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Strictly Come Hamster - Season Fifteen (featuring Si Hart, Luke Molloy & Paul Quinn) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:00
  Castellan Is the chancellor still in his office?
• 0:02
  Yes, Sir. Good Castellan?
• 0:04
  As Castellan you are responsible for security on Gallifrey and
• 0:07
  General for my safety in particular.
• 0:08
  Are you not Castellan? Castellan.
• 0:10
  I don't think you're very good at it.
• 0:11
  That's just my opinion. I mean the president.
• 0:13
  Still every oligarchy gets the Castellan.
• 0:14
  He deserves a Castellan. Guess what?
• 0:16
  Never mind, just clear up the mess when you want a moment.
• 0:18
  Is it over? Yes, it's been a long hard Rd.
• 0:24
  but at last the future of Gallifrey has assured.
• 0:28
  Why? What are you looking?
• 0:33
  None. This episode of Strictly Come
• 1:21
  Hamster can only have been created out of pure energy while
• 1:24
  the skull was restructuring Fear's brain.
• 1:27
  Yes, Strictly has reached season 15 of Doctor Who, the season
• 1:32
  where the Doctor memorably fought the Rutins, the Sontarans
• 1:36
  and the Fardens. And I can't read my handwriting.
• 1:45
  It's probably devastatingly witty and we'll never know.
• 1:49
  Exactly. And behind the scenes, the show
• 1:53
  fought rampant inflation and greater scrutiny from above.
• 1:58
  But did this affect the quality of the season?
• 2:01
  There's only three people who can come together to tell me
• 2:06
  whether this is true or not. But first of all, I better say
• 2:10
  hello to Joe. Hello, Joe.
• 2:12
  Oh, hello there. Should I just say one thing very
• 2:15
  quickly first though, you can welcome to strictly come
• 2:19
  hamster, right? OK.
• 2:20
  Hello. There we go.
• 2:23
  This is what we're doing. People might think they're on
• 2:25
  track one or you know, again, I might think we're anywhere
• 2:27
  maximum power, you know, if it's you here.
• 2:30
  That's true. Well, I am bloody everywhere.
• 2:32
  It's true. I'm very well, thank you very
• 2:36
  much. I've spent the last two days
• 2:37
  watching episodes of Season 15 and I have certainly had a
• 2:42
  reaction to them, I'll say that. I think everyone has a reaction
• 2:46
  to them, especially our guests. Without a doubt.
• 2:53
  So tonight we are joined by the one and only Luke Malloy, who I
• 2:59
  believe has some reactions to this particular season.
• 3:02
  Good morning, ladies, and I'll do, I'll do it differently, Joe.
• 3:06
  I'll do it how you should have done it.
• 3:08
  Welcome back to. Thank you.
• 3:11
  Very much. Ladies, did you say?
• 3:14
  He did. Is that is that not the quote
• 3:17
  from image of the friend that when he walks out and sees the
• 3:19
  cows, that's what I was doing. I.
• 3:21
  Thought you were far too young to be quoted Doctor Who classic
• 3:24
  series you. Know oh God, put my foot in it
• 3:27
  already. No, I'm very happy to be here.
• 3:32
  Yeah, let's see where it goes. Can I ask you a question, Luke?
• 3:35
  Like, obviously, you know, you did season 26 before and it was
• 3:39
  basically a massive loving for you.
• 3:40
  You know, even the stuff you hated, you kind of loved.
• 3:43
  Yeah. I'm assuming we're going to have
• 3:45
  a similar sort of Luke Malloy on the call tonight.
• 3:48
  Oh hell no no, I'm rubbing my hands together for this one.
• 3:54
  Oh good. Interesting.
• 3:57
  And we're also joined by the marvellous Mr. Paul Quinn.
• 4:00
  Hello. Hello Sai, good to be here.
• 4:03
  I'm a I'm a, I'm a fill in, aren't I Joe?
• 4:05
  So I've got no notes. So I am absolutely winging it
• 4:09
  tonight apart from some boring stuff I've written down about
• 4:11
  tax policy. So.
• 4:14
  The last time you came on Strictly Come Hamster, you did
• 4:17
  Series 3, where you ended up milking the mask of the Dalek
• 4:22
  mutant from Daleks Take Manhattan.
• 4:25
  I'm assuming we're going to end up in a similar sort of place
• 4:27
  today. Well, as you know, there is
• 4:29
  something in this season that is simultaneously an erect and a
• 4:33
  flaccid penis. So yes, I.
• 4:37
  Look forward to exploring that. I didn't even do something and
• 4:40
  blow. I'm saving that for later.
• 4:42
  On well. We've got to keep our powder dry
• 4:46
  on that, but I guess we need to start with just a quick overview
• 4:52
  of where we all stand with Season 15.
• 4:56
  So, Luke. Come on.
• 4:59
  Give us, give us the skinny. What do you think of this
• 5:03
  season? Well, in all serious dislike.
• 5:06
  I think 2 are absolute, 2 are for the bin straight away here,
• 5:12
  and I think the other four I could be swayed either way on.
• 5:18
  I'm in bluntest terms. It's probably my least favorite
• 5:21
  season of Doctor Who and I'm generally very uncaring for it.
• 5:27
  I think what if I described as it's the walk through mud
• 5:30
  between the season 14 high bar of Tea Time Terror and season 16
• 5:35
  Joyful Voyage through Dimensions, which is as as good
• 5:41
  as I'm going to get to that it feels.
• 5:43
  It looks dark and grim and boring, but anytime they turn
• 5:47
  the lights on, it also looks horrible and girish and ugly.
• 5:51
  The Doctor and the company don't like each other.
• 5:52
  There's no stories that blow your socks off.
• 5:57
  But there is ambition. And you know, like with a lot of
• 6:03
  discussion that's going around in the air at the moment about
• 6:05
  the coin series, this doesn't feel like a season or series
• 6:09
  that's on its last legs or out of ideas what add some of the
• 6:14
  series that I prefer do. But I've got to give it that.
• 6:17
  It's always inventing and reinventing and trying to do
• 6:20
  really big ideas on a tiny TV show, so I'll give it credit for
• 6:23
  that. Great.
• 6:25
  Thank you. And Paul, how do you feel about
• 6:28
  Season 15? Well, I first knew season 15
• 6:33
  through the Target books, as I think most of us are vintage
• 6:37
  did. And then I think the first video
• 6:39
  would have been Image of the Fen Dahl and then UK Gold.
• 6:45
  So I was too mean to buy the videos after I taped them.
• 6:48
  And by that stage you've got received fan wisdom that tells
• 6:52
  you Underworld is shit, Image visible enemy is shit, An
• 6:58
  invasion of Time is 2/3 shit. But actually when you come to
• 7:01
  it, it's not shit. It's a it's a really interesting
• 7:05
  season and it's a season that I've become more fond of as time
• 7:09
  has gone on. I think it's probably my
• 7:11
  favorite of Williams seasons. It doesn't have the highest city
• 7:16
  of death. It maybe doesn't have the
• 7:20
  overall competence of of Keats of time, but I think probably is
• 7:28
  my favorite of Williams season, even though you can spit it
• 7:32
  evenly in the middle between where the show was and where the
• 7:35
  show is going. And I think that's it's really
• 7:37
  interesting as a traditional season.
• 7:39
  I'd also want to give a a big up to Anthony Reed who have been
• 7:41
  watching on some of the documentaries recently and I
• 7:43
  forgot just what a good thing Anthony Reed was and how we we
• 7:45
  overlook him and just how important he was.
• 7:48
  And obviously with the the Blu-ray, which I was able to get
• 7:50
  because you had that voucher, the beautiful Graham Williams
• 7:54
  documentary that's on that Blu-ray just makes us think
• 7:57
  again about just just how good he was and what he's up against
• 8:00
  that season. Because I can't think of another
• 8:01
  season where there's as many things out of the producers
• 8:04
  control as Williams, his face in here.
• 8:06
  And yet he produces some some really, really interesting
• 8:10
  stuff. There's problems, not going to
• 8:12
  deny that, but there's there's some there's some really good
• 8:15
  stuff here. So I'm looking forward to the
• 8:16
  conversation. Interesting.
• 8:18
  And Joe? Two days ago I would have been
• 8:23
  Luke, because this has long been my least favorite season of
• 8:29
  Doctor Who. Oh, certainly the classic Who.
• 8:31
  Sorry, not that very serious, please, but of the classic
• 8:34
  series and thinking of it as a bit drab and a bit serious and
• 8:39
  not really liking the chemistry between Louise and Tom this year
• 8:44
  and a season that sort of gets worse as it goes along.
• 8:49
  And then I spent two days watching episodes of this season
• 8:54
  and I thoroughly fucking enjoyed them in ways that I hadn't
• 8:58
  before, and mostly for the character acting that I was
• 9:03
  seeing going on in those stories.
• 9:04
  So a lot of my pluses are performances, but I just think
• 9:09
  there's some serious fucking acting going on in this season.
• 9:12
  So I'm now more erring on the side of pool than I am Luke.
• 9:16
  So I've gone from free, free to 4, potentially 5 in.
• 9:22
  We'll see. We'll see where we go.
• 9:23
  So I I've gone in the right direction.
• 9:27
  Interesting. And for me, this is the start of
• 9:31
  the golden age of Doctor Who. The Williams years are the
• 9:34
  pinnacle of Doctor Who for me. And so it's very hard to be
• 9:38
  objective. But like you've all said, I have
• 9:43
  really struggled with this season a lot in the past.
• 9:47
  And that's not the fault. Well, it is my fault.
• 9:53
  It's but it's, there's something about the inertia of watching
• 9:59
  this season from start to finish that really drags you down.
• 10:04
  But when the Blu-ray came out last year, watching the whole
• 10:10
  season in a row gave me a brand new appreciation for it and I
• 10:14
  actually came to really love it. I don't know what I'd been
• 10:18
  watching before, but I hadn't been watching with my eyes open
• 10:20
  properly. So it's very much a transitional
• 10:24
  season. As you've said, we're going from
• 10:25
  Hinchcliffe horror to Williams High.
• 10:30
  Whatever it is, it's. Really difficult to destroy full
• 10:33
  voyage 3 dimensions. Yeah, that's a good way.
• 10:36
  I like that. But what I love about the
• 10:41
  Williams era and what we're starting to get here is the huge
• 10:47
  imagination and the wonderful storytelling and world building
• 10:52
  that this era does. And the start of it comes with
• 10:56
  Anthony Reed. And he's come in unexpectedly,
• 11:00
  called in back to the BBC to do this.
• 11:03
  And like Paul said, I think we've really undervalued his his
• 11:07
  vision of Doctor Who. He immediately comes in with the
• 11:09
  idea of using myths and legends, and we're going to see that
• 11:13
  quite a lot over the next couple of years.
• 11:14
  So yeah. They can conjure the world side,
• 11:18
  they can conjure them. I'm not sure they can execute
• 11:21
  them, but they can certainly conjure them absolutely.
• 11:24
  Not sure they're entertaining to be in either.
• 11:27
  Or next year, Perhaps next year, Luke.
• 11:31
  We're gonna start somewhere. So although going by what you
• 11:36
  were saying now I'm thinking like about the direction of
• 11:39
  these episodes, they are sort of all a bit of a slog to watch in
• 11:43
  sort of terms of direction, because I think horror and image
• 11:47
  are very well directed, but they're slow stories, so they're
• 11:50
  a bit of a slog anyway. And then the ones that are
• 11:52
  fast-paced stories, technically Invisible Enemy and Underworld,
• 11:57
  I mean, they're terribly directed.
• 11:58
  So nice. Well, we're we're in a situation
• 12:01
  where Doctor Who has lost its champion directors to Blake 7.
• 12:06
  So David Maloney has gone off to produce Blake 7 and he's pinched
• 12:10
  Michael E Bryant and he's he's decided he's going to have
• 12:14
  Pennant Roberts as well as Doctor Who, for shame.
• 12:18
  And he's taken Douglas Canfield as well.
• 12:20
  So, you know, lots of the talent that was making Doctor Who over
• 12:24
  the last three or four years have all moved on with Roger
• 12:26
  Murray Leach as a as a set, as the sort of main set designer
• 12:31
  for Doctor Who as well. So a lot of the talent has gone
• 12:35
  and we've got Williams coming in, who hasn't worked for the
• 12:38
  BBC in these kind of shows before.
• 12:41
  So we've got a real kind of new broom coming in.
• 12:46
  And he's trying desperately to find new people to come in and
• 12:48
  do this to the point where he's begging people to come and
• 12:52
  direct to the show. And we're we're because someone
• 12:56
  like Norman Stewart, who has proof that he can direct the
• 13:01
  special effects really well, they're just going to give him
• 13:04
  Underworld to do because no other bugger wants to do it.
• 13:07
  And so you know. It's this this.
• 13:11
  Void of talent that he's trying to build, and he finds some
• 13:14
  really good people along the way, but it takes a little
• 13:17
  while. Do you know the underworld
• 13:19
  conversation we have later is going to be the highlight of
• 13:22
  this conversation, I'm sure. It's telling that the best
• 13:26
  director in this season is Patti Russell.
• 13:28
  Yeah. And that she's, she, I mean,
• 13:29
  she's come up with Cartier. So she's worked with the most
• 13:33
  obvious author working at the BBC in the 1950s.
• 13:36
  I mean, Norman Stewart. His other thing is that he can
• 13:38
  get access to get hit their mark.
• 13:40
  That's the other thing that he applied for, which is what you
• 13:42
  need for Underworld. And then of course he gets the
• 13:45
  other nightmare, which is power of crawl.
• 13:46
  And then he doesn't direct again.
• 13:47
  He goes off, he goes back to his old job because he's Graham
• 13:50
  McDonald's mate. Anyway, that's how he gets the
• 13:51
  directing gig. That that lack of directing
• 13:54
  talent is, is the real problem here.
• 13:56
  I think Joe, you're right. And, and I mean Michael Hales
• 13:58
  will come through eventually and that's be you.
• 14:00
  They'll be the go to person. But Pennant Roberts, you know
• 14:03
  he's confident on a good day. He's a safe pair of hands.
• 14:06
  Yeah, that's about all you'd say.
• 14:07
  It is baffling after he delivered the Sun Makers and
• 14:10
  someone went Pirate Planet. That's a great fit for Pennant
• 14:13
  Roberts. Yeah, he does it really well.
• 14:16
  Well, he does it adequately. He's the great champion, along
• 14:20
  with Reed of Douglas Adams. They're determined to get that
• 14:24
  made and they they take, they make the case to McDonald's.
• 14:27
  So Roberts might be not the best director in the world, but he
• 14:30
  can see talent. And he can.
• 14:32
  Something that's worth developing there.
• 14:33
  So I think, again, being weirdly kind here, he's a ship director,
• 14:37
  but he can see better talent than himself.
• 14:40
  And you know what, the very last point I'll make before we go
• 14:42
  into batch one, yes, that's right.
• 14:43
  We haven't even hit Batch 1 yet is I'd say all the directors
• 14:47
  this year can cast really well because they all pulled together
• 14:50
  great guest casts. Yes, and Doctor Who still has
• 14:53
  that cachet at this time. It's riding high and people want
• 14:57
  to be in this show, even in Underworld.
• 15:02
  We have a whole lot of comments from all you lovely people out
• 15:06
  there who as always, have come up Trump's and I think it is
• 15:10
  over to our guests to read the first batch of comments about
• 15:14
  the season as a whole. Okay, Ian Winston says.
• 15:17
  The ultimate season of two halves and its outset some of
• 15:22
  the most quintessentially perfect Whoever, but by its
• 15:25
  clothes, almost the opposite. Even so, it's easily in my top
• 15:29
  five classic seasons. I even love the space prawn.
• 15:33
  That is the most. Like you, Ian.
• 15:35
  That's the most succinct Ian Winston has ever been in his
• 15:37
  entire life. It's incredible, isn't it?
• 15:39
  Well done. There's someone here called Cy
• 15:43
  Heart. But I don't.
• 15:43
  Think we need to hear from him? I think he's the David Agnew a
• 15:48
  fandom, so I'm not sure he exists.
• 15:51
  James Bloke says William certainly inherited an
• 15:54
  unenviable situation. The overspend on Talons this is
• 15:58
  true. Rampant inflation and the exodus
• 16:00
  of talent to Blake 7. The results couldn't be more
• 16:03
  apparent than in the opening to the Sun Makers.
• 16:05
  The inventive, sumptuous visuals of the previous year have given
• 16:09
  way to a blank wall and some gaffer tape.
• 16:13
  More on that later, all right, because I think some of that is.
• 16:18
  Daniel Knight After three years of confident horror infused
• 16:22
  stories, the series starts to falter as the new production
• 16:25
  team seem uncertain what they can do financially and
• 16:29
  creatively. As a result, the tone is uneven,
• 16:32
  with some of the weakest stories of the era.
• 16:36
  Right to Gregory who? Who?
• 16:37
  He's champion of the damned, isn't he?
• 16:38
  So let's see what he says here. Straddles the space hammer
• 16:42
  horror of Hinchcliffe and the space opera of Williams by fully
• 16:46
  embracing both. It's also the season that's held
• 16:50
  to a higher standard than any other.
• 16:52
  Plenty of other producers had issues with budgeting, but this
• 16:55
  is always the whipping boy. But there's gold here with a
• 16:58
  couple of bangers and no real turkeys.
• 17:00
  You don't even need to be told. You don't even need to be told.
• 17:03
  You know he loves Underworld, right?
• 17:08
  CSO Fringe where the Rock set in.
• 17:11
  Oh come on. Fangrock is great, Fendal is
• 17:15
  good, the rest are shoddy. Hanford by poor production
• 17:19
  values. Canine is the season stand out.
• 17:22
  But what with Star Wars at the cinema, once those kind of
• 17:25
  effects came to TV, it was all over.
• 17:30
  I'm not sure that's true. I'm not sure at all that's true.
• 17:34
  I think fans like to think that's true.
• 17:38
  The the viewing figures for Invasion of Time were extremely
• 17:41
  healthy post Star Wars. So were the viewing figures for
• 17:45
  Underworld. So.
• 17:47
  Also don't forget the roll out of Star Wars means that not as
• 17:51
  many people saw it immediately as we always assume saw it
• 17:53
  immediately because it's only in them first two London cinemas
• 17:55
  for two weeks, then it's rolled out slowly across the country.
• 17:59
  So that's, that's reading back onto it, I think.
• 18:05
  What was the AI of Underworld? I think it was 98%, you know,
• 18:12
  highest has ever been. We only had three TV's channels
• 18:15
  back then and you know one. Of them.
• 18:21
  Richard, you best brace yourself here Joe.
• 18:25
  My love of all the Doctor has waned recently of all the new
• 18:28
  Who shite. I bought the Blu-ray box set of
• 18:33
  this season and loved every minute.
• 18:36
  And loved is in capital letters, so that's serious love.
• 18:39
  Are we sure that Richard isn't John Bensalio?
• 18:42
  Maybe he'll be a long way. This classic who?
• 18:46
  We've got the absolute opposite opinion.
• 18:48
  I think maybe Steve Wolfall, an underrated seasoned shackled by
• 18:54
  major changes in the production team.
• 18:57
  Robert Holmes. His influence shores up the
• 18:58
  majority with both Fangrock and Fendall showing their
• 19:01
  Hinchcliffe era roots. Sadly, it falls apart for the
• 19:05
  last two stories. Paul shakes his head.
• 19:11
  I'm shaking my head. I am shaking my head at the name
• 19:14
  of the next contributor. All right.
• 19:17
  Robert Holmes commissioned Invisible Enemy and that was the
• 19:21
  first story made for this season, so.
• 19:24
  Invisible Enemy and We'll Get There follows all the tropes
• 19:27
  from his previous seasons. I can absolutely see how that's
• 19:29
  Holmes. Matt Smith, take your time off
• 19:32
  from House and drag right about Invisible enemy.
• 19:38
  Of course you know it's essentially the cousin of Arc in
• 19:41
  space. Matt Smith I'm surprised how
• 19:46
  well it holds up. What House of Dragons?
• 19:49
  All the stories of good elements.
• 19:52
  The most tightly plotted is Fang Rock.
• 19:54
  Underworld is the only proper miss.
• 19:56
  Just a bit boring. You know, I would be hard on him
• 20:00
  for having the name Matt Smith, but please everybody go and
• 20:02
  check him out on Twitter that Matt Smith is hot as hell.
• 20:06
  Sorry, back to you. Look, I'm Googling.
• 20:08
  Now. Paul Dunn Tom is somewhere
• 20:13
  between taking it seriously and his season 17 excesses.
• 20:18
  You can tell where the change of script editor takes place.
• 20:21
  A halfway House of a season. Matt Lee Newby.
• 20:24
  Overall I like it. It isn't as polished as its
• 20:27
  predecessors and doesn't look as tired as its successor, but
• 20:31
  features more variety as a gentle and much needed switch to
• 20:35
  more like Hearted adventures. And finally in batch 1, Herald
• 20:40
  of Creation gets a lot of bad press for the cheapness, but
• 20:44
  it's full on adventure sci-fi with only one story set on
• 20:47
  modern day earth. If nothing else, it had
• 20:50
  ambition, even if the budget didn't stretch to it.
• 20:53
  Do you know, I really love that about the Williams era, The fact
• 20:56
  that they ditched modern day Earth so much and went off into
• 20:59
  space a bit more. Yeah, me too.
• 21:01
  But that's what I mean. You've just got to give it
• 21:04
  credit for trying. Just needed a little bit more
• 21:08
  money, just a bit. Well, that was out of their
• 21:12
  control, but there we go anyway, right down to the fun.
• 21:17
  So we have 6 stories, six exciting adventures in time and
• 21:24
  space, four of us. So let's start with our guests
• 21:28
  and we'll go to Luke first. Oh no.
• 21:34
  Are you good at champion or bin straight off?
• 21:37
  No beating around the Bush. Let's get Fang Rock in the bin.
• 22:00
  I need to go get my heart medicine.
• 22:02
  OK, I'm back. OK, reason 1 the worst looking
• 22:08
  monster in Doctor Who, probably everyone has to go at the Space
• 22:11
  prawn. This is a literal green BLOB.
• 22:16
  Have have they even tried to do anything?
• 22:19
  And this this thing's meant to kill Sontarans.
• 22:21
  Sontarans which are taken over Gallifrey by the end of the
• 22:24
  season. Am I buying that?
• 22:26
  No. Is it interested?
• 22:28
  No. Is it scary?
• 22:29
  No. This is meant to be the big
• 22:31
  horror scary one of the season. I don't get it.
• 22:35
  It's just a green BLOB and there's no amount of CGI that
• 22:38
  can improve it. Bless the hearts for trying on
• 22:40
  the Blu-ray but that all they did was add a few tentacles and
• 22:45
  stuff to a green BLOB. Super lame and in no conceivable
• 22:50
  universe of these beating Sontarans.
• 22:53
  You know, on any level, the only way that that routine could be
• 22:56
  more terrifying if it was in the guise of Carolyn Ford in
• 23:00
  Shakedown Return of the Sontarans.
• 23:02
  Fortunately, we're spared that here.
• 23:06
  So I've always thought it's got a terrible monster for for
• 23:09
  what's meant to be scared. Like people say how, you know,
• 23:12
  scary gothic Robert Holmes and Hinchcliffe, but all those had
• 23:16
  scary monsters not not a green BLOB.
• 23:19
  Anyway, that's point 1.2 is they're terrible uninspired
• 23:24
  cliffhangers. So you episode 1 is a ship
• 23:28
  slowly crumbling on the rocks. Although it's hard to know
• 23:32
  what's going on or why we should care, and it's clearly a model.
• 23:38
  I'm not going to get into the cheapness really, so take that
• 23:41
  one. Back I mean you say the
• 23:42
  spaceships, an invisible enemy, are clearly.
• 23:44
  Yeah, I'll take that one back. I'm not going to.
• 23:46
  I'm not going to judge it for looking like models.
• 23:50
  Episode 2 is Reuben screaming from the boiler room.
• 23:54
  Oh, no, not scream from a side character that we don't care
• 23:57
  about. OK, that's.
• 23:59
  Absolutely a horror trope though.
• 24:01
  A scream in the dark. I might care if it was Lee
• 24:05
  there, but not that's a random lighthouse man.
• 24:08
  Had Ruben not won you over then? Well, no.
• 24:15
  And then Part 3 and people quote, this is like a really
• 24:18
  good moment, but turns out I've locked it in with us.
• 24:22
  Well, duh, we already know that. We've seen you do it.
• 24:25
  And Tom Baker sounds so bored saying it.
• 24:31
  I don't I don't understand it. So both these points and I could
• 24:35
  pick many things, but both of them sort of bow roll into my
• 24:38
  third one, which is it's so popular and it annoys me so much
• 24:44
  you. Contrary bastard.
• 24:46
  No, right. So this this is probably the
• 24:49
  story I've given a go more than any other to try And like, you
• 24:54
  know, you do that it cut it comes up in top 10s.
• 24:57
  People talk about it as a masterpiece.
• 24:58
  People say, you know, put it on when it's winter and you're and
• 25:02
  you're on your own or like a Sunday night or something.
• 25:06
  And the amount of times I've done that and I'm just left like
• 25:11
  I feel like fandoms play one big practical joke of it.
• 25:14
  I feel like I'm in the Truman Show but but the horror Fag
• 25:18
  rock. You know what, we had this story
• 25:21
  made in the 70s and then have been developing that fan opinion
• 25:24
  ever since. Just purple of practical joke.
• 25:27
  I don't get it, because all the all the criticisms that fans hit
• 25:31
  every other episode with, they're all here in this in this
• 25:35
  very boring episode, in this very straightforward story with
• 25:39
  a bad monster and bad cliffhangers and bad pacing.
• 25:43
  And to what, the main actor that looks and sounds bored
• 25:46
  throughout Louise Jameson's given it a go.
• 25:49
  Like yeah, a good setting, but a bit of fog is not enough to make
• 25:55
  this a classic for me. So you're keeping it then so.
• 26:00
  Ben, Ben, Ben. Ben.
• 26:03
  I wonder if the listeners will agree with you.
• 26:06
  I'm sure they. Will it's not.
• 26:08
  If I get one, if I just get one, I'm not even saying it's
• 26:13
  contrary, though I have so many times tried to see it.
• 26:19
  Because you do that with big stories that a lot of fans like
• 26:22
  but you don't vibe with, you do try and put them on a fair bit
• 26:25
  to to get there. I've never even come close.
• 26:29
  I kind of get what you're saying because this is never one I go
• 26:32
  to. I never go oh I really want to
• 26:34
  watch Horror of Fang Rock. I watch it and I think it's
• 26:37
  really well done, but it's never one that I'm desperate to
• 26:40
  rewatch. Though it hasn't really got its
• 26:44
  claws into me either. Interesting.
• 26:46
  They're tentacles, Joe. They're tentacles.
• 26:48
  He's got no. Story.
• 26:49
  I should have known that, right? All right, Joe, shall we go over
• 26:54
  to our listener comments? Would you like me to start?
• 26:58
  Yeah, why not? OK, esteemed podcaster Toby
• 27:01
  Haddock is in complete disagreement with Luke and says
• 27:05
  bang rock for the win. Or I will track you all down to
• 27:08
  your lighthouse and pick you off 1 by 1 whilst falling out with
• 27:12
  the director. He's going to be so angry when
• 27:15
  Underworld wins this. My first comment is from Paul
• 27:19
  Quinn, so I think we'll skip that one.
• 27:21
  Let's go to Lat Matley newbie. Obviously a classic with the
• 27:26
  perfect setting for a base under siege.
• 27:28
  Massacre Adelaide is a brilliant contrast to Leela, and I love
• 27:32
  that she insisted Louise properly smack her in the face
• 27:34
  to shut her up when it's revealed Palmadale is dead.
• 27:37
  I. Love that.
• 27:38
  Obviously a classic. There's nothing obviously a
• 27:41
  classic about it. It's just it's.
• 27:43
  Just dark and has a good setting.
• 27:46
  Well, the extremely intelligent James Lark says memorably
• 27:49
  atmospheric, but I wonder if there's a tendency to overrate
• 27:53
  it. Great characters and set pieces
• 27:56
  for sure, but I wouldn't overstate the tightness of the
• 27:58
  plotting when the narrative is really just an excuse to kill
• 28:01
  off the guest cast 1 by 1. And is it not just a tight plot
• 28:05
  because it's simple? Like it is just the the
• 28:10
  characters are in it for money and themselves and the the thing
• 28:14
  just kills them off 1 by 1. I mean, it's every bit too from
• 28:17
  Claw, isn't it? Like the the very thing that
• 28:19
  they're trapped inside is the thing that ultimately saves the
• 28:23
  day. Yeah, but that's not a green
• 28:25
  BLOB, and there's actually like quite a bit of running in it,
• 28:26
  and it's got that music that's like Kung.
• 28:31
  Fu monks as well. Yeah.
• 28:36
  Fraser Gregory says the fog swirls, Tom broods and Terence
• 28:40
  goes all Agatha Christie. Paddick and Russell gives us
• 28:43
  something special. But the story belongs to Leela,
• 28:46
  possibly Louise Jameson's finest hour.
• 28:49
  An absolute masterpiece. Jim Allenby says a
• 28:53
  claustrophobic tale with an eerie atmosphere.
• 28:56
  And Tom is that his grumpiest or, as Luke said, possibly
• 28:59
  bored. The remote location is inspired
• 29:02
  and everybody ends up dead. Inspired.
• 29:06
  OK, the routine is just weird enough to be entirely laughable.
• 29:09
  Not to be entirely laughable. Oh, not to be entirely
• 29:13
  laughable, sorry. Sorry, Jim, I.
• 29:16
  Have to completely hijacked your comment there.
• 29:19
  Dave of Andrazani says as a four year old, it absolutely
• 29:22
  terrified me. The eerie atmosphere is so well
• 29:25
  realized. The claustrophobia, the
• 29:27
  foreboding sound of the foghorn. The cast were brilliant, not
• 29:31
  1,000,000 miles away from the adult horror films of the time.
• 29:35
  Paul Cresser Amazing that when given the brief to tone down
• 29:39
  violence and horror, William gives us a story that wouldn't
• 29:42
  look out of place in season 14. Tom and Louise are at their best
• 29:45
  and the claustrophobic setting works perfectly.
• 29:48
  Top tier Who? David Gillespie Pratt says.
• 29:51
  My favorite Tom Baker. Full of atmosphere with a great
• 29:54
  script and some great dialogue. The star is Louise Jameson, who
• 29:58
  gives her best performance. James Hadwin Bennett, lover of
• 30:02
  River Song, says sublime. I'm not sure the routine has
• 30:07
  read And Then There Were None as it does seem to follow one
• 30:09
  aspect of this book very closely.
• 30:12
  Tom chills. The set is superb and it's the
• 30:14
  best of the season. Gareth Boli says best here.
• 30:18
  Atmosphere drips throughout plus some great jumpers on display.
• 30:23
  Tension never gets better than this during Tom's run.
• 30:26
  Spider Man 72 it will always be my favorite.
• 30:29
  Read the target book 1st and the TV show didn't disappoint.
• 30:32
  Pure class for a story that was written last minute.
• 30:35
  There must be someone who doesn't like this apart from
• 30:37
  Luke. So I just, when I did this on
• 30:41
  Lost on Gallifrey years and years ago, me and Chris did
• 30:45
  horror fan rock versus the Time Warrior and he was not
• 30:48
  influenced by fun opinion and I'd never seen it before and he
• 30:52
  just didn't know what this was all about.
• 30:54
  Like he, he thought it was just as bad as I did.
• 30:57
  And it's the only person I've ever met in my life, though it's
• 31:00
  the same as me. I do wonder though, just with
• 31:03
  you mentioning the target novel, whether possibly there's
• 31:06
  something in that. If you read the target novel and
• 31:08
  usually if you read them first and then go to the TV story,
• 31:11
  it's usually disappointing. But this you go from the target
• 31:14
  novel and you go to the story, and it's actually got atmosphere
• 31:17
  and tension. Well, we'll talk about
• 31:20
  Underworld later, all right? Well, look who it is.
• 31:23
  It's big. Big.
• 31:25
  Orange, Michael. Michael, a locked room mystery
• 31:30
  that rivals Agatha Christie. Proof that Terrance Sticks can
• 31:34
  deliver under pressure. Interesting that the season
• 31:37
  bookends with the two sides of the Sontaran, Root and Conflict.
• 31:41
  A nice cast that is all Root and fodder.
• 31:44
  Keep it. How is it?
• 31:46
  I've just figured that out. Now he's.
• 31:50
  You catch on fast, Joe. Yeah, it's taken many, many
• 31:53
  years. OK, Daniel Knight says best of
• 31:56
  the season, even if it's a bit slow.
• 31:58
  The Ealing scenes? Are there Ealing scenes in this?
• 32:01
  There are. I thought it would have done in
• 32:03
  Birmingham. I.
• 32:05
  Thought it was done in Birmingham.
• 32:07
  It wasn't done in Birmingham but also they did the filming at
• 32:09
  Ealing because that's where they do all their filming.
• 32:11
  Oh OK, and the performances are good.
• 32:13
  Don't mind the root and being a giant sprout covered in
• 32:16
  Swarthega. It looks very effective as
• 32:19
  something other than a man in a rubber suit.
• 32:21
  Paul Dunn says a Hinchcliff hangover and all the better for
• 32:25
  it. The tense behind the scenes
• 32:27
  atmosphere really helps the performances and whilst not
• 32:30
  popular, Paddy Russell can really direct a faultless
• 32:34
  classic, oozing chills and atmosphere.
• 32:37
  Even I'm starting to think there's too much praise here.
• 32:40
  PlayStation gamer 1871 of my winter comforts so very snugly.
• 32:45
  Leela is quite possibly the best companion ever, so very well
• 32:48
  portrayed and written. John Arnold says, practically
• 32:52
  indistinguishable from the Hinchcliffe era.
• 32:54
  As you might expect from Terence, it's a perfect template
• 32:57
  for a four part story. Every cliffhanger twists the
• 33:00
  story and Paddy Russell makes a virtue of the Lighthouse set.
• 33:05
  Anything to say, Luke? This is I've never known a
• 33:10
  strictly comment section to not have at least one very opinion
• 33:15
  in it. This can't be the first time.
• 33:17
  Dan Hollingsworth said uses the studio very well to create the
• 33:21
  required atmosphere and includes one of the best slaps in Doctor
• 33:24
  Who. True, Paul Smy says arguably the
• 33:29
  finest season opener of all time.
• 33:33
  Spooky, mysterious, terrifying and that is just Tom Baker.
• 33:38
  A wonderful tale. The whole cast are fantastic.
• 33:42
  Our classic. And we've got one last comment
• 33:45
  here. Let's see.
• 33:46
  Come on, think it's. Finally, and it comes from
• 33:50
  Doctor Sinister himself, that is his name.
• 33:54
  Sorry Luke, who's his atmosphere and plot wise is as tight as a
• 33:58
  drum. It's a full house for horror
• 34:01
  Bang Rock. That's insane.
• 34:04
  This is what I mean. It's one big practical joke.
• 34:09
  And the joke's on you. Let's go over to our other
• 34:12
  guest, Paul to see whether he agrees with Luke and will there
• 34:16
  be another negative comment. No, I'm afraid this is easily
• 34:23
  top three Tom Baker for me. No, along with Robins of Death
• 34:28
  and Pyramids of Mars. I, I adore this.
• 34:32
  The end of episodes are shit. Luke is absolutely right on
• 34:35
  that. They're, they're, they're,
• 34:36
  they're terrible. The, the ship in particular is
• 34:38
  terrible. The third one, I think the whole
• 34:41
  point is that we do know the doctor's cocked up and it's his
• 34:44
  realization that he's he's locked everyone in here and thus
• 34:47
  he's turned it into a kill zone. I think the fact that it's a
• 34:52
  last minute job is important to bear in mind because of course
• 34:55
  this is an early indication that Williams isn't control or isn't
• 34:59
  in control of the program. Because McDonald of course, has
• 35:02
  intervened to say you can't make your vampire story lest it look
• 35:05
  like you're taking the piss out of our big Dracula adaptation or
• 35:10
  that you're better than our Dracula adaptation because it's
• 35:12
  not a great Dracula adaptation. So Terrence Dix does what he
• 35:17
  does well and he produces 4 tightly written, tightly
• 35:22
  produced episodes which go to somewhere else that he's
• 35:27
  comfortable with, which of course is Victorian Edwardian
• 35:30
  fiction because of course he's working on the classic serial
• 35:32
  with Barry Letts at this point. He's studied English at
• 35:36
  Cambridge under Levis, so of course he's all over Victorian
• 35:39
  literature. And of course, if you looked at
• 35:41
  the Frank Skinner documentary about Terence Dix on the Series
• 35:45
  9 Blu-ray, the library that he's got, what you can catch there in
• 35:49
  the background is all that kind of Empire fiction that Alwin
• 35:52
  Turner writes about. So when Reuben is talking about
• 35:55
  the Ruskies and the French, it's absolutely embedding this text
• 35:59
  in that sub genre of invasion narratives.
• 36:03
  And so the question as to who the villain is, who the monster
• 36:08
  is, and of course, it has to be able to transform into other
• 36:12
  people for the whodunnit element, but also to get around
• 36:16
  the fact that the monster does look really, really shit.
• 36:18
  You can't get around that. It is a carrier bag covered in
• 36:22
  vomit with some green wool on the back of it.
• 36:25
  But the voice is what's carrying it.
• 36:27
  And the absolute conviction between Baker, but crucially,
• 36:31
  Jameson. This is Jameson's season.
• 36:34
  She's brilliant in everything that she does.
• 36:36
  She elevates some of the these scenes that may be slipping into
• 36:40
  the mundane. Her gloating over the death of
• 36:42
  the written is joyous. It kind of skirts over the fact
• 36:47
  that this is, as everyone knows, the bloodiest Doctor Who story
• 36:51
  of all time. As Woods and Miles say, you
• 36:55
  expect Skinsail to be there at the end to see the tires
• 36:58
  dematerialize and make some comment on it, but he's dead
• 37:01
  because, as someone has said on this call already, he's greedy
• 37:05
  and they they succumb to their baser instincts.
• 37:09
  Vince does. Palmerstyle certainly does.
• 37:12
  Adelaide is caught into this horrible relationship.
• 37:14
  What separates it from the Hinchcliffe years?
• 37:18
  People have been linked into the Hinchcliffe years rightly, but
• 37:20
  also, I think wrongly, because there's something different
• 37:22
  going on here and Adelaide's character tells you you're not
• 37:24
  in the Hinchcliffe world anymore.
• 37:26
  Think about because she's a woman and she's.
• 37:29
  Good. I think her treatment by the men
• 37:32
  in it is repugnant, but she's there to stand as to remind us
• 37:38
  of how different Leela is. Even though for much to the
• 37:41
  season, particularly when they put Leela into the the yellow
• 37:44
  chamois leather, they're really accentuating the the sexuality
• 37:48
  of the character. Whereas here, of course, she's
• 37:50
  wearing men's clothing and you're not being distracted by
• 37:53
  her as the bit of fluff for the dats which.
• 37:55
  Look, the look on Adelaide's face when Leela, when she first
• 37:59
  sees her, she looks her up and down.
• 38:01
  It just says everything. There's a there's a tremendous
• 38:03
  thing about class in this as well, and it's interesting.
• 38:06
  The doctor backs Harker. And of course, that's an
• 38:09
  indication, though, of the vampire links of this story,
• 38:12
  along with some other elements of it, that it's still got the
• 38:15
  ghost of what it what it would have been and what it turns into
• 38:18
  when it's stated decay. And it I think it's absolutely
• 38:20
  crucial. I think it it's James H said
• 38:23
  about and then there were none, didn't he?
• 38:25
  And of course, the the coastal setting reminds us of the 1945
• 38:28
  version of that book and the book itself, not the terrible
• 38:32
  1976 version where it's in a in a desert Oasis in in Iran, but
• 38:37
  they I think Tat woods and and Lawrence Miles made the point
• 38:40
  about how the characters are killed off sequentially.
• 38:43
  It's telling you something about power structures in this in this
• 38:46
  narrative. It removes the person who knows
• 38:49
  how to work the, the generator, Ben, isn't it?
• 38:52
  And then you, you, you're looking for various authority
• 38:55
  figures. The doctor slots himself in
• 38:56
  there quite nicely. I'm not sure Baker is bored for
• 38:59
  all of it. I think some of he, he, he,
• 39:01
  there's still some conviction in some of his performance.
• 39:04
  Certainly. I think he's he's, he's not
• 39:06
  happy that Patti Russell has put him in his place.
• 39:08
  But you do know? More.
• 39:10
  He is angry. What I don't like in this
• 39:12
  season, and it's only this time watching it, I've noticed this,
• 39:15
  the number of times the doctor tells leaders to shut up or he
• 39:18
  tells K9 to tell her to shut up. And I I really don't like it.
• 39:21
  Partly this is the dad in me kicking in that I don't like
• 39:24
  shut up being thrown around like that.
• 39:26
  But you do wonder about the doctors saying it, partly
• 39:28
  because it it must be scripted, but it's also, it's the
• 39:31
  animosity between the two of them that that's there.
• 39:33
  That has an impact on the structure of at least two of the
• 39:35
  stories here. But I think in terms of a work
• 39:38
  of desperation, in terms of its setting, in terms of those kind
• 39:42
  of small character pieces, which although there's a degree of
• 39:45
  cliche in them, Dick's knows how these cliches work in this type
• 39:49
  of narrative. I think it appeals to an
• 39:51
  audience who are used to the classic serial, who are used to
• 39:54
  the good old days. Which of course is is how the
• 39:56
  Music Hall scenes work in Tanzuen Chaiang.
• 40:01
  I think it's just something that that kicks them off nicely into
• 40:04
  this season with enough. Carry over from 14.
• 40:08
  But really there are enough subtle changes here to indicate
• 40:11
  something is different happening here.
• 40:13
  I, I, I think keep it all day long.
• 40:15
  Also, it ends with a poem and you, you can't, you can't really
• 40:17
  beat that. And a poem that tells you what's
• 40:19
  happened, which is an interesting textual technique
• 40:22
  that we don't always see. So yeah, I keep absolutely.
• 40:26
  Joe, what about you? My into Doctor Who is characters
• 40:32
  and I think this is not only Dicks, but it's Holmes as well,
• 40:35
  right? Holmes script editing Dicks
• 40:37
  instead of Dick's script editing homes, and whenever they're
• 40:40
  together they work magic. And really, that's all I had to
• 40:43
  say about Horror Fan was just that the characters in this are
• 40:46
  so vivid and I think so well cast.
• 40:49
  When they started getting bumped off, I was really invested.
• 40:52
  So yes, it's an absolute keep for me.
• 40:55
  Wow, that was very, I'd like that.
• 40:59
  And even though it doesn't matter, I'm absolutely keeping
• 41:03
  this through. And I just think it's a
• 41:07
  brilliant setting for a Doctor Who story, a lighthouse.
• 41:11
  It's wonderful. You've got all those stairs up
• 41:14
  and down all the time and people are constantly going up and down
• 41:18
  to escape or do something. And it gives it a real sense of
• 41:23
  movement. But they're trapped inside for
• 41:25
  almost all of the time. And I think that's that's really
• 41:28
  good. And then it gives you the odd
• 41:29
  shape of things as well. And the lamp room set is really
• 41:33
  nicely done. OK, some of the CSO is a bit
• 41:36
  dodgy, but that's a product of its time and there's worse to
• 41:40
  come. Not really.
• 41:43
  Relative to what's coming, it's fun.
• 41:45
  You know, and I just think it's it's a tale that is told
• 41:51
  economically. And we often have said, me and
• 41:57
  Joe, when we've talked about Doctor Who and Doctor Who
• 41:59
  fiction, that being simple isn't necessarily a bad thing.
• 42:04
  This is a really concise and well told story with characters
• 42:08
  that are sketched in effortlessly.
• 42:11
  And all of the all of the actors are perfectly close for the
• 42:14
  character they're playing. I cannot see anyone else playing
• 42:17
  any of those characters. And Vince, even though the actor
• 42:21
  is too old really to play the character that he's playing, he
• 42:25
  absolutely convinces as the the innocent young keeper.
• 42:32
  Strong enough to stand up to Tom Baker, though, wasn't he?
• 42:35
  Absolutely. And he did and and you know,
• 42:40
  sometimes it's been said before, but sometimes stamping on Tom
• 42:44
  and telling him that he's got to do this and he's got to do
• 42:46
  something outside of his comfort zone and he's got to go to
• 42:50
  Birmingham to make this is a real, real thing.
• 42:54
  It really helps. And the fact that the team at
• 42:58
  Birmingham went out of their way to make this Doctor Who story
• 43:03
  when they weren't expecting to make something as technically
• 43:06
  different difficult as Doctor Who.
• 43:08
  And the the difference between that and the TV centre crew is,
• 43:12
  is really, really telling. And you could tell that from the
• 43:15
  behind the scenes sort of making off on the on the new Blu-ray
• 43:19
  that the people who were involved in it really loved
• 43:22
  working on this this particular episode.
• 43:25
  I don't think Patti Russell quite enjoyed it as much as
• 43:27
  anyone else. I.
• 43:28
  Don't think Louise Jameson did much either.
• 43:30
  No, but this is the story where she sits down and she tells Tom,
• 43:34
  no, I'm not having this treatment and she does it.
• 43:37
  Didn't she make him do a scene again and again until he did
• 43:40
  what he said he was going to do in rehearsal?
• 43:43
  Absolutely. And John Abbott had exactly the
• 43:45
  same experience. So Tom was misbehaving
• 43:48
  massively. Did you hear what his response
• 43:51
  was though, when she went out to him afterwards and went, thank
• 43:53
  you very much. I'm I'm glad we got there in the
• 43:55
  end and he just looked her up and down and went, that's all
• 43:57
  right love. And walked away.
• 44:00
  What a con, Jesus. Christ.
• 44:03
  So, you know, despite all of these things, this shouldn't
• 44:06
  work, but it absolutely does. And I think it's a really good
• 44:10
  opener to to the season. Sorry, Luke.
• 44:13
  Well, that I, I mean, I picked this because I thought it was
• 44:18
  going to be hard to sway anyone, so I was fully expecting this to
• 44:21
  go through. But Christ, I can't deal with
• 44:24
  this winning. I might have to jump out at the
• 44:26
  end of round one. Way to go yet.
• 44:30
  Joe as a weak link. If it means anything to you, I'm
• 44:33
  not for this one to win. Yeah, I'm eyeing you up as the
• 44:36
  weak link, Yeah. OK, so our first story Horror
• 44:42
  Fang Rock is through. So over to Paul and what story
• 44:47
  are you going to talk about? Oh, let's think.
• 44:51
  Go on, do it. Do it.
• 44:53
  Shall I? Do it.
• 44:54
  Come on. I want to talk about Underworld.
• 45:01
  Imagine there are rocks falling behind me.
• 45:04
  Oh, oh, it's. Looking very blue over there,
• 45:06
  Joe. Thank you.
• 45:09
  So I was on Jim Allenby's podcast in November, I think, or
• 45:14
  yeah, it was released in December.
• 45:16
  And obviously Jim talks how how did you get into Doctor Who?
• 45:19
  And when I went up to the Intermediate School in Year 5,
• 45:25
  we had a small class library that had some Doctor Who books
• 45:28
  in it. And I just got into Doctor Who
• 45:30
  earlier that year watching the Peter Cushing second Dalek film.
• 45:33
  And then my TV in was episode 3 of Time in the Irani.
• 45:39
  So my qualitative faculties are clearly shit because I stuck
• 45:44
  with it of I've been watched Time in the Irani episode 3 and
• 45:47
  we had in the library in the class Dark invention of Earth,
• 45:52
  play the Daleks, Monster repellor and Underworld.
• 45:55
  So Underworld was probably the first or second target book I
• 45:58
  read and I was transfixed by it because Dix does a really good
• 46:01
  job on that. Joe, you've spoke about this
• 46:03
  with David Gillespie Pratt, I think, and somewhere else.
• 46:05
  Dix doesn't just do his use thing of putting some prose
• 46:07
  around the speech. He actually uses it to do what
• 46:10
  Williams is trying to do, which is to use Underworld to expand
• 46:13
  our understanding of the Time Lords.
• 46:15
  Because if you split this season into two, Underworld and
• 46:21
  Invasion of Time are really pointing forward.
• 46:24
  Williams wants to go. He wants to introduce myth.
• 46:27
  He wants to give depth to the Time Lords.
• 46:30
  The Time Lords in Underworld are gods, and he's going to top that
• 46:32
  in the following season where there are gods above the Time
• 46:35
  Lords when he introduces the Guardians.
• 46:37
  And obviously he wanted to do heat of time this season, but
• 46:41
  for various reasons he couldn't do it.
• 46:43
  So it carries over with the the the hints of it are here
• 46:46
  already. And so Dicks expands upon what's
• 46:48
  already in the script, which is how did the Time Lords come to
• 46:51
  become non interventionists? So when I came to Underworld to
• 46:56
  see it on TV on UK Gold in the late 90s, boy, I fully expected
• 47:00
  it to be shit. Because fandom told me it was
• 47:03
  shit, even though my nostalgia and my residual memory of the
• 47:07
  book told me that you'd really enjoyed it, Paul, So why would
• 47:09
  you and I? It's not shit.
• 47:12
  It's not shit at all. It's really, really good.
• 47:15
  I'll go further. This came to me today, Joe, and
• 47:17
  I could see what Michael Miles is saying.
• 47:19
  Underworld is better than Star Wars.
• 47:37
  Quick old wow. Please explain yourself.
• 47:41
  I love Star Wars, I absolutely adore Star Wars was my in I saw
• 47:47
  the re release of Star Wars episode 4 when they put it back
• 47:51
  in the cinemas. GR proud for Empire Strikes
• 47:55
  Back. So I've been into Star Wars long
• 47:57
  and I'm into Doctor Who but I'll tell you Underworld is better
• 48:00
  than Star Wars Episode 4. Star Wars Episode 4 is a fairy
• 48:04
  tale OK you can track it against props, character functions and
• 48:10
  props analysis of character in fairy tale it tracks absolutely.
• 48:14
  Luke Skywalker, one he's a Dick in the first film 2 he's the ash
• 48:19
  laden and and and it's fairy tale for children.
• 48:23
  It's not the earlier version of the fairy tale before the grooms
• 48:26
  could get their grubby anti-Semitic mix on it.
• 48:28
  It's designed for children and it's ours is is the most
• 48:32
  successful children's film in the 1970s.
• 48:34
  It wrecks the new Hollywood along with all the massive
• 48:37
  amounts of cocaine that they've been taking.
• 48:39
  And it changes cinema because everyone then starts doing space
• 48:43
  opera. Hence.
• 48:44
  Disney doing the black Hole, which is a great film.
• 48:47
  The black hole, It's shit, but it's awesome.
• 48:50
  Like with the red paws on the red on the red robot.
• 48:55
  We probably get Star Trek back on onto the big screen partly
• 48:59
  because of Star Wars as well. But Underworld is better than
• 49:02
  Star Wars because Underworld is myth.
• 49:05
  It's a myth of the Time Lords. It's the Time Lord as God and it
• 49:09
  draws from and pick up your point from the introduction
• 49:11
  side, Anthony Ree's interest in mythology and using those
• 49:16
  narratives in Doctor Who finding, moving it away from the
• 49:19
  type of penny dreadfuls that Robert Holmes is using and those
• 49:22
  type of gothic texts, the type of text that Dicks uses for
• 49:28
  horrifying what we've just spoken about.
• 49:29
  It's proper grown up adult literature.
• 49:33
  When Star Wars goes Greek in Empire Strikes Back, it goes
• 49:37
  Oedipal and it goes fucking weird.
• 49:40
  It's Luke Skywalker getting off of his sister, and then you
• 49:42
  realize that the coded rapes scene in the first Star Wars is
• 49:46
  Luke's fucked up robot dad raping the sister he doesn't
• 49:49
  know. You don't get any of this
• 49:52
  normal. What we get in Underworld is a
• 49:54
  really well designed spaceship. I love model work.
• 49:58
  I can't stand CGI spaceships. So I love the rocket work in
• 50:03
  Invisible Enemy. I love the big spaceship here.
• 50:05
  Obviously they're aware of what's coming with Star Wars
• 50:09
  canines. We'll talk about is, is the
• 50:11
  great addition and he's reflective of what's coming
• 50:14
  later in the decade and so or later that year in terms of of
• 50:17
  children wanting robots and things.
• 50:19
  This is, you know, once you see big spaceships starting to
• 50:22
  appear in Doctor Who at this point, they're really reflective
• 50:24
  of what Star Wars is directing them towards.
• 50:27
  They're they're aware of what's coming because Star Wars
• 50:30
  premieres in May, doesn't it? In 77 in America, it premieres
• 50:33
  here December of of 77. So this season is bookended by
• 50:37
  that and and runs into that and the impact is starting to have.
• 50:40
  I couldn't give 2 fucks about the bad CCSICGI, whatever the
• 50:45
  fuck it is green screen. Who the hell comes to Doctor Who
• 50:47
  for the visuals anyway? If you're coming for the
• 50:49
  visuals, you've come to the wrong fucking show.
• 50:52
  It's not even a sci-fi show so why do you really care?
• 50:55
  It's it's, it's part of the CS Lewis tradition of adventures in
• 50:58
  the perilous realm, which is absolutely what you get here.
• 51:01
  Because they take those Greek myths and they plump them into
• 51:03
  this entirely unscientific new world.
• 51:07
  And actually, this podcast can't have any quibbles about bad size
• 51:11
  because you bloody made How a Fang Rock the Best Story season
• 51:14
  14. Who else is ever going to put
• 51:17
  Bob and Dave as the best writers in a season when you're up
• 51:20
  against? Are you talking about Hand of
• 51:21
  Fear? Hand of fear with its crack.
• 51:24
  So we can't talk about the bad point.
• 51:26
  We can talk. About it, but this podcast is
• 51:29
  very famous for bad opinions. I love the hand of fear.
• 51:32
  Love it. It's.
• 51:33
  Bad. Opinion The Underworld
• 51:35
  Underworld shouldn't exist. The money's gone and the easiest
• 51:40
  thing for Williams is to go. I can't do this.
• 51:42
  But as they rightly say on the making of documentary, that
• 51:45
  would wreck Williams career even more than Doctor Who.
• 51:47
  Clearly wrecks his career at the BBC Two years later, thanks in
• 51:50
  part to Tom Baker. What he does is he looks at this
• 51:53
  show and goes listen to people around him and we can give it a
• 51:56
  go because the technology's there.
• 51:58
  And if Doctor Who it is anything, it should be prepared
• 52:02
  to make use of the technology there if he's got any pretense
• 52:04
  to be looking into the future, into wonder.
• 52:07
  And so they give it a go. And you know what?
• 52:09
  It doesn't look nearly as bad as people think it is.
• 52:11
  And if you think back to watching it in 7778, your telly
• 52:14
  doesn't have the high definition.
• 52:16
  You might be watching black and white.
• 52:17
  If my parents have been watching Doctor Who, which they never
• 52:19
  did, they'd even watch on the black and white telly.
• 52:21
  And you don't notice it nearly as much if you turn the colour
• 52:23
  down. They are looking into the future
• 52:26
  because basically, I'm not saying Underworld revolutionized
• 52:31
  how television is made, but that is how television is made now.
• 52:35
  This is where they landed eventually.
• 52:37
  Absolutely. Actually you can say that Joe.
• 52:39
  You can say Underworld brings about modern TV.
• 52:43
  All modern. What an achievement.
• 52:46
  All modern sci-fi can be traced to Underworld and let me go on
• 52:50
  further. Much.
• 52:51
  More, much more as I like Babylon 5, it looks shit
• 52:54
  compared to Underworld. Otherwise.
• 52:58
  I'm convinced by those caves. And let me let me finish by
• 53:01
  saying it's about revolution, which is the first time we get
• 53:05
  it in this. It's the second time we get in
• 53:07
  this season. We're going to get it for a
• 53:08
  third time as well. It's done differently to in the
• 53:11
  Sun Makers, which I'll pick up on.
• 53:13
  And the other thing I want to say the everything that blows
• 53:15
  can be sucked. That joke is meaningless because
• 53:19
  I don't want to kink shame anyone, but if someone's blowing
• 53:21
  down to your Japs I and trying to get Greensleeves out of it,
• 53:24
  that's what really yo blowing. So all The Dirty minds that
• 53:29
  looks at it's quite literally Tom Baker blows all the bad shit
• 53:33
  back onto the bad guys and they start choking.
• 53:35
  I I love it to bits. It's uncomplicated love and Adam
• 53:38
  Lake. Whoa, he was good in the pub
• 53:40
  last night, wasn't it? But he's.
• 53:42
  Really good in the he's. Really good in this.
• 53:45
  The weak links in this in terms of performance are the guards,
• 53:48
  obviously the dildo shaped seer helmets that shit as well, but
• 53:51
  the mad computer as well. I really like that as well.
• 53:53
  It's better I think maybe even than Panama Selma in face of
• 53:56
  evil and the fact that it's gone mad and it thinks it's a God and
• 54:01
  it's about theology and theocracy.
• 54:04
  It works on so many levels. Keep it all day long.
• 54:07
  It's it's awesome. Now look, you've just given an
• 54:10
  extremely intellectual reading on Underworld, yes?
• 54:14
  Why did you ask 1 You knew that's what you're gonna get.
• 54:16
  But also by making a comparison to Star Wars.
• 54:19
  Yeah, and fair enough, there is no intellect in Star Wars at
• 54:22
  all. But I'm gonna perhaps suggest on
• 54:25
  an at entertainment level, there might be a bit more going on in
• 54:30
  Star Wars than there is in Underworld.
• 54:35
  You know, taken away from sort of the smarts of the scripts and
• 54:38
  what actually hits the screen in terms of entertainment.
• 54:42
  Are you suggesting that Alec Guinness shuffling around
• 54:45
  ineffectually before he's killed on the Death Star and then turns
• 54:49
  into a Force ghost is somehow more exciting than, say, Alan
• 54:53
  Lake going across the rickety bridge and holding a couple of
• 54:56
  pantic wavering to go? It's over.
• 54:59
  The quest is the quest. Are you suggesting I don't know
• 55:02
  what show you're watching, Joe? I don't know what's gone wrong
• 55:04
  with you there, mate. It's a small scale adventure.
• 55:08
  Epic adventure. Toll on a small scale is much
• 55:10
  better than than George Lucas revolutionizing cinema with
• 55:16
  what's essentially just fucking Flash Gordon.
• 55:20
  Really fun Flash Gordon. Big.
• 55:23
  Big light swords that they fight with and things you know, and
• 55:26
  trash compactors that try and crush people.
• 55:28
  That's the underworld you're describing.
• 55:30
  The Doctor goes into a compaction and he crushes.
• 55:33
  Really. Yeah.
• 55:34
  But the realization was so bad I didn't realize that's what it
• 55:36
  was. It's got sword.
• 55:39
  It's got sword, it's got robots, it's got a jive talking posh
• 55:44
  robot, it's got a female lead who actually does something and
• 55:48
  they're not afraid of a hits in a way they're.
• 55:50
  Are you talking about Tarla? I know I'm talking about Leela
• 55:53
  Tarla I. Was going to say Tarla literally
• 55:55
  vanishes in episode 1. That doesn't do anything.
• 55:58
  That's. Because that's the old woman
• 56:01
  you're talking about. They rejuvenate her and there's
• 56:04
  a discussion there about how horrible it would be to live
• 56:06
  forever. That's a great special effects
• 56:08
  shot. You know where she's put down on
• 56:09
  that. Anyway, sorry I've anyway I've
• 56:12
  been argumentative enough. Talking of argumentative, let's
• 56:17
  go to the comments. Oh boy, Pete Lambert says.
• 56:23
  For years I was told it was cruelly maligned for daring to
• 56:26
  innovate and push the boundaries of CSO technology.
• 56:29
  And then I saw it. Probably the most ponderously
• 56:32
  plotted tale populated by a pace of thin characters we ever got.
• 56:36
  Barely 2 episodes of Incident stretched over 90 minutes.
• 56:40
  I think he likes it, David Gillespie Pratt says.
• 56:44
  Yes. It's a horribly troubled
• 56:45
  production and the story is thin, but can we just take a
• 56:48
  moment to appreciate the effort that went on behind the scenes
• 56:51
  to try and make this work? I'm on my own, aren't I?
• 56:55
  Bless him, he did the all four episodes for the commentary.
• 56:58
  Listen. Jenkins shit but I have respect
• 57:02
  for it. A miracle it was able to get
• 57:05
  made and what we get is a blast. My God.
• 57:10
  Matt Lee Newby says a decent first episode and a good central
• 57:13
  concept. I can forgive the terrible CSO
• 57:16
  if the latter episodes weren't so bloody boring.
• 57:19
  On the plus side, there's some good model work and it's good to
• 57:22
  see some real diversity in the casting of the trops.
• 57:26
  Big Orange, Michael says. I listen to the Target audio
• 57:29
  book and there's a pretty good story in there.
• 57:31
  The tie into the time laws is an interesting hook, and the first
• 57:34
  episode is fairly solid. It's once the overuse of CSO
• 57:38
  begins that we lose the thread better than its reputation.
• 57:42
  Jason Thompson says its problem isn't the CSO capes, which
• 57:46
  mostly are executed very well, but it's just that it's
• 57:49
  unutterably dull after episode 1.
• 57:53
  The fact that the energy beams look like you could outrun them
• 57:56
  at a jog doesn't help the drama either.
• 57:59
  In an era of terrible energy beams, these are some of the
• 58:02
  better ones in this story, aren't they?
• 58:04
  James Hadwin Bennett Underwhelming.
• 58:06
  Oh well done James. But if you watch it as intended,
• 58:09
  it's far more doable and less painful.
• 58:11
  I can overlook this CSO and I also want to keep it to piss off
• 58:14
  RTDS faux continuity. Interesting Gallifrey mythology
• 58:18
  too. Ian Banks says weeks of the
• 58:21
  series, but one that was very important to me as a child.
• 58:24
  So you can all shut up and we don't like people shut up.
• 58:28
  Remember, good ideas and innovative production techniques
• 58:32
  clash with budgets, inflation and terrible actors to produce a
• 58:35
  disappointment. But what a wonderful episode 1.
• 58:39
  John Arnold says how to get through Underworld.
• 58:41
  Keep your eyes on the leads and marvel at their efforts trying
• 58:45
  to redeem a load of old to it. Some lovely second hand ideas
• 58:48
  make for an engaging Part 1, but it quickly descends to the
• 58:51
  generic. Razor, Gregory says.
• 58:56
  How? Much TV is made with CGI sets
• 58:59
  now. That aside, it's a decent story,
• 59:01
  better than it's reputation. Worth keeping for Alan Lake?
• 59:06
  And time for somebody that actually makes some sense.
• 59:08
  Paul Dunn. A good idea, a great cast and a
• 59:11
  good first episode. But the CSO is so distracting
• 59:14
  and the whole thing smacks of cheapness.
• 59:17
  Rennie says a fantastic episode 1 but Hanford by non existent
• 59:20
  visuals. I applaud them for trying
• 59:22
  though. And the Oracle is creepy as a
• 59:24
  mad computer. Get rid of them.
• 59:26
  Get rid of them. James Lark says the story is
• 59:30
  solid, with a Greek myth cleverly interpolated into
• 59:33
  Gallifrey and mythology. Episode 1 always surprises me
• 59:36
  with its lovely set design and model work, but it's slow and
• 59:39
  cheap looking, and surely even the most devoted young fans had
• 59:42
  lost patience by the time those twin Postman Pat dildo robots
• 59:47
  were revealed. Your nemesis Michael Storm says
• 59:51
  a promising Part 1 falsely lures you into thinking this will be
• 59:54
  the season highlights. This is all lost the moment we
• 59:57
  set foot on the planet in Part 2.
• 59:59
  The CSO isn't as bad as reputation, but it's also static
• 1:00:02
  with no sense of jeopardy. Some love for some love for the
• 1:00:06
  CSO here, Paul Cresser says. Every time I see the first
• 1:00:09
  episode I think this really isn't as bad as I remember.
• 1:00:13
  And then I see the rest. It's not the CSO, it's just
• 1:00:15
  incredibly dull. Herod of Creation says some
• 1:00:19
  interesting aspects of law, but looks cheap and can be
• 1:00:22
  confusing. Paul was my cheap, tacky and
• 1:00:25
  very underwhelming. Joe Llewellyn says has a bad
• 1:00:28
  Rep. It's deserved.
• 1:00:30
  And extremely succinctly, Anthony Carroll says turd of the
• 1:00:35
  season. Well.
• 1:00:40
  There we go. There's certainly some opinions
• 1:00:42
  there. So let's height filled as I was
• 1:00:45
  expecting. Though no, it's a bit more even
• 1:00:47
  handed than we expect. But Luke, what do you think?
• 1:00:51
  I mean, I really appreciate Paul giving it a big, smart, engaging
• 1:00:59
  reading and much more engaging like listen than watching
• 1:01:05
  Underworld. I would I would watch Paul do
• 1:01:09
  that four times than what this whole story.
• 1:01:13
  I mean, I think we're getting Stockholm syndrome for the sets
• 1:01:17
  here for the CSO. Everyone's sort of kidding
• 1:01:20
  themselves that this is all right when it's not really all
• 1:01:24
  right. Like, OK, credit there.
• 1:01:27
  That's where you know, we finally got 60 years later.
• 1:01:30
  But it is shit, right? We just need someone to say that
• 1:01:35
  this is shit do. You know what?
• 1:01:38
  The visuals are shit. It's like it's those Browns.
• 1:01:42
  The story is even more boring than the sort of visual palette
• 1:01:47
  on display. I'm so biased because I I sugar
• 1:01:53
  with myths and Greek legends and things like that anyway so
• 1:01:57
  anytime doctor goes here it's just not my bag.
• 1:02:01
  Again, Nyman not my thing, this not my thing that myths and
• 1:02:06
  legends box set Christ alive. Surely you find, surely you find
• 1:02:12
  Horns of Nine more entertaining than this.
• 1:02:15
  Yeah, yeah, I mean, this has got to be one of the only Doctor
• 1:02:19
  stories where like ever had all the free time in the world and
• 1:02:23
  and loads of Doctor people came around.
• 1:02:25
  It was like, let's watch Underworld, I'd say.
• 1:02:27
  Could we not watch something else?
• 1:02:30
  Something that isn't Doctor Who? I agree with what a lot of
• 1:02:35
  people said. Like episode 1 is actually quite
• 1:02:37
  good. It's got a terminus effect of
• 1:02:40
  like episode 1's good. And I think every time you watch
• 1:02:42
  it you sit down and you hope it's a classic and part 1's
• 1:02:45
  actually good and you go oh God if I if I misinterpreted this in
• 1:02:50
  the past and then the rest happens.
• 1:02:52
  Like everyone else said, I weirdly think that one of the
• 1:02:55
  only things I like about this is the C is it's that weird shot of
• 1:02:59
  like them with the three eyes but now everyone's called them a
• 1:03:03
  dildo. I don't know and I was thinking
• 1:03:05
  just during the comments. Then I was thinking what happens
• 1:03:08
  when a seer meets a ver void? Never mind, starts trial.
• 1:03:13
  Doctor Who? Porn.
• 1:03:14
  Probably far more entertainingly than the story then.
• 1:03:17
  You know, unbelievably for me, I've never saw them as phallic
• 1:03:20
  before, but now I think if I see a shaped dildo came out, it
• 1:03:24
  would be on my Christmas list. Those little bumps, Joe, for the
• 1:03:27
  eyes, that will do it. Oh.
• 1:03:29
  Yeah. The biggest crime really is that
• 1:03:31
  it's absolutely forgettable. Really.
• 1:03:35
  It's it's like I didn't watch this long ago and, you know,
• 1:03:40
  it's something to do with Time Lords.
• 1:03:41
  And Oh yeah, people say in the comments about this is an
• 1:03:44
  amazing addition to time. Love mythology.
• 1:03:46
  Is he? It doesn't seem to impact my
• 1:03:50
  thoughts on the Time Lords or. Anything.
• 1:03:52
  It just shows how back in the early days they messed around
• 1:03:55
  with other races and learned their lesson.
• 1:03:57
  That's where they're not into. And if we took this story out of
• 1:03:59
  existence, which in a lot of people's minds it's sort of is
• 1:04:02
  anyway, because they can't remember, think about it, does
• 1:04:05
  that impact the Time Lords or the plot at all?
• 1:04:09
  Not really, but just to. I hope this doesn't fail, but
• 1:04:14
  just to prove my forgetfulness of this story, I've got a quiz
• 1:04:17
  question. Oh, what are the names of the
• 1:04:20
  two Seers Lake? LAKA and the other one.
• 1:04:30
  Lake is definitely one of them. Yeah, Ank ANAH.
• 1:04:38
  Is that something from mythology?
• 1:04:40
  Probably I will say this though, I'm not a big fan of mythology
• 1:04:43
  enough, but I heard because they call it the P70 that's like
• 1:04:48
  stupid and lazy. I've heard people say oh that's
• 1:04:50
  just like stupid right? But in the episode before when
• 1:04:54
  Robert Holmes because of the P-45 corridor iPhones.
• 1:04:56
  Oh my God, he's a genius. That that's double standards.
• 1:05:02
  Yeah, I'm rambling a bit. I mean, the last thing I'll say
• 1:05:04
  is the quest is the quest has as much pizzazz as the star.
• 1:05:08
  Seeds will bloom and the fresh will rise.
• 1:05:12
  But I know Bob Baker. From Joyce in the world.
• 1:05:17
  No wonder I forgot. That I know Bob Baker and Dave
• 1:05:19
  Martin have these catch phrases, but I think the other two work
• 1:05:23
  because it's a villain doing villainy things.
• 1:05:27
  So El Jeb must live in contact has been made the quite good
• 1:05:30
  villain lines when there's a moment of threat, whereas the
• 1:05:33
  quest of the quest almost feels like it said when they don't
• 1:05:37
  know what else to say. And and it sort of sums up just
• 1:05:41
  how boring this is as a watch. I suppose the final battle
• 1:05:45
  between Star Wars and Underworld is what's got the better saying.
• 1:05:49
  The quest is the quest, or the Force be with you.
• 1:05:53
  Yeah, which one means more. And the quest is the quest is is
• 1:05:59
  as boring as this. Well, one's looking back and I
• 1:06:02
  was really looking forward. Another is just has got nowhere
• 1:06:06
  to go. It's over.
• 1:06:07
  It's just done. The quest is.
• 1:06:08
  The quest is just. My live was bare, wasn't it?
• 1:06:12
  Yeah, I like the Bristol boys and I think they get an unfair
• 1:06:15
  kick in for dreaming too big quite a lot of the time.
• 1:06:19
  But I do think this is the most lacklustre affair that they they
• 1:06:23
  serve or they officially on story wise.
• 1:06:26
  The quest is. The quest is there because it's
• 1:06:28
  to it's to under score the monotony of their lives because
• 1:06:33
  they can't die and there's. But it underscores the monotony
• 1:06:36
  of the story, yeah. It becomes a commentary on
• 1:06:40
  itself, but you find that there's another point of this
• 1:06:43
  season where there's there's a really obvious comment on on the
• 1:06:46
  lack of action, but at a script level, they're trying to say
• 1:06:51
  something. That's why Talia and everyone
• 1:06:53
  else said the crew's so small, because they've all let
• 1:06:55
  themselves die. There's a really bleak element.
• 1:06:58
  We can't afford any more actors as well.
• 1:07:00
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but within within the
• 1:07:01
  narrative that we're told she's let her go point beyond the
• 1:07:04
  point of rejuvenation. So they force her back to life.
• 1:07:07
  But because they're so focused on getting it onto the screen,
• 1:07:11
  you lose those elements of the of the plot.
• 1:07:14
  And so what's left is the quest is the quest, which then, as
• 1:07:17
  Luke says, becomes a comment on just how long this is.
• 1:07:20
  If you're not enjoying it, if you're enjoying my car, then you
• 1:07:22
  just go and going, Yeah, the quest is the quest.
• 1:07:24
  I use that though, even when she's regenerated, right.
• 1:07:27
  Obviously she's an old woman on the point of death, so she's not
• 1:07:29
  going to be too energetic then. But and they carry her off and
• 1:07:32
  rejuvenate her and then she just sort of walks in and goes, oh,
• 1:07:35
  hi everyone, I'm here. I'll sit down on the sofa and I
• 1:07:39
  know they're supposed to be really bored, but I just don't
• 1:07:41
  translate into something exciting to watch.
• 1:07:43
  If they're bored, why are we excited?
• 1:07:47
  Yeah, good question. And so, yeah, without, without a
• 1:07:50
  doubt, nothing could make me get this out of the bin.
• 1:07:53
  Sorry Paul, but it. Was very game though.
• 1:07:57
  You give it a good shot, like a great shot, but I think this is
• 1:08:01
  as unforgivingly boring as Doctor Who gets.
• 1:08:06
  OK. Well, go.
• 1:08:09
  You go. I love Doctor Who, I really love
• 1:08:13
  Doctor Who, but even I struggle with this story.
• 1:08:18
  Yes, and all the things everyone says.
• 1:08:22
  I absolutely bet OK I get to part 4 and it's like 3 episodes
• 1:08:28
  of Doctor Who have just slid out of my brain completely and
• 1:08:31
  sometimes episodes two and three have slid out of my brain while
• 1:08:35
  I'm watching them and I have no idea where we are in the story.
• 1:08:40
  It. It's a very odd thing that
• 1:08:42
  suddenly Bob Baker and Dave Martin are promoted to the star
• 1:08:46
  writers of Doctor Who. At this point, when there's a
• 1:08:49
  crisis, Anthony Reed immediately turns to them for a script.
• 1:08:54
  They've turned in one for this season.
• 1:08:56
  Next year they'll be back with the big season finale.
• 1:08:59
  They're trusted with these big stories because they've been
• 1:09:02
  around almost as long as anyone writing Doctor Who has.
• 1:09:06
  At this point. Robert Holmes is knackered.
• 1:09:09
  Terrence Dicks is busy script editing the classic serials.
• 1:09:14
  Chris Boucher isn't available because he's script editing
• 1:09:17
  Blake 7. Who are you going to turn to?
• 1:09:19
  Bob Baker and Dave Martin. They've always got great ideas.
• 1:09:22
  They've always got great things in them.
• 1:09:24
  And I think the fact that this is a last minute script really
• 1:09:27
  shows because they're writing a story where they've obviously
• 1:09:32
  been told there's a bit of a budget issue, so don't overdo it
• 1:09:35
  with the action. And they actually take this on
• 1:09:37
  board and they don't overdo it with the action.
• 1:09:40
  There's a railway carriage full of crap that they're going to
• 1:09:45
  throw into a hole. There's a brilliant reuse of the
• 1:09:49
  set, and it's a really great reuse of the spaceship set
• 1:09:53
  disguised as the Oracle set. And every time you go back to
• 1:09:57
  that physical set, there's a great big sigh of relief because
• 1:10:00
  you're actually somewhere that's real and tangible, I think.
• 1:10:05
  But that says it also. That says it all.
• 1:10:07
  The moment we're in a physical set.
• 1:10:09
  Hurrah I. Mean it's like the actors know
• 1:10:12
  what they're doing as well and they're giving better
• 1:10:14
  performances and more spirited performances in that.
• 1:10:18
  I mean, that's that bit with the gas, that Cliff angle, that
• 1:10:21
  whole sequence with the gas. No, it's the, it's the shot of
• 1:10:25
  the security camera that they reuse about five times of it
• 1:10:29
  just going across that wire. And, you know, there are things
• 1:10:34
  that are good in it. I think Christine Poland as the
• 1:10:37
  as the voice of the Oracle is amazing.
• 1:10:40
  I think she's really creepy and it's really well modulated.
• 1:10:44
  I think the moment that the seers pull off their heads and
• 1:10:47
  reveal that their robots is incredibly funny.
• 1:10:50
  And then they immediately put their hoods back down again.
• 1:10:53
  They had to see them in these helmets.
• 1:10:56
  So we did a far more interesting computer last year with best
• 1:10:59
  problems. That we're retreading.
• 1:11:02
  Back to the time Warrior, we did a better take off your helmet
• 1:11:05
  revealing that. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:11:08
  And everything has been done better here.
• 1:11:09
  Even Richard Shaw was better when he was in Frontier in Space
• 1:11:13
  and bored in the Space Museum than he is as the big the big
• 1:11:18
  big go to villain. Is there any?
• 1:11:22
  Is Richard Shaw in this? Yes.
• 1:11:25
  That's who. He is the chief seer.
• 1:11:28
  Oh well, no wonder I don't recognise.
• 1:11:31
  Are there any other monsters that just take the helmet off
• 1:11:33
  for a second then put them back on?
• 1:11:35
  Because I am thinking like the blue people and ambassadors of
• 1:11:37
  death sources. That's as.
• 1:11:39
  Close, I think, yeah. 1 moment, and then they're gone again.
• 1:11:44
  Yeah. And it's really interesting that
• 1:11:46
  in the book, Terence Dix takes out that they're robots and
• 1:11:49
  actually just makes them people, because they're far more
• 1:11:51
  interesting as people than they are as robots.
• 1:11:55
  I mean. It's really easy to knock
• 1:11:58
  Underworld, but I'm going to because it's just terrible and I
• 1:12:03
  really desperately want to love it because I like Luke.
• 1:12:07
  I really like a lot of the work of Bob Baker and Dave Martin and
• 1:12:12
  I love that their their imagination runs into places
• 1:12:15
  that it shouldn't run on Doctor Who's budget and they do it
• 1:12:19
  anyway. But this just doesn't succeed as
• 1:12:23
  drama on a lot of, for me anyway, on a lot of levels, and
• 1:12:27
  it's an instant bin. I think they get a kick in for
• 1:12:30
  that too much as well. Like it's, it's a producer's and
• 1:12:34
  director's job to make division. And I know, I know the writer
• 1:12:39
  should have a little bit, but bear in mind what's possible.
• 1:12:42
  But also they shouldn't be Hanford.
• 1:12:44
  And I think people submit scripts.
• 1:12:47
  They're just as ambitious as Bob Baker.
• 1:12:48
  They've not on, but they realized and no one really
• 1:12:51
  cares. You can't.
• 1:12:53
  You can't kick them for being too ambitious.
• 1:12:56
  I'm I'm onto a loser with this one because it's the opposite of
• 1:12:59
  horror fan rock. It's all ideas and no
• 1:13:02
  characters. I mean who are the characters in
• 1:13:04
  this? What is the name of the fella
• 1:13:06
  that the Doctor and Leela befriend for out this and he's
• 1:13:10
  with them for like two or three. I don't know anything about who
• 1:13:15
  the hell is EDA and why do we care about.
• 1:13:17
  Him. He was on the telly at the same
• 1:13:20
  time in Blake 7, Spacefall and Sickness Alpha as Mr. Archrix.
• 1:13:26
  So he was. He was getting his money from
• 1:13:27
  the BBC at this point. Was he the one who went down
• 1:13:30
  that tube and it got all filled up with the phone he's in this
• 1:13:34
  season? The the third in command on the
• 1:13:36
  ship. He was the nice one.
• 1:13:38
  Well, all the characters are very dull and I do think, sorry
• 1:13:41
  Paul, I think Alan Lake even struggles a little bit to lift
• 1:13:45
  the material and he is trying the hardest out of all of them.
• 1:13:48
  I mean, if he was riveting in the BBC bar, he could have
• 1:13:50
  brought a bit of that to this story.
• 1:13:52
  But then he can't bring too much to this way because then he'd be
• 1:13:55
  so far above everybody else who's fucking half asleep.
• 1:13:59
  I mean, none of them are acting, are they?
• 1:14:00
  They're walking around like zombies, including the director
• 1:14:04
  because the camera ain't moving at any point.
• 1:14:07
  I don't get on well with myths and legends either, I'm afraid.
• 1:14:11
  Sorry, Paul, I want to break your heart on this goal.
• 1:14:14
  So and I do think Nimon and other stories do it more
• 1:14:18
  entertainingly. I love the idea of all the rocks
• 1:14:23
  being pulled in on the spaceship.
• 1:14:24
  Yeah, me too. That that's great.
• 1:14:26
  And the special effects shot of the spaceship coming out of the
• 1:14:29
  rocks is absolutely brilliant. And all the fireworks going off
• 1:14:32
  all the people that said there that they fought their onto a
• 1:14:35
  winner in episode 1. I can see why because I, I watch
• 1:14:38
  episode 1 and go, you know what? It's a bit ponderous, but
• 1:14:42
  there's ideas here, you know? And then the second you're in
• 1:14:45
  those caves, literally the second they cut to is fake rocks
• 1:14:49
  coming down and people going and it's just like, oh God, what's
• 1:14:53
  happened? Don't trust that with how it's
• 1:14:55
  written in the book and that. Is amazing when when the
• 1:15:00
  spaceship impacts in the book, it is it is like a Hollywood
• 1:15:04
  blockbuster. And then, yeah, we're wandering
• 1:15:06
  around caves. We do that in Doctor Who all the
• 1:15:08
  time. And then it's a mad computer at
• 1:15:10
  the end. We do that in Doctor Who all the
• 1:15:12
  time. So where's the innovation here?
• 1:15:14
  I just don't see it. It's one of the very few stories
• 1:15:18
  where the behind the scenes documentary on the DVD is
• 1:15:22
  infinitely more entertaining than the story itself.
• 1:15:25
  It's so riversing, that documentary because it it tells
• 1:15:29
  the tale of how they were just determined to make this fucking
• 1:15:32
  thing hit the screen. And it's the work of talented
• 1:15:35
  people. You couldn't tell by watching
• 1:15:37
  it, but it is the work of talented people.
• 1:15:40
  It's like staying after hours doing ridiculously long hours.
• 1:15:44
  Even the higher ups saying maybe we'll pull this and they were
• 1:15:47
  apps and they got it on the screen and it got the highest
• 1:15:50
  rating of the season in episode Someone help me out three.
• 1:15:54
  But three, Yeah. So people came back after that
• 1:15:57
  cliffhanging. Oh my God.
• 1:16:01
  Well, there you go. Maybe gases.
• 1:16:02
  That's why I did it in the sun makers.
• 1:16:04
  Oh no, this is after the sun makers.
• 1:16:06
  Sorry. One thing we've not mentioned as
• 1:16:08
  well, there's only one of the surprisingly good bit of
• 1:16:12
  Underworld. And that's when there's that
• 1:16:13
  scene with about 50 extras and just for a second you're like,
• 1:16:17
  is this a movie you never see that many people on on ATV
• 1:16:21
  screen and Doctor Who. I actually think some of the CSO
• 1:16:24
  is pretty good. I think there's a there's a shot
• 1:16:27
  where they're in front of this enormous door and it's shot in
• 1:16:30
  such a way that it feels like it's got real scope in the
• 1:16:32
  cable. You can tell it's fake, but I
• 1:16:34
  know a lot of TV now looks fake. Yeah.
• 1:16:37
  Don't you think the CSO is bad? I think it's more that the use
• 1:16:41
  of it makes you struggle with any sort of geography just
• 1:16:47
  because of the use of it. The actual effect of it isn't
• 1:16:50
  bad. And the camera work is so static
• 1:16:53
  because they're concentrating on just getting it in the can,
• 1:16:56
  yeah. Which the behind the scenes,
• 1:16:58
  they've got that one rock in the studio that they keep going
• 1:17:01
  around and that's it. They're trying to position the
• 1:17:04
  camera so it adds depth to the field of vision as they add the
• 1:17:07
  special effects in. It really was pioneering, but in
• 1:17:10
  the same way that Babylon 5 was pioneering with special effects.
• 1:17:13
  It looks really shit now, unfortunately, because they went
• 1:17:16
  on and improved this technology and things got better.
• 1:17:19
  Yeah. The biggest problem with this is
• 1:17:21
  everyone seems so bored, including me.
• 1:17:23
  The director seems bored, the writers seem a little bit bored,
• 1:17:27
  the actors certainly seem bored. And so the biggest take away I
• 1:17:30
  take from this is just us, a boredom.
• 1:17:33
  It's going to have to go in the bin, I'm afraid.
• 1:17:35
  So Underworld falls despite Paul's incredible challenge.
• 1:17:41
  I know it feels, Paul, when everyone just doesn't listen to
• 1:17:44
  it. Voice Pride in the wilderness.
• 1:17:48
  Watch Underworld. But, but please can we say
• 1:17:52
  everyone go find the book because there's a great target.
• 1:17:56
  Yeah, you're selling the book to me, to be fair.
• 1:17:58
  It's really Terrance at its best.
• 1:18:00
  The way he describes the end of episode 1.
• 1:18:02
  The part of episode 2 I read out on a podcast recently.
• 1:18:05
  Amazing. It's beautifully read by Louise
• 1:18:08
  Jameson for the talking book version as well, so that's worth
• 1:18:11
  a listen Anyway, Right, So Underworld falls,
• 1:18:15
  unsurprisingly, perhaps. Joe, what's your first choice?
• 1:18:20
  Wow, it's a bit of a tricky 1. I want to go for Invasion of
• 1:18:22
  Time, but I'm a bit confused about how I feel about it.
• 1:18:26
  As you know, the commentary that we did, because I think episodes
• 1:18:30
  one to four are absolutely brilliant and I think episodes
• 1:18:34
  five and six are pretty much the deer of classic Who.
• 1:18:39
  So I've got a. Story of two halves, then.
• 1:18:41
  Yeah, it's got a brilliant doctor in it, hasn't it?
• 1:18:44
  You know, callous, corrupt, violent, unpleasant, selling out
• 1:18:48
  Galifrey to aliens and enjoying their downfall as a concept.
• 1:18:52
  That's incredible. And is this Tom Baker's best
• 1:18:56
  ever performance in terms of what they're asking him to do?
• 1:18:59
  You know, that shouting he does that vicious shouting and how
• 1:19:03
  sort of he ignores Leela quite a lot as well.
• 1:19:05
  I think he's really chilling. There's like, there's a
• 1:19:07
  wonderful sort of dark wit to him as well.
• 1:19:11
  There's a line where somebody goes, well, the castle and will
• 1:19:13
  have me shot, Sir. And he goes, well, that's all
• 1:19:15
  right, I'll have him shot. He's.
• 1:19:17
  Great though, he's really committed to that.
• 1:19:21
  I love Leela in the wilderness as well.
• 1:19:22
  People say that she doesn't get a good showing in her last
• 1:19:25
  story, but she's a savage to the last.
• 1:19:27
  Isn't she a warrior? She finds her own people on
• 1:19:30
  Gallifrey and she turns them into a fighting force.
• 1:19:33
  And thank fuck we go outside, because after the whole of
• 1:19:37
  Underworld and two episodes of The Invasion of Time in the
• 1:19:39
  studio, it's very refreshing to go outside.
• 1:19:43
  We've got Milton Johns and John Arna in there, so more fabulous
• 1:19:46
  character actors. And I think it's one of the few
• 1:19:49
  stories as well where the updated special effects on the
• 1:19:52
  DVD genuinely enhance the story. Because those Varden special
• 1:19:56
  effects are fucking terrible. Truly.
• 1:19:59
  I mean, tinfoil who? Who on earth made that call?
• 1:20:04
  And I also think the chemistry between Rodan and Leela is
• 1:20:07
  fabulous and it should have been the first gay romance in Doctor
• 1:20:10
  Who, nevermind Android. He fills a pairs of trousers
• 1:20:13
  beautifully. But they have the better
• 1:20:15
  chemistry and I look we did Gallifrey series one recently.
• 1:20:19
  Why didn't they bring Rodan back?
• 1:20:22
  Does. Does she ever come back?
• 1:20:23
  I don't think she does. Well, to be fair, they've only
• 1:20:27
  just. They're only just bringing Ray
• 1:20:28
  back after like 20 years, a big finish, and that to me is
• 1:20:32
  mental. I mean technically they did
• 1:20:34
  bring her back as Romana one in the next season didn't they?
• 1:20:37
  Right. I thought no Rodan.
• 1:20:39
  I know it's not Romana, but it's basically the same character.
• 1:20:43
  What big finish if I missed? You know, the sort of haughty
• 1:20:47
  Gallifrey and that's not used to the tricks of the universe.
• 1:20:50
  It's the same sort of character, five and six man, Oh my God, all
• 1:20:54
  that walking around the hospital, the dreadful comedy
• 1:20:58
  Sontarans, the fact that the doctor builds a gun at the end
• 1:21:01
  of the story and kills somebody. I know we're going for something
• 1:21:03
  climactic, but that just feels really wrong.
• 1:21:07
  It's really OK. And, and the the tipping point
• 1:21:09
  is the series for the episode for cliffhanger where the
• 1:21:12
  Sontarans arrive, which is potentially the best cliffhanger
• 1:21:16
  ever in the classic series. Yeah, it's great.
• 1:21:27
  But what is Derek Deadman doing inside that costume?
• 1:21:30
  I don't know what you're talking about, Joe.
• 1:21:33
  It's really terrible. It's got a great Barusa though,
• 1:21:36
  hasn't it? John Arnott that's sort of a
• 1:21:40
  little bit bored at times because he's sitting around the
• 1:21:43
  pool, you know, drinking out of his curly straw whilst all the
• 1:21:45
  actions going on. But I think you really believe
• 1:21:49
  the relationship between him and Tom Baker.
• 1:21:51
  Tom Baker just acts well with like, no, he acts respectfully
• 1:21:56
  with certain actors and he's really giving it his all for
• 1:22:00
  that relationship. I think it's the one time where
• 1:22:01
  actually by Brusa as a character with a relationship with the
• 1:22:05
  Doctor. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:22:07
  That's when he's brought back for the next story, you know?
• 1:22:13
  Is that arc of Infinity? Sorry, yes.
• 1:22:15
  Oh, boy, we've done that one. But Milton Johns is even better.
• 1:22:19
  You know, he's the ultimate slimeball, shifting alliances
• 1:22:23
  out of women. He's always out for himself.
• 1:22:25
  I love the bit where he, what is it?
• 1:22:27
  He says, oh, there's he's settling old scores and locking
• 1:22:30
  people up. He's a truly exploitative
• 1:22:33
  politician and he plays it to the hill.
• 1:22:36
  He says to the doctor at one point, doesn't he?
• 1:22:37
  Do you want me to round up all the known troublemakers as well?
• 1:22:40
  You know, he's absolutely. And then the second the
• 1:22:42
  Sontarans arrive it's like fuck that, I'm going to go on their
• 1:22:45
  side now they're in charge. There's loads of good stuff in
• 1:22:48
  it. There is money issues obviously
• 1:22:50
  vacuum form plastic coloured chairs on Gallifrey where it's a
• 1:22:53
  bit of a downgrade from the Deadly Assassin.
• 1:22:56
  But I think there's real ambition in the writing, and I
• 1:23:00
  think we've like 10 times the budget.
• 1:23:02
  This could be extraordinarily good.
• 1:23:05
  It's a great pilot for the Gallifrey audio series, which I
• 1:23:08
  love because a lot of the elements that are in this are
• 1:23:11
  followed up there. I'm going to say I would keep
• 1:23:16
  it. I mean, I'm not.
• 1:23:17
  My vote doesn't matter at this point.
• 1:23:18
  But I just think I think there's a lot of effort going into this
• 1:23:23
  and things outside of their control make this not as good as
• 1:23:27
  it could be. But I think this could be
• 1:23:29
  extraordinary. So I think we should keep this
• 1:23:31
  one. OK, well should we go over to
• 1:23:35
  the comments, Joe? So let's start with Julian
• 1:23:38
  Lewis, who says the Sontarans are the absolute best.
• 1:23:41
  So anything with them is up there, but they keep mucking
• 1:23:45
  around with the masks. The original Lynx was the best.
• 1:23:48
  Stop sculpting them, putting basins.
• 1:23:50
  That's what we want. Dan Hollingsworth says goes
• 1:23:53
  beyond fun runabout nonsense and becomes tiresome leader.
• 1:23:57
  Should have stayed behind with Rodan absolutely as she had much
• 1:24:00
  better chemistry with her. Love the rubbish cockney
• 1:24:03
  gangster Sontaran. Ian Banks says episode 4 is a
• 1:24:07
  great cliffhanger that the rest of the story can't possibly live
• 1:24:10
  up to. I love the wandering through the
• 1:24:12
  TARDIS despite it being very obvious padding and the big cars
• 1:24:15
  makes it feel epic. A mess, but a fondly remembered
• 1:24:19
  one. Jason Thompson Yes, the Varden's
• 1:24:21
  are bloody awful. It's bad enough they went for
• 1:24:23
  shimmering Baker foil, but to actually make them sound like.
• 1:24:27
  Shimmering Baker foil The same baffling choice.
• 1:24:31
  And yes, Leela's exit is dreadful, but it's wonderful
• 1:24:34
  fun. Big.
• 1:24:36
  Orange Bike, The 1st 2 episodes where we don't know if the
• 1:24:40
  Doctor was really betrayed Gallifrey are tense and
• 1:24:43
  entertaining. The next two, once the Varden's
• 1:24:45
  arrive, still work, if only for Milton John.
• 1:24:48
  Then the final 2GO off the rails, featuring corridor after
• 1:24:52
  corridor. Rare.
• 1:24:53
  You know I agree with Big Orange Michael, but here we are.
• 1:24:55
  Paul Cresser starts off being so good, doing something we've
• 1:24:58
  never done before, but as soon as it reveals what's going on,
• 1:25:01
  it descends into the worst kind of run again.
• 1:25:04
  Run around with possibly the limpest aliens ever.
• 1:25:08
  Razer Gregory says the ultimate Dogleg 6 parter with one of the
• 1:25:12
  show's best cliffhangers. Tom gives a remarkable turn as
• 1:25:15
  the term coat. Doctor Leela shows us how fast
• 1:25:18
  she's come and the other time not a well thought out and
• 1:25:20
  performed. It knows its limitations and
• 1:25:23
  leans into them, leaving us with something that is never less
• 1:25:26
  than entertaining a keeper. John Arnold, the Doctor going
• 1:25:30
  bad is a contrived idea that doesn't stand up to much
• 1:25:32
  scrutiny. Oh, John.
• 1:25:34
  How does this make him better than the villains he's opposed?
• 1:25:37
  And Gallifrey remains terminally dull.
• 1:25:39
  Sadly, a promising season meanders to a wet fart at the
• 1:25:43
  end. Daniel Knight says a great idea.
• 1:25:46
  The Doctor going bad and selling out Gallifrey.
• 1:25:48
  Frankly, the old gits had it coming, but the money's run out.
• 1:25:51
  So we have tinfoil aliens and ping pong balls as
• 1:25:54
  communicators. But some torrents are a nice
• 1:25:56
  surprise. But did all of store's clone
• 1:25:59
  batch have cockney accents? And Louise Jameson deserved a
• 1:26:02
  better exit. That bit where Milton Strons is
• 1:26:05
  holding up that yellow communicator ping pong ball and
• 1:26:09
  acting for all the world like it's sophisticated Taylor.
• 1:26:12
  That is character acting in the 70s, all right, Absolutely.
• 1:26:15
  I'm totally convinced. James Locke.
• 1:26:17
  Once the time laws were petty squabbling old fools.
• 1:26:20
  Now they're traitors and collaborators with a punch on
• 1:26:23
  for gaudy mouldy plastic furniture.
• 1:26:26
  But I kind of love this, which mostly convinces you it's
• 1:26:28
  coherent enough through the energy of the performances.
• 1:26:32
  Michael Storm says considering the issues with getting
• 1:26:34
  something to screen here, I'm willing to throw this one a
• 1:26:37
  bone. Plenty of good ideas, but it
• 1:26:39
  should have stopped at part 4. Leela send off his dumb and
• 1:26:42
  Gallifrey is dull and drab. Pity Roden wasn't keep kept on
• 1:26:47
  did. You not see how hot Christopher
• 1:26:49
  Transfer was in this? I mean, we all understood why
• 1:26:52
  she left, right? Apparently not, Dave.
• 1:26:56
  Rennie continues the wise formula of six parts of being
• 1:26:58
  two and four. Tom is incredible.
• 1:27:00
  Store as bushy eyebrows. Sontaran is a choice though.
• 1:27:05
  Jim Allenby says the Bardens are crap, the suntans are poorly
• 1:27:08
  acted, the TARDIS scenes are daft, Leaders exit is Paul, Tom
• 1:27:11
  is bunkers. But I really enjoy it, so much
• 1:27:14
  fun. Natalie Newby, the first story
• 1:27:16
  to really feel like a season finale since the Pertwee era.
• 1:27:19
  The stories major problem though is Tom, who by this point has
• 1:27:23
  given such an erratic performance that his seeming
• 1:27:26
  betrayal doesn't have the shock effect it should.
• 1:27:28
  Oh, I don't agree with that at all.
• 1:27:30
  I don't agree with that. I think he's got us a stillness
• 1:27:32
  and intensity to. Him I I don't think many doctors
• 1:27:36
  could pull this off, but he does.
• 1:27:37
  Absolutely. It's what Terence Dix always
• 1:27:39
  said. He's the only one you could
• 1:27:40
  believe would go bad. Where are we?
• 1:27:45
  All dumb. It's Paul Dunn.
• 1:27:48
  I know it's terrible, I know the Sontarans look like they've
• 1:27:50
  spent the night before on the piss, it looks cheap, it's
• 1:27:53
  padded, the Bardens look awful, and Lela's departure is woeful.
• 1:27:57
  But I love it. Such fun, especially the last
• 1:28:01
  two episodes. Anthony Carroll said Phil's too
• 1:28:04
  long and the Vardens are a let down.
• 1:28:06
  The Sontarans would have made a nice surprise at the time.
• 1:28:09
  Oh, someone did the music again. Thank you very much back to.
• 1:28:19
  You too long and forgettable and.
• 1:28:22
  Finally, Herald of Creation himself.
• 1:28:25
  Love the TARDIS scenes but it was confusing on 1st watch.
• 1:28:29
  Why are heroes behaving so oddly and being so mean to Leela?
• 1:28:34
  Well, so Joe, you have given a mixed opinion of this story, but
• 1:28:40
  I'm going to take this much. It's a positive, I'd say.
• 1:28:42
  I think so. I bloody love this story, I
• 1:28:46
  really do. This is my favorite of the
• 1:28:49
  season without a doubt. This is.
• 1:28:52
  I really, really have loved this story since the Target book and
• 1:28:58
  I was not at all disappointed when I finally got to see it.
• 1:29:01
  This is a story that had lived in my head since I was small and
• 1:29:06
  the idea of the Doctor going bad was such a brilliant mind
• 1:29:10
  bending idea. But I want to take us back
• 1:29:13
  because at this point in the season, the BBC have basically
• 1:29:17
  said, look, we haven't got the resources available for you to
• 1:29:21
  make this. The studios aren't available.
• 1:29:25
  And Graham Witt and they say, look, we'll give you the money
• 1:29:28
  and you can have the money and have that added to the budget
• 1:29:32
  for next year. And Graham Williams says, do you
• 1:29:35
  know what? No, I'm not taking that.
• 1:29:38
  I'm not leaving my first season with six parts.
• 1:29:42
  And then he there's a script crisis and he's got to write
• 1:29:46
  this story. And he could have written
• 1:29:48
  something that was playing it safe and could have been the
• 1:29:54
  planet of the Black Drapes where everything is dark all the time
• 1:29:58
  and they never see outside. He should have written something
• 1:30:01
  set in a psychiatric hospital. It would have fit perfectly.
• 1:30:05
  But what he goes for is a big, epic conclusion to his first
• 1:30:09
  season, and he really goes for it.
• 1:30:13
  And we give JNT all the kudos in the world for saving greatest
• 1:30:18
  show in the Galaxy at the last minute when there's no resources
• 1:30:22
  available and you're going to shoot it in the car park.
• 1:30:25
  But we never, ever celebrate Graham Williams for thinking, do
• 1:30:28
  you know what? We're going to do this in a
• 1:30:30
  psychiatric hospital. It's got all the things we need,
• 1:30:33
  and that will be fine. And he bloody goes for it, you
• 1:30:37
  know, just for that reason alone.
• 1:30:40
  It deserves to be celebrated more than it actually is.
• 1:30:43
  But I think it's a really good character study of the Doctor
• 1:30:48
  for the first time, perhaps in for a very long time, that the
• 1:30:51
  Doctor's been interrogated. And what he wants to do is go
• 1:30:55
  home and show to everyone on Gallifrey that he's not this
• 1:30:59
  long forgotten traveller in time and space who ran away because
• 1:31:03
  he was bored. That actually he means something
• 1:31:06
  and he's he can do everything better than them.
• 1:31:09
  And so he's going to come back, claim the presidency and be
• 1:31:13
  brilliant, take the get Gallifrey invaded.
• 1:31:19
  And then he knows the Vardan's are a bit crap and he knows how
• 1:31:22
  to defeat them. And then he can be the hero and
• 1:31:24
  say, look, they were rubbish. Absolutely, I've done it.
• 1:31:29
  Look. You think this is a massive.
• 1:31:31
  Ego trip? Yeah, basically, I think it is.
• 1:31:34
  It's the Doctor proving that he's better than the Time Lords
• 1:31:36
  think he is. And then just as he thinks he's
• 1:31:40
  done all of that, it all goes horribly wrong because he's the
• 1:31:43
  Doctor. And of course it goes wrong
• 1:31:46
  because he's a talented amateur at best.
• 1:31:48
  And the Sontorans have been using this the whole time and
• 1:31:52
  it's been seeded in in plain sight earlier on when we see
• 1:31:55
  that there's a battle fleet passing through this particular
• 1:31:58
  Galaxy in a particular formation, and they're on their
• 1:32:01
  bloody way to Gallifrey. They know what's about to
• 1:32:04
  happen. They've manufactured the whole
• 1:32:05
  thing. And the pardons are crap because
• 1:32:08
  they're meant to be crap. They're meant to be awful
• 1:32:12
  villains. And you think, why are they
• 1:32:14
  taking over Gallifrey? Why is he chosen them?
• 1:32:16
  Because he can defeat them all. And actually, even though
• 1:32:20
  they're crap, the idea that they can move along any transmitted
• 1:32:23
  lines is a really good idea. And then that gives the thing
• 1:32:27
  where you can't use the scanner, where the doctor can't, has to
• 1:32:31
  hide his faults. And he's more erratic than usual
• 1:32:34
  because he's having to hide everything because they can
• 1:32:36
  read, read him completely. And when you finally get that
• 1:32:40
  scene with him and Barusa in the beautifully designed lead lined
• 1:32:45
  room and his defence has come down and he's the normal doctor,
• 1:32:50
  it's really it's a great pay off to the whole thing.
• 1:32:53
  There is, so there is only so many times you can use that
• 1:32:56
  excuse though. You know, we said in Underworld,
• 1:32:58
  yeah, those actors, those characters are supposed to be
• 1:33:00
  bored. You said in Invasion of Time,
• 1:33:03
  yes, the Vardens were supposed to be crap.
• 1:33:05
  Well I mean we could just make great telly where people are
• 1:33:08
  bored and monsters are great. But I suppose in this case
• 1:33:12
  they're crap and then you actually get good ones.
• 1:33:15
  Not the world, not in Underworld.
• 1:33:17
  It's not boring. And then you get no.
• 1:33:19
  And you know it. I know we've got Bakerfoil
• 1:33:23
  monsters, but that wasn't what they were planning.
• 1:33:25
  And because of the way the story is being made, they can't do the
• 1:33:29
  optical effects that they want to do for the Bardens.
• 1:33:33
  And so they have to come up with something else that's far more
• 1:33:36
  basic, and there should have been very big glowing balls of
• 1:33:39
  lights. That's the best they can manage.
• 1:33:41
  I actually quite like the shivering state of the violence.
• 1:33:45
  I mean I've said I quite like the remnants in the ghost
• 1:33:49
  monument, which I just rag, so I've clearly got a thing for
• 1:33:51
  like. I think it's that like non
• 1:33:54
  humanoid thing. I think the violence are well
• 1:33:56
  worse when they turn into like it takes the threat of them to
• 1:34:06
  absolute zero, at least in the in the weird state they're just
• 1:34:09
  sort of crazy, weird aliens. But even there you've got better
• 1:34:13
  examples of that, like Erato in 17, or the Animus in the web
• 1:34:17
  planet you know, or visually impressive non humanoid
• 1:34:21
  monsters. But that aside, I'm also going
• 1:34:26
  to say this also goes through because it's the first time that
• 1:34:31
  the relationship between the Doctor and his dog is really
• 1:34:36
  established, and the scenes of the two of them talking together
• 1:34:40
  in the TARDIS console room are really magnificent.
• 1:34:44
  And it's the first time Canine is treated as a real character.
• 1:34:48
  And he's the Doctor's confidant, and he's actually the Doctor's
• 1:34:52
  best friend. Leela isn't the Doctor's best
• 1:34:54
  friend, but Canine is. He's the only one he can talk to
• 1:34:57
  about his plan and that he can trust.
• 1:34:59
  And Canine gets to do lots in this story, and it's really
• 1:35:04
  great. He gets to blast guards.
• 1:35:06
  He gets to go and blast the the transduction barrier controls.
• 1:35:12
  It's such a nice shot that when the when it sort of he rotates
• 1:35:15
  round and then blows it off. It's all on field as well.
• 1:35:17
  But it's not the turntable. That's all you need to do.
• 1:35:21
  We'll just set off a few minor explosions.
• 1:35:23
  Boom. Exactly, and then he's trusted
• 1:35:26
  with Rodan to make the Big D Mac gun at the end.
• 1:35:29
  So yeah, K9 comes into his his all marching round with a gun is
• 1:35:34
  not a great ending, it's true. But you know, again, I think
• 1:35:40
  this is where we've got another hurried script and they've just
• 1:35:43
  got to get six parts out and given another couple of passes,
• 1:35:49
  maybe they would have come up with something better, but they
• 1:35:51
  haven't got the time at this point, so.
• 1:35:55
  I'd take the gun over a power of love and take any day.
• 1:36:01
  Actually, now you've said that, Luke, I think the ending of this
• 1:36:03
  is terrific. At least he doesn't blow them up
• 1:36:07
  into stars, you know? Although while you're talking
• 1:36:10
  about endings, Can you imagine a new series companion exit where
• 1:36:15
  the Doctor just shut the door going, yeah, I'll miss you too,
• 1:36:18
  and that's it. Can you imagine that it would
• 1:36:20
  never happen? Would.
• 1:36:21
  It no, it wouldn't. But they're trying to keep
• 1:36:23
  Louise Jameson on, and they're hoping against hope that she
• 1:36:26
  will stay, you know, so. I did say something where Empire
• 1:36:30
  of Death would have been improved if Shitty got word, got
• 1:36:33
  out a massive DMACC gun and shot the dog.
• 1:36:39
  They're really selling me on this now.
• 1:36:42
  And no, for my last point, I'm just going to say I really love
• 1:36:46
  Dudley Simpson's music throughout this story
• 1:36:48
  particularly, and as we've hummed twice, the Santorum theme
• 1:36:53
  is really good. But the ceremonial music in Part
• 1:36:57
  1, that's the music I'm coming down the aisle to.
• 1:37:04
  It's you're joking. Oh God, no.
• 1:37:10
  And that bit at the end of Part 1 where we go from the
• 1:37:12
  ceremonial music into Dudley Simpson's actual incidental
• 1:37:16
  music. And it just fades between the
• 1:37:20
  two is absolutely superb. It's one of my favorite bits
• 1:37:23
  Doctor Who music ever. It's your.
• 1:37:25
  Favorite bit song where it goes? Also also the opening theme with
• 1:37:34
  with the with the big ship coming in is really good.
• 1:37:43
  And of course, the best though, right?
• 1:37:45
  Well. It's that your actual heartbeat,
• 1:37:49
  isn't it? It's just reflecting your
• 1:37:51
  heartbeat as it's happening. And it's the one time where the
• 1:37:54
  Doctor's look of shock on his face finally mirrors the
• 1:37:56
  audience. We're like what the fuck?
• 1:37:58
  Yeah. And the Sontarans look fucking
• 1:38:01
  awesome in that moment. Because they haven't taken
• 1:38:03
  their. Hats off at that point.
• 1:38:06
  So yeah, Invasion of Time, it's a win for me.
• 1:38:10
  Paul, what do you think of Invasion of Time?
• 1:38:14
  I watched it again last week and I've forgotten huge chunks of it
• 1:38:17
  already. It strikes me.
• 1:38:21
  I mean, obviously we know David Weirs weird cat thing in the
• 1:38:26
  football stadium is meant to be there and it's unworkable.
• 1:38:29
  And David Agnew comes to the rescue.
• 1:38:33
  And because David Agnew knows, as Robert Holmes knows when he
• 1:38:36
  writes Sun Makers about the fractious relationship between
• 1:38:39
  Jameson and Baker, it's structured in such a way that
• 1:38:42
  they're separated for huge chunks of it.
• 1:38:44
  So what you interest in here is you get the Doctor and another
• 1:38:48
  Doctor, because if you can't trust the Doctor, Leela has to
• 1:38:51
  take on that Doctor's role, Although curiously, Leela
• 1:38:53
  remains convinced the Doctor is fine.
• 1:38:55
  So, you know, rescue the Doctor and he'll solve all this.
• 1:38:57
  So Rodin becomes Leela's companion and Adrid becomes Tom
• 1:39:01
  Baker's companion. And it's really interesting when
• 1:39:03
  they're in the TARDIS there when the palace coup takes place,
• 1:39:07
  because it was, it's the third story in a row where you have an
• 1:39:10
  act of revolution and this palace coup collapses very
• 1:39:13
  quickly. And so that's where you get the
• 1:39:15
  acts of violence because it strikes me as an odd story in
• 1:39:19
  the it's like waiting for Godot. We're just hanging around
• 1:39:24
  waiting to know what's going to pan out.
• 1:39:25
  We're waiting for the wardens to turn up.
• 1:39:28
  And when they do turn up, they look like they're in the Rabbit
• 1:39:30
  Alliance, but the Merseyside branch of it.
• 1:39:32
  And so it's it's really whacking shit when they turn up.
• 1:39:37
  But I do like the tinfoil and I think whatever they would have
• 1:39:40
  done probably wouldn't look great.
• 1:39:43
  Although, you know, I do love Underworld.
• 1:39:44
  So what do I know about visually?
• 1:39:45
  But I think the idea that the your right side, the idea of the
• 1:39:49
  channel on beams is a really interesting way of getting
• 1:39:51
  around not having them physically there.
• 1:39:53
  But it does mean you've got this very strange sense of we don't
• 1:39:57
  know what's going on. They don't know what's going on.
• 1:40:00
  The doctor does know what's going on, but he can't tell us
• 1:40:02
  what's going on because then it would give the game away.
• 1:40:04
  So you do get this, this kind of strange sense of there's
• 1:40:08
  something going on. But there's nothing going on on
• 1:40:10
  the screen. So Leel is out training up the
• 1:40:13
  Shibuyans and it's going to be awesome.
• 1:40:15
  And when they get there, they're not actually needed.
• 1:40:18
  There's this kind of huge build up, build up, build up, and then
• 1:40:20
  it's kind of like a premature ejaculation at the end of four.
• 1:40:23
  But the end of four is awesome. The music is brilliant.
• 1:40:27
  The Sontarans emerging. That should be great.
• 1:40:29
  But what you then get is, as Joe's described, a lot of
• 1:40:32
  running around corridors. You maybe think actually there,
• 1:40:35
  Joe, that maybe they should have said it in a in a mental home
• 1:40:37
  and it should have been like Marat sad.
• 1:40:39
  And so the doctor's gone mad and we can't we actually trust the
• 1:40:42
  doctor because that's what they really want.
• 1:40:43
  You know, if you look at the discontinuity guy, they're
• 1:40:45
  thinking in terms of Caligula. It's never really that it's an
• 1:40:48
  awesome performance, though. Tom Baker at various points, but
• 1:40:52
  then he turns to the screen and he talks well.
• 1:40:56
  And that's that strange sense of this is what Baker really has
• 1:40:59
  wanted all season. He just wants us to be his
• 1:41:02
  companion or us to be in that kind of soliloquized
• 1:41:05
  relationship with him. And isn't he clever?
• 1:41:07
  And aren't you amazing, Tom? And shall we go out for a drink
• 1:41:10
  with you and Alan Lake and, and, and Francis Bacon?
• 1:41:12
  And won't you be great? We've all got spare underpants
• 1:41:14
  in our pocket. It's like Tom Baker's risen to
• 1:41:16
  this kind of heights. But where else does he go after
• 1:41:19
  that? Because the next season is kind
• 1:41:21
  of it's a curious performance by Baker.
• 1:41:23
  But I think you're you're probably right.
• 1:41:25
  There's elements in this that are as good as Baker has ever
• 1:41:28
  been and will ever be again, particularly when he is furious
• 1:41:33
  and he's playing that part of the dictator and the way he's.
• 1:41:36
  Scary, isn't it? It's.
• 1:41:38
  It's phenomenal And and what's good is you're right because
• 1:41:41
  he's got John Arnold there and he's an older figure and side to
• 1:41:45
  your point, once people push back against Baker, the bullshit
• 1:41:48
  stops. And there's a there's a real
• 1:41:51
  sense of a boy's own club throughout this this season.
• 1:41:54
  If you watch all those documentaries, there's A and we
• 1:41:56
  went down the pub Norma shoot went down the pub.
• 1:41:59
  He planned Underworld while he was pissed.
• 1:42:00
  Well, that's clearly the case there.
• 1:42:05
  And Jameson is a is separated from it and there's a lot of
• 1:42:08
  that running through here. So I think it's interesting that
• 1:42:10
  we get female characters turning up in this production.
• 1:42:13
  Rodin is really interested as a pro to Romana and and and
• 1:42:16
  Jameson is holding her own her exit.
• 1:42:18
  Yeah, if she's a few more scenes with him, but because they
• 1:42:23
  really think they can persuade her.
• 1:42:24
  But of course she gets Shakespeare at Bristol, so of
• 1:42:26
  course she's going to go. Why is she going to fuck around
• 1:42:28
  in this for any longer? She's done.
• 1:42:30
  She can. Do you know, she's essentially
• 1:42:32
  done Pygmalion in space. She's dealt with Baker for a
• 1:42:34
  year. She's carried this show
• 1:42:36
  essentially in various points of it.
• 1:42:38
  Why should she stick around? And so as her exit, it's kind of
• 1:42:43
  terrible, but they're never going to kill her off.
• 1:42:47
  At this point, it's it's too late.
• 1:42:48
  If you've got a story where canine is prominent, you don't
• 1:42:51
  get that level of darkness. There's no way they're going to
• 1:42:53
  kill off and have canine weeping over at the end of it.
• 1:42:55
  So they're kind of stymied because they she's got to go
• 1:42:57
  somewhere and fuck it, marry her off to the man with the tight
• 1:43:01
  trousers and the nice hair because Andrew's really, really
• 1:43:03
  interesting. There's a lots of nice stuff
• 1:43:06
  here, but there's just not enough, I don't think because
• 1:43:11
  they haven't had time to write a decent script and taking Holmes
• 1:43:15
  advice to do 4 + 2. It's the right thing to do.
• 1:43:18
  But it's a fatal mistake because they go for the Centaurus, which
• 1:43:22
  is excellent. But Derek Deadman, my God, he is
• 1:43:26
  shit. Or he could.
• 1:43:28
  Read I don't know what you mean. Yo, if they brought Windsor
• 1:43:32
  Davis along and they could have done what they would never.
• 1:43:35
  Oh yes. But.
• 1:43:37
  Even the masks are shit. I don't know what they've done
• 1:43:40
  about the Obviously they have to change the first mask because
• 1:43:44
  who's plays links? He has that heart condition.
• 1:43:46
  Kevin Lindsay. Yeah, Lindsay, who's phenomenal.
• 1:43:48
  I mean, we forget just how good those first two Sontarans are.
• 1:43:51
  And here's the moment, which it kind of ships because it was
• 1:43:55
  always a tendency to to be potentially a joke.
• 1:43:59
  Well, certainly a satire because Holmes will see thinks he's a
• 1:44:02
  satirist. He can write satire.
• 1:44:04
  Lynx is kind of a satire. But here it kind of shifts into.
• 1:44:08
  You've got to play it Seriously, though, don't.
• 1:44:10
  You, yeah. You can't play it for comedy,
• 1:44:12
  otherwise it just sinks. Yeah, because it doesn't work.
• 1:44:14
  It's not a comedy show. It's a show.
• 1:44:16
  It's a drama with comedic elements in it, and that's the
• 1:44:18
  balance. They did kind of lose control as
• 1:44:21
  Baker starts to push back against Williams because
• 1:44:23
  Williams is amazing, but I don't think he can push back here.
• 1:44:26
  He's still in control. Reed, I think, is doing a lot of
• 1:44:28
  heavy lifting here behind the scenes.
• 1:44:29
  And of course, and Gerard Blake famously puts Baker in his
• 1:44:32
  place. Doesn't he?
• 1:44:33
  Doesn't he tell him, I remember you and you were Patrick
• 1:44:34
  Troughton, Which is exactly what Tom Baker needs, which is why I
• 1:44:38
  think you get this awesome performance from him.
• 1:44:41
  Well, it's what was faceless. Amelia Rumford, what's her name?
• 1:44:44
  She says so. Doesn't she?
• 1:44:45
  It's Lehman. Yeah.
• 1:44:46
  Are you gonna do it like that? Yeah.
• 1:44:48
  Like did you? Didn't do it like that in the.
• 1:44:49
  Rehearsals and then he. Behaved from that point on, I
• 1:44:52
  mean, Baker's assumption, if you look at his career, you know he
• 1:44:55
  works with Olivier, he works. With Pasolini and he's on a
• 1:44:58
  building site. When Barry let's brings him in,
• 1:44:59
  you know you're working on a building site When I met you,
• 1:45:02
  That much is true. As as The Human League could
• 1:45:04
  have sung at Tom Baker and he is great and he's absolutely
• 1:45:08
  crucial. Well, what's fascinating
• 1:45:09
  watching the documentaries is now you get the stories and the
• 1:45:13
  only other context he sacked at the end of this season for the
• 1:45:15
  way he's carried on. What I found quite difficult
• 1:45:18
  though, is when they essentially start asking too many probing
• 1:45:21
  questions about Graham Williams. Baker's an old man at this
• 1:45:24
  point. Williams has been dead for 35
• 1:45:26
  years. It wasn't Tom Baker's fault, but
• 1:45:28
  he doesn't help the situation. And I think the fact that they
• 1:45:31
  get anything on the screen at this point and we've underworld
• 1:45:34
  is, is, is a comment of just how good Graham Williams is, how
• 1:45:39
  much he cares, how much Reid cares and Frank, how much the,
• 1:45:42
  the the the cast care about the show, particularly Jameson
• 1:45:45
  Baker. Baker can still do it and he's
• 1:45:48
  got something to work with here. And I think it probably is
• 1:45:51
  enough for me to say save it. Even though Joe, you're right,
• 1:45:54
  those last two episodes and the big gun, having spent five weeks
• 1:45:59
  going, what's our plot? If your plot point is give the
• 1:46:02
  doctor a gun and he can shoot the weird man with the Perry
• 1:46:06
  lip. That's kind of shit.
• 1:46:08
  Doctor Who should never end with a big gun.
• 1:46:11
  It should never end with the Doctor.
• 1:46:12
  Don't do anything like in Warriors Gale.
• 1:46:14
  The Warriors Gate gets the way of it.
• 1:46:15
  Here it is. He essentially hunts him down.
• 1:46:18
  It's an interesting technique, but I don't know.
• 1:46:20
  We want it again, so keep it, but with huge reservations.
• 1:46:24
  I wonder if they're sort of again riffing on the Deadly
• 1:46:27
  Assassin with the Doctor. Hunting gone.
• 1:46:30
  Yeah, what you were saying about Williams there as well is?
• 1:46:34
  When he then had the season. Break and he could come back
• 1:46:37
  refreshed. The budget pot is full again,
• 1:46:40
  and his new script editor is there with ideas.
• 1:46:43
  What you get is like the first four stories of season 16, and
• 1:46:46
  they're great. You know, Luke.
• 1:46:50
  Oh. When?
• 1:46:54
  When you started, Joe and you said like I'm not sure I was
• 1:46:59
  exactly the same, but very quickly just like, yeah, it's
• 1:47:05
  gotta go free. I actually, I actually have
• 1:47:09
  always really sought with challenge.
• 1:47:12
  With this one. And yeah, like obviously the
• 1:47:15
  journey through the centre of the tallest bit is a bit.
• 1:47:17
  Shit, but then I've always. Sort of had an affection for it
• 1:47:22
  because even seeing extra rooms in the TARDIS is like a 12 year
• 1:47:25
  old. Even if it is a hospital, was
• 1:47:27
  still exciting that it was in the TARDIS.
• 1:47:30
  Were you convinced that 12 that was the TARDIS?
• 1:47:33
  What you're told. Aren't you?
• 1:47:35
  It says. It says it's the TARDIS.
• 1:47:37
  So you just. Power classic who you're told
• 1:47:39
  you believe, take it on face value and I don't.
• 1:47:41
  Know what I needed to do was put a big.
• 1:47:43
  Round door on each wall, yeah. I mean, I don't because Journey
• 1:47:48
  to the Centre Tardis. Doesn't look like the inside the
• 1:47:50
  TARDIS. Either.
• 1:47:52
  And they've tried the kind of see, I mean, that's just got the
• 1:47:56
  classic huge charm of it, hasn't it?
• 1:47:59
  Whoever said it in the comments is exactly true.
• 1:48:02
  This feels like Doctor Who's first actual finale, like
• 1:48:06
  they've they've made a series finale for the first time, which
• 1:48:10
  is big and epic and it's going to blow your socks off.
• 1:48:14
  But obviously with it's it's cheaper.
• 1:48:16
  They haven't got much money to do it.
• 1:48:19
  But like you say inside fucking kudos to them for going there
• 1:48:23
  because they could have just played it safe.
• 1:48:24
  And the 1st 4 episodes do have that great tension of the Doctor
• 1:48:29
  being evil. Which if this is Pertway or
• 1:48:32
  Trouting or any of the others, it doesn't work.
• 1:48:35
  You need someone as fucking insane.
• 1:48:37
  Imagine it with Davidson. It would not work at all would
• 1:48:40
  it? Well, nothing works with.
• 1:48:42
  Davidson I tried it, nothing works with.
• 1:48:45
  Davidson. Yeah, Cliffhang is great.
• 1:48:53
  The Sontarans look amazing when they appear.
• 1:48:54
  It really puts them shitty green blobs from horror Fung rock in
• 1:48:57
  perspective, doesn't it? You think they're going to win
• 1:48:59
  the war then do you like. That cliffhanger, Luke, we are.
• 1:49:04
  Being invaded. I love that.
• 1:49:07
  I like the one Tom Baker with his hands in the air and.
• 1:49:11
  The Tardis. Got into a Black Star.
• 1:49:14
  You can just see him writing the.
• 1:49:16
  Script going Oh yes, you know this is going to be great.
• 1:49:20
  It's not a thing of yeah, I think we.
• 1:49:23
  People we know it's. Bad.
• 1:49:25
  I can't really put my finger on why it's bad.
• 1:49:27
  Because I do. Actually enjoy it and I think
• 1:49:29
  like I'd put this on on a Friday night and just have a great time
• 1:49:34
  with the whole 6 episodes of it. Don't really care about all the
• 1:49:40
  Bilbo bugging stuff in the desert, whatever they're called.
• 1:49:44
  But it is refreshing though isn't it?
• 1:49:46
  But it's nice to get out of them sets.
• 1:49:48
  Yeah. Yeah, I can't say one thing to
• 1:49:52
  you, Luke Malloy. You know, considering you came.
• 1:49:54
  In and with the new. Series it is very bold over the
• 1:49:58
  invasion of Time, the only Doctor Who story ever to
• 1:50:01
  actually stage an invasion of Gallifrey.
• 1:50:04
  Because in the new series we're always seeing the aftermath.
• 1:50:06
  Obviously the TARDIS children, you know that dusty Gallifrey we
• 1:50:09
  saw there the aftermath of the Time War.
• 1:50:11
  We saw a little tiny bit of it in Day of the Doctor, but not a
• 1:50:15
  lot. I'm going to break break the
• 1:50:16
  budget there. But here in the invasion of
• 1:50:18
  Time, it is literally an invasion of time.
• 1:50:23
  Yeah. And it feels like episode by
• 1:50:25
  episode they take. They're stripping.
• 1:50:26
  Down the barriers, they're stripping down the things and
• 1:50:29
  and Oh my God, you're going to let something in.
• 1:50:31
  And I think the ball, as all three of you were talking, the
• 1:50:33
  more it's like, Oh yeah, it's the most doctory thing ever,
• 1:50:37
  isn't it? I've got this great plan.
• 1:50:38
  I'm going to show off and defeat the violins and then the last
• 1:50:41
  minute the Santari is just walking.
• 1:50:43
  That is so talk to me what Paul was saying about like him
• 1:50:47
  speaking to camera and getting too big for his boots.
• 1:50:49
  It almost helps the story because he is getting too big
• 1:50:53
  for his boots and he thinks this is the best way to go about
• 1:50:56
  defeating the Wardens, which there's surely a better way of
• 1:50:59
  doing it if they've done that for a whole story where what
• 1:51:04
  Paul said we're the companion. And the doctor just talks to us
• 1:51:07
  for our entire story, but you take away that cliffhanger and
• 1:51:11
  this is this is a bit shit if it ends.
• 1:51:13
  With the Wardens. Be defeated.
• 1:51:14
  This is this is not that great. You wouldn't want it.
• 1:51:17
  You wouldn't want it to finish there.
• 1:51:18
  And it's not. It's not just the cliffhanger.
• 1:51:20
  It's not just that great moment, I think.
• 1:51:22
  It is that that the whole story is being built to the Doctor
• 1:51:26
  getting too big for his boots and showing off.
• 1:51:29
  And then the most Doctor you think ever.
• 1:51:31
  Oh no, we've been waiting for this the whole time.
• 1:51:34
  Yeah, it's great Leader send off his shit, but so, so many of
• 1:51:39
  them in the classic series. Ramona 2 I think is a bad one.
• 1:51:43
  People like it, but I think that's quite a bad one.
• 1:51:46
  The Maritime send off. Oh yeah, I'm remember 1.
• 1:51:50
  What's so? Shocking though, is we've just
• 1:51:52
  had Joe. Grants and we've just had Sarah.
• 1:51:54
  James and they're both great. So they're sort of setting a
• 1:51:57
  precedent that the exits are going to be really good.
• 1:52:00
  This definitely is a oh, no, I'm staying.
• 1:52:03
  Yeah, yeah. I mean also I think the version
• 1:52:06
  I watched was. Was corrupted.
• 1:52:08
  In some way on the Blu-ray, because the Jaws have Clara in
• 1:52:11
  it, I didn't see Clara in mind. That's it, Bin.
• 1:52:20
  Yeah, no, let's go through that's not.
• 1:52:21
  Rumbling So Invasion of Time joins horror Fang Rock.
• 1:52:26
  That's another story going. Through OK, so it's over to me
• 1:52:31
  and. I am.
• 1:52:32
  Going to go for the invisible enemy.
• 1:52:40
  Oh boy. And.
• 1:52:45
  This is a very. Interesting story because it is
• 1:52:51
  doing the culmination of the Hinchcliffe years, which is an
• 1:52:56
  era that largely is about possession of characters.
• 1:53:01
  And so it is going for the ultimate story of the ultimate
• 1:53:05
  possession, which is the possession of the Doctor.
• 1:53:09
  We've seen the companion possessed, we've seen many minor
• 1:53:13
  characters possessed, but the Doctor has never succumbed other
• 1:53:17
  than those few moments with SU Tech.
• 1:53:19
  And so it must be an incredible enemy that can do this to the
• 1:53:24
  Doctor himself. And it is.
• 1:53:28
  It's the nucleus of the swarm. Incredible is the word.
• 1:53:32
  It is. I'm a.
• 1:53:33
  Swarm. But the idea of a virus
• 1:53:39
  possessing the doctor? And moving from 1 dimension to
• 1:53:44
  another and creating its spawn is an interesting idea.
• 1:53:50
  It's in true Bob Baker and Dave Martin imagination terms, it's a
• 1:53:58
  fantastic idea to go inside Doctor Who's brain and have an
• 1:54:04
  adventure and whole episode set inside the Doctor's baroque
• 1:54:09
  looking brain. What was outside?
• 1:54:13
  Oh, it was just the passing forward.
• 1:54:14
  Don't. Worry to take the.
• 1:54:16
  Ideas of biology and to create it.
• 1:54:19
  As a physical space, literally a physical space, particularly the
• 1:54:25
  the dark chasm of his darkest forts not being seen and a
• 1:54:29
  bridge over to the other side, it's superb.
• 1:54:33
  It's such a brilliant and amazing idea and they really go
• 1:54:38
  for it. The design work by Barry Newbury
• 1:54:40
  is particularly brilliant for those scenes and it's all sort
• 1:54:45
  of CSO models, but the CSO actually just about works here.
• 1:54:49
  It's it's just enough to sort of sell this.
• 1:54:53
  And there are some amazing things actually for Tom and
• 1:54:56
  Louise here where actually you do get a sense of a good
• 1:55:00
  partnership sort of coming together where she's the hunter
• 1:55:04
  who's got the instinct to go and do this and the doctor's the
• 1:55:07
  explainer who's sort of there telling her where they are.
• 1:55:11
  That works really well. You've got the introduction of
• 1:55:15
  the ultimate fantastic, amazing thing, the first thing in
• 1:55:21
  Doctor. Who that I?
• 1:55:22
  Fell in love with Professor Marius.
• 1:55:24
  Oh, sorry, I'm. It shouldn't.
• 1:55:29
  Work. It's a robot dog.
• 1:55:32
  It could have gone. Wrong on so many levels.
• 1:55:35
  It could have been a man in a suit dressed up and painted
• 1:55:38
  silver, doing all the things that John Leeson was doing on
• 1:55:42
  the on the rehearsal room floor. It could have been a piece of
• 1:55:47
  remote control junk that falls apart as soon as it goes into
• 1:55:50
  the studio. Oh no, it was.
• 1:55:53
  But I thought you were talking about chameleon then, do you
• 1:55:55
  know? Well, that's well, yeah.
• 1:55:57
  Exactly. And that's another sort of
• 1:55:59
  pitfall, but. Somehow the ridiculous voice
• 1:56:04
  that they come up. With it with John Leeson.
• 1:56:09
  It just works with the Tin Dock itself, which is a brilliant and
• 1:56:13
  phenomenal piece of design and you can see absolutely why
• 1:56:16
  they're making this. And despite it crashing into
• 1:56:19
  cameras and despite it causing havoc on the studio floor and
• 1:56:23
  causing problems, they immediately think, you know
• 1:56:26
  what, we're on to something here.
• 1:56:28
  And it's the first brilliant bit of it's Williams's first story
• 1:56:32
  and it's the first brilliant decision he makes is we're going
• 1:56:36
  to keep the Tin Dog on because there's something, something
• 1:56:38
  incredible here. We're going to try and refine it
• 1:56:41
  as best we can. But there's something here that
• 1:56:43
  is really special. And John, you're not doing
• 1:56:46
  anything. Just come and be the voice of
• 1:56:48
  this robot dog. And here we are 40 odd years
• 1:56:51
  later and he is still the voice of the Tin Dog and he's
• 1:56:56
  absolutely wonderful. We still love him.
• 1:56:59
  Bring him back, absolutely. Who?
• 1:57:01
  Didn't feel it in school reunion.
• 1:57:03
  When he turned up. Absolutely.
• 1:57:05
  And when he exploded, it was the most sad thing.
• 1:57:09
  Ever and then when he like when the TARDIS.
• 1:57:11
  Vanished at the end and he was sitting there and.
• 1:57:13
  They went off down the path. It was awesome.
• 1:57:15
  Oh beautiful. And when he came up the safe in
• 1:57:19
  the Sarah. Jane event just for that one
• 1:57:20
  little bit. He's got his fucking a black
• 1:57:24
  hole. You know it's it's.
• 1:57:29
  It's a great idea and such a Bob Baker and Dave.
• 1:57:32
  Martin thing to say Dave Martin lost his dog recently and was
• 1:57:38
  still mourning the loss of his dog.
• 1:57:40
  And so why not make a dog that's absolutely immortal and isn't
• 1:57:43
  going to be ravaged by illness or whatever?
• 1:57:46
  And it's space, so of course you can have a tin robot dog.
• 1:57:49
  Why not? It's their legacy, isn't it?
• 1:57:51
  I think if they hadn't of invented canine they would be.
• 1:57:54
  Remembered as the over ambitious writers?
• 1:57:57
  Yeah, but they. But I'm the inventors of the
• 1:57:59
  minions. Absolutely.
• 1:58:04
  I've forgotten. Who that is?
• 1:58:05
  Again, sorry. Is that among the world?
• 1:58:07
  Yeah. But the other thing.
• 1:58:10
  Graham Williams. Does and it's something that he.
• 1:58:12
  Is lauded. For and does do every season and
• 1:58:16
  he throws the money at the model work and this is where he gives
• 1:58:22
  the special effects guys. Their head and.
• 1:58:24
  Said look, show us what you can do.
• 1:58:26
  We're going to do a space opera. Give it all you've got.
• 1:58:30
  I'm going to give you a big chunk of the budget.
• 1:58:32
  Show us what you can do. We've got, we know there's this
• 1:58:36
  big sci-fi epic on the way. Let's see what we can do at the
• 1:58:40
  BBC when you've got the money and the time to do it.
• 1:58:43
  And the model work stands up really well to the extent that
• 1:58:47
  the CGI replacements that they did look shit in comparison to
• 1:58:51
  the original model work and was not something that actually
• 1:58:54
  needed replacing. The model work is really
• 1:58:57
  fantastic. You know when that spaceship
• 1:58:58
  first comes into the Titan base? Really detailed.
• 1:59:01
  With all those little satellites and things, the CGI is shocking
• 1:59:05
  in comparison. Yeah, and even the model work of
• 1:59:08
  the the spawn. Of the nucleus bubbling away in
• 1:59:12
  the tank is really well done. It's a complete RIP off of the
• 1:59:16
  Quatamas experiment. There's a scene exactly the same
• 1:59:20
  where he looks through to the vault and sees the monsters
• 1:59:22
  bubbling underneath. Or Quatamas 2 maybe.
• 1:59:25
  But it's so well done and so, so good fun.
• 1:59:29
  It's it's really good. Not quite so good is the
• 1:59:34
  performance of Freddie Yeager as Professor Marius and his amazing
• 1:59:39
  accent, who is quite good to play dramatic because of course
• 1:59:42
  he's a mad professor and what else would you do to make him
• 1:59:45
  different to Professor Sorenson, who was the most boring
• 1:59:48
  character ever in Doctor Who? I just hope he's TARDIS trained.
• 1:59:58
  But I do like his spectacles. With the extra bit of glass over
• 2:00:01
  to the. Top of his nose for no reason
• 2:00:04
  whatsoever other than their futuristic glasses.
• 2:00:07
  Spacey. Exactly.
• 2:00:09
  But we do have the phenomenal Michael Sheared.
• 2:00:12
  Playing the villain. And he's having the time of his
• 2:00:14
  life. He's really enjoying this one,
• 2:00:17
  he said in every interview. That was the one with.
• 2:00:20
  Jameson, wasn't it? Yeah, I love that one.
• 2:00:22
  And we get both sides of of Michael sheared because he's
• 2:00:25
  really lovely. As low before he is, before he's
• 2:00:29
  taken over by the swarm. And so you get nice weird, nice
• 2:00:33
  friendly Michael sheared. And then you get evil Michael
• 2:00:35
  sheared as well. So what could be better than
• 2:00:38
  that? It's so funny though, isn't it?
• 2:00:39
  When you turn evil, you got caught.
• 2:00:40
  More on your face you have to wear.
• 2:00:42
  Enormous goggles to try and hide the fact that you've been
• 2:00:45
  possessed. How do you know this is another
• 2:00:49
  story? That I absolutely.
• 2:00:50
  Adored as a child and. Joe, you'll remember this
• 2:00:53
  because I put the target book through and as part of my top
• 2:00:56
  ten favorite Doctor Who books ever because on paper, this
• 2:01:01
  story is really, really brilliant.
• 2:01:05
  It's just a shame about the prawn.
• 2:01:08
  But you know so many they can't in a.
• 2:01:12
  In a. Season of.
• 2:01:13
  Shit monsters I. Don't think it stands.
• 2:01:15
  Out. No, I think it's phenomenally
• 2:01:19
  funny the way. All the people are pulling it
• 2:01:22
  down the corridor on its wheels because he can't actually move
• 2:01:26
  on its own, and he's busy wobbling away down the corridor
• 2:01:30
  shouting spawn spawn only when he's just that.
• 2:01:35
  Tentacle coming out of the floor and the doctor's talking to the
• 2:01:38
  arm. Flapping about, it's just
• 2:01:40
  wonderful. It's the bin bag with a big hand
• 2:01:43
  coming out of it. But you know what?
• 2:01:47
  They attack this story with such verve that I'm going to put it
• 2:01:52
  through just for that reason. I think this is it's, if nothing
• 2:01:56
  else, it's always fun. And you can't say that for
• 2:02:00
  Underworld. I mean, I know we've got the
• 2:02:03
  comments, but I literally cannot.
• 2:02:06
  Wait to hear what our guests. Think about it visible.
• 2:02:08
  Enemy. What else could they say?
• 2:02:12
  But it's really. Great.
• 2:02:14
  Well, should we go? To the comments, yes, hang on,
• 2:02:17
  I've just got to find. Them well, I'll.
• 2:02:20
  Do the first one while you're while you're looking.
• 2:02:24
  Luke Simmons, Jenkins says. I know I shit.
• 2:02:26
  On Bob and Dave. Oh, and that is bad.
• 2:02:30
  But contact has been made. It's fun with some great bonkers
• 2:02:34
  ideas and an awesome robot doggo keep Matley Newby says the first
• 2:02:40
  story in a. While to look a bit rubbish,
• 2:02:42
  that said, it's also the first to try something new.
• 2:02:46
  The performances are OK, but the story swings between inventive
• 2:02:49
  and cringey, with the insights of the doctor's brain being
• 2:02:51
  particularly daft. Joe Llewellyn.
• 2:02:54
  Interesting concept, honest attempt at fantastic voyage.
• 2:02:57
  Effects Yay canine herald of creation.
• 2:03:01
  So it's fun for the kids, but a bit all over the place.
• 2:03:04
  Brizo Gregory Oh, no, I don't know what that was.
• 2:03:09
  Enter canine pursued by one of doctor.
• 2:03:12
  Who's most ridiculous? Creations camp as fuck.
• 2:03:15
  Daft as a brush, batshit crazy, but fun to watch.
• 2:03:19
  What else do you want? Keep James Lark says the Bristol
• 2:03:23
  boys were veterans by now adept at.
• 2:03:24
  Conceiving strong. Sci-fi concepts and character
• 2:03:27
  driven drama. So above all, familiar with the
• 2:03:30
  limitations of the Doctor Who budget.
• 2:03:33
  So what the hell is this? Jim Allenby says.
• 2:03:38
  Not the greatest story in the. World.
• 2:03:40
  And not one I regularly put on. But it's all right, isn't it?
• 2:03:44
  It's got some experimental SFX, Marius is a delight, it
• 2:03:48
  introduces canine, and it's got a laughable monster.
• 2:03:51
  A bit of fun, Jason Thompson says.
• 2:03:54
  A decent concept, hamstrung because all.
• 2:03:57
  Anybody remembers is the introduction of canine and that
• 2:04:00
  awful giant prawn thing? Daniel Knight would have been
• 2:04:04
  great if the enemy had stayed invisible.
• 2:04:06
  Sadly, the nucleus of the prone looks terrible and there's lots
• 2:04:10
  of stilted space acting. Oh my, Mark hates that bit.
• 2:04:13
  You know where they'll go? Come and join the party at the
• 2:04:16
  start. That's his least favorite scene.
• 2:04:20
  The scenes in the doctor's brain.
• 2:04:21
  Look good for the time though. John Arnold, says Holmes still
• 2:04:25
  encouraging his writers to Nick. Ideas from 60s.
• 2:04:28
  Films, but it's the first real glimpse of the new era era with
• 2:04:31
  shoddier production values and tension toned down.
• 2:04:34
  Guess it would be better regarded with Hinchcliffe's
• 2:04:36
  horror fetish and disregard for budget.
• 2:04:39
  My Ralph can't say the word era either.
• 2:04:42
  You've got a lot of Corbin. David Pratt says it's often said
• 2:04:46
  that the model effects are comparable to those seen in UFO
• 2:04:49
  in Space 1999. Clearly, these people have never
• 2:04:52
  seen those shows, as while the models themselves look nice,
• 2:04:55
  once they move, they look awful. Oh, David.
• 2:04:58
  No, that's. Oh, this is the man who loved
• 2:05:02
  Underworld. Yeah.
• 2:05:03
  Yeah. Nobody's perfect.
• 2:05:06
  Michael Storm says. Despite introducing canine, this
• 2:05:09
  is. Utter.
• 2:05:09
  Utter, utter shit. Especially that fucking shrimp.
• 2:05:14
  We have a virus that doesn't act like a virus.
• 2:05:15
  Some ridiculous ideas about cloning, atrocious costume and
• 2:05:18
  set design. At least the model work is good.
• 2:05:22
  Let's all remember again, though, just one last time,
• 2:05:25
  that. What the hell is that?
• 2:05:27
  Neil Gaiman's sideman story called Nightmare and Silver is
• 2:05:31
  Michael Storm's favorite sideman story.
• 2:05:33
  All right, so his sort of gauge is a bit off.
• 2:05:36
  I'm not being funny. The shrimp follows the green
• 2:05:39
  BLOB, which. You know, goes into tinfoil at
• 2:05:42
  the end of the season. It's just not.
• 2:05:45
  Why does the shrimp get singled out so much?
• 2:05:48
  We also get another green BLOB along the way, don't we?
• 2:05:50
  Going down a toilet. Well, we do.
• 2:05:56
  Luke. Over to you.
• 2:05:57
  Oh. I can't wait for this.
• 2:05:59
  Is it not Joe? Oh, what is it?
• 2:06:00
  Me. Oh.
• 2:06:01
  No, it is. Joe isn't.
• 2:06:02
  It oh hello. Oh, you're here?
• 2:06:05
  Yes. I remember.
• 2:06:07
  I've. Only hosted this once.
• 2:06:09
  You know, for. Every single special.
• 2:06:11
  Effect that doesn't work in invisible enemy.
• 2:06:13
  I think there's one that works really really well.
• 2:06:16
  I love the rocks flying towards the camera at the start of the
• 2:06:19
  story with that crazy Douglas Simpson music going.
• 2:06:22
  I like the Nucleus as a cloud and lightning in space.
• 2:06:25
  The brilliant and detailed model work is great.
• 2:06:28
  The tight and bass is really well designed.
• 2:06:31
  Like you said side the blackness of the Doctor's mind that
• 2:06:33
  separates reason from imagination.
• 2:06:35
  The dark force of the so that huge weird scaffolding of
• 2:06:39
  neurons that they're walking up and down, massive scope to it.
• 2:06:44
  And yeah, I do love those. What was that it was just a
• 2:06:46
  passing for? It's a great line.
• 2:06:49
  I think this is 1 script where it doesn't really matter that
• 2:06:54
  Bob and Dave are not conforming to any kind of narrative
• 2:06:58
  structure because they literally switched tone and genre from
• 2:07:02
  episode to episode. Like it's so bizarre.
• 2:07:06
  They refuse to let themselves get bored and they just shift
• 2:07:09
  directions as they like and as a result I don't get bored.
• 2:07:13
  So we go from possession horror in episode 1 to a hospital drama
• 2:07:17
  in Episode 2, to Honey, I Shrunk the Doctor inside His head in
• 2:07:21
  episode 3 to B movie Sluggy Eggs and Big Prawns in episode 4.
• 2:07:26
  I mean, there's no other Doctor Who story that shifts around as
• 2:07:30
  crazy as this, apart from possibly the underwater menace,
• 2:07:33
  but that's also sublime. So yeah, I like the fact that
• 2:07:37
  they just for once they just throw it all at the wall and the
• 2:07:40
  resulting mess is very entertaining to watch.
• 2:07:44
  I think it's got very witty lines in it.
• 2:07:46
  You can still feel Robert Holmes script editing this story.
• 2:07:50
  I think it has a really light, almost like sitcom like
• 2:07:53
  direction to it. It skips from 1 scene to
• 2:07:56
  another. Oh, that would explain that.
• 2:07:59
  Then. It does feel as if this is
• 2:08:01
  somebody, one that understands comedy, but for the only time in
• 2:08:05
  the season understands pace. And this has actually got quite
• 2:08:09
  a good pace to it as well. There's like a really great
• 2:08:12
  moment where the cameras behind Tom Baker tracking along with
• 2:08:16
  him as he's got the gum and he's hunting Leela down the
• 2:08:20
  corridors. It's it's a really thoughtful
• 2:08:22
  bit. First good cliffhanger of the
• 2:08:24
  season, as you say, Luke. Yeah, it's got.
• 2:08:28
  Mad Ideas. It's hugely overly ambitious,
• 2:08:31
  malleable storytelling. I think it's a riot, this story.
• 2:08:35
  I love it. And I especially love Frederick
• 2:08:38
  Jaeger's terrible accent. I love a terrible accent.
• 2:08:42
  Yes, please. Let's keep the invisible with
• 2:08:43
  me. OK?
• 2:08:45
  Luke, what do you think best? Of the season, yes.
• 2:08:51
  By a mile. It's the sheer scale of it.
• 2:08:55
  You know, this is this is Doctor Who from the comics, but on your
• 2:08:59
  TV screen, you go from a spaceship, you go, you go to
• 2:09:03
  Jupiter base, you're flying to a space hospital.
• 2:09:06
  You've got the the weird finglish signs.
• 2:09:10
  You know that they use exit isolation ward and stuff like
• 2:09:15
  that, which is stupid, but it sort of tonally works.
• 2:09:20
  And what you're saying Joe about it changing every episode, like
• 2:09:23
  the whole thing is just a voyage and it and it does feel
• 2:09:27
  explorative in space in a way that doctor hasn't felt like for
• 2:09:31
  a long, long, long time. I mean, it's the most
• 2:09:35
  adventurous story of the season. I'm probably of the many seasons
• 2:09:39
  before it. And I just think when people
• 2:09:42
  come at it and give it a hard time, you could have a really
• 2:09:47
  nice looking fishy. The fine story, like the mask of
• 2:09:51
  Manja Gora last season, but Oh my God, give me the invisible
• 2:09:55
  enemy any day of the mask if I just go because this stuff
• 2:09:58
  happening, it's exciting. It's yeah, like a voyage.
• 2:10:02
  I don't need Doctor Who to be polished and perfect.
• 2:10:05
  I just need it to. Alight.
• 2:10:06
  My brain in some sort of fun and exciting way.
• 2:10:10
  And The Invisible Enemy does that from episode to episode.
• 2:10:15
  Canine. Great.
• 2:10:17
  Obviously the design, the practicality, the voice, spot
• 2:10:20
  on. Admittedly, he's quite lame when
• 2:10:22
  he just limply destroys that bit of wall, but you know, No, no,
• 2:10:28
  he is so powerful that that. Wall nose is about to be
• 2:10:31
  destroyed and you can already see the damage before his gun
• 2:10:35
  even goes off. But he's great.
• 2:10:39
  He is great. And like.
• 2:10:42
  Yeah, it's so it's sort of weird how much we forget about him
• 2:10:46
  when he's such a big part of the 70s and definitely as she like,
• 2:10:50
  as you say. So it must be a huge part of why
• 2:10:52
  kids love to Doctor Who in and around that time as well.
• 2:10:57
  And when when I was coming to the new series, I was obsessed
• 2:11:00
  with canine from School Reunion, absolutely obsessed.
• 2:11:04
  And they brought that box set Canine tails it and it had this
• 2:11:08
  and and Canine and Company and I loved this.
• 2:11:11
  And I never watched Canine and Company.
• 2:11:13
  I've watched it once at the time.
• 2:11:16
  I think it doesn't get talked about because fandom at the
• 2:11:20
  time. Were a bunch of late teens,
• 2:11:23
  early 20 year olds who were not the right age for canine and so
• 2:11:28
  they were vaguely embarrassed by it because it was childish and
• 2:11:32
  Doctor Who was should be all grown up and horror and so it
• 2:11:36
  didn't fit. Gary Russell has said exactly
• 2:11:39
  that, that he was exactly the wrong age for it and so he hated
• 2:11:43
  him. Yeah, I can get that and.
• 2:11:48
  Yeah, I know. And I like the sort of killing
• 2:11:50
  at last. Resort to save the day.
• 2:11:52
  You know, like Leela stabs suffering, a doctor blows up the
• 2:11:55
  nucleus epic. It's and it's not it's not just
• 2:11:58
  killing him, you know, it's not the brain and Morbius gassing.
• 2:12:02
  It's it's the last resort. And do you like how he tries to
• 2:12:06
  take Lila's idea as well? You know, it's like, yeah.
• 2:12:09
  I blown them up. No, that's my idea.
• 2:12:11
  Oh yes, Episode 3, we'll blow them up, I think.
• 2:12:15
  It's sort of a sad. Thing that like Doctor Who
• 2:12:18
  wouldn't be seen. Dead these days, doing something
• 2:12:21
  like this, it loses a lot from the character.
• 2:12:25
  I think of not just the moral ambiguity, but like, it robs it
• 2:12:30
  of the drama as well. If you know, the doctor's never
• 2:12:32
  going to do stuff like this. Do you know though I think the
• 2:12:35
  closest the new series has got to.
• 2:12:37
  Capture in this sort of tone and go with me here because
• 2:12:40
  obviously there are massive differences.
• 2:12:42
  Family is the rings of Accaten, which is your favorite.
• 2:12:45
  You know that feeling of adventurousness of going out
• 2:12:48
  into space, that lightness of tone.
• 2:12:50
  All of them yeah I'm with you there.
• 2:12:52
  And and shit. Aliens, yeah.
• 2:12:54
  Terrible, terrible monster at the end, yeah.
• 2:12:58
  Like. Yeah, I don't want to see Bill
• 2:13:00
  Potts like. Machete down one of the monks.
• 2:13:03
  You know, it's not really what I'm saying, but I think the
• 2:13:06
  doctor can kill and not be wrecked with guilt like he sort
• 2:13:09
  of does in the in the classic series.
• 2:13:12
  And like, and especially when things get too big.
• 2:13:14
  I mean, that scene towards the end of family, but is one of the
• 2:13:17
  very best tenant scenes. And it and it is because he had
• 2:13:21
  no other resort to do it. And we've seen him go really
• 2:13:24
  dark. I just want Doctor Who to do
• 2:13:26
  that a bit more. And Invisible Enemy weirdly does
• 2:13:30
  it towards the end. But I think, yeah, I think
• 2:13:33
  that's the best of season because it's so imaginative and
• 2:13:36
  and we haven't had anything like this in this season or loads and
• 2:13:41
  loads of seasons before. I can't think of anything that's
• 2:13:46
  this explorative and Spacey and fun for years.
• 2:13:49
  It's a mission statement, isn't it?
• 2:13:51
  The Invisible Enemy after horror Fang Rock, which is.
• 2:13:55
  Touching on Hinchcliff, this is we're going to do something.
• 2:13:57
  Lighter, because that's what we've been.
• 2:13:59
  Told to do, but we're also going to play with similar themes and
• 2:14:02
  we're just going to get out there.
• 2:14:03
  We're going to get out there to unusual exotic places wherever
• 2:14:07
  we can fucking realize it or not.
• 2:14:09
  Yeah, and and like next year you get the Pirate Planet, which is
• 2:14:12
  similarish. In it in a way.
• 2:14:14
  Well, I love the hover car and the fast escalators and all that
• 2:14:17
  from that. And that feels sort of our base.
• 2:14:20
  But this is proper. You know, Moffett hops about in
• 2:14:23
  time quite a lot. We don't have many stories to
• 2:14:25
  hop about in pure space, and this does do that.
• 2:14:30
  And that's really exciting. So yeah, definitely free for me.
• 2:14:32
  Oh, I love that you love this one.
• 2:14:35
  That was so unexpected. It's brilliant.
• 2:14:40
  So it's going through, but Paul? What are your thoughts?
• 2:14:43
  I want to try a thought experiment.
• 2:14:46
  OK. Imagine.
• 2:14:48
  Invisible enemy. Everything.
• 2:14:50
  That's been said about it. I want you to imagine it without
• 2:14:53
  canine now. It would.
• 2:14:58
  It would. Still be great.
• 2:14:59
  It would still be great. Now it's the season. 13 story.
• 2:15:05
  Everything. You said at the start site.
• 2:15:08
  It is arc in space. Because you've.
• 2:15:10
  Got an invasive infective threat in the solar system that attacks
• 2:15:17
  the doctor and causes physical transformation.
• 2:15:20
  It's in a clinical setting. In a clinical setting, the hands
• 2:15:25
  I. Find that kind of bird.
• 2:15:26
  Fish effect on Tom Baker's face really quite disturbing and I
• 2:15:30
  find the prawns, when the prawn comes out initially when it's
• 2:15:35
  emerging into that trans mat type thing, I find it really
• 2:15:40
  disturbing. Once it's been walked out like a
• 2:15:43
  maiden aunt on the piss being taken down to rust pins and to
• 2:15:47
  dry out, it loses that effect but it's disgusting.
• 2:15:51
  Belly really chuckled me. It's got a kind of texture to it
• 2:15:55
  and a fleshiness. And I don't like.
• 2:15:57
  It and so in a weird way this season because you use your way
• 2:16:03
  of, you know, horror Fang rock if only image of the dog came
• 2:16:07
  straight after it. There's your two Hinchcliffe
• 2:16:09
  hangovers and you get into this because it's space opera and it
• 2:16:13
  is and it's everything everyone said it's about spaceships.
• 2:16:16
  It's great model work. You know, there's a sense of,
• 2:16:21
  but here's the future, and of course, it's our first time we
• 2:16:23
  get the year 5000 really where we visit it.
• 2:16:25
  We've had it with talents when Triang Moffett's going to
• 2:16:28
  fetishize it as the great jumping off point.
• 2:16:30
  They're going to get into this paradox around Leela.
• 2:16:32
  But there's still this sense of this is the year of space opera.
• 2:16:36
  Here's Doctor Who just ahead of the game because canine's there,
• 2:16:40
  as you said about the robot. I mean, you could track him back
• 2:16:42
  to silent Runnings in 72 with cute robot.
• 2:16:46
  Williams is really looking ahead.
• 2:16:47
  And I think it's quite significant on the documentary
• 2:16:50
  where they talk about all the letters they start getting from
• 2:16:52
  children, how much they love canine.
• 2:16:55
  It's absolutely it's it's a it's a useful C3PO is what canine is
• 2:16:59
  here. But he kind of unbalances what
• 2:17:02
  we've got in this story because it becomes the introduction.
• 2:17:07
  Whereas if he's just a one off or he's not in it, it's much
• 2:17:10
  closer to what we've had previously.
• 2:17:12
  And I think Luke is right, the Prawn is no worse than some of
• 2:17:15
  the other ship monsters which we've seen here.
• 2:17:17
  But people are unkind to this because it looks shoddy.
• 2:17:21
  But it's a rush production because it's not meant to be the
• 2:17:23
  first thing filmed. They have to film it because of
• 2:17:26
  the fallout from horror Fang Rock.
• 2:17:28
  So what you get here is something really, really
• 2:17:30
  interesting that has got similar similarities to Arc in Space.
• 2:17:35
  It's kind of touching on Face of Evil as well because it's about
• 2:17:38
  the Doctor's psyche, but we literally go into the Doctor in
• 2:17:41
  Myles and would make the point that it's the ultimate version
• 2:17:44
  of possession that we've seen with Hinchcliffe and Holmes, and
• 2:17:47
  the Doctor is the ultimate example of that.
• 2:17:49
  Joe's absolutely right. That last shot at the end of
• 2:17:51
  Episode 1 where he's stalking leader and he's got the gun is a
• 2:17:54
  phenomenal moment. Baker's performance is pretty
• 2:17:57
  good as well. When he's struggling against it.
• 2:17:59
  I think he needs some kudos there as well.
• 2:18:01
  I think I think it's really, really good.
• 2:18:02
  It kind of collapses, I think towards the end.
• 2:18:05
  I think there's a kind of a sense of how are we going to end
• 2:18:08
  this? I think the the egg things in on
• 2:18:12
  Titan base are disgusting and it's really, really well done.
• 2:18:14
  And of course it's the first time this season that we're
• 2:18:16
  going to go full into Quaker Mass.
• 2:18:18
  Here is Quaker Mass two contact has been made is of course
• 2:18:21
  contact established from the Quaker Mass experiment, the idea
• 2:18:23
  of space being dangerous and threatening and you can bring
• 2:18:27
  something back and another Quaker Mass way.
• 2:18:30
  It's been meant to be the first episode in Quaker Mass, isn't
• 2:18:32
  it? Bring something back.
• 2:18:33
  It's all come into play here. I don't think it's perfect, but
• 2:18:37
  I think it's really, really good and it it it's fun and dark at
• 2:18:41
  the same time. They don't remove the darkness.
• 2:18:44
  Like this idea to tone it down and kind of turn it into like
• 2:18:47
  comedy is wrong. What Williams and Reed are good
• 2:18:50
  at is the suggestion of darkness.
• 2:18:53
  You're going to certainly get that in Sun Makers.
• 2:18:55
  You kind of get it there in in Underworld, but it's lost
• 2:19:00
  because of the way they're having to film it.
• 2:19:02
  It's certainly there in image of Fendall, and it's there in
• 2:19:05
  Invasion of Time as well. Yeah, here it is.
• 2:19:07
  The Doctor can't be trusted the second time this season.
• 2:19:10
  Can we trust the Doctor and we've Invasion of Time?
• 2:19:13
  There's not the excuse you have here is that he's been infected.
• 2:19:15
  But if if the Doctor can be infected, then anyone can be
• 2:19:18
  affected. And of course, Leela saves the
• 2:19:20
  day. You know, Jameson actually walks
• 2:19:22
  away with this. So yeah, definitely keep it.
• 2:19:25
  It is dark, but I do think there is a tangible.
• 2:19:29
  Difference between this and what was going on in Thursday?
• 2:19:32
  Oh, no, absolutely. That's the that's the point I'm
• 2:19:34
  making, that they're able to balance the light and the dark.
• 2:19:36
  In a way that they kind of can't do in 14.
• 2:19:38
  For much of 14, it's like it's skipping, you know?
• 2:19:41
  It's like it's skipping from scene to scene in a way that.
• 2:19:43
  A lot of 13, As good as it is, it is sort of really leading
• 2:19:48
  inside gothic horror words. This just has a a deft lightness
• 2:19:51
  of touch to it that makes it very watchable.
• 2:19:54
  Yeah, people are wrong. They're very wrong about this.
• 2:19:58
  Season, they're very. Wrong about this season.
• 2:20:00
  Because all they're looking at is a cracking a wall or like how
• 2:20:04
  the model works for the BL Foundation doesn't work.
• 2:20:07
  But actually with the new effects on the Blu-ray, suddenly
• 2:20:13
  we've got something that that's very, very pertinent to us
• 2:20:15
  because. What's that attack?
• 2:20:16
  Other than like a suicide mission by zealots, change
• 2:20:21
  everyone to convert everyone. It's become very, very.
• 2:20:24
  Contemporary. In a way it didn't maybe
• 2:20:26
  necessarily in 77. So I think it works differently
• 2:20:29
  for us than it did in 77 and I think we can appreciate it more
• 2:20:31
  now because we're not caught up in it doesn't look like Star
• 2:20:35
  Wars because grades. That's grateful.
• 2:20:37
  That's Great's point of comparison.
• 2:20:39
  In 8485, it doesn't look like Star Wars.
• 2:20:41
  It didn't look like stories in 1977, but your audience was
• 2:20:44
  still there. There's something on the fucking
• 2:20:46
  budget of Star Wars and it might look like.
• 2:20:49
  It does if it's one of it does have the most baffling special
• 2:20:52
  feature of all time on any DVD, which is where they drag in a
• 2:20:57
  Doctor Who fan to watch The Invisible Enemy and some rando,
• 2:21:02
  a girl who's not a Doctor Who fan, and she just sits there
• 2:21:06
  going, oh, what's that? Oh, how fucking ridiculous.
• 2:21:08
  Oh, this is the worst thing I've ever seen.
• 2:21:09
  And he watches it kind of embarrassed because she's there.
• 2:21:12
  And I'm like, who is supposed to be enjoying this?
• 2:21:15
  What is the point of this experiment?
• 2:21:17
  That sounds great. I must have seen it.
• 2:21:20
  Is it on like? Like a white room.
• 2:21:23
  Like a white. Yeah, yeah, I've seen it so
• 2:21:26
  weird anyway. So the invisible.
• 2:21:31
  Enemy is. Going through which just.
• 2:21:33
  Leaves us with. Two stories.
• 2:21:35
  Ohh, the image of the Fender and the sun makers.
• 2:21:39
  And before we thanks Luke. Yes.
• 2:21:45
  Before we get to the last two stories.
• 2:21:47
  Let's have a. Look at the last round of
• 2:21:50
  comments of our wonderful listeners.
• 2:21:52
  I've got your back even though you've.
• 2:21:54
  Not got mine. Well, I think you're on the
• 2:21:58
  tone, if I'm honest. You've been very positive the
• 2:22:00
  last few stories. OK, I'll kick us off.
• 2:22:05
  Jason Thompson there. Can't be many seasons that end
• 2:22:09
  on such a different tone than they started.
• 2:22:12
  So a transitional season for sure, but has some wonderful
• 2:22:15
  stuff. Tom and Louise may not have had
• 2:22:18
  the best relationship, but they sparkle together on screen.
• 2:22:23
  Kevin Bianco, strap yourselves in.
• 2:22:25
  There's there's, there's a doozy.
• 2:22:27
  Here at the end of this one, a mixed bag.
• 2:22:30
  Bang rock good Fendall also. Williams was given a hospital
• 2:22:34
  pass from Hinchcliffe, who blew his budgetary load before
• 2:22:36
  handing over the reins. Also, I don't like the character
• 2:22:39
  of Leela. Joe.
• 2:22:46
  Short, I'm not sure I can. Start this very strong season.
• 2:22:51
  Fan Grok is one of the best stories ever.
• 2:22:54
  You said it. Now I'm going to take out his.
• 2:22:58
  Commentary from the start on fabric and just insert.
• 2:23:01
  That bit, yeah, full stop, K9. Is a star from the off and thank
• 2:23:08
  God the. Taxman pissed off Robert Holmes.
• 2:23:11
  Leela should have started a home for stray dogs, robot or
• 2:23:14
  otherwise, instead of an awful exit.
• 2:23:20
  David Gillespie Pratt. Says the dawn of the Second Age,
• 2:23:23
  Tom Baker. A mixed bag, but with a lot of
• 2:23:26
  imagination, wit, and creativity Through a lot of that creative
• 2:23:30
  though. A lot of that creativity was
• 2:23:33
  headache inducing, wrangling with every issue imaginable just
• 2:23:36
  to get something on screen. Can I just ask, was that a
• 2:23:39
  Babylon 5 reference at the start?
• 2:23:41
  Of that comment, it sounded like it to me.
• 2:23:43
  It did, didn't. It was the dawn of the second.
• 2:23:46
  Age of Tom Baker, Paul Cresser says.
• 2:23:51
  Paul season. 15 it. Gives us more imagination and
• 2:23:55
  variety than we've seen in years, but it's kneecap by the
• 2:23:58
  raging inflation of the time. Me and the second-half have to
• 2:24:01
  be made for about £3.50 and unfortunately it shows.
• 2:24:07
  Ian Banks says not as good as 14.
• 2:24:09
  But it has so much energy. And visit with ideas.
• 2:24:12
  It's smart, clever and fun and it changed me from a fan to a
• 2:24:16
  fanatic. Runs out of steam towards the
• 2:24:18
  end, but so do many other seasons.
• 2:24:22
  Dan Hollingsworth. Great fun despite.
• 2:24:25
  The OD of the budget is screwed effects.
• 2:24:28
  Tom and Louise are one of the best Doctor companion pairings
• 2:24:31
  and the tin dog is quite sweet at this.
• 2:24:33
  At this stage, the best stories have strong previous ear vibes.
• 2:24:41
  With. Gothic horror, Charlie Barnes
• 2:24:44
  writes Hinchcliffe was always going to be.
• 2:24:46
  A tough act to follow. And Holmes leaves the script
• 2:24:49
  editor. Stories without him are rubbish.
• 2:24:52
  Coincidence. I think not.
• 2:24:54
  Tom and Louise plus the introduction of canine.
• 2:24:57
  But Louise deserved a better exit.
• 2:25:00
  Bebo, Pete says. As an adolescent sci-fi.
• 2:25:06
  Fan I left all. No.
• 2:25:13
  I want you to read out a whole book to me, you know?
• 2:25:16
  Pete says as an adolescent sci-fi fan, I left star.
• 2:25:20
  Wars for Doctor Who before the. Third film came out, I felt
• 2:25:24
  instinctively that character and ingenuity on any budget out
• 2:25:28
  shown operatically triggered drama on a big budget, startling
• 2:25:33
  notions and committed performance yield the most
• 2:25:35
  special of effect. So yeah, keep them all.
• 2:25:39
  That's the comment of the episode.
• 2:25:43
  Well done people, Pete. John Arnold.
• 2:25:47
  With Williams parachuting late and two script.
• 2:25:49
  Editors, it's. All a bit directionless, varying
• 2:25:53
  from the sublime to the tedious after within the same scene.
• 2:25:56
  Louise Jameson's total commitment to her role means
• 2:25:59
  there's something to redeem every story though.
• 2:26:02
  And finally, Dave Jarve, a very polarized.
• 2:26:06
  Season. It has perhaps my joint favorite
• 2:26:08
  4th Doctor story, Van Grok, and my least Underworld, but for all
• 2:26:14
  the issues, it's an imaginative run that rails against the
• 2:26:17
  budgetary constraints. So I feel like I'm supporting 50
• 2:26:22
  that's it's going through the last two especially.
• 2:26:26
  I sort of want to. Watch both Invasion of Time.
• 2:26:29
  And invisible enemy right now. I have wanted to turn your head
• 2:26:32
  for years. I'm glad we're finally there so.
• 2:26:38
  As I said earlier, we final stories.
• 2:26:41
  Right, I'm going to jump in. I'm going to jump in with.
• 2:26:45
  Fandar because I want to see Paul talkers talk us through the
• 2:26:50
  sun makers. I haven't got much to say about
• 2:26:54
  Fandar, really, but you know what?
• 2:26:58
  Because I'm in a good mood, I'm going, I'm going to push for us
• 2:27:01
  to save it, yes. And this is one that's took.
• 2:27:06
  Years to come round to I. Definitely didn't like it when I
• 2:27:09
  was younger and it's sort of grown me.
• 2:27:14
  I think unlike the other gothicy revived ones from 1314 and
• 2:27:19
  Fangrock, this one's more disorientating and strange and
• 2:27:25
  it just has a weird atmosphere and it's a bit unset.
• 2:27:29
  It's very talky, you know, I think all the other gothic
• 2:27:32
  horror things have big moments where people are possessed or
• 2:27:35
  horrible things happen, or this horror, this one is just very,
• 2:27:38
  very talky. But then things happen in the
• 2:27:40
  weird, like that part one cliffhanger where you've not got
• 2:27:44
  a clue what's going on. But it's creepy and it's weird.
• 2:27:48
  And you would definitely TuneIn next week to see what was
• 2:27:50
  happening with atmosphere, isn't it?
• 2:27:52
  There's all the Toms can't move. Yeah, that's.
• 2:27:55
  The other cliffhanger where he's stuck in the fog, frozen to.
• 2:27:58
  The spot and then a random shotgun goes off that's totally
• 2:28:01
  disconnected to the scene and yourself either the doctor
• 2:28:06
  putting his hand on a skull and yelling out on in pain.
• 2:28:09
  But we don't know why we don't know what's causing that.
• 2:28:13
  It's yeah Tang rock is just this traditional boring like monster
• 2:28:23
  kills people. This is just odds.
• 2:28:25
  This is odd and weird and you don't know where it's going and
• 2:28:30
  I think it is a pity we lost Chris Boucher, He went.
• 2:28:32
  On to Blake 7, right? I could definitely see a sort of
• 2:28:38
  horror ish key to time story the next season by Chris Boucher
• 2:28:44
  that we probably could do with instead of like crawl.
• 2:28:47
  As much as I love crawl, I do love crawl.
• 2:28:50
  But like or maybe even on it, they give Chris Boucher did the
• 2:28:53
  season finale. I feel like that was really, I
• 2:28:56
  think they would have done a good turn on Stones of Blood and
• 2:28:58
  I love Stones of Blood, but he would.
• 2:29:00
  Have written a much scarier version of that story.
• 2:29:02
  Yeah, you definitely get a different element of the Gothic.
• 2:29:06
  Vibe from So Yeah part what my first point just oddness second
• 2:29:11
  one funny it's actually funny I had to forget how funny it is
• 2:29:15
  but the as I started start the podcast with the bit when the
• 2:29:19
  Doctor steps out the TARDIS and says good morning ladies to all
• 2:29:22
  the cows does crack me up and I always forget that there's cows
• 2:29:26
  in it I always. Forget the lands.
• 2:29:27
  Of the cow feel, the doctor often, the school of Jelly baby.
• 2:29:32
  Nice bit of easy humor. And I've got a quote here where
• 2:29:36
  he says there's a corpse by the woods and then they go, what
• 2:29:39
  sort of corpse? He goes a dead one.
• 2:29:41
  What other sort isn't it? I fucking love that guy.
• 2:29:44
  I love him. Adam Goldbridge.
• 2:29:46
  Yeah, like he's, he's charismatic.
• 2:29:50
  Right. He really.
• 2:29:51
  And then I looked you off and he doesn't really appear in many
• 2:29:54
  things. He's absolutely the romantic
• 2:29:57
  hero of this story, though, isn't it?
• 2:29:59
  Yeah. Yeah, so it is funny.
• 2:30:02
  There's loads of examples. And then Fendal itself is the
• 2:30:07
  Third Point. I mean, again, it sort of sort
• 2:30:10
  of goes into just the oddness thing, but I think it's got an.
• 2:30:13
  Engaging back story. And one where you don't really
• 2:30:16
  know what it is. It's got strong iconography in
• 2:30:19
  the skull and the Golden Lady and just yeah, strong images,
• 2:30:25
  even if the Fender lanes are a bit a bit weak.
• 2:30:27
  And even weaker is the way the the destroyed just by some salt.
• 2:30:34
  I know they're going for the slug thing, but no crap.
• 2:30:39
  But it's the back story. The fact that the back story,
• 2:30:42
  then I can iconography like there's a 5th planet and then it
• 2:30:46
  got destroyed into the asteroid belt by the Time Lords.
• 2:30:49
  That's better mythology than anything in the world and the
• 2:30:53
  whole evolution thing. And then you get, you get a
• 2:30:57
  thing that it's so scary that a person wants to kill himself,
• 2:31:02
  which is a great moment. And yet it all ends and it all
• 2:31:05
  finishes and I still don't feel like I know anything about it or
• 2:31:08
  if it's even destroyed or if it's still out there.
• 2:31:11
  But it is out there. It is out there because Nick
• 2:31:13
  Briggs brings it back in a Lucy Miller boxer.
• 2:31:17
  That's horror, right? When it's just out of your
• 2:31:19
  reach. It's intangible.
• 2:31:20
  And you know, it's horrific and terrible things are happening.
• 2:31:23
  You still don't quite get it. Yeah, and I do.
• 2:31:26
  I do get people that don't like this one.
• 2:31:28
  To be fair, because I've. I've been there and maybe it's
• 2:31:32
  just warmed on me over time because.
• 2:31:34
  Because I've got into it and thought I'm not too sure.
• 2:31:37
  And then it's actually charmed me.
• 2:31:39
  Oh, and Neela's outfit suddenly become very, very, even more
• 2:31:42
  sexier than it was before. So yeah, I.
• 2:31:48
  Keep this one. It's not.
• 2:31:49
  I don't think it's a. It's not my favorite favorite,
• 2:31:52
  but I'd keep it. I sometimes forget how very
• 2:31:55
  heterosexual you are, you know I'm.
• 2:31:58
  Surprisingly, given how you said Beble Pete earlier.
• 2:32:02
  Joe, should we go over to the comments?
• 2:32:04
  Oh yes. Please.
• 2:32:06
  OK. So Steve Kay says worth it for.
• 2:32:08
  Dennis Lil's accent. One event from Looking Radiant
• 2:32:11
  and Daphne Heard's quite wonderful performance here that
• 2:32:15
  the way to make a fruitcake. Pete Lambert says special
• 2:32:20
  mention for the one of the best episode ones but the story tales
• 2:32:23
  off. Having your climactic episode
• 2:32:25
  with an entity that doesn't speak is original but deprizer
• 2:32:28
  of a proper showdown. She becomes a lethal obstacle
• 2:32:31
  rather than an evil opponent. That's why it's great, Pete,
• 2:32:36
  Jason Thompson says. I came to it having heard it's a
• 2:32:39
  superb. Slice of gothic horror but it
• 2:32:41
  failed to engage me. Ma Tyler is great and the
• 2:32:44
  doctors, I'm sorry as he hands the gun to style to shoot
• 2:32:47
  himself is as dark as anything the show has done.
• 2:32:50
  James Lark says it's the best of the season.
• 2:32:53
  Terrific location. Filming an unsettling tower, one
• 2:32:56
  in places genuinely horrific, rich with the kind of dialogue
• 2:33:00
  and characters that Chris Boucher would was so gifted at
• 2:33:02
  creating Doctor Who's first foray into folk horror, at least
• 2:33:06
  until last year. I think that was the finest,
• 2:33:10
  right? Oh.
• 2:33:11
  Yeah, sorry. I think he's talking about 70.
• 2:33:13
  Three yards here, isn't it? Yes.
• 2:33:16
  Fraser, Gregory. What could he possibly?
• 2:33:18
  Say about this, it's a stunning. Slice of folk horror.
• 2:33:21
  This could have come straight in from the pen of Nigel Neal.
• 2:33:24
  Instead it's another Chris Boucher classic, with characters
• 2:33:27
  and dialogues that are just a delight to spend time with.
• 2:33:30
  An all time classic. The somewhat more reasonable
• 2:33:34
  David Gillespie. Pratt says it starts so.
• 2:33:37
  Well, it's another atmospheric tale and some of the direction
• 2:33:40
  is superb, but the plot falls apart in the second-half.
• 2:33:43
  However, Ma Tyler saves it from being a total misfire.
• 2:33:48
  Ian Banks says Boucher's worst script for the.
• 2:33:51
  Show. Is still an absolute belter
• 2:33:54
  Horror, parapsychology, a big house and ancient astronauts
• 2:33:58
  make it the most 70s TV sci-fi story that ever was.
• 2:34:02
  He's not wrong, is he? James Edwin Bennett says a
• 2:34:06
  brilliant. 3 parter needlessly padded out to four.
• 2:34:09
  The Fendale prop always impresses me and a silent horror
• 2:34:12
  that you can't reason with is chilling.
• 2:34:14
  But too much padding and a huge pot plot hole.
• 2:34:17
  So bin James, how could you bin that after saying all of that?
• 2:34:21
  Anyway, all done says it's more Hinchcliffe hangovers.
• 2:34:26
  It's got great atmosphere. Great actors night filming Moody
• 2:34:29
  exterior shots. So why is it so fucking dull?
• 2:34:33
  Some very undoctor like moment with the Doctor handing a gun to
• 2:34:36
  someone so they can shoot themselves, Jola Wellin says.
• 2:34:39
  It's one of the darkest Doctor Who's, one of the most iconic.
• 2:34:42
  Images with wonder as the Fen doll.
• 2:34:45
  Glad I've seen quite a mass so I get where it came from.
• 2:34:48
  I'd say the gun handing the gun over.
• 2:34:50
  That's no different to Peter Capaldi.
• 2:34:51
  Handing the guy that pill. Exactly.
• 2:34:54
  And into the Dolly. I mean, he has he.
• 2:34:58
  He he shoots. The person himself.
• 2:35:01
  At the end of the season. And he had no issue with that,
• 2:35:06
  Anthony Carroll says, gripping an.
• 2:35:08
  Atmospheric and one of the grimmest.
• 2:35:10
  Deaths Daniel Knight, another favorite, even though the Doctor
• 2:35:13
  and Leila go on a forced errand to.
• 2:35:14
  Pad it out. The script is great fun.
• 2:35:16
  Your head would have to zip up the back not to enjoy some of
• 2:35:19
  Chris Boucher's best lines. Doctor Who's loss was Blake 7's
• 2:35:22
  game, and that's absolutely true, Dan Hollingsworth says An
• 2:35:26
  excellent guest cast. Just for Daphne heard Dennis
• 2:35:29
  Lilland wunderfem from a great and Scott Frederick's is
• 2:35:32
  mesmerizing. The silly monster can't ruin
• 2:35:35
  this, but Michael Storm Best of the season.
• 2:35:37
  A weird mix of Hinchcliffe and the per wee era, but it's.
• 2:35:40
  Stretched with atmosphere and as far more interesting monster
• 2:35:43
  than the usual occult sci-fi crossover tropes.
• 2:35:45
  Strong supporting cast. Luxin's Jenkins says Boucher
• 2:35:49
  wrote 3 fucking bangers. And I'd have hired him to write
• 2:35:52
  for the show every season. A great story, creepy, with
• 2:35:55
  awesome imagery. And granny.
• 2:35:59
  Awesome imagery and granny. Yeah.
• 2:36:02
  OK, Jim, go. I'll ask him.
• 2:36:05
  About that, he's got a thing about men and.
• 2:36:07
  Horses as well, but I won't go into.
• 2:36:09
  That Jim Allenby might not be up there with the greats, but it's
• 2:36:12
  got bags of atmosphere. Wanda Ventum is creepy as the
• 2:36:15
  vendor core, and I like the design of the creatures, Doctor
• 2:36:19
  Sinister says. The sheer occult delight, that
• 2:36:22
  is. The Fendale puts it up there
• 2:36:24
  with the ballsy suicide scene. As hardcore as the show got.
• 2:36:27
  Nearly there, folks. Paul Smyer Not a favorite.
• 2:36:30
  Yes, it has some good Hammer Horror vibes.
• 2:36:32
  However, the Doctor and leader are hardly in it.
• 2:36:34
  Dennis Lille's dreadful accent is particularly poor.
• 2:36:38
  Spider Man 72 says another hit. Creepy.
• 2:36:40
  Atmospheric. And the.
• 2:36:42
  Monster is a great who design. And finally, this was the most
• 2:36:46
  comments we had for any story, Gareth.
• 2:36:48
  Bowley says Doll kudos for an appearance by Corrie's Don
• 2:36:53
  Brennan, but that's all I remember of this one.
• 2:36:56
  Oh, well, that's thoroughly interesting, isn't it?
• 2:36:59
  So. Let's go over.
• 2:37:01
  To Paul, What do you make of this one, Paul?
• 2:37:04
  I mean, Balcher wasn't going to come back because Tom Baker
• 2:37:07
  pissed him off so badly. In that read through it really
• 2:37:09
  really hurt his feelings. Baker's a proper Dick by all
• 2:37:13
  accounts in that. And of course then Holmes is
• 2:37:16
  tapped to do Blake 7. He says no a recommends Balcher.
• 2:37:20
  So Balcher is a wave for the wind.
• 2:37:21
  But of course, by turning that down, Molesworth, in his
• 2:37:25
  biography of Holmes, claims that that's where the story comes
• 2:37:28
  from, that that there was something wrong with Holmes,
• 2:37:30
  that the Doctor Who team were talking him down.
• 2:37:33
  But Belcher thinks it's because he turned down Blake 7 and so
• 2:37:36
  then the BBC thought he was burnt out.
• 2:37:38
  So what would come after This is interesting, but it probably
• 2:37:41
  isn't going to be Belcher Ryan for Doctor Who, because Baker's
• 2:37:45
  really, really annoyed him. I mean, what's good about it?
• 2:37:50
  The first. Episode the Climates the.
• 2:37:52
  First episode is absolutely phenomenal.
• 2:37:55
  That cliffhanger is one of the best in the show's history.
• 2:37:58
  The use of sound, Bacon stuck to the ground with terror, the
• 2:38:04
  close up on the gun as it turns around, you think it's shot
• 2:38:06
  leader. He's absolutely phenomenal.
• 2:38:08
  The second and third aren't far off at either Baker being caught
• 2:38:11
  with the skull and then the image of the fend, the the
• 2:38:14
  defend doll appearing in front behind one deventment and and
• 2:38:17
  the sound again, the soundscape is is is phenomenal in in this
• 2:38:22
  Martha Tyler, as everyone said, is is great.
• 2:38:24
  It just stays this side of being too much.
• 2:38:30
  Not camp, but there's a sense in which you could tip over into
• 2:38:33
  kind of a sitcom and mad old woman.
• 2:38:36
  In fact, she's the custodian of like hidden knowledge.
• 2:38:40
  But of course, because it's Doctor Who, you can't do that.
• 2:38:42
  And so it's living near the the the the time vent, whatever the
• 2:38:46
  hell it is in the woods. It's it's like, who's the White
• 2:38:51
  Witch and the demons? Miss Hawthorn?
• 2:38:53
  Olive Hawthorn. Yeah.
• 2:38:54
  Well, this is this is Miss Hawthorn done properly.
• 2:38:57
  This is Miss Hawthorn. And she's not pissed up old
• 2:39:01
  Aiden maiden aunt. Who missed the gig as.
• 2:39:03
  Miss Marple's best mate. This is it done properly.
• 2:39:06
  Lucy McCall, don't listen. Demons is the most overrated.
• 2:39:11
  Doctor Who of the 1970s. Followed.
• 2:39:13
  By the most overrated Doctor Who of the 1960s is tomb of the
• 2:39:18
  Cybermen and the most overrated Doctor Who of the 1980s is
• 2:39:20
  enlightenment. There, that's done.
• 2:39:22
  That's from on high like this is wow coming soon from strictly
• 2:39:26
  come hamster season 8. Featuring Paul Quinn, the best
• 2:39:32
  story in season 8 is Mind of Evil.
• 2:39:34
  The second best story in Bollocks.
• 2:39:36
  Is calling his face absolutely What's the what's the best story
• 2:39:42
  I've seen? Lately, the Divas.
• 2:39:45
  Fucking love the team. Sorry, why?
• 2:39:47
  I need to the. Simon, but I'm with you on
• 2:39:49
  enlightenment. That thing is.
• 2:39:50
  Shit, they're having a lovely time in the pub.
• 2:39:53
  It's just shame the rest of us can't have the.
• 2:39:55
  Fun with them and one of the major issues when when it was
• 2:39:58
  repeated in 92 and like normal people watching Doctor Who then
• 2:40:02
  Bach appeared on the screen and my mate spent a month doing
• 2:40:05
  impressions of Bach because he's so shit.
• 2:40:08
  Do you know what my I was scared of Bach.
• 2:40:10
  I showed my my ghost light. And he was so.
• 2:40:14
  Gripped by the 1st 2 episodes and then spent the next two
• 2:40:18
  decades of my life going look at these microbes.
• 2:40:22
  You know? I was like, oh.
• 2:40:24
  God, he's a he's a bollocks. Joe, you should kick him to the.
• 2:40:26
  Curb, he doesn't. Understand what's going on.
• 2:40:27
  That's very. Handsome though Dennis Lill,
• 2:40:30
  Dennis Lille is incapable. Of a bad performance even.
• 2:40:33
  When he's just been a cartoonist in the background in Batman,
• 2:40:36
  when he's there in working with Alexander Knott, he's great in
• 2:40:39
  this, phenomenal in this. He's absolutely phenomenal.
• 2:40:43
  And yet. I'm still going to bin it.
• 2:40:50
  Poor Quest and I like last week when my son was quizzing me up
• 2:40:53
  because my my my eldest. Son, my middle child was really
• 2:40:56
  into Doctor Who and because he like he he was obsessively
• 2:40:59
  writes things down. So he's got all permutations how
• 2:41:02
  you can record various episodes of Doctor Who.
• 2:41:04
  But I said, have you got the directors?
• 2:41:05
  And he said haven't done that. I said you're listen useless.
• 2:41:07
  Then I need to see who the directors are for this season
• 2:41:10
  anyway. So what are you doing to that
• 2:41:12
  child, for God's sake? This is the This is the boy who
• 2:41:17
  happily watched the proper. Version of the War games.
• 2:41:20
  And then watched the new shit version of the war games.
• 2:41:24
  Boy was it shit. Got a feeling you know your son
• 2:41:27
  May? Become the new David J Howell
• 2:41:28
  stroke. Howell.
• 2:41:29
  Stammers Walker this is the boy quite happily sat there, and he
• 2:41:33
  watched Power of the. Daleks.
• 2:41:35
  Having. Watched 10th Planet before as
• 2:41:38
  well, so he's doing it in order as well and he's what's suitable
• 2:41:41
  for series 15 daddy. So he will be watching some of
• 2:41:43
  this one lad. I digress and and it is true, I
• 2:41:47
  did when I when I. Extended it to my top 10.
• 2:41:49
  Baker, I did put image in the Fen dial in there, but now I'm
• 2:41:51
  being contrary and bin it for a variety of reasons.
• 2:41:55
  Was it Fraser Gregory on the comments said about Nigel Neil?
• 2:41:58
  Yes, this is the problem because Neil is back in fashion.
• 2:42:03
  At. This point in time he's fallen
• 2:42:05
  out of the BBC because they won't make quite a Mass 4, which
• 2:42:09
  is why when the 4th Quaker Mass turns up in 79 it looks really
• 2:42:12
  out of date. The only bit of it that looks
• 2:42:14
  contemporary is the stuff about North Sea oil, because it's kind
• 2:42:17
  of Neil complaining about the hippie movement.
• 2:42:19
  So it's essentially like them two twats, you write the
• 2:42:22
  dominators who don't like hippies either, all into kind of
• 2:42:25
  clunking militarism. Well, them two pricks called
• 2:42:27
  Henry Lincoln and Henry Lincoln and Mervin Hazeman.
• 2:42:31
  Them two bollocks's. We'll come on to them in a
• 2:42:32
  minute. Always buck buckering.
• 2:42:35
  Right now you're going after the Dominators.
• 2:42:37
  Oh, fuck that. The Dominators.
• 2:42:40
  I mean, that's. More weird sex aid there with
• 2:42:43
  the heads on the quarks if you're really into pain.
• 2:42:47
  I do think I've made that point before.
• 2:42:48
  Anyway, come on, let us go and live in.
• 2:42:51
  Our sex spaceship. I would watch that soap, Paul.
• 2:42:56
  I would watch that gay soap. Getting in there someone or
• 2:43:01
  someone or commissioning. Neil's back in fashion because
• 2:43:04
  he's gone. To ATV and he's found a producer
• 2:43:06
  can he work with and he produces Moran, which is a phenomenal
• 2:43:09
  piece of folk horror. And it's Neil doing that thing
• 2:43:11
  that he does where he won't explain a folklore element.
• 2:43:16
  So if you think about Quake Mess and the Pit, he explains where
• 2:43:20
  the belief in the devil comes from.
• 2:43:22
  And then of course they just lift it wholesale for the demons
• 2:43:24
  again demonstrating how shit the demons is that it's on this he
• 2:43:29
  done does Muran, which is awesome.
• 2:43:31
  And if people haven't seen Muran, it's somewhere on
• 2:43:34
  YouTube. It's definitely I think on
• 2:43:36
  beasts DVD. And then beast comes out in 76,
• 2:43:40
  which again has got baby on it, which as we all know is the most
• 2:43:43
  important piece of fantasy folk horror for the new who writers
• 2:43:46
  because they all watched it and they already liked it and it is
• 2:43:48
  creepy as fuck. But actually it's far more
• 2:43:51
  interesting in its portrait of a marriage that's collapsing and
• 2:43:55
  concerns around miscarriage, because he threads miscarriage
• 2:43:57
  all the way through that script. It's an amazing script.
• 2:44:01
  And after Barty's party, which of course is the middle class
• 2:44:04
  couple again, whose marriage is in trouble, And then the rats
• 2:44:06
  come and eat them alive at the end of it.
• 2:44:08
  Sorry, spoilers there. You can edit that joke, can't
• 2:44:10
  you? Because I've lost my fucking.
• 2:44:12
  No, it's all going in. But the stone tape is here.
• 2:44:16
  Who? Mentioned the haunted House, of
• 2:44:17
  course it's the. Fucking stone tape.
• 2:44:19
  Even Thea Ransom looks like Jane Asher in The Stone Tape, and she
• 2:44:23
  ends up as the sacrificial victim as well.
• 2:44:25
  The Road, the last bit that that Gay has did a reconstruction of
• 2:44:29
  about the ghostly voices in the wood.
• 2:44:31
  But it's not ghosts in the past, it's ghosts in the future.
• 2:44:33
  This is all just reheated. Neil Balsher can do better than
• 2:44:37
  this, and he probably should. It's awesome, but it's an
• 2:44:42
  episode. Too long.
• 2:44:43
  That whole trip let's go off to the 5th planet.
• 2:44:45
  Fuck, it's not there anymore because now now of course we get
• 2:44:49
  Luke's point here is more Time Lord pathology, which of course
• 2:44:52
  is going to be picked up when they bring the Fendale back
• 2:44:54
  What's what's the Doctor Who? But taking the planet 5 isn't
• 2:44:57
  it? Which is like a really strange
• 2:44:59
  book and it it. Bothered me.
• 2:45:01
  Because I didn't know why I didn't like it, because I like
• 2:45:03
  this. But it comes down to, I think
• 2:45:05
  the fact that the Fendale don't speak is part of the issue.
• 2:45:09
  And the Fender, when it appears at the end of the third episode
• 2:45:12
  is great. And then in episode 4 it looks
• 2:45:15
  like a phallus which is both erect and flaccid at the same
• 2:45:18
  time. It's pop.
• 2:45:19
  That's not going anywhere. Having said that, I really liked
• 2:45:23
  the first episode. This is.
• 2:45:25
  Really badly directed. Spent in forest shouldn't be
• 2:45:27
  anywhere near Doctor Who I don't think.
• 2:45:29
  And does a better job with Rebos.
• 2:45:31
  Didn't he have trouble on? Sigh.
• 2:45:34
  You're is it? Is it?
• 2:45:36
  Spent in Forest who loses his shit because he thinks Brian
• 2:45:38
  Croucher has hit Jacqueline Pierce when he's directed
• 2:45:41
  weapon. Absolutely, and it causes
• 2:45:45
  massive problems. For Brian Croucher going.
• 2:45:47
  Forward is he? I don't think he does hit, does
• 2:45:50
  he? Doesn't his hand slip in the
• 2:45:51
  scene? Yeah.
• 2:45:53
  No, no, he doesn't hit her at all.
• 2:45:55
  It's all a misunderstanding, but there's a clash.
• 2:45:57
  Of personalities, he had his favorite and George Benson
• 2:46:00
  Foster. Yeah, he's a very camp
• 2:46:02
  flamboyant. Gay.
• 2:46:03
  Man, and Brian Croucher isn't. He.
• 2:46:09
  Definitely. Isn't.
• 2:46:09
  I mean, maybe he was, Maybe he's.
• 2:46:11
  Just suppressing it we don't know and that.
• 2:46:13
  Kind of hypo masculism is just a product of the 1950s.
• 2:46:16
  Anyway. I don't think this is
• 2:46:18
  particularly well directed beyond a couple of scenes.
• 2:46:20
  Part of the issue I think is the sets the wrong size.
• 2:46:22
  So those aerial shots in the cellar at the end just expose
• 2:46:26
  how small that space is. And because they bottle it over
• 2:46:29
  style suicide. It's interesting there's two
• 2:46:32
  suicide or there's a there's a a would be suicide and a suicide
• 2:46:35
  in this season. Again, that's the point earlier,
• 2:46:38
  Joe, that you said there's darkness there, but it's it's
• 2:46:40
  counterbalanced by the kind of lightness that that Williams is
• 2:46:44
  able to introduce here style. Being handed the gun is really
• 2:46:49
  bleak. I mean.
• 2:46:50
  Styles really badly. Acted and and I all that
• 2:46:52
  business what was it because he's he's tied up with who's
• 2:46:57
  that yokel He's got the really good line about the council Ted
• 2:47:00
  Moss yeah Ted Moss 13 be the number.
• 2:47:08
  You can see why Baker can't take it seriously.
• 2:47:11
  And he should keep. His mouth shut, but also,
• 2:47:13
  somebody should go. We probably should do this as a
• 2:47:17
  black comedy because it's not, you know, it's like we we kick
• 2:47:21
  around Gothic, don't we? And and I made this point a
• 2:47:24
  really boring talk, OK, Gothic and it's first generation, very
• 2:47:26
  different to what we have here at Doctor Who.
• 2:47:28
  It just becomes a kind of shorthand for it's scary and
• 2:47:31
  gruesome and that this certainly is.
• 2:47:33
  And yet, and yet there's something about it where I just
• 2:47:37
  think it should be pitched down into whatever supernova they
• 2:47:39
  dump the the skull. It's all entirely irrational on
• 2:47:42
  my part, but yeah, been the fucker.
• 2:47:45
  Wow. But Underworld?
• 2:47:49
  Well, I sort of. Agree and I.
• 2:47:50
  Disagree because I do. Think there are parts of this
• 2:47:52
  that are very. Badly directed.
• 2:47:54
  There's a bit where they go down into the cellar and they're
• 2:47:56
  throwing salt at the fend off and it's just ecstatic shot and
• 2:48:00
  it's so awkward. And she she Louise Jameson goes,
• 2:48:03
  yeah, we did it like off camera. It's very just popping bag.
• 2:48:07
  Yeah, but in the same breath, in the same.
• 2:48:10
  Breath all that location. Work in episode 1 is some of the
• 2:48:12
  best location work you're ever going to see.
• 2:48:14
  There's a bit where the hiker is being stalked through the woods
• 2:48:18
  and there's like a slow pan in through the trees, and it's some
• 2:48:21
  of the scariest stuff ever shot. I think Benson Foster is better
• 2:48:25
  at character drama than he is at like science fiction, which is
• 2:48:29
  why I think Rebos works a lot better for him than this.
• 2:48:34
  Rebus is dog shit Joe. I fucking love Rebus.
• 2:48:37
  Operation, I love you. Actually, you've both.
• 2:48:39
  Persuaded me. Just get this in the bin.
• 2:48:41
  Just bin. It OH.
• 2:48:43
  No, wait, didn't you? I know you started this.
• 2:48:46
  Your. Vote don't count, Yeah.
• 2:48:48
  I don't care about this one really.
• 2:48:50
  I genuinely think Mark Tyler. Is a great character.
• 2:48:53
  Like. It's a character you could so
• 2:48:54
  easily mock. But she's played with such
• 2:48:56
  conviction by Daphne Heard and anyone coming in from sort of
• 2:49:00
  man of Born gets Marvo and is treated with with utmost respect
• 2:49:04
  by the doctor and Leela throughout the entire story.
• 2:49:06
  That scene where she comes in and says they're in a dog alive
• 2:49:10
  would bite me. Boy, which means like she feels
• 2:49:13
  real, but they're treating her like she's a real person so we.
• 2:49:16
  And, you know, in the era of brilliantly eccentric ladies,
• 2:49:20
  the Williams era, she's our first, right?
• 2:49:22
  We go on to get better, but she's our first.
• 2:49:25
  I mean, there's a line she says in this that I use all the time,
• 2:49:28
  you know, John, and it's going to come a time when I'm too old
• 2:49:32
  for this sort of thing. And you can apply that to many
• 2:49:35
  different things, trust me. Careful Mrs. T Remember you're
• 2:49:38
  varicose veins, Adam. Holy shit as well I meant to say
• 2:49:42
  that he's he's you're mad. No.
• 2:49:46
  That's why he doesn't get any. More work after this I I did
• 2:49:48
  the. Same as Luke, I because I.
• 2:49:49
  I was convinced he'd been in Dynasty or one of those shit
• 2:49:52
  shows and he doesn't seem to do anything because it's a weird
• 2:49:55
  performance he gives and the way he says the lines are all
• 2:49:57
  slightly off kilter. What you should have is Don
• 2:50:00
  Brennan and his mum going off in a van solving mysteries.
• 2:50:03
  That would have been amazing, but the whole story's odd.
• 2:50:06
  Adam Kobe is convinced he is the centre of the.
• 2:50:08
  Entire universe. He's certainly the.
• 2:50:10
  Centre of this story when he comes in it was a it was a
• 2:50:12
  corpse what sort was it a dead 1 whatever sort is there you know
• 2:50:17
  swishing his hair about he then covers up the death for if this
• 2:50:21
  was if this was horror fan rock he'd.
• 2:50:23
  Be dead by the end of the third episode because of that.
• 2:50:26
  Another reason why fan rock is shit.
• 2:50:31
  No one's mentioned Dudley. Simpson's.
• 2:50:33
  Music, and I think this is one of his best horror scores.
• 2:50:35
  Ever. He doesn't kick in until 2/3 of
• 2:50:38
  the way through Part 1. I think there's very little
• 2:50:41
  music in Part 1. It's all sound effects and
• 2:50:43
  atmosphere. And that was a savvy choice.
• 2:50:45
  But by the end, he's doing all this mad organ choral stuff with
• 2:50:50
  Theo Rasm going about the place, and it's just wonderful.
• 2:50:53
  Yeah. No, no, I really, really love
• 2:50:55
  this. Silent Killers in the woods,
• 2:50:57
  Evil Colts in the cellar, Possession of skull faces.
• 2:51:01
  Yeah, that was cult, wasn't it? That was cult.
• 2:51:05
  Well. There's a few evil cunts as
• 2:51:07
  well. But I said cult.
• 2:51:08
  Superstitions. Monsters lurking in the dark
• 2:51:11
  corridors of the house. Death itself as the monster
• 2:51:15
  suicide. Mankind has been used.
• 2:51:20
  I really love image and Offender.
• 2:51:22
  I do think it's slow. But it's thick with atmosphere.
• 2:51:27
  I love it. Yes.
• 2:51:28
  Can we put it through? Yeah.
• 2:51:29
  Put it through. Yeah.
• 2:51:31
  That's that's one. What A.
• 2:51:33
  Turncoat you are. Yeah, when I saw this.
• 2:51:41
  In 1993, I was really. Excited to see this because of
• 2:51:46
  the clip on the Tom Baker years, which was as usual a batshit
• 2:51:52
  crazy stupid choice of clip by John Nathan Turner of some of
• 2:51:58
  the change and possession of Fear Ransom through to my
• 2:52:03
  favorite everline of Doctor Who techno Babble that I learned
• 2:52:08
  from. That, and this is a story that
• 2:52:11
  is absolutely full of techno Babble from I I accept without
• 2:52:18
  reservation the results of your potassium argon test through to
• 2:52:22
  tricks off the tongue, doesn't it?
• 2:52:24
  Yes, it can only be created out of pure.
• 2:52:26
  Energy while the school was restructuring fierce.
• 2:52:28
  Brain, which is a line that only Tom Baker can make sound like it
• 2:52:32
  is an absolute, explaining the plot.
• 2:52:37
  Stuff but somehow. For me this just works and I
• 2:52:42
  think despite the scripts needing as another draft to sort
• 2:52:50
  out the problem with episode 3 which is basically just stalling
• 2:52:54
  until fear changes. So the Doctor and Leela go back
• 2:52:58
  to the TARDIS, which is always a bad idea mid story and they go
• 2:53:02
  off to find the 5th planet only to find it's not there.
• 2:53:07
  It's such a cul-de-sac of just, oh, nothing's happening and they
• 2:53:12
  sit in the TARDIS and they talk and not much is happening and
• 2:53:15
  you're just willing them to get back to the wonderful
• 2:53:17
  characters, back to to see what's going on.
• 2:53:21
  Do you know what it's like? It's a bit like that scene
• 2:53:23
  inferior from the deep where they go back to the.
• 2:53:26
  And investigate the weed. It's very odd in the middle of a
• 2:53:29
  of what's supposed to be a claustrophobic Horror Story.
• 2:53:31
  So return to your place of safety and go, well, that's the
• 2:53:34
  end of that. We'll go back later.
• 2:53:36
  Yeah, exactly. And why don't you do this in
• 2:53:39
  other stories? You know you can.
• 2:53:40
  Go and research whatever's going on in safety for a bit.
• 2:53:44
  It's kind of takes some of the the drama out of it.
• 2:53:48
  I agree with Paul that actually George Spencer Foster isn't a
• 2:53:51
  great director. He stuck in the 1950s and the
• 2:53:55
  1960s which was the peak of his career.
• 2:53:57
  He was the producer of Out of the Unknown, which was a weird
• 2:54:01
  and creepy and oddly often just really boring sci-fi show, but
• 2:54:09
  also at times really interesting and funny and clever.
• 2:54:14
  But he's kind of stuck in that he hasn't moved with the time,
• 2:54:18
  so everything is done with picture and sound, which is
• 2:54:22
  absolutely fine because it creates an atmosphere, but it's
• 2:54:25
  very slow compared to the other stories this season.
• 2:54:28
  I think there is a lack of pace to this that is fortunately
• 2:54:35
  counterbalanced by its creepiness and spooky
• 2:54:38
  atmosphere. And as Joe said, we've got night
• 2:54:41
  filming. The Hinchcliffe era doesn't
• 2:54:43
  generally do night filming. Each of the Williams years does
• 2:54:47
  proper night filming, or they were supposed to, at least for
• 2:54:50
  Sharda, If we if we'd had that. So you know, it's it looks
• 2:54:55
  expensive. They're back at Stargrove, so
• 2:54:57
  that's a great location. All of the sets are pretty
• 2:55:00
  decent overall. It feels like 1978 on the
• 2:55:04
  screen, oddly, which is quite, quite rare. 197778 right down to
• 2:55:10
  the crockery that they are using in the kitchen, which just
• 2:55:13
  screamed 1977 and took me back to my own childhood.
• 2:55:20
  And, you know, the characters are all really well drawn and
• 2:55:23
  they're all sort of, they feel like real people and they have a
• 2:55:27
  relationship and they have a set of relationships sort of between
• 2:55:30
  them. And just like the line where,
• 2:55:33
  come on, Maxi, give us a smile. It's the end of the day is
• 2:55:36
  something I would say to certain members of my team who have
• 2:55:39
  left. Thank fuck.
• 2:55:41
  So do you remember it was your turn to make breakfast today?
• 2:55:44
  Exactly. Yeah, all of those.
• 2:55:46
  Kind of things just feel like real workplate.
• 2:55:49
  These are people who are stuck together and living together and
• 2:55:53
  misses Tyler coming in to clean for them and cook for them is,
• 2:55:57
  yeah, absolutely what they would be doing.
• 2:55:59
  So I'm going to grudgingly put this through and I think, yeah,
• 2:56:03
  I've always sort of quite liked this.
• 2:56:05
  And I do love Dudley Simpson's spooky music.
• 2:56:08
  So Fred Vendahl is going through.
• 2:56:12
  Feels like the first one that's going to get the elbow.
• 2:56:15
  Round two though the general. Behind is not good.
• 2:56:19
  I'm really scared of the one. Who's going to win this, the
• 2:56:23
  reputation of this podcast? Is plummeting.
• 2:56:28
  So, Paul, that leaves you with our.
• 2:56:30
  Final story of this. Season Robert Holmes is
• 2:56:34
  satirical The Sun Makers I hate the Sun Makers I.
• 2:56:44
  Positively loathe the sun makers when I.
• 2:56:48
  First saw it, I thought it was OK.
• 2:56:51
  I thought totally. It was quite odd.
• 2:56:55
  I think a lot depends on how you take Tom Baker sitting up in the
• 2:56:59
  correction centre wearing that weird hair dryer thing where
• 2:57:03
  he's going to be tortured. Because we it builds up to how
• 2:57:06
  terrible the correction centre isn't, how amazing it is that
• 2:57:09
  the the Ajax who launched the previous fraud against the
• 2:57:14
  company survives it. Two years or five years?
• 2:57:16
  A. Real sense.
• 2:57:17
  That this is a really in place. Weirdly enough, he's got
• 2:57:21
  affinities with the way back. You know, the the torture, the
• 2:57:25
  keeping the population suppressed, the really dull
• 2:57:29
  vistas, the miserable location work.
• 2:57:33
  But this is. Essentially a glorified skit.
• 2:57:36
  This is a comedy sketch. On not even the two Ronnies
• 2:57:42
  we're told. Aren't we that Holmes gets the
• 2:57:46
  hump because he gets hit with a massive tax bill because we're
• 2:57:51
  in a peer? We keep hearing about inflation,
• 2:57:53
  although if you look, the figures for inflation across the
• 2:57:55
  year are actually lower than two years earlier.
• 2:57:57
  So Hinchcliffe has got a higher rate of inflation and yet he's
• 2:58:00
  able to make things in a way that this production seems.
• 2:58:03
  But we're not looking at the spikes.
• 2:58:05
  But what gets homes is their income tax.
• 2:58:08
  Because I'm tedious and I had a bit of time on my head.
• 2:58:10
  I looked at tax rates for 1976 through 76.
• 2:58:16
  My brilliant this is it. This is dead into the. 3rd hour
• 2:58:22
  now. Paul with his voice gets out the
• 2:58:24
  fucking tax rates for seven. The interesting thing with this
• 2:58:29
  story is it. Coming.
• 2:58:30
  From the political. Left or the political right?
• 2:58:32
  Jamieson argues it's a Marxist text Pennant.
• 2:58:35
  Roberts seems to think that as well.
• 2:58:37
  But Tim Stanley and Dominic Sambrook, you know of the right,
• 2:58:42
  loves this story and they pick up on eyebrows.
• 2:58:45
  If you look at Stan, if you look at Sambrook in the documentary
• 2:58:50
  for this and then if you read Seasons in the Sun, which is his
• 2:58:56
  volume from 1974 through 79 in his history of post war Britain,
• 2:59:00
  he keeps coming back to Doctor Who as a cultural and they pick
• 2:59:04
  up on the eyebrows and he really wants was it gather a hate?
• 2:59:08
  Is he hate or hail? I can never remember.
• 2:59:11
  He really wants, hate to be Denis Healy, Labour's Chancellor
• 2:59:15
  of the Exchequer at this point, who is meant to have said but
• 2:59:18
  never said, he's going to squeeze people with tax until
• 2:59:20
  the pips squeak. It is true the top rate of tax
• 2:59:24
  at this point is 83% and Holmes may well have slipped into that
• 2:59:28
  bracket. Because if you look at how
• 2:59:29
  things go up, four and a half, 1000 lbs is your basic tax free
• 2:59:36
  and then thereafter it's 32% and then for X two £500 it goes up
• 2:59:41
  to 50%. And though, so you can see you
• 2:59:43
  get into 83% very, very quickly. Holmes's problem is the BBC's
• 2:59:47
  contracts are shit when it comes to script editors.
• 2:59:50
  Donald Tusk should have the same problem, hasn't he?
• 2:59:51
  Donald Tusk should have a Co authorship for the massacre.
• 2:59:55
  But the BBC tells him, well the work he did on episodes 1-2 and
• 2:59:58
  three, that's covered by being a script editor.
• 3:00:00
  He only gets on to the fourth episode because he's left by
• 3:00:03
  that point in his freelance. So Holmes.
• 3:00:05
  His issue is he gets paid as a script editor.
• 3:00:08
  He's getting residuals from other TV work.
• 3:00:10
  I think he's getting money from Target.
• 3:00:12
  And then of course, the BBC's weird contract means that the
• 3:00:15
  scripts he writes so arc in space, tell us when Chai Yang,
• 3:00:20
  maybe Pyramids and Mars, even though his name's not on it,
• 3:00:22
  that's class differently. And then the tax man comes
• 3:00:25
  calling and Holmes finds he owes a lot of money.
• 3:00:28
  It's also a point which Holmes career goes very, very strange.
• 3:00:31
  Having turned down Blake 7, there seems to if you read
• 3:00:34
  Molesworth, there's various things that don't get produced.
• 3:00:37
  So Louise Jameson argues that in fact it's not about the taxman,
• 3:00:40
  it's about the BBC. And I think she's on to
• 3:00:43
  something there because the the Globe on the TV screen is
• 3:00:46
  clearly meant to be the BBC. And Holmes makes use of TV in
• 3:00:50
  this. He'll make use of television in
• 3:00:53
  Andrew Zani, and he makes use of TV in kind of the Monsters.
• 3:00:57
  So he's aware of how TV works within these narratives and
• 3:01:01
  within the political or in a way that other writers aren't aware
• 3:01:04
  of it. Holmes is maybe the great
• 3:01:07
  satirist, but this isn't great satire because I don't know
• 3:01:09
  where it's coming from because, you know, it's so drab.
• 3:01:14
  So Sandbrook argues. Well, that's so it looks like
• 3:01:17
  the Eastern Bloc, yes, but it's also because there's fuck all
• 3:01:21
  money left. And so you filmed it in on top
• 3:01:23
  of a roof of a power station and some of those some of the film
• 3:01:27
  scenes look OK. When they're going down into the
• 3:01:29
  tunnel, it looks OK, but that's end of that second episode when
• 3:01:34
  that go karts coming towards it. Even Louise Jameson looks like
• 3:01:38
  she's dead behind the eyes. We're ever going to see.
• 3:01:43
  The only thing worse than in this season is Luke's fucking
• 3:01:46
  model boat crashing onto nothing to do with me.
• 3:01:52
  I know, but you blow up and you're right.
• 3:01:54
  Those are Oh no, there's some guards coming, fuck what we do
• 3:02:00
  and then Found It by Louise Jameson can drive that fucking
• 3:02:03
  truck. But they have to do the.
• 3:02:05
  Women drivers, what are they like?
• 3:02:07
  Joke. And then she gets shot.
• 3:02:14
  Like Holmes is bitching about his previous employees.
• 3:02:16
  I know there is clearly. Something going on.
• 3:02:18
  Someone is talking down Holmes at the BBC because Boucher
• 3:02:21
  against this, because Molesworth reports this.
• 3:02:23
  Boucher and Maloney go and see McDonald and they have a list of
• 3:02:28
  writers for season 2 of Blake 7, don't they?
• 3:02:30
  And McDonald goes, You sure you want Bob Holmes, the Doctor Who?
• 3:02:33
  People say he's burnt out. And I think if you read
• 3:02:36
  Boucher's quotations in Molesworth, he's got a problem
• 3:02:39
  with Graham Williams. He doesn't think Williams is up
• 3:02:41
  to the job and there's a kind of a loose to William's problems
• 3:02:44
  which I assume is his depression and his use of alcohol.
• 3:02:47
  And Belcher probably should be a mouth shut but he thinks that
• 3:02:49
  that's why Holmes walks away. I think Holmes is burnt out.
• 3:02:52
  I'll be honest. Between Deadly Assassin and
• 3:02:55
  Kaiser and Rosani, Holmes is best script by a country mile.
• 3:02:58
  Is Orbit what he does for Doctor Who?
• 3:03:01
  I like Krog but everything else is kind of shit and that
• 3:03:03
  includes the Rebus operation. It's got one good seat and a bit
• 3:03:07
  of decent well building. This, this is just someone who's
• 3:03:11
  responding to a lot of discussions around tax and
• 3:03:14
  liberty that's going on at this point in time.
• 3:03:17
  So you'll recall those who young enough to remember record
• 3:03:20
  Breakers on the TV in the 1980s. And we were recorders.
• 3:03:24
  Yeah. Norris, Mcguirter, Roy Castle.
• 3:03:26
  He's. Far too young to.
• 3:03:28
  Remember. Yes, but the rest of us, Yeah.
• 3:03:30
  Do we remember, however? Norris Mcguirter's twin.
• 3:03:33
  Brother. Ross That's even before my time,
• 3:03:37
  of course. Norris Norris were very of the.
• 3:03:41
  Right and Norris in 1995, in response to the Iris bombing
• 3:03:45
  campaign, put up a £50,000 reward for the capture of the
• 3:03:48
  bombers. He also said that people from,
• 3:03:50
  quote, Southern Ireland should hand over their signatures and
• 3:03:54
  their photographs to the local police station, they should
• 3:03:57
  carry identity documents and they should also bring back the
• 3:03:59
  death penalty. The IRA shot him dead 3 weeks
• 3:04:02
  later. If he'd survived, he was going
• 3:04:05
  to publish this great manifesto, which is then picked up by the
• 3:04:09
  new right. One of those manifestos is about
• 3:04:11
  taxation. I want to pay tax and liberty.
• 3:04:14
  So this is a weird text then that you have here with the Sun
• 3:04:18
  Makers because either it's coming from complaints about
• 3:04:21
  tax, therefore it's of the right, or it's a Marxist text as
• 3:04:25
  Jameson argues, in which case it's coming from the left.
• 3:04:27
  But it kind of falls somewhere in between.
• 3:04:30
  What is interesting is it's depiction of revolutionary
• 3:04:32
  violence and it's kind of like where Robespierre makes the
• 3:04:37
  point in in 1793, complain about people who want the revolution
• 3:04:41
  but without the revolution is what Zizek talks about that
• 3:04:43
  when, you know, maybe we should try these things again and that
• 3:04:46
  you need revolutionary violence because what you get here is a
• 3:04:48
  real sense of the revolutionaries are violent.
• 3:04:52
  But also it's interesting in terms of who the revolutionaries
• 3:04:55
  because we discovered that William Simmons is carried
• 3:04:57
  what's he called Mandal. Mandal mandrels are grade B.
• 3:05:02
  So higher up the Skelden. Cordo, who's meant to be the
• 3:05:05
  figure that we watch. And so we've got a sense of
• 3:05:08
  these middle class revolutionaries and what they
• 3:05:10
  unleash is this kind of violent mob whose big act is to throw
• 3:05:15
  Hade off the roof. And it's really weird because
• 3:05:19
  hey does his full on Kenneth. Williams.
• 3:05:22
  And there's a dummy in his outfit, which of course.
• 3:05:25
  Is a hangover from when they were going to.
• 3:05:27
  Have these kind of Aztec clothing and then the money ran
• 3:05:30
  out and they just go put everyone in fucking smocks and
• 3:05:33
  beige that will do and leave this cunt dressed as a humbug
• 3:05:37
  and then they will turn around and go there'll be more of that
• 3:05:40
  Dicks when he gets something about and they felt.
• 3:05:45
  Instant regret, but on screen you get.
• 3:05:48
  The doctor goes well. See you later, everybody.
• 3:05:51
  Take care. I.
• 3:05:53
  Mean it's this guy in charge of 1 Micropolis.
• 3:05:55
  Doesn't. Bother with the other 5
• 3:05:56
  micropolises. Whatsoever, But I come back to
• 3:05:58
  this point about how people on the right really like this.
• 3:06:02
  They like, I think the idea that it shows that you can't trust
• 3:06:05
  left wing revolutionary because they're all violent shits.
• 3:06:08
  But what they also like is they think it's a having a pop at
• 3:06:11
  Denis Healey, Labour Chancellor, big eyebrows.
• 3:06:15
  They can't quite work out who's Dennis Healy.
• 3:06:18
  So Sambrook thinks it's Haid because he's so verbose.
• 3:06:22
  Like Healy. Tim Stanley says it's the
• 3:06:25
  collector and the collector's a problem because I think without.
• 3:06:30
  And that's why I asked Joe to check the script to see if
• 3:06:34
  Holmes specifies the eyebrows. The eyebrows are in a different
• 3:06:37
  text. And I checked this.
• 3:06:39
  So Anthony Trollope's The Way We Live Now from 1878, which was
• 3:06:43
  done in the 90s, but with with David Suchet is about a
• 3:06:48
  speculator who takes the money from these gullible, feckless
• 3:06:52
  aristos. And he's called Melmouth and
• 3:06:54
  he's got, we're told about his eyebrows, but he's Jewish.
• 3:06:58
  And if you look at how they've dressed the collector, he's
• 3:07:02
  small, sallow, he's in the pinstripe suit.
• 3:07:06
  He looks a bit like a fucked up version of Blofeld.
• 3:07:09
  But he's tied up with he's from, from Usarius, isn't he?
• 3:07:13
  It's usury. Usury in the classical period,
• 3:07:16
  usury was the worst thing you could possibly do, the
• 3:07:19
  punishments for. It's in Rome, the people who who
• 3:07:22
  lend money with interest classically are from the Jewish
• 3:07:26
  community. And so it becomes this
• 3:07:28
  anti-Semitic trope. You can see it in Merchant of
• 3:07:31
  Venice. And this whiff of it is coming
• 3:07:33
  off this character because he's from Useris.
• 3:07:36
  And then at the end, what does he do?
• 3:07:37
  Joe? You're right.
• 3:07:38
  He goes in, that's a commode. You shit out the discordant
• 3:07:43
  element. But then Tom Baker, you're
• 3:07:45
  right, Tom goes, see you lads, we're fucked off in a society
• 3:07:49
  now that doesn't believe in tax because we're told there'll be
• 3:07:52
  no tax now citizens and it's all about liberty.
• 3:07:55
  So it becomes this right wing fantasy of absolute liberty, no
• 3:07:59
  taxation. Everyone will die in that
• 3:08:01
  micropolis before the years out or the the whoever's running the
• 3:08:05
  other micropolis. The other thing, there's a weird
• 3:08:07
  moment where Hayde and the Collector are talking and I
• 3:08:10
  think the third episode and it's not quite clear what the
• 3:08:13
  relationship between the Agropolis and the company is.
• 3:08:16
  The company being the government is weird as well because of
• 3:08:19
  course you're then paying tax to the companies you work for,
• 3:08:22
  which in 77 is odd unless it's meant to be something about
• 3:08:26
  about state-run industries. So like the railways, we're more
• 3:08:30
  used to it now I think where corporations got so powerful
• 3:08:33
  someone like space Karen thinks he can knock over the European
• 3:08:36
  governments because they're just not nice enough to Tommy
• 3:08:38
  Robinson and please buy his shit cyber truck.
• 3:08:42
  You know, that type of thing. Again, it's more pertinent to us
• 3:08:46
  than I think it was in 77. In 77 it's just a weird mess of
• 3:08:52
  complaints and and. Tonal.
• 3:08:55
  Inconsistencies and are we meant to laugh at this even though
• 3:08:59
  it's a brutalized society? Are we meant to laugh at the
• 3:09:02
  sense of torture? Also, it doesn't say much about
• 3:09:04
  the revolutionaries because the two lads running steamer
• 3:09:07
  control, they go up the revolution lads and man of all
• 3:09:10
  people just hands the gun over and go I'm with you now,
• 3:09:12
  brothers. It's deeply, deeply cynical in
• 3:09:14
  it's politics and and and I I loathe it.
• 3:09:17
  Spin it, put it in the commode with the with the with the
• 3:09:21
  collector. Just put it down over his green
• 3:09:22
  shit. Do you know?
• 3:09:24
  I like that though. I like the fact.
• 3:09:26
  That it's asking us to laugh and then question, should I be
• 3:09:31
  laughing at this? I like it when TV makes me a bit
• 3:09:33
  uncomfortable like this. But anyway, we'll get to that
• 3:09:35
  when when I have my say, should we have a look at the what our
• 3:09:40
  what our listeners? Have to say about this.
• 3:09:42
  Please make Luke follow that though.
• 3:09:44
  Not me, I know. I know I'm sorry lads, you know
• 3:09:48
  I. Don't get out much and you know
• 3:09:50
  that's. Why these things, Joe?
• 3:09:52
  Because it doesn't go well. It's embarrassing, the thing.
• 3:09:55
  Is though, Paul? It's also interesting after this
• 3:09:58
  see. That, but you know you.
• 3:10:00
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:10:01
  Mine's literally. Just going to be.
• 3:10:02
  It's good though it's shit. I can't really follow anything
• 3:10:08
  else. You could just say, yeah, it's
• 3:10:10
  funny, isn't it? Anyway.
• 3:10:12
  Let's go to the comments, shall we?
• 3:10:14
  Yes. So, Fraser, Gregory.
• 3:10:16
  Says possibly the most Blake seven who story.
• 3:10:19
  A shame it literally disappears down the toilet by the end.
• 3:10:22
  The character of the Collector could be seen as problematic
• 3:10:25
  nowadays, but Henry Wolf's turn is only beaten by Richard Leach,
• 3:10:29
  not Holmes's finest. Oh, Quinn.
• 3:10:33
  Oh no, we've just heard. Homes blowing a theme at the
• 3:10:39
  Taxman. And ruthless corporation
• 3:10:40
  corporations, but. Not overly coherent in what he's
• 3:10:43
  trying to say. Still, it's witty, and Richard
• 3:10:46
  Lee gives probably the fruitiest and most fun performance of the
• 3:10:49
  year. So James Lark says broad satire.
• 3:10:54
  Theatrical sets, absurdist costumes, and.
• 3:10:56
  Over the top performances turn out to be the formula for a
• 3:10:59
  hugely enjoyable slice of who that gets better with each
• 3:11:02
  watch. But eleven years before the
• 3:11:04
  Happiness Patrol, the farthest successful sun maker shows
• 3:11:08
  difficult balance to strike. Well done, James.
• 3:11:11
  Well. Played James.
• 3:11:12
  That's a very strictly argument that is that Lee.
• 3:11:15
  Nuvi says utterly. Brilliant and my favorite Tom
• 3:11:18
  Baker story. It's mature, clever, scathing,
• 3:11:20
  and looks very differently to everything before it without
• 3:11:25
  without seeming cheap. Wow, I don't know what you're
• 3:11:29
  watching, Matt that. Was as hard for me to say as
• 3:11:33
  Luke. What he said about Orphan Rock.
• 3:11:35
  So big orange. Orange.
• 3:11:39
  Oh, says social satire. That's still prescient.
• 3:11:42
  Today. Leela.
• 3:11:43
  Is well written and there's a lot of dialogue for everyone to
• 3:11:46
  chew. Could be the best of the season
• 3:11:49
  he pair. Did you notice how you became a
• 3:11:51
  cockney for the first? I said social satire.
• 3:11:56
  Ohh no. I'm so good at accents.
• 3:11:58
  It's. Untrue.
• 3:12:00
  Like James Baldwin, Bennett says People who?
• 3:12:04
  Complain about dull corridor sets.
• 3:12:06
  Have missed the point entirely. Sadism in multiple forms, great
• 3:12:10
  performances and a world I'd like to revisit to see what
• 3:12:13
  happened next. Well, they're all dead as Paul
• 3:12:15
  said, as I don't think it would have gone well.
• 3:12:18
  Definitely keep Ian Banks says a fantastic script.
• 3:12:23
  Great. Performances, Michael.
• 3:12:24
  Keating and Louise Jameson looking stunning in every frame.
• 3:12:28
  I love it when the doctor topples corrupt governments and
• 3:12:31
  this doesn't disappoint. Canine begging for a WALK is a
• 3:12:36
  lovely scene. He does it, but he supersedes it
• 3:12:39
  with another corrupt scam. Jason Thompson, I love it.
• 3:12:45
  Although the ending is a bit. Weird as a simple indexing error
• 3:12:48
  makes the collector shrivel up and fall down a commode.
• 3:12:51
  Leela's relationship with Cordo is lovely.
• 3:12:53
  Look how they hug in the background when she's rescued
• 3:12:55
  from the steamer. Paul Dunn says Holmes on form,
• 3:12:59
  witty dialogue and great satire. Wonderful Louise shines and
• 3:13:02
  Henry Wolf is magical fabulous. Despite the handicap of being
• 3:13:06
  directed by Pennant Roberts, Daniel McKnight says full of eye
• 3:13:11
  watering. 70s maxi orange and Marina beige so looks as cheap
• 3:13:17
  as chips. If only the story was up to
• 3:13:19
  Holmes as usual standards. But despite some fun scenes for
• 3:13:21
  Leela, this is bog standard revolution stuff.
• 3:13:24
  Overrated Luke Sims Jenkins says Holmes get to do what he didn't
• 3:13:29
  let others. Or himself.
• 3:13:30
  Do the last two seasons have some fucking fun?
• 3:13:35
  I adore it. It's smart and hilarious.
• 3:13:39
  Michael Storm says the poster boy.
• 3:13:42
  For beige cheap looking 70s sci-fi, it's also a very dull
• 3:13:46
  story. One joke stretched over 4
• 3:13:48
  episodes played as a bog standard storyline.
• 3:13:51
  That's what you said Paul. Not even the presence of PC
• 3:13:54
  Ventress from Heartbeat? Who the hell was that?
• 3:13:57
  And Villa from Blade 7 can save this Turkey, Dave Rennie says.
• 3:14:03
  Very cleverly written with some wonderful characters.
• 3:14:05
  Checking a guy. Off a Roof is probably as
• 3:14:07
  violent as Doctor Who gets. It's also extremely funny.
• 3:14:12
  Henry Wolf is fantastic. Best villain of the season now
• 3:14:17
  this from David Gillespie Pratt, this is.
• 3:14:19
  Personal, all right, and you'll know from the comment why it's
• 3:14:22
  personal. A wholly unfair, grotesque
• 3:14:26
  parody on the poor civil servants who work in the tax
• 3:14:30
  system. Can anybody guess where David
• 3:14:33
  Gillespie Pratt works? But a great vehicle for Leela,
• 3:14:37
  so there's something to like at least, Paul Smyer says.
• 3:14:40
  Funny, satirical and clever. A wonderful.
• 3:14:42
  Robert Holmes. Script The Gatherer and
• 3:14:44
  Collector are wonderful creations.
• 3:14:46
  Best of the season. Jim Allenby Despite some dull
• 3:14:50
  corridor sets, this is a clever and.
• 3:14:52
  Witty story, one I never noticed as a kid.
• 3:14:54
  The comedy is spot on and there are some great characters with
• 3:14:57
  Hayde being the stand out. Tom's more comedic take on the
• 3:15:00
  Doctor really stands out. And finally, Herald of Creation
• 3:15:04
  says a great script, Michael. Keaton shines in what is a very
• 3:15:07
  tiny role. It's very quotable.
• 3:15:11
  Go on then, Luke I. I like that it's set on Pluto.
• 3:15:19
  I like that big ATM machine. That's quite cool.
• 3:15:27
  Yeah, that's it. I the rest it's.
• 3:15:33
  Boring, really. And it is that.
• 3:15:37
  Thing of just like 1. Is it even a gag?
• 3:15:42
  What a comment stretched over 4 episodes.
• 3:15:46
  I'm absolutely in agreement with Paul.
• 3:15:48
  Really is that it's just I like it when it's doing Doctor Who.
• 3:15:55
  He thinks so. Like it's on.
• 3:15:57
  Pluto and you know that moment when Tom hypnotizes the guard
• 3:16:03
  but accidentally hypnotizes Leila?
• 3:16:06
  Great bit of business wasn't in the script.
• 3:16:08
  They just came up with that on set.
• 3:16:12
  I sort of like it when it's being a bit Doctor Who, but I
• 3:16:18
  don't I think it's actually quite boring.
• 3:16:21
  It's ugly to look at sort of all right when it's on the tobacco
• 3:16:26
  factory, but absolutely crap when it's just the orange and
• 3:16:30
  yellows of of that world. And then it goes even further
• 3:16:33
  down. It's just grey and horrible.
• 3:16:37
  The Collector is quite good. He's a horrible little thing
• 3:16:39
  really, isn't it? And it's the first feeling or
• 3:16:42
  the only villain of the season. So to really get under your skin
• 3:16:46
  and he's, you know, he's just good feel anything.
• 3:16:48
  So he's got a great laugh and and it's a good performance.
• 3:16:54
  I really don't have much to say about it though.
• 3:16:56
  I don't. Think it's this grandiose?
• 3:16:59
  Commentary that people put it on a pedestal about.
• 3:17:03
  I think it's actually. Just a weak.
• 3:17:06
  Joke that, that is full of weak jokes.
• 3:17:10
  I mentioned the P-45 corridor before.
• 3:17:12
  That's not a joke. That's not witty.
• 3:17:15
  That's just putting P-45 on a wall.
• 3:17:18
  It's, it's not, it's not clever, is it?
• 3:17:23
  And like, OK, there's lines that are zingy, like paying taxes are
• 3:17:28
  more painful, but they don't make me laugh.
• 3:17:31
  I don't. I don't really think they've got
• 3:17:33
  a place in. In Doctor.
• 3:17:34
  Who? Perhaps everyone runs from the
• 3:17:37
  tax man. I love that line.
• 3:17:39
  Yeah, but Leader? Doesn't know what tax man is,
• 3:17:42
  but they are. Running.
• 3:17:44
  So she knows they're running. Yeah, I mean.
• 3:17:45
  The prop the problem. There is the Aztec design was
• 3:17:48
  meant to. If I recall suggest like
• 3:17:50
  sacrifice. And so that makes more sense to
• 3:17:53
  what Tom Baker says at that point.
• 3:17:55
  Once you haven't got the money to do that and all you've got is
• 3:17:58
  Hayes outfit and those Star Sun badges, which only link in terms
• 3:18:02
  of the, the the the six Suns that have been built.
• 3:18:04
  You then got a lot of lines, which sounds smart, but they
• 3:18:07
  don't really match the character, so you've got Lila
• 3:18:09
  doing strange things there, and then it just ends with this kind
• 3:18:12
  of Bactinian thing of you. You shit out the discordant
• 3:18:15
  member and everything's fine. Yeah, I think it just gets
• 3:18:20
  worse. I don't.
• 3:18:21
  Happily watched K. Nine and the Doctor play chess
• 3:18:24
  for for 4 episodes and then and then they land on.
• 3:18:29
  Pluto. And they're like, oh, Pluto,
• 3:18:31
  We're like, why? Would you go to Pluto?
• 3:18:33
  I sort of like, you know, when we go to the solar system,
• 3:18:35
  Jupiter and Jupiter in the invisible enemy and Neptune's
• 3:18:39
  moon and sleep no more and stuff.
• 3:18:41
  It's just feels quite tangible and close and then and then
• 3:18:45
  suddenly you just did these like horribly orange sets with.
• 3:18:52
  Yeah, I just don't think it's. I don't think it's clever.
• 3:18:55
  Really. Do you realize what you've just
• 3:18:58
  unleashed there? I'm not a Big Finish story.
• 3:19:03
  They're there now, taking notes, going OK, no, and the doctor
• 3:19:05
  playing chess for that would be amazing.
• 3:19:08
  Well, no, it's just the 7th. Seal isn't it?
• 3:19:11
  It's. Just and then death one.
• 3:19:13
  Thing with a big size. And Paddington, because he's
• 3:19:16
  killed everyone, hasn't he in the last two or anything Big
• 3:19:20
  Finish come up with, I think. I don't think it's the worst of
• 3:19:23
  the. Season, I think it'd be the
• 3:19:26
  worst. Of quite a few other seasons.
• 3:19:28
  So Ben, right. Well, I will take this one next.
• 3:19:35
  I'd say this is one of the worst productions of this particular
• 3:19:40
  season. The opening shot.
• 3:19:43
  If that didn't take half the audience off the show, it really
• 3:19:48
  should have done. This is Doctor Who that is
• 3:19:50
  shoddy and it shouldn't be shoddy.
• 3:19:53
  They've learnt so much over the last few years of of how to make
• 3:19:57
  this show. And yet we've got a featureless
• 3:20:01
  Peach coloured wall with a little slot cut out of it and
• 3:20:05
  some some duct tape putting a cross next to it.
• 3:20:10
  And that's what you're showcasing as your opening shot.
• 3:20:14
  You're not even in one of the You could have even had Cordo
• 3:20:17
  walking down one of the really great.
• 3:20:21
  Tunnels to start it off with so that at least it looks dramatic.
• 3:20:25
  But no, this is Pennant Roberts and he's going with the script
• 3:20:28
  and just thinking, oh, well, that'll do.
• 3:20:30
  And this is a production that is very much that will do.
• 3:20:33
  We've got no money. So basically the set of the the
• 3:20:37
  base where the Rebels live is Black Drapes.
• 3:20:41
  It's the planet of the Black Drapes, with some two bits of
• 3:20:44
  set, one pipe coming up, one pipe going down and a ladder,
• 3:20:49
  and that's your set. And somehow this is some kind of
• 3:20:55
  brilliant production of a really funny script.
• 3:20:57
  I don't think it is particularly funny and the the big joke that
• 3:21:02
  they make in the making of is look, we've gone to this
• 3:21:05
  location and it's got a really long corridor and we can do this
• 3:21:09
  long shot with this go Kart that goes as slow as the one in
• 3:21:13
  Vengeance on Varos and as slow as the one in the Happiness
• 3:21:18
  Patrol. This is where the antecedent of
• 3:21:20
  the Happiness Patrol comes from. It's using shit electric
• 3:21:23
  vehicles that should be moving fast, going really slowly down
• 3:21:29
  long boring corridors. It's a it might be long, but
• 3:21:34
  it's featureless and it's dull. At least the London, the tunnels
• 3:21:38
  under the Thames, the the pedestrian tunnels look
• 3:21:41
  brilliant and then and then dark.
• 3:21:44
  And that's a really great place to film Doctor Who and it will
• 3:21:47
  be a really great place to film Blake 7 in 1980 when they do
• 3:21:51
  Ultra World. But it's just not very good.
• 3:21:56
  And for all the things that people say, the the tonal
• 3:22:02
  differences in the performances are really jarring.
• 3:22:06
  So you've got the collector that's overly fully theatrical
• 3:22:09
  and very plummy and very grown. And then you've got man who is
• 3:22:12
  very kind of like this, and she's just very.
• 3:22:14
  Boring and she's. Really boring actress.
• 3:22:17
  I'm sorry. She looks great, but she's she's
• 3:22:19
  not great. And then you've got.
• 3:22:20
  All the rebels we're. The rebels, Yeah, We're going to
• 3:22:23
  go for it, yeah. We're going to shoot lovely Tom
• 3:22:25
  Kelly in this. Corridor.
• 3:22:27
  And trample him to death. You are basically describing the
• 3:22:30
  Graham Williams here. I know I.
• 3:22:32
  Know. Performance inconsistencies as
• 3:22:35
  every single. Graham Williams story.
• 3:22:37
  Yeah, I know. But but that said, I do think
• 3:22:41
  Henry Wolf. Gives a.
• 3:22:42
  Really. Great performance.
• 3:22:43
  He is creepy and odd in the way that he was in Words and
• 3:22:47
  Pictures at the same time when he was the presenter of Words
• 3:22:50
  and Pictures when I was a child. And even my mum used to say he's
• 3:22:54
  that. It's that really creepy man for
• 3:22:56
  words and pictures in this one, isn't it?
• 3:22:58
  So obviously sort of struck a chord.
• 3:23:00
  But yeah, I don't know, it's just the production feels so
• 3:23:05
  lame on this one. So.
• 3:23:08
  I'm bidding it for that reason, Sorry.
• 3:23:11
  Well, it doesn't matter what I say, but.
• 3:23:15
  Before I die, I'll see this rat hole.
• 3:23:18
  Ankle deep in. Blood he's not that bad that is
• 3:23:23
  a promise thing I. Really like the sun.
• 3:23:26
  Makers and I'm unapologetic about it.
• 3:23:29
  I think it's one of Leilas best stories.
• 3:23:31
  I think Holmes absolutely understands the character.
• 3:23:34
  I love how she protects Cordo, how she baits Mandrel, how she
• 3:23:37
  threatens V, how she insults the guard leering even in a straight
• 3:23:42
  jacket. She's Ferrell was hell.
• 3:23:44
  She incites rebellion, she refuses to scream when she
• 3:23:47
  thinks she's going to die. She kisses the hero of the day,
• 3:23:50
  and she gets lines like you. You have nothing Mandrel.
• 3:23:54
  No pride, no courage, no manhood.
• 3:23:56
  Even animals protect their own. Her lines are fabulous in this
• 3:24:01
  story, and you can see why she thinks it's her best story.
• 3:24:04
  She wraps it up. She's having a wonderful time.
• 3:24:06
  You've also got. Pretty much, yeah, because
• 3:24:10
  Holmes knows. They can't work together, so
• 3:24:12
  when the Doctor is caught, when he's off doing his Reggie Varney
• 3:24:16
  out with the massive credit card she has to save him by a country
• 3:24:22
  mile is the best companion in Old Who.
• 3:24:23
  She's the only one who has a. Decent career afterwards.
• 3:24:25
  You can see here how she's responding to even shit like
• 3:24:28
  this. She turns into gold, but unlike
• 3:24:30
  something like Underworld, where she's forced to go, you're
• 3:24:33
  laughing at me. You're all laughing at.
• 3:24:35
  It's just terrible dialogue that she's given in that story.
• 3:24:37
  Here she's given proper, serious, decent dialogue to say
• 3:24:42
  by Robert Holmes and she just seizes it and she's great.
• 3:24:45
  I love the two villains in this camp.
• 3:24:47
  Doesn't even begin to describe it.
• 3:24:49
  You've got the ultimate middle manager in Haid.
• 3:24:51
  He's over observing and dictating every part of this
• 3:24:54
  process. His ego is completely out of
• 3:24:56
  control. He's enjoying his authority and
• 3:24:59
  the exploitation of people, and he's reaping the rewards of
• 3:25:02
  sucking up to the boss. He's like many a manager I've
• 3:25:05
  worked with in my time. I think that's the joke there.
• 3:25:08
  He is the ultimate middle manager.
• 3:25:10
  Then you have the Collector. It's just wonderful.
• 3:25:13
  A calculator in humanoid form. He's cold, clinical, devious,
• 3:25:17
  ingenious. They're both played like they've
• 3:25:20
  been ripped out of the most outrageous JNT pantomime, and
• 3:25:23
  they just light up the screen whenever they're on again.
• 3:25:26
  They're given wonderful dialogue and I love, I love the shitty
• 3:25:31
  look of this story. Much like the tinfoil in The
• 3:25:35
  Invasion of Time, that was a deliberate choice.
• 3:25:39
  Much like the boring performances in the boring
• 3:25:44
  performances and characterisation in Underworld,
• 3:25:46
  where a. Deliberate choice.
• 3:25:48
  I think the dull, tedious look of this is a deliberate choice.
• 3:25:53
  It helps to sell the utter misery that these people are
• 3:25:56
  going through. That clinical, functional lack
• 3:25:59
  of aesthetics. These people are taxed and work
• 3:26:02
  to death and barely exist inside this drab looking hell hole and
• 3:26:09
  they're forced to say things to show gratitude for for living
• 3:26:14
  there. It's just the company or they're
• 3:26:16
  drug to appreciate it. Very Blake 7 again.
• 3:26:19
  If this was a. Visually sumptuous story.
• 3:26:22
  I don't know. I just wouldn't feel that
• 3:26:24
  they're sort of being absorbed into supporting this sort of
• 3:26:28
  repulsive consumerism. I think it's a deliberate
• 3:26:31
  choice. I think it's cheap and I think
• 3:26:33
  they could have done better. But I do think it looks dumb for
• 3:26:36
  a reason. I think this is great.
• 3:26:39
  I think this is a very funny script.
• 3:26:42
  I do think Pennant Roberts direction is a problem.
• 3:26:44
  That go Kart coming towards the camera isn't the most
• 3:26:47
  challenging cliffhanger we've ever had.
• 3:26:49
  But I think the point of this story is basically paying taxes.
• 3:26:53
  Shit. And that's a point worth making
• 3:26:56
  because we all hate paying tax. No, but Joe, but we all know it.
• 3:27:00
  It says there'll be no tax. So it doesn't then.
• 3:27:03
  Pose the question, how do you pay for?
• 3:27:04
  Society, once you have no tax, well, we we basically set the
• 3:27:09
  mob on everybody. But that's, you know, that's,
• 3:27:12
  that's not a progressive position whatsoever.
• 3:27:14
  You're right. You're.
• 3:27:16
  Right, once the money runs out, they then go.
• 3:27:19
  We make it look like the. Soviet bloc.
• 3:27:21
  But what you don't get a sense is this is this is at this there
• 3:27:25
  are grades in this society because of course Holmes has
• 3:27:27
  looked to Brave New World and like the inner party in in Nice
• 3:27:32
  84. But what we don't get a sense is
• 3:27:34
  that the Bishop has a better life than Cordo, even though
• 3:27:37
  one's an executive grade, one's AD grade.
• 3:27:40
  And we really needed some sense that there is stratification in
• 3:27:44
  this society, and that's why the mob become kind of like
• 3:27:48
  toothless Crohn's at the foot of the guillotine, looking to kill
• 3:27:51
  their betters because it's all the same.
• 3:27:55
  Haid's office has got some Knick knacks, and of course he does
• 3:27:57
  have luxuries of eating Raspberry leaf, but you need
• 3:28:00
  more of that. And the money just isn't there
• 3:28:02
  for. And the way this sets the way
• 3:28:04
  it's structured, it precludes that possibility.
• 3:28:06
  So you're right. But you needed something to show
• 3:28:09
  how this society works beyond just paying taxes.
• 3:28:12
  You can't get around size point, that opening shop, which we're
• 3:28:15
  always told, oh, it's meant to evoke 1980.
• 3:28:17
  It just looks shit. It's like it's that little hole
• 3:28:21
  in the wall. She can't even.
• 3:28:22
  Get her face in it Can't. Find that I mean.
• 3:28:26
  Sandifer. If you look at TARDIS and
• 3:28:29
  rhetoric says that it's Homes that is angry about what
• 3:28:32
  capitalism has done and that Cord Cordo's father's body
• 3:28:36
  weight isn't even enough to pay for his death tax and Cord is
• 3:28:38
  prepared to kill himself and all that's right.
• 3:28:40
  But the because because it's just a series of sketches and
• 3:28:43
  because they can't go as dark as they'd like, but they go as dark
• 3:28:48
  as they can. But then you it's kind of
• 3:28:51
  outweigh. I mean, I think, I think
• 3:28:52
  because. It's like 2.
• 3:28:54
  Different stories squeezed together Hayes and and the
• 3:28:57
  collector and then this kind of the mass of humanity and and
• 3:29:00
  Chuck him off the roof. That's the most totally
• 3:29:02
  inconsistent where you take it. Here's Kenneth Williams look and
• 3:29:05
  then you lock lock him off a 300 foot building.
• 3:29:08
  It's very strange, but like I would never contradict.
• 3:29:11
  Certainly not you, Possibly you. Can.
• 3:29:14
  Possibly not Elizabeth Sandy, who I think is incredibly
• 3:29:17
  irritating. Just pretend I said it.
• 3:29:21
  No, look at you. I couldn't.
• 3:29:22
  Do it but I. Do think, I think I do think
• 3:29:25
  there is a possibility to intellectualise Doctor Who a
• 3:29:27
  little too much and forget that it's a piece of entertainment
• 3:29:30
  that's and nobody could say to me this doesn't have wit in it,
• 3:29:34
  this doesn't have great performances in it, but scene to
• 3:29:37
  scene it is entertaining. It doesn't.
• 3:29:41
  What's wrong with a series of sketches?
• 3:29:43
  We. Love sketch shows.
• 3:29:45
  It does also. Have the really embarrassing
• 3:29:47
  scene where they're all standing.
• 3:29:49
  Around shouting for canine, which is just dreadful.
• 3:29:53
  It's so random. I don't know.
• 3:29:55
  No, no, no, you know what? I'm not going.
• 3:29:57
  To convince you, I like the. Sadistic edge of this.
• 3:29:58
  Though I like the fact that it does genuinely give me belly
• 3:30:01
  laughs and the whole time I'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact
• 3:30:04
  that I'm laughing. It's the same way with Rob
• 3:30:07
  Shearman's best work. He does exactly the same thing
• 3:30:09
  with me, makes me feel uncomfortable and I'm sort of
• 3:30:13
  laughing at the same time. There's a bit where Gavra Hayde
• 3:30:16
  says something and then pokesmon in a private, like a personal
• 3:30:20
  place. And it's really the line is
• 3:30:22
  funny and the movement is really discomforting and the whole
• 3:30:26
  story saw that and the Mark Cosmo.
• 3:30:28
  And I do like the fact that the end, the doctor just goes off
• 3:30:31
  and leaves these dreadful people in charge.
• 3:30:33
  It's a bit like Varos and a few other stories you could mention,
• 3:30:36
  because it's like, well, yeah, maybe there are no easy answers
• 3:30:38
  and sometimes you just got to go.
• 3:30:39
  What's he going to do, hang around and sort out the entire
• 3:30:42
  government here? He's not the moral arbiter of
• 3:30:44
  the universe, after all. He's done his job, he's gone.
• 3:30:47
  I like it, but I've been amazing.
• 3:30:49
  Season 16, though, wouldn't it? The whole thing set on Pluto as
• 3:30:51
  the Doctor tried to. Introduce legislative democracy.
• 3:30:54
  Imagine the kids walking. Go for it, Big Finish.
• 3:31:03
  But also as well also as well. It does feel different to
• 3:31:07
  anything. That's come before as well.
• 3:31:09
  They're still trying to do new things and I do like that.
• 3:31:13
  But anyway, it's full of bin. It is.
• 3:31:16
  So the sun. Makers fall.
• 3:31:18
  We have done our job and. It's time for you to cue the
• 3:31:21
  Camp Music, Joe. For Round 2.
• 3:31:24
  I might just do the music from the end of part 4 of Invasion of
• 3:31:27
  Time over and. Over again, it doesn't actually
• 3:31:30
  exist, which is amazing. So there we go.
• 3:31:33
  Feel like anything could happen here.
• 3:31:35
  It really could. I've lost.
• 3:31:37
  Track of who's going through so. Our stories.
• 3:31:40
  Going through our horror. Fan rock Boo.
• 3:31:45
  Visible enemy. Visible enemy Image of the
• 3:31:49
  Fendile. And.
• 3:31:51
  Invasion of time. Yeah, you just play for the win
• 3:31:55
  an interesting. Bunch.
• 3:32:00
  So. Let me get the randomizer.
• 3:32:02
  Ready and here we go. Right.
• 3:32:09
  Our first match is Horror Fang Rock versus Image of the Fendal.
• 3:32:18
  Oh yes, and let's. Go.
• 3:32:24
  To Luke, even though we know, yeah, that makes sense.
• 3:32:30
  It's definitely image of the. Fendal Good morning, ladies.
• 3:32:34
  Good morning, ladies. Joe, it's like this.
• 3:32:39
  Surprisingly, image of. The Fendal for.
• 3:32:41
  Me as well. Because even.
• 3:32:43
  Though I think. Horrify Rock hasn't foods of
• 3:32:46
  great character moments in it. I just think the concepts in the
• 3:32:50
  image of the Fender are more interesting to explore.
• 3:32:53
  Oh, Paul, it was the Fender. Wow.
• 3:32:59
  Yes, enough. Being horrifying rock.
• 3:33:02
  Well, I was going to be. The outlier outlaw and go for
• 3:33:05
  horrifying. Rock, which I do genuinely
• 3:33:07
  really enjoy, I thought was in your top three.
• 3:33:11
  It is, yeah. He's playing the game, Luke.
• 3:33:15
  He's played the game. Remember how?
• 3:33:16
  Much he hated. Daleks in Manhattan and yet
• 3:33:18
  still voted it through in the end.
• 3:33:20
  He's an agent of Chaos, the season official.
• 3:33:24
  You're sacrificing fan rock for something.
• 3:33:26
  Else I. Suspect.
• 3:33:29
  I want Brake and Dave Martin to clean up every time they're.
• 3:33:34
  On I've been so worried. For.
• 3:33:36
  Four hours that fun Rock's going to win this thing and.
• 3:33:39
  It's like straight away my gift to you, Luke.
• 3:33:41
  It's my gift. That's the magic of Strictly.
• 3:33:46
  Whatever you want. Whatever you want.
• 3:33:49
  Although I. Would like to add that now,
• 3:33:51
  Toby. Haydock has added.
• 3:33:52
  All of us to his hit list. Apart from me, oh of.
• 3:33:57
  Course, yes, one of us is going. To come through this, no one's
• 3:34:03
  coming through of any dignity. However, I'm.
• 3:34:07
  I'm wearing a core jacket and a. Cardigan so I'm.
• 3:34:11
  And I've done my collapse to look a bit like Capaldi, so I'm
• 3:34:13
  dignity personified. Absolutely.
• 3:34:16
  As someone else who owns a core jacket, I quite.
• 3:34:19
  Understand and it's green. As well so.
• 3:34:24
  Our second. Round.
• 3:34:26
  Of choices. The.
• 3:34:32
  Invisible enemy versus image of. The Fender hole?
• 3:34:37
  Easy. The invisible enemy for the win.
• 3:34:41
  Invisible enemy contact has been made.
• 3:34:46
  And. I'm going to go 2nd and.
• 3:34:49
  I despite the spookiness and the music and the the wonderful
• 3:34:56
  characters, I'm going to go for the sheer.
• 3:34:58
  Joy that. Is invisible enemy Paul Vandal?
• 3:35:10
  I I said it earlier, didn't I? I just love invisible.
• 3:35:13
  Enemy without a doubt the best of the season.
• 3:35:16
  I think you say it so it's invisible.
• 3:35:18
  Enemy all right. Well, we're down to our.
• 3:35:23
  Final 2. Justice.
• 3:35:26
  For all. And it's the the.
• 3:35:30
  Two other Eyes stories are fighting it out.
• 3:35:33
  We've got the invisible enemy versus the invasion of time, I
• 3:35:38
  think. I think this is really hard.
• 3:35:40
  I actually. Well, should I take the first
• 3:35:44
  one on this? People, they were fucking nuts.
• 3:35:48
  Are our. Cunts doing.
• 3:35:50
  This now? Oh.
• 3:35:53
  You've wrecked your own. Podcast here, now horror Fang
• 3:35:56
  Rock voted. Out and it's going to be
• 3:35:57
  Invasion of Time, even though we know the last two episodes of
• 3:36:00
  shit. What?
• 3:36:02
  Oh is it? Let's find out.
• 3:36:04
  Oh shit. It's not Underworld though.
• 3:36:08
  It's not Underworld. It's not.
• 3:36:10
  Underworld did fall. First, unbelievably free.
• 3:36:14
  If you were against the sun makers madness.
• 3:36:17
  Well, that's the game. Well, we've got some choices.
• 3:36:21
  To make we do so. As I said, it's.
• 3:36:23
  Invisible enemy versus invasion. Of time and I am going to go for
• 3:36:29
  the sheer joy. As I said right from the start,
• 3:36:32
  Invasion of Time is my favorite, and Lord production and all, I
• 3:36:38
  think this is a really, really great story.
• 3:36:41
  It's epic. It's a proper season closure.
• 3:36:45
  It shouldn't have been made. They did make it.
• 3:36:48
  It's got the best cliffhanger of the whole season in episode 4.
• 3:36:53
  It's got Tom at his finest at really great performance.
• 3:36:59
  It's got Canine coming to the fore for the first time.
• 3:37:02
  Written really well. Yeah, it's Invasion of Time for
• 3:37:07
  me. I mean, those are all.
• 3:37:08
  Great points that you just made. But the invisible enemy?
• 3:37:11
  That I'm going to vote for has got Tom Baker being shrunk down
• 3:37:15
  and exploring his own brain. That's that's as a concept
• 3:37:20
  cannot be beaten. No, I I'm not just being
• 3:37:23
  irritated by voting for Invisible Enemy in the finale.
• 3:37:27
  I genuinely think this is kicking Doctor Who in another
• 3:37:30
  direction while still looking back at what we've done before.
• 3:37:35
  And there's some verve to this. Yeah, some of it doesn't work
• 3:37:38
  the same with Invasion of Time, but some of it really works
• 3:37:42
  well. They're figuring out what to do
• 3:37:44
  with Doctor Who in this mad, insane outer space exploration
• 3:37:49
  and it just kicks from 1 episode to the other.
• 3:37:52
  I put on episode 1 and I always watch free to episode 4.
• 3:37:56
  Invasion of Time I put on episode 1 and I stopped watching
• 3:38:00
  at episode 4 so the invisible enemy for the win for me.
• 3:38:05
  Just As for the. Nucleus of the swarm.
• 3:38:09
  Paul, where are you going? Silence.
• 3:38:18
  I gained Invasion of Time because I really.
• 3:38:23
  Think Graham Williams deserves the RE evaluation he's been
• 3:38:28
  experiencing for years, and I think Reed deserves it as well.
• 3:38:31
  It's not as good as Invisible Enemy, but that's where I'm
• 3:38:34
  going with it anyway. So invasion time.
• 3:38:36
  Oh, this all hinges on on Luke Malloy.
• 3:38:41
  The insanity of Luke Malloy's. Opinions over the four?
• 3:38:45
  Hours, especially when we started talking about the
• 3:38:47
  invasion. Of time.
• 3:38:48
  It's just it's just been living there, you know, just up here
• 3:38:53
  and I know I said invisible any was best this season, but I was
• 3:38:56
  also saying it was the best and most innovative thing we've seen
• 3:39:00
  up until that point. The invasion of time comes after
• 3:39:03
  that. And, and I do love that it's
• 3:39:12
  doing that. Big new Who finale for the first
• 3:39:16
  time pretty much. Oh I'm so torn.
• 3:39:19
  Do you go with the absolute? That.
• 3:39:22
  Joyride Voyage in space, that's the invisible enemy.
• 3:39:26
  Or which would put as a draw. What do I just go for?
• 3:39:30
  The out and out winner because it feels like a strong champion.
• 3:39:35
  The Invasion of Time, because yeah, it's got a lot of bad
• 3:39:38
  stuff in it, but we've also labeled named all the good stuff
• 3:39:42
  that's in it. And I feel like there's so many
• 3:39:44
  good things. There's more good things in that
• 3:39:46
  than there are good things. And quite a lot of the other
• 3:39:47
  stories. It's just that there's also more
• 3:39:49
  bad things in it than there are quite a lot of the other
• 3:39:51
  stories. They're both like, they're both
• 3:39:54
  madly experimental. Stories.
• 3:39:56
  Yeah, definitely. Yeah, if I was to.
• 3:40:00
  If I was to go to the shelf. Right now I want.
• 3:40:02
  To watch one it would be. The invasion of time.
• 3:40:05
  So I'm going to say the invasion and.
• 3:40:10
  So the Season 15. Strictly winner.
• 3:40:14
  Is the invasion of time. You are so happy with that, are
• 3:40:18
  you? I am denied.
• 3:40:21
  Justice after. The Season 9 travesty, I feel
• 3:40:25
  like that's the most successful. And satisfying ending to a
• 3:40:28
  strictly. Yet, oh, I'm satisfied.
• 3:40:33
  Barusa. Do the.
• 3:40:37
  Music and then. So I can punch the air in
• 3:40:40
  triumph and do a freeze. Frame.
• 3:40:41
  Yeah, that's the well Tata. Everybody.
• 3:40:48
  Even the even. The Sonic screwdriver.
• 3:40:50
  Can't get over strictly. Decline in the in the charts
• 3:40:53
  after this one. I think lots of people would
• 3:40:57
  agree. Lots of people would.
• 3:41:00
  Disagree. I couldn't have dreamt of a.
• 3:41:02
  Better outcome than invisible enemy versus invasion.
• 3:41:05
  Of time I could not so strictly, I think.
• 3:41:08
  I think there's some lessons to come out of this episode.
• 3:41:10
  And that is obviously there's three.
• 3:41:12
  People here, I had a complete 1AE when I watch these episodes
• 3:41:16
  back, there's two people here that already loved this and
• 3:41:18
  there's a person here who came in wanting to hate this and
• 3:41:21
  actually said far more positive things.
• 3:41:24
  Absolutely, I take it back. There's no way this is bad as
• 3:41:28
  some. Of the the 80 seasons.
• 3:41:30
  There's no way. The more I've talked about the
• 3:41:32
  more like vivid images come to mind and stuff.
• 3:41:35
  I fucking love season 15. It's great.
• 3:41:38
  Let's consider this. Just turn around at the night.
• 3:41:41
  A redemptive. Therapy session.
• 3:41:43
  Can we get? On the world, back out the bin.
• 3:41:48
  We're not going through all that again.
• 3:41:51
  Well, I suppose we better. Find out where these people,
• 3:41:53
  good people, are. Online.
• 3:41:57
  Luke Malloy. I.
• 3:42:02
  Am living on Twitter at Lost under score.
• 3:42:04
  Gallifrey and appearing on many people's podcasts as per the
• 3:42:11
  last time he appeared on my podcast, I had a spike.
• 3:42:14
  In lessons about 15 times higher than I've ever before.
• 3:42:20
  And that was for the Keys of Baroness Episode 1.
• 3:42:23
  What was going on there, Luke? That must have been a little
• 3:42:26
  accident on Apple or something that.
• 3:42:29
  What's this twat going to think about Hartner was probably what?
• 3:42:33
  Brought them all to you. And Paul where?
• 3:42:38
  Can we find you? I'm on Blue Sky because.
• 3:42:41
  I'm a bleeding heart. Find a.
• 3:42:43
  Lefty so I've abandoned Twitter because Elon Musk had cunt so
• 3:42:47
  Elj Quinn at dot B sky dot social.
• 3:42:51
  I've got a little viewed YouTube channel Paulkins Mind Jump Dump
• 3:42:55
  that Daniel Bronson was very nice about in his It's great
• 3:42:59
  people check out if you if you've liked what you've heard
• 3:43:02
  tonight, check it. Out I've also got the the
• 3:43:05
  YouTube channel for the. Let's get it right, the
• 3:43:08
  Chichester Centre for Fairy Tale Fantasy and Speculative
• 3:43:11
  Fictions, which is my day job. There's some Doctor Who related
• 3:43:14
  stuff on there and there's there's 15 years worth of videos
• 3:43:18
  there. So if you're into fairy tales
• 3:43:19
  and fantasies, there's lots of stuff there.
• 3:43:21
  I was on Jim Allenby before Christmas, so I'm in what's in
• 3:43:24
  the box. They're talking about UK gold
• 3:43:26
  and TV programs that I described as better than Doctor Who, and
• 3:43:30
  Joe lets me loose on this occasionally.
• 3:43:32
  So you can go back to Joe's backlist.
• 3:43:34
  I'm on in a couple of weeks, aren't I?
• 3:43:35
  So, you know, if you like, if you like.
• 3:43:38
  In the Forest of the Night, he's doing the tail end of Series 8.
• 3:43:44
  And he's going to. Tell me all the reasons why
• 3:43:46
  Clara Oswald's the best thing since.
• 3:43:48
  Sliced. Bread, Clara Oswald is awesome.
• 3:43:51
  And you? Know knew who's companions?
• 3:43:55
  Have come close. To the greatness of Louise
• 3:43:57
  Jameson I'm just saying Louise Jameson Tenko obviously she
• 3:44:01
  pisses about in EastEnders, but she goes from this shit to doing
• 3:44:05
  Shakespeare back to Shakespeare. So, you know, that tells you
• 3:44:08
  serious acting and we we've spoken more about Louise Jameson
• 3:44:11
  this evening. We have and Tom Baker, who's
• 3:44:13
  told us a lot about her and she's still a.
• 3:44:17
  Fantastic ambassador. For the show, she's amazing on
• 3:44:20
  those DVD extras, although Baker, I'm uncomfortable when
• 3:44:26
  they start going. You essentially killed Graham
• 3:44:28
  Williams, didn't you Tom? And it's not good for a 19 year
• 3:44:31
  old to have like the past Chucks and like that, especially when
• 3:44:33
  Rick passed about Tom Baker. I keep shoving a camera in his
• 3:44:37
  face, don't they? And going well.
• 3:44:38
  What do you think about losing Elizabeth Slayden?
• 3:44:40
  Go fucking hell, that's a horrible video.
• 3:44:43
  They shouldn't have done that. It's absolutely.
• 3:44:45
  Devastating. I want Baker just just rerun
• 3:44:48
  Cyborg. Tom Baker is which is a
• 3:44:51
  absolutely mental. I've forgotten just how insane
• 3:44:53
  that is. Let's have another Yeah.
• 3:44:55
  He can't remember anything, but then I.
• 3:44:57
  Was terribly, terribly. Drunk.
• 3:44:59
  And then I got my name. No one.
• 3:45:01
  Recognized me. And what was her name?
• 3:45:02
  Keela. Keela.
• 3:45:05
  And a massive thank you to. You Cy for stepping in.
• 3:45:09
  To guest coast today. Guest ghost.
• 3:45:11
  No guest host even. Yeah, well done.
• 3:45:14
  So, well, you know, you've always said.
• 3:45:17
  I'm the. Closest you've got to a.
• 3:45:18
  Co host. I'm happy to take that.
• 3:45:22
  Finally, 150 bloody things. Now.
• 3:45:24
  Indeed. Well, the next episode of
• 3:45:27
  Strictly Come. Hamster we'll be covering Season
• 3:45:31
  21, which I thought I was doing. Yeah, that, that, that is worse.
• 3:45:36
  That is worse than 15. There should have been another
• 3:45:41
  way. But until.
• 3:45:44
  That riveting conversation. Should we end in the usual?
• 3:45:47
  Way good night everybody and keep listening.
• 3:45:56
  The ball is so confused, I've never.
• 3:46:00
  Listened right to the end I did. Not know that was the answer.
• 3:46:04
  You can't. The.
• 3:46:59
  The.