Latest / The Midnight Brief: Immigration Practice, Re-designed / Surviving the AI Wave

Transcript

Surviving the AI Wave · The Midnight Brief: Immigration Practice, Re-designed

• Nadine Navarro: Right, hello, hello. Today I am sitting down with the one and only Ruby Powers. If you're an immigration attorney and you don't know Ruby, I don't know what conferences you've been going to. Ruby is a nationally recognized immigration attorney, speaker, ALA, an ABA leader, author of two practice management books, consultant at Power Strategy Group, and somehow. Still a practicing lawyer on top of it all. Ruby, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Ruby L. Powers: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that impressive, very humbling intro. great to see you, Nadine. Great to be on your podcast. Nadine Navarro: You it's always great to speak with you. So, Ruby, you and I first met. It's been now quite a few years at the Ala Central Conference. when we were co-panelists, we've been on a few stages since then, and you've most recently become what the draft DAI advisor. So I'm really excited. I feel like this conversation. Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: has been a long time coming and I'm not letting you off without asking you some tough questions today. So we can get right into it. So before we get into the big stuff, I have to ask you're running a firm, a consulting practice, you've written two books, and you're on the road something like I think you've said 40 something weeks out of the year. I don't know if I'm over exaggerating Ruby L. Powers: Okay. Whew. Nail biters, yeah. Forty out of fifty two I don't know. I don't know. My EA knows. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Nadine Navarro: I don't know. I'm maybe over extra meeting, but a lot of the weeks. Something has to give. So was there anything you had to say no to in order to say yes to all of the things that you've done so far? Ruby L. Powers: Well, I'm yeah, a whole lot. So we were just talking, I'm thinking of like a a book idea because of I get asked this question a lot, like how do I do what I do? And I I don't really think about it too much, but I think it is really beneficial to learn from each other. And whenever I learn from someone else and I I can add that tool to my list of things to accomplish more or have more of a break or have more flexibility, then I'm I'm all more Excited to have that. I think that one of them is like let's say on the home front, I I keep the office and the school close to my house and my office. And so I learned that from my attorney aunt back a long time ago. That way your little commute is a lot smaller and that k keeps my life sane. I also I don't let the house being a mess freak me out. I think that's a thing. I think like, you know, you just gotta be okay with it. You know, a certain amount of chaos is fine. I mean, we practice immigration, by the way. Like we've we've gotten our tolerance has increased, right? But you know, some people are like really neat freaks and stuff. I mean, you got kids, there's dirt, there's clothes, there's growing, you know. I generally say what comes in, somebody if something comes in, something has to go out in terms of like furniture, extra stuff, because you know, you can't get become hoarders. Nadine Navarro: But yeah. Ruby L. Powers: I'm I'm okay not having to cook every meal, you know. I'm trying to empower those people, the little kids, the 13 to the 15-year-old, the husband. I mean, he actually he cooks a lot. So that's great. You know, I I don't I don't like have to pretend like I have to do everything in the home, you know. And even just today, my daughter called to tell me something she could have told my executive assistant. And I told her, I was like, don't delegate up to me. You respond to the text or the email and you communicate, and I'm not your assistant. And and basically, you know, just boundaries. And I don't know. Nadine Navarro: That's a good one. Family especially. I I have struggled with that one with family 'cause you want help or be there, but yeah. That's a big one. Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. So I I think the family front, like, you know, you just have to be okay with some of that. And then on the the immigration cases front, you know, you can sort of see some problematic cases from afar away. So just maybe even not even having the consult if it meets certain red flags or being really honest with the client about like what we're able to accomplish, when, where, how. Like I just saw an email from someone who hired us yesterday and they're like, Did you go visit the detainee yet? And I'm like, We we got hired yesterday. You know, like I I mean, I I you know, I but it's also about managing expectations. So I get that. I get that. But but you know, I think being reasonable how many rush cases you can take, how many detained cases you can take at a time, that that helps knowing what your limitations are. So yeah, those are some of the things that I keep in mind about saying no to. Nadine Navarro: Big, those are huge for me. I I have similar kind of at home boundaries. There's certain things I've had to let go through the years. Getting a cleaner was a huge one. those little things that seem like small, but they save us tons of hours. Keep me sane, yes to all of that. And of course, boundaries that's been massive for me as well in the office. Just boundaries with the staff not delegating to me, like you said, when. Ruby L. Powers: Mm. Nadine Navarro: they could ask someone else on the team. So yeah. Ruby L. Powers: Right. Delegating up is like one of my biggest pet peeves. I and I I I just like I I caught my daughter doing that and I was just like, no, no we know. Like we're gonna stop that. Nadine Navarro: It's so hard. The person at the top hold everyone and people don't realize that, right? Like they think Well, you have all the answers so I'll just ask you real quick and it's one really tough boundary to set. I for me it's been quite difficult. Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. Well, and I think for people who are so giving and competent and, you know, you know, they is that expression like ask the busiest person to do the thing because they somehow I don't know, I don't know what that expression is. But basically it's like, you know, sometime I I I I said asked something to my son the other day and and he was I was like and he says, Well, you're so capable as if like I could do it myself. And I was like, Yeah, no, like I might be capable, but I'm not going to do it by myself. Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Ruby L. Powers: You know, and I think I think when the more and and just like the what we're going through as imm the immigration profession right now, I I I know this is for myself, but like the more exhausted and tired I get, like the more my boundary you know, radar can get worse. And so I think that's just you know, I know you and I love talking about wellness and and incorporating that in law practice management. just I think we need to be cognizant of that because if your boundary you know, guard is down, you might take cases or projects or commitments that you later regret. And I know that's one of my kryptonites I I work through a lot. Nadine Navarro: For sure. I think a lot of immigration attorneys worked through that one. Speaking of As you know, this podcast is about immigration law but also AI specifically and what that's evolving into in the field. I would love to know what are you using currently? Is there any tool you've tried recently that you're excited about? Anything you're specifically got your eyes on or really any AI tools that you've incorporated into your workflow that you're excited to talk about? Ruby L. Powers: Well, we I think we were sort of like as a firm sort of early adopters and and so I'm I'm great. I'm glad about that, you know, and then as and it's just an evolution and you have to keep experimenting. So w our firm moved over to Claude from Chat GPT maybe like a c a month or a half or two months ago, I'm not sure. And then Cl Claude added all those new like legal features and and work co work features and things like that. So we're still learning and experimenting, but a lot of I think a lot of people are in that space because it's it's relatively new in the plugins. I we're our firm is in the the Google sphere, if you will. And so I think Google's been adding a lot new features, sort of behind the scenes we haven't even you know like one of the one I love someone brought my attention like a year ago is just notebook LM. I've used that to digest like cases that come out. like if there's a late breaking Fifth Circuit or Supreme Court decision that affects the cases I'm doing or AO, whatever, like I could upload that and put on audio overview and just listen to it while I'm driving to sort of like start taking it in. I I had to do that one time when a case came out on like a Friday night and I had to do media interviews like on a Saturday. And there wasn't a lot of, you know, you your a commentary a lot of a lot of that hadn't been digested by other people online yet. but I had to sort of like take it in. So I I'm glad there's a lot of different ways we can learn. You know, we can listen audio more readily than than having to read everything. and I you know, I think we're we're in that space where one of the things I'm using a lot is just like AI Zoom AI companion for meeting summary notes and then Sending a an email with you to respond like this is a a post-consultation email saying this is what we talked about, this is what is needed for you, this is what what needed for us, and next steps. And I mean, that's been all the difference. I I I never had the bandwidth to to write such good notes, nor to send a follow-up email after every consultation. And now Without, you know, with some exceptions, I pretty much have done it pretty consistently for like the last six or eight months. And it's so great because like questions about like, did I talk about that one thing? Or, you know, or what what did I say? You know, if someone another attorney has to do the a follow-up or a legal assistance reviewing. It almost has been able to eliminate the debrief process like after a case is hi hired because the notes are pretty much clearly say what I talked about. So those are some of the ones that are jumping out at me. I mean, but we're using at all different levels in the firm. Nadine Navarro: I love a notebook LM and I always forget that if you have a Google workspace subscription, you basically have it for free. is my understanding. So everybody in the team account can have notebook L and we use it my firm for like SOPs and general guidelines have this big giant notebook. Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nadine Navarro: where anyone in the firm, specifically admin things, can go and ask, I have this situation, what do I do? And it will look all over rules to tell them, well, these are what the rules say about the specific situation. And when you said your meeting notes thing, I could see where you could throw the meeting notes for each client in a notebook for that client and then just have anyone in the team be able to get Ruby L. Powers: Mm. Nadine Navarro: all the information for the case based on the meeting notes as they can chat with that notebook. There's so many good uses of it. And I just recently started using it. I know there's people that have built empires on notebook LM. Pretty impressive. yeah. Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. It was Matthew Kerbis in Chicago that he was like on my podcast or to I was teaching my a class to my my law students. I'm on my courses that I teach. And he just was raving about this was like a year ago and then I like was playing around with it. But yeah, I I think like Google's secretly quietly like adding more and more features. And so like you might if you're in the Google sphere, you know, you might be having all these tools at your fingertips, but you might not know it. So I would say go, go play around, go figure, go check it out. And, you know, there's there's so much to this, but you know, sometimes when I just need to teach myself something, I might go to YouTube first and say, you know, tell me what I need to know about whatever. And there's somebody who's made like a short little video and then I can start digesting that and then go play around with it. And I I love that about how the information sharing. Like The other day it was like 6 30, 7, I don't know, whatever. And some there was an attorney who was doing a whole little LinkedIn webinar on Claude and for legal. And I was like, awesome. I just happened to open my LinkedIn at that moment and was was sort of watching and learning some new things. So I think for those listening, you know, you just have to build in a good amount of time in your weekly schedule. to go out there, experiment, be curious and keep learning and and having some a key few people in the firm who are monitor who are sort of on top of that as well so that it's not just on your shoulders. Nadine Navarro: What have you heard since you are obviously on the floor at AVA Tech, at A Lab, many different A LA conferences, what have you heard from attorneys that are still a little apprehensive about AI? Like what are some of the worries? Specifically after Hepner, I know that, you know, that kind of brought up a lot more buzz around Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. Mm. Nadine Navarro: Is what I tell Claude going to be discoverable? Like what have you heard recently? Worries around AI? and and what are your thoughts on the Hepner case? Ruby L. Powers: I think that that was in February, right? In New York. I think that that that brought a whole a new light, a little new layer of of fear, I think, to some individuals. you know, you got the regular hallucination fear that lawyers are usually talking about. But I think the conversation there is pretty much just make sure that there's humans in the loop double checking the work and Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Ruby L. Powers: Don't just take whatever you get from AI for granted. So but it still happens, unfortunately. You know, people are moving quickly. And you there's I I talked to Jacqueline Schaefer from Clear Brief on my podcast, and she said, because she researched this and wanders this a lot. She said that it was a lot like people who they they assume somebody else was checking the citations and and that's why it got submitted or something. And so I was like, okay, that's that's good to keep in mind. I I think that the low the those who don't r live in the AI space don't really know what the Hepburn case Epner case is. but then the ones who are, you know, they're more aware and cognizant and trying to keep an eye on how to make sure that they are are doing what they need to do to be compliant. I I think one of the things we have to have is we need to have a policy, an AI policy in in the firm. We need to have one that's stated on our attorney climate agreement. that we're using AI and we're, you know, doing our best due diligence to stay on top of technology and and pr protect confidentiality. I think another one is we need to com s it's it's like it's sort of a little bit crazy that we have to add this to our list of of tasks, but to to even communicate about AI to our our clients as well to be to be To protect their privacy, confidentiality, but also to be smart with the information that they have at their disposal. And yeah, I mean, I f I feel like we have to become we we can't put our head in the sand about this topic. And the the genie's not gonna go back in the bottle. Or I'm I'm mixing lots of metaphors, but whatever, whatever. You get what I'm saying. You know, like you've gotta like it's there, it's here to stay, it's not going anywhere. Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Yeah, that Ruby L. Powers: And we need to keep improving and learning and staying on top of things. And I was asking like Sean Harrington from he teaches law school in Arizona, a lot of tech and AI. And he was at ABA Tech Show as well. I was like, how much is like the minimum you think an attorney should be spending a week on AI and like learning? He said a y an hour. And then I I said this to some other people on a speech recently, and they were like, Some people said they thought that was really low. And then some people like probably think that's a lot. I think it probably depends on where you are in the spectrum of AI usage, you know? And yeah. Right. Yeah. Nadine Navarro: And what you're trying to learn, right? Like if you try and learn to vote on Cloud, you're gonna need a little bit more than an hour. But if you're just trying to learn to start using AI, then an hour is is good enough time to set aside on a Friday afternoon every every week. So yeah, that's a good point. That's yeah, I think that there's a lot of different tools out there that everybody is seeing and trying, and there's this big Ruby L. Powers: Right. Yeah. Nadine Navarro: you know, candy crush kind of like candy rush or we call it the shiny object syndrome happening in AI right now in law where everybody is rushing to get, you know, get the candy, get the really sweet, exciting new thing out there. Ruby L. Powers: yeah. Mm-hmm. Like the dopamine hit. Yeah. Nadine Navarro: It's huge dopamine and you were not realizing how much that dopamine h is costing us, trying so many different things all the time and asking our staff like try this, try that. Like it is obviously important to stay on top of all that is out there, but I think the recommendation of setting aside a special time. every week so that you can kind of put that in a container is huge moving forward with how much homework there is and constantly will be and exploring these tools. it's a big yeah boundary that I think has saved me from just jumping out of any whatever task into my god I just saw this tool that can help me with Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. When I think about how I've been practicing practicing immigration for 17 years, and that doesn't count like twenty-five years in some capacity being an immigration from my prior jobs before pre-law pre-lawyering. I and I think about how many hours a week I have to spend just to stay on top of immigration. Like I I think we really do need to allocate time for the AI learning because there's a steep learning curve. And it's really gonna differentiate, you know, who makes it to the other side of of sort of like this wave that's happening and and and who can who can sort of modernize and and reevaluate their practice to to better serve their clients and be able to to serve more with probably less resources. So yeah, it's it I mean, we're being pulled at on on two different places, like the AI, you know. revolution, I guess, whatever we're calling it over here, and then the immigration influx of of constant y rapid change. And so I know I I get I feel you. Like we're all we're all a little exhausted to say the least. Yeah. Nadine Navarro: It's exhausting so much influx, so much. And speaking of the future that, you know, AI, this big wave that is happening, what do you think the future of law looks like whenever we're in that future, kind of like now where the internet is a given for everyone? What do you think that future looks like in law where AI is just kind of a given, just like standard practice management software and Google search? Ruby L. Powers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think one of the things I look to a few other like thought leaders in the space. one of them is like Jordan Furlong. I I really look to something he wrote a couple of years ago now about like in the post AI world, the lawyers are gonna need to focus on the advocating, advising, and accompanying because a lot of the other functions are going to be taken up by by a lot of the administrative functions are going to disappear with AI. I I think you've got to imagine a world where what would be the highest and best use of a lawyer's time? when you you look at some of those old like Clio legal trends reports, it and it says like a typical day of a lawyer, it'd be fascinating to see it over a period of time, especially with AI. But like like how many hours spending emails and calls and drafting and things like that. But if you if a lot of that can be reduced, you know, but what would you what what would be the highest and best use of our time? Is it more of like actual interaction with clients, hand holding, you know, at interviews, being at court, advising, giving them that confidence to help accompanying them with where they're on their journey. so I I look to h to Jordan Furlong a lot for for guidance and he he writes a lot on his substack and he was one of the keynote speakers ABA Tech Show. I also look at to Daniel and Richard Suskin and they wrote a book, many books, but one of them was The Future of Legal Profession. I mean the Future of Professions. and that one you know it really is fascinating because it was actually written a while ago the future the future of the professions how technology will transform the work of human experience and even though it was written, I think like almost originally like a decade or something ago, originally published in 2015, it was really spot on in many cases about like how a lot of professions are changing. Like one of the things I took away was we used to be the like the monopoly or the oligopoly of of knowledge, of legal knowledge, right? Like we have those huge books behind us and like only a few people could afford them at like law firms and stuff like that. But now a lot of that is available at people's fingertips. and but maybe they don't understand what it means, you know. And so that's why they need us to help decipher that for them. Or they can go online and chat at a Claude or whatever and ask some questions, but it'll usually say, You should consult an immigration attorney, you know, for and and so then they'll be like, Ugh, should I risk it with what it said? Or or should I go actually get an experienced individual, you know, a professional. So I think that there's a lot there's been a a shift over the last decade or so of more of DIY where a lot of individuals are just doing stuff on their own. They're they're leveraging the programs that are out there that are more for the consumer and they're trying to to you know navigate it. we all know that in this climate, this is not the time to be pro se. and it's it's very dangerous just to rely solely on like one platform as the and all be all, because there's constant change. But I guess it's hard to gauge, you know, and predict the future, but it's it's gonna be a combination of we're not gonna be able to pass on the price of in a being inefficient and doing things that could be done by AI, by by human. That's not that's not where we're gonna be. And so I think there's a race to who can reimagine. the delivery of legal services in a way that reduces the cost, but still gives a client experience that they're yearning for and they're seeing in other industries. I I like to mention like Amazon, for example. You click on a button, you say I want something, you know when it's coming, how it's coming, you get a photo when it's arrives, and you don't talk to a human at all, you know? And maybe a client, right. Nadine Navarro: Yeah. excellent topic to talk about for hours, how we've gonna have to evolve our knowledge and application of that as attorneys now battling like you said, a world where clients are able to get answers with way more easily where they couldn't before on their own. there's this famous quote, I think I used it at a panel at the Cancun Conference. I think it's from the Airbnb CEO that says marketing is the price you pay for an unremarkable experience. And so it's this big quote on client experience, right? Where companies like Amazon, you know, sure they market because they have an endless supply of money, but like they have created expectation of what consumer relations are from a company, right? They expect full visibility to be able to track everything, open communication quickly and Now with the rise of AI, I feel like attorneys, we'd be best served to focus our energies on improving that area of of our practices, right? Where before doing all the admin stuff took all our time. Now we have time to become or hire more experts in client experience, design, and things like that, which is exciting. It's a new frontier of practicing. We have to design an experience now more than than we had to before where just having the information was what clients needed and came for. Ruby L. Powers: Right. And we have to be intentional because I heard people say, like, when the email came out, like, well, then we won't have to work as hard because we're not writing out letters with typewriters and mailing and whatever, right? But I think we we found ways to fill in the time with email, right? So I think like we'll still find I I so it I cracks me up when they're like, No, we're gonna have three day work weeks, you know, and because there's gonna be less work needed and okay, yeah, maybe, maybe, but But there's probably we're gonna fill in the days with some more work somewhere. Yeah. We'll we'll find a place. we should do a shout out to that the futures report that you worked on, that came out in April of this year. So by Ayla. So Nadine Navarro: Any other resources that you recommend to either someone interested in expanding their knowledge of how to use AI in their practice more or maybe somebody that's already using Chat GPT, Claude and some for some basic use cases but wants to learn more about what all AI is useful for and how it's being applied. I know the futures report is great because you can get all kinds of examples there. The article I worked on discusses how the government is using AI throughout all the different agencies, which is really, really interesting. But there's tons of other really helpful articles in there across the scope of many topics in AI. Is there anything else? Books, podcasts Ruby L. Powers: there's been some more recent books out there and I think that, you know, it's all about like what's the focus of of that book and when did it come out because this is really late breaking and is changing. I I I would just suggest to those listening, you know, to stay on top of things, probably subscribe to a couple of newsletters or substacks where people are regularly writing on it, either from an AI perspective or maybe from a like a future perspective and just sort of keeping idea on trends. I would also say say you could listen to some other podcasts. There's this one called How I AI and it's not legal specific, but I think like it's good to think of how other people I mean, isn't that that's exciting to like we were talking about earlier, like how we use AI and and maybe we can learn and go experiment with that. Like I love asking people that question and just sort of adding that to my toolbox of of ways to do it. So I'd say being on a couple of newsletters or substacks, listening to a couple of podcasts on a regular rotation, and then going to some legal tech conferences if you can, or I mean ABA Tuck Show, I would definitely do a a a plug for that. There's a one another podcast called Hard Fork. I listen to that every once a while. it's about the the changing world of tech. And then, yeah, I mean, I think in that whole just being curious and playing around with it and trying things out and watching some videos about it, and just maybe having like a small group of other attorneys that share ad I advice and ideas and I mean I'm on a couple of different little groups and we Sometimes we're like, hey, you want me to show you? Yeah, okay. You know, and we like share a screen and and then we like demo and like, wow, that's awesome, you know. And it really could just be a little tweak here or there. that's why I'm saying, like, you shouldn't be the only one in your firm that's doing this. Like, there should be multiple people and then they should all be sharing. So because it's changing. So, like, even at our office meeting on Tuesdays, I like to have some tech time and be like, okay, who wants to like come up and brag about how you're using it to be more efficient. it'll share with each other. And I'm I'm all ears because it is hard to practice, do the other stuff, be a mom, wife, you know, whatever. And then be trying to have enough time to play around with the tech. Like I keep wanting to vibe code I haven't gotten to it yet. Yeah. So maybe maybe this weekend. Yeah. a lot of my friends are like, yeah, just bragging about like how they're able to do and like how they're able to do it in so l much less time. And I mean, even just the example I said about the note taking and the emails, like I just wouldn't have been able to do that, you know, because I didn't have time. I barely have time right now to even send the post console emails because I'm going back to back calls, you know. So Nadine Navarro: well yeah, there's so many so many different AI tips and tools and programs out there. One thing for me that is the biggest unlock, it's kind of what we're circling around is learning use cases. Like use cases being like how is everybody else using it. It could be something really basic for your everyday life, like creating recipes or organizing something or giving you a shopping list with links to Amazon or it could be something work related or Ruby L. Powers: Mm-hmm. Nadine Navarro: I don't know, there's so many different ways everybody is using it and those groups, those random WhatsApp groups where everybody's like, my god, I just used Claude to do this and check it out, like that's the best. Having a list for me, I have a running list of all the cool things you can do on AI. And that that's the biggest thing. Cause if you don't have a use for it, you can buy any program, sign up for whatever. But if you're not using it or don't have uses for it that are unique and high ROI, it's pretty much Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: Just for fun. Ruby L. Powers: I could share a link. I do have an AI toolkit that I'm adding like a lot of different tools that I've been experimenting with because it's everything from like marketing, or you know, like email or you know, like a draft AI with with the emotions and and writing and things like that. But we're always adding them and even with my podcast and like just like the the different tools that we're we're using. And so I can share that with the listeners. And I I just think that yeah, it's it's the you're right. The Facebook groups or the other social media groups are also what give me inspiration too. Like there's Claude Legal Ones, there's like, you know, we have the technology for immigration lawyers and there's there's a lot of them out there. So I think it can Nadine Navarro: Legal Tech Collective. Have you heard of that one? Most legal tech stuff in general. That's not immigration specific, but there's a lot of like, here's the latest thing I didn't quite posted there. And I just like to scroll post and get inspired, Some of them I'm already doing, some of them I never heard of, and it sounds immediately genius, and I have to try it. People share prompts, like all kinds of different things. That's a fun one. Ruby L. Powers: I haven't. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna go get on that one then. Nadine Navarro: the legal feel looks so different today than it did, I'm sure, you know, when you started practicing, even ten years ago, it looks completely different now. So my last question. Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: let's say you are at a conference and you spot your previous self from 10 years ago at the coffee station and she asks you, what advice would you give her right in the next 10 years of practice? this question goes for the newer attorneys that you know they They want to hear what advice you have from the last 10 years of building your brilliant career, the two books you've written, all of the knowledge you've compiled through this time. What would you tell your younger self who is eager to learn and expand in this industry? Ruby L. Powers: this is a tough one. I maybe I should just pivot it back to you to answer that question. No, but let's see. I I the first thing that came to mind, well I mean you're you're saying give my current self give advice to my prior decade ago self. But but I think it'd be fun to to tell Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Ruby L. Powers: My prior my future well, my past my old self, that that things are gonna get crazy. but I I've been waiting for immigration reform my whole career, you know, and I'm think I'm wondering like how long am I gonna wait for it, you know? Yeah. I I I don't know. I think I would probably say a few things that I've gotten to learn and I feel confident about. Like, you know, that it's okay if you wanna add another practice area. It doesn't mean you're giving up on immigration. It's okay to have other focuses or revenue streams or your identity doesn't have to be just immigration attorney. and I you know, I'm that's why I started Power Strategy Group. six or something years ago, but I was maybe before I was building the the beginning of that with the the book and all the teaching and courses and stuff like that. So I would say make sure to diversify yourself so that you don't have your eggs in just one basket and and also just keep checking in to remember why you're doing what you're doing and and that you're staying true to your goal and mission. I think if I told my past, my future my old self. whatever the the self of a decade ago, my younger self, like it's gonna get wild and crazy, like jump ship. No, no, it's that way. No, I wouldn't say that. But like I probably would just say buckle up, yeah, buckle up. I mean, I'm glad that I took on tough cases early on because then like now I'm you know, we're we're pretty much like fixers, like people come to us with complicated things, you know. And I'm glad that I challenged myself. I'm glad that we're full service because there'll be times when something's down for a little while and then something will pick up, we've we've added, estate planning, it's in the various stages of of rolling out. but you know, there is a bit of an intersection. We have a lot of clients that you know, if you think about your immigration clients, they have businesses, they have houses and property. And then some of them, I mean, this really came up about a year or so ago. They, you know, there was the whole rapid response in terms of like there was some deportations happening. And you're thinking about the custody documents, the attorney statutory the the attorney documents. And you're you're just thinking like, well, you know, they these types of documents are necessary for immigration clients. But then if you also think about like there's a huge transfer of wealth, there's a lot of baby boomers retiring, there's a lot of change happening for the the immigrant and the non-immigrant community, you could say. so that's why we've decided just sort of diversify and and help those in need in in this space. And I think a lot of it came from the fact that I I lost my dad a year ago almost this month. And I've gone through the loss of both my mom fifteen years ago and my dad a year ago. And just with my grandparents. And just Watching all of that, you know, and how how there's a There's a better way to go about it and there's like a a worse way to go about it. And so like sharing that, I think a lot of people are just so focused on the the day to day and now there's so much of uncertainty. But just like we're talking about having a deportation plan or like where we usually live, right? Hurricane plan, right? Like you should have your you should have your estate plan in order too. I think that it complements the immigration space and will help us through this next few years as well. Nadine Navarro: That's exciting and that's a good diversification. I would assume that estate planning is pretty stable in comparison to immigration Ruby L. Powers: Yeah, from from my my research and experience so far, it is. I'm like, I love that. Stability. Let's go with that. Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Well, Ruby, thank you so much for doing this with me today. If people want to get in touch with you, how do they do that? Ruby L. Powers: Yeah. I think LinkedIn's probably the best. Ruby Powers, Ruby R E B Y P O W E R S. and you can also email me, but if you want to just chat me. and then we also have my law firms, Ruby Powerslaw.com, and there's also Power Strategy Group that we have some events coming up, and I usually mention when I'm gonna be speaking. including the the retreat that we're working on together in August in Denver. So yeah, definitely reach out to me and if there's any resources I can share. the book Power Up Your Practice is on Amazon and it's also available through Ayla. And also we have the podcast called Power Up Your Practice. So if there's any way it can be available a resource for you or help you out in some way, just feel free to reach out and let me know. Thanks for having me.