Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / “Behind the FTX Collapse: A Father’s Story of Survival”: Joe Bankman

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“Behind the FTX Collapse: A Father’s Story of Survival”: Joe Bankman · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:03
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:07
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:10
nightmares that set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:19
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
0:23
humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
0:26
something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
0:29
built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back,
0:34
nightmare success in and out. Listeners, this is where you
0:36
come from. What happens when your worst
0:37
fear becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
0:40
overcome, set yourself free? I know I sound like a broken
0:43
record, folks, but don't forget to follow, subscribe, share this
0:46
thing out, like it up. It really helps the show and I
0:48
appreciate it. So who are we talking to today
0:51
on Nightmare Success? Well, talking to Joe Bankman and
0:59
he is the father of Sam Bankman Freed.
1:03
And if if you don't know who Sam Bankman Freed is, you probably
1:07
weren't around any TV or any newspaper or any streaming
1:10
service or anything over the last few years because Sam, he
1:16
was the founder of FTX and at one point Sam was listed as the
1:21
41st richest person on the Forbes billionaire list.
1:26
Things came crashing down November of 2022.
1:30
The company was forced into bankruptcy, led to a federal
1:34
indictment that followed and Sam going to a jury trial, being
1:38
convicted to 25 years federal prison at at the age of 33 and
1:44
ordered to forfeit $11 billion. This was a national story that
1:50
everybody was following. But there was a family that was
1:53
living through it, the Bankman Freed family was was was
1:57
surviving this nightmare day by day.
2:00
And a little bit about Joe Bankman.
2:03
Joe Bankman, yes, he is Sam's dad.
2:08
Joe is a very accomplished man. He's a leading scholar of the
2:12
tax law. He's been involved in a lot of
2:13
different bills of trying to simplify the tax code.
2:16
He's a clinical psychologist as well as a lawyer and a law
2:20
professor at Stanford Law School.
2:22
He's also hosted a couple of podcasts.
2:25
There was one that was called the Wellness cast, discussing
2:29
Wellness and and mental health within the legal profession and
2:34
the Stanford Legal Podcast. So he's, he's been around the
2:38
podcast world as well. I can't wait to jump into all
2:41
this because I think there's going to be an interview
2:43
discussion about how help people survive these type of events and
2:47
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Doctor not guilty. Mr. Joe Bankman, How are you?
4:00
I'm. Good.
4:01
How are you, Brent? I'm doing good I and the other
4:03
thing I was meant to say is, is that Joe and I I'm going to be
4:06
interviewing Joe at the white collar conference and when we
4:10
released this that will have already have happened.
4:13
But he's our keynote and subject matter being people often forget
4:19
about the family members that are surrounding around when the
4:23
federal indictment happens in a conviction and and what all goes
4:27
into that the feelings and and the ways that people tools they
4:32
use to survive. So white collar conference is
4:36
October 11th at 9:00 AM Eastern Standard Time.
4:41
No. Yeah.
4:42
Eastern Standard Time. So, Joe, I know, you know, you
4:47
are still going through, you know, a nightmare of appeals and
4:50
trying to get a pardon, the confrontations for Sam and
4:53
everything else. But can you take us back a
4:56
little bit? Because I, I'm interested in
4:57
your story of because, you know, before all of this happened, you
5:03
were, you know, a law professor and, you know, doing things and,
5:09
and making impact. And what got you interested in
5:14
in law? Well, I grew up in an earlier
5:19
age. I, my partner Barbara Fried,
5:22
Sam's mom, we're both kind of do gooders, and laws seem to be a
5:26
way you could affect change. And of course, it's got a nice
5:30
intellectual structure. So if you're the type of person
5:34
that thinks logically or think you do, law seems a nice
5:39
profession. Well, and I think it's
5:41
interesting how, you know, a lot of people will will pick a, you
5:45
know, a lane for themselves with law and you picked one that
5:50
would be for most people, especially if you're not math
5:55
oriented, tax law. How in the world did you find
5:59
your because you've become a scholar in that area.
6:02
What? What?
6:04
How? Well, the short answer and what
6:09
we say is a but for sense. I wouldn't have done it, but for
6:13
at law school, the person who taught tax was unbelievably
6:18
funny. So I took all of his courses,
6:20
Not because I started off with any interest in tax, I would
6:24
have scorned it, but they were great courses.
6:27
But you know, ultimately tax is about who gets to own what, and
6:32
it affects us in a lot of ways. So once I got into it, I got
6:37
hooked. And I'm not math phobic so it's
6:42
not fundamentally a math class, but numbers don't freak me out.
6:47
Well, you got really close to affecting the law, but was it by
6:52
one vote of in in California? Yeah, We came up with a way to
6:58
simplify tax filing, which is a nightmare for many of the 140
7:04
million families that file individuals and file.
7:08
And that is the state already has or the federal government
7:12
already has all the information they ask you to provide, almost
7:15
all of it. So why not start off by allowing
7:19
you or your accountant or your preparer to look in your file
7:24
and see what the state has on you.
7:26
And the same would be true with E filers.
7:28
Why not allow your E filing program to see what's already in
7:32
your file? So that was, that was a
7:35
proposal. And we fought, the good fought
7:38
and it was opposed by. Big company.
7:42
Interest to to protect. Exactly.
7:45
And that's usually what happens. Yeah.
7:48
Everything that makes sense does it at one point, because
7:50
somebody steps in with with a lot of money and they they can
7:54
stop some things. It's the thing about politics.
7:59
So getting into your world when all of this, you know, took
8:06
place, you know, Sam, you know, from all all that you can read
8:12
about him, I'm sure you thought at the time Sam's, Sam's a
8:17
pretty smart kid. Well, we knew he was a smart
8:22
kid, but we also knew he was someone that spent no money on
8:27
himself and gave everything away.
8:29
He'd done that as a trader on Wall Street, and he'd been done
8:32
that as a successful business person.
8:36
Yeah, and he was huge into philanthropy and.
8:39
And yeah, certain causes that affecting real change.
8:44
So when this company started to grow, I know you've got the mom
8:48
and dad sitting out here to decide, seeing their son
8:52
starting to build a company that a lot of people are talking
8:55
about. And, you know, it was becoming a
8:59
bigger, bigger player and, and all kinds of different things,
9:02
not just the business that he was in.
9:04
What were you and and and Barbara thinking?
9:08
Well, we thought it was wonderful.
9:10
Good for him. It wasn't our thing.
9:13
We didn't know anything about cryptocurrency.
9:16
When people talked about crypto, I thought it was like
9:20
cryptography, which it is related.
9:23
Well, I thought they were talking about codes or
9:26
something, Right, Right. And but we had our own lives.
9:30
So we're living our own lives. We're teaching.
9:33
We both love teaching and we write, and that's what we do.
9:39
I'm also a psychologist. Exactly and so.
9:43
I'm also seeing patients, so we're both very busy with our
9:47
own lives and cheering our son from afar.
9:52
So when this all started happening, did did anybody see
10:00
any of this? Because so many times when
10:04
things like this happen in business, it seems like it
10:07
happens all at once. Did is that what it felt like to
10:09
you as? Yeah.
10:11
And OK from the outside. And by the way, I should say
10:14
that I don't want to talk about my son's case, in part because,
10:19
of course, I'm completely committed to it and I don't want
10:23
to be seen as arguing a case. And we're still on appeals.
10:28
Our appeal is coming up in November.
10:32
So I'm only going to describe what it felt like emotionally
10:36
and not get into details. It's like you're walking along
10:41
the beach and a tidal wave hits you and you look out and one of
10:47
your family members is is swept to sea and everybody, your house
10:53
is ruined, All your possessions are gone and you're looking for
10:57
your other family members and thinking, how can I get a boat?
11:02
What do I do now? Being an attorney, I was always
11:11
curious with somebody has something like this happen and
11:13
you come from the legal side of it?
11:18
Did you? Is that one of the ways that you
11:21
were able to help was try to kind of finesse like what kind
11:26
of attorneys you needed and, and, and like as a dad with a
11:32
legal background, was that helpful or harmful?
11:37
Yeah, it's probably a little bit of both.
11:39
First of all, you end up being your own son's attorney.
11:44
We're now our own son's attorney just for financial purposes.
11:48
It's incredibly expensive to hire attorney.
11:51
So no matter what you start with, you're pretty sure in the
11:56
end to have nothing. That's the game.
12:00
That's how it games out, right? So, and it's a tough role to
12:05
play. And honestly, if you didn't have
12:07
to, I'd rather just be a dad. I'd rather not have to be the
12:11
attorney as as well. And you're kind of driven into
12:15
that. Does it help?
12:18
Nobody's prepared for this kind of thing.
12:20
I certainly wasn't. So it's a little bit like the
12:24
tidal wave hits. And the good news is, maybe you
12:27
were a lifeguard or something, or a good swimmer, but it's a
12:32
tidal wave. You have no idea of what to do.
12:35
And to the extent you're making calls, I'm not sure they're any
12:40
better calls than the average person would make, maybe worse.
12:44
It's a really good analogy though in a lifeguard.
12:46
But the tidal wave comes and it doesn't matter if you can swim
12:49
or not, it's just big. You're just going to go with the
12:52
water and and pray for the best. So did you have, you know,
13:00
looking at when something gets as big and my, our family had a,
13:06
a national story, but it wasn't anything to the scale of of
13:11
Sam's. How did you guys, did you have a
13:16
strategy as a family, how you would deal with the daily just
13:23
grind of all these stories out there?
13:26
Well, for protective reasons, we quit reading them one way or the
13:32
other be there are hundreds of them.
13:35
And you have to say, I think when you're in a in extreme pain
13:40
difficulty, what's going to help me survive till the next day and
13:46
is reading this account by reporter who's just reporting
13:50
and doesn't really know the facts.
13:53
Is it going to be helpful to me? And often the answer's no.
13:57
That's no matter what they're going to say.
13:59
SO1 protective thing is, we quit reading the news, which actually
14:06
had a few payouts. In general, if you heard News
14:08
Junkie because you're no longer following the news, what's
14:12
happening at the national level, it might as well be in India.
14:20
Well, I think, you know, my, I, I have three daughters and they
14:24
were teenagers at the time of this going on.
14:27
And we did the same thing. We, we came together as a family
14:32
and just said there's nothing we can do with whatever's being
14:37
said. We know that what we're working
14:41
on is where we have to be as a family and we're just going to
14:46
shut that off. And, you know, and I feel like
14:50
in that time of crisis that you, you know, for me, I hated it
14:55
that my family was having to go through it.
14:58
So, so I carried that extra burden of, you know, they had to
15:01
go to school, you know, they had to continue to do all the things
15:04
that they were doing. But they were here's dad stuff
15:07
that's out there. And, and in our case, we, we got
15:12
very lucky. You know, the girls were in
15:13
tennis and the coaches were very supportive.
15:16
There was a particular teacher that was helpful to my youngest
15:20
daughter so much that she carried that forward.
15:23
And now she's a teacher in high school because of that special
15:28
attention she was given in a good way through the crisis.
15:33
And did you? Because at the time, Sam, you
15:39
were kind of scattered? You were, I think Sam was down
15:43
in the Bahamas and you guys were at Stanford.
15:46
How did you handle that? Did you get together?
15:50
Did you come together? Yes.
15:54
And I think what you're saying, as I hear it, is there's there's
15:59
a lot of moments of grace and bonding that when you're in
16:04
crisis, while people you don't know might be saying terrible
16:09
things about you. And frankly, a government that
16:12
you love might be doing all it can to work with what you think
16:18
is counter to your interest and even counter to the right thing.
16:23
There's a lot of goodness that can be shown you, the tennis
16:26
coach, for your daughter. And I'm guessing that that's a
16:30
special memory for you and for her.
16:34
And we've been blessed with those same special memories, and
16:38
you never forget them. And they're often people we meet
16:42
now in prison, either other families that are waiting or
16:46
guards. And we can remember
16:49
extraordinary kindness given to us, say, by prison guards.
16:54
It didn't have to. They were just moved by a
16:58
parent's grief. And and that's really
17:02
meaningful. And that's true of friends and a
17:06
lot of people in our life. So the fact that you guys had a
17:13
life going on before this tidal wave, how was how was that?
17:20
How was that affected by Joe Bankman, the law professor?
17:27
Well, let me make sure of your question.
17:30
This is what lawyers always do. Are you asking how the rest of
17:35
my life, including that of law professor, was affected?
17:39
Yeah. Yeah.
17:41
Thank you. In some ways not at all, and in
17:46
some ways in a massive way, I know that sounds like what can
17:49
you do with this statement like that?
17:52
That's a lot. Let's unpack that Joe on.
17:54
Both sides, right? I love students.
17:59
I think they know that I really enjoy teaching and I think
18:05
they're very appreciative. And when I teach a class, if I'm
18:10
explaining something, students really want to understand what
18:14
I'm explaining. That's why they came to law
18:16
school. They're not thinking of this
18:20
guy's in the news. I really think that's who
18:23
they're trying to understand this difficult material and know
18:27
how it's going to affect them. How can they use that as
18:31
citizens, as lawyers and so on? So all of that often disappears
18:38
when you're face to face. And I'm wondering, Brent, if I
18:41
can turn the question around. Did you find that too?
18:44
When you're face to face in front of someone, all the
18:48
publicity kind of goes away. Absolutely.
18:53
I think the face to face is so much different than the
18:55
anonymous thing that goes around.
18:58
The other thing that I think happens is there's a, there's
19:01
also a sense of paranoia that you're things have gone out of
19:04
control. You know, a lot of times when
19:08
this happens to people and you know, if you trend it into the
19:11
white collar world, I think that the, the most hardest thing to
19:19
understand is wait a minute. I, I'm always somebody that can
19:23
solve things. How do I, how do I solve this so
19:26
I can put it away and move forward?
19:29
And it's one of the hardest things for somebody who's ACEO
19:34
or, or somebody who's used to being in control, to absolutely
19:38
feeling like you've lost control.
19:40
And that's part of this thing with the family too, is how do
19:44
you keep the family believing that?
19:48
And and that's why I think when you close the unit up that we've
19:51
got control of this bubble, can't control anything out here.
19:54
We're going to control this bubble we've got together.
19:59
I think that's a great strategy. That is when the doors close,
20:03
you're with loved ones, you can control to some extent what
20:08
you're thinking about what you're doing.
20:11
You can do things you find that are meaningful, that bring back
20:14
good times. And I think that we've tried
20:18
that too. It it is hard because.
20:22
You've got to kind of ride the wave, and that's also a concept
20:26
as a psychologist I would use for people.
20:29
It's a well known concept that is you've just got to go up and
20:33
down with the wave. But when it's a horrible wave
20:37
that has kind of destroyed almost everything you can see,
20:41
including lives of people you love or threatens to, it's
20:46
really hard to accept that. It is.
20:50
And I the, the other thing that I was wondering, because you,
20:53
you had been, you know, a, a professor at Stanford Law for a
21:00
while, did you feel where you were while this was going on?
21:07
Did you feel the support of that around you in that world?
21:16
The support of students and colleagues, absolutely, they
21:20
were wonderful and again, I think it's the one to one
21:24
relationship. When they saw me and they saw me
21:27
that I was still interested in their work and how their family
21:31
was, they instantly relaxed. When I told them you can't say
21:35
anything that's going to annoy me one way or the other.
21:39
Mention that you can ask me about the case or you cannot
21:43
think. Everyone heaved a sigh of
21:45
relief. Institutions are tough.
21:48
To be quite honest, Stanford didn't want me teaching for a
21:52
couple years, and that was very tough for Barbara and myself,
21:57
because teaching is what gives us meaning.
22:00
And I had to argue and insist that this is what I do and to
22:07
kind of throw a gauntlet down. I think they're now happy they
22:11
did it. But it was a trauma for us
22:17
because you always expect that you'll be able to do something
22:22
that you enjoy, and people seem to enjoy having you, and now
22:27
things are different. Well, the reason I bring that up
22:30
is it happens a lot, you know, with people that are on the
22:33
peripheral that, you know, because of business or the
22:37
perception or this or that. And they, and there's it also
22:42
scares everybody around, you know, that the perception is
22:48
just scary. The the fear goes to, you know,
22:51
a 10 and they don't know what to do either.
22:55
It's that's. Right.
22:57
You're exactly right. And in some sense, your main job
23:02
has to be to make other people relax.
23:05
That's what I learned. Because if not, their fear will
23:09
take them the places that they they don't want to go, you don't
23:12
want them to go. And that aren't good for
23:14
anybody. And you have that at work with
23:17
people thinking, can this person enter the building?
23:21
Is there going to be too much publicity?
23:23
What will people say? And you really have to, if you
23:27
can try to confront that. Of course, sometimes you can't
23:31
or they won't listen to you. And that's part of the tidal
23:35
wave. I mentioned Stanford being
23:39
reluctant as an institution and not maybe what I would have
23:43
loved, but other institutions are like that.
23:46
Our all of our banks debanked us.
23:50
And that's a small thing, but you actually need a bank because
23:54
you've got credit cards and you don't have that much money
23:56
anymore. And what are you going to do
23:59
without a bank? And you never thought that banks
24:04
can simply say no, we know who you are and we don't want you as
24:08
one of our anonymous clients. That's one of those things, Joe,
24:13
that I don't think people know enough about.
24:15
Is this de banking because you know, part of the white collar
24:19
support group. That's one of Drew Chapin's real
24:22
initiatives is, is this de banking because people need,
24:28
like you said, people need a bank.
24:30
And, and, and you think one of the things that happens,
24:34
unfortunately is a lot of people when they go through a nightmare
24:40
experience, they think with the the very worst thing is, OK,
24:43
I've I've lost everything. OK, I'm going to prison.
24:46
This is absolutely rock bottom. And then when you get out, it's
24:51
the least thing that you've thought about because you think
24:54
that, well, this is me getting out.
24:57
It's almost like you think you've gotten a certificate to
24:59
go start your life again. And what happens is you run into
25:03
this wall that OK, there we can't, we can't rent to you
25:07
because of your, your record. We can't give you a job because
25:12
of your and we can't let you bank here because of your
25:16
record. And there's these things that
25:19
happen and you they're unexpected because you don't
25:23
think of them that way until you're confronted with them
25:25
through the re entry processes. There's a lot of things that
25:28
need to happen through re entry, but de banking is a it's a real
25:33
thing and it's it's the most shocking, you know that you just
25:37
get a letter in the mail and say we just can't accept your money
25:39
anymore. We're sorry, you never.
25:42
Counted on that and it's it can be kind of a straw that breaks a
25:47
camel's back. You're trying to keep it
25:49
together and you have so much more important things.
25:52
But like if you don't have a bank account, what happens to
25:56
your electricity? Like you've never thought about
25:59
that if you've left. I mean, a lot of people have to,
26:02
but if you've been a kind of a thrifty middle class person,
26:06
you're our age, near retirement, it's been a long time since
26:10
you've worried about having your electricity cut off, but now you
26:15
have no, no bank. Right.
26:18
Yeah. And there are some banks that
26:21
that there's a couple of banks that are that need to be better
26:24
known that will take somebody that that is in a crisis.
26:28
But it's not easy and well known.
26:32
And and so you have to go search that out because it's.
26:36
Now that you say Brent, I want to interrupt you and hold up a
26:40
sign cheering on those banks because we could have so used
26:45
that. Because when my bank kicked me
26:49
out, kicked us out, we each tried to get separate bank
26:53
accounts, figuring now the name Bankman Freed won't be there.
26:56
And I got one, and then that bank kicked me out.
27:01
It's there's no way to feel good about it.
27:03
Yeah. Yeah.
27:05
It's very dejected. It's not your biggest problem,
27:07
but it is the kind of thing it is.
27:09
Quick change and. Well, it feels like social
27:12
shame, you know? It's strangely enough, you know,
27:16
banking in your community and going and doing your deposits
27:20
and doing whatever. Being told that you're not
27:23
welcome here is, is just a bad overall feeling and and it's not
27:30
something that you're expecting, but it's something you have to
27:32
deal with. So let's talk about the when,
27:36
when things got into the, you know, for for a big case, things
27:42
move fairly fast in, in this case and in in Sam's case, you
27:50
know, he was one of the very few people that go to trial in a
27:53
federal case. Did you?
27:59
Is that a place where you helped Joe being able to kind of figure
28:04
out who had the the best vibe with you and your family to get
28:10
the right attorneys in there? Because that's one of the
28:12
toughest things for families to do.
28:15
Oh, it's so tough and we are clueless like everyone else.
28:20
That is, we knew a million attorneys.
28:23
We are them. But you need a the right kind of
28:27
criminal attorney for you and that's like saying you need the
28:32
right kind of, I don't know, surgeon for you and you've never
28:37
done that right. So no, we were of no, we had to
28:43
the extent we had intuition say we're really of no help, I would
28:48
say. When the case finally came to
28:50
trial was what was the families feeling walking in that
28:57
courtroom because I have AI have a opinion on that.
29:01
I just interviewed an attorney, defense attorney, Colonel,
29:03
defense attorney about this. And one of the problems that I
29:07
see with somebody that walks into a courtroom, there's these
29:10
talking indictments and these talking indictments, they tell a
29:14
whole story that makes this person into a monster before you
29:19
ever get to pick the jury. And so, you know, if it was done
29:23
on the other side, that would be called witness tampering.
29:25
But when it's done on the federal side, that's just kind
29:28
of the way the the process works.
29:31
Did you feel like when you walked into that courtroom as a
29:34
family that there was a chance? Yes, I did.
29:43
But I want to pick up on something you said that until
29:50
you see the power of our government working against you,
29:57
you have no idea how powerful it is.
29:59
It's like however powerful you might think you are, you are
30:05
nothing compared to that and just have no power.
30:09
And if there are press conferences, if the government
30:14
has prohibited you, as you say, from talking to people, but
30:18
they're still talking to people, you can't safely talk to
30:23
reporters often, but of course they can talk to reporters.
30:29
It's a, it's a, an amazingly horrible feeling of, of just
30:35
helplessness and, and then walking in a courtroom adds the
30:42
special element that this is set for a trial of the person you
30:48
love the most. And the worst things on earth
30:51
are going to be said about your child by your government and by
30:57
very smart and motivated and ambitious people.
31:01
And you're going to have to sit there and listen to the worst
31:07
things you've ever heard. And I, I think that's probably
31:11
how many. I can't imagine I'm alone to
31:13
that. So no, every sentence is
31:16
actually the worst sentence that's ever you've ever listened
31:19
to. And they're just starting.
31:22
They're going to go on for an hour and the next sentence is
31:25
going to be just as bad. How long did the trial last?
31:30
Over a month. So every day you had.
31:34
Every day. And in our case, reporters are
31:37
looking at you. So you can't, you have to be, I
31:42
suppose, impassive, and you also haven't been able to see your
31:50
child. Sam was in prison.
31:52
He is delivered to the prison at about 5:00, in the courtroom at
31:56
about 5:00 AM and kept in a holding cell.
31:59
He's marched out in handcuffs right before the trial starts.
32:05
So maybe you can catch your child's eye and that's all.
32:10
That's all you're going to see of your child sometimes and hear
32:14
the kindness brunt that you mentioned.
32:16
I'm thinking of the tennis coach here.
32:19
Sometimes one of the federal marshals will let you quote, UN
32:24
quote, get away with coming up to your son and saying how you
32:29
doing or we love you. I'm not even sure that's
32:33
allowed. But sometimes that's the length
32:36
of humanity that as a parent, you'll get during that month,
32:40
being allowed to say that and listen to his reply, at which
32:45
point you'll be scurrying away because you've known that you've
32:50
already gotten as much as you can possibly get that day.
32:56
Can't imagine. And for that to go on for a
32:58
month, how did you guys survive in that month?
33:01
What where were you just should go back to the hotel room every
33:04
day. I mean, what in the world does
33:05
somebody do in that time period? Well, first thing I'll I'll note
33:10
is that when you enter and leave, you're absolutely
33:15
surrounded, in our case by reporters.
33:18
I don't know how many in my mind there are thousands, but suppose
33:22
there are 30 or 40 or 60. But you can't walk through 60
33:26
people with cameras. So to start off with, just
33:30
getting somewhere away from the courtroom is a big deal.
33:35
In time, I took the position of talking to the reporters just to
33:41
say, I know you need a picture. How about we just pose for your
33:46
pictures and then you let us leave and that speed things up.
33:52
It's still meant that after this horrible day, we posed for a
33:57
picture, but if we didn't, we couldn't get to the subway.
34:00
So after the trial, we went to the subway and then we, you
34:03
know, we went to where we were staying during this.
34:06
Once we got on the subway car, we were kind of just people on a
34:12
subway and that was kind of the high point of the day.
34:18
It's hard to imagine, but I I can.
34:21
I didn't go through a trial, but I do have when you're bringing
34:25
up that picture, it really gives me some PTSD because when as a
34:30
family we walked out of that courtroom after I was sentenced
34:34
and there were other there were six people that were Co
34:37
defendants, five other people, but my family, because we were
34:42
together and it made a good picture.
34:45
That was the picture that was used all over anywhere in the
34:49
very front page on the above the fold.
34:53
And I was so devastated that that happened.
34:57
You know, there's so many degrees of.
34:59
So many degrees we got used. I'll be honest, I got used to
35:03
that. That is, I've lost all privacy.
35:07
Everybody's going to look to see if we're crying, if I'm holding
35:11
Barbara's hand, if if maybe we'll say something.
35:15
If small things happen, one of us has a stomach ache and is 20
35:22
minutes late to what that will be reported.
35:26
I actually got used to that. It's it's amazing what you can
35:34
adapt to. I think that's a good point,
35:36
Joe. It's amazing what you can adapt
35:39
to. So you get to the end of that
35:41
month, you know, it, it's, it's so hard to think that you're
35:47
sitting there as a, a mom and a dad and the jury comes back in
35:53
and you're just sitting there and the whole world is in their
35:57
hands. It's, you know, you see it in
36:01
movies, but were you, is it a blur or do you remember that
36:06
vividly? Well, I've been trying to
36:10
repress every memory of the courtroom, to be quite honest,
36:15
Brent, because it was so hard. You know, when you enter a
36:20
courtroom, what you realize if you're not an attorney and what
36:23
you already know as an attorney is there's a judge and jury and
36:28
the judge really runs a place. So if the judge, you can't
36:33
depend on the jury, if the judge, the judge is judging you.
36:37
And so every day you know or have a sense of what is a judge
36:44
decided. And so it's a terrible feeling,
36:51
I'll just say that. Yeah, it has to be when when the
36:57
sentencing came down and the son of yours has been, you know, the
37:06
pride of of accomplishments in that and they come down with a
37:10
25 year sentence. How do you get your your mind
37:16
around that? Well, by the time the sentencing
37:22
came down, you know, the government asked for, I don't
37:25
know, 60 years or something. And there's a lot of feelings
37:34
that are still in me that I'm resisting because it's almost an
37:39
invitation to talk about the injustice of the, of course, I
37:43
believe. But I want this to be more, I
37:48
think what you're thinking, how do you deal with it?
37:51
It's not about the right or wrong.
37:57
We were prepared for the worst. It was like watching an
38:00
execution like it. You know that your son wasn't
38:04
going to be executed and it was awful.
38:07
But. It takes me back to that scene
38:11
in Braveheart where the, you know, William Wallace is up
38:13
there and they're all, the whole town square has come hundreds of
38:17
thousands to see this execution. And, and it's, it's, it's
38:22
primitive, but it's done for a purpose to scare people.
38:28
And it does a really good job of that.
38:31
Yeah, that's right. It's, it's one and and it's
38:35
accompanied, I should say, not just by the sentence, but now a
38:42
judge has an opportunity to again say how awful your son is.
38:48
So you're not before the sentence, you're forced to
38:53
listen to something that of course you're going to not agree
38:58
with. And unlike the prosecutor, the
39:03
judge is completely unconstrained.
39:06
There's no standards for what a judge can say, and you just have
39:11
to sit there and listen to it before the execution.
39:18
So when everything happened, you're on the other side of the
39:23
world. Sam is in the East Coast, here
39:29
in the West Coast. How did what were you guys
39:34
thinking about going forward? Like how are we could have lived
39:37
this out? The good or bad news of that is
39:43
I was on the same side of the world because I'd taken a leave
39:47
from Stanford for a year to do charity with Sam.
39:51
He was often not in the Bahamas, but when I did the charity, most
39:56
of it was centered there. That's where the company was
39:59
headquartered. So I was there, Barbara was not,
40:03
and I called her and I said I think you have to fly here
40:07
immediately. And she did.
40:11
So where, where are things now? Joe, you I know that there's
40:16
been, you know, there's an appeal coming up.
40:19
I'm, I'm thinking that somehow, some way that there would be a
40:26
form of trying to work on a pardon, try to work on our
40:29
computation, all that stuff that is, is that something you're
40:33
living with just daily? It is your life changes just
40:39
completely. And we think of our old life
40:43
that ended when that wave hit and we look the same except a
40:48
little older, but we're just different people.
40:51
So yes, every day your life is now defined in part, thank God
40:58
for me by my teaching and my other activities like working
41:03
with clients, as we call them in psychology patients.
41:07
But every day it's defined as figuring out the next time you
41:14
can visit your son, making sure you've complied with all the
41:19
visiting rules, making sure you've budgeted for it.
41:23
If there's an appeal coming up, of course you've you're
41:27
obviously going to reserve that day.
41:29
You've spent forever on the documents for the appeal.
41:34
There are amicus briefs by experts.
41:39
And here, being a lawyer, you spent enormous energy on that.
41:44
Everything you can imagine a loving parent would do, you're
41:49
doing. So there's no day that is like
41:52
your old life that is gone. And I imagine it might be like
41:57
if tragedy strikes your child with illness.
42:02
Every day is, I'm sure, different.
42:05
You're going to the hospital talking to.
42:07
The hospital worrying about paying the bills, it's like
42:11
that. There's no day.
42:11
I don't talk to to lawyers. Let's talk a little bit about
42:15
the visiting thing, because you and I talked about that going in
42:18
before we hit the, the, the record button.
42:22
You know, my, I told you my family had three different
42:25
scenarios where they were turned.
42:26
Can can you talk a little bit about how that's been for you
42:29
and your family going and visiting Sam?
42:31
Yeah, it's it's a really good topic because whatever the
42:37
American people think about justice, I think they wouldn't
42:42
approve of the way visiting works at prisons because when
42:49
you when you go to a prison, you'll try to get there early.
42:53
Visiting is very circumscribed so that some prisons, if it's
42:59
not a legal visit, I'm going to ignore that for now.
43:02
If it's a regular family member visit, it's a half a day a week,
43:08
but that half a day and it's on a prescribed time.
43:13
If something happens, you just don't get it.
43:15
And often you'll go there and nobody will be there and
43:20
everybody waits outside. And it could be in Brooklyn in
43:24
the middle in January and maybe it's snowing or raining.
43:27
They don't open the doors. So maybe you're out there an
43:31
hour and you're you're called because you're just standing
43:35
around. Maybe they say you should go
43:37
somewhere else. And sometimes there is no
43:41
visits. What happens more the time if
43:45
you're unlucky is there's visits for some, but there's something
43:49
wrong with your paperwork and it could be completely their fault.
43:54
It might not be. It's a small thing.
43:57
There's no real question about are you trying to get away with
44:02
something by visiting a loved one at a federal prison?
44:06
People just don't really do that.
44:08
I mean what would be the? Advantage.
44:11
Exactly what would be the advantage?
44:12
Yeah. But but then you're turned away
44:15
for that. The the dress codes are, are
44:20
really hard to figure out and sometimes they're not complied
44:24
with. For example, it might say that
44:28
in one prison we dealt with that you can wear a a suit as long as
44:34
the business suit or a sweater if it's a cardigan.
44:37
But if you come in with a sweater suit, you'll be told
44:40
that's not acceptable. And of course, you could try to
44:45
argue, but this is a guard. You're not going to, even if you
44:49
could, what's the point? It'll take hours.
44:53
So. But sometimes you have to leave
44:55
to change clothes. That's happened before.
45:01
So we've gotten to, you know, Los Angeles and which is 400
45:07
miles from where we are, and having been told, no, it's not
45:11
going to work today. And often if you stick around,
45:15
you'll find someone who can try to make it work.
45:19
But that's the norm. And you see that happening all
45:24
the time. And I want to make it clear it's
45:27
not because guards are evil. That's not really what's
45:30
happening. They just have their rules, and
45:33
they are understaffed, and that's just the way it is.
45:36
So they might be nice people, right?
45:40
This isn't a problem of a sadistic guard turning you away.
45:44
I mean, some are nicer than others, just like attorneys or
45:48
podcasters. Yeah, but but you're helpless
45:54
and you see other people leaving for they've come 200 miles and
46:00
they're not going to see their loved one this week.
46:03
And when you see your loved one, well, I'll just stop there.
46:08
It's it's OK. It's it's.
46:10
Not no, but I'm glad. I'm glad you went into that,
46:14
Joe, and and you, you, I think you made people at least
46:19
understand or feel that because you want to see that person.
46:24
I, you know, I was on the other side.
46:25
I was wanting to see my, my daughters.
46:27
I was wanting to see my wife Julie.
46:30
And when they get turned away like that, it's just, it's just
46:34
takes your, your guts and your heart out.
46:36
Imagine and and often, and I don't know if this happened to
46:40
you, Brent, but when we're turned away, it's not like Sam
46:43
knows what's happening. No, our child, your parents just
46:47
don't come. Exactly.
46:49
And you could think they're older.
46:51
Is there a tragedy with them? Are we on the you?
46:54
Whatever you think, your mind can take you there at some
46:57
point. I think you do learn, but it
47:00
it's not contemporaneously. No, no.
47:04
And I, I just think and, and it should be.
47:07
Here's the point. It should be that the, it's,
47:11
it's advocated and encouraged to keep the family ties and, and
47:15
the closeness and being plugged into your family.
47:19
And those shouldn't be hard hurdles to overcome.
47:25
They should be easier ways because there's so many people
47:29
that I saw and, and I was not in a maximum or medium.
47:34
I was in A at a camp level, but there's so many people that are
47:37
left on their own and they don't get any visits.
47:41
And there's a lot of different reasons for that.
47:43
But if you make it hard, harder for the people to come and
47:47
visit, it also creates another opportunity for people to say
47:51
it's just too much there. You can't.
47:52
Do it and you know what happens to us because we know that when
47:58
we visit, it's really a big deal.
48:01
I mean, because it it, you can't count on A2 hour visit, you have
48:06
to give up the day. And again, I want to make it
48:11
clear that at the institution Sam is at, the guards are
48:15
sometimes very nice and the people in charge are sometimes
48:19
very nice. It's not a problem of mean
48:23
people. It's just a how things work and
48:25
resources. But if people could, I'd love to
48:29
have a video camera Brent, and I'm sure it would be not
48:33
allowed. But.
48:34
Just take it to the waiting area outside and just talk to
48:41
families, right? I think if the American people,
48:44
because we're white collar and maybe we're less sympathetic,
48:48
but if people could see the loved ones that are waiting to
48:53
visit and hear their life story, I think we'd free up a little
48:58
money to make those visits more frequent and easier.
49:03
I I think that's an excellent point.
49:06
You know, Joe, I always ask people at the end of the show,
49:12
you know, you didn't go through going to prison, but you live
49:15
the nightmare through your son. What do you think's been your
49:19
biggest take away through all of this?
49:26
That's a really good question, and I know I looked at the
49:30
ceiling. That's sometimes what I do when
49:32
someone asks me a question that requires thought.
49:37
I think it's people versus institutions.
49:41
I think this hasn't at all hurt my faith in people.
49:48
In fact, I'm more pro people than ever before.
49:52
A lot of people under terrible circumstances have time to be
49:57
kind, from guards to other inmates to a lot of people, you
50:02
don't know institutions not so. And you you won't get a your
50:11
world vis A vis institutions is a much worse world.
50:15
And that's been sobering to me. So I regard people better and
50:20
institutions. Worse, I think that's a really
50:23
good take away. That's a great take away, Joe,
50:25
because I think that's what I think in the situations that
50:30
you've been in, people and and its institutions and its verses
50:36
and, and I like that take away a lot.
50:40
I really do. For those out there.
50:44
I was talking about gratitude and people I want to thank
50:47
Homestead Financial for. Let me use all the lights and
50:50
fancy equipment here. If anybody's got home mortgage
50:54
needs, Greg FTF is your guy. He knows all that stuff.
50:58
If you're looking for a book out there, I've got one.
50:59
Nightmare. Success, loyalty, betrayal, life
51:01
behind bars, adapting, finally breaking free.
51:04
If you want to know what I'm doing, go to brentcassidy.com.
51:07
I spell it wrong. I spell it with ATY, not a DY,
51:11
as I used to say to my people when I was writing my emails
51:13
back and forth from Leavenworth. Stay strong.
51:16
I'll do the same. Joe Bankman, I wish you the best
51:19
of luck on everything. And, and I think you've really
51:22
given everyone a real feel of what it's like to experience
51:28
what you've experienced because there's a lot of the people out
51:30
there that have experienced that.
51:32
And it's good to know, see and hear someone be able to
51:37
verbalize it and and talk about it.
51:40
Well, thank you, Brett. Nightmare success in and out.