Latest / North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast / Craig Counsell left Milwaukee and the Brewers still dominated the division

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Craig Counsell left Milwaukee and the Brewers still dominated the division · North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: It's a bad look for the Cubs to say, like
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: we need to be more like the Brewers. It's just
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: a bad real They know that, but it's not something
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: that has changed. Welcome into Northside Territory FIUL Territory Networks
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Cubs podcast. I'm Sahadev Sharma with Patrick Mooney, where your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Cubs beat writers over at the Athletic and Patrick, not
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: that it was in any doubt, but the Cubs are
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: officially eliminated from not playoff contention, but the division as
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the Brewers have clinched the division Milwaukee Brewers or NL
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Central Champs. I believe this is their sixth playoff appearance
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: in the last seven years for an organization that just
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: didn't make the playoffs very much before that. This isn't
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: too dissimilar to the cubs little run from fifteen to
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen. They're eighteen. I guess where they were making
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: the playoffs a ton and they just never did that.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: But this is a completely different organization right that now
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the Cubs are striving to become like the Milwaukee Brewers.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: I don't like it feels odd to say that, but
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: that is the reality that the Cubs are faced with.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: And the Milwaukee Brewers or division champs. I think it's
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: something that Jed Hoyer, Carter Hawkins, Tom Ricketts, everyone needs
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: to grapple with and figure out how this happened and
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: how the Cubs can get back to the top of
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: this division.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can go over some of the history
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: and the developments that led up to this, but I
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: think just to take a second and be like, we
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: write about the Cubs all the time, we talk about
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: the Cubs all the time.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: When was the last time we even mentioned the division deficit?
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's just how much the degree to the
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Brewers ran away with this division.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: I feel it.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Had been conceded from a Cubs perspective a long time ago,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: and that our focus in terms of conveying what's going
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: on to our readers and listeners was all about just
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: that last wild card spot, which had just kind of
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: an amazing lowering of expectations at Wrigley Field. The fact
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: that the Brewers just jumped out so far ahead, and
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: the Cubs and Brewers wrapped up their season series relatively early,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: especially after all the turnover that's happened in Milwaukee. For
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: the Cubs to just get lapped like this should be
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: just an enormous wake up call that whatever the Cubs
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: are doing, it is not good enough.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I look at these teams and I said this
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: for seven eight years, I don't see like this glaring
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: difference in talent, and every year, for the most part,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: they seem to maximize the talent in Milwaukee and they're
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: unable to do so, or you know, they just get
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: what the computer spits out and says this team is
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: expected to be. That's what has kind of happened in
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: the last couple of years for the Cubs. I think
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: that's that's something that will we'll dive into in the offseason,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: I think, and have to press Jet on is is
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: you know, how do you get this team to project
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: to be better? You know, not project to be one
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: thing and hope that you extract four, five, six, seven
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: extra wins. They need to project to be a better
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: team because they're projecting to be the team that they
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: have been the past couple of years. And that's that's
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: not Obviously, it's not good enough when you're falling short
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: of the playoffs, Milwaukee seems to I don't think the
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: goal should be exactly what Milwaukee does, which is their
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: projections probably have them at like eighty five wins or
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: something like that, and then they and then they win
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: ninety something games. I'm not sure if you're if you're
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: if you're the white Chicago Cubs, I don't think your
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: goal should be to outwin your lower projections, right if
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: your goal, yeah, sure, always your goal should be to
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: win more than the projections say. But your projections should
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: be much better than what the Cubs say. Cubs are,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: It's it's just sometimes mind boggling to kind of wrap
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: to understand how baseball works, right, Like, some of this
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: stuff is so random, and some of this stuff is
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: hard to fully appreciate and explain. But whatever the Brewers
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: are doing, the Cubs need to catch up. I do
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: think there are some things that are going on behind
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: the scenes that aren't fully appreciated. The Brewers like to
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: keep things under wraps. They're they're not the type of
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: organization that goes around boasting about what they do. They
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: just do things really well, uh, and so it's hard
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: to get, you know, detailed information about what they do
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: uh and what they're doing well. But clearly it's a
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: it's a well run organization from top to bottom. And
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: when I say that, I mean like it's not just
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: well the Brewers, Like there's a lot of talk of Baltimore,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Right well, the Baltimore excels at developing, uh, position player talent.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: That's what you can quickly go to that. If I
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: had to pick one thing with the Brewers, it's identifying,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: it's identifying relief pitching talent. That that's where they really
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: stand out to me. But then you go up and
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: down and they're they're doing a good job. They nail trades.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: William Contreres is a good trade. Uh. You can talk
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: about Jackson Curio developing him. They've done a much better
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: job of late of developing younger talent. That used to
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: be something that they struggled with, but now they're starting
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: to consistently produce, you know, players from their minor league system.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: So it's pro scouting, it's R and D, it's international scouting,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: it's amateur scouting. They seem to be doing a lot
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: of that well right now. So, like I said, just
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  Speaker 1: a good organization overall.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I feel like we've gone through this year
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: after year after year of the Brewers are done The Brewers, No,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: they can't put together and they always outperform and you
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: may be able to help me answer this hot day.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: But I was looking at Baseball References, amazing website on
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: there all the time, and I'm just kind of gets
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: to this idea of like on paper and projection systems
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: that William Damas on Baseball References down for three point
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: one war. That is a shortstop who's played one hundred
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and fifty two games with thirty two homers, one hundred
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: and nine RBIs. Michael Bush for the Cubs as three
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: point one war in like hundreds of at bats less
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: and he's having a nice season twenty homers, sixty four
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: RBIs and a lower ops at a less valuable position.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: And to me, I'm just like trying to figure out
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: how that happens. And it's just like kind of one
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: example of like you know, you kind of have to
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: watch the Brewers and follow them closely, I think to
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: like appreciate like how good they are. Like if we
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: hadn't spent so many nights up in Milwaukee and kind
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: of seen the arc of that team, I think it'd
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: be there would be pretty easy to dismiss. And they're
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: like the kind of prod some darlings. But they've got
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: guys who play every day like dynamic two way foundational players.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: They've got a nice wave of young players coming.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: Up their pitching development.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I mean that pitching staff has several X cubs who
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason, didn't work out.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: In Chicago, but they've you know, kind of found their
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: groove here.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: And look, Pat Murphy, I don't think anyone several years
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: ago is this the guy is the next great manager.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: He was kind of Counsel's buddy, Counsel's old college coach,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: kind of an old school gruff sarcastic bad cop to
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Counsel's detached demeanor. And clearly he's got that team, you know,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: playing I don't know if it's above their heads, but
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: just at a really high level that I don't think
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  Speaker 2: anyone outside Milwaukee expected.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: We get it.
• 8:50
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: No, I mean he deserves a ton of credit for
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: keeping things together all the things that they lost in
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the offseason, Corbin Burns, Craig count Soul, Brandon Woodriff mid season,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Christian Yalich going down, Devin Williams not being with the
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: team to open the season. I'm probably missing one or
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: two things there, but just incredible. Uh, you kind of
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: touched on it there, but like Willi Adamas versus Michael Bush, right, Like,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: so I'm looking at their offense, okay, Christian Yalich standout
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: performer for seventy three games, awesome MVP type performance. Offensively okay,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: But then you look up and down their lineup and
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at way To runs great a plus okay,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: William Contreres one thirty two. How are the Cubs gonna
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: match that? Say, Suzuki way To runs great at plus
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: one thirty four? Okay, So similar offensive players, Ian Happ
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: has a better way to runs created plus than Willy Adamas.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Michael Busch has the same, so that should equal like
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Jackson Curio who has a one to twenty. Like, they
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: have these guys and then then you have Cody Bellinger. Uh,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I mean Mike Taukman has the same production offensive production
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: as Joey Ortiz, right, So like offensively, when you when
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: you talk about this, they have these guys that that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: are producing in a similar fashion. It's it's it is
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: around the margins that my guess is you break down
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: month by month. The Brewers don't have this dreadful month
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: of where where they didn't hit with runners in the
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: scoring position or they just didn't hit.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: When I when I talk about the overall numbers. Jackson
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Curio has been playing like a superstar for the past
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: month and a half. Right now, you could say, well,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Peter Armstrong has been playing at a similarly high level. Sure, Okay, uh,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that that has happened. They the Cubs are getting good
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: performances out of players. A lot of it is like
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: when it's happening, how it's happening, situationally. So it's not
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: like I think something a concept that I'm I'm curious
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: about when it comes to what Jed Hoyer thinks, what
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Creig Council thinks, what the players think is are the
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Brewers really right now? There are eleven games ahead of
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the Cubs, are they? Are they double digits better than
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: the Cups? In my mind, I like, if any of
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: them believes they're that far ahead, I'd be shocked. Yeah, right,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: And I don't think they're that far ahead. But I
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: do think something like, I don't care if it's one
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: game or eleven games. They are better than the Cups.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: They're doing things now in the Cups, you know, So
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I don't want it to seem like it's impossible for
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the Cubs to catch them next year. I think that
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: would be looking at the standings right now. It would
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: make it feel like it is. It's really hard to
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: make up ten plus games right if you're looking at
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: it like strictly in that fashion. I just don't think
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: you can look at it strictly in that fashion. I
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: think when we talk about, like when we talk about
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: how far away the hubs are, I think one of
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the big things you have to keep in mind is
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: and I think this is why I keep harping on
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: the idea of closing that margin for error. When little things,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: little things, they're not little things, but things like hitters
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: with runners, hitting with runners in scoring position, the bullpen
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: not having a down six weeks or whatever it is,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: offense suddenly cratering all guys struggling at once. There has
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: to be a way to make up for that. When
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I brought up Christian Yelich, he was there for seventy
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: three games. He was a superstar for fifty of those games. Okay,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Jackson Curio has been a superstar for the last thirty
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: ish games. William Domas was a superstar for fifty games, right,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: William Contreras, like they had guys picking up the slack
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: at different times, of the season, while the Cubs had
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: a lot of guys get hot for a month and
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: a half and it happened to happen like the same time,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: like August ish right when they had that great month,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: and they didn't. I don't know what that says and
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: what that means. That's what I think Jed and Carter
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: need to figure out, right, like they what the Brewers,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: There's something There's a little randomness involved here with what
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about, because these guys stepped up at different times, right,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: But that's how it worked, Like they had different guys
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: stepping up at different times. Is Willia domis an MVP player? No,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: he's not. But is he a really good consistent player? Yes?
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Did he play like an MVP for probably like a
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: month and a half of the season, yes, So like
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: those those types of things were happening, and they happened
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: spread out enough with different players that it really worked
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: for their offense. What didn't dip And I saw this
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: really interesting chart of like teams that how teams got
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: to where they are, like win probability added, which between
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: bull starting pitching in offense, the Brewers like majority of it,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: who added the most win Like who added the most
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: win probability to their season was their bullpen. And I
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: think that's something that the Cubs and now I don't
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: think that the Brewers spend a lot of money there.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: They don't, but they've nailed it year after year after year.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: They continue to nail the talent there. I think that's
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: that's something that stood out to me, like, Wow, they're
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: getting there because their bullpen didn't have like a down
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: multiple weeks. I'm sure they had bad games, but they
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: didn't struggle very much over the course of the season.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: They weren't down moments, and that allowed them to really
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: thrive because the rest of their group was like I mean,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: starting pitching was below average and offense was above average,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: and the bullpen was standout. That's an interesting recipe for
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: success in my opinion, especially when you think about how
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Jed Hoyer his philosophy with building a team. He's not
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: going to say like, well, we have to have this
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: stout bullpend that's number one. You know, he'd never he'd
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: never say that, and I don't and I'm not sure
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: if I'd disagree with him saying that.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, clearly there's a difference between like
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: just collecting bodies and throwing stuff against the wall and
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: like recognizing talent and what is more sustainable than not
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And look, the Cubs, I have a lot of success
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: stories with this, and I think, like if you're looking
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: at a guy like McGill or Hudson, like it maybe
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: just wasn't gonna happen with the Cubs. Sometimes it's just
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: like timing where a player is at, like kind of
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: personally professionally, like are they ready to accept certain changes,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: like do they have the are they in that place
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: mentally and physically where they can follow through and execute
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: on all these suggestions. But it just seems to me
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: like the Brewers are going to be a problem. Like
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I think we all thought like, oh, David Stearns, you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: to his kind of sabbatical year, then went to New
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: York Craig council leaves. They trade Corbin Burns like okay,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Brewers like like check back in like four years, right,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, I mean just looking at their
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: kind of roster depth chart, their financial books, like Yelich,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: hopefully he's good to go, but he's had a you know,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: serious you back injury back issue for a while now.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: But he's certainly been that MVP type Talibert guy you're
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: talking about Churio Freelik, I mean, Garrett Mitchell, talk about
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: a guy that the Cubs were on in that twenty
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: twenty draft class and had some good reports on and
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: ultimately passed on him and picked Ed Howard and Mitchell
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: kind of just like steps in and already has like
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: a two war season in like sixty games. Now that
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean he does it over one sixty two, but
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: yet another young guy that they can build around.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: You've got Wyn Patres. I mean, he won't enter the
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: arms system until next year.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Now, He's probably not a perfect defensive catcher, right, I mean,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: if he's anything like his brother, there's probably some some
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: give and take there. But you did all the reporting,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: the legwork on how the Cubs were searching for catching
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: help of the trade deadline, Like how rare is that
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: to have just a middle of the order hitter who's
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: also a passable catcher and like a you know, huge
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: energetic force on the field and in your clubhouse. And look,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know if Pat Murphy's kind of routine is
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: going to work every single year or over the long term,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: but clearly that there's been some sort of like.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Buy in there.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: There was kind of this show of unity for Murphy's
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: press conference where all these coaches who did not leave
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: for Chicago with council where they were there in the auditorium.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Domins will be free agent.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: I got to think he's looking at Dansby's Dansby Swanson's
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: contract of like I'm as good or much better than him.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: So they'll they'll certainly have to.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Retool and you know kind of reallocate resources, but like
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: they're not a team that gives up their ownership group
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: and kind of their business model. I mean, you've seen
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: those parking lots right, so of like when we're yeah,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: we're come back up to the press box stern games
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: or after games, you just see the just a trail
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: of headlights kind of coming in. Now they're like people
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: up there love their brewers, they love tailgating. Uh, it's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: a really nice stadium and ballpark experience.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: And like they'll draw close to three million, Like they've
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: they've got a.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Good business that there, especially when they're shaking down Wisconsin
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: tax payers for the renovate their stadium and keep it going.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: But like overall, like it's an operation that's gonna keep trying,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: and it's gonna be you know, not just a past
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: but like a team that the Cubs are chasing.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I am curious to see how their off season
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: goes that Like Adamis isn't coming back, right, like he's
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: gonna go tobody. Yeah, And so that that's a significant Uh,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: that's that's gonna be a significant change. They probably have
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: someone that that's ready to move to shortstop that I'm
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: not thinking about the top of my head. I don't
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: know if Bryce Terrang's shortstop or or what. But but
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: knowing that team, knowing that organization, that they'll be ready
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: to fill that spot. And and they they are going
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: to come with a very competitive team next season, like.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Joe or Teas may have some shortstop okay, and his
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: background the guy they got in the Burns trade, So
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: you're right, you know, they got options.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Right, and they probably have that in the back of
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: their mind, like we're gonna we're gonna lose a Domis. Uh,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: this trade helps us for twenty twenty four and beyond. Uh.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: So so that that that makes a ton of sense. Well,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: we'll see how how they do that. I just you know,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: like I just you write this or team off and
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: you're making a mistake. And I'm sure we were not alone,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: or at least I was not alone when when I
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: said the Brewers are going to struggle this year after
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: all the moves they made in the off season or
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the lack of moves. I guess that they that that happened.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I just don't what bothers me about how this is.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: How we look at this now is like it's just bad.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: It's a bad look for the Cubs to say, like
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: we need to be more like the Brewers. It's just
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a bad and that they know that. But it's not
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: something that that has changed. Like, think about this, Patrick,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: We've talked about this, you and I. We've talked about
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: it with theo Epstein. We've talked about it with Jed Hoyer.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: They've they've looked at the Brewers longingly with how they
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: maximize their talent right, and they thought they had reasons why,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: But I don't think they fully understood why how they
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: were doing it right. You know, they like, like the
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the problem was the manager at one point, and they
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: went and got David Ross and and now now they
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: have Craig counsel, the guy that was doing it in Milwaukee.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: The problems aren't fixed, not yet, like we aren't seeing
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: it on the field, so there's more work to be done.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'll tell you how far it goes back.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, I distinctly remember after Tom Rickets fired Jim
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Henry or I should say, once that secret decision became public,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: and I remember hearing about how internally with the Cubs
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: there was this kind of like hmm, how did the
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Brewers do this? Because that year, you know, they advanced
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: to the NLCS, they won ninety six games like it's
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: it's and obviously they did recede a little bit after that,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't like, you know, they were a team
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: like the Rays where you just kind of viewed as
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: this like putting edge, you know, secretive operations, just like
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: they're just like good at what they do. I'm trying,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna talk like counsel here, like they know what
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: they're good at, they're good at, uh, and what they're
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: good at they're really good at.
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: He just has all those sort of like sayings of.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Just kind of an awareness and the aptitude to kind
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: of just keep going and knowing your identity and not
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: kind of chasing certain trends of just like this is
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: our philosophy, these are our values and really sort of
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: sticking to that. And you know, I'm with you on
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the I think it's appropriate, particularly with counsel leaving Milwaukee,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: like we have to address this and analyze this.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: It's interesting.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: But like if the Cubs you know, going to this
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: offseason being like, oh, we got to be like the Brewers,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Like that's that's a joke. Like if they want to
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: be like the Brewers and they can like you know,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: slash their ticket prices or something like that, like they should,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: you know, want to be like the Dodgers, the Braves,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: you know, just teams like that. And I think that's
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: where some of the internal confusion is of kind of
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: like what exactly do they want to be. That's certainly
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: on the outside of fans wondering like where is this going?
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: And you're right, like, I think part of this, you know,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: end of season, you know, debrief and download that we're doing,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: like you want to point fingers or you know, you
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: can point out certain deficiencies with the roster, but like
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: the Cubs have a lot of good players, like and
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: we'll get into this in future episodes. Like the problem
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: isn't Ian Hap, who's having like a four war season,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: has you know, embodies a lot of what do Who's
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: shown significant improvement over the years and found a great
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: sense of routine and consistency. Like we'll get into you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: do they trade Nico Horner or whatever. It's like, these
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: are like solidly above average, good major league players who
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: represent your organization well, who fit in the clubhouse really well.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: It's not like you're not gonna like blow all that up,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: but you do have to kind of get outside that
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: comfort zone, I think, and take on some more risks,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: certainly on the financial side, and I think show a
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: little more aggressiveness and conviction in a way that I
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: do think the Brewers have shown. Like you can disagree with,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: you know, the Burns decision, but like they know their
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: plan and they're gonna get rid of that guy.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: A year before he hits free agency.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: They replenish, they see who they think is a future
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: star and they give him a huge deal and they
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: kind of push him up to Milwaukee.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: In the center fielder.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: And so they draft pretty well without drafting at the
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: top of the draft.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: We've joked about their pitch lab.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: They don't have a literal sign up there with a
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: red arrow saying pitch lab in progress. You know, we
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: don't know that for a fact. We don't go over
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: to Brewers' training camp that much. But definitely a team
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: that I think it's important to study but not emulate.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, no, they're I mean, I think you said
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: it well with that. The Cubs need to be like
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: the Dodgers, and I mean, shoot, like the Mets. The
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Mets had a mess of the season last year, spending
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: and reset so quickly and did a good job. It
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: looked like it was a disaster early on this season,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: but they bounced back and and some of that, you know,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I need to dig into that more. And and there's
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: interesting parts about that, like not giving up on on
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: young prospects like Mark Vientos, right like stuff like that,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: a guy that looked lost and terrible. It's a reminder
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: for all fans like just to remember, look look at
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: how bad Mark Ventros looked and now he's a huge
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: part of that. But also they went and made the
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Bowl trade for the superstar in Francisco Lindor And as
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: much criticism as Lindor sometimes gets. He's a difference maker there,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: he's up for MVP. But it's also like they're a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: fun team and it's a very entertaining brand of baseball
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: that they're playing through injuries, through issues, whatever's going on,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: they seem to step up. And that's some of that
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: is the randomness of baseball. I think that I started
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: this with and I think that makes it more fun.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: And the Cubs could certainly have that go their way
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: some year, and it probably did in the past, but
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it isn't right now, so it makes it seem all
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: doom and gloom. But I think you're right when you say, like, hey,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: there are good players here like I and Hap takes
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: so much criticism and he's twenty seventh in War, I believe,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: according to Fangrafts in Baseball, right behind, right behind here
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: are the three players which margin Ferrer is like, So
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: he has three point nine War, Gordon Fangrafs, Raphael Dever's
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: four point one, Corbyn Carroll four point zero, Freddie Freeman
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: four point zero. Okay, like War isn't perfect, but if
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: you're in the same category of those guys, you're a
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: really good player, like they have talented and I'm not
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: like there's others like Ian Half right, say Suzuki is
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: a really good player or Armstrong has turned himself into
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: a really good player. We could name every single player
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: you know pretty much and be like, these are good
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: building blocks at minimum. So now it's up to Jed
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Hoyer and company to figure out how to close that
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: gap and and take that extra step and make sure
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: a year from now we're not talking about the same
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: things of how are the Brewers doing this and the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Cups can't?
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 29:47
  Speaker 6: Uh?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Because that's I think because a year from now, if
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: we are having this conversation, we're also having the conversation
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: about a new front office that they're gonna have to
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: hire because changes will be coming like that, it just
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: cannot happen, all right, Patrick, Let's let's wrap it up there.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: That's enough Brewers talk.
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: Enough talk.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think fans are sick of it already. Hey,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I'll say this, I guess at least it's not the Cardinals, right,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Cubs fans, although although they're they're tied now with the
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Cubs as we record this in the division. I think
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Cubs fans just want to finish ahead of the Cardinals. Uh,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: and that's that's the lone goal for them right now,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: but obviously higher aspirations this offseason and beyond, and we'll
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: be tackling all that in.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: The episodes to come.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Make sure to subscribe, rate and review to north Side Territory,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Subscribe to The Athletic, subscribe to the north Side Territory
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: YouTube channel. Please that that helps us a ton. Thanks
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: so much for listening everyone. We'll be back at you
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: with the Mailbag episode soon.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: Take care,