Latest / This Jungian Life Podcast / SHADOWLAND: Relentless Pain - the story of Jean Campbell

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SHADOWLAND: Relentless Pain - the story of Jean Campbell · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello, I wanted to let you know about a special
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: opportunity to join me and an amazing group of women
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: for brunch on September 22nd at 1230 in Wayne, Pennsylvania.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: You'll enjoy fabulous food and great company. I'll be there
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: to talk about my book, The Vital Spark. Reclaim your
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: outlaw energies and find your feminine fire, and every guest
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: will get a signed copy. In the process of growing
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: up and adapting to external demands, women often cut themselves
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: off from vivifying qualities such as shrewdness, cunning, and disagreeableness.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: We think we're not allowed to be such things, but
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: reclaiming and integrating these qualities brings new energy for living.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I hope you'll join me on the 22nd if you're
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: in the Philly area. For more information or to register,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: contact Jill at happywomendinners.com. That's jill at happywomendinners.com.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: This is Shadowland, a new podcast experience from this Jungian
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: life that explores the lives of people who take refuge
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: in the hidden places of our culture. Lisa, Deb, and
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Joseph collaborate with songwriter Wells Hanley, creator of I Wrote
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: This Song For You podcast, to bring insight, compassion, and
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: understanding to the obscured side of human experience.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Today, we have a guest. And we are going to
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: launch into one of our occasional programs called Shadowlands. Shadowlands
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: is a subset of what we ordinarily do in which
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: we bring to greater light someone who you may know,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: we all know, they're out there in the world, who
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: has a shadow that is particularly difficult, challenging, painful, that
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: we don't always know about or know enough about. And
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: today we are very happy to have with us Jean Campbell,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: who is a high fashion model and has been for
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: about 10 years. She has modeled for various very well-known
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: brands such as Louis Vuitton, Burberry, and Chanel. Jean has
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: also launched her own podcast named I'm Fine. And her
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: podcast comes from her own life experience, Her Shadow. And
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: it's dedicated to supporting people through various kinds of personal pain,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: their own growth, and raising consciousness. for and in the public.
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  Speaker 2: So with all that said, welcome, Jean.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: Hi.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: And thank you for coming on and being willing to
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: share your shadow of chronic pain.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very, very
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: grateful to be here.
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  Speaker 2: So help us just understand the context and the history
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: of this experience for you.
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: So I suppose where I am now in my life,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: I'm 27. I still have chronic pain, but it's manageable today.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: And it took me a very, very long time to
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: get there for it to be something that was something
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: I could cope with. But not only that, it's served
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: me in more ways than I would have ever guessed
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: because it's actually become, it's become a really, big teacher
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: for me in the things that I have to do
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: to manage it but then also those things becoming tools
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: that come back to me in many ways in my
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: day-to-day life beyond just managing my pain and so my
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: journey I hate the word journey but.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it applies yeah.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: So In the most tangible sense, I had an accident
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: when I was 12, where I was in a skiing
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: crash and a kind of much bigger man skied into me.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: I was very small when I was 12. And I
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: flew about 10 meters through the air and I ripped
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: my subscapularis muscles, tendons and ligaments off my shoulder with
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: a chunk of my growth plate. And it took a
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: long time to And fortunately, I was able to get
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: surgery to kind of correct that. And in the process
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: of that accident, I had knocked the right side of
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: my body. So I already had a pre-existing genetic condition
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: called hip dysplasia. But in the accident, it kind of
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: sped up the rate at which that presented itself. So
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: what happened is I started... I had the shoulder surgery
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: at 13 and that was kind of quite a strange
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: experience that I hadn't. I didn't really ever feel very
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: connected to what was going on at the time, I
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: don't think, because I was quite dedicated in school. I
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: wanted to be fine, hence the name of my podcast.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: And that kind of just entailed... Well, it was quite
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: a big operation and I had an allergic reaction in hospital. Oh,
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: my gosh. The morphine drip wasn't delivering and then it
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: all kind of came at once and then I had
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: an allergic reaction and there was an adrenaline shot, which
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: was pretty intense.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, boy.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: Jeez. But that was kind of, I suppose, in a way,
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  Speaker 4: in my mind, that part of the story almost feels, like, irrelevant. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Because the shoulder injury was an accident that was able
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: to be fixed. But what came after was the presentation
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: of ongoing issues. So at 14, I started experiencing pain
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: when I was walking and kind of looked at it
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  Speaker 4: in a way of like having a paper cut or something.
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  Speaker 4: I didn't take it seriously at all. And in other words,
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  Speaker 4: ignored it. I didn't even recognize it as pain. I
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: just started kind of limping. And then after a while,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: I remember I did this big expedition when I was
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: 15 and I really struggled to walk towards the later
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: stages of the day. And, and then that, that kind
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: of progressed and it became very difficult for me to
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  Speaker 4: walk at all. And I went to go and have
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: MRI scans and a number of scans basically. And again,
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: it seemed to take quite a while to diagnose. And
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: eventually what transpired is that I had hip dysplasia, which
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: is actually quite a normal thing, relatively speaking. A lot
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: of the time babies are diagnosed with hip dysplasia at
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: birth and then they'll be put in a cast.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Say what hip dysplasia is for people who might not know.
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  Speaker 4: So hip dysplasia is essentially where the coverage... on your
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: hip socket is deficient. So your hip socket is meant
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  Speaker 4: to cover 30%, 25 to 30% of your, of the
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: ball going into your hip socket. And mine was covering
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: 11% on the right side of my, on my right hip.
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: And so I went to the doctor and, and they said, well,
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: you have hip dysplasia and you, you know, you can
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: do one of two things. Either you can have a
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: hip replacement, but you'll have to have your hips replaced
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: routinely because at that time, I would have had to
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: have them replaced every eight years, which would be a
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: lot for a 16-year-old. But he said the best route
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: would be to re-break and readjust my pelvis. So they
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: broke my pelvis. Well, firstly, I waited for my growth
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: plates to fuse. because I couldn't have the operation before
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  Speaker 4: I'd kind of finished the most part of my growing. And,
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: and so, yeah, they, I then finished my GCSEs and
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: then had the surgery at 16, where they broke my
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: pelvis in three places and adjusted it and, and put
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: it back together with three six inch screws and then
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: following that, I had to do a lot of it,
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: I had to learn to walk again, basically. And that
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: involved a great deal of hydrotherapy, because you can't put
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: very much weight on, on broken bones, of course, but
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: then you need to put some weight on it for
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: it to encourage the bone to grow back. I spent
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: a month on bed rest slash in a wheelchair.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: As a 16-year-old.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And then it took another two months fully on
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: crutches and a third month kind of coming off crutches.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: And I suppose the thing that was difficult was that
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: that was kind of meant to be the end. And
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  Speaker 4: I'd always been super sporty and used that as, I
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: say used, but I kind of, it was something that
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: was in my bones to be, it offered this real
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: sense of freedom, which was kind of taken away from
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: me when I was kind of broken actually by that
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: operation and The thing is, I thought that that was
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  Speaker 4: the end of it. And then it took a year
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  Speaker 4: and a half for the bone to be fully healed
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  Speaker 4: and for me to walk normally, basically. And by that time,
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: my left side had started getting worse. And I didn't
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  Speaker 4: know at the time, but my left side had 12% coverage.
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  Speaker 4: So it wasn't much better than the right side. It
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  Speaker 4: was really difficult actually because I finished my A-levels and
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  Speaker 4: I kind of, up until that point, had been very
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  Speaker 4: committed academically and always wanted to do well. I'm dyslexic
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  Speaker 4: and I think maybe had a wish to prove that
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  Speaker 4: I was not kind of different or something. Yeah, I
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  Speaker 4: think having the first operation really changed changed my identity
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  Speaker 4: in a way to a degree because I'd been this
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  Speaker 4: sporty academic person who suddenly didn't have I also lost
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  Speaker 4: control on how my emotions came out and that was
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  Speaker 4: almost the most difficult thing because of course I was
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  Speaker 4: on pain medication and I couldn't move and anyway I
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  Speaker 4: finished school and I had the second operation.
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  Speaker 1: Which was similar to the first one?
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  Speaker 4: It was the exact same procedure a year and a
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  Speaker 4: half later. And so I'd had the shoulder surgery at 13.
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  Speaker 4: Then the hip started playing off at 14, 15, surgery
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: at 16. I had the screws removed at 17. And
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: then the other major surgery at 18. And by the time,
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  Speaker 4: I think the second surgery was the one where I
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  Speaker 4: sort of started to fall into a place of hopelessness, really.
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  Speaker 4: Or I became impatient with the process because I suppose
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: you would maybe imagine that the hospital aspect would be
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  Speaker 4: the difficult part. And it's the more sort of hairy part,
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  Speaker 4: like you're less able, there are aspects of your, well,
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  Speaker 4: a lot of your dignity disappears you can't go to
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  Speaker 4: the loo alone or you can't wash yourself or put
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: on your clothes, et cetera. But it was actually the
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: part afterwards, the lengthy year and a half, which I
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: think was difficult. And so anyway, just to kind of
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: jump forward, then I got to 20 and I had
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: this pain increasing in both hips. And I had more
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: scans and they basically said that there were further structural issues.
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  Speaker 4: So the tops of my legs were at the wrong
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: angle and the ball going into the joint was at
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: the wrong angle. And the proposition was to have eight
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: further operations, which would endure the same recovery process for each.
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  Speaker 4: And I, at that point, I fell into kind of
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: a bit of, I suppose, despair. I felt despair. And
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  Speaker 4: I also didn't know what to do because I feel
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: lucky in that I am able to have these surgeries
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: and I have a really supportive family. But that also
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: was difficult because it's hard for them to understand what's
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: going on. And as I felt myself falling into a
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: kind of darker mental space with where this was going,
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: I withdrew and kind of, I was never, to be honest,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: I was never great at communicating what was going on
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: internally for me. And that, you know, learning to do
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: that has been a huge part of change, basically, for me,
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: has been learning to communicate and speak openly and honestly, basically.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: which I'd always imagined was a kind of burden, but
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: actually it's a way of accepting and therefore moving forward.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: But also all the while, it's funny because my modeling
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: career had actually started almost in tandem with all of
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: this that was going on. But I suppose also it's
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: worth mentioning that Because part of me sort of wonders like,
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: what's the point in telling people about this? Because it's
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: something of the past, but it's informed everything today. And
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: I suppose where I was a very lonely and isolated
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: person once going through this by myself in terms of
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: like the nuances of it. I would have loved to
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: have heard other people inform me about how they navigated
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: pain and getting a better understanding of pain has been
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: so empowering for me. And I think also there's another
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: part to it, which is there are things that are
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: sort of scientific and medical about it. Like what shows
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: up on a scan, but it's very difficult to apply
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: that to how you experience the world and how you
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: live each day. It's a pain is from my perspective,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: quite a subjective experience, but also an experience where if
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: you can accept it and kind of look into the
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: shadow to use your if you can actually look into
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: the shadow or go into the shadow, it allows you
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: to familiarize yourself with it rather than run away from
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: this thing that's with you and turn it into greater
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: depth or greater light or some kind of tool even.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I'm appreciating the span of years that, where this ball
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: didn't stop rolling.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: You know, you get through the shoulder surgery and good,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: that's behind you. Uh-oh, now there is hip dysplasia on
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: the right hip. Okay, that's behind you, but not. Then
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: the left hip and then the tops of your legs
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: and so on. There wasn't an overall understanding. This just
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: kept unfolding like, the goalposts moving and not able to
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: get to a sense of having it be over. And
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of the uncertainty here and the continual surprises
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: of additional physical pain, structural problems, surgeries.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: Totally.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the sense that there will not be an end
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: to this.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really interesting point because When you say
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: it back to me like that, the actual facts of
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: what happened is that my physical body was sort of
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: impaired in ways continuously throughout my adolescence. And having formed
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: my identity and personality as a child, I suppose it
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: sort of felt really confusing. And I actually, you know,
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: what's so funny is that when, when, when you say that,
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: I almost feel it's only recent that I actually connect
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: to that as a truth, because I don't really see
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: myself actually as someone who's like gone, had these multiple
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: physical situations to deal with because something that's, curious about
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: pain actually is that it really brings you into the
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: present present good and bad and and I think to
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: your point about sort of it being never-ending and and
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: and constant actually it was constant and uncertain the uncertainty
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: is almost the greatest torture because and torture is a
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: very strong word to use but when I say torture
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: I mean internally it it sort of sparked so much
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: fear actually growing up and and fear that today still
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: visits me from time to time in the same way
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: that it visit you, anyone, you know, your tax return
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: comes through or so-and-so doesn't get back to you or
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: what's going to happen to my health. You know, you
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: don't realize, you don't realize your sort of dependence on
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: your physical body until you don't have that. And I
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: think also the other thing to say is that as
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: part of fear, almost the opposite or sort of not opposite.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: I suppose the opposite of fear actually to me would
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: be openness or love. And when in fear, which I
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: spent a lot of my time in fear, it's made
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: me want to grasp for some kind of certainty or control,
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: which is, I don't have. And actually, if you are
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: trying to grasp certainty, you will only be disappointed.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I'm appreciating, too, that all of this happened, especially so
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: much pain and so much fear. At a time of
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: life when forming an identity and growing a strong, well-adapted, flexible,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: ego is one of the paramount tasks of adolescence and
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: early adulthood. So this came at a time developmentally where
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: it was especially difficult. Completely. Yeah, and you don't have control.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really interesting observation, actually, because I think
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: the experience of puberty is scary. Because you don't really
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: know what's going on. And, you know, I obviously can't
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: speak for everyone who goes through puberty, but a lot
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: of people that I know and definitely myself, I felt
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: insecure in my body at that time. But also I
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: was quite late to develop. A lot of my friends
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: kind of developed quicker than I did. And actually I
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: had started my cycle of, pretty, pretty close before all
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: of this started to happen.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: And so what's kind of interesting is that, yeah, that
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: formation of identity, I'd always wanted to kind of be
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: good or like be helpful. You know, my family, I'm
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: the oldest of four and I wanted to help. Helping
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: was something that was important to me. But also contrasting
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: to that, I hated being helped. And in some ways,
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: I had a real lack of humility because not wanting help, okay, yes,
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: there's independence, but there's also pride. Yeah.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Part of being fine. I'm fine. Yeah, exactly. I don't
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: need help. I don't need anyone.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: Leave me alone. And I think also, I don't think
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: that you are... I don't think one presents as proud
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: necessarily as a sort of arrogant person, but pride can be,
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: leave it with me, I'm fine. And it's a defense.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: It's a fear of vulnerability because if I let anyone
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: into this, then they're gonna see that I'm drowning.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I want to pick up on that, actually. You mentioned
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: being alone, loneliness. I want to stay here for just
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: a minute because going back to your story, you mentioned
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: that you started limping. When did you say, about 14
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: or 15? You didn't even recognize that you were in pain,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: but you just started limping. And I found myself wondering,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: who noticed? Who noticed that you were limping? Were there...
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: There were, were there adults who said what's going on?
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: I did notice, but I ignored it.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Did anyone else notice?
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So the thing that sparked, you know, a medical
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: investigation or whatever you want to call it with my mom,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: because my mom was suddenly, my mom basically, said what's
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: going on, this isn't normal. Right.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: The fact that your pain is evident.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: You're limping what's happening to you. Right. And my response
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: actually always to that sort of thing up until fairly
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: recently was kind of go away. I don't defensiveness because
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: even though it wasn't like, I had, it's not a character,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: it's not, it's not a character quality to have physical
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: ailments or a decision, but I, it felt in a
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: way personal. So I was quite defensive of being physically okay.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: And I don't know if that's because I had previously
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: had the shoulder operation and didn't want to not be
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: able to play. Or if it was that I grew
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: up kind of, you know, whether it was on purpose
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: or not, I grew up learning that strength was, and
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: I do sort of quotation marks because I think strength
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: has many meanings and talking, it's not necessarily a strength,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: but they sort of never complain, never explain. Um, and
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: just getting them with things. I think I didn't want
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: to be, I didn't want to have problems and I
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: didn't want to be a problem either because maybe that
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: would be weak.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: So to keep with the theme here of, of aloneness,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: because I do think it is a critical part of
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: what Our Shadowlands series is really about is that one
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: of the things that you experience when part of your
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: life is in shadow is a profound sense of aloneness often.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: And so you're talking about kind of wanting to be
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: alone with your pain because you didn't want to recognize it.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: And then I imagine that there's also a way that,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: and this is just my experience in working with people
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: who've had chronic pain. There's a way where you become
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: kind of locked in because very few people out there, well,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: first of all, no one out there usually knows what
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: you're going through because the pain is a purely subjective internal.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not like, you know, it's not like
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: when you're bleeding and everyone can see that something's wrong.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: When you're experiencing pain to the outside world in a
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: very fundamental way, you might look fine. People are not
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: aware of what your internal experience is. And it's also
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: very difficult to communicate. You know, I'm finding myself, by
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the way, and I hope we get there. You mentioned
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: starting to feel pain when you were 14 or 15.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: And I thought, I wonder what that felt like. Like,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: where was the pain? What is your experience of the pain?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: What is your experience of pain now? Where does it hurt?
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I think happens in psychotherapy
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: is that we ask our patients those questions. Not, oh,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: you're not feeling well. No, really tell me, what does
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: it feel like? Help me understand what that feels like.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: But it's very difficult to communicate about pain. And it also...
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: You don't necessarily want to talk about it. You don't
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: want to, like you said, you don't want to be
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: a burden. You don't want to complain. I mean, some
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: people do, but a lot of us try not to.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: So the only way we can bring other people into
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: our experience where we can share it with someone else
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: is to try to describe it. But there are many
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: barriers to doing that. So we wind up being very
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: alone with our pain and and people around us not
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: even sometimes being aware of it.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I'm so appreciating you lifting up the emotional part, the
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: psychological part of the physical pain has all these feelings
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: that go along with it, the despair, the aloneness, and
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: the having to hide it to be okay, especially during
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: adolescence where A persona is forming. We want to be okay,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: keep up with peers, not be dependent, you know, on
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: people to help you walk, to help take you to
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: the loo, as you say. that's the part that's really
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: in shadow yeah it is how you felt.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: Exactly well you both said so many interesting things that
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: just spark actually so much um And I really appreciate
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: your insights. I think the first thing that sort of
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: comes to mind, actually, is Deb, you were talking about
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: kind of character formation and adolescence. At that point in
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: my life, I didn't know who I was. I still
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: don't know who I am. Whoever really knows who they are.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: but I definitely had no idea who I was. I
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: had ideas about who I wanted to be. I didn't
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: necessarily have a value system of my own. I had
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: ideas about what that should be based on society, culture,
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: or the people around me, my parents, blah, blah, blah.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: But because in a way this youth offers so much
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: possibility to and opportunity. And I think part of why
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: I only wanted to show the part of myself that
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: was seemingly okay or happy or joyful or accommodating or
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: hardworking was because I didn't want to be defined by that.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: But the shadow side of that was that I was
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: abandoning and rejecting a massive, massive integral part of my
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: formation and my experience. And I think part of that
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: was that, to be honest, I never really was very
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: connected to my body when I was younger, when I
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: was a kid or when I was a teenager. It
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: wasn't something, you know, things happen in your life that
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: teach you your learnt or core beliefs or whatever about
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: the world. And for whatever reason, I felt that it
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: was unacceptable for me to need, or for me to
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: not be okay. And I think also I had this
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: incredible opportunity as, model, which I definitely lent into with
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: great enthusiasm and excitement and curiosity for this other world.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: And also this persona that I would play every time
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: I went to work because that was my job and
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: I had success and I had independence with that, which
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: was really such a privilege. And I didn't want to
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: waste that opportunity, but When I disconnected from what was
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: truly going on internally, emotionally, mentally, as well as physically,
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, I did practical actions to deal with the
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: physical side, but I didn't pay attention to it. I
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: lost part of myself and that's lonely. You're lonely, not
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: only in your own company without realizing that you can't connect.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: You can't authentically or truly connect to other people, whether
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: it's family, friends, lovers, whoever, because you're consciously or unconsciously
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: hiding something. And that feels like a secret in a way, which...
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: then I suppose transpired and developed into shame.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. You know, what you've said about your experience
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: highlights so vividly the contrast between persona and shadow. And
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: that here you are, you know, these opposites are so
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: vivid in your history of being able to have a
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: career as a model, look wonderful, have that be perceived
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: as something very special and the success there, and then
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: forced into the shadow all of those parts of yourself
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: that you've spoken about, of how you really felt, having
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: to hide things, having a sense of shame that then
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: gets compensated for, I would imagine. you know, by people
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: being so glad that you're there and that you can
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: look so good and so beautiful. And then we get
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: isolated from ourselves as well as from other people.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a beautiful, I'm really sitting into it, Jean,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: what you said about kind of getting cut off from
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: something so integral and And something so important because there
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: was this just part of your experience that you very
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: understandably wanted to distance yourself from. But the part of
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: you that was suffering through that was really in some
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: kind of crucible. In other words, what was happening was
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: really important and you were kind of distancing yourself from it.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: So much to talk about here, but Deb, as you
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: alluded to, I think it's so important to think about,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: you know, persona and then actually what compensates persona is shadow.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: And that I think is one of the really interesting
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: things about your unique perspective, Jean, is that you've really
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: sort of lived both of those in an extreme way.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: So if we can go into that part of the
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: story a little bit, could you tell us how your
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: modeling career began? Was that Was it something had you
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: ever wanted to be a model? Was it something you pursued?
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: This is a world so very far from my personal
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: experience that I just maybe have some imaginations about it,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: but just tell us about that.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: Well, as a, as a child, I'd never, I was
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: always very shy. I wanted to be accepted. Definitely. That
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: was part of, um, I remember that as being important
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: to me when I was little. And I moved schools.
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: I was bullied at school, like a lot of people.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: Kids can be mean. And then what happened, so I
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: went to secondary school. And I was 12 or 13,
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: I can't remember. Maybe I was 13. And I went
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: to this thing called the Birmingham Clothes Show Live. which
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: is a huge warehouse full of sort of things to see.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: And it was all about fashion. And I was scouted
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: there and I was with my friends and I kind of,
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: I was quite surprised.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: So what, just, I mean, I've heard that phrase before,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: but I've never actually known, like what actually is that experience?
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah. What do you mean? Essentially, you know, a stranger
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: comes up to you and says, do you model? Have
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: you ever thought about modeling? I think they gave me
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: a card or something. And I, at the time, remember
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: feeling actually quite embarrassed. I don't really know why, but
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: I'd never, I looked at fashion actually, when I was younger,
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: I looked at it and it's all about this sort
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: of creating these incredible dreams. And it's really the work
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: of imagination and creativity. And I really, I loved Alexander
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: McQueen and I loved Tim Walker, who's a photographer. And
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: I loved, you know, Stella Tennant was a model who
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: really sadly passed away. But she was a really close
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: family friend and I really looked up to her. And
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: so I suppose my only association was the things that
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: I saw in magazines and also her as this cool
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: person who I loved.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Um, so you get, you get this, you know, person
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: walks up to you and hands you, by the way,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: this sounds a little bit to me like getting your
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: letter from Hogwarts when you're 11, just like sort of
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: out of the blue. It's like, come be a part
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: of this world.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: But you, you get this and it's a little embarrassing.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: And what, what do you do?
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: I didn't know what to think. And then what happened
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: is it happened. It's, it started to happen more.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: Kind of wandering around.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Never happened to me.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: There's something about being chosen. Yes. Yeah.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: That felt special and it felt like an opportunity. And
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: I think also, once I had kind of evaluated that
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: it was actually a possibility
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: And then what happened is my
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: parents obviously, well, not obviously, I don't know. They said
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: that I couldn't do it basically because I was too young.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: And I was quite headstrong because I really was so
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: eager actually to get into life for whatever reason. I
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: think a lot of kids want to be grownups and
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: then grownups want to be kids or whatever. But then
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: we basically agreed that if there was an opportunity still
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: available to me when I finished my GCSEs, then I
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: could do it. And because there had been quite a few,
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: there had been a bit of interest up until then,
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: I had the remarkable opportunity of having my first ever
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: shoot was with British Vogue. which was incredible. And it
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: was actually just before my hip surgery.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: The first hip surgery.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: When you were 16.
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And I remember being really so taken by this
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: world and so taken by, I worked with a photographer
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: called Bruce Weber, who was very well established and And
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: he had kind of curated everything from the playlist to
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: the narrative to every single detail was curated for you
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: to live this character out for the purpose of the
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: shoot and embody an energy and a something that he
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: was wanting to capture. And I loved that. I also...
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: felt like a complete imposter. And like, I didn't deserve
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: to be there because in many ways, like who deserves
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: that opportunity. But at the same time, I think because
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: I felt so lucky and like you said, almost like
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: I'd been picked and what are the odds of that?
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: I wanted to, to make sure that I did a
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: good job and, And what's funny is you kind of
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: go from being, or I went from being a 16-year-old
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: doing my exams, swatting away, trying to get my grades,
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: to then going into this very adult world. As soon
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: as you come onto a set, it's an adult world,
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: and the fashion industry is a very adult world. And
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: I'm sure that part of why.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: I think it's an interesting one. What comes first, the
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: chicken or the egg? Was I already someone who didn't
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: want to, you know, reveal my shadow? Probably yes. Did
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: I do something that encouraged me to hide my shadow?
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. But it compensated, you know, that on the
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: one hand, all of the difficulty and physical and emotional
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: pain were compensated for, by the affirmation, the being chosen
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: for modeling.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: I suppose affirmation in a funny way doesn't feel quite,
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: it doesn't feel maybe so true to what it felt like.
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: It put the compensation 100%. I think it felt like
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: this compensation of complete luck and having an opportunity that
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: was not fair.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: So- I want to lean into this just a little
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: bit more. So here you are, you're 16, 17, you're
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: living with pretty much constant pain at this point.
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: So, uh, so I had, I had the, I did
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: the first shoot and then I was, uh, bed bound
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: like two weeks later for a month.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Because of the surgery or because you were in so
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: much pain. But, but even like at the shoot, are
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: you in pain?
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: You know what? It's a really interesting question because I
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: never think about that shoot and think of the pain.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: I think of all the things that I've described.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: But I would have been in pain. Yeah, I would
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: have been in a crippling manner.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: There's this juxtaposition, this remarkable juxtaposition going on of your
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: body betraying you. and you know, you're supposed to be
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: a young woman who's, who's growing and thriving and your, your,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: your body is betraying you and, and, and you're in
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: constant physical pain. And at that same time, your body.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Did you into this?
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: Everything. Yeah. It's offering me a world beyond my wildest dreams.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: And you know, what's also interesting is, It's funny to
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: me that I can't remember what the pain was like
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: at that time because I think it provided an escape.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: And I also imagine maybe, or I wonder if part
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: of why, why maybe I ignored it or tried my
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: best to ignore it was that when I did, it
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: felt like it didn't exist and I was just only
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: existing in this other world. Which of course wasn't true.
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: And when you ignore the pain, it comes back to
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: bite you. Right.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Which, which I want to get to, cause you've, you've
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: alluded to that, that, that we haven't talked about it yet,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: but I think it's really important is sort of like,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: what's the attitude shift. But I, I just want to,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: you know, there, there is a real connection with shadow
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: and the body, especially I think in, you know, Western culture,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: the shadow pretty much is the container for shadow for,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: for many of us. And here you're having this very
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: interesting relationship with it in that both, yes, the shadow
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: is really coming up through this embodied experience. And at
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: the same time, it's also kind of carrying this very light,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: bright persona. So let me go back and pick up
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: something from the story and see what comes up from there.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: So you were, you were told, uh, you had the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: two hip surgeries and then there was this other pain
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: and you were told, uh, there's more structural issues. And
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: did you say eight more operations? Did I hear that correctly?
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: And that's when you slipped really into despair. So you couldn't,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: the protective wall that you put up failed at that
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: point that there, that, that you, you slipped very understandably into, uh,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: into a dark place. And I'm, I'm curious about what
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: that was like in your life in general and did
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: it affect your work and that kind of thing. But
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: then did you elect to have those eight surgeries? Let's
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: just sort of do the... What did you do?
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: I didn't have the surgeries. I didn't see it as
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: an option because it would have taken six years of
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: wheelchair to crutches to operations to wheelchairs to crutches. And
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: at that point, I already... had felt quite heavily impacted
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: by what, you know, the four hip surgeries I'd already had.
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: And so I didn't have it. I didn't have them.
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: And I didn't have them because I just, he sort
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: of said, the doctor sort of said, you know, you
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: can choose to have these when you like. It's, you know,
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: your situation is progressive. you may not have to have
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: them or, but, but in order to be pain free
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: and structurally sound, you will. And I just, I just,
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: I felt really angry. Actually. I just felt like what,
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: what the fuck basically, basically it's my language, but, but
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: you know, you're, you're joking. Like I've had these, these
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: five huge operations up until now and I'm either stuck
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: in this pain or I have to have these eight
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: surgeries and it and it felt like which is the
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: work which is the better of two evils basically and
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: I fell into a state of hopelessness where I didn't
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: I couldn't imagine things changing That's what happened. I couldn't
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: imagine beyond. And I know that, you know, we're encouraged
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: to live in the present, but I think a big
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: part of what motivates you is, especially when you're young
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: and terrified, is thinking about the promise of the future.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: And I didn't, I couldn't imagine things changing. And I
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: felt like, I felt lesser, to be honest. I felt
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: like my friends are. firstly, my relationship with my, my
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: body completely changed at that moment.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Just let me, I want to just nail this down.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: You're 20, 20 at this point.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: Okay. All right.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: So, so say, say now how your relationship with your
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: body changed.
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: So my relationship with my body completely changed where once
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: upon a time it had been this vehicle for freedom.
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: I loved running. I loved sports. I loved exploring with
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: my legs. And I loved my job as well. But
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: it suddenly just felt like who you think you are
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: is not actually who you are now. I unplugged and
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: I dissociated. And I basically, I felt very uncertain. I
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: didn't have the answers and nor did anyone else. I
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: guess the surgeon had the surgical answers, but the physio
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: had the physio answers. There wasn't a clear cut path
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: for me. And I felt ill-equipped to deal with it
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: and to know how to navigate it. And as a result,
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: I kind of had this sense of like, okay, well,
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: maybe I just can't do anything. And I think that
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: the other thing that's sort of, that's relevant to mention
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: is that it began to affect, I suppose you could
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: also say it developed from chronic pain into complex chronic
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: pain and complex chronic pain. I've since learned that. is
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: where consistent pain from a physical structural situation begins to
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: affect your mental condition and your mental state. And it
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: began to cast this shadowy filter over every single situation
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: I was in. Whether I was at work and I
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: would be trying to ignore it, but it was clawing
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: at me.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Like the pain was clawing.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in my face pounding. Or, you know,
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: I would be speaking to people or I would be
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: in a conversation and I would be half there and
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: half thinking about it's not even think I wouldn't be,
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: I w I would be aware of the pain, but
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: then that what would happen with the awareness of the
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: pain is that it would branch out into fear, anxiety, shame, anger, anger, um,
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: all of, all of these things, which I then the,
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: the sort of, it, it almost develops into this internal
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: battle where I had this persona that I believed that
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: I was, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to put
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: on my mask, even though now I think about it,
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: I probably had a very well-developed mask, but I had
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: this persona. And then I had this shadow that was
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: growing and it was bigger than me. And it was scary.
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: And it felt out of control, to be honest, because
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: I started to not trust I started to sort of
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: lose faith in myself and my ability to be in
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: the world in the way that I wanted to be
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: or I'd been able to be at that point because
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: I was contending with this thing that I had no
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: language for. And also in a wider sort of culture,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: I had no one to sort of look to. Not
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: that I'm the only person, of course. We all know
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: that everyone deals with these issues.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: I am lifting up a few things from what you've said,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: one of which is the lack of language, the lack
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: of words to say it. Another is how important it
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: was for you, especially in that first shoot with a
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: photographer who created a story of how important the realm
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: of being able to imagine is.
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: That's such a great point.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: We imagine ourselves, and you lost that because of the
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: fear and the despair and the hopelessness. And so I'm
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: thinking this may lead into, how did it change? How
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: did the pain and your relationship to it begin to
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: move into... Who you are now.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Right. You didn't get those surgeries. So what did happen?
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: So I'm glad that you asked. There are a number
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: of things, you know, nothing is. One thing was that
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: I had these, I had physio. I was, I was
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: doing physio to strengthen my body and I sort of
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: began exploring different ways of doing that physio without it
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: being under the banner of you're doing physio right now.
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: So I started to look into ways of strengthening my body.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: So for instance, Pilates, or I would do these physio
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: exercises that I would also find YouTube videos, which would
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: include parts of my physio. So then it became, it
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: transformed from being this burdensome thing of, I have to
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: do this physio now and I can't move. I can't run.
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: I can't whatever, because I still can't run. But it
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: transformed into this challenge for me to try and become strong.
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: Because what happened is I started doing these doing these
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: exercises and exploring different forms of low intensity exercise that
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: I could do, I became curious. And I started to
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: witness a change in my physical state. Not only did
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: my sort of muscular structure became stronger and therefore I
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: felt more abled which switched something in my mind. It
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: made me feel like I was improving or like something
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: was changing and I was getting stronger. And the other
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: thing that I did was I met this meditation coach.
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: I didn't care at all about meditation to be completely
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: honest prior to this point because I didn't think that
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: it was something it didn't compute to my pragmatic, rational
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: approach to how I could, you know, resource myself. But
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: having come at it from quite a sort of nihilistic perspective,
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: what happened is I started to practice meditation and it
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: freed me from my physical state and and connected me
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: to something outside myself, whilst also reconnecting me in a
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: sort of primal way is how I would describe it
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: to my body. Because what it did is it started
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: to give me a second of peace of mind. And
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: I didn't have peace of mind before. But it was
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: the combination of these two things. And the other part,
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: I also have been, I have had help. You know,
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: I've done therapy and work around this, which is obviously
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: not something everyone can do. But through therapy, there was
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: a process of admittance to my fallible condition. internal world
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: that was sort of crumbling in sort of depression and
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: just a really bad place mentally and emotionally. And through
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: that self-knowledge, you have the chance to get to know
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: yourself and that is positive. And also it's kind of
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: unpleasantly surprising sometimes.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: I'm appreciating your expanding in ways that are related to
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: ego strength and development by reframing the duty and the
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: obligation to do physical therapy into a challenge.
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: And it has growth and change and yes I can
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: and at the same time expanding into something beyond ego
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: something sustaining that undergirds all of us through meditation and
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: therapy of bringing a different perspective into this, an imaginal
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: perspective from an ego point of view and from the
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: point of view of psyche and the unconscious. And that
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: started to shift things. You had a bigger context and
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: a bigger self to bring to all this. Yeah. Yeah.
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: And, you know, a big part of that was becoming
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: willing to accept help and admitting defeat. And through becoming
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: willing to accept help, I was able to learn and
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: I was able to see that I didn't actually know.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: I didn't know what I thought I knew and I didn't...
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't actually have the tools to manage what I
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: was navigating and going from a place of I'm a
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: type a personality and, and, you know, I don't, I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: don't struggle with things like pain and I don't struggle
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: with mental, mental challenge and mental health going from that
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: position of I I'm, I'm fine. And I'm doing, I'm
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: doing good. Thanks. Nothing to see here. to actually i
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: do need help and and i became open.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: So so young young referred to that as the relativization
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: of the ego yep of kind of putting your ego
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: in right relationship with the rest of you and i
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: you know young also said something that's so interesting is
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: that um paraphrasing here, but you're, you're unlucky if you're
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: too successful in life, because then you never learn about the,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: your dependence on the unconscious. And that is what the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: pain dipped you right into is that you, you couldn't
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: just rest into a kind of ego functioning and persona
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: that it was a real demand that you make contact
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: with the rest of you. You know, have you ever
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: read the book by Ursula Le Guin called A Wizard
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: of Earthsea?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: So I wrote that down.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: It's such a beautiful book. It's high fantasy as a genre,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: but it's really beautiful. And it's very Jungian. It's very,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: very Jungian. But I keep on thinking about it with
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: your story. So it follows the adventures of a young
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: wizard named Gedd. And early on in his career, he
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: has such kind of arrogance and hubris that he engages
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: in this ritual, I think it's been a while since
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: I read it, that he's not supposed to. And he
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: conjures up the shadow. I think it's just called the shadow.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: But the shadow haunts him. He spends, once the shadow
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: is conjured, Ged spends pretty much the rest of the
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: book running from it, trying to keep it at bay, running, running, running, traveling,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: going here, going there, trying to keep it at bay,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: and it's always on his heels. And the answer is
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: that he has to turn and befriend it, essentially, sort
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: of show it a friendly face, and then it transforms. Which,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: of course, we know that this is how it is.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: So So the shadow that got conjured for you, perhaps
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: when you had that ski accident when you were 12,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: was this tremendous grinding, eviscerating pain that was going to
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: need you in its strong hands in this really excruciating way.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: And you could have kept running from it with eight
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: more operations. but it sounds like the transformational thing, the
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: new attitude was, it's mine. It's mine and it's going
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: to be here. And let me see if I can
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: come to terms with it or make my peace with it.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: And your story about, you know, the physio about sort
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: of like, well, okay, body, let's see what we can
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: do here. And then the meditation of What happens if I,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: instead of trying so hard to keep this at bay,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: what happens if I'm just with it, even just for
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: a second? And it sounds like that's sort of like
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: the Wizard of Earthsea. That was the thing that made
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: it shift.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think really, would I take having my life
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: without these things? under the bracket of pain. And I
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: don't know that I would. You know, I wouldn't necessarily
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: want to do it again. But I feel actually so
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 4: grateful for the things that I have got to learn
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: from it. The challenges that have acted as sort of
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: brick walls or concrete walls in my way have then
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: transformed into challenges to rise to has been hugely empowering, actually.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: And I think the admittance of actually, it is okay
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: that I don't know how to do this. And it's
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: okay that actually I am sort of not fine right now.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 4: And I need a few trusted people who are going
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: to tolerate me and be patient, who I can feel
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: safe to be that way with.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: And that's the paradox, isn't it? And that being able
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: to accept and befriend the parts of us that are
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: not fine, that are vulnerable and that hurt, and find support,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: enables us to be fine in the sense of being
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: at home with ourselves and being, and simply being who
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: we are and doing what we can.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think, you know, if someone was listening to this,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: who was in a sort of unmanageable pain or they're
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: sort of having this tumultuous relationship with it, the thing
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: that I would love, that I'd like them to know
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: is that it's a huge opportunity. It doesn't feel like
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: an opportunity, but it is. And if you're able to feel,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: if you're able to go into the shadow and get
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: to know it and be curious about it and, you know,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: allow others into it, you can transform that into other
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: things that go far beyond, far beyond the pain being manageable.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: My appreciation, the thing that's one of the greatest gifts
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: is I do feel a real sense of appreciation for
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: for my body's ability to heal and, you know, being okay, basically.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: Being okay is good enough, you know?
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. This has spurred you also to create your
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: own podcast that does give support, information, and validation to
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: all kinds of pain and the hope of a kind
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: of healing that results in a sort of a wholeness,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: not perfection, but wholeness. But would you like to say
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: something about your podcast? How did you get the idea?
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: And what is it for you? Okay, go for it.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: Well, the podcast has been an amazing, humbling, and such
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: an inspiring experience to do. And But I guess my
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: inspiration for starting it was feeling this peace that I
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: have with it. And chronic pain is still part of
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: my life, but it's not my entire life. And I
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 4: don't want people to be alone with it. And I
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: wouldn't want someone else going through the experience to feel
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: like they're weird or their role for not being able
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: to deal with it, but also for them to have
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: access to information, whether that's through the things that worked
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: for other people with these more nuanced subjects, or whether
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: it's some of the experts that I've spoken to. I mean,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: I personally have learned so much from it. It's only
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: my experience that I really have to go on. I
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: can't say, I can't sort of talk for everyone, but
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: a theme that is in every single episode is loneliness.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: And I suppose with I'm Fine, it's about breaking that
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: isolation and connecting people to a sense of hope where
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: they can imagine that things may be different. And I
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: think also a big thing is being open to the
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: idea that that it's not about finding normality, going back
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: to how things were, but it's about changing how they
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: are now into something else, something else that's different.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: That you couldn't have imagined.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think when you are aiming for normality
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: or perfection, like you mentioned, it's... impossible basically.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, so, you know, of course the word, the
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: word that we're, we're really talking about here is acceptance.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: And that once, once you sort of accept where you are, then,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: then you can start to change things. But as long
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: as you're clinging, clinging to, uh, an old ideal or
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: perhaps just your, uh, your, your hope for what you
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: wish could be, that keeps you away from acceptance and
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: that keeps you from being able to transform things. You know,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: you said a minute ago that you wouldn't necessarily want
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: your life without this. You wouldn't want to do it again,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: but you wouldn't want it taken away either. And I
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: just want to lift that up because I think it's
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: a beautiful example of what we call amor fati, which
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: is a love of one's fate.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. That's so lovely.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: This was your fate somehow. And you love your fate,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: even though it's been a difficult one.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, well, I think you learn, you learn
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: to embrace it and it transforms. And something that's always
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: been helpful for me is, and this is not something
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: that I always did, but something that's helpful for me
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: in recent history and also today, is to ask what
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 4: is the meaning of this? Because when you ask that,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: you can try and find some meaning. And it's also
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: not to say that my experience is so, so bad.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: You know, there's so much worse stuff that happens to people.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: And I think also part of why I didn't ever
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: communicate that or accept it was because I didn't feel
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: like it was okay because there's so much worse stuff
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: that can happen.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: But this is your suffering.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I love earlier, you mentioned something about
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: a relationship to the pain, a relationship to suffering. And
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's exactly the right way to think about it,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: that no matter what our suffering is, no matter what
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: our fate is, we all have, we all have suffering.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: Some people have it worse, but we all suffer. And
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: what is our relationship with our suffering? And can we
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: turn toward it and kind of say, what are you
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: here to teach me?
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: Because it's there anyway.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: There it is. So what do we do with it?
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: It's there anyway. And I'm just thinking about the surgeon
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: that said, well, in eight more surgeries, we can fix you.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: The way that many times our culture says, Not, well,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: it's here anyway. And so how are you going to
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: live with it? But we can fix it. And some,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously some things can be fixed and if
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: they can be fixed, we should fix them.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: But I think as a culture, we have a tendency
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: always to think I'm going to fix it. But as
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: long as we're focusing on fixing it, then we're not
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: accepting it. And there, there does come a time when
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: acceptance is the medicine.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that thing of wanting to, yeah, strive
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 4: for a perfection or fixed, this idea of being fixed
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: can act as shackles in itself because you're never going
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: to be okay with the ups and downs that are inevitable.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: And I think also I would often sort of tried
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: to get myself into a condition where it's like, okay, now,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: now I'm good. But then of course the next day
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: is going to be different. And the other thing I
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: think that's worth mentioning is I always thought that looking
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: into your own struggle was hugely self-centered and egotistical. And, and,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: and actually what, I realized having done that is that
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 4: you learn how to talk about your own stuff or
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 4: your own life or you have an understanding of yourself
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: a little bit. But prior to that, I wasn't able
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: to really show up. I always wanted to show up
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: and I wanted to be there for others, but I
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 4: would never really be there fully present. because I was
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 4: trying to contend with this, or I was trying to
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: carry this secret load or this hidden load. And in
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: being able to give the space to allow my shadow
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: in has meant that in my life, I'm able to
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: be there for my siblings. I'm able to be there
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: for others And it doesn't have to be this droning
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 4: noise that I'm trying to quieten all the time.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's the value of turning toward shadow, befriending it,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: allowing it to speak, is that it makes us more alive,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: more able to be present, more whole. It's freeing. It
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: takes energy to keep shadow in the background forever. We
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: have to keep pushing it down, checking the door, make
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: sure it's locked.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: How is pain kind of viewed in Jung's philosophy?
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I don't know that he spoke much
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: about pain, but he did talk a lot about suffering.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: And of course, you know, suffering can be physical, it
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: can be psychological, but suffering tends to be the crucible
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: that transforms us if we can have a right relationship
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: with it. And, and I think suffering, I don't know
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: that Jung says this per se anywhere, but I think
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: it's very much, um, you know, I think he would
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: agree with it is that suffering is an initiation and
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: it's certainly, certainly has been for you. It's an initiation
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: into our own depths. It's an initiation into an awareness
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: that we are more than just, uh, ego and, the
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: most fulsome exploration of the subject in Jung's work is, uh,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: is answer to Job. And of course, Job is, is
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: a story of kind of the quintessential myth of our
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: culture about suffering and, and what to do with suffering
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: and how we make sense of it. You know, that it's,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: that it's visited upon us without rationale. It's not fair.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: And it has to do with what you mentioned before, Lisa,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: of the relativization of the ego, that our rational, cognitive, ambitious, willing,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: planning self is not all there is, and it is
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: often just plain not in charge.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 4: In my experience with pain was such... such a, um,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 4: a blocker to, to growth and freedom within living with
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 4: pain because, because of these, all of these ideas that
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 4: I had about how I should be or what's okay
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: and what's not okay.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: And, and let me push the envelope there just a
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: little bit, because I think that again, you have a
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: kind of unique story because when we talk about shadow,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: when we talk about persona, we, there is this element
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: about how we are with it, but also how we
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: are in the culture. So for example, some of the
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: other people that we've interviewed for shadow lands have been
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: living out kind of a cultural shadow. Um, and, and
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: that is actually not your experience at all in a
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: sort of visible way, what people project on you and
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: you are in the public eye. So you're going to
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: get a lot of projections is, um, you know, you're beautiful.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: You must be happy. Your life must be easy. So
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: I think this goes to what is it like to
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: have to steep in your own shadow?
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 4: That's very interesting question. It's, I think it's, it's, it's
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 4: very challenging to be honest, because having the privilege of
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 4: the work that I do and live you know having
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: the life that I have and modeling and and the
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: things that are unfair I suppose I I feel that
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 4: to sort of earn that I ought not to make
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: it about me in some way and and it isn't
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: about me my I mean my pain is obviously my
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 4: experience but my job as a model has allowed me to,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: to put the things that I've learned and the people
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: that I've met at the service of others, which feels
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 4: very important to me. But I mean, I don't have,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: I also, I don't have, I wouldn't describe myself as famous.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 4: I am definitely known, known in, in my industry, I
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 4: would say. But, and in, in light of that, I
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 4: have wanted to, to show my gratitude or to show
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 4: my appreciation. And I suppose, obviously I, you know, I
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: have a podcast that talks about pain, so it's not
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 4: like a secret anymore and it's okay. I guess it's okay. I've,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: I've had to sort of, I mean, hope that it's
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 4: okay to be both appreciative and grateful and also open
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: because there are expectations or stigmas around what certain people
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 4: do and how they should be. And I think it's
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: quite easy, actually, if you do have a public facing job.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 4: And especially in my case, it's like very much about
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 4: just image. Like I'm not, I'm not, you know, like
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 4: a politician or something.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: I would argue that politicians are a lot about image.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: Well, yes, I agree. That was a bad example, but,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: but known, known for image where the image is, is
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 4: this sort of created by really brilliant creatives. It's kind of,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: one to establish where your, where your, your truth fits
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 4: in within that. Because it isn't, it hasn't felt particularly
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 4: sexy or cool or beautiful at times to, to admit
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 4: my own vulnerability. But I understand from the, other people
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: that inspire me that vulnerability is just as valuable, if
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 4: not more than any, any of those things that are, are,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 4: you know, that they're on the surface at the end
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 4: of the day. And, and you don't, you don't see
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 4: everything from an image. You don't see beneath the surface.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 4: There is so much more beneath the surface.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 4: So I think it's, really important to to know it's
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 4: been important for me to know where it's okay or
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: to be myself basically um in full form and and
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 4: and when I say where it's okay that's based on
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 4: like how I feel is it is it okay to
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 4: present my vulnerability.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: Yes with the podcast, your life experience, sharing yourself with
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: us today. I'm touched by the work of bringing shadow
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: out of the shadows and, and that we feel listeners
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: will feel such empathy for that part of you that
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: has struggled and has accepted the challenge and had to
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: go through all these difficulties as, have the people you
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: have interviewed on your podcast, I'm Fine, that it legitimizes
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: the shadow that we all have.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: And what we can do with it, with ourselves, to
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: become more whole. It's not such a fearsome thing after all.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: We can turn toward it in some measure.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: And Jean, before we let you go, I'm wondering something
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking some of our listeners might be wondering
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: the same thing. What is your pain like now in
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: your life?
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 4: Today, whilst doing this podcast, I actually haven't felt the pain.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 4: The way that it is today is that there are
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 4: good moments and there are bad moments. There are, and
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 4: a lot of that kind of depends on what I'm
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 4: doing for it. If I'm serving it in some kind
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: of way, if I'm stronger, it's better. If my nervous
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: system is calm, it's better. If I'm underslept, it's worse.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 4: If I'm on a long journey or I'm sitting a lot,
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 4: it's worse. But it's a small part of my life
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: actually it is a small part of my life. It's
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 4: part of my life that is sort of, it, it
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 4: feels much more neutralized.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: It's sort of a constant companion, but I'm, I'm using
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: that word pretty intentionally.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. It is a companion, but it isn't
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 4: something there are times, there are moments when I can
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 4: be visited by fear around it, but, but, for the
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: most part, it's just something that I manage and I
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 4: appreciate actually the things that I do to manage it
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 4: because they do make me more present. They make me stronger.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 4: They make me more open. This isn't a story of
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: how painful and how difficult that must be. It's a
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 4: story of how much opportunity there can be through, um,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: the shadow.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: I think we've really heard that today and we're so
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: grateful that you came on to tell.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 4: Yes i'm so grateful to have shared this conversation with
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 4: you guys thank you so much for having me oh.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you too and we will put uh places where
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: listeners can find you your podcast is i'm fine thank
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: you so much we're really we really enjoyed.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: This thank you so much Let's pray. Thank you.