Latest / Outside The Therapy Room / Episode 71: ADHD & Relationships with Molly Handsaeme

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Episode 71: ADHD & Relationships with Molly Handsaeme · Outside The Therapy Room

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Join me each week as I sit with a special guest to discuss everyday things after mental health.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be chatting about everything from mental health and relationships to media and critics, as well as personal experiences and reflections, all in the hopes of normalizing our humanness and helping you see that you're not alone.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, welcome to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are joined by Molly.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Molly, how are you?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, good.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Good, thank you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy for you to be here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, also, first off, thank you for bringing me in.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm super excited to be here.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a little bit about myself.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I am a uh registered social worker.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have my master's in social work.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: I work within, just to kind of talk about my work area, I work within grief, trauma, burnout, ADHD, and ADHD kind of weaves in through those different areas as well.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I got into this area because of my own lived experience.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I know for me, um, lived experience was always really important throughout my work.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and growing up with ADHD, having more of a late diagnosis, um, this was a really important area to work within.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I also work with adults and individuals and couples.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a little bit about that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for introducing yourself professionally.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: But because we are outside the therapy room, I always like to ask our guests, like, tell us a little bit about yourself outside of your profession.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a little bit outside of my profession.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I first off, maybe I'll start with my hobbies.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely loved sports.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So sports was a really big thing throughout my entire life.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Played competitive sports um kind of all throughout.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a big part of it, I would say identity as well.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then within regards to personal life, um, right now, some of my hobbies, honestly, I'm gonna be honest, I've I've taken the Pilates train and I love it.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: The Hot Pilates train, I'm on it and I'm going hard.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of my faves.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then I um live in Kitchener um uh with my partner.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and we have a little cat, and that's yeah, that's a little little bit about me.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hot Pilates or is it hot yoga or hot Pilates?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Which one?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it actually is a studio that has both.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: And like I, you know, I always was like, oh, I don't know about Pilates, and now I'm on the train.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so fun.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's a community.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just started like reformer pro Pilates, but in like a regular AC room.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really nice.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I've done hot yoga and love it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's such um, I think it's all there's a lot of mindfulness in both of them because you're really having to reconnect with your body, I think.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's so true.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like the mind-body connection, it's it's such a real thing.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting being someone who trailed off of sports after school, you kind of lose that, right?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're not like taught how to, you know, just function in lifestyle.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's more about like the heavy intensity.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of cool, like slowing down and and getting that connection back.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is cool.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your hobbies, your profession.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you know our listeners haven't tuned in yet to what our topic could be, um, apart from our title of our episode today, we are going to be talking about ADHD, which I think has been a um a favorite kind of topic for us to touch on because there's still a lot of unknown and a lot of kind of noise around ADHD.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, recently we're talking about it a lot more, which, you know, there's mixed feelings, I think, from folks um about ADHD coming up a lot more, but it is an important topic, especially when when um we're talking about relationships, um, because neurodivergent folks, neurotypical folk are often in the same kind of friendship groups, they're in relationships together or even in their family dynamic.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it can make it a little bit difficult for both neurotypical and neurodivergent to know expectations.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it can create some conflict when we don't fully understand exactly how a person is processing information.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think communication can sometimes be really, really tough.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: It can kind of be like a little bit of a struggle when we're trying to communicate with each other what we're needing.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted um to talk a little bit about what I just said.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like ADHD has been talked about so much more recently.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think so many women are only being identified or given a proper diagnosis later in life?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a few different areas.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one being the social, another being there's actually some research to show by like biologically some of the differences of why.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I also just have to say right off the hop, the medical model, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's very based around men's experiences and tracking those experiences.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't get as much data.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Mind you, now we can see more research in this, but we don't get as much data on what um young girls' women's experiences like, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: So this kind of contributes to that later diagnosis.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the social pieces, actually, maybe we'll start with the hyperactivity.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: So when we think about ADHD, there's the big idea of like, oh, you know, it's going to present so outward and we're bouncing and we're doing all these things and we we keep really busy, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: So within young girls, the hyperactivity can actually, instead of showing up in the physical outward nature of that, it can actually show up in the internal experience.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it can show up in your mind, the idea of like the busy mind, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Racing thoughts, really thinking a lot.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: It can also show up in other forms of outward um natures, like talking, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know for me, I was like often the chatty Kathy in school, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than, you know, being up and being very like physically busy all the time.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just a piece of it.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then there's the societal kind of expectations and stipulations, right?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, young girls are often very much conditioned to fit within a certain box of how should we present, you know, being very agreeable, you know, listening, being very organized, attentive.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all of these pressures that are put on young girls.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: And when we think about attachment, even, right, um, they talk about how your attachment with your caregivers is so important.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's Gabor Matei talks about how we would give up like our authenticity to then to ensure that we have that belonging.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you think about it, we socially address things differently for young boys and young girls.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: For young boys, there's a lot of research showing that the behavioral aspects, right, are what's clocked.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's the okay, you know, the impulsivity, that's a behavior piece.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we can identify that and support them in these other aspects.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: With young girls, it's often related to character, it's often related to identity, which is also why you see later on in life, especially with later diagnoses, this questioning of like, who am I?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: And all of this masking, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Which really ties back to the hyperactivity showing up in the mind.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's a component of like masking.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And like to belong and to feel safe, I need to mask these parts of myself.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a little bit about it.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then the biological aspects that have come out too are that um with our cycles, right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's differences.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: So higher estrogen equals more dopamine, which helps with that regulation, the focus, all of those concentration pieces, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: So in a month, we could fluctuate and look very different as opposed to um not having those fluctuations, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Presenting consistently in a certain way, right, with that hyperactivity.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's also, I think, some research to show about um uh brain maturation, like your frontal lobe, the executive functioning, which is the organizer, the planner, the executor, right?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um being in development being a little bit different between young boys and girls, where young girls' um brain maturation is a little bit uh more developed.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe that impulsivity doesn't show up as intensely.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a little research within that too, that I think is interesting.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I do think the social aspects are a really big piece of it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know growing up for me, I grew up on a farm.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I was outside all the time.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was playing hockey all the time, right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I definitely, for me, I can assess, and this is, you know, everyone is on a spectrum, I want to say to you.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, I did really have those, um, the outward hyperactivity, and I had different supports in place.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you didn't, there was, um, I always think about nervous system.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: There was the kind of balancing, the flexibility of my nervous system having these outlets, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting and I think it's so complex, but I do think these are some of the main areas that we can kind of start to see.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think exactly what you said.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much of a difference between men and women.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also at school, school is also a lot of the places when kids might get early diagnosis because they're not fitting into this kind of environment where they have to, it's kind of like black and white.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have to kind of sit at your desk, you have to pay attention.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Things are slowly changing.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing that through my kids in their schools.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like things are, you know, thankfully, slowly starting to change and accommodate for people who maybe need a different kind of learning environment.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for a lot of boys, the hyperactivity feels a lot more obvious.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're maybe moving around a lot in their chairs.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas for women as or little girls, as you described, it's more internal or it's happening at recess within their social group.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not as much of like a quote unquote concern as it may be for the boys.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are these, you know, differences.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think also from what I'm hearing from clients and also a lot of women in my life, it's some of those um maybe like uh ADHD symptoms were maybe thought of as quirks or they maybe were overlooked or dismissed.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then now in adulthood, they're like, oh, wait a second.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm struggling with juggling parenthood and like maintaining friendships and all of the responsibilities at school.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's when they start looking at maybe getting a diagnosis.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: But along with that, because that has seemed to be like kind of a pattern that has happened, what are some common signs that you see in women that they might overlook or dismiss or maybe just mark as a personal or personality flaw?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's really interesting because people pleasing very much ties in to that relational safety aspect, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Of ADHD.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we think about identity as being kind of the core um piece.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always go back to, you know, um, there was a study that talked about like little boys when they they present as like daydreaming, it's it's presented as, oh, they're inattentive.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I can see that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: A little girl daydreaming is often interpreted as, oh, you know, she's just not paying attention.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's again, it goes to identity, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: That core.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say um some of the presentations that might show up is like the people pleasing, protective parts of us, right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: The perfectionistic parts of us might show up.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think there's a misconception with ADHD, um, where, you know, even if it's not said to us, it can the term of lazy, right?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, you don't have motivation, you're lazy, which is actually I'm throwing it out the window.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's absolutely not like true, right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's the idea that, you know, I've created this protective part of me, this perfectionistic part, or this self-critical part, or this people pleasing part for safety.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I can criticize myself enough, then I can hyperfocus and keep my nervous system alert to the things that I need to make sure and that I'm, you know, safe, just the same as like the people pleasing part, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's my relational safety.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those parts coming up are super important because when we think about ADHD, um, a modality also I should say that I work within is I'm very IFS informed, internal family systems informed, which is um some people just work with the parts work.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's working with like the different parts of ourselves.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we have these protective parts, and then under it we have the wounded parts, which I know you've talked about as well on your podcast, you're right.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we might have these other parts that are kind of those like blazing parts that come in if the protector is not protecting enough and jumping in, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think knowing our parts can be a really good indicator of noticing some of these presentations as to why are they protecting?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Where did they come from?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing too is um anxiety that um has been attempted to be treated and it's it's still presenting because a lot of the time that can also be an indicator that there's actually something else underlying it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know for again, my experience uh growing up, I had been on a few different anxiety medications and the anxiety was still there.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I had tried my ADHD medication, it was like I could breathe, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that's another um commonly piece that's overlooked, as well as the cognitive overload and the hyperactivity um cognitively, like the racing thoughts, the um versus like those physical disruption pieces, those can also be an indicator that maybe there's another piece to this, as well as like if we think about the social belonging pieces, there's actually an aspect um within ADHD of feeling that rejection sensitivity, which really is the um the core of like I am hypersensitive to any shifts towards criticism or um that something's kind of off, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really hyper aware to that.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that can also be another indicator.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean right that it is ADHD, but these are some things that sometimes go overlooked, um, as well as the masking.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, we go back to the identity piece and masking and feeling like I really have to put on a front in social situations.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I also want to keep in mind, too, like I said, none of these are like a direct, but they can be some things that are missed, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also the perfectionists needing to belong, we can sometimes downplay our symptoms, depending on like the environment that we're in with close friends or you know, people that are close to us.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it becomes a little then, you know, kind of confusing a little bit, you know, we need to kind of take that initiative to kind of see if we want to when get a diagnosis and if we want to get um learn a little bit more and educate ourselves a little bit more on uh neurodiversity, especially like ADHD.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you think?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you'd like, you can share a little bit from your experience, but what are some of the emotional impacts of growing up with undiagnosed ADHD?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I think um the emotional impacts of growing up with ADHD, I really think I'm a strong, I kind of always stay within the identity because I just see it like not only within myself, but within clients.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's such a strong theme for women specifically who have been diagnosed later because it's all attributed to who you are, right?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of understanding these are, you know, um behavioral symptoms, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: They're just pieces of the ADHD, right?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: I also think um the feelings of like, oh, you're too sensitive, you're too dramatic, especially when it comes to women, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And knowing that, like, first off, ADHD, we think about the executive functioning, it's you know, in layman's terms, and I'm really layman's terms in this, but it really helps with the regulation of our emotion brain, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So when we don't have as much access to consistent regulation of our executive functioning, of course, we're gonna feel emotions even in our body much more, right?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I think especially for women, that's such a theme of you know, carrying that with you of like, oh, I'm too sensitive, I'm too dramatic, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: All of these kind of ideas when it comes to emotional.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those are some of the ones I would that really stick out to me, but also the identity piece and shame, even.
• 18:00
  unknown: Right.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and how um I always think about shame as like I am bad, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: The idea of like, oh, I'm bad, I did this.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: And how when you're constantly corrected or criticized and no one sees that, you know, this is just the way that your brain works.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's working in a very different way.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: We live in a very ableist world, right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's built off of kind of this one direction of this is how you learn, this is how you do things, right?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then especially for women, the social conditioning that we talked about, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're kind of put in this little box.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if you and you will fall outside that box, but if you do fall outside that box, that's gonna be a part of the identity piece building, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's around, it's interesting too, because even if you think about attachment, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's around, I think, seven or seven or twelve or something, where you start to build your identity of yourself, yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And kind of, and so it's interesting knowing that because if you think about that, that's also a bit of a peak in where your schooling is, right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I would say the emotional impacts can can be really big.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And this is again where um I really love parts work because I think it brings out all of these really protective parts, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: That you can start to understand and and get to know.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um but again, it kind of trailed off there, but yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, I love I love that because I I also have kiddos, they're seven and ten.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you describe like your identity piece, like, yeah, it is starting to kind of build up around that age group, right, that they're in right now.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so we've had an episode, I think it was in the first season, around identity and how we kind of form our identity from our environment.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so like the people that we're around, they have an influence in our identity.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: But at some point we form our own identity or we choose what, you know, kind of what aligns with us a little bit better.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: But when we are struggling or when we aren't sure what these quirks or what these changes or differences are, when we start noticing that maybe we are a little bit different than other people in our social circle, then it does lead to shame.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: It does lead to a lot of confusion.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it can also then, as you pointed out, impact our identity and how we kind of view ourselves within our group.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so many listeners are probably recognizing themselves and what you're describing, because I think we've all had an experience where, you know, something's shifted and now we're looking at our at our identity a little bit differently than maybe we were before, whether we have ADHD symptoms or not.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just a universal thing that we can sometimes just check in on.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think, yeah, there's there's a lot of how, you know, how this impacts women, not only when they're younger, but into adulthood.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: But our main focus of our episode today is on relationships.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're gonna, like I said, talk about friendship in within our groups.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've already learned so much, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's already a lot of um identity stuff coming up in our group, maybe a lot of perfectionism, a lot of shame, a lot of our protective factors.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: If we're going with IFS, there's a lot of protective versions of us that are trying to show up in these um environments that can sometimes either feel authentically to us or inauthentically to us.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it does, I think, play a role in how we show up around people.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you kind of see ADHD affect women's relationship with themselves first?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, and I think honestly going back to again, I I say identity a lot and I will say it a lot because it's it really doesn't.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, be broken records.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the chronic um like self criticism, right?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I really see um these parts forming of women, especially like the late diagnosis, but not just the late diagnosis, right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but these parts forming to protect themselves, right?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: I talked a little bit about like the um perfectionistic parts that maybe form so that like my nervous system is in that optimal zone, right?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Of functioning where I'm concentrated, I'm alert, I'm aware, I can do all of the things, right?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: So these systems that are created almost keep them right in that activation mode, which we know also long-term is not the most helpful, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because then we have burnout, we have chronic illness, those pieces.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I really think the self-criticism and years of being misunderstood really impacts the emotional aspects of how we relate to ourselves, how we feel about ourselves.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then we create all of these protective identities, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: To kind of keep us on par in place to make sure that we're doing the things that we need to do, right?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um living up to these social constructs, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: These standards of things, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also think shame plays a part of uh where we go to I'm the problem, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not doing this, I'm not smart enough, I can't, you know, keep a relationship going the same way another person can.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's also the comparison, I think.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was gonna say.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like we're we're comparing ourselves to other peers, right?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, and I think also the fear of failure.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's another big one that comes up with relationship to self-of like I I'm a failure, I don't want to fail, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do every single thing, keep myself activated in that really activated state so that I can make sure I'm not missing anything, right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or be five steps ahead, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: When we think about that perfectionistic part, right?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I really think when it comes to the relationship pieces, um, you can see I also feel like I can't not talk about the default network mode when I talk about relationship with self, because um the default network mode as a whole, outside of ADHD, um, as we know, but kind of helps us figure out like the who am I, the processing of our world, the processing of our ourselves as a whole, right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's kind of that daydreamy, like when I allow myself to do something repetitive and I go into that daydream state where I can just kind of flow and think and right.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so with ADHD, outside of ADHD, it's like a switch on and off, on and off, where you know, maybe we can access it through just kind of doing something repetitive versus ADHD, where it's not an on and off switch.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's very much like um it just flows in and flows out, flows in and flows out more can consistently, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not as uh turn offable, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot more thinking if you think about that.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot more deep introspection, which also can impact relationship with self.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: It can be a beautiful thing where we're we're deep thinkers, we're able to kind of access this part of us, this creative, very unique part, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: That a lot of people have to really do some stuff to access, right?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: But here we are just going in and out.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it can also have the other effect when we think about um societal stigmas of like daydreaming and all, you know, hearing all these things at such a young age, of like, or not even hearing them, but feeling them, being so hyper-vigilant to the way that others perceive you and how you're seen, of like, oh, you're daydreaming, you don't care.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're not putting enough effort in, right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: So all of these things take a toll on relationship to oneself and to herself and to seeing again identity, but to seeing herself as like, who who am I?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Am I this person that, you know, when we think about all these stigmatizing things, like this is me?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I really see um, I think there's beautiful aspects too of like you also get to move through some really intense things that maybe other people don't get to move through, but also there's this like beautiful move through where like you get to see all these amazing parts of yourself too, and you're turned towards that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think there's there's two sides to everything.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then there's the other side, right?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Where it's really difficult.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's so difficult to be able like to have to, you know, challenge so many things that were placed upon you that that weren't true, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Regardless if they were said or not said.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes these systems enforce it, whether it's family systems, school systems, you know, even sporting systems.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the comparison piece is is pretty big in a lot of that, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like the comparing if a kid is getting called out for daydreaming while they're out in the field in the baseball game and they're not focusing, then it's well, you don't care because look at what everyone else is doing.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else is focused.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're ready for the game, right?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think a lot of these comparisons, whether it's being made towards us, like comparing two siblings or two kids, um, or if we're just comparing ourselves with others, I think many women already describe just feeling like they're falling behind.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that is coming from comparison from social media, watching other friends do it and wondering, like, how the heck are they doing it all?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and then, you know, internalizing that to saying we're not being enough or you know, something's wrong with me, a lot of these things.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, yeah, that feeling is so common that a lot of women, I've heard so many women, I've said it, like so many women have said it before of just like what's happening here.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else seems to kind of, you know, be picking up these things and doing everything well.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I'm feeling like I'm falling behind.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that goes to a lot of the things that you just mentioned, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of the processing piece, the comparison piece, the, you know, just kind of the flowing in and out um without really having an opportunity to shut it off or slow it down.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of these things can then, you know, impact.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time, because you brought shame up, like most of the time it does end up going into self-criticism or self-same, self-blaming.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then that isn't that doesn't really benefit us in any way.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: It really can harm us.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, like speaking of that, and then the opposite of that, which is perfectionism, can you talk a little bit about the cycle of perfectionism and ADHD?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, with regards to perfectionism and ADHD, I always like to look at it as like part, a part of us, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think it's so easy to, it's so easy, ADHD or not, to go to the critical and to say, like, what?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why is, you know, why do I have this part of me over here?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can you just go away?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I think when we really look at the adaptation of the perfectionist part or the perfectionist, even if we don't want to think about it in parts, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: The perfectionist adaptation of us, it really ties back to being being that, you know, kiddo, navigating a world that really wasn't built for the the beautiful differences of your mind, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: But you're having to fit into this structure, right?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe um, I know I can speak to my experience of like falling behind in certain places, right?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then feeling that whether it's criticism or disappointment or whatever, and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm trying my best, right?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I still can't get there.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: So then this perfectionistic part is formed of like, again, I'm gonna keep you on high alert.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: I really think nervous system, when we think about ADHD, is super important because ADHD is like the interest-based nervous system, right?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm really interested in something, I'm gonna be highly engaged, highly activated towards that.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, with this perfectionistic part, right, what is it doing?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Really, it's actually adapting and it's doing something for you, even though I will say in times that it can be very maladaptive, right?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not as helpful sometimes.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: But really, what it's doing is it's jumping in and it's saying, I'm gonna keep your brain and your nervous system super activated so that you can progress, so that you can achieve.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: We always talk about high achievers too with ADHD of, you know, I'm gonna make sure I'm 20 steps ahead so that, you know, I can avoid and this perfectionistic part often is like avoiding the criticism, avoiding that rejection, right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: So self-protection.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Totally, right?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I really love the idea of parts work because I think we can then understand the stories of where did that come from?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Why does this cycle keep showing up for me?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it it totally does, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we have so many different chapters of our life that I think, and I I attest to this of like I've worked with my perfectionistic part, and then it shows up in another, you know, chapter of my life.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, what?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: So why are you here?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you showing up right now?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's the idea that like, you know, we can understand it rather than push it away.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think does that answer your question?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it does.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, like you, we we've talked a little, you've mentioned um perfectionism a couple of times.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it does really show up in all of the ways that you mentioned.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: But with the self-criticism, because that's so high, whether there's an ADHD diagnosis or not, what do you think are some ways women can begin rebuilding self-compassion after years of self-criticism, especially, you know, that can kind of, as you pointed out, that self-critical part can show up at different times, even though we feel like we've kind of, you know, made peace with that, with that part or set that part aside, it can still show up.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So what are some things we can do to rebuild?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: I, yeah, rebuild self-compassion.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: What a, what a big one, eh?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think with self-compassion, a big piece of it is getting curious.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think, and this is again why I really always, especially with ADHD, I think parts work is helpful because we can start to build that curiosity, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to, we don't have to love the reason and adaptation for something, right?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: We can say, like, you know, I want to change this.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want this to be kind of controlling all aspects of who I am and understand.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: We can also take time to understand of like, okay, why is it doing what it's doing?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why did I start to build this piece up, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe it's because of all of these other interactions where I had to like fit in, belong, do the thing right, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then this came up, and this is the adaptation that's trying to keep me safe, even though maybe now it's not so helpful, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think curiosity is a big way to build self-compassion.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because when I can just get curious, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: I almost think of curiosity as like the battler to self-criticism, right?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because self-criticism is like, you did this wrong, you're the you're the wrong, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Identity.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas curiosity is like, well, wait a second.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna take a second to actually explore, like, wait, why?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then it opens the door, even just a crack to kind of understanding, like, well, it makes sense, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: It makes sense where why this is coming up.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, another way for building self-compassion is is honestly, um, and we kind of talked about this with Pilates, which I think is so cool, is like the mind-body connection, right?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because with ADHD, we can be so in our mind.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and especially as women, right, the presenting like mind busyness, getting into your body can actually build a lot of self-compassion.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think we talk about that enough, but how movement and really being able to, I always think about Pilates, and like I remember um I go to a local place here in Midtown and they just teach really well with like how when you're doing your hip thrust, your back is a certain way, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't take anything of that.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: But then when you really think about it, you're like, wow, that's like me actually physically connecting.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can actually feel the muscles in my body.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know what's going on, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: You have this spatial awareness and connection to like who I am when we can connect through the physical, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's another way to build self-compassion, especially if we're struggling, getting curious.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm laughing because at Pilates recently, she was like, no, bring, bring, close up your ribs.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what do you mean?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like your back is hurting because you're and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so funny.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, I with ADHD and the comparison piece, a lot of people are trying, you know, they're coming to see me or they're or they're seeking therapy or they're trying to figure, you know, out how can they still do the tasks that need to be done.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when their ADHD may sometimes feel like it's getting in the way.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of the time that goes into self-blame and that self-critical part.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And people really struggle with the difference between like keeping ourselves accountable.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: So still wanting and you know, working towards a goal of like getting those tasks done or finishing off that assignment or getting that work thing done.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it it's hard because then we can use a lot of tough self-blame kind of quote unquote love.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it doesn't actually feeds more into that self-critical part.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can somebody tell the difference maybe between holding themselves accountable um and not falling into that self-blame spiral?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think, again, I would go back to nervous system with this one because I think nervous system can hold a lot of information and tell us a lot.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: When I'm holding myself accountable, I'm still in that place of, you know, and I say regulation not as like, oh, we're peaceful and calm.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what regulation is, right?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm regulated, I'm aware.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm, you know, even if I'm in my my activation, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still able and conscious and I have that awareness around myself, right?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Versus um, when we think about self-criticism, and this, it's so interesting, right?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we think about it as a part, it's it's activating our nervous system to keep us aware, to make sure that we're not going to experience the rejection, that we're hyper-aware so that we can belong, right?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: So if I criticize you before anyone else does, then we can keep in line and make sure that we have these relational safety connections.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: If I criticize you hard enough, then if someone else criticizes you, it won't hurt as bad, right?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all these different ways to protect.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we can tell the difference because that activation state is more of an urgency.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's more of a nervousness, it's more of an intensity of like, oh my gosh, I have to do this, right?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And our nervous system flexibility isn't, you know, as great.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas when we're in this more, I'm holding myself accountable, it's more of that regulated state of like, I can be activated and feel like uncomfortable, but I'm still aware and I still know that, like, okay, this is what I need to do, right?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I can move through it versus I'm stuck in it.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a really good way is checking in with ourselves, even somatically, right?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Where am I feeling like, oh, I'm stuck and this is like so overwhelming and taking up all of my capacity versus feeling the feelings of discomfort.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying it's comfortable, right?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: To also be like, oh, you know, like I'm gonna hold myself accountable.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's not the stuckness, it's not that like freeze.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: I can move through it, right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I like the visual that you painted with that too, though, like of what it looks like in in our bodies, like yeah.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: So now with everything that you mentioned in terms of our relationship with ourselves, well, no wonder our friendships are impacted.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of self-blame, sense of belonging, our identities coming up, there's comparison, there's all of these things.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what challenges do you see women with ADHD commonly experiencing while main maintaining friendships?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think um, and I think there's differences uh in different types of friendships.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like if we think about um friendships where there's neurodivergence, right, versus um a neurodivergent person and a neurotypical person, right?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a different level of understanding for two people who are neurodivergent, but I think some of the challenges that can come up when we think about executive functioning, right, which is the organizing, the planning, the executing, um, the keeping up with things, right?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Those all, those are all impacted sometimes in friendships, right?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Where maybe I'm forgetting to reply back, like, oof, I have me and my friend who are both, we both have ADHD.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: We will send each other a message and then go like a month, and then I'm like, oh, I forgot to respond, right?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: But because there's that mutual understanding between us and she gets it, right?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: But it's also the executive um functioning pieces, not having that consistent regulation.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and maybe, you know, planning is a big one, like not being able to consistently keep to plans, um, being able to like execute or reach out.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that's also impacted.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And for someone who doesn't understand ADHD, that can be taken as or interpreted sometimes as maybe not caring.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe uh I can't rely on them as much, right?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they're not interested in our friendship.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the other pieces too is like time blindness, right?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a really big one with ADHD.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh again, you can go back to the text example, not responding to a text right away, right?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe I think that I have enough time to meet a friend, but I show up really late, right?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm like, oh, which I've I mean I've totally done.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think these are things totally that we can we can also work within, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Once we start to understand our brain and the way our brain works and the interest-based nervous system, I love that concept because I think it's so important for finding tools and things that work for us, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Especially within relational um pieces.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think without that understanding, um, sometimes that can really impact friendships and people might interpret it as something that it's not.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: In those cases, what do you suggest um, you know, to maintain that friendship?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because yes, I've heard from a lot of people in my professional and personal life who are like, they're not texting back.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that they don't care about our friendship.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or how could they forget to reply back when they're always on their phone, you know, or you know, we we schedule this appointment and it's been rescheduled four times, and I'm the one having to shift things around.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then they have to, you know, make that change.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I I do want to, you know, validate everybody here that yeah, it's hard.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard for, you know, the neurodivergent friend having to, you know, feeling maybe upset or feeling really bad for forgetting to reply or for missing the appointment, whatever the thing could be, but also for the other friend, um, that can be hard.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: But how can we communicate so that this could be understood as you as you and your friend in the example that you described?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: You both understand each other.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like no hard feelings, able to kind of pick up again, check in with one another.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if we're talking about maybe a neurodivergent, neurotypical relationship, how can um that communic uh the communication, I guess, what can the communication be so that that friendship is maintained?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think I really love this question, actually, because uh adult friendships as a whole are like the most, you know, mysterious, like complex things ever.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think especially just getting to know someone in general, right?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Identifying the things that maybe might come up can be really helpful.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: And depending where we're at in the stage, right?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you think about friendships and dating with and having ADHD, those are new, those are exciting, those are novel.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes our brain is like very intensely focused on it, right?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we might not notice some of these executive functioning regulation pieces as much.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it might not show up and in in kind of the first little stages, and as we progress, I think disclosing some of these things to our friends, um, to dating partners, right?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: If if that feels right at that time.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: But hey, just so you know, like if I don't respond back to a text for like a day or two, it actually has nothing to do with you.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is the reason, this is what's going on for me, right?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Explaining a little bit of that.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that we have to disclose everything, um, but just disclosing those little bits of, you know, if I'm late, I'm really trying not to do that, right?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really, and again, it's not to say that it's all.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: On the friend who um maybe is doesn't have ADHD, right?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: But this is where we meet in the middle of like identifying these are maybe the areas that will come up, or maybe some of the things that I sometimes struggle with, right?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I struggle responding to a text.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I might be able to go on social media, but it's actually just because it's like mindless in that moment.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas I actually want to put thought and energy into it responding to you.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that takes a lot out of my battery, and I want to make sure that I'm doing it consciously, right?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: So even just identifying those things, because I think, yeah, from the outside in, we can see it and be like, why is this person on social media?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they can't respond to my text, right?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: You and I sometimes I get wrapped up in that, right?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but like reminding ourselves, like, well, okay, um, as a friend, maybe they have something else going on.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: And do I do the same thing sometimes?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: A hundred percent, right?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think having that open communication is super important as you start to build up um in your friendship too, right?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: And to kind of hit those things head on before they happen.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then it opens up conversation for when they do happen, right?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we navigate this together?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, it's there's also uh pieces that as someone who has AHD, we can um put in place, right?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know for me, I've set like a time limit of like, okay, if I'm really out of capacity, then I'll give like a two-day response and like I'll let some of my friends know that, right?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or if I'm really struggling and they've sent me something that's super important, just with sticking with the text example, I might say something like, Hey, I'm really out of capacity right now.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to respond to this and give it a lot of thought.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to let you know that I've seen it and I'm gonna respond, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that sometimes is the meet in the middle, right?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: Of like, you're important to me and I want to show you that.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even though, you know, that's not necessarily, it's not that it's not important, but this is where we want to start to meet people in the middle and and be aware of like how we all function in relationships because it's gonna be so different, right?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I will be for sure.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I appreciate you sharing that like at the beginning of a friendship or the beginning of a relationship, things can feel like you're always spending time together.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're really good at responding, you're really like good at the planning or whatever, because there's just so much excitement in that.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's normal in any relationship, right?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: At the beginning stages, everything just feels so new and exciting.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then once that friendship or relationship is in, then we it kind of goes more to our regular kind of state, right?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're living with that person or we're seeing them all the time, or we're spending a lot of time together.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then some of these um, some of these challenges can then kind of present themselves at that point, and then it can be confusing for one or both people to be like, what is happening?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Things were so well a few months ago, and now it's not, now you're not responding, or whatever it could be.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure some women feel guilty about forgetting to respond to texts or missing special days or special occasions or losing touch.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how does guilt kind of play a role with ADHD within friendships?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think with regards to guilt, um it's I think it it's that's kind of a yeah, I think honestly it does.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: It comes up, obviously, right?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I always hear the thing like, I feel like I'm bad.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not good at making friends, or I'm bad at friendships, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I'm sure many of us can relate to that, right?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Even outside ADHD.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think a big piece with guilt is separating my identity of like who I am, right?
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Outside of, you know, this is just some of the differences in my brain, right?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because we tend to create an identity around the experience.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whereas like with guilt, I think I also think guilt is just a natural experience that we have as humans, right?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think about it evolutionarily, right, guilt was a thing that kind of supported us in community to kind of keep together.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think it's important to understand like, is this guilt coming from I want to, you know, show up a little bit differently, or is it coming from more of that shame place, right?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think sometimes people don't recognize that it's actually not guilt, sometimes it's shame.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: And also, is the guilt coming from a place that makes sense?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or is this again something that's coming underneath kind of the surface of everything?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense when I say that?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when you say that, I'm thinking about um oh shoot.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: I lost it.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: I completely lost it.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's that's okay.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's gone.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: Shoot.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, that makes sense.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was so sad that I lost that.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I might even uh yeah, the guilt, like I think the way I explained it was weird, I think.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I think that was a good a good way to explain it.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to there was something about like underneath, and I was tying it back to something else that you said, and uh it's gone in this tired brain.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's okay.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I think guilt's it you're using curiosity, like you mentioned beforehand, right?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're using that curiosity to understand where that guilt is coming from and how it's showing up in that relationship or in that dynamic.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think looking at it with curiosity can just help us understand it a little bit more.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think too with the guilt pieces we can it it also helps us focus on repair.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because we, and I also want to say sometimes people pleasing comes into this too, where it might kind of cloud our view a little bit of like, oh, you did something wrong, right?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than like, is there something that came up that I I want to change within my friendship, right?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I think actually guilt can be helpful in some regards to help us focus on the repair and reconnecting, right?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Where shame wants us to isolate and like withdraw, which sometimes happens too in relationships with ADHD, right?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: With that rejection sensitivity, um, which kind of goes back to some of the pieces that might come up, um, the challenges that might come up in friendships and dating, I will say too, is we perceive rejection or criticism and we just we withdraw, right?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because we need to keep ourselves safe.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's the way our brain is working, that part is working, um, which actually can be a challenge, right?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because the the importance is that repair piece.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do I repair that?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or how do I even ask a friend?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I have a friend who also, again, has ADHD and we're so hyper-aware of each other that even a slight shift, we might perceive a neutral kind of reaction as you know, negative, but it's actually not.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's just we're very um very in tune emotionally that any shift is gonna set off an alarm in our brain, right?
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think um the repair piece and and guilt can actually be very helpful, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: As long as we're not like sitting in that piece.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that because yeah, I would agree with you with a again, with people in and out of my personal or professional life.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like um, yeah, there is a lot of conversation of um uh like, oh, I I meant to text them like two days after that initial text.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's been a month, so I'm just not, I'm not, I'm avoiding them at all costs.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to talk to them.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot of the shame that's leading to them just completely like calling, like just staying away from the relationship, which obviously is gonna have a big impact on the relationship.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always what they want.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time, they're like, I do care about this person, I do care about this friend, but because it's now been a month since their last message, I don't even like the shame is just kind of getting in the way from them, maybe communicating back to them or saying, Oh my gosh, it's been a month, I'm so sore, like whatever the thing could be.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that makes sense when we look at it with curiosity and seeing the protective part of us, like, of course, our shame's gonna be like retreat, retreat, like don't engage.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so yeah, when we look at it with that curiosity, I love curiosity.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when we are curious in a gentle way, it can just give us so much information and I think also help with the validation piece and and you know the accountability piece as well.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but friendships can be complicated, like you pointed out.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: Friendships, even in all aspects, adult friendships can be very complicated.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and intimate relationships can often bring up another layer of vulnerability.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: So moving into dating, how does ADHD show up in dating relationships?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, there's so many areas that we could talk about with regards to that.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: But um, one that I think is, you know, kind of a common one is the like the going back to the interspace nervous system, we are very excited, very interested, very, you know, sometimes when we're dating, so there might be this hyperfixation of like really thinking about the person, you know, going on one date with them and then picturing a whole future with them, right?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this excitement and all those like feel-good hormones in our bodies are going wild.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it it contributes to that hyperfixation.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: I would say too, the emotional uh regulation pieces.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's really cool that we're starting to actually look at that with regards to ADHD.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think they're actually thinking about putting it into not that I'm not that I'm like, you know, always following DSM stuff, but I think it's cool that they're they're thinking about that as a huge aspect because that also impacts dating, right?
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, rejection sensitivity.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm hyper aware of like how is this person responding?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are they giving me signals?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: And also I just want to say dating, you don't get these, this information.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: You don't actually know what they're thinking, you don't know what's going on for them, right?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: So then we can often read into things.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then sometimes um within dating and relationships, I will say, there's this over relational overcompensation where I'm gonna do so much more to ensure because of this rejection sensitivity, and I'm trying to avoid criticism, avoid rejection, right?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do so much in this and I'm gonna show my best self.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna, you know, do all these things so that I can show up this way.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think too, again, just like friendships, as dating goes on, sometimes, you know, we might start to notice um some of those pieces with executive regulation um not being always consistent, right?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: Where maybe we forget details, maybe um we struggle to manage certain societal expectations, right?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: I love the quotations because I just feel like it gives a little, you know, that's what I'm talking about.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um the impulsivity, right?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um when we're dating and we're excited, we might like overshare and tell so much about ourselves, right?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then reflect on and be like, did I say too much?
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um having some awareness just around this and around kind of how when we get those excited feelings, we know that like, oh, that's our interest-based nervous system kicking in, right?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: And to have some awareness is is a little bit of half the battle when we start dating, because I think it's important to kind of remind us sometimes to slow down, right?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: If we're kind of jumping way ahead to check in with us about, you know, the I always think about the the circle of relationships where you have your inner circle, then you have this outer circle where you share a little bit more.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then so thinking about where does this person fall right now, even before we go into dating, um, which they're obviously gonna fall a little bit farther out, right?
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: So what do I actually want to share with them?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Having some prep, I think is really helpful when we're dating um and we live with ADHD, right?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: And to remind ourselves that like novelty hits that dopamine, right?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: It keeps us like so excited and maintains the level of engagement and reminding ourselves like this, this is also you know a point of like excitement and and it should be, right?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: Dating can be fun and exciting, and reminding ourselves like this isn't always gonna be like the consistent theme, which is just it's it's natural, it's human, right?
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: Even outside of ADHD.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: I like that that sounds really tough identity-wise, right?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because we may be wanting to show our true selves well, or a better version of ourselves that is, you know, like a kind of like a mask that we're putting on or a different identity that we're stepping into.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and that can be hard both for that person and the partner or the person that they're engaging with.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, that again, it's also very vulnerable because as you said, a lot of information can be shared, a lot of vulnerable hangover or being not forced, but maybe feeling the um um the expectation that the other person wants you to now open up and be more vulnerable as the relationship progresses can also be hard.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what patterns do you commonly see in women in with ADHD when they're dating?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think at different stages, different things might show up, like longer in the relationship.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I do see often, and and I, when we think about, you know, women with ADHD masking for so long, right?
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and and feeling like they have to mask to fit in, to belong to, you know, all of those pieces, that can also show up in relationships, right?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: Where um, you know, an example is your partner says, like, well, tell me about yourself, even at the beginning of this, right?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about yourself.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's a who am I?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: What do I like?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, because there's there's this, there's been this mask for a very long time that we've we felt we had to carry with us, or this protective part, right?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes it can feel like there's a disconnect from that authenticity of who we are.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, right.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I always want to say, like, that part is is there, that authentic part is there.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just sometimes these protective parts jump in the front to say, nope, you can't go there because we need to fit in, we need to belong, we need to, whatever it is, right?
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that can come up often um later on in relationships, um, cycles of overwhelm, right?
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking about even in friendships, like I'm I'm so overwhelmed because A, I'm out of my capacity, right?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: My executive functioning, the task management, the all these things is just like going overdrive.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then maybe I don't text the person back for a period of time.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then I feel really bad.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just gonna ghost them.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna withdraw, right?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't, oh, like it feels icky, it feels scary, it feels like, oh, I I did that thing, right?
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to be attached to that thing, so I need to avoid it, right?
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: There can also be um overcompensation, like relational overcompensation, which I've said before, which is where um I don't want to risk us losing this dating or relationship.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna be the person to put in 120%.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't have to put in that much.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna keep doing all of these things to make sure that this relationship keeps going.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't lose this relationship, right?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: Which also ties into some of our wounded parts, right?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: ADHD or not, but it can really tie into some of those, those more vulnerable, like you said, wounded kind of um experiences that maybe we've had where we really need to keep that relationship and keep that bond going, even if it's a detriment sometimes to ourselves.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then people pleasing and to avoid sometimes that that rejection piece of being so aware of like, I'm gonna do everything so that you're okay and then I'll be okay.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: Keep my nervous system in a state where I'm I'm connected, right?
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because those experiences of feeling isolated and othered often, or feeling like I don't fit in the box kind of growing up as a young girl with ADHD, they really do follow us too, right?
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: So belonging is such a huge piece.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: Identity and belonging is such a huge piece that we go through in identifying um within relational patterns.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I got a weird message.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I just needed to talk about that.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_04: That's okay.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and I think too, with rejection sensitivity, that can sometimes heighten all of these protective factors as well.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and dating already on its own is so complicated, right?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're trying to put your best first forward, like you know, your best face forward, like your best self forward to try to see if it works.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of vulnerability and just that going on a date can be, you know, really challenging.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like just there's already so much complexity in dating outside of, you know, bringing in an ADHD diagnosis and then having all of these things kind of existing internally.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then when we're talking about like formulated relationships, like how do you think ADHD influences conflict or disagreement in relationships?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think one thing I I would also put out to partners, if if you don't have an understanding about ADHD, uh, maybe you don't have ADHD and your partner has ADHD, to learn about it.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because even when we think about self-compassion, like learning about ADHD and the way that your brain functions, just differently, right?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's neither, it's neither good nor bad, it's just different, right?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a partner having a core understanding of that is is extremely important.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think um when it comes to conflict, when we think about rejection sensitivity, that's heightened, right?
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're in a um relationship and say your partner comes to you and says, I noticed that the dishes weren't done.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing, you know, I think about me and my partner, the first thing when I moved in, I was like, Are you saying that I don't do the dishes?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: Are you, you know, like you go into that state of like defensiveness, right?
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because there is that heightened sensitivity.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that can really bring up some of the core aspects of conflict.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the planning pieces sometimes can, you know, the organization can be uh another area that stems from conflict too, right?
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: Of especially when you're, I always think about the first initial stages, right?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're getting to know, say you live it together, you move in together.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're getting to know your partner, anyways, right?
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: You're your ADHD or not, you're gonna have differences in the way that you've lived before this partner.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so someone coming in who maybe struggles, uh, not struggles, but like has that difference in regulation at times with executive functioning, right?
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: The organization, the planning, it might look a little different.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: I know my desk looks drastically different than my partner's desk, right?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I think an important piece of navigating that conflict is also understanding that your partner is going to show up differently no matter what, because you're two different people.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: But it's about understanding with ADHD.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's about understanding the your partner's AD and then working together, right?
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_02: How can we um work together to, as an example, like figure out the dishes, right?
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's a very small, small example, but but that's a pretty common one, right?
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: It totally is, right?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_02: And even I know, like when I moved in with my partner, he is very like he's a type A person.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: I am probably a type F person.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm off the scale, right?
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: So meeting in the middle and understanding, like, okay, like maybe this dishes aren't gonna get done like immediately, but like, is there kind of a timeline for us together?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: Can we put figure that out just as an example, right?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I think navigating that conflict and and meeting in the middle of whatever that looks like, and the middle doesn't always mean, you know, 50-50.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's there's a piece of like, you know, I'm gonna give 60, you're gonna give the 40, right?
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's important, especially with ADHD, to remember that.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, also important to remember we're never gonna go to zero symptoms, right?
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's a part of who we are, and that's it's also a very beautiful thing, too, right?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many beautiful aspects that come with ADHD and relationships.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, I think there's a bit of a balance, but also like this goes back to like open communication, right?
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: When I yeah, when these conflicts come up that you know are directly probably tied to the ADHD pieces, right?
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: The executive functioning pieces.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do we navigate this together, right?
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than it's a you issue.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of vulnerability in communicating in any stage of your relationship with in a romantic relationship, at any stage, it still is a lot of vulnerability to communicate and say, let's meet somewhere in the middle, or hey, this is how my brain is operating the situation.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hear about how your brain is operating.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, they're different.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how can we work through this together?
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that again, like it's so important, but I don't.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Want to just say, like, oh, it's so easy, go and do it.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: There it takes a lot of vulnerability, it takes a lot of self-awareness to understand what's showing up for you in a certain moment so that you're able to articulate it in a way that your partner is going to understand or at least take it in.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then again, from the, you know, the other part, the other partner.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: If we're talking about a partner that doesn't have an ADHD diagnosis, wanting to communicate with their partner who does have an ADHD diagnosis, that can also be tricky because of the rejection sensitivity.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so it again, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of nerves, anxiety, whatever, for a conversation to happen over the dishes or over the laundry or hey, put your stuff, whatever the thing is, it's going to be uncomfortable for a little bit.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we just have to kind of be in that space because I think at the end, it's, you know, there's going to be some awareness on each other and hopefully a plan for how to move forward, right?
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a beneficial conversation.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to feel a little weird, and that's okay.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but are there any maybe common misconceptions that partners may have about ADHD-related behaviors, like in the sense of like communication or just other house kind of uh relationship kind of behaviors?
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think, and again, this can go back to the same thing that maybe we see in friendships, right?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: Of like um, you know, not following through on certain tasks and it being interpreted as like not caring or forgetting to forgetting an event with your partner, you know, or showing up late.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it feels like, oh, this person must not be as invested as I am, right?
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, especially if it's something important to the other partner, right?
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think those pieces can be as well as when we think about reject rejection sensitivity and the defensiveness, right?
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: My partner's not hearing me.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_02: They're just defending, right?
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than sitting with it.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: But when we have that rejection sensitivity, of course, we're gonna come in with kind of that um defensive nature, right?
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because we need to protect, like it's not just about, it's not just about the dishes, it's now about my character, right?
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I think also the thing that I really loved, I think um when we think about Gotmans, right?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_02: And in relationships of like giving your partner the benefit of the doubt.
• 1:08:33
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that because I also think in ADHD it's so perfect.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because when we start to, you know, what happens when we then go into, I'm just thinking, like a talking about our ADHD partner, right?
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: And saying, like, okay, well, they just don't care.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: They just don't, you know, that's criticism.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what's that gonna do?
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's just gonna put us in the same place as like when I was growing up being criticized by all these people, right?
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: And now I have to just mask myself.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_02: The most beautiful thing I think that we can do a partner um who maybe doesn't have ADHD or who does have ADHD, but is also with a partner who has ADHD is giving them the benefit of the doubt and being curious, right?
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which I think can also bring down those defenses, right?
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: Of, you know, I'm not, I'm not actually, I don't care about the dishes.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like curious, like what was going on for you?
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is there a way I can support you?
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that really changes the dynamic.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's still gonna be uncomfortable, it's still gonna be weird and strange, and you're like, oh, I'm a baby dear on ice, right?
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's it's the way that we come towards our partner, right?
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_02: Who who has ADHD to kind of lessen some of that.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then also getting curious about like, you know, what is the barriers, right?
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like if it's time blindness, because that comes up a lot within relationships too, right?
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think about my partner and I'm like, we're going out the door, and I'm like, just wait a second, I have to do X, Y, and Z.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm like half hour later.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, what?
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but just an example, right?
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Of like, how do we work together?
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is it like, hey, is it better for me to tell you that we're leaving a half hour before?
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, does that helpful?
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it is, maybe it's not, right?
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: But working together to figure out the best practices as a couple, right?
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And not making it about just the individual is so, so important as these um pieces come up in relationship.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think flexibility for both to meet, like as you pointed, somewhere in the middle, which sometimes could be 50-50, other times it could be 40, 60, 30, 70, whatever.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, thank you.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is, yeah, I think curiosity has been a word we've used a lot here too.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for a partner, a friend to just be curious and speak up and communicate, um, I think that is like first step, right?
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: It could be really helpful.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as we're kind of like wrapping up and moving into the end of our podcast, what are a couple of things that maybe you wish every woman with ADHD would know?
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I wish that every woman with ADHD um would know just how beautiful that their brains are and like how amazing and creative.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I always think about how when you look at like those in creative professions, how many of them actually have ADHD?
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And to to have such a skill like that is actually so incredible.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we live in such a deficit-based society, an ableist society, right?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's very structured and we have to fit into these different pillars, right?
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think we sometimes don't see the multifaceted nature of ADHD and like all the amazing things that it brings too, right?
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_02: The emotional depth and connection you can get with a partner or just a friend or whoever, right?
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that's one, that's one thing that I would really want them to know.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and another thing is like, I know we've said it a thousand times, but getting curious, right?
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because curiosity can build that that self-compassion um that we're looking for, right?
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that we're when we think about authenticity, it can really connect us to that part of us.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I think those are a couple of things that I I'd really just want to put out there.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And what's maybe like a practical step that someone could take this week if they feel like they're struggling in relationships?
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's two parts to this.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Part of looking internally, right, with ourselves and the relationship with ourselves.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because when we think about maybe shame as an example is coming up, right?
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_02: We might speak to ourselves very differently, right?
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: So understanding like, how would I speak to someone that I love, right?
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than from this very critical protective part.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we're thinking about turning towards our relationship, right, we could start by saying, like, what support or what is a need that would be really helpful to get met with my partner in my relationship, in my friendship, right?
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And how can I meet my other friend partner's needs as well, and opening up a little bit of conversation around needs, right?
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: To kind of start to dip into that vulnerability, especially when we know like vulnerability can feel really scary, right?
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_02: But even just addressing like what are the what are your needs?
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that I've noticed that I would love for us to start tapping into this need for me, right?
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Keeping in mind the emotional safety because I know that vulnerability, um, you know, we can't be vulnerable if we don't have that emotional safety.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that's one step towards is that relationship with self and then turning towards other relationships too.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and start the conversation.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think again, yeah, vulnerability.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's scary, it's awkward, it's all those things, but it can also be a really important thing for that relationship.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, thank you so much, Molly.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people learn more about your work?
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: How can people connect with you?
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so I um two places.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I work for a private practice, uh, mind online, Ashley Mariani's practice.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_02: You can find me there.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can also find me on Instagram at Molly.theintegrative therapist.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: So feel free to check me out.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Feel free to follow me if you'd like to.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, please reach out too if you have any questions.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we will put Molly's information in our show notes so you can connect with her further.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like I said, thank you so much.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Today's conversation, I think, really resonated with a lot of people.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of women especially are, you know, uh I found myself being like, yeah, yeah, to a lot of the things that you said, also.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that this will be meaningful for a lot of our listeners.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you again for being here.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I can't say thank you enough.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it was awesome.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure to follow us on Outside the Therapy Room Pod, and we will see you next time.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search or search through psychology today will help you find a therapist near you.