Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Know Your Workplace Rights

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Know Your Workplace Rights · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Hello, and welcome to Chatting With the Experts, where I speak with
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amazing women from Africa, from the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
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Our topic is
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Know Your Rights, Keep Your Career, and The Insider's Guide
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to Workplace Accommodations.
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My guest says you have more workplace rights than you think, and that
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most employees don't know how to use them without risking their careers.
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She is the founder of Informed Choices Strategy, a workplace rights coaching
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practice that helps employees navigate accommodation requests, disabilities
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disclosure, and complex workplace dynamics with confidence and clarity.
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There's so much more I can say, but I'll let her do that.
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And with that, I wanna welcome Dr. Allison Butler to Chatting With the Experts.
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Hello, Paula.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Absolutely.
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I know I could have elaborated on your very impressive bio,
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but that's why you're here.
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Yes.
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Yes, definitely.
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You've said that most employees don't know their rights
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Absolutely.
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No, it's so true.
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I even wanted to start with something most people don't know about workplace
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accommodations, and part of that is that I've spent over 20 years sitting
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on the other side of the table, and not just sitting at the table, running
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the table and teaching about the table.
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So yeah, so I built my career, as both a leader and an educator in the
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accommodation system, and I served as a director level leader at a
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private university, and healthcare system where I led the office that I
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reviewed accommodation requests across thousands of students and employees.
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I've also served as a director of a large online university- where
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I built, policies and led teams, that served tens of thousands of
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working adult students, nationally, as well as hundreds of employees.
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I also held a program leadership role at a community college, and I've served
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at federal department agencies as a reasonable accommodation coordinator,
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working under human resources.
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And I've noticed throughout my entire administrative career, even
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at the height of running these offices, I never stopped teaching.
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So I'm currently an adjunct associate faculty member, and I've been in the
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classroom continuously for years.
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That matters because coaching is, as we know, just teaching
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one person instead of 30.
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So I'm not new at working or helping people understand systems
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they didn't write, and I've been doing that my entire career.
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So when I say I know the system from the inside, I don't
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just mean I worked inside it.
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I mean I built policies, I've trained staff, I set the standards that other
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people enforced and taught next generation of professionals how to do the work.
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So I hold a PhD in counselor education, a master's in rehab counseling,
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and over two decades I served as a certified rehabilitation counselor.
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And across all these roles in all of those sectors, I saw the same pattern, that
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employees who got what they needed weren't the ones with the most severe conditions.
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They were the ones who knew how to ask essentially.
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So I launched Informed Choices Strategy this year because I decided I was
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done watching brilliant professionals lose ground in workplace conversations
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they were never taught how to have.
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And overall, that's the work.
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I can hear this pain in your voice because as you said, it's the strategy of
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knowing how to ask for what is your right.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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And we were mentioning earlier about the biggest myth.
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Yes.
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This one costs people their careers every single day, and is that asking for
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an accommodation is a sign of weakness or that is gonna make you a target?
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And the truth is, accommodation is a federally protected legal right under
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the Americans with Disabilities Act.
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it's not a favor, it's not a perk.
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It is not something your employer is doing for you.
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It's more of a structured, lawful conversation that you would
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be entitled to have if you're somebody living with a disability.
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And but, here's why the myth survives.
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Unfortunately, most employees only see this process when
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something has already gone wrong.
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And they're already exhausted.
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They're already underperforming because they've been masking and pushing through.
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… They're already in conflict with the supervisor, and then they ask
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from the weakest possible position.
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And here's what I want the audience to know is because I led these
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offices, I can tell you with absolute certainty the strongest performers
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I encountered as a director and ADA compliance officer were almost
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always the ones who came to us early.
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Not because they were the weakest, but because they were the most strategic.
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They protected their careers, their reviews, their bonuses, their promotions.
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So the reframe I want every working professional listening to take
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away is, is mainly this, that accommodation is not the last resort.
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It is a performance preservation tool, to use it upstream,
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and that's the entire game.
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Wow.
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Wow
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So, a question I have for you is what exactly is the informed choices framework?
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Because I think every employee needs to know that.
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Yeah.
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Thank you so much for asking that.
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I would say it's the heart of my coaching.
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The three pillars essentially are disclosure, the actual accommodation
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request, and then documentation.
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And the order matters more than people realize.
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Mm-hmm.
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So for the audience mainly to hear me when I say this, that this is the
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exact framework I train my own staff, to look for when they were reviewing
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accommodation requests, and it's the same framework essentially I've taught
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in university classroom for years.
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I am now teaching, the working professional the other side
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of the desk what the people behind the desk are evaluating.
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Okay.
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So disclosure is about strategy, not transparency.
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Most people think disclosure is binary.
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You either tell or you don't.
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That's pretty much wrong.
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So disclosure is more of a spectrum, and you can disclose
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the existence of a condition without disclosing the diagnosis.
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Mm-hmm.
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You can disclose to HR without disclosing to your manager.
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You can disclose functionality, meaning you describe the impact of your work,
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not necessarily the medical details.
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Got you.
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So where you land on that spectrum is the most important decision
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you'll make in that entire process.
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And then the second piece is the actual request, which is about specificity.
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I would say the single biggest reason accommodation requests got denied in
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the offices that I led wasn't because the request was unreasonable, it was
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because the request was too vague.
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So when someone says, "I need flexibility," that's not really a request.
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Or framing it more so "I need to start at 10:00 AM Monday through
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Friday, and my shift my end time accordingly," is more of a request.
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I teach my clients, how to translate their lived experience into
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operational language an employer can actually say yes to essentially.
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And then documentation is all about protection.
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Everything in writing, every email saved, every conversation followed up with a
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recap email not because you're planning to sue necessarily, it's just because
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documentation is the difference between he said, she said, and here's the record
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and documentation ironically is what prevents you from ever needing to sue.
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So that's really the importance.
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Okay.
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So if disclosure, you don't necessarily have to give any
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medical reason and document- Yes.
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no, no You do have to have a medical reason.
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You have to qualify, but it's a large, broad range of conditions.
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there's categories, like there's physical, mental health, there's nervous system
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conditions, there's chronic illnesses.
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There's a whole gamut.
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So you do have to have a official diagnosis.
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Oh.
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It's just that how much … You don't necessarily need to
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disclose all the details.
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like for instance, let's say you have diabetes.
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You might not necessarily be taking insulin, so you might not need
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certain accommodations that you might need if you were taking insulin.
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So depending on like the level of severity and the impact to you
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and what you're requesting, that's where you're tying in how the
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disability's impacting you at work.
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But like some people focus on, they just give like their whole MyChart,
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So now it's clear.
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to, for someone to review, and it's we don't need all that information.
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You know what I mean?
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so that's mainly the difference.
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Times they think that they give all this information about disabilities
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or multiple diagnoses thinking they're gonna get more accommodations, but it's
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really specific about tying what your diagnosis is to the functional impact.
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So when I was using that flexibility example earlier, a lot of people will
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say, "I need flexibility because I have ADHD," or, "I have a chronic illness
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that, like my medication makes me drowsy.
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I'm usually drowsy between, I don't know, 6:00 AM, to 9:00 AM, and come arriving at
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10:00 AM to work," you know what I mean?
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Having that flexibility to arrive later and move, and shifting
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my end time accordingly, is the most effective, assistance,
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accommodation that I would need.
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So it's just changing that, instead of just regurgitating everything
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that your doctor has told you in the course of managing your condition.
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No one needs to know all that.
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It's just really specific to how you're impacted at work.
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Okay.
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And I see why it's important to have that informed choice framework because… Yes.
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… There's a fine line.
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You need to be guided, in other words.
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Yeah.
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You need that guidance.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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And unfortunately, depending on, sometimes depending on who you're
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working with, so a lot of times it is a HR professional depending on the
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industry and how large the organization or industry that you're working in.
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sometimes it's somebody who's a diversity person.
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Sometimes it's … there's such a range of individuals that might be
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reviewing this, so that's why it's important, 'cause they're not medical
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professionals so you don't need to get deep into the diagnosis per se.
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It's just accepting the fact that you do have one, and that
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how more so you're impacted.
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So like you said, that, I think that's where my framework comes into play, just
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trying to help guide folks to not over…
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overdiscuss
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… overshare.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Got you.
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So talking about HR, you mentioned…
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Yes
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… that HR is not your advocate.
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Let's talk a bit about that.
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And I do need to preface this because I want to be very
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careful here because I have deep respect for all HR professionals.
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And I have many friends, in my network that were top leaders in HR, okay?
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So … just want as a disclaimer.
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and grateful for the work that they do.
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but many of them, are good ethical people doing hard work.
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I know because I led the office that worked alongside them.
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I've taught many of them in, trainings over the years.
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And I've worked under HR as well.
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So when I s- tell you this next part, I'm telling you from the inside.
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So HR works for the employer.
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Yeah.
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Their job is to protect the organization from risk.
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So when I was the director, my paycheck was signed by the institution.
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My job by design was to protect that institution while complying with the law.
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So that's not a criticism, it's just the job description.
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And the moment employees understand that, I feel like everything should shift.
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So when you sit down with HR for an accommodation conversation, you're
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not sitting down with a neutral party.
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You're not sitting down with your advocate per se.
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You're sitting down with a professional whose duty of loyalty is to the
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company that signs their paycheck.
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However, they may be empathetic.
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They may be personally be on your side, but structurally they're not
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your representative, so to speak.
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So who is your advocate, let's say?
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Really you are and, or someone who you've hired, a coach, an attorney, sometimes
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a union rep, depending on your industry.
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So that's the entire shift for Informed Choices Strategy exists to create.
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So I'm not anti-HR at all.
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I'm pro you having someone in your corner who's unambiguously yours.
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And that's where you come into play now.
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Yes.
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You are on the-
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Absolutely
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… employee's side.
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Absolutely
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You're not anti-HR.
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Right.
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You are the advocate for the employee.
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Yes
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… to know their rights.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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As a worker.
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Yes.
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Yes, absolutely.
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All right.
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okay.
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Thanks for making that disclaimer because-
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Of course.
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Of course.
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Not 'cause I have too many friends, and I do not need no
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phone calls after this interview.
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I agree.
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Yeah.
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I respect everything they do.
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So there must be a story or a reason that you took on, you became an
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advocate- Yes … for the employee.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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It's really just informed by my work over the years.
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I, that's all I can say.
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I … It's just so many times I just see, if I had an opportunity to talk to this
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person before they started the process, I think they would've had a better outcome.
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The good thing is that the process, you can initiate it at any time.
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You can re-initiate it, at any time, but it's just that I feel that it
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just makes for exhaustion, employee exhaustion, fatigue, and resentment.
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And you know that whole saying, you can build a mountain out of a molehill so I
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just really wanted to have some type of platform that was easily digestible for
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folks because I never even knew what all this was until I got into the field of
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this work, and a lot of the ways I entered was through disability services and
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higher education and serving the college students and everything, and then my
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work grew into serving the employee side.
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But a lot of my training is about supporting individuals with disabilities
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in the area of job placement and retention and just making sure that, everybody has
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a right to participate and engage and make, money and, be supported in like
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their professional work environment.
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So that's really what speaks to why I got into this.
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And I have a lot of … I'm a ally.
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I have a lot of family members, a lot of friends.
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Any of us can enter a disability category at any points in our lives.
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Some conditions are permanent, some are temporary.
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Yes.
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So it's something that intersects every identity.
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Absolutely.
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as I-
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Yeah
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… As I stay on this earth longer and longer…
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Yep.
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I realize that, yep, things I could do so easily 10 years
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ago, I have to think twice- now.
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I'm-
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Right
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… negotiating things like steps.
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I'm like-
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Exactly
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… where's the ramp?
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Exactly.
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And nobody really talks about menopause and the impact of menopause for us
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as women when we get through, we have … There's certain types of
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accommodations you can ask for because it can be a disabling condition
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depending on how severe your symptoms are, and that's different from one
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woman, not just a woman, but person, but from one person to the other.
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Yeah.
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You're correct about that.
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You are so right.
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So in the same space, now that you are the founder of Informed Choices Strategy.
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I'm looking at things from the other side of the table.
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Tell us what happens or how do people deal with it when their accommodation
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request gets denied, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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What advice can you give?
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Because that can be painful, and when you don't know what you
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don't know, it's doubly painful.
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So I know that stuff can do it.
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Definitely.
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Definitely.
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And some people feel like they wasted time and resources.
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So it can get really deep in the weeds.
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but first, like I cannot stress enough, like a denial is not the end of the road.
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It's more so the middle, if you wanna reframe that.
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the ADA actually requires what's called, the interactive process and which means
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that your employer cannot just say no.
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They have a legal obligation to engage you.
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So to explore alternatives and to document why a particular
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accommodation creates an undue hardship.
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If those things, usually those things should be explained when you receive
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a denial, but sometimes it's not.
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And a lot of times it just depends how large your workplace environment is.
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For smaller offices they might not be as formal.
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For larger corporations, they're usually pretty formal, and they
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might be a little more restrictive.
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It also depends on the nature of your job and the work that you do
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because sometimes, the alternative that they're providing makes
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sense for the work environment.
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It might not be your preference or what you asked for, if they're providing
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an alternative, that is something.
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But what I usually… so let's say you've been denied.
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I always share three moves to make, right?
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So move one, ask for the denial in writing.
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And like I said, these are usually for the smaller organizations if they don't
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have like a formal process, but usually the ones that do, you'll have that in
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writing, but with the specific reason that most employers will resist this because
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verbal denials leave no paper trail.
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So I usually insist politely and professionally, but insist.
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but then move two, is to propose an alternative yourself.
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So this is where, my insider knowledge becomes everything.
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So employers are required to consider some alternatives, and if they're
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denied, i- if they denied your request for like full remote, that's usually
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the big thing right now, full remote work, and they propose more of a hybrid
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schedule, but you do have some in-person activities that you have to come in for.
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so let's say if they denied a specific software, you would
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propose a comparable tool.
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You're not surrendering, you're just keeping the interactive process alive.
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and then move three, I would just say escalate strategically.
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That might mean going above your immediate HR contact, and it
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might mean an EEOC, complaint.
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It might mean a private employment attorney.
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But here's why I can coach this with confidence.
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I have sat in the leadership meetings where the denials got reversed.
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I know exactly what kind of escalation works and what kind backfires.
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And so most employees either explode or evaporate when they
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get a no, so neither works.
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So there's a third path, which is documenting, it's strategic, it's
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persistence, and it's a path that I coach my clients through every single day.
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Okay.
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you mentioned an EEOC complaint.
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What is EEOC?
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That is the Equal Opportunity Office of Compliance.
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And, yes, so that's a federal agency.
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And usually because ADA is a federal mandate, some folks usually go
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through the EEOC complaint process.
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There's so many … we can get in the weeds with that, so that's why
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I don't necessarily think that's the… that's usually the last resort.
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But you have usually, once again, depending on the industry that you're in
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and the size of it, you already have an internal EEOC person, so you would reach
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out to them and start talking through.
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like I said, usually those industries that have more formal processes will give you
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direct contact to your EEOC contact, or give that information, let's say, in your
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denial to, you know, reach out to them.
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But usually it's after, you've done some attempts of requesting accommodation,
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getting denied, trying an alternative, or maybe if you're denied for an alternative.
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So it just really depends on when you would initiate that, 'cause
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it's not necessarily a fun exercise.
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Everybody's gonna participate in the way they need to, because retaliation's one
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thing that's covered in the EEOC review.
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So yeah, it just can get really messy, and I think, once again,
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that's another process that's out there, but you just wanna be
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strategic in the way that you use it.
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Wow.
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I can see that this is something that not only are you knowledge- very
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knowledgeable about, but this is something I think you're passionate about as well
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Yes, very much so.
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That's one thing I love about what I do.
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I speak with women who are not only, educating us- Yes … and, are inspiring
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and encouraging us, but they are passionate about what they do, and you
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definitely are passionate about this.
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But we could talk forever.
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Why don't we do this?
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Let's open up the floor for those who have joined us so they can ask
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you even more questions, and you can continue educating us on this.
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Oh, wonderful.
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So-
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I love that
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For those who weren't able to join us today, how can they get
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in touch with you, Dr. Allison?
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Yes.
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Oh well, the easiest place to find me, I would say, is my website, and that's
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informedchoicestrategy.net.
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Okay.
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And that's where my workplace coaching lives and where you can join the
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email list for, any new newsletters or products that I might be, advertising.
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but also I'm very active on LinkedIn, so you can just search Allison Butler,
25:54
PhD, and that's where I share weekly insights from my two decades inside
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the system and some of the current clients that I'm working with.
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And before I would let you go, I would wanna say that, one last
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thing is that, if there's one person listening today, who's been sitting
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on a workplace situation wondering if they're sick enough or disabled enough
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or disabled enough to deserve to ask, I should say, you are, and that the
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ADA doesn't have a severity threshold.
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It has a substantial limitation threshold.
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And you are allowed to ask for what you need, essentially.
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Thank you for clarifying that because everybody's-
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Yeah
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… life is worthwhile, and if you-
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Yes
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… are, you know, you have a disability, your life is worthwhile.
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Period.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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That is the best way to close it.
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Yes.
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And for those of you who joined us today and who are listening online,
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if you'd to be a guest just like Dr. Allison Butler has been, please
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reach out to me on my website, which is chattingwiththeexperts.com.
27:06
I'm also on LinkedIn.
27:07
You can reach out to me on my business page there, which
27:10
is Chatting with the Experts.
27:12
I am on Instagram, and my handle there is @chat_experts_podcast.
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I also am on Facebook.
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My business page there is Chatting With The Experts,
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and we have a YouTube channel.
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Please subscribe to us there.
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You will find Dr. Allison Butler's episode there, as well as all the other
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amazing women who have encouraged, empowered, educated us, just like she
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has, and inspired all of the women who are just like me and just like you, who
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need to know this information and this.
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And, now we will open up the floor to those of you who are here live with us
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so that you can get an opportunity to ask her all the questions that I haven't
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been able to ask her or forgot to ask.
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Thank you again, Dr. Allison Butler, for being such an amazing guest.
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Thank you.
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Thank you, Paula.
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Thank you so much for your platform and all the work that you're doing.
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It is not going unnoticed.
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Thank you.