Latest / Infidels / Jews of Privilege: The Elites Who Sold Out Their Own People | Benjamin Kerstein
Transcript
- Richard Landes: welcome Benjamin Kirsten to Infidel Awareness Month, in which we have discussions on relevant problems that infidels need to be aware of. And in this case, yesterday we discussed at some length the issue of demopaths. demopaths are defined beautifully by Frank Herbert as the people who say, When I am weak, I will demand freedom from you because it is according to your principles. And when I am strong, I will take weed freedom away from you because it is according to my principles. And we have, particularly amongst the supremacist Muslims who are doing cognitive war, dawah in the West, we their basic strategy is demopathic to demand that people give them full rights and privacy and etc. Even as there are entryism moving towards being able to take away those rights once they have the authority. And the issue we want to discuss today is the dupes of these demopaths. That is the people who take their arguments seriously, believe they're sincere, repeat them, in many cases reformulate them in a language that's particularly shall we say attractive to Western progressives and you know what i what is what's the level of awareness that they have that what they're doing is actually promoting their enemies agenda. So welcome Benjamin. Benjamin I y you have a long career, we've known each other for over twenty years. I love the way you write. and you are among the fearless writers. Benjamin: Thank you. Richard Landes: after October seventh you came out with a number of books, I believe, at least Benjamin: Just one so far. There's a second one coming out in October, end of October. Richard Landes: I see great. I jumped the gun. All right. But the first one is about Jews defending themselves. Can you briefly talk about Benjamin: Yeah, well I mean it's sort of self explanatory. It's called Self Defense, a Jewish manifesto. And it says that the hour is late. The Jews are facing an existential threat in the diaspora. Obviously Israel always faces an existential threat, but they've got the means to deal with it. but in the diaspora and especially I was writing for American Jews because so many of them to my mind are still asleep. that they've got to rise up and organize for self-defense if they want to save their community. And that that self-defense has to be both what I term, you know, obviously physical, but also spiritual, that they need to be able to defend their souls and their spirits against the people who want to destroy them. and it's essentially an exploration of that and a call for action, and especially for a nationwide organization that will undertake that kind of self-defense. without falling into the kind of kahonist madness that we've seen in the past, which I find self-destructive. so it's a way it tries to recommend practical ways to engage in constructive self defense, let's put it that way. And also Richard Landes: Right. So could we call it could we call it civic? In other words it Benjamin: It's civic but it's also spiritual. It's also Richard Landes: Right, definitely. But civic in the sense of as opposed to the Cahanist reference you made, which would be towards vigilante violence sort of preemptive preemptive Benjamin: Right. Yes. Yeah. Richard Landes: booths, right. Benjamin: Well my motto is, you know, by whatever legal and moral means necessary. And that's the line because, you Richard Landes: All right. So let's take up right. Benjamin: know, their their favorite our enemy's favorite line by any means necessary is obviously pure nihilism. You know, I mean, what if nuclear war is necessary? Yeah, absolutely. What if genocide is necessary? Richard Landes: Yeah. Yeah. And and they have proved it. Right. And they they have proved family Benjamin: Well They're fine Richard Landes: that Benjamin: with it. So I by ever by whatever legal and moral means necessary. And I'm when I say moral, I also mean Jewish morality. Richard Landes: So let me pick up on the moral issue because one of the things that we're discussing today, and there there's a wide range of dupes of these malevolent emopaths, but there are in fact quite a few who are Jewish and who present themselves as moral voices. Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: examples that you have wrestled with directly, one Chomsky in before the year 2000 and Peter Beinert after the year 2000. And they represent Chomsky is not making a Jewish value statement, even though he was Jewish and his his father was deeply embedded in Jewish culture. but but Beiner does make a religious Jewish values argument, which Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: is essentially an argument that affirms the quite aggressive claims of what we could call Palestinianism, but is in fact just the particular form that successful that jihadi ideology takes in the West, that that affirms its program. So how how does that how how do you deal with that in terms of moral discourse? Benjamin: Well, I mean, my book is called Jews of Privilege, Elites Antizionists and Our Secret Civil War. It's coming out at the end of October. and the my argument actually is that I I I grew up as a leftist, a very strong one. And I had a conversion when I was in my early twenties because of antisemitism And I I kind of bring my old Marxist training to bear on the subject here. And my Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Benjamin: view actually is that the moral case that Beinart and others make, I don't know if this is true of of Chomsky necessarily. But certainly that Beinart and his ilk, like Ben Rhodes and Richard Falk and like a lot of these other Ezra Klein today is kind of moving into this space that a lot of these Jews make. This is actually a class-based argument. And that the Jewish first of all, the the Jewish community is in denial of the fact it has a class system. It obviously does, all communities do. And Beinart and his ilk represent the Jewish upper class, the Jewish elite. And the Jewish elite in the United States goes back a very long way to the German Jewish immigrants of the 18 40s and 50s and before the vast immigration of Eastern European Jews. And yes, so Richard Landes: Let me strap us. Benjamin: they and that that elite has always emphasized the universalization of Judaism, the idea that the Jews are not a nation, they're a religion. They've always very much been hostile to Zionism. they've always been very hostile to Eastern European Jews or of Eastern European descent. today they have nothing but contempt for Mizrahi Jews in Israel. and that these and they and by the way, for the most part, they simply ignore Mizrahi Jews, and certainly Ethiopian Jews don't exist to them. and basically, in order to retain whatever class domination they have. They have to demonize the non-privileged Jews who are overwhelmingly of that Eastern European descent, overwhelmingly support Zionism, overwhelmingly support Israel, and who do not want this kind of amorphous, stateless, exile universalism that people like Beinart, etc., promote. And Beinart strikes me as in in many ways, if we're gonna talk about him. Specifically as a walking cliche. Everything he says is right out of the Jews of Privileges playbook, in terms of morality and spirituality. It's a Judaism that has been completely denuded of any particularist aspect. It's Richard Landes: Right. Benjamin: bizarrely enough, it's a highly Christianized Judaism. You know, it it rips out Richard Landes: Yeah, that's interesting. Benjamin: everything specific. It rips out everything That defines the Jews as a specific people with specific interests, specific beliefs, specific, you know, rituals, even, you know. Richard Landes: Right. Benjamin: and and demands that in the name of that universalism, the Jews essentially efface themselves. Now, the manifestation of that morality, and I I I'm sorry if I'm going on too long here, but But basically it's a profound, there is in it a profound and deep belief in the kindness of Gentiles. And the belief that the world Richard Landes: We don't need a Benjamin: Exactly, you don't need a state. there's nothing much to worry about in regard to antisemitism. Exactly. And they Richard Landes: I don't need a state. Why do you need a state? Benjamin: don't need a state. They're perfectly privileged. They will need Richard Landes: Right. Benjamin: a state when when their allies turn against them in the end, which they will do and they have done already to Binar. couple of cases, although he's still hanging in there with them. Richard Landes: Yeah. Benjamin: but they think they're exempt from the Jewish fate, from Jewish destiny. And as a result, those people like you and me are incomprehensible to them and in fact offensive. And you know, Richard Landes: Offensive, offensive. Benjamin: we are heretics, infidels, if you like, in their eyes. Richard Landes: Right. Exactly. so we're Jewish infidels in the eyes of Jewish Jewish diasporist Benjamin: Yes. Unquestionably. Unquestionably. This is a deeply Richard Landes: Jews. Benjamin: we have to understand this is not nihilism, conscious nihilism. This is a deeply moralistic and deeply religious point of view on the part of these people. Richard Landes: Right, right, right, right, right. That power corrupts and therefore if we don't have power we have a better chance not to be corrupt. Benjamin: It's a major part of it, yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah. Okay, so I heard a really good expression in one of my conversations. I I wish I remember who introduced me to it, but there are the anywhere people and the somewhere people. And the somewhere people are rooted in their communities, and the anywhere people can be anywhere in Airbnb with their computer, at a conference. They don't have any really rooted commitments. And it sounds Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: to me like, you know, Binarts and anywhere person and the other Jews that you're describing are somewhere people and they have homes to protect and they have families to protect. Benjamin: Well, I mean the paradigmatic example of that is the German Jewish ideology in Central Europe itself, where they actually had a slogan which was Berlin is the new Jerusalem. Richard Landes: Right, right. And that's why the reform movement actually calls their places of worship the temple, because it is for them the temple. Right. Benjamin: That's simple, which nobody, nobody in any other denomination would would do under any circumstances. I mean, it would be almost blasphemous, you know. but Richard Landes: Sort of yeah. Benjamin: Bynar also, though, does it's interesting, the Jews of privilege do want to belong in a strange way. There is still that instinct in them. And what they have found is a nation of their own in the form today of the Palestinians. That's their nation. That's their their national, they are all, if you break it down. If you get rid of all everything else, they are hard line Palestinian nationalists. Very hard line Palestinian nationalists. I mean, they want to eliminate Israel. Bien art very is very straightforward about the fact that he wants Israel dismantled and and an Arab supremacist state placed in its he doesn't call it Arab supremacist, but Richard Landes: No, no. Ye yeah, no. He no, he would he I I mean what strikes me when I read him and i it's almost breathtaking the degree to which it pervades his work, is that he is utterly in denial about the let's be blunt, the genocidal nature of the Palestinianist movement. So he's Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Richard Landes: he's constantly pretending that if we have a binational state democracy and so on, that the Palestinians in it, once they've been welcomed into this state where they're equal citizens, will then play by the rules of democracy and not take it over. So he's Benjamin: Yeah, and that's he must know on some level that's not true, especially after Richard Landes: Right. Benjamin: October seventh. I mean there's no way after October seventh there's no way you can sustain that argument and remain a sane man. Richard Landes: Yeah, exactly. I mean, as my daughter said to me after October seventh, you were right and we hated that you were right. Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. And that may be the origin of his denial, is that he knows he's wrong. And so Richard Landes: He hates it. Benjamin: he hates the people who are right, you know, in the end. Richard Landes: Mm. So they say we hate it that you were right and he says I hate you for being right. Benjamin: Yes. Yes. And Richard Landes: Ay all right, so Benjamin: I've I've often said, I mean, this is where I mean in my book I really bring the receipts on some of these people. And the things that the Jews of Privilege have been saying since October seventh are horrifying. And most people don't know about it. I mean I I I found denial Richard Landes: Yeah. Benjamin: of the atrocities, I found justifications of the atrocities, I found explaining away the atrocities, I found outright support. for the atrocities. And Beinart is not alone in that. And he has done nothing but blame Israel and American Jews, and American Jews, by the way, for October 7th itself. And you know, and I have said and this is where antisemitism comes into it, because they have adopted antisemitism for themselves, because there is no way that you can support the Palestinians after October 7th and not be a racist. It's impossible. You can't do it. And so they have adopted for themselves the hatred of the non-Jewish world, which has always been there among the Jews of privilege. There's always been an edge of wanting to appease antisemitism and a contempt for other Jews. But now Richard Landes: Sure, that's Benjamin: it has manifested itself in this new and very virulent Richard Landes: So I mean that's the thesis of the book Self Hatred, who wrote it? A Benjamin: No, I don't know it, sorry. Richard Landes: really important book, Sanders Gilman wrote a book Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: called Sell Jewish Self Hatred. And one of the things he says is that they they begin to see themselves through the eyes of people who hate them. And Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Richard Landes: you know, the Palestinianist movement i is a perfect illustration. We'll be talking later with Andrew Pesson about antizionism as a hate ideology, not as a you know, serious ideology that's got a foundation in legitimate arguments, but in fact just hate speech. Benjamin: And a genocidal ideology. Richard Landes: right, a genocidal ideology. So Benjamin: And we know this, we know this because they say so. I mean, they say so Richard Landes: Okay. Benjamin: at every possible opportunity. I mean, there's Richard Landes: Right. Benjamin: no, you know, I mean, in some ways that's the best thing about them is that if they were arguing through the language of squishy liberalism, we'd really be in trouble. But they can't keep Richard Landes: Well they w w yeah, I mean by and large, d publicly they use that language of in liberalism, that's the that's the demopathic ploy. They Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: admit it in private and we pick it up and make it available, but then people won't believe it. You know, people Benjamin: No, I I I actually don't agree. I mean, look at their slogans, From the River to the Sea and Globalize the Intifada and you know things like that. These are openly genocidal slogans. Again, I think that some like Beinart make the argument through squishy liberalism, but the activists in the street can't shut up. You know what I mean? Richard Landes: I see. I see. I see. Yeah, no, I I see what you mean. I mean, that's one of the great ironies of that slogan. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free because in the hands of Hamas there's no remote chance that it would be free. And yet you've got all these dupes who are ready to run with it and say, no, no, no, no, and this is Binart, you know, we'll have a decent liberal democracy in the Middle East where there has never been a liberal democracy except for Israel. Benjamin: Yeah. And I mean, I don't think actually that a lot of people in the Middle East particularly want democracy. I'm sure there are. But if you look at the most stable countries in the Arab world, they're tribal monarchies. This is how this is how the Muslim Richard Landes: Right. And and to be you know, and everything Benjamin: world has always organized itself. It's always been the one that worked best for them. I don't necessarily Richard Landes: Right. And it Benjamin: have a problem with that, so long as they don't want to kill Jews, you know. Richard Landes: Right. And as a number of great philosophers have pointed out, from Eric From Escape from Freedom to levy nas difficult liberties, you know, democracy is not easy. It's not like a formula, this is how you get rich, do it. the ability to live and sustain in a democracy calls for Quite some effort that not every culture is interested in. Benjamin: Yeah, and it's also, you know, cultures are very different and a lot of times democracy is not desirable for certain cultures. They organize themselves in different ways and there's better systems of government that are suited to that. So long as they're not tyrannical and murderous, you know, I d I don't necessarily think there's a problem with that. It's called diversity. Anyway, we're off subject. Richard Landes: Right. Multipoliticism. Benjamin: Yeah, exactly. Richard Landes: So give us some other examples other than Pinar Peter Binart that you deal with in your book. Benjamin: Well, one of the wor well, the worst is Norman Finkelstein, who is was a c is a cohort of Noam Chomsky. Mr. Chomsky is still with us, but he's unable to speak thanks to a stroke. so but he's so he's out of the picture. but Finkelstein is interesting because he's not actually was he was not born a Jew of privilege, but he has adopted their ideology in total. so we have a phenomenon there of kind of the parvenu. people who are trying to move up within the class system by adopting the ideology of the upper class. But he is by far the most racist, the most vicious, the most antisemitic of all these figures in terms of his rhetoric. He has openly engaged in the blood libel, he has denied the atrocities of October seventh. he has openly said that Palestinian terrorism is legal under international law and morally acceptable. he referred to an Israeli s Israeli soldiers as blood sucking dogs or something along those lines. you know, he's a full convert, no question about it. and Richard Landes: So he's a full convert. Wait a minute. You're saying you're saying he's a convert to this Jewish elite, but he's Benjamin: Yes. Richard Landes: really but he's really a convert to jihad. Benjamin: Both. Yeah. Yeah. He Richard Landes: Yeah. I mean Benjamin: takes it farthest of all of them. You know, of all the Jews of privilege, he takes it out the farthest. To the point of I mean, you know, he's he's he's running interference for people who would kill him in a minute, you know. I mean, which a lot of these people are, but he's doing it very openly. You know, there's a suicidal quality to a lot of this that people miss. but but he is by far the worst in terms of rhetoric. I don't think he's the most dangerous. The most dangerous is Bernie Sanders. There's no question of that, who is also a parvenue. but Richard Landes: Go ahead. Benjamin: Bernie Sanders again was not born into privilege, but he's adopted the ideology of the Jews of privilege wholesale. And he is a privileged man now. He's very he's very wealthy, for a socialist. you know, and but Sanders wields real political Richard Landes: Thanks shock. Benjamin: power. And Sanders has done everything within his power to empower anti Semitism. the the rise of anti Semitism in American life and in American politics. He has not just aided and abetted the movement, he has led it. He's not just trying to, he's not just supporting anti Semitic candidates for office. He's he's builting built the electoral s framework under which they can be elected. And I don't think there's any American Jew has done more damage to his community than Bernie Sanders. The man, to my mind, is is literally a monster. he's a fundamentally bad man. And I Richard Landes: Uncle. Benjamin: yes, exactly. Exactly. and I mean, you know, you can even put that aside. He's a ranked demagogue and hypocrite. I mean, even if you put aside the Jewish issue, he's he's a horrible man. You know, and it amazes me that that, you know, Trump gets attacked for being a populist demagogue, which he is. but the fact that Sanders doesn't get attacked as a populist demagogue, which he obviously is, is is a fascinating double standard. but at any rate, yeah, Sanders is the most dangerous. The most offensive and irritating is Ben Rhodes, because Ben Rhodes is such a Jew of privilege. he waltzed up through the Ivy League and you know, the the the foreign the government elite and made himself Barack Obama's top foreign policy man. And you should know that he has almost no training in this. He is actually a failed novelist. and what I say in my book is that you know, hiring a failed novelist as your top foreign policy guy, it's like giving a child a machine gun. He can't pick it up and he wouldn't like it if he did. you know, it's but but Rhodes is an apologist for antisemitism. he promotes Bayern art with everything he's got, he demonizes the American Jewish community as racist. he has accused Israel on multiple occasions of genocide, which is a blood libel that incites violence against Jews. he has claimed, for example, that Israel has killed well over a hundred thousand Palestinians in Gaza, which even Hamas has not dared to claim. he he's he is a contemptible man in the sense of that he clearly thinks that he's earned his privilege, which he hasn't. he got it because of his privilege. No, yeah, he he never earned it. And he clearly has a very high opinion of himself, as the as do most of these people. And he has dedicated today his life's work to severing the Democratic Party's relationship with Israel, and he is now doing everything in his power to to turn the Richard Landes: Eating. Yeah. Benjamin: Democrats into an anti Israel party, and he has for the most part succeeded. And I think in that sense he is not the most dangerous, but in some ways the most off putting. Richard Landes: Right. Let me Benjamin: The most unpleasant. You know what I mean? Richard Landes: let me just suggest one correction to your description. Benjamin: Mm. Richard Landes: I think he actually earned his sh his place in the elite. Anybody who can be a field novelist and convince the president to put him in charge of foreign policy and run foreign policy, you know, that's that's quite an accomplishment. Benjamin: Well, that's very that's very much the phenomenon of the parvanu. You know, you hustle your way to Richard Landes: Yeah, exactly. You learn the language you learn the language and you rise to the top. Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, th it may be that there is something strangely a admirable in that, although it strikes me as that, you know, George Orwell once said that the Americ Americans think that anything that succeeds must also be good. which is obviously not true. Richard Landes: Yes, that's true. Benjamin: And it's certainly not true in this case either. So Richard Landes: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay, so now let's move to the issue of the degree to which they're aware of this. Because you know, one of the points of Infidel Awareness Month is to make people who don't think of themselves as infidels, which is a pretty nasty slur. I mean, I think it's considerably worse than the N-word. The N-word doesn't mean that when you call somebody that. You actually have a right to kill them even if you don't exercise that right. whereas infidel really does mean that. but once you understand that that other people, Muslim supremacists, see you as an infidel, and that there are essentially three options: either you die resisting, you convert to Islam, or, and this is the one that's most interesting in a sense. You become a thimi, you become a a subject, you accept the yoke of the Muslim, you do not criticize them, indeed you take their side in their fights. And once you understand what a thimi is, all of a sudden this sort of edgy cosmopolitan look how cool I am, look how radical I am discourse as it appears to us actually registers on the supremacist Muslims radar as perfectly obedient demi infidel. Benjamin: Yeah, and I think all pretty much all of the people I deal with in my book have chosen that option. They've surrendered already, preemptively, you know. But Richard Landes: Right. Preemptive dimitude. Right. Benjamin: it's interesting to me that from what I've read, not just Muslim supremacists, but Arabs in general or Muslims in general have utter contempt for the Jews who take their side because they say they have no honor, and honor is a big deal in Muslim society. Richard Landes: you know right. I had in two thousand and three when there were all those big demonstrations against Bush and the war in Iraq and so on. I was in Paris at the time and I was speaking with a friend who had just come back from Morocco and he says, the Moroccans have contempt for the French. I I said, Why? Yeah, because the the French were defending Saddam Hussein against Bush and they said Because he sides with his enemies and he turns on his friends on their friends. They're weak. Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I think the bargain that the Jews of Privilege have made is ultimately a tragic one. Because there is no way that you can respect a supplicant. There is no way that you can respect someone who surrenders to you abjectly. And Richard Landes: Interesting. Benjamin: you know, I think that's where people like Bernie Sanders, the thing that they just don't get is they can be jettisoned at any moment. They can be purged at any moment. And I mean, you can look at what with Peter Beinart when he went to Tel Aviv University and spoke recently, and he was subjected to a torrent of abuse, some of it of a racist variety, on social media and immediately issued a a grovling tweet saying that I'm sorry I did it and it was horrible, and I made this terrible mistake, and I'm sorry, and all the rest of it. I can't believe that any of the people who were attacking him had any respect for him. You know, and that is the terrible irony, is that these people will be killed too, if it comes down to it. In fact they'll be the first up against the wall. So there is again that suicidality to it that's very interesting, you know. Richard Landes: Right. Right. And and you know, so for example, they will completely ignore the experience of the communists in Iran who allied with Khomeini in nineteen seventy nine and had been disappeared by nineteen eighty two. So Benjamin: Well, I I think in a lot of ways they probably don't even know it happened and if they did they wouldn't care, you know. Well, it's not just that. They're Richard Landes: That's not us. That it can't happen us. Benjamin: they're far more interested in attacking other Jews than in thinking about what might happen to them. Richard Landes: So this comes back to something that came up on we started the month on September 8th. why because September 8th was the end of the Durban Conference. And that was the marriage of the the Red Green Alliance, the what I call the mar Yeah Benjamin: Progressive left and the radical is the Richard Landes: the the marriage of of pre modern sadism and postmodern masochism. So Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a good way of putting it. Richard Landes: yeah. So so What gets me about this is that you don't have there's no corrective. There's no there's no ability to do do we have any examples of people who have sort of taken this path and pulled out, or is it like a terminal condition? Benjamin: Yes, I think we do. I'm trying to think of an example, but I can't right now. Well Well, we have people Richard Landes: We do we we actually have a day dedicated to Benjamin: who have but I wouldn't call them Jews of privilege. That's the thing. I mean, a guy like Benny Morris, for example, the Israeli historian, who is not Richard Landes: Yes. Interesting. Benjamin: a Jew of privilege, and I don't want to slander him in that way, and was not a self hating Jew. He was just a very much sincere leftist who very much opposed the occupation of Judean Samaria and so on. but after the second Intifada broke out, he changed his view and he said, Richard Landes: He woke up. Benjamin: I was wrong. The Palestinians never wanted peace. and and has since then advocated very strongly for Israel. So so and I am a convert. I mean I was an anti Zionist when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, and Richard Landes: So how did it happen? Benjamin: sorry? Richard Landes: How did you w how did you wake up? Benjamin: I realized that the people around me were perfectly fine with killing Jews. And that was my red line. Richard Landes: When was this? When was it? Benjamin: When the second Intifada broke out. Yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah. So I'm I'm calling those October first Jews. I'm w I'm one of them. Benjamin: Yeah, fair enough. No, but it was I I I had a red line, which is and and that was my only red line, but my red line was I'm not okay with killing Jews and I'm not okay with people who are okay with killing Jews. And that began the whole conversion to Zionism 'cause I realized that if there's one thing that Zionism does is that it resists the idea that it's okay to kill Jews. You know. Richard Landes: Whew. All right. Benjamin: And the Jews of privilege, by the way, this is the most interesting part. The Jews of privilege don't feel that way. They're perfectly fine with people who want to kill Jews, and some of them, like Finkelstein, are perfectly fine with killing Jews, period. You know. So that to me. 'Cause that means they'll be perfectly fine with people killing them. You know? so there's your suicidality, there's your self-destruction. Richard Landes: You're describ you're describing the condition of the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks who were ground up and who actually believed it was their duty to be condemned for things they didn't do and executed for the sake of the revolution. Benjamin: You're talking about like in the Great Purge, right? When yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Benjamin: When when all the when Stalin was framing all of the old Bolsheviks and they all was submitted to it and admitted and that they'd done these things that they've never done and went willingly to the execution. Richard Landes: And they thought that they were and they thought that they were helping the revolution. if we consider this dhimmi behavior, Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: are they doing it because they recognize that as Bin Laden said right after 9-11, we are the strong horse, and they just understand, and so they're preemptively behaving like Dimmi so that they will be spared. Or and and wrapping it up in moral virtue singling. Look how wonderful I am. I rise above my my my tribalism, I criticize my own people. I'm willing for the sake of world peace to give up any claims to sovereignty. you've got this combination of on the one hand obeying your fear, in other words cowardice, and on the other hand, this high moral posturing. And I mean How do we how do we parse that? Benjamin: I don't think that they know what they're doing in the sense that I don't think they're consciously trying to destroy their own people. Maybe Finkelstein. Richard Landes: Yeah, Benjamin: but I do think that What they don't know is that there is a very cynical, and maybe some of them do know this, but there's a very cynical aspect to it, which is that they're serving their own class interests. They cannot dominate the Jewish community without destroying the non-privileged Jews, or at least suppressing them completely and forcing them into submission. They cannot retain their sense of superiority without retaining their sense of superiority over all the other Jews in the world. is that conscious? To what extent is any class war conscious? To what extent are people conscious of the fact that they're preserving their class privilege? Very hard to say. I mean, you know, even if you read Marx, I'm not sure he really is clear on that point. You know what I mean? I mean, even Marx, I think, didn't know. You know, so it's very, very hard to say. I think they're very conscious of the fact that they are submitting to the demands of radical Islam and the progressive left. I think Beinart, for example, knew damn well what he was doing when he abjectly surrendered to the people who were attacking him. He knew that his career was at stake, that his standing was at stake, that his place in the movement was at stake, and that and he was perfectly willing to do whatever it took in terms of kind of committing sepaku in order to retain that position, which is very much a privilege. Point of view. I if you're privileged, you want to preserve that privilege at almost any cost. But does that mean that they know what they're doing in terms of what the ultimate outcome will be, that they will be destroyed too, that they will be killed too, that the people they're allies with absolutely hate them and have utter contempt for them? I don't think so. I really don't think so. I don't think that absolves them, but I don't think they do. Richard Landes: Right. I understand. I understand. Although I do think that you know this raises all kinds of interesting questions about cognitive dissonance and denial, and how deep does the denial go? And at what level do you know that you're denying stuff that you don't unpleasant stuff that you don't want to deal with and so on. But that that seems to me a worthwhile conversation because to the degree that we can wake people up, not necessarily Beinert, certainly not Finkelstein. But their audiences, the p the Jews who listen to them, to what extent can we address their cognitive dissonance and reach them by raising their level of awareness of just what kind of dangers they are courting with their and obviously we're not going to tell them they're cowards, but their cowardice, you know, w at what point can we can we trigger Some courage. Benjamin: It's hard for me to answer that because at the moment I'm very pessimistic about the American Jewish community. Richard Landes: But your blog is your your substack, what do you call it? Nordisphere. Benjamin: No delusions, no despair. no, I don't give in to despair. I don't think that it's impossible, but I think Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Benjamin: that waking up the American Jewish community as a whole is going to be very, very difficult. they are clo they are in the dream palace of the bourgeoisie. They are they are con they are sated on middle class plenty. They are convinced that their position in America is still safe, which it manifestly is not. They've been taught from day one that fighting for yourself is the worst thing you can possibly do. And I think that they are not Jews of privilege per se. They haven't adopted that ideology in total. So there is hope. But they they waking them up is going to be very hard. I think they know instinctively that something is wrong. They know that something is not right, that things are going in a bad direction, but they have no idea what to do. And their leadership, who are Jews of privilege, are completely useless. Richard Landes: Right. As Charles Jacobs ran staley. Right. Benjamin: Completely. Yes, it's it's appalling, it's disgraceful, it's a world historical failure. I mean, I often say that the same thing happened to American Jewish leadership as happened to Israel on October 7th. The difference is that the Israeli security establishment regrouped and mounted a ferocious counterattack. American Jewish leadership just broke. They were defeated completely, you know, and they need to be replaced. Anyway, putting that aside, waking them up. I I I don't know how. I don't know how. There is a way, I think. There must be. I mean, I think the main thing is first of all to point out hypoc the hypocrisy of the Jews of privilege. For them to say, you're committing genocide. It's like, well, October 7th was an attempted genocide, and you think October 7th was great. So don't come crying to me. You know, where they're whining about dead kids, dead babies. Well, they love dead babies so long as they're Jewish babies. So don't come crying to me. Richard Landes: Yeah. I don't see that on the wrong thing. Right. Benjamin: I can't Israel's Israel's a nationalist Israel's a nationalist ethno state. That's horrible. Well, Palestinian nationalism wants a a a nationalist ethno state with everything they've got and a non-democratic one and one where people will not be equal and have equal rights. Yeah. Richard Landes: Right. Exactly. A genocidal one. Right. Benjamin: Don't come crying to me, you know. that is a very important thing, and that can work with people who are looking on at that argument. Richard Landes: Gotcha. Benjamin: And the second thing is to say to American Jews, you don't have to live like this. You don't have to give these people a hearing. You do not need to listen to these people. You don't have to feel this existential guilt. You don't have to give in to this emotional blackmail. You don't have to grant these people the sainthood that they claim for themselves. You know, you can look these people in the eye and say, No, I don't accept that. I don't accept you. You're a liar and a hypocrite. I don't have to listen. Richard Landes: Let me suggest a slight change, not not that what you're saying isn't true, but I would Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: add to the list of critiques that they're cowards, that they will not confront the real enemies with anything. They adopt their language, they adopt their narrative, and they don't have the courage to stand up and say. I mean one of the things that's facing us, which is just mind boggling and we're gonna have a day dedicated to it, is the fact of this this I call it the great lethal and the great lethal projection, which is everything the Palestinians accuse the Israelis of is things that they do and they wanna do. And either they actually do them as on October seventh, or they would like to do them if they could, like You know, the claim that we're mass starving the population of Gaza. So the the idea that there's no pushback, and this isn't just Jews, this is our our news media, this is our intelligentsia, the inability to push back and to say to the Palestinianists or the Muslim supremacists. I'm not accepting what you're saying just because you claim it. This looks like a self description. There's no courage for that. And I think we should Benjamin: Well, that's what gives us the advantage though, because that allows us to use the argument from hypocrisy legitimately. But I I I agree. Richard Landes: Right. All right. So but the hypocrisy is based in cowardice. Benjamin: yeah, yeah. I don't like to call the majority of American Jews cowards. That's unpleasant. yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I agree with you a hundred percent. Richard Landes: No, I'm talking about the leaders. I'm not talking about Yeah. We're trying to we're trying to trigger courage in the American Jewish and in the infidel population. Benjamin: Yeah. But the American Jewish leadership also is a classic example of the end game of privilege, which is decadence. I mean, they just don't have the wherewithal anymore to even stand up for themselves, to even save themselves. So they cur certainly can't save the American Jewish community. Yeah. Richard Landes: Yes, absolutely. In fact, one of the things about preemptive dhimmi is they're they're the grandfather generation. You Benjamin: Yes. Richard Landes: can you can stay infidel, you can go to your synagogue, you can whatever you want, as long as you obey us. Benjamin: Yes. Yes. I mean that's a classic Richard Landes: But but Benjamin: thing. I mean, but again, in the Muslim world, to be a dhimmy, while you can't build any new synagogues, you have to wear clothing that identifies you, all this sort of stuff. Yeah, exactly. But I'm saying Richard Landes: That's that'll come later. That'll come later. Right now we're asking this Benjamin: that I'm saying that this is the bargain. You know, you Richard Landes: That's right. Benjamin: remain inferior, will allow you to lead some kind of Jewish life as long Richard Landes: Right? Benjamin: as you surrender and accept your inferiority. Richard Landes: And you do the job of dhimmi leaders, which is to make sure that your people follow the rules. Benjamin: Yeah, and that would could existed in the Christian world too. I mean that's the court shoe. You know. Richard Landes: Exactly. Exactly. Benjamin: So Richard Landes: Well, this is really exciting. Benjamin: Yeah. Richard Landes: any any any positive thoughts? Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean if if American if the majority of American Jews wake up, we can win. We can beat these people. There's enough of us. And the Jews Richard Landes: Right, and I would say I would extend that to the entire infidel population. I mean there are six plus billion infidels in the world and only two billion Muslims. And Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: the only way they're gonna win is if we don't even know about each other. Benjamin: Exactly, exactly. And I think that that's the main thing is is is to wake them up, you know? And I think it can be done. As I say, no delusions, no despair. We need to destroy the delusions and in order to Richard Landes: Yes. Benjamin: prevent the despair. And it's a Sisyphean task, but as Camus put it, we must imagine Sisyphus happy. So that's my optimism. Richard Landes: So again, the title of the title of your book that's coming out is Benjamin: It's Jews of Privilege, Elites Anti Zionists and Our Secret Civil War. Look out for it. It'll be on Amazon at the end of October. And I'll I'll certainly be try doing my best to put it out there. So Richard Landes: All right. And there will be a review in the Journal of Anti Zionist Studies. Very good. Thank Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you. That'd be great. Richard Landes: you very much, Benjamin. Thank you for waking up early and and joining us. And may you have great success in your endeavors. Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you, Richard.