Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #652 Phones: When Really is the Right Time?

Transcript

#652 Phones: When Really is the Right Time? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, everybody's circumstances is different, everybody's needs are different, and
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  Speaker 2: so I think what this study just highlights is, as
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  Speaker 2: long as we're taking into consideration the needs of our family,
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  Speaker 2: the needs of our children, that we kind of can't
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  Speaker 2: get it wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Quick question for you, Colie.
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  Speaker 4: How old were you when you got your first telephone?
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  Speaker 2: I would have been eighteen, that's right. And you brought
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  Speaker 2: it from I did.
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  Speaker 4: Do you remember Do you remember the kind of phone
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  Speaker 4: that it was? It was a noki ear No, no, no,
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  Speaker 4: it was an nec fight.
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  Speaker 1: Oh.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know if anyone remembers the nec fight. Oh,
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  Speaker 4: but you and I were engaged. I was living in
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  Speaker 4: mad Issa working on the radio. You were living in
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  Speaker 4: Brisbane at home with your parents. You are eighteen years
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  Speaker 4: of your phone on the wall, that's right.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I would call your mum would answer the phone and
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  Speaker 4: call out, Kylie, Justin's on the phone for you, and
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  Speaker 4: you would have to walk into the living room and
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  Speaker 4: pick up the phone and sit next to it.
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  Speaker 3: Because it was attached to the wall, Oh my goodness.
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  Speaker 2: And then many times, because we would spend long hours talking,
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  Speaker 2: we'd be kicked off.
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  Speaker 3: Because somebody else had to use the phone.
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  Speaker 2: They were expecting a phone call.
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  Speaker 4: Kids don't know what it's like, do they. They don't
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  Speaker 4: know what it's like for the phone to ring. And
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  Speaker 4: there it is on the wall, and someone actually picks
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  Speaker 4: it up in the kitchen and stands there and has
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  Speaker 4: a conversation standing next to the wall.
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  Speaker 3: And then do you remember.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know if this ever happened in your house,
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  Speaker 4: but I'd be on the phone talking to a girl
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  Speaker 4: that I had to crush on, and all of a
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  Speaker 4: sudden I'd hear my sisters giggling because they'd picked up
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  Speaker 4: one of the other phones in the other room, which
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  Speaker 4: obviously connected them to the call.
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  Speaker 3: Like kids these days, they got a.
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  Speaker 2: Phone, and so much fun they miss out on.
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  Speaker 4: Oh they the stories they could tell, the experiences they
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  Speaker 4: could have.
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  Speaker 3: So, yeah, you got your first mobile phone.
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  Speaker 4: I bought it for you while we were engaged, that
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  Speaker 4: I could talk to you without having to talk to
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  Speaker 4: you the nec fight though, And since then it's just
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  Speaker 4: all been downhill, hasn't it. The phones have become prolific
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  Speaker 4: and ubiquitous and everyone has them, and with Christmas just
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  Speaker 4: around the corner, now, I know that there's going to
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  Speaker 4: be a whole lot of parents who are having to
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  Speaker 4: deal with kids.
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  Speaker 3: Saying, Mom, can I have a phone?
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  Speaker 4: I'm going into grade seven next year, I'm in the
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  Speaker 4: grade day next year, or I've got to catch the
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  Speaker 4: bus next year? Can I please please have a phone?
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  Speaker 4: So we thought it would be a good idea to
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  Speaker 4: have a conversation today about the right age for kids
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  Speaker 4: to get their first phone, to get their first mobile,
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  Speaker 4: to get their first smartphone. Now, I've always said kids
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  Speaker 4: don't need smartphones. I need smart parents, and smart parents
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  Speaker 4: give their kids dumb phones.
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  Speaker 2: Can you buy a dumb phone anymore?
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  Speaker 4: Very very hard to do that these days, but you can,
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  Speaker 4: and I still stand by it. I still think to
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  Speaker 4: the extent that it's possible while your kids are young,
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  Speaker 4: if you think that they need a phone, the less accessibility,
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  Speaker 4: the less technology that's involved in that telephone, the better.
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  Speaker 2: The challenge you have, though, is that those dumb phones
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  Speaker 2: are actually designed and marketed to young children. So to
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  Speaker 2: try and get a teenager, oh yeah, yeah, dumb phone,
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  Speaker 2: you just you wouldn't. Yes, So I mean the space
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  Speaker 2: talk watches. We've had them for our kids and they've
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  Speaker 2: been great, but once they get to about grade six,
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  Speaker 2: they're kind of like, yeah, maybe grade seven, I really
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  Speaker 2: want a phone now, I'm not really cool with this anymore.
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  Speaker 4: And they just sort of stopped wearing them. Really really
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  Speaker 4: like that though, if you've got younger kids of Space
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  Speaker 4: Talk Watch, and there's a few other dumb phones that
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  Speaker 4: are on the market. But I guess the purpose of
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  Speaker 4: our conversation today is to consider when do your kids,
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  Speaker 4: when's your child ready for a smartphone? When's at time
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  Speaker 4: to go and buy the fully connected, got everything phone,
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  Speaker 4: and what do you need to think about when it
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  Speaker 4: comes to making that purchase.
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  Speaker 2: And I think every parent wants you to give them
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  Speaker 2: the exact number.
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  Speaker 4: Well, if you've caught our lightning rounds during the last
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  Speaker 4: school holidays, all of the great guests that we've had
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  Speaker 4: on the podcast, I get them to do a quick
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  Speaker 4: lightning round with me, and I've asked them all of
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  Speaker 4: these questions, and one of them is at what age should.
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  Speaker 3: A child get their first smartphone?
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  Speaker 4: And everyone hedges, everyone fudges around it every now and again,
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  Speaker 4: someone say twelve, they're just there. It is, there's a
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  Speaker 4: numb done. I found a website called is My Child
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  Speaker 4: Ready for a Smartphone? It's called wait until eighth There's
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  Speaker 4: an entire movement in the United States saying don't give
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  Speaker 4: your kids a smartphone until eighth grade. But I thought
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  Speaker 4: we should have a conversation about things to consider and
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  Speaker 4: then talk about what the science says. So when you
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  Speaker 4: think about the decision to let the kids have a smartphone,
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  Speaker 4: what considerations would apply before you would say Okay, now's
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  Speaker 4: the time.
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  Speaker 3: What are your top couple?
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  Speaker 2: So for me, safety is one hundred percent the top focus.
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  Speaker 2: If my children are catching a bus or walking home
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  Speaker 2: to and from school, or will be away from me
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  Speaker 2: from for long periods of time, I want to be
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  Speaker 2: able to contact them.
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  Speaker 4: Which I find really curious because when we were growing
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  Speaker 4: up wasn't an issue. You'd just see a mum and
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  Speaker 4: you disappear and be gone all day. I remember when
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  Speaker 4: I was a kid, as a teenager, i'd catch the
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  Speaker 4: bus to the beach. I lived at Erina, I'm the
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  Speaker 4: new Southwest Central Coast. I'd catch the bus either to
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  Speaker 4: Terry or Wambril or Forester's Beach or sometimes out to
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  Speaker 4: Avoca and I'd go surfing all day, and when I
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  Speaker 4: was done, i'd catch the bus home and I'd just
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  Speaker 4: say I'll be home the Sarvo and that was it,
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  Speaker 4: or if I was.
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  Speaker 2: Parenting has evolved a lot more, and I think that
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  Speaker 2: in general, parents were a lot more detached a generation ago.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know if detached is the right word. My
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  Speaker 3: parents loved me. They were just happy to let me
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  Speaker 3: go and catch a bus to the beach and hang
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  Speaker 3: out all day. I'm fine. They loved me, though, make
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  Speaker 3: me question my value to my parents.
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  Speaker 2: But I also know that from my parents specifically, it
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  Speaker 2: was really stressful because they couldn't contact me yes, and
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  Speaker 2: so their stress levels were through the roof until they
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  Speaker 2: actually had me home safe.
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  Speaker 3: Right right.
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  Speaker 4: And there is that whole thing, when you get there,
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  Speaker 4: give me a call. I remember Mom and Dad saying
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  Speaker 4: that all the time to me, to my sisters. When
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  Speaker 4: you get there, give me a call. If there's any problems,
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  Speaker 4: just ask somebody if you can use their phone. Of course,
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  Speaker 4: that involved knocking on somebody's door or going into a
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  Speaker 4: shop or something like that. But I also remember we
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  Speaker 4: were just we always had to have money on us
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  Speaker 4: so that we could stop at one of the payphones
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  Speaker 4: and throw some money into the payphone and call to
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  Speaker 4: let our parents know where they were. So I get
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  Speaker 4: the whole safety thing. When the kids are having a sleepop,
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  Speaker 4: when they're hanging out with friends, you just want to
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  Speaker 4: be able to text them and check in. So that's
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  Speaker 4: your first consideration. What's your second one, because I mean
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  Speaker 4: that could mean at the age of five or six,
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  Speaker 4: you've got to give your kids a phone, right.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I guess for some families that might be the case.
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  Speaker 2: My five or six year old wouldn't be away from me, Okay.
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  Speaker 4: One of the considerations would you have though before? Other
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  Speaker 4: than safety? Why else would you give your child a phone?
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  Speaker 2: For me? That's pretty much it.
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  Speaker 3: That's my list. Okay, So what would you be worried about?
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  Speaker 4: Why would you say, I'm not sure if you're ready
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  Speaker 4: for a phone, even though I've got I want to
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  Speaker 4: be able to be in touch with you when you're
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  Speaker 4: away from me.
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  Speaker 2: Just the accessibility to different apps.
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  Speaker 3: So content, Yeah, yeah, it's.
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  Speaker 2: All there, like literally in their hands.
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  Speaker 4: My additional concerns are a refusal to participate in social situations.
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  Speaker 4: The phone facilitates withdrawal rather than interaction and engagement. I'm
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  Speaker 4: also concerned about sleep, and I'm also concerned about physical activity,
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  Speaker 4: Like once that phone's there, if they've got a phone
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  Speaker 4: and a charger, they're pretty happy to sit on the
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  Speaker 4: backside and game or social media one another all day
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  Speaker 4: and all night, and so they miss out on the
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  Speaker 4: fullness of what life offers. And that's something that even
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  Speaker 4: adults struggle with. And so there's some real challenges around that.
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  Speaker 4: The more parents that I talk to, the more consistently
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  Speaker 4: I hear parents basically say once the kids start catching
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  Speaker 4: the bus to school or once they go to high school,
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  Speaker 4: that's when they get a smartphone. That seems to be
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  Speaker 4: the consensus. So I thought I would do a little
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  Speaker 4: bit of digging around and find some research on when
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  Speaker 4: the when the golden rule applies for getting kids their
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  Speaker 4: first phone. I came across a new study out of
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  Speaker 4: Stanford University that shed some light on the topic.
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  Speaker 2: I'm really interested. What did it say?
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  Speaker 4: It found no meaningful association at all, No meaningful association,
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  Speaker 4: no correlation between the age at which children receive their
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  Speaker 4: first phones and their well being as measured by three things.
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  Speaker 4: Their grades, their sleep habits, and the level of depression
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  Speaker 4: that they experience. In other words, you can give a
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  Speaker 4: child a phone at eight or at eighteen or anywhere
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  Speaker 4: in between, and it's essentially not going to have any
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  Speaker 4: impact on their grades, their sleep habits, or how to
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  Speaker 4: press they are. That's the short version of it. We
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  Speaker 4: will link to the write up of the study, so
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  Speaker 4: the I doesn't talk.
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  Speaker 2: About any likelihood of exposure to negative content or anything
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  Speaker 2: like that. We are literally just talking about specific habits.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
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  Speaker 4: So this is a population based study and we're looking
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  Speaker 4: at really general kind of variables. In fact, if we
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  Speaker 4: really wanted to understand the impact of devices on kids
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  Speaker 4: and their well being, what we would have to do
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  Speaker 4: is look at content. Look at not how well they
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  Speaker 4: are when they've got it, and not even look at
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  Speaker 4: how much they're using it, but look at what they're
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  Speaker 4: doing while they're on it.
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  Speaker 3: That's the key. That's what we've really got to worry about.
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  Speaker 4: So I wanted to link to that because I think
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  Speaker 4: that it I think that it should give parents a
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  Speaker 4: little bit of comfort knowing that you can't really get
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  Speaker 4: this thing right or wrong. Kids were no better off
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  Speaker 4: if they got a phone at fourteen than if they
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  Speaker 4: got a phone at ten or even at fifteen or sixteen.
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  Speaker 4: It didn't make any difference in either a positive or
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  Speaker 4: a negative direction, regardless of the age. Your child's not
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  Speaker 4: disadvantaged by having to wait. They're not advantaged by having
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  Speaker 4: to wait.
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  Speaker 2: It also doesn't acknowledge the impact that this has on
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  Speaker 2: their connections with friends.
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  Speaker 4: Either correct correct. So it's a pretty general study looking
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  Speaker 4: just at those three things. But I think that there's
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  Speaker 4: comfort there. Grades unaffected, sleep surprisingly generally unaffected. And they
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  Speaker 4: had the kids wearing an accelerometer, So I think that
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  Speaker 4: might be a little bit of a weakness there, because
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  Speaker 4: if I'm wearing an accelerometer and I'm laying in bed
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  Speaker 4: staring at my phone, the accelerometer may give the what
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  Speaker 4: it shows that I'm immobile, so the data might show
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  Speaker 4: that my sleep is happening, but I'm not asleep at all.
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  Speaker 4: I'm just staring at my screen in my bedroom. So
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  Speaker 4: I think that there are question marks on that specific finding.
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  Speaker 4: But in relation to like I said, grades and depressive symptoms,
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  Speaker 4: we've got good measures for those two things, and they
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  Speaker 4: were generally unaffected. Therefore, early or late phone acquisition in
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  Speaker 4: terms of impact on well being and arguably sleep and
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  Speaker 4: certainly grades, it doesn't seem to make any difference. What
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  Speaker 4: I think really matters when we're deciding whether to give
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  Speaker 4: our kids phone or not is their capacity to regulate
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  Speaker 4: their use and avoid unsafe, unhealthy content. That's kind of it,
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  Speaker 4: which means they're the conversations we need to have.
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  Speaker 2: What I love about this study is just this acknowledgment
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  Speaker 2: that I think, for the most part, as parents, in
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  Speaker 2: spite of how challenging this area is to navigate with
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  Speaker 2: our children, that as we make decisions based on the
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  Speaker 2: needs of our children, we're more likely to get things
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  Speaker 2: right for our family. Yes, it's the right fit for
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  Speaker 2: our family, and I recognize that for so long there's
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  Speaker 2: probably been a lot of parental judgment going on based
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  Speaker 2: on they gave their child a phone at ten. But
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  Speaker 2: everybody's circumstances is different, everybody's needs are different, and so
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  Speaker 2: I think what this study just highlights is as long
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  Speaker 2: as we're taking into consideration the needs of our family,
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  Speaker 2: the needs of our children, that we kind of can't
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  Speaker 2: get it wrong. Yeah, And it's really about having those
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  Speaker 2: conversations with our kids pre arming them, and then continuing
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  Speaker 2: to educate them as they grow and mature so that
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  Speaker 2: they can navigate to the challenges that are in front
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  Speaker 2: of them.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that's it.
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  Speaker 4: You can't get it wrong, and there's no need for
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  Speaker 4: any parent shaming around this. I think they're really the
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  Speaker 4: take home messages. So if you want to get you
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: kids fun of Christmas, do it, but make sure you
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  Speaker 4: have regular conversations, make sure that they know the risks,
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: make sure that you're monitoring what's going on, and that
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  Speaker 4: they're living a full and whole life. I mean, we
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: can get involved in a whole lot more nuance around this.
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  Speaker 4: There's some really great content that Joscelyn Brewer puts out.
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  Speaker 3: You can find her.
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  Speaker 4: Stuff around digital nutrition, and I recommend Joscelyn's work really,
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  Speaker 4: really highly. She's actually got a new webinar out all
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: about when you should give your kids a mobile phone,
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  Speaker 4: and she unsurprisingly comes to a fairly similar conclusion. I
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  Speaker 4: just want to highlight as well, this was a really
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  Speaker 4: smart study. It was in a highly regarded journal called
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  Speaker 4: Child Development. It was a five year longitudinal study. Like
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  Speaker 4: the data here, they haven't just pulled this stuff out
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  Speaker 4: of the air and said, oh, yeah, look, it'll be fine.
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  Speaker 3: These are Stanford researchers. It's really really great stuff.
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  Speaker 2: So I know you're the parenting expert, and you've just said,
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  Speaker 2: if you want to get your kids a phone, give
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  Speaker 2: them a phone. But I'm going to put my little
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  Speaker 2: disclaimer in there.
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  Speaker 3: Oh I said that a little bit glibly.
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  Speaker 2: You did.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I did.
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  Speaker 4: I'm glad you pulled me up on that, because I'm
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  Speaker 4: not shouldn't be that gliber I would delay.
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  Speaker 2: I would always delay as long as is possible.
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  Speaker 4: And we've done that. We've absolutely done that consistently because.
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  Speaker 2: Just like buying a family pet has lots of positives,
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  Speaker 2: there are a whole heap of cons that you have
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  Speaker 2: to deal with and you are bringing in more challenges.
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  Speaker 3: It adds to your workload as a parent totally. So yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and the costs.
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  Speaker 2: My suggestion is delay, delay, delay, but when the time
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  Speaker 2: is right, you don't need to feel guilty about it,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: make the decision and then move forward.
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  Speaker 4: See I was just wrapping up the podcast and using
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: that as a throwaway line. You've picked me up on it,
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: and you've done the right thing. We really hope though,
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: that there's been a helpful conversation for you. Tomorrow, we'll
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: be answering a question from a listener that I think
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: is a really important one for anyone with.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: A child who is neurodivergent.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: We're going to be talking a little bit about ADHD.
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: And then on Wednesday, Ah such a super important conversation
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: with doctor Anthea Rhodes from the Royal Children's Hospital. They've
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: got a new poll out about kids and water safety.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: This is one you don't want to miss so much
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  Speaker 4: coming up this week on the Happy Families podcast. Thank
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: you so much for listening. As always, we appreciate our
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: producer Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. He does such great work. Justin,
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: thank you for what you do. Craig Bruce is our
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: executive producer. We love him too. And if you'd like
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: more information about making your family happier or about the
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: things we've talked about today, check the show notes for
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: the podcast episode today, or visit us on our Facebook
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: page Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families or at happy families.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: Dot com dot a. You