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Prevent Overfishing: How Transparency Can Save the Ocean · How To Protect The Ocean

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  One of the biggest things that I feel
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  like gets overlooked
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  a lot is overfishing.
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  The health of our ocean, you alluded to
• 1:00:06
  it when you're talking about overfishing,
• 1:00:08
  it's really under pressure and it's under
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  pressure from intensive human activity.
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  But despite all of that activity that's
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  going on, the ocean's the
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  least observed part of our planet.
• 1:00:18
  We really don't have a good clue or a
• 1:00:20
  good sense of what's happening.
• 1:00:22
  And that means that decision makers,
• 1:00:24
  they're not getting access to the timely
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  information that they need
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  to manage and protect the ocean.
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  How do we combat
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  overfishing on a global scale?
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  This has been a question that's been on
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  the books for a long time.
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  And the big thing is transparency,
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  knowing where fishing vessels go, where
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  they're at and how is track
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  throughout the supply chain.
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  You know, that's a big, big problem.
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  But just tracking fishing vessels is one
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  of the biggest problems
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  and challenges around it.
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  24 study led by Global Fishing Watch, who
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  we're going to be interviewing today,
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  showed that 75 percent of industrial
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  fishing fleets are not tracked.
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  That is a dangerous number.
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  So I have Courtney Farthing, who is the
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  director of international policy at the
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  Global Fishing Watch, who is here to talk
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  about how we've tracked fisheries and how
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  we track fishing vessels and how
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  important transparency is
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  to the Global Fishing Watch.
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  And we're going to be talking about that
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  on this episode of the How
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  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey, everybody, welcome back to another
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  exciting episode of the How
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  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
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  And this is the podcast where you find
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  out what's happening with the ocean, how
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  you can speak up for the ocean and what
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  you can do to live for a
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  better ocean by taking action.
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  Now, in today's episode, we're going to
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  be talking to Courtney Farthing from the
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  Global Fishing Watch.
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  She is the international policy director
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  based in London, but Global Fishing Watch
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  have their employees or
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  staff all over the world.
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  This is what makes them
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  such an effective organization.
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  They've only been around for about 10
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  years and they have become a major player
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  in helping countries deal with
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  transparency, looking at data operations
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  and how interoperable they are and making
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  sure everybody's on the same standard as
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  well as tracking where the money goes.
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  Who profits from ocean fishing?
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  Like, that's really
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  what it comes down to.
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  Now, that is more of a challenging thing
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  that we talked about later on.
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  But looking at, you know, tracking
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  transparency and fishing vessels is a
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  huge, huge important part of the Global
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  Fishing Watch's mission.
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  And they are working with countries to
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  help that, especially using technology.
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  Courtney talks about the 2025 our oceans
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  conference that happened in South Korea
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  recently and talks about what Global
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  Fishing Watch wanted to accomplish,
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  talking about digital oceans, talking
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  about technology and transparency.
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  And then how that international
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  conference leads into the UN Ocean Decade
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  Conference that happens in June this
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  2025. So we're going to talk a lot of
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  things. We're going to go fishing vessel
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  tracking transparency.
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  We're going to be talking about who
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  profits. We're going to be talking about
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  some of the challenges that are faced and
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  some of the successes that we've had, as
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  well as international conferences and how
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  important they are
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  all on today's episode.
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  So here is Courtney Farthing talking
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  about transparency in fishing. Enjoy the
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  interview and we'll talk to you after.
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  Hey, Courtney, welcome to the How to
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  Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready
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  to talk about global fishing?
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  Hi, Andrew. Yes, definitely. Thank you so
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  much for having me. I'm
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  really excited to be here.
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  I am very excited because look, we know
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  Oceans Day is coming up. Ocean's week is
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  coming up. There's a lot to talk about
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  when we talk when we talk about oceans.
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  But one of the biggest things that I feel
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  like gets overlooked a lot, even though
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  it's on the back of people's minds in the
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  public, in the general public, is
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  overfishing and overfishing.
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  What are the causes? We've seen
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  documentaries on there before that
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  haven't been too great. And there's a lot
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  of data out there to
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  show what's happening.
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  But in the general public, we just we
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  blame fishermen in the fishing community
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  overall. And there's obviously
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  separation. There's a
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  lot of nuances in that.
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  But when it really comes to global
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  fishing and looking at the problems over
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  fishing and addressing it, we really want
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  to look at transparency.
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  And that's what we're going to be talking
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  about today. So I'm super, super excited.
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  Before we get into all that, though,
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  Courtney, why don't you just let us know
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  who you are and what you do.
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  Yeah, thanks so much, Andrew. Yeah, and
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  thanks again for having me. My name is
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  Courtney Farthing. I'm the International
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  Policy Director at Global Fishing Watch.
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  I've been with the organization just over
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  five years and working in this space for
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  a little over a decade, always on
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  international and regional fisheries
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  policies, negotiations.
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  I studied this at university and really
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  have been interested in it since I was a
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  young child. So yeah, really happy to be
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  here talking about it today.
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  That's awesome. What made like since a
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  young child, like for fishing, like what
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  made you interested? Did you grow up in a
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  fishing community or like what made you
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  interested in fishing in general?
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  Yeah, it's a really good question. I
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  think that probably a lot of people, my
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  generation that are British would have
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  the same answer. There was this TV series
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  led by David Attenborough, a TV presenter
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  here in the UK called Blue Planet.
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  Yes. Probably I was five or six and it
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  just, you know, shook my little five or
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  six year old world. I got the coffee
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  table book for the images. I was obsessed
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  and that obsession
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  never really went away.
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  I mean, David Attenborough has that that
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  effect on people too, right? And I think
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  he still has that effect even though he's
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  what and is well into his nineties. I
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  think he's ninety nine. I think I saw.
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  Yeah, I'm not sure
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  late nineties for sure.
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  Yeah, late nineties for sure. Unreal. But
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  he's been definitely a pioneer in getting
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  people interested in oceans and in
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  fishing. And Blue Planet is such a great,
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  great experience. Blue Planet two was
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  even better. It just
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  gets better and better.
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  Yeah, for sure. Now you work for a global
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  fishing watch and some of our members
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  know, like some of our audience knows who
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  global fishing watches. Some of them
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  don't. Can you just kind of let us know,
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  you know, what global
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  fishing does and why?
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  Yeah. Yeah. And I thank you so much for
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  the opportunity to introduce the
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  organization. So I guess the context
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  really, I'll start by saying that, you
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  know, the health of our ocean, you
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  alluded to it when you're talking about
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  overfishing. It's really under pressure
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  and it's under pressure from intense.
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  So if human activity, but despite all of
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  that activity that's going on, the
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  oceans, the least observed part of our
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  planet, we really don't have a good clue
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  or a good sense of what's happening.
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  And that means that decision makers,
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  they're not getting access to the timely
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  information that they need to manage and
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  protect the ocean. So global fishing
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  watches, an international nonprofit that
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  was born out of, I guess, frustration at
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  trying to address those challenges.
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  Our purpose is to transform the way that
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  the ocean is managed. We want to kind of
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  take the business as usual closed
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  patchwork governance system and flip it
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  on its head to deliver an open,
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  transparent global system.
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  And, you know, we're dedicated to doing
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  that by increasing the level of
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  transparency of human activity at sea.
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  What that means in reality is that we
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  create data and tools that we share
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  publicly to support anybody in the
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  decision making process, know more about,
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  you know, what's going on and have as
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  much publicly available information as
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  possible at their fingertips for free.
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  That's awesome. I mean, transparency is
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  such an important term, right? It's it's
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  it's something that we need to see more
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  of it. We talk a lot about transparency.
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  We talk a lot about what that actually
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  means, where it actually gets implemented
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  and how it gets implemented.
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  Governments talk about transparency a
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  lot. But if you think about it, a lot of
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  times governments aren't transparent with
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  a lot of things. And so what is
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  transparency mean in specifically for
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  global fishing watch?
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  So we believe essentially that all of the
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  activity that goes on on the high seas,
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  that's those areas outside of a country's
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  national waters. That's a common
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  resource. And so therefore activity,
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  those activities should be common
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  knowledge because of
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  this common resource.
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  So Global Fishing Watch defines
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  transparency as making information
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  available and accessible to everyone that
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  it affects. And that definition is pretty
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  broad. It's based on one from the United
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  Nations. And we really focus on ocean and
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  vessel data transparency.
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  As you say, there's a whole range of
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  interpretations that it can be used for.
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  But we're looking at ocean and vessel
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  data, the policies and the decision
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  making processes that govern those data.
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  And we believe that all of this
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  information should be available and
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  accessible to everyone with a stake in
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  what happens to that resource.
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  That could be the fishing community, the
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  local community experiencing secondhand
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  impacts from high seas fishing, the
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  researchers investigating trends or the
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  general public who just want to see a
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  sustainable future
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  for future generations.
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  That's amazing. It's so, like I said,
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  it's so important to have transparency,
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  but not everybody uses transparency. Like
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  that's not a common thing in in fishing. There are some there are some tools that we can use, but it's not a common thing.
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  We'll discuss, you know, how we figured
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  that out in the future in in in in this
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  interview. But what what steps do you
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  think people can take or that that just
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  ocean governance in general can take so
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  that we can get more towards, you know,
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  putting in putting transparency to
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  becoming more of the standard rather than the exception when you talk about ocean governance in general.
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  Yeah, I think there are two main things.
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  Firstly, we need to increase the amount
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  of transparent data. People need to be
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  publishing things like their vessel
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  tracking information, the identity of the
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  vessels, where they're authorized to
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  operate, who the owners are. And this is
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  becoming increasingly available. But the
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  second thing that we need is policies to
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  regulate that and to require that. And
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  that really needs to be strengthened.
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  We're seeing a pretty massive impact on the data.
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  And we're seeing a pretty massive shift,
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  I would say, in attitudes towards
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  transparency of ocean and fisheries data.
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  From our perspective at Global Fishing
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  Watch, we're seeing our countries coming
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  to us and asking how they can share more
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  information as they start to see and
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  experience the benefits that that public
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  information brings them.
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  And in a really kind of pivotal moment
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  for ocean transparency at the end of last
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  year, United Nations adopted through
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  consensus. So everybody agreed, which is
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  pretty unusual and assembly resolution
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  that features text specifically on
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  transparency and fisheries,
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  recognizes the role that transparency has
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  to play in sustainable fishing practices,
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  and it urges countries and international
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  bodies to consider ways that they can
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  better integrate transparent practices.
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  So it's really brilliant progress, but
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  we've still got quite a way to go.
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  And so we really need to see fishing
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  nations publishing their vessel
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  registries. That's who they allow to
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  fish, including the details on who's
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  actually benefiting from those fishing
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  operations, not just who's working on the
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  vessels, but who's profiting from the
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  operations, the
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  ultimate beneficial owner.
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  And that gives everyone information on what the vessels allowed to do, where and who's benefiting. So we're seeing a shift in attitudes and
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  more and more vessels publish their
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  tracking data. And if we have these
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  policies in place, those changes can
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  withstand changes in government, changes
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  in personnel, the rules already written
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  and countries can also
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  improve them over time and
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  over time. When we're talking about what
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  we're talking about, the information is
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  low level. So we're talking about ie, the
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  cost of writing textbooks,oof, Isa at the diver, three or etc.isons. Maybe not what you're discussing now. So they look at policy lifefacking, if you're going to recover, partnered with a company you own a business with coupon secrets program is
• 1:12:34
  only getting real, appleamb
• 1:12:34
  to other nonprofit organizations
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  or non-governmental organizations,
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  just more within that
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  country, it's within there.
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  Yeah.
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  And then there's probably other countries
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  who aren't tracking a
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  lot of their phishing,
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  just in general, they may
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  not have the technology,
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  they may not have the ability,
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  or it's just not in their practices
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  or in their traditional practices, right?
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  So there's a lot of different,
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  I mean, there's so many countries
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  you're probably dealing with.
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  It's probably a lot
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  of different cultures,
• 1:13:01
  different people, different
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  countries around the world
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  who are just like, we
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  just never thought of that.
• 1:13:05
  How important is this
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  for Global Fishing Watch
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  to be able to work
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  with countries like that
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  to say, "Hey, look,
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  this is what we've seen
• 1:13:14
  around the world that's been working.
• 1:13:16
  Are you interested too, especially
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  countries coming to you
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  saying, I mean, it must feel good
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  that countries are
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  coming to you and being like,
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  "Hey, how do we implement this?"
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  But how do you work with those countries
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  when they come to you?
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  I assume you don't go to
• 1:13:26
  them, they come to you,
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  and then you work with them.
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  Is that how it works?
• 1:13:31
  Yeah, I guess it's a little bit of both.
• 1:13:33
  Global Fishing Watch,
• 1:13:34
  through all of our research
• 1:13:36
  and the great innovation
• 1:13:37
  teams work that we have,
• 1:13:39
  we were able to identify
• 1:13:40
  perhaps where the challenges are,
• 1:13:43
  where there is a lot of
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  tracking information already
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  and therefore where there maybe isn't.
• 1:13:47
  And we might make
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  approaches to those countries
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  and find out, are there challenges
• 1:13:51
  that are preventing them
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  from using these systems?
• 1:13:54
  Is it a cost issue?
• 1:13:55
  Is it a resource issue?
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  And similarly, we get
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  approached by countries
• 1:14:01
  for specific issues and we might help
• 1:14:03
  them with that specific issue
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  and then broaden our
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  program of work together
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  to look at the bigger picture over time.
• 1:14:10
  But yeah, there is these
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  different systems in place
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  in terms of vessel tracking and the more
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  traditional one is closed.
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  There is an open one that has
• 1:14:19
  historically been used for safety at sea
• 1:14:21
  that's becoming increasingly common to
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  use as part of a tool of options
• 1:14:28
  for fisheries management.
• 1:14:29
  And we're really seeing people embrace
• 1:14:30
  that more than ever.
• 1:14:32
  Amazing. Now, the Our Oceans Conference,
• 1:14:35
  the 2025 Oceans Conference,
• 1:14:36
  just finished up earlier this month.
• 1:14:39
  And it was in Busan, I think I'm
• 1:14:41
  pronouncing that properly, South Korea.
• 1:14:44
  Good. Now, one of the themes of the
• 1:14:46
  conference was digital oceans.
• 1:14:48
  Now, this seems to play right into what
• 1:14:50
  we're talking about here
• 1:14:51
  in terms of transparency,
• 1:14:52
  in terms of making it available to people
• 1:14:54
  technology plays a huge role in that
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  in terms of tracking vessels and making
• 1:14:58
  it public databases and so forth.
• 1:15:01
  And we're in a bit of a revolution in
• 1:15:04
  terms like a digital revolution
• 1:15:05
  where we're starting to
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  see more of that available.
• 1:15:08
  But there's still that open question of,
• 1:15:10
  you know, the role of technology
• 1:15:13
  that has been delivering to deliver more
• 1:15:16
  sustainable and
• 1:15:16
  transparent ocean governance.
• 1:15:18
  So how do you see technology fitting in
• 1:15:20
  and delivering good ocean governance,
• 1:15:22
  especially when it's
• 1:15:23
  referring to transparency?
• 1:15:25
  Yeah, I mean, lots of people obviously
• 1:15:27
  think technology is going to solve all
• 1:15:29
  problems everywhere.
• 1:15:30
  And that's certainly not
• 1:15:31
  Global Fishing Watch's position.
• 1:15:33
  Technology is crucial, essentially, for
• 1:15:36
  helping people to be more effective.
• 1:15:38
  It's not something that's going to solve
• 1:15:40
  the issues on its own.
• 1:15:41
  It's always about giving more
• 1:15:43
  information, better information, more
• 1:15:45
  succinct information to people.
• 1:15:48
  So, for example, you might have a foreign
• 1:15:53
  vessel request entry into a port.
• 1:15:56
  So, say, Canadian vessels are in Canada
• 1:15:58
  requesting entry into UK
• 1:16:00
  waters as I'm here in London.
• 1:16:02
  Right.
• 1:16:03
  And the UK authorities might want more
• 1:16:05
  information about what
• 1:16:06
  that vessel has been doing.
• 1:16:08
  They have two options, really.
• 1:16:09
  They can ask the vessel
• 1:16:11
  operator and take their word.
• 1:16:13
  If they're not sure of some information
• 1:16:15
  missing, they can contact the Canadian
• 1:16:17
  authorities and ask them
• 1:16:19
  to fact check, basically.
• 1:16:21
  And traditionally, you know, you might
• 1:16:23
  have a notebook that has a list of people
• 1:16:26
  handwritten with a phone number of fax
• 1:16:28
  information, email address.
• 1:16:30
  Yeah. And that pretty quickly becomes
• 1:16:32
  outdated and unhelpful.
• 1:16:34
  People change jobs and, you know, is that
• 1:16:36
  a three or an eight?
• 1:16:37
  I don't know. And technology
• 1:16:39
  helps you to fix that problem.
• 1:16:42
  There is this really potentially
• 1:16:45
  transformative tool called the Global
• 1:16:48
  Record, which is a UN initiative.
• 1:16:50
  It's an international transparent
• 1:16:52
  database of vessel records.
• 1:16:55
  And that would provide a single source of
• 1:16:57
  information with all of that in it.
• 1:17:00
  And if countries keep that information up
• 1:17:01
  to date, then your notebooks, obviously,
• 1:17:04
  and who you need to
• 1:17:05
  contact is very clear.
• 1:17:07
  Yeah.
• 1:17:08
  Another example. It makes it faster for
• 1:17:11
  people to connect because you can just
• 1:17:12
  almost automate that process to like, if
• 1:17:15
  I don't know who this Canadian vessel is,
• 1:17:16
  I don't have as much information.
• 1:17:18
  An email could trigger to be sent right
• 1:17:20
  to the authorities in Canada to be like,
• 1:17:22
  oh, so Coast Guard is like, yes, no, we
• 1:17:23
  know this vessel and this
• 1:17:24
  is here's the information.
• 1:17:26
  Boom, updated. It works
• 1:17:27
  seamlessly, right? Exactly.
• 1:17:30
  And there's like less opportunity for
• 1:17:31
  misinterpretation because you're coming
• 1:17:33
  at it from the same underlying data.
• 1:17:35
  So in that way,
• 1:17:36
  technology is really helpful.
• 1:17:39
  Another example that springs to mind is a
• 1:17:41
  vessel might show, you know, your
• 1:17:44
  Canadian vessel, it would be unusual, but
• 1:17:45
  your Canadian vessel might tell me in the
• 1:17:47
  UK that they're authorized to fish for
• 1:17:49
  the tuna in the Pacific Ocean.
• 1:17:51
  Right. But I have access to transparent
• 1:17:54
  tracking information.
• 1:17:55
  And so I can see actually, OK, this
• 1:17:57
  vessel was recently
• 1:17:58
  fishing in the Indian Ocean.
• 1:17:59
  So I authorized to the Indian Ocean or is
• 1:18:02
  there an issue here?
• 1:18:03
  And technology allows you to very rapidly
• 1:18:06
  pull together all of the different
• 1:18:08
  sources related to that specific vessel
• 1:18:10
  and cross check as well as highlighting
• 1:18:12
  who the owner of the vessel is.
• 1:18:15
  So you have the transparency of the data,
• 1:18:17
  the technology, pulling together all
• 1:18:19
  these different sources and allowing you
• 1:18:21
  as the user to choose
• 1:18:22
  where to dig deeper.
• 1:18:24
  Good governance can only be delivered by
• 1:18:26
  the authorities, as we
• 1:18:27
  said, it's the people.
• 1:18:29
  Right. It's the people having access to
• 1:18:31
  that information and saying, ah, OK, this
• 1:18:33
  owner is problematic.
• 1:18:35
  We've had an issue with this owner
• 1:18:36
  before. Yes, we need to investigate
• 1:18:38
  further or this vessel.
• 1:18:41
  It actually is authorized to
• 1:18:42
  operate in the Indian Ocean.
• 1:18:44
  It's just that this database hasn't been
• 1:18:45
  updated yet, but these other four have
• 1:18:47
  and therefore don't
• 1:18:48
  need to do anything else.
• 1:18:50
  It's just it's not realistic that these
• 1:18:52
  deep dives will be made out on every
• 1:18:55
  single fisheries decision.
• 1:18:57
  Countries just don't have the resources
• 1:18:58
  that transparency and technology, they
• 1:19:01
  allow people to be more effective in
• 1:19:03
  choosing where those
• 1:19:04
  resources get allocated.
• 1:19:06
  One and also like the speed at which
• 1:19:08
  decisions can be made to obviously having
• 1:19:10
  multiple databases from each country and
• 1:19:12
  not integrating them as it's a problem
• 1:19:15
  which can be changed.
• 1:19:16
  We know that now, but also the speed at
• 1:19:19
  which, like, you know, we're talking, you
• 1:19:20
  know, our example before was, you know, a
• 1:19:22
  legal example where it's like just, you
• 1:19:24
  know, people coming into a different port
• 1:19:26
  but may not have the information that
• 1:19:27
  happens all the time.
• 1:19:29
  And so it automatically gets updated.
• 1:19:30
  Boom, no problem. But when you have a
• 1:19:32
  legal fishing happen and then you have
• 1:19:34
  somebody go in like a ship that comes in
• 1:19:36
  through to a port, empties out and leaves
• 1:19:39
  probably within a couple of hours.
• 1:19:41
  It's very difficult for the authorities
• 1:19:43
  to even be dispatched or even to
• 1:19:44
  recognize that that is not a fishing
• 1:19:47
  vessel that is in good standing or has
• 1:19:49
  had problems like you said before, but
• 1:19:51
  they can't act on it
• 1:19:52
  until they get there.
• 1:19:53
  Now, I have heard of cases where AIs is
• 1:19:56
  being used or being explored in being
• 1:19:59
  able to quicken that process. And I'm
• 1:20:00
  sure like, you know, data was a data
• 1:20:03
  mining and so forth, like these types of
• 1:20:04
  technologies can help.
• 1:20:06
  Is Global Fishing Watch involved in any
• 1:20:08
  of that type of work where we're looking
• 1:20:10
  at upgrading that technology to speed up
• 1:20:13
  the process where, you know, authorities
• 1:20:15
  at the port can be dispatched in time. So
• 1:20:17
  these vessels are caught
• 1:20:18
  before they come into port.
• 1:20:20
  Yeah, absolutely. That's a really cool
• 1:20:22
  program of work for us. We, you know,
• 1:20:24
  these systems that you're talking about,
• 1:20:26
  they've been in place in many developed
• 1:20:27
  nations for a long time.
• 1:20:30
  And so what Global Fishing Watch is
• 1:20:31
  really trying to do is bring together
• 1:20:33
  those elements and give them to
• 1:20:35
  developing nations for free so that the
• 1:20:37
  developing nations have access to the
• 1:20:39
  same like cutting edge innovative tools
• 1:20:41
  that will save them
• 1:20:42
  resources in the long run.
• 1:20:44
  We have two programs of work that are
• 1:20:46
  directly related to what you're talking
• 1:20:48
  about. One is for port inspections and we
• 1:20:51
  have a tool. You can find it on our
• 1:20:53
  website. It's called Vessel Viewer.
• 1:20:55
  It really collates all of that
• 1:20:57
  information in an easy to understand way.
• 1:21:00
  You can type in a vessel name, a vessel
• 1:21:02
  identifier, a fleet, a flag, whatever you
• 1:21:05
  like. And it will give you very, very
• 1:21:07
  quickly, very rapidly, much quicker than
• 1:21:09
  my Google searching.
• 1:21:11
  You know, five, 10, 15 different data
• 1:21:13
  sources of information for that for that
• 1:21:16
  vessel. And you can quickly scan and see,
• 1:21:18
  okay, these don't match. Therefore, I
• 1:21:19
  want to take action.
• 1:21:21
  And then the second program of work is
• 1:21:23
  similar, but it's really focused on
• 1:21:25
  supporting boardings and inspections. So
• 1:21:28
  Coast Guards and using the same data
• 1:21:30
  sources by presenting it in a way that
• 1:21:32
  helps patrol planning. And yeah, we've
• 1:21:35
  been doing that for a long time and had
• 1:21:36
  some great successes.
• 1:21:38
  That's amazing. That's amazing. Now
• 1:21:39
  talking about technology and vessel
• 1:21:43
  tracking, you know, in Busan, Global
• 1:21:45
  Fishing Watch spoke quite prominently
• 1:21:46
  about the great need for binding vessel
• 1:21:50
  agreement, tracking agreements. What is
• 1:21:52
  vessel tracking and like why should it
• 1:21:54
  matter for those concerned about
• 1:21:56
  effective global ocean governance?
• 1:21:58
  Yeah, so vessel tracking is the ability
• 1:22:00
  to detect, identify and monitor a ship's
• 1:22:03
  location and map the full details of the
• 1:22:07
  ship's journey. So from the port that
• 1:22:09
  they leave from through to their final
• 1:22:11
  destination. And we can track our cars
• 1:22:14
  like this, our aeroplanes, even our
• 1:22:16
  merchant vessels in the same ocean. But
• 1:22:18
  really surprisingly, there's no global
• 1:22:20
  requirement for all fishing vessels that
• 1:22:23
  leave their own
• 1:22:24
  national waters to be tracked.
• 1:22:26
  And we just we can't fix what we can't
• 1:22:29
  see. So without a full data informed
• 1:22:32
  picture, the true scale of the human
• 1:22:35
  activity at sea and all of the impacts
• 1:22:37
  that add up, you know, we can't manage
• 1:22:39
  them effectively. And we can't take
• 1:22:41
  informed or preemptive
• 1:22:43
  actions to address their issues.
• 1:22:45
  So, you know, if you're concerned about
• 1:22:48
  the sustainability of your HADUC here in
• 1:22:50
  the UK or human rights conditions of the
• 1:22:52
  supply chain where your pet food comes
• 1:22:54
  from or degradation of the Great Barrier
• 1:22:57
  Reef, you should care really that there's
• 1:22:59
  no global binding tracking requirement
• 1:23:01
  because these things all add up and they
• 1:23:03
  all equal increasing
• 1:23:05
  pressure on our ocean.
• 1:23:07
  So knowing what fishing vessels are doing
• 1:23:09
  and where allows us to understand the
• 1:23:12
  pressures, how they accumulate and how we
• 1:23:14
  can manage them before they do
• 1:23:16
  irreparable damage to
• 1:23:18
  our our ocean's health.
• 1:23:20
  Yeah, it's really interesting too,
• 1:23:21
  because I think, you know, when you talk
• 1:23:23
  about vessel tracking for for fishing,
• 1:23:25
  you would think that all fishers don't
• 1:23:27
  want people to know where they go, you
• 1:23:28
  know, they have their own special spot.
• 1:23:31
  And how they increase their no take
• 1:23:32
  areas, or they're no like nobody goes in
• 1:23:34
  those areas from 3% to 33%. I think, at
• 1:23:37
  the time, they increased it by 30%. But
• 1:23:39
  they did it using vessel tracking. So when they put time to work with them, you know, you
• 1:23:40
  the heading of the Great Barrier Reef
• 1:23:41
  Marine Park at the time in
• 1:23:43
  early 2000. He came over,
• 1:23:44
  he was a good friend of my supervisor,
• 1:23:46
  John Roff, and he came
• 1:23:47
  over and he did a presentation
• 1:23:48
  on how they increased their no take areas
• 1:23:51
  or nobody goes in
• 1:23:53
  those areas from 3% to 33%,
• 1:23:56
  I think at the time. So they increased it
• 1:23:58
  by 30%, but they did it
• 1:23:59
  using vessel tracking.
• 1:24:00
  So when they put in the Great Barrier
• 1:24:02
  Reef Marine Park, they
• 1:24:04
  actually put trackers on
• 1:24:05
  fishing vessels. And so when they looked
• 1:24:07
  at where they were,
• 1:24:09
  and they looked at what
• 1:24:10
  areas like the reserves or the no take,
• 1:24:12
  no research, no
• 1:24:13
  nothing, reserves went in and
• 1:24:15
  they wanted to increase it, they actually
• 1:24:16
  noticed that the
• 1:24:17
  fishers weren't even going
• 1:24:18
  in and they weren't even going into that
• 1:24:20
  area because they had
• 1:24:21
  that tracking vessel. So
• 1:24:22
  when they presented to the fishing
• 1:24:23
  community, they're like at
• 1:24:25
  first, before they laid the
• 1:24:26
  track down, I remember him telling the
• 1:24:27
  story, they're like, "Oh
• 1:24:28
  yeah, this is where we want
• 1:24:29
  to increase." They're like, "Whoa, whoa,
• 1:24:30
  whoa, why are we
• 1:24:31
  increasing there?" And they're
• 1:24:31
  like, "Oh yeah, by the way, here's the
• 1:24:33
  layer of where you guys
• 1:24:34
  have been. You're not even in
• 1:24:35
  that area." And they're all just like,
• 1:24:37
  "Oh, well, okay, no
• 1:24:38
  problem." It's perfect. So people,
• 1:24:42
  there are times and situations where it
• 1:24:44
  actually helps conservation.
• 1:24:46
  Now that's not always going
• 1:24:46
  to be the time. There's conflict
• 1:24:48
  management. That's why you
• 1:24:49
  bring in that fishing community
• 1:24:51
  early on in the process, but there are
• 1:24:54
  times when it can be really
• 1:24:55
  helpful. Now we're looking at
• 1:24:58
  technology and I know AIS is a very big
• 1:25:01
  part of vessel
• 1:25:02
  tracking. So it's a GPS system,
• 1:25:04
  a very simple system that tracks and I've
• 1:25:06
  worked on that data before
• 1:25:08
  when I worked as a consultant
• 1:25:09
  for the government. And it's a very
• 1:25:11
  important thing in looking
• 1:25:12
  at shipping lanes and where
• 1:25:13
  people are going. Are they a Biden by it?
• 1:25:15
  So forth. And then of
• 1:25:16
  course, are they in marine
• 1:25:17
  protected areas here in Canada when I
• 1:25:19
  worked on it? But there's also a
• 1:25:21
  difference. I think you can
• 1:25:22
  turn it on and off whenever you want to
• 1:25:24
  do, or there's ways to get
• 1:25:24
  around it. And this kind of
• 1:25:26
  goes into my next question because in a
• 1:25:29
  2024 study that published
• 1:25:31
  in Nature, which was led by
• 1:25:33
  and led by Global Fishing Watch
• 1:25:34
  researchers, and I've always wanted to
• 1:25:35
  ask this question from you
• 1:25:36
  guys. About 75% of the industrial fishing
• 1:25:40
  fleet does not appear in
• 1:25:42
  public monitoring systems,
• 1:25:44
  which is insane to think about. You think
• 1:25:47
  you have this technology, not always AIS,
• 1:25:49
  but you have all this technology that you
• 1:25:51
  can put on, but then you
• 1:25:53
  find out that three quarters of
• 1:25:54
  the industrial fishing fleet does not
• 1:25:56
  actually use it. So how
• 1:25:58
  can, like you mentioned before,
• 1:25:59
  how can you track what you don't know?
• 1:26:01
  Like how can you monitor what you don't
• 1:26:02
  know? So I guess like
• 1:26:04
  my question is like,
• 1:26:05
  how can transpandemic technology shine a
• 1:26:08
  light on the sort of the hidden
• 1:26:09
  happenings around the ocean?
• 1:26:11
  Like how do we increase that to 75% or
• 1:26:15
  even more being tracked
• 1:26:17
  instead of the opposite?
• 1:26:18
  Yeah, flipping it. I guess, yeah, it
• 1:26:20
  comes back to that point that we were
• 1:26:22
  talking about at the start about,
• 1:26:23
  Global Fishing Watch's purpose being to
• 1:26:25
  flip from a closed
• 1:26:27
  system to an open one. And
• 1:26:30
  much of that activity to be clear, we're
• 1:26:32
  not saying it's not tracked at all, it's
• 1:26:34
  just not publicly
• 1:26:35
  tracked. So much of that activity
• 1:26:37
  is probably being tracked by closed
• 1:26:40
  monitoring systems. Typically that's
• 1:26:42
  vessel monitoring systems or VMFs.
• 1:26:44
  And that data is shared between the
• 1:26:46
  vessel itself and the flag state. That's
• 1:26:48
  the country that has
• 1:26:49
  allowed the vessel to go out and leave
• 1:26:52
  and go into national waters.
• 1:26:54
  And this is how traditional
• 1:26:55
  kind of more old school vessel tracking
• 1:26:57
  monitoring control
• 1:26:58
  and surveillance works.
• 1:27:00
  The tracking information is confidential.
• 1:27:02
  It's only shared between
• 1:27:03
  the vessel and the flag state.
• 1:27:05
  And the theory is exactly as you said,
• 1:27:07
  Andrew, it protects these kind of
• 1:27:08
  commercial sensitivities,
• 1:27:10
  such as good fishing spots, whilst
• 1:27:12
  allowing the authorities
• 1:27:13
  who are the ones ultimately
• 1:27:14
  responsible to see what the vessel is
• 1:27:16
  doing. But this means if somebody else
• 1:27:19
  like me as the UK
• 1:27:20
  port state, or you as the
• 1:27:22
  coastal state giving a license for the
• 1:27:24
  vessel to fish in a different spot, they
• 1:27:27
  don't know what's happening.
• 1:27:28
  They don't, they can't see it.
• 1:27:30
  So they can take the vessel's word for
• 1:27:33
  it, or they can contact the flag with all
• 1:27:35
  those challenges that
• 1:27:36
  we spoke about before.
• 1:27:37
  And we have seen decades of industrial
• 1:27:42
  fishing now and decades of
• 1:27:43
  this happening on the high seas.
• 1:27:45
  And in reality, what we are seeing is
• 1:27:47
  that flag states are not able to
• 1:27:50
  consistently meet the demand of these
• 1:27:52
  inquiries that are coming.
• 1:27:53
  And we at Global Fishing Watch have
• 1:27:55
  worked with countries where we've seen
• 1:27:57
  these requests go unanswered completely,
• 1:27:59
  go unanswered for weeks, or people not
• 1:28:02
  being able to get in
• 1:28:03
  touch with the right contacts.
• 1:28:04
  And we've also heard from flag states
• 1:28:06
  that have said to us, it's so much better
• 1:28:08
  when everything's public, because then
• 1:28:10
  we're only contacted if there's a real
• 1:28:12
  issue and then we can dedicate our
• 1:28:13
  resources to figuring that out with
• 1:28:15
  whoever's contacted us.
• 1:28:17
  And we've also seen these kind of
• 1:28:20
  unscrupulous operators looking to take
• 1:28:23
  advantage of those issues and looking to
• 1:28:25
  benefit themselves by exactly as you say
• 1:28:27
  falsifying the information they provide,
• 1:28:30
  pretending they're over here
• 1:28:31
  when really they're only here.
• 1:28:33
  And having multiple data sources, having
• 1:28:35
  the VMS and the AIS allows you to cross
• 1:28:38
  check and to compare and to
• 1:28:40
  understand whether it issues.
• 1:28:42
  And yeah, that's so important because we
• 1:28:44
  know like the honor system doesn't work
• 1:28:46
  anymore. We've seen that happen over and
• 1:28:49
  over and over again. And it would have
• 1:28:50
  been nice if it did work and then we
• 1:28:51
  could just trust everybody.
• 1:28:52
  And then maybe there'd be only a small
• 1:28:54
  percentage of players, but 75% seems a
• 1:28:57
  little sketchy. Like, why wouldn't you
• 1:28:58
  want to know where you've been? Like, if
• 1:29:01
  you're doing everything right, why
• 1:29:02
  wouldn't you want to know?
• 1:29:03
  And that's, I think that was what was
• 1:29:05
  scariest to me. It was like 75% of that's
• 1:29:08
  a lot. That's huge. And was it surprising
• 1:29:10
  to the organization? Like, to you, like
• 1:29:13
  just being like, holy cow, like I would
• 1:29:15
  expect it under 50%, but 75, like the
• 1:29:18
  majority, like by a lot.
• 1:29:19
  I mean, you don't even get that many
• 1:29:20
  people. I'm about, you know, I, we had a
• 1:29:22
  federal election here recently and I
• 1:29:24
  don't think we had 75% people come up to
• 1:29:26
  vote. So imagine 75% of the people like
• 1:29:29
  not even tracking their vessels.
• 1:29:32
  Yeah, it was surprising. And I think it
• 1:29:34
  really just reiterated the scale of the
• 1:29:36
  issue and the seriousness with which
• 1:29:38
  Global Fishing Watch needs to treat this
• 1:29:39
  issue. And we use that in our
• 1:29:42
  interventions at the UN, we use that in
• 1:29:44
  our bilateral discussions that we have
• 1:29:46
  with countries to really show like,
• 1:29:48
  you might not think this is a huge
• 1:29:49
  problem, but globally, this really is a
• 1:29:52
  huge problem. And that argument continues
• 1:29:54
  to surface, we need to protect our
• 1:29:56
  special fishing spot that maybe like your
• 1:29:59
  grandfather found or whatever that might
• 1:30:01
  be. But in reality,
• 1:30:03
  that is quite outdated now.
• 1:30:04
  Other technologies, not just tracking
• 1:30:07
  technologies, yeah, have changed so much,
• 1:30:09
  right? You can find huge scores of fish
• 1:30:12
  more quickly than you've ever been able
• 1:30:13
  to before. And so many locations are
• 1:30:16
  broadcast, as you say, via AIS for safety
• 1:30:18
  reasons, this concept of the secret
• 1:30:21
  fishing spot or the perfect fishing spot
• 1:30:23
  that others don't know about.
• 1:30:24
  You know, of course, there are
• 1:30:26
  exceptions, but generally, it's not
• 1:30:27
  really a reality anymore. Plus, you know,
• 1:30:30
  our Global Fishing Watch, as I said, from
• 1:30:32
  the outset, you know, if activities
• 1:30:34
  occurring, you know, in a common area on
• 1:30:36
  a common resource, we think
• 1:30:37
  it should be common knowledge.
• 1:30:39
  Yeah, and it's also it's like, it's with
• 1:30:40
  especially within, I mean, there's
• 1:30:43
  there's also the difference between like
• 1:30:44
  within the exclusive economic zones and
• 1:30:46
  outside, I mean, especially within the
• 1:30:47
  exclusive economic zone, it's a natural
• 1:30:50
  resource for that country, the citizens
• 1:30:51
  of that country should have access.
• 1:30:52
  And then people and organizations such as
• 1:30:56
  Global Fishing Watch and yourself can
• 1:30:57
  come out and say, Hey, look, we
• 1:30:59
  specialize in this, right? We look at
• 1:31:01
  this, we'll take this data and we'll do
• 1:31:03
  analysis on this, we'll see where people
• 1:31:05
  go and we'll give you the information,
• 1:31:07
  probably as a benefit to those countries
• 1:31:09
  to have the specialists.
• 1:31:10
  I mean, Global Fishing Watch is literally
• 1:31:12
  global, you guys are all around the
• 1:31:14
  world, you know, and spaced all around
• 1:31:16
  the world. So you understand sort of the
• 1:31:18
  different contexts and nuances of each
• 1:31:19
  country and where you live and the
• 1:31:22
  regions in which where you live.
• 1:31:24
  So you have that specialist group to be
• 1:31:27
  able to take that data that's available
• 1:31:29
  publicly, provide that analysis to the
• 1:31:31
  country and just be like, Hey, look, you
• 1:31:33
  know, we want to help you.
• 1:31:34
  And I guess at least to my next question
• 1:31:37
  is like, how is Global Fishing Watch, you
• 1:31:40
  know, working with other countries and
• 1:31:42
  governments to
• 1:31:42
  mainstream vessel tracking?
• 1:31:44
  I know we talked a little bit about how
• 1:31:45
  you work with countries before, but yes,
• 1:31:47
  to mainstream vessel tracking, it's got
• 1:31:51
  to be a bit of a challenge because like I
• 1:31:52
  said before, there are some countries who
• 1:31:54
  may not even have it
• 1:31:55
  available or may not.
• 1:31:57
  And some just may not make it public,
• 1:31:58
  which might be a little easier. So how do
• 1:32:00
  you get through that into
• 1:32:01
  mainstream that vessel tracking?
• 1:32:02
  Yeah, you're right. We work with a number
• 1:32:06
  of countries and the most important thing
• 1:32:08
  really is country context. We're, you
• 1:32:11
  know, an international team, a global
• 1:32:13
  team of experts on vessel tracking, but
• 1:32:16
  we're not a global team of experts on
• 1:32:19
  vessel tracking in Senegal or in the UK
• 1:32:21
  or Canada or in Ghana or
• 1:32:23
  in the Marshall Islands.
• 1:32:24
  That country context is really important.
• 1:32:28
  So everything has got to be a partnership
• 1:32:30
  with the governments that we're working
• 1:32:31
  with. We really need to understand why
• 1:32:34
  their system was developed the way it
• 1:32:36
  was, if it's meeting their needs, what
• 1:32:38
  their challenges are.
• 1:32:39
  And we do that through a combination of
• 1:32:41
  learning from the government, working
• 1:32:43
  with them, really digging deep into
• 1:32:44
  understanding how they work with partners
• 1:32:47
  on the ground, with other nonprofits,
• 1:32:49
  with researchers, with local universities
• 1:32:51
  and with people that we hire into Global Fishing Watch.
• 1:32:53
  And we hire into Global Fishing Watch to
• 1:32:54
  work on projects that perhaps have worked
• 1:32:56
  in that country for a number of years.
• 1:32:59
  And a really significant portion of the
• 1:33:01
  work that we do as an organization with
• 1:33:03
  countries is specifically
• 1:33:04
  focused on vessel tracking.
• 1:33:06
  So we help countries to review their
• 1:33:08
  policies around vessel tracking. Does
• 1:33:11
  your legislation meet the needs that you
• 1:33:13
  have? Do your regulations have the
• 1:33:16
  requirements that you need? Are they out
• 1:33:18
  of date? Could they be updated?
• 1:33:19
  Is there a week or a week wording which
• 1:33:22
  bad actors could take advantage of? And
• 1:33:25
  we go to the country and we spend time
• 1:33:27
  there and we go through normally a week
• 1:33:28
  long process to co-develop a program of
• 1:33:31
  work that really looks at all the
• 1:33:33
  different challenges and makes
• 1:33:35
  recommendations on how public vessel
• 1:33:38
  tracking could help them.
• 1:33:39
  But you've got to meet them where they
• 1:33:41
  are, right? You can't be going and making
• 1:33:43
  recommendations for like a platinum
• 1:33:45
  system when the fundamentals aren't in
• 1:33:48
  place. So that does
• 1:33:49
  vary country to country.
• 1:33:51
  And one thing that we have really learned
• 1:33:54
  throughout our kind of last number of
• 1:33:57
  years working with countries on this is
• 1:33:58
  that AIS, that automatic identification
• 1:34:01
  system technology, is really valued by a
• 1:34:05
  lot of countries for
• 1:34:06
  its cost effectiveness.
• 1:34:06
  So vessel monitoring systems, VMS, pretty
• 1:34:10
  expensive and lots of countries, they
• 1:34:13
  have it and they don't pay for it. So
• 1:34:15
  therefore it's not getting used or they
• 1:34:16
  don't have it at all.
• 1:34:18
  Whereas AIS, much more reasonably priced,
• 1:34:20
  much more affordable, whilst it may not
• 1:34:22
  be perfect, meeting a country where they
• 1:34:25
  are, they have nothing, this is something
• 1:34:26
  and we start with them there.
• 1:34:30
  And then kind of taking that one step
• 1:34:32
  further, we often support them to engage
• 1:34:35
  in regional and international discussions
• 1:34:38
  on vessel tracking that perhaps they
• 1:34:39
  might not have been paying attention to
• 1:34:41
  or been able to be engaged with before.
• 1:34:44
  And that's a lot of kind of learning from
• 1:34:45
  others, sharing experiences, discussing
• 1:34:48
  challenges and requesting help from the
• 1:34:50
  international community where they think
• 1:34:51
  they could benefit. And so far, this has
• 1:34:53
  been pretty successful.
• 1:34:54
  Yeah, absolutely. And I love that to see
• 1:34:58
  more countries being interested in and I
• 1:35:01
  do get the fact that there are some
• 1:35:02
  countries who just need to just a little
• 1:35:05
  help to get up above and let's just start
• 1:35:07
  with tracking in general, get the basic
• 1:35:10
  information, which is location.
• 1:35:11
  You know, there's an as it as it's
• 1:35:13
  somebody who's involved in GIS loves maps
• 1:35:16
  and visual learner as many of us are to
• 1:35:19
  be able to see those stories develop and
• 1:35:21
  to be able to see where people are going
• 1:35:23
  and and to find out when people are going
• 1:35:25
  at certain times and so forth and to be
• 1:35:27
  like, look, this is a big fishing spot,
• 1:35:29
  but it's around this area.
• 1:35:30
  Why is it around this area? And you can
• 1:35:31
  really collate a lot of science around
• 1:35:33
  that and a lot of research
• 1:35:34
  around that. So I do love that.
• 1:35:36
  I love that. Now, obviously, vessel
• 1:35:38
  tracking is is one part. It's a big
• 1:35:40
  significant part, especially with that
• 1:35:42
  2024 study that was led by
• 1:35:44
  Google Watch looking at that.
• 1:35:47
  But there's also other things that have
• 1:35:48
  come up in the past where especially when
• 1:35:50
  we're looking at illegal fishing and you
• 1:35:53
  mentioned it earlier is tracking who
• 1:35:54
  benefits from the profits of selling this
• 1:35:58
  fish, these fish, whether they're legally
• 1:36:00
  caught or illegally caught like just a
• 1:36:02
  registry of owners of not only vessels,
• 1:36:05
  but like the owners of the of who's
• 1:36:08
  getting the final profit of it all
• 1:36:10
  because there are there have been stories
• 1:36:12
  have come out that we've covered on this
• 1:36:13
  podcast where we're
• 1:36:14
  looking at illegal fishing.
• 1:36:16
  There was one vessel in particular who
• 1:36:17
  who went through like decades long
• 1:36:20
  reputation of going into ports under
• 1:36:23
  different flags and then being going in
• 1:36:25
  when they finally caught
• 1:36:26
  it, they caught the vessel.
• 1:36:27
  They couldn't track who was to like who
• 1:36:30
  owned it and it was over a lot. It got
• 1:36:33
  into a lot of not only politics, but
• 1:36:36
  there was like organized crime involved
• 1:36:39
  and things like that.
• 1:36:40
  And it's it's it gets very complex. So
• 1:36:42
  tracking the vessel is one thing. It's
• 1:36:44
  obviously a very important thing
• 1:36:46
  physically. It's like the
• 1:36:47
  basic thing that we need.
• 1:36:48
  But then when we track who profits off of
• 1:36:51
  this, how is that how is that research or
• 1:36:55
  that program going as is global fishing
• 1:36:57
  watch involved in that as well? And how
• 1:36:59
  is that where are we at
• 1:37:01
  with that type of of tracking?
• 1:37:04
  Yeah, global fishing, which is definitely
• 1:37:06
  involved in that. I'd say those are our
• 1:37:08
  kind of two. Those are two of our three
• 1:37:11
  big policy areas that we focus on
• 1:37:12
  internationally. And that is because
• 1:37:15
  they're just big
• 1:37:16
  international gaps on these topics.
• 1:37:17
  And so we're talking about the
• 1:37:20
  one that we look at is the
• 1:37:22
  interoperability of data and the
• 1:37:24
  standards of data, much more technical,
• 1:37:26
  but those are our three big areas. And
• 1:37:29
  ownership is probably the furthest behind
• 1:37:33
  needs the most amount of
• 1:37:35
  attention and leadership.
• 1:37:36
  And so we're seeing lots of people
• 1:37:38
  embrace tracking transparency and data
• 1:37:40
  quality measures. We're not really
• 1:37:42
  seeing, you know, country after country
• 1:37:45
  coming forward and
• 1:37:46
  publishing their ownership data.
• 1:37:48
  And in some cases, we're seeing, you
• 1:37:50
  know, restrictions of that data and
• 1:37:51
  tightening of data privacy rules to cover
• 1:37:54
  commercially sensitive information that
• 1:37:56
  the country considers
• 1:37:56
  commercially sensitive.
• 1:37:58
  And it is a real challenge because as you
• 1:38:00
  mentioned, you know, there's so many
• 1:38:02
  loopholes that you're smart unscrupulous
• 1:38:04
  operators can use to their advantage.
• 1:38:07
  They can change the name, they can change
• 1:38:08
  the flag, they can call in one port and
• 1:38:11
  then another and you
• 1:38:12
  know, leave and what happens.
• 1:38:14
  Nobody knows who they are. And then
• 1:38:15
  finally, you say you get to who's been
• 1:38:17
  doing the bad behavior. You wish you a
• 1:38:19
  huge fine. It goes through your courts
• 1:38:21
  loads of work on your behalf. And all you
• 1:38:25
  have is the operator who of
• 1:38:26
  course can't pay that fine.
• 1:38:27
  You know, manning a fishing vessel that's
• 1:38:30
  not, you don't get the fine. You don't
• 1:38:32
  get the satisfaction or the sanction.
• 1:38:35
  And, you know, the owner's not deterred.
• 1:38:37
  They just do it again
• 1:38:37
  with a different vessel.
• 1:38:38
  So we really do need transparency of
• 1:38:41
  beneficial ownership information. There
• 1:38:43
  is a route for it with the United
• 1:38:45
  Nations. As I mentioned before, this
• 1:38:47
  global record has a space in this app.
• 1:38:51
  It's essentially an app to
• 1:38:52
  upload all of this information.
• 1:38:53
  But we just need leadership from
• 1:38:55
  countries to navigate the data privacy
• 1:38:58
  rules interpret how that can be shared
• 1:39:01
  and commit to sharing that information.
• 1:39:03
  And I'm sure that's that's not an easy
• 1:39:05
  thing. You know, we know the process, but
• 1:39:07
  just the fact of just displaying, you
• 1:39:10
  know, information like financial
• 1:39:12
  information from private companies is is
• 1:39:15
  a problem within itself.
• 1:39:16
  Maybe from publicly traded companies, you
• 1:39:18
  can you can start to install those types
• 1:39:20
  of measures and policies, but from a
• 1:39:22
  private company who they don't really
• 1:39:24
  want you to see their books all the time
• 1:39:26
  for a number of different reasons.
• 1:39:28
  You know, it could be it could be very
• 1:39:30
  challenging. So hopefully we can get
• 1:39:31
  further and further on that. And
• 1:39:33
  obviously, we're we're at the beginning
• 1:39:36
  stages. But I love the fact that, you
• 1:39:38
  know, the vessel tracking is getting up.
• 1:39:40
  Countries are interested. Same with data
• 1:39:42
  interoperability, like trying to be able
• 1:39:44
  to make sure we have the same standards
• 1:39:46
  and we're all comparing at the same rate.
• 1:39:48
  I think it's great because, you know,
• 1:39:49
  it's one ocean. So we should be talking
• 1:39:50
  about one one type of fisheries.
• 1:39:53
  Now, I know the the ocean conference just
• 1:39:55
  the ocean conference just wrapped up in
• 1:39:57
  Busan, South Korea. And, you know, we're
• 1:40:00
  now looking forward to we're just about
• 1:40:02
  to go into the UN Ocean Conference, the
• 1:40:04
  ocean decade conference in these France,
• 1:40:06
  which I hope to be there.
• 1:40:07
  Hopefully, I'll be great.
• 1:40:10
  So what are the main takeaways from from
• 1:40:12
  Busan? And how can we push that into the
• 1:40:17
  our ocean decade conference?
• 1:40:21
  Yeah, so I think that all these kind of
• 1:40:23
  international conferences events like the
• 1:40:25
  Irish and conference, the United Nation
• 1:40:27
  Ocean Conference, they're really
• 1:40:28
  important to ocean conservation because
• 1:40:30
  they serve as, I guess, a platform for
• 1:40:33
  optimism, they are a place where people,
• 1:40:36
  they're celebrated for the
• 1:40:37
  good work that they're doing.
• 1:40:38
  And they create this momentum around a
• 1:40:42
  topic or an issue and stakeholders go and
• 1:40:44
  they feel that and they want to be a part
• 1:40:46
  of that and they want to have something
• 1:40:48
  to contribute and to be
• 1:40:49
  celebrated for themselves.
• 1:40:51
  And this environment leads to a lot of
• 1:40:54
  country commitments, you know, government
• 1:40:56
  standing on stage and promising that x
• 1:40:58
  square kilometers of ocean will be
• 1:41:00
  protected or why fisheries data will be
• 1:41:03
  published. And this might sound a little
• 1:41:06
  bit empty, but it's really important
• 1:41:07
  because without it, we can easily fall
• 1:41:10
  into a space where countries are very
• 1:41:12
  domestically focused, they don't feel any
• 1:41:14
  external pressure to
• 1:41:16
  keep following the curve.
• 1:41:17
  And therefore, you know, they're
• 1:41:19
  perfectly happy if lots of people are
• 1:41:21
  doing that and they're just staying in
• 1:41:22
  their lane. And so these conferences can
• 1:41:24
  really bring people along on a
• 1:41:26
  progressive journey that, you know, those
• 1:41:28
  countries might not have
• 1:41:29
  done anything at all otherwise.
• 1:41:31
  And coming out of Busan, the most
• 1:41:33
  exciting commitment from Global Fishing
• 1:41:35
  Watches perspective was made by Panama.
• 1:41:38
  Panama announced that they will improve
• 1:41:40
  the transparency and accessibility of
• 1:41:42
  their ultimate beneficial ownership data
• 1:41:44
  for the international fishing fleet.
• 1:41:46
  And that's really significant because
• 1:41:48
  Panama has hundreds of vessels operate
• 1:41:51
  all around the world and they're going to
• 1:41:53
  be publishing a list of those owners. And
• 1:41:56
  that means that decision makers will have
• 1:41:58
  access to that when they need it, not,
• 1:42:00
  you know, months later.
• 1:42:02
  And so if there is an issue, it is the
• 1:42:04
  actual beneficiary that will be
• 1:42:06
  sanctioned, not the operators as we spoke
• 1:42:08
  about owners aren't able to kind of hide
• 1:42:11
  behind all these different structures.
• 1:42:13
  It's clear this is the owner.
• 1:42:16
  And decision makers can use that
• 1:42:17
  information as part of their risk
• 1:42:19
  assessment criteria. You know, we spoke
• 1:42:20
  before about, hmm, I've had an issue with
• 1:42:23
  this odor in the past, maybe I'm going to
• 1:42:25
  prioritize looking at all the other
• 1:42:26
  vessels that are
• 1:42:27
  owned by the same person.
• 1:42:29
  Yeah. And, you know, maybe I'm not going
• 1:42:30
  to grant them a license or maybe I'm
• 1:42:32
  going to board and inspect.
• 1:42:35
  And Panama's leadership on this issue is
• 1:42:37
  is so much more valuable than just for
• 1:42:39
  the Panamanian fleet, because others will
• 1:42:42
  follow suit, right? They're standing up
• 1:42:43
  and they're leading and
• 1:42:44
  it creates this momentum.
• 1:42:45
  That's what I hope we can take from Busan
• 1:42:47
  into Nise. I hope that we can get to
• 1:42:50
  others talking about the topic and others
• 1:42:53
  considering these kind of common areas of
• 1:42:56
  pushback that this is like really
• 1:42:57
  resource intensive to do.
• 1:43:21
  And I think that's what we're going to do. And I think that's what we're going to do. Yeah, and you're right. These conferences, international conference, we
• 1:43:23
  do see, you know, big press conferences
• 1:43:24
  on commitments that people make. And I
• 1:43:25
  do, I agree with you that we can, it
• 1:43:27
  allows us to hold them accountable, you
• 1:43:31
  know, it allows us and
• 1:43:31
  it even gives, I'm sure,
• 1:43:50
  an organization like Global Fishing Watch
• 1:43:53
  to be like, Oh, hey, we'd like to work
• 1:43:54
  with you to help you get there. You know, here's our experience and then we can help you. And then I think that's a great way to do it. But there's a lot of events that go on during these international conferences. How does Global Fishing Watch work?
• 1:44:07
  And like, are you speaking with
• 1:44:09
  representatives from different countries,
• 1:44:12
  either through past contacts or meeting
• 1:44:14
  new contacts? Like, what's the approach?
• 1:44:16
  I always talk about going to a conference and everybody's got to have a strategy when you get there. I'm sure Global Fishing Watch does the same thing. What's the strategy when you approach these international conferences? And I think that's a great way to do it.
• 1:44:30
  My colleague, my colleagues will be a
• 1:44:31
  nice, yeah. Our CEO, our chief program
• 1:44:34
  officer and representatives from the
• 1:44:36
  International Policy Team will definitely
• 1:44:37
  be a nice. Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's two approaches. One is kind of turn up and speak to as many people as possible. Yeah. And the second is, you know, I think the first thing I'd like to do is to talk about the international conference.
• 1:44:38
  Yeah, it's a good question. I think
• 1:44:40
  there's two approaches. One is kind of
• 1:44:43
  turn up and speak to as many people as
• 1:44:45
  possible. Yeah. And the second is 99% of
• 1:44:49
  the work is done before you even get on
• 1:44:50
  the flight and we kind of take that that
• 1:44:54
  second approach. We start prepping
• 1:44:56
  probably at least four or five months
• 1:44:59
  before the conference. We're working
• 1:45:01
  normally with the conference organizers
• 1:45:03
  to see if there's anything we can do to
• 1:45:05
  help with the agenda,
• 1:45:07
  suggesting speakers,
• 1:45:07
  suggesting that we've been working with
• 1:45:11
  this country and they've got something
• 1:45:13
  really exciting. They might want to talk
• 1:45:14
  about in this plenary session or we've
• 1:45:17
  seen this latest development. It might
• 1:45:19
  make a really good case study for a side
• 1:45:21
  event. We would also be supporting the
• 1:45:25
  countries that we work with to navigate
• 1:45:26
  this as well, putting together a briefing
• 1:45:28
  pack, going through all the sessions,
• 1:45:31
  making sure the country can really make
• 1:45:34
  the most and talk about the stuff that
• 1:45:36
  we've been doing together in the international conference.
• 1:45:36
  And so we're working together in each of
• 1:45:38
  the four that's relevant, perhaps helping
• 1:45:41
  to prepare speeches, things like that and
• 1:45:44
  reviewing those announcements, suggesting
• 1:45:46
  where it could be strengthened or made
• 1:45:49
  more exciting, more bulletproof.
• 1:45:54
  And then we're also looking at working on
• 1:45:55
  a plan for how that commitment is going
• 1:45:58
  to be implemented so that the government
• 1:45:59
  feels confident going in that they know
• 1:46:01
  the commitment is solid.
• 1:46:03
  They have a plan for doing it.
• 1:46:06
  But yeah, it's really exciting. It can be
• 1:46:08
  a lot of firefighting right at the very
• 1:46:10
  last minute. You know, ministers change,
• 1:46:13
  language requirements change, it's very
• 1:46:15
  varied, but it's a really cool part of
• 1:46:18
  international policy work.
• 1:46:20
  I love it. I think it's I think it's
• 1:46:21
  really important. And I think, you know,
• 1:46:23
  I'm glad you were able to come on the
• 1:46:24
  podcast today. Very happy to be able to
• 1:46:27
  discuss policy. It's not something that
• 1:46:29
  we have to talk about all the time. A lot
• 1:46:31
  of time when Ocean hits the news, it's
• 1:46:32
  with an animal and, you
• 1:46:33
  know, fun things that happen.
• 1:46:34
  Or like, you know, recently, I think it
• 1:46:36
  was a couple months ago, a kayaker got
• 1:46:38
  swallowed up by a humpback or something
• 1:46:40
  like that. You know, you get news like
• 1:46:42
  that. But you don't get news in terms of
• 1:46:44
  what happens at these conferences, how
• 1:46:45
  organizations approach these conferences.
• 1:46:48
  You know, my goal is to get as many
• 1:46:50
  interviews as possible when I go to these
• 1:46:51
  these places and to find out as much
• 1:46:53
  information as possible, what's what's
• 1:46:54
  happening there. But I mean, that's a
• 1:46:57
  it's an important aspect. You know, these
• 1:46:58
  international conferences are important.
• 1:47:01
  They play a big role in international
• 1:47:03
  work that's done after those conferences.
• 1:47:05
  And like I said, holding countries
• 1:47:06
  accountable and negotiating with
• 1:47:07
  countries to help them out and building
• 1:47:10
  your building your networks and building,
• 1:47:12
  you know, your frameworks for the future.
• 1:47:13
  So, Courtney, I want to thank you so much
• 1:47:16
  for spending time with me today and
• 1:47:18
  spending time with us at the audience to
• 1:47:19
  let us know not only what you and Global
• 1:47:21
  Fishing Watch do, but also what is on par
• 1:47:24
  for these these conferences and what has
• 1:47:27
  happened at the Our Ocean Conference.
• 1:47:29
  So I think it's really, really important.
• 1:47:31
  So thank you so much for joining us on
• 1:47:33
  today's episode. No, thank you so much
• 1:47:35
  for having me, Andrew. It's been a
• 1:47:36
  pleasure. Thank you, Courtney, for
• 1:47:37
  joining us on today's episode of the How
• 1:47:39
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:47:39
  It was great to be able to discuss what
• 1:47:42
  Global Fishing Watch does as well as the
• 1:47:45
  policies that they work on, the
• 1:47:47
  technology that they're working on, where
• 1:47:48
  technology is and where it needs to be
• 1:47:50
  and how it's being used is such an
• 1:47:53
  important part to tackle
• 1:47:54
  overfishing on a global scale.
• 1:47:55
  And I think having an organization that's
• 1:47:57
  only 10 years old and being able to be a
• 1:48:00
  prominent figure in that world and having
• 1:48:02
  countries come to you for help is such a
• 1:48:04
  testament to how well they've done over
• 1:48:07
  that time when a new organization comes
• 1:48:08
  in, especially looking at fishing.
• 1:48:10
  A lot of people may see, oh, they're the
• 1:48:11
  overseers. They're gonna out people.
• 1:48:13
  They're gonna be more of an advocacy and
• 1:48:16
  activism organization. Then they come out
• 1:48:17
  and they say, no, this is what we do. And
• 1:48:19
  they show people, they execute what they
• 1:48:21
  do and how well they perform.
• 1:48:21
  And they just go show now where they're
• 1:48:24
  at a point where countries are coming to
• 1:48:25
  them like, hey, you know, we're here,
• 1:48:27
  you're working on, you know, transparency
• 1:48:29
  and fishing vessel tracking. Hey, can we
• 1:48:31
  find out how you're doing that? Because,
• 1:48:32
  you know, we have these policies and we
• 1:48:34
  want to make sure that we're doing it
• 1:48:35
  properly and you've been working on it.
• 1:48:37
  They've specialized in it.
• 1:48:37
  I can't tell you enough how little
• 1:48:40
  resources some countries have, even
• 1:48:42
  including Canada, my own. We don't have a
• 1:48:44
  lot of staff when it comes to government
• 1:48:45
  and, you know, governments like to cut so
• 1:48:47
  they lower their resources. So we don't
• 1:48:49
  have a lot of people with eyes on fishing
• 1:48:51
  and trying to combat overfishing here in
• 1:48:53
  Canada, as well as other places in the
• 1:48:54
  world and other countries in the world.
• 1:48:55
  And so it's difficult to be able to just
• 1:48:59
  have people do it and have those
• 1:49:00
  resources do it. You need technology to
• 1:49:01
  help you out. And that's what we
• 1:49:02
  discussed here. And I thought I was
• 1:49:04
  addressing very, very well. I'm very
• 1:49:06
  enthusiastic about what can become and
• 1:49:09
  how AI and data learning and machine
• 1:49:11
  learning is working to help address
• 1:49:13
  things quickly and appropriately.
• 1:49:15
  So that's going to be a lot of fun. So if
• 1:49:16
  you have any questions or comments, you
• 1:49:18
  can leave in the comments below. And if
• 1:49:19
  you're watching this on YouTube or you
• 1:49:20
  can DM me at how to protect the ocean on
• 1:49:22
  Instagram. That's at
• 1:49:23
  how to protect the ocean.
• 1:49:24
  Or you can go to our speak up for blue
• 1:49:26
  dot com site, hit the contact us, send me
• 1:49:28
  an email. I'd love to hear from you. It
• 1:49:30
  goes right to my personal email. I'll
• 1:49:31
  answer back within a week because I do
• 1:49:33
  get a lot of emails and I'm busy, but I
• 1:49:35
  would love to chat with you. That's the
• 1:49:36
  whole point there. So thank you so much.
• 1:49:38
  I do appreciate you listening. I do
• 1:49:40
  appreciate you joining us and I'll put
• 1:49:42
  all the links to Google fishing watch
• 1:49:43
  that you need to learn about. And I want
• 1:49:45
  to thank you for joining me on today's
• 1:49:46
  episode of the how to protect the ocean
• 1:49:48
  podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
• 1:49:50
  the true North strong and free. Have a
• 1:49:51
  great day. We'll talk to you next time
• 1:49:52
  and have a conservation.