comes from a tree bark, you know what I mean?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: It dates back like centuries.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's we I'm sure we have better options at this point.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I would love to learn from you guys.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the you know, like similarities or or any kind of comparison you can do between solimarin and hydroquinone?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think hydrochronous it's so funny you said that I feel like that's a different cannibal in terms of like this time.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: We're just dropping bombs, like the first yeah.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's so funny you said that because it is still the gold standard in here, the hyperpigmentation, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: But like you said, I think there is it's a whole different topic in terms of the speed at which we validate new ingredients in skincare.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the flip side of that is sometimes it's like this marketing machine has no chill, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: It will do the first step, identify something super interesting, but maybe hit a minor roadblock block, like maybe marketing didn't take off the way they expect it to, or funding dries up, or something else that sounds a little sexier comes along, and then and then that's it.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes the idea is that you know, interesting ingredients, you get that initial sneak peek into what it could be, but it's just it doesn't get rounded out with follow-up clinicals.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times Victoria and I, when we're sharing ingredients, or when people ask us about the new, new, the exciting new ingredients, and then we just have to like throw our hands up and be like, I don't know, man, this is still in the in vitro stage, but it's already too the next miracle.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: But that whole brand is to say silomarin is a little unique in that aspect because as like interesting plant ingredient that has its origins in nutraceuticals as a oral supplement.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: It actually has a lot more topical data compared to a lot of other, I guess, sexy new plant antioxidant type ingredients.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and like you mentioned, the comparison, the comparative study with hydrocrinoline is probably the most notable one that we reference to pretty regularly.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's really exciting because hyperpigmentation is super difficult to address cosmetically.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of studies out there in Ectom, I'm sure you've seen them.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: They will have one maybe semi-interesting, promising paper, and you'll realize that in this realm, they hate benching it against anything established because of the risk is so high that it's gonna be a little whatever.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it's pretty cool that Silmarin has been looked at as a direct comparison against Heider Cruno, believe it's pointless.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Was benched against the standard 4% hydroquinol.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And in that study, it was found to perform on par.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: And with lead and it's much better tolerated than the hydrocrinol because, like you mentioned, it's kind of this dating ingredient that does come with potentially irritating harsh side effects.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: We should mention that that's one of the studies that they've done.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, they didn't dive all that much deeper in terms of keep exploring salinary in the hyperpigmentation realm.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: They did the study on my own.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like they get one study.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: They get one study, they're like, we found the cure.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: We found the cure.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say, like, because of this study, we still think it's it warrants, it has a special place in our hearts.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: One of the star ingredients we put in our Mr.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Reliable Moisturizer.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you what, we feel like as we're formulating it, we kind of realize why they did the one study and they're like, cool, we're done.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's so hard to formulate.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's super unstable.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something that challenges with ingredients, too, where you have one or two exciting early studies, and then you pass it off to chemists, and the chemists say, Hey, listen, I got bad news for this.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna work.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: We have early iterations of Mr.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Reliable that definitely turn into a poo-like consistency.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: No one would put that on their face.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, that that's the thing about I love Mr.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Reliable.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great product.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it really shows for both of your intelligence when you craft it because it's a really, really great product.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that it we're touching on such important points here though, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because as scientists, we can sit here and have this conversation where we're realizing like one study doesn't equate to like you know what I mean, like the the efficacy of anything in life.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like people in science get it, but like when we get when you throw like any study into the hands of any marketing team, it's like it goes from like the science realm of like understanding that okay, yeah, this is a step forward, you know, cool, we're here.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is it, guys.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is the, you know, what so I mean, I feel like there's a huge level of like, you know, like a difference there in understanding, you know, like I feel like knowledge is what's lacking there, you know, in the in the transition.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I I do really like your product though.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: You guys really made a cool product here with Mr.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Reliable.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: For everyone listening, it's um, it's a gel cream and it's really, really nice.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it'd be great for people with oily skin, especially.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's it's very lightweight.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and that's that's that's kind of one that's one of the more important things that we stuck by when we formulate it, is that it needs to be layer-friendly and can be used across multiple skin types.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm so glad you mentioned that because this is the main reason why, even though this reliable has that silent content and we have two percent ice cinnamonite, but we don't position it as a hyperpigmentation cream, yeah.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas some other brand might take that profile and go ahead and say, Oh, this is great for but lasma.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't do that's the scientist in you, you know, that doesn't let you do that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just I love that though, and I don't think you need to because I think, you know, when I don't know, I say this all the time on my show, and I don't even know if anyone's listening to me when I rant, but like I say it all the time, and I really mean it when you guys are picking the products that you buy and the brands that you support.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know what anyone does that's listening out there or what your protocol is and what your process is, but I look for the people behind the brand, like flat out.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just look for their credentials, I look for who they are, where they've worked, what they've done, and that's what really kind of leads me to like that purchasing decision.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like with a lot of things, like that's if you we did that, you wouldn't really have to rely on marketing claims because at the end of the day, like I know you both have like, you know, strong chemistry backgrounds.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know what you're doing, you know, you understand the field in a scientific sense.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So like I'm going to trust the products that come from you.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what's building the trust rather than somebody having like, you know, bright pink packaging and like millions of dollars spent in the marketing budget.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's not what for me as a consumer attracts me to a brand.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like a lot of times like it's really about that homework.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually glad that you mentioned that you guys haven't positioned this as like a hyperpigmentation cream because I think that puts things in baskets.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you guys agree or not, but like I feel like it puts it in like a basket where that's all people use it for, you know.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's, I mean, very rarely do I see any product that I'm like, oh, this is the only thing I used it for.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I use if I use a moisturizer, it's usually for multiple things like hydration.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I want the brightening effects.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want a bunch of stuff.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, that's what I want in my product.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that you didn't like, you know, categorize your your offerings that way.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a good thing.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually so glad you brought that up.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you have no idea how much that warms our heart because like one of the things we were trying to do with chemist confessions is like really celebrate like the formulating prowess, you know.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I think what we wanted to do was like, okay, if we are the formulators and we have this control, how do we push the boundaries of these formulas we create to really like almost change our perception of how we can use skincare?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or if not anything, maybe not change, but almost level it up, make it evolve, you know, and kind of what you're saying is how do we not put it in buckets anymore, but instead make people see these as tools, you know, that hey, in these scenarios that my skin is like this, can they use these products multiple ways?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, Mr.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Reliable as a moisturizer is relatively a little bit more of a classical form.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: But like, for example, I think with when we made our retinol product, we wanted to make sure it could be face and eye.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we get rid of the eye cream?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make it do more?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: But can it even deliver for face and eye?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that was like a completely different challenge.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, we really pride ourselves in trying to make sure that skincare really can do more.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in some ways, when we tell people these stories, because it's like obviously many layers, right?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: In explaining this, when we first launched this concept, it totally tanked.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like people are like, I had no idea how to approach this now.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, wait, so you can use it how many ways?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what is this and why do we do this?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but now, like now that we've, you know, this is like our fifth year going on our yeah, like I people who know us now are starting to feel, I guess, bolder, like more confident in like their skin situations and being able to hear that they use our products, you know, I use it for this, this, and this, or like I like to mix it this way.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like it just warms our heart to know that people can think outside of the buckets that you were mentioning.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it warms my heart that you made that move, that you guys had the balls to do it, you know what I mean?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be honest, like at the end of the day, as a consumer, I don't want to buy an eye cream.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Can I just say I'm just gonna put that out there being realistic?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't buy eye creams, guys.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do it.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know why?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because my eye also has skin around, you know, it's this whole idea.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if something works for skin, it's going to work in the eye area, it's going to work on my face, and it's going to work on my elbows if I want it to, you know, because skin is skin.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's like multiple layers, you know, in certain parts.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's thinner layers in the eye area.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's three layers, I believe.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: But that would just make it work better.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're applying a cream, whatever's left over, you know, tap it into the eye area.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: That works, you know what I mean?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not, I feel like it's just again, like we always come back to this answer of like it's marketing.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's no scientific reasoning for half the products that exist out here.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was like some ridiculous product I saw a while ago where it was like a prep to a serum.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like Yeah, yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you said that's another mini rant.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'll make it quick.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: But we get it started.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that we as chemists hate is like skincare category product names, right?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Essence, like ampul, like you said, uh for your serum.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can tell you in the labs, those words don't really mean all that much.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what they those formulas actually get labeled with.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's in aqua fix one of the primary samples.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's our oil-free.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: We call it a hydrating water gel because it's meant to be a layer-friendly hydrating piece.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we packed a lot of hydrators in also for people with very oily skin.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: You might not need a moisturizer in addition to it.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And for someone with dry skin, you can more or less think about it as a hydrating serum.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: But we really didn't want to call it a serum.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: But the number one question we found it is so is this a serum owner?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't know why people, but you know what?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's because we've fallen victim to the marketing, all of us.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, literally, like people are still trying to figure out this the right steps that you apply skincare in.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, this is a problem, you know?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's there should be two or three steps maximum in your routine.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm genuinely like, I so many times people reach out to us and they're like, Well, recommend a routine to us, you know, recommend a whole routine to me.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, here's your routine.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wash your face and put on a really good moisturizing, like, either it's a cream or something that's just gonna lock that moisture in and then put your sunscreen on.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's your routine right there for your day.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I very I've never found myself in a position where even with my friends, you know what I mean, like my mom or my friends, where I'm like, here's the 15, you know, step routine that's going to change your life.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not, you know?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I'm like, I feel like, you know, that's why I said, like, I'm glad that you guys took that step and you made a product, you know, where you are able to apply it and then just forget about it, you know, because skincare isn't supposed to be this like Rubik's Cube, you know, that we're solving every day.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's supposed to make your life better.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I'm like, yeah, I I just feel like when you stick to science and you stick to facts, it leads you down this road of like simplicity.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's what I just wish consumers would grasp more and we would look for more because everything in your body, and just for everyone listening out there, like everything, guys, that happens to your body, like mechanistically, is actually a very like the most simple route your body can take to get it done.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna go the long route to get something done, like for example, metabolizing, you know, like I don't know, or like dealing with glucose or something, right?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's it there's a a path that it takes, and that path is the path of least resistance.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when you look at what you're doing, like you have to try to mimic at least what your body is doing, and that's the most optimal way to do it, you know?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I think, like in terms of skincare, is that we're just overcomplicating it, like way too much, you know.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: We when we what I guess when we were thinking of or actually deep in trying to write our book, I think we were trying to figure out like what would be some of the takeaway messages, like if people just like could not even with the book.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things you touched on was I feel like is the overall theme is you know, consistency is key and the only key to getting results, and the only way to be consistent is if you have a routine that you can tolerate, you know, like sure, it's fun to try new things, it's fun to do devices, it's fun to do masks every now and then.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: But at the core of getting the topical results that you want, the only way is through it's you have to practice what kind of those clinicals are doing, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Super simplistic regimens that they have to do once a day, twice a day for how many weeks, right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we always try to emphasize that you know what's gonna get you the best success, the results that you want.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Try to keep it simple.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: A 15-step routine every day for two weeks for four weeks is really hard to do.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Though I've known people who can do that, then kudos to them, but yeah, definitely cannot.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's okay.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can't either.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can't either, and I don't know.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, the people that can, yeah, cool.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, if that's what it takes for you to feel relaxed and stuff, cool.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: But like, does your skin need it?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, like that's the answer.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's no buts, you know what I mean?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just no.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's the answer.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I agree with you.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that, you know, at the end of the day, like you have to find what works.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I always try to tell all of our listeners, like, when you look at Skin Care Anarchy, look at it as like a catalog of brands to shop from.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't look at it as like you need every product.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, people have asked and asked why I'm saying it.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, do I need everything that you know?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: You need to find the brand that resonates with you.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like we've just missed that step somehow, you know, as consumers.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we've just gone from like, what do we really want?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like we were talking about earlier, to what do we need and what what are we gonna miss out on?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what is a new thing coming out?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's just a toxic culture, you know what I mean, to be in.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, but I wanted to I wanted to ask you guys, and I hope you don't mind me asking, but you I'm sure you've heard about the whole benzyl peroxide thing, right?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you know I'm gonna bring this up because I it's gonna be what's that's good timing for your podcast episode and then news release to answer this question.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, no, I got two chemists here, so I gotta take it take this opportunity at hand.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: But no, my guys, honestly, correct me if I'm at all wrong, okay?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Please.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: But my initial post to this, because I posted something on my dermal unity account, and it was literally a structure of benzyl peroxide that clearly shows that it has two benzene rings at each one at each end, and it showed how it takes three benzene, bromobenzes to create benzyl peroxide.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And my my the only thing I posted was that, and that we should probably start looking at the chemical structures of things.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like instead of being shocked when a byproduct is the product that was used to make the molecule in the first place.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: So just I just want to get your thoughts around, you know, this whole controversy and you know, anything you guys that's come to mind for you in chemistry.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think there's a lot of layers here.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: And on one side, I think I really feel for the consumers because Victor Victoria does have a kid and I'm currently pregnant.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think like that when you're so busy with everything in your life and you just want to do right by your family, your son make sure that you know you're not accidentally buying something that's gonna kill you later.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just it just feels like it's a landmine everywhere you go.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: And every time something like this comes out, it's a lot of really scary press titles, right?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I totally understand from the consumer's perspective the immediate reactions that oh my god, I have been using BPO for decades.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I'm screwed, like what am I doing?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and to me, maybe I mean, and this definitely comes from being in the industry for long enough.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we are definitely more jaded, so we don't have that knee-jerk reaction.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: So like we have dug through the paper that was published regarding their findings.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of it, I don't want so for for this issue, I don't want to completely dismiss any concerns, but it is very overly sensationalized.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the key takeaways we have here, there's like a couple things.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, first off, 2 ppm is kind of the FDA recommended level because in terms of across all drugs, some drugs, like you said, because of the way they're produced, because of the synthesis, or because of some materials they use, there may be trace amounts of benzene.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: So 2pm is kind of the FDA level of, you know, why don't you keep it below that number?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: The limit.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the limit.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And in this, in this paper, a lot of the scariest numbers you heard.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you have headlines that's like 10,000 times above the FDA recommended limit.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: So in the study, they baked it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: They baked the product at 37C, 50 C, and 70 C.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: And conveniently in the paper, they didn't really show the results with a 37C.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: They instead published a result from a 50C, which in this industry, we do do elevated temperature testing as kind of a proxy to stability.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: But 50 degrees Celsius is like a the granddaddy of torture test is not as commonly used because it doesn't really emulate real life conditions that these products will really go through.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say that first of all, based on that test protocol, a lot of the concerns are a little overstated.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I will say, if you go through the full list of products and the raw data, the ones where us they buy off-shelf because they did do an initial reading, most products will come in well below the 2 ppm.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: And this is off the shelf.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: So as in they've already been through storage, they've already been through transportation.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this is more than likely what you're getting off the shelves.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Most of them do come in at lower than the 2 ppm.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: The couple products that come in at higher than the might need to look at their QAQC and not a good look.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll give them that.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: But the rest of it, I mean, there's a lot to go through.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: We can spend a long time on it.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's just they prone in on the scariest number that really doesn't reflect what's gonna happen to you unless you're routinely keeping your BPO in your car in Arizona.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, or living in a volcano somewhere.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I I did want to add like some context to like this, like kind of elaborating on all of this accelerated heated testing.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for us, when we this is standard QAQC is to kind of age it so that we can get instead of having to wait three years to five years to figure out what that shelf life will look like.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we do this kind of aged heated testing.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, for the 50, the 50 C temperature, I I don't even know how to explain.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that is something that sometimes what we when we are trying to need like a very quick test, we might, and I'll say might look at that.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: But even if we did have a learning, there's no conclusion.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: It really like there is no takeaway from us.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be over a span of a couple of days.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so their results testing all the way for two weeks is such a long period of time that that's why for Gloria and I, it's like, we don't know what to make of these results, you know, and why we really push to like, please, like just share the 37 degrees C data, because that, if anything, would tell us a lot more of like, is there really concern here?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully that at least puts everyone at ease in terms of using BPO products.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think when Gloria mentioned the products that initially had higher levels, those a lot of those were not even brands you can buy for the most part.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think could not be bought in stores.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that was one thing to keep in mind.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but overall, I I think Gloria and I were joking, we're like, I guess benzene is gonna be an annual scare now.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, benzene's been like that's why I was just like a little like uh taken back by the response, right?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like benzene is just it's been it is used in so many things, you know, to create so many molecules and so many chemicals have it there.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: That why are we just like all of a sudden shocked as a society?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: That here it is, like in trace levels.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, it just to me, I think it really comes down to just education.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love the points you guys made about the data again, you know.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a lot of times, and I'm noticing this across the board as well with studies, is that we're not seeing an accurate representation of anything anymore.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, before it used to be you go onto PubMed as a scientist, you look up about 15 to 20 papers before you make any kind of a claim or understanding that you understand something.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's coming down to these like, you know, private companies making these or conducting these studies and then publishing that data, and then some marketing team takes over and here we go, we've got headlines, you know, and it's just not I just feel like that culture shouldn't be rewarded.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like as consumers, like I completely agree with what Gloria, what you said originally was that it's scary, you know.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is a scary thing to hear if you're especially if you're you know, if you're pregnant or you have kids or you know, something that you're it's not just you, it's also like exposure to like your family.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very scary thing, but then make it this big sensationalized headline, headliner, you know, it's kind of yeah, it's a little much.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: The press is already having the bunch of titles and and posts come out, you know, everyone's responding.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: And sadly, with science, that is just not how any of that works.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it takes time to come through the data, to read through the papers, to do the research, you know, and I think that's where like beauty is kind of this like perfect storm of trying to digest the truth.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Glory and I were always so frustrated because we're like, God, we can see the train leaving the station on this whole VPO thing.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then Gloria and I are like, we gotta read all this stuff.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: We got the heck happened.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like consumers already don't have the time to go through.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And like something that I'll just bring up here is like when we're reading the paper when going through the raw data, one of the things that immediately caught my eyes is like every y axis in the graphics show is different.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like the the first set of charts that goes up to like 2000 ppm.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's one set of charts, they look like really tall graphs, but Then the max is like 1.8 ppm.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're just skimming, even if you're a more like, you know, a consumer that wants to spend more time on research and read the actual data, if you're just flipping with it, can still be misleading and just so frustrating that like you know it takes us that much more time to be like here are very reasonable, reasonable doubts about why, like, you know, you shouldn't have these feelings and it's okay.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: But then like Victoria said the train's already left the station.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, but that's a great point, Gloria, because it like the thing is in academia, you have to standardize your tables and stuff like that in academic papers that are reviewed by like professors and stuff, you know what I mean?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna immediately like send that paper back to you and be like, no.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like even a table like that, and that's another thing, like for listeners, like I feel like that's important for people to understand is that when you're looking at data, guys, like there are things in place in academia and peer review that are standardized.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those things is how you present that data.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: How is that data truly put into a paper so that it can be interpreted because of exactly what you said, where like flipping through, like even as scientists, when you're flipping through papers to reference for a review you're writing, you don't want, you know, some BS claims that are being, you know what I mean, like just put out there just on first look.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: You want to actually be able to understand what were the results.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so my point, I think, you know, very long-winded is I agree with everything you said.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, my biggest concern is that because skincare is headed down this road of where people are now like, well, where's the data?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the information and the numbers?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's so much room here for private companies to come in and kind of manipulate that and turn it into a thing where marketing gets involved.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: When in reality, science and any kind of paper should never be subjected to this, like, you know, this bias of like who's publishing and why are they publishing.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like that like motive should always be like recognized as well.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it should be like truly a peer-reviewed paper if you're ever gonna reference it for anything, whether it's your own information or giving it to somebody else.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there needs to be a standard maintained, is my point.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I don't know if I if I believe that that's there with private companies, you know, putting these weird papers out and stuff.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my opinion on that.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I think it's it's so tough because like I think after Gore and I became brand owners, we've we kind of feel like our viewpoint is sometimes so split.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like coming from being a user to a business owner to a chemist, and like from that more RD side, we kind of see the pains of all three, right?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing that Gloria and I also have a tough time with, kind of like what we were like every podcast episode on ours, a lot of times it's us just complaining that there's just no data, you know, and it's like where who's getting the money to do this research, you know?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so it's just this double-edged sword, like, you know, how are we gonna get enough research to get clarity on these formulas, these ingredients, this technology?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: But then also, like, how do you, you know, as well as the kind of economics of this research as well?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what do you do there?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's it's just a tough equation all around.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why Gore and I do our best to always try to be as transparent as possible.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when we talk about studies, we say, you know, where does the study come from tied to such and such company?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: But what can what learnings can we look at objectively?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's all this nuance in there that we try to share.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the goal is not really to, I think it's really hard.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we try to share the most objective point of view as possible so that at the end of the day, it's up to the user to decide, right?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: They can make the decision for themselves whether they think this is interesting or this is not for me, you know.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think it's tough because with social media, and I know I'm going on a rant, but it's like I feel we generally feel like social media doesn't really allow for free thinking.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh, you're right.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's your yeah.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is wrong, this is right, this is the best.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is the stamp that you stay with.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a carnivation, you know, like everything is a stamp, you know, but there's just no room for someone who's on those platforms to be like, I don't know if I agree with this point of view, you know, like it's really hard to have those deeper conversations.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think we just Clora and I just try to focus on those that are curious and you know, ultimately just are trying to get their question answered.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, I love your approach though, and like I said, like I've been a fan for a reason.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're putting really good information out there, and I just I really applaud what you guys are doing, but also I applaud your brand.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you guys have created amazing products, and I I really mean that.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I know we were laughing earlier about you know, people not understanding how something can work as like like you know, a moisturizer and an eye cream and all in one, but like often is freaking amazing, you know what I mean?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's also a primer, if anyone's wondering, like it's just a really great product, and same with like you know, Mr.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Reliable, like you guys have just made products that I think are so true to that mission.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: What you were talking about, Victoria, is that is this idea of knowledge first, you know?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I applaud you so much for that, you know.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing what you guys do and for educating because there's just so much out here now.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's even worse.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I started essay four years ago, and since four years ago, I've seen like I think two times the amount of brands pop up on my radar than there were two, you know, four years ago.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a lot out here.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like consumers are we're always looking for real knowledge, you know what I mean?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where is that?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I really truly in my heart believe that that's where all of this interest and more scientific stuff stems from, is a lot of consumers just frustrated that they don't know where to find it.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, yeah, that's where I'm like, that's where I think it really shines what you guys are doing and what I'm trying to do with essay, like anyone out there trying to educate, like you have to keep going because there is a really strong need for that now more than ever.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys are just always on point.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love everything you put out.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for everyone listening, if you haven't checked them out, if you haven't checked out Chemist Confections yet, you are I don't know what you're doing.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be checked them out.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um recommendation.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean you really deserve it.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to thank you so much.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I genuinely from my heart recommend the products, guys, for anyone listening, and you're in the market for like a new serum moisturizer hybrid, whatever you want to call it, a moisturizer.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a really great option.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really great option, I think, for literally anybody.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's amazing.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, just check out the brand, let us know what you think.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: But Gloria and Victoria, thank you so much.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's been such an honor to host both of you.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, thank you so much.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for shopping.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: We had a lot of fun.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for letting us rant.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for letting me rant.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've I ranted more than both of you combined.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: But no, it's been an honor.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you know, for anyone listening, if you have any questions, there's anything you're confused on, definitely send us an email.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have any questions for Victoria and Gloria, please let us know and we'll pass it along to them.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for tuning in and I'll be back next time.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 51:31
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• 51:36
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• 51:39
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• 51:42
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• 51:53
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• 52:01
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• 52:08
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• 52:10
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• 52:14
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• 52:19
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• 52:24
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• 52:31
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• 52:36
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