Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Chesapeake Bay Decoys & the Craftsmen Who Shaped Waterfowling History (Ep 757)

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Chesapeake Bay Decoys & the Craftsmen Who Shaped Waterfowling History (Ep 757) · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• 0:26
  VO: Can we do a mic check, please? Everybody, welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast. I'm your host, doctor Mike Brasher. I'm your host, Katie Burke. I'm your host, doctor Jerad Henson. And I'm your host, Matt Harrison. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast, the only podcast about all things waterfowl. From hunting insights to science based discussions about ducks, geese, and issues affecting waterfowl and wetlands conservation in North America. The DU Podcast, sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Also proudly sponsored by Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails. Whether you're winding down with your best friend or celebrating with your favorite crew, Bird Dog brings award winning flavor to every moment. Enjoy responsibly.
• 1:32
  Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast. I'm your host, Katie Burke. And today on this show, I have special guest, Chad Trigakis. Chad is a decoy collector, waterfowl historian, particularly of the Chesapeake Bay region, and he's a writer and editor for Decoy Magazine.
• 1:51
  Welcome to the show, Chad.
• 1:52
  Chad Tragakis: Katie, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
• 1:55
  Katie Burke: I've known about you for a long time, so it's nice to actually talk to you. I've read many of your articles.
• 2:00
  Chad Tragakis: Thank you.
• 2:01
  Katie Burke: How long have you been writing for Decoy?
• 2:03
  Chad Tragakis: I wrote a story for Decoy Magazine on William Heverin, and that was in '97. So it's been a it's been a long time. It's been a while.
• 2:14
  Katie Burke: Okay. So especially when I have a new guest, I always like to tell people a little bit more about you, but I know that you're not a waterfowler. So how did you get into decoys and this whole crazy world?
• 2:29
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. It's a great it's a great question and one that I I I do get asked sometimes because people get are surprised that, you know, hey, you're you're so into the decoys, but, you know, you're you're not really a duck hunter. And and it's interesting. In the history of decoy collecting, there were quite a number of of early and prominent collectors who also were not duck hunters, and I guess I guess I'm in that vein. But but for me, it really started one summer.
• 2:58
  I was up on Cape Cod in Massachusetts and wandered into a little shop and saw these things that I I guess I had heard about, seen them in antique stores, and and they were having a sale that day. And I I said, gosh, that'll look great on my bookshelf. That'll give my room a little bit of sophistication, and didn't know a whole lot about them. So came home from vacation, went to the library, got all the books I could find on decoys, and came to the realization that this incredible American folk art and history was practically in my backyard in the Chesapeake Bay region. And so really started to read more, learn more.
• 3:44
  I was talking to people that were making decoys and selling decoys and and got the bug pretty bad and changed my focus to the Chesapeake Bay. And and then fast forward a whole lot of years, and and it's just been an amazing hobby, an amazing journey, and I have met so many incredible people in this community. And Yeah. I I it's it's awesome as you as you as you know, because I know you've you've been a part of this this group for a a long time as well.
• 4:17
  Katie Burke: Yeah. It's really kind of yeah. It's changed my life too in a lot of ways and kinda opened up a lot of things that I never would have expected. People are very welcoming in this community, which is so nice.
• 4:28
  Chad Tragakis: They are.
• 4:28
  Katie Burke: Okay. So what did what was that first decoy? Do you remember?
• 4:32
  Chad Tragakis: I do. I still have it.
• 4:33
  Katie Burke: Decoy?
• 4:33
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. It was a Yeah. It was a factory made bird repainted as a scoder, which which would be fitting for New England. Yeah. I have no idea what factory it it was from.
• 4:48
  It could be East Coast. It could be Midwest, but I still have it. It was about $20 back in 1989, I think it was. So it it's it's probably still worth about $20, but I love it just because it was the one that that started me down the road.
• 5:08
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Funny. I think you're the first person I've heard that their first decoy was a scoter. Yeah. That's an one.
• 5:15
  Chad Tragakis: It is. It is.
• 5:17
  Katie Burke: Maybe they just had a lot of black paint. They're just like, let's
• 5:19
  Chad Tragakis: just do that. Yeah.
• 5:22
  Katie Burke: So what were some of those early books that really kind of made you go look for more stuff? Like, what was when you were reading, what was the where was the interest kinda heading?
• 5:33
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, yeah. Well, it's it's it's funny you asked that because I when I got back to my public library and I I went in and I I looked up decoys. You know, they had I think they had two or three. And then, you know, through interlibrary loan, I was able to get several more. But, you know, it was it was the classics, and I'm so glad that those were the books that I read.
• 5:55
  And when people ask me now getting into the hobby, they're still the books I recommend. You know? I'm talking about wild fowl decoys by Joel Barber, American bird decoys by Bill Mackie, the art of the decoy by Adele Ernest, decoys of the Atlantic flyway by by doctor George Ross Starr. And then I remember at a bookstore, I found a copy of the collector's guide to decoys by by Jean and Linda Kangas, which I think is also an excellent entry for for new collectors. It's it covers a lot of ground in a very approachable way.
• 6:29
  Yeah. And then
• 6:30
  Katie Burke: That's a great book.
• 6:31
  Chad Tragakis: It it's fantastic. And then, you know, learning more about the region, it was it was Evans McKinney's book, Decoys of the Susquehanna Flats and Their Makers, the book that Bobby Richardson edited, which is a just a fantastic book, Chesapeake Bay Decoys, The Men Who Made and Used Them, and Decoys of the Mid Atlantic region by Henry Fleckenstein. So so many really good ones. And then I started to read some of the fantastic articles in Decoy Magazine, which I also encourage anybody with even a a passing interest in decoys to subscribe to. It's the it's the it's the record of the hobby.
• 7:10
  It's the journal of the hobby. And Mhmm. And in that, you know, in that magazine, I was reading articles by C. John Sullivan junior who's, you know, who's become a great friend and mentor. And so it just continued to fascinate me.
• 7:26
  And it wasn't long before I I was thinking, well, gosh. There's makers who are important. There are aspects of decoys that are important that no one seems to have addressed or written about or or studied. Mhmm. And so that was a fantastic way to to to delve in deeper and really become immersed in the in the hobby and the field.
• 7:48
  Katie Burke: Yeah. And I like that you started with reading because that's one of the main things, like, everyone when I ask people, like, what do you recommend to do for, like, people getting into it? Like, the main one of the I'd say one of the top three things is read. Read a lot.
• 8:03
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, you you're so
• 8:04
  Katie Burke: right. One.
• 8:05
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. Build a library. Right? You know, I've heard people put it this way, which I love, and I also share this when people ask me. You know, I've got $300.
• 8:15
  What what are what what's the first duck I should buy? What's the how should I approach it? And I say, don't don't use that $300 on on a decoy. Build your library. Get the books Yeah.
• 8:26
  That will that will, right, give you the grounding, give you the understanding. And, you know, one of the things I also love about decoys is that there are so many aspects to why decoys are important. They are this really unique fusion of art and nature and history and Americana and the, you know, the great American tradition of hunting. And so when you can understand them and appreciate them from all of those different dimensions, to me, it really makes them a lot more it makes them a lot more enjoyable. It makes it makes them a lot more interesting.
• 9:05
  You know, you're not just looking at it through any one of those lenses, but you're really looking at it through all of those lenses.
• 9:11
  Katie Burke: And especially, which we'll talk about more, like, the way it speaks to a region and what was going on during that time as well. Like, you're really getting into
• 9:19
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, yeah.
• 9:20
  Katie Burke: The unique thing about United States is that we're all we're all one country, but everything's vastly different. Right? So Absolutely. Comes you see that in decoys as well.
• 9:30
  Chad Tragakis: You really do. And and and that and that's one of the things that I I I love about telling the stories of the decoys, the the makers, the clubs, the you know? Because what I get to do is I get all these little segues, and and I it it really is like you're telling the story of at least that little slice of America and our history and our culture. And that's just it's such a fun thing to do to, again, to help put them all in in perspective.
• 9:57
  Katie Burke: Okay. Before we get as I have a lot of questions that are, like, Chesapeake Bay focused, but I wanna talk about you a little bit more. So when so the next thing everyone always says is, you know, pick up as many decoys as you can. So when after going and learning more about decoys did you decide on Chesapeake Bay, and what was your approach to getting hands on decoys particularly? How did you learn from them?
• 10:23
  Yeah.
• 10:24
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. No. It's well, I think I I am absolutely like every other new collector in that I probably made every mistake in the book. And Great. Right?
• 10:34
  It's hard. It's hard. There's the desire to to go from one to 30 instead of Yeah. Case by case. And so, obviously, that's that's a nice lesson I've learned.
• 10:44
  But, you know, I think I started gravitating toward factory decoys. They were they were accessible. They were affordable. Mhmm. And they it was a a fun way to learn and started to find a few dealers and decoys.
• 11:03
  And and it wasn't long before I really started to understand that, oh my gosh. There's a whole community here. There's a whole network of shows and events. And so I think it was all around the same time that I figured out the the local decoys to me. The Chesapeake Bay decoys were a lot more interesting just because they were from, you know, from my region.
• 11:29
  And so then I started to, again, learn and, you know, dip your toe in the water with a with a few of the more common more commonly found decoys, repainted decoys, and and, eventually, you, you know, you learn what what makes a a a a great decoy great versus a good decoy, and and you you sort of refine those tastes. And it was also, I guess, within a few years that that I met a bunch of collectors in the Virginia, Maryland area who were forming a club, and that club was the Potomac Decoy Collectors Association. And it was fantastic. I was probably the the youngest member by twenty years at the time. And so I had all these incredible guys to to listen to and learn from.
• 12:18
  And and it was it it again, it was just another incredible aspect of our hobby and our community, the people. Every walk of life. You know, we had so many different kinds of people at our in that club and at our meetings and still do to this day. But every one of them has this shared passion, and and it really forms an incredible bond among among the group.
• 12:40
  Katie Burke: Yeah. It does. Yeah. And that's also another thing I've always noticed with collectors, like, the importance of mentors and having people you can go to and just I mean, I even do it in my job, though. I don't actually collect anything.
• 12:53
  I use it I mean, I do for the museum. I collect for the museum.
• 12:56
  Chad Tragakis: But Oh, yeah.
• 12:57
  Katie Burke: I You've got a time to have texted a picture. It's just somebody. What is this? Do you know what this is?
• 13:04
  Chad Tragakis: And and right. And and everybody will step away. They could be in an important business meeting, but, oh, it's a decoy question. I I better answer that right away.
• 13:14
  Katie Burke: Yeah. I do
• 13:14
  Chad Tragakis: all the time. But but through the through your museum, Katie, you've got I mean, right, you've got an amazing collection that you're in charge of. You get to see it every day.
• 13:22
  Katie Burke: It's really fun because we don't really hold I mean, we have a collection that's pretty small, but we have so much we get to loan most of our stuff. And Yeah. So I get to have people's stuff for this little bit of time, and I get somebody else's. And so I get a big variety of stuff which is really I've really enjoyed. And that's probably why I don't collect anything because I get the fix through the job.
• 13:44
  So
• 13:44
  Chad Tragakis: You do. You do. It's great.
• 13:47
  Katie Burke: One thing that I laughed when you were talking about, I thought of, off subject, but you're talking about, like, what's good or bad, and I like I think I missed this article you did, but I just read it, your Mackie article about the Mackie point system, which was really interesting. And I didn't I didn't even think I think I read that in Mackie and kinda just forgot about it.
• 14:07
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah.
• 14:07
  Katie Burke: But that was a really I really liked your article and that and how that worked. But, yeah, he really left out could you explain it real quick? And then, like but I got tickled by it because he left out so many
• 14:16
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. Yeah. Nuances. I think, you know, like so much of of, you know, Mackie, I think he just he laid the foundation and then he which is which is so important. If you don't have the pioneers, right, you can't have the Mhmm.
• 14:30
  You can't have the the people to come later and kinda stand on their shoulders. But I think he he was trying to come up with a system that would would facilitate largely trading, which is what the early collectors did Mhmm. In a way that you could ascribe a value based on a a a point system, as you said. And, you know, if it's Right. He was looking at factors like, you know, rarity and and form and
• 14:57
  Katie Burke: and Condition.
• 14:58
  Chad Tragakis: Condition. But it it to me, it was really just a starting point Yeah. For for a broader discussion. And the other thing that Mackie did not have the benefit of in his day was, you know, what we have now. Fifty, sixty years of auction records and sales records, you know, these transactions that have happened that have really helped to set the stage for, you know, how we collectively as a as a collecting community ascribe value and and and put a, you know, relative merits and and monetary values then on on one decoy versus another.
• 15:39
  But Right. I again, I I I think I am so grateful to, you know, Mackie and and Barbara and McKinney and and and the other pioneers because without them, we would we well, we would be in a a much different place for sure.
• 15:55
  Katie Burke: Well, without them, they took notice. And I feel like a lot of things that were once tools because they were. They were tools. Yes. They were useful items, not artwork.
• 16:09
  I feel like without them taking notice I mean, think of all of them that would have been destroyed. You know? I mean, so many were destroyed.
• 16:17
  Chad Tragakis: They were.
• 16:17
  Katie Burke: But if they hadn't noticed, like, it'd been it'd been even more so.
• 16:21
  Chad Tragakis: A 100%. And I you know, when I think about the stories that I've I've heard, you know, it just as a as a collector and and someone who just appreciates these these relics, these objects, You know, it it's painful to hear these stories about decoys just set out to rot or, you know, used to fill a ditch. I heard a story or, you know, just let yeah. Lot of
• 16:48
  Katie Burke: lot of into the stove ones. Yeah.
• 16:51
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, yeah. Many into the stove. Yeah. It's it's just it's it's not fair. It's not right.
• 16:58
  Katie Burke: Alright. So let's talk about the Chesapeake Bay because that's why you're here. That's your what your expert is. So when I was going through a lot of this stuff and we did an interview, which I do recommend people going back. It was a long time ago.
• 17:11
  I did one with John Sullivan, and he goes into some of this probably some of the topics that we won't get into, but that one also has a lot of information on the Chesapeake Bay. But we're overdue. We haven't done one in a long time. But one of the things when I was reading through some of your articles that I found really interesting so before I came here to DU, I worked at a museum Philadelphia, the Independent Seaport Museum. And they specialize they have a working wooden boat shop there.
• 17:40
  And when I was reading about the Chesapeake Bay, it kind of brought me back. I had to, like, remember a lot. Had I forgotten everything I learned about boats. But from that time, I used to know a lot, but now it's all gone on my head. But I was thinking about that, and when we were there, we would have these wooden boat festivals, and ships would come from Baltimore and the Chesapeake Bay.
• 18:03
  They would come they would go from up north. They would come from the Whaley Museum that's up there. I can't think of it right now. It's I'm losing my track.
• 18:11
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, New Bedford maybe?
• 18:13
  Katie Burke: Yes. Thank you. New Bedford. So Yeah. The Mystic The Mystic Seaport.
• 18:16
  So Yep. They would all come down. And then and when I worked there, we had this warehouse that we had to get rid of, and I had to go in and catalog everything was coming out of the warehouse. And in there were all these, which I wish I had the knowledge I have now Mhmm. Than because there were lots of duck boats in there, like Oh.
• 18:38
  Bushwhack boats and things like that. Because I never really thought about because even when I think about the Chesapeake Bay, I think about historically, I think about the big clubs. Yep. I think about, market hunters. Yep.
• 18:51
  I forget to think about that they hunted off those ships, but it makes sense if you think about their commerce at that time. Like, they were like, the water was such a big part of their lives. There were so many ships that were built in that area.
• 19:05
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Katie Burke: So but I never think about them using them as duck clubs, and and that's so unique to the Chesapeake Bay. So could you lead into why they started using them and then, like, how they used them a little bit. I mean, that's a big question.
• 19:19
  Chad Tragakis: But Yeah. And and at the risk of repeating what maybe has been covered, let me just set the scene a little bit Yeah. About No. Please. You know, the about the Upper Chesapeake.
• 19:29
  So, you know, it was the Chesapeake Bay is America's largest estuary. You know, to me, it's a it's a it's our grandest estuary. I mean, it's a national treasure. At the very top, you've got this 25,000 acres of of shallow water. The sunlight could penetrate it, so you had the perfect mix of sediment and and nutrients that gave rise to this incredible abundance of submerged grasses, these aquatic grasses that were the perfect food for ducks and and waterfowl.
• 20:07
  And so around these, you know, these these vast beds of wild celery, wigeon grass, redhead grass, sago pondweed, you know, you'd have this, you know, half a million, probably more, migratory ducks every season would would visit the the the flats and the and the Upper Bay. And so around the Susquehanna Flats, you had these these these waterfront villages that grew up to really you know, they were harvesting that bounty. Think of Haverde Grace on the Hartford County, Maryland side, and then on the on the Cecil County side, towns like Perryville, Charlestown, Northeast. And so it was you know, that's where those were the centers of of waterfowling, and they were where a lot of those the sporting the sporting yachts that you that you mentioned, these floating clubhouses were were were based, and then lower down in in into the into the bay. But when you think about decoys, I mean, it was a it is a great American cottage industry that really arose in those tiny communities and and elsewhere, but but, you know, it was largely concentrated in those those those small small communities.
• 21:24
  And, you know, I've seen different calculations, but but and we can talk about the sink box. I know I think that's been covered here before, but, you know, a sink box rig might have 200, 300, maybe 500 decoys surrounding it. Then you've got the bushwhack boats. Then you've got shore blinds that that a lot of these clubs had. You're talking about thirty, forty, 50,000 decoys that that that were needed by, you know, the market gutters and then later the wealthy sporting gutters who would flock to the Upper Chesapeake Bay from cities like New York and Philadelphia and Boston and and Washington and Richmond.
• 22:01
  And and so you get this this kind of this this this perfect storm, if you will, where, you know, you've got you've got a a woodworking tradition. You've got these you've got this incredible need for decoys. And then, boom, you know, they're they're they're able to fill that need. And, gosh, I I I think I'm I need to get back to your question on the on the sporting yachts. So so before I talk about the the sporting yachts, though, I think it's important to kinda talk about the clubs.
• 22:30
  So
• 22:31
  Katie Burke: Right.
• 22:31
  Chad Tragakis: As market hunting was continuing, again, you have this emerging upper middle class in our still relatively young country at the time, talking about the, you know, the eighteen forties, eighteen fifties. And you start to have, you know, men of means that have the time and the resources to dedicate to things that they wanna do. And one of those pursuits was was duck hunting. And so you you start to see these these incredible duck shooting clubs that were formed really in a lot of parts of the Chesapeake Bay, but there were just a whole bunch of them in the in the Upper Chesapeake Bay region. And these clubs you know, these men who were coming out of New York and Philadelphia and Boston, they're used to the finer things.
• 23:19
  So these clubs Yeah. Were reflective of that. You know, they had they had extremely comfortable furniture. They were they you know, you'd have oil paintings on the wall and plush carpeting and, you know, well stocked bars with with bourbon and and choice cigars, and, you know, they would hire cooks to come in and cook succulent food. And they brought a little bit of that, you know, those private city clubs mentality.
• 23:43
  They brought that with them to these to these gunning clubs. Some of the gunning clubs, they when they started, they were basically doing, you know, pass shooting, bar shooting. They they would shoot from blinds. And as time went on, the sink box became the favored method for most of those clubs. And so the the sporting yachts were and and that's really sort of a broad catch all term.
• 24:09
  It it it could mean, you know, a fairly Spartan gunning scout that was converted to house a couple of gunners, the guide, and the, you know, the captain, and kinda get out there as a base of operations for your sink box. And then you have some of these just ostentatious grand yachts that that, you know, set the standard for for opulence, and and they really were almost like floating clubhouses. And many of the many of these private clubs, they had yachts associated with them. Sometimes they were owned by the club, and sometimes they were owned by, you know, a member of one of the clubs. And so they would arrange to bring them if they you know, some of them might have been based up in in New York, and they would bring them in for the season.
• 24:58
  In some cases, in in most cases, I think many of them were birthed in Haverdegrace or or over in Cecil County year round, and many of them would have crews that would be paid year round even though they were were really only used for a few months out of the year during during gunning season. But just an incredible tradition. And, you know, we always talk about the time machine. If we could go back in time, I would love to spend a couple nights aboard one of those sporting yachts and Yeah. And have a, you know, have a morning out in the sink box.
• 25:30
  I just think that would be incredible.
• 25:32
  Katie Burke: Yeah. I would there's a lot of the things they talk about, like, what I'd wanna do. And the way they talk about the sink box and if people don't know what a sink box is, it's basically like a a long rectangle that you sink down. It's like a coffin almost. Yeah.
• 25:46
  These big wings that are white, and it puts you at level water level. Like, you were you were one you basically lay down them and you were at the waterline, So they disappear into the water, basically.
• 25:59
  Chad Tragakis: Exactly. And, you know, they called them a floating some of these guys called them a floating coffin because the the box itself is is similar in shape to that. And they had single sink boxes, and then they had doubles where you'd have 200 side by side. And and, again, think about as you described it. Right?
• 26:16
  There you've got this you've got this, you know, ten ten foot by 20 foot contraption with these canvas wings spreading out. You're right out there. You're right among the ducks, and and then you're surrounded by two, three, four, five hundred decoys. And Yeah. That just must have been incredible to see.
• 26:34
  Katie Burke: Yeah. I just would love to see how they react to that. Because that's they always talk about how they just didn't know they were there and stuff. That's just I've always wondered, like, what that would because, obviously, those when did they become illegal in night early is it '19 Yeah.
• 26:47
  Chad Tragakis: 1934 was was yeah. So so it was the the nineteen thirty four, thirty five season. So '34 into the first couple weeks of '35. Yeah.
• 26:57
  Katie Burke: Were they were that's when they were illegal, but were they kind of phasing them out before that, though, in certain areas or no?
• 27:04
  Chad Tragakis: No. In fact, there were there were, there was quite a a lobby to try to overturn some of those regulations. And a lot of the when they took them out of the water, you know, they kept them close. Some of them were kept near the shore or in the or, you know, up near near the boathouse in the hopes that they would overturn those rules and allow them again, but that didn't happen. And that was when a lot of the hunters turned you know, they'd all they had continued, obviously, with with really great locations of shore blinds and and booby blinds, but they would do bushwhacking, you know, using the Mhmm.
• 27:38
  They would skull into the flock and then later body booting, which I guess is as close as you can get out into the, you know, in into the water like like the sink box. But it was that was the end of an era when that legislation was was passed.
• 27:54
  Katie Burke: Yeah. The Chesapeake Bay has the fun. Their market hunters basically brought on most of the legislation. Like, the boar guns, everything. They did all the things that, like, eventually got mixed.
• 28:08
  Chad Tragakis: Yep.
• 28:08
  Katie Burke: Alright. That's a great time for a break. We'll be right back.
• 28:18
  VO: Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan and Bird Dog Whiskey after these messages.
• 28:35
  Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome back. Okay. So we were just talking about the seat box and the floating yachts. When I was reading through everything, and I never really thought about this before, but this volume and size of the rigs they were using, for the sink box and the bush wax, there was so that basically led to a high production of decoys in the area.
• 28:57
  Chad Tragakis: Yes.
• 28:58
  Katie Burke: So how does that volume of decoys compare to other parts of the country? Like, just to give her like, I was just trying to think about that. I never really have thought about that because it also leads into thinking about the style of decoy they were using. Oh. Because they they were for volume.
• 29:14
  Because not every area had this kind of volume.
• 29:17
  Chad Tragakis: No. It it didn't sense? Absolutely. And that's one of the really unique, you know, truly unique things about the Upper Chesapeake Bay. Just the sheer number of decoys made as a direct result of the of the type of hunting or types of hunting that that were done there that required these these huge numbers.
• 29:39
  And, you know, it's a it's a point of pride for the community of Haverde Grace in in Maryland that they are today known as the decoy capital of the world. And I think that name is absolutely fitting because Mhmm. I think more decoys were made in the town of Haverde Grace than anywhere else ever. And Yeah. You know, and maybe a lot of places combined.
• 30:01
  I mean, we're talking about, you know, just, you know, gosh, hundreds of thousands of decoys probably go going going, you know, back to to the beginning. And you asked about the style, and and, yes, I think that's a, you know, that's a a really important important point. Like anything, you know, you you get trial and error. So these these men were were trying to figure out, alright. There's this huge demand.
• 30:23
  How can I make a decoy that I can make efficiently and sell profitably, and it will hold up well? And, you know, I'll get that return business from that guide or that club or that gunner. And, you know, when you think about the the earliest Susquehanna Flats decoys from Upper Chesapeake, they probably all started out very, very similar in terms of their size, style, construction, largely made from white pine. And they had they had rounded bottoms, which worked really well on the the the short choppy waves that that they would encounter on the Susquehanna Flats. But, you know, just as as language sometimes migrates into into dialects and accents, I think they they they there emerged two styles of Upper Chesapeake Bay decoys.
• 31:17
  One in Haverdegrace, which is called the Haverdegrace or Hartford County style, and the other in Cecil County, which is called either the the Cecil County or the Northeast River style. Northeast River being the, you know, one of the primary rivers there that that that flows into the Susquehanna Flats. And, you know, it it it it they're still similar, but there are some really important distinctions. And Okay. It it's largely in the tails.
• 31:44
  The the Hartford or Haverdegray style have these these sweep a flowing sweep to the tail that kinda sweeps up, and the Cecil County style has the paddle tail. And Okay. And then the Cecil County birds have a little neck shelf that the head rests on. But, you know, they're they're with those exceptions, and, of course, there are exceptions to to to to to those rules of thumb. But, again, they're solid body decoys, meaty breasts, smooth round bottoms to, you know, to to to ride the the the waves there.
• 32:18
  And it it was really you know, there were there were a few makers of note who we still revere to this day. And and on the Havert D'Gray side, it was John Holly, who we we affectionately refer to as daddy. John, daddy, Holly. He had a son, James, who became who who created these incredibly beautiful sculptural streamlined decoys. So a little a little different sort of an evolution from his father.
• 32:47
  And then r Madison Mitchell was the iconic baker of Haverde Grace, and it's his style that is still in large use today, you know, even all these years later, a hundred years later. And on the Cecil County side, it was John Graham. It was Ben Dye, and then a generation after them, William Hevron, who, you know, created what I think of as the just the perfect Cecil County style decoy. And it's interesting because Mitchell, he actually worked with Sam Barnes, who was another maker, who was a a a contemporary of Jim Holly. But Mitchell always said that the decoy that he based his style on was a John Daddy Holly model.
• 33:36
  And that was that was the basis of of the style that, again, it it just persists to this day because it is it is such a perfect it is a perfect shape. Hunters say, you know, it's easy to wrap the anchor cord. It's they they it they just feel right in your hand, and they just they work so well.
• 33:58
  Katie Burke: Yeah. And then and they're not overly big. They're they're on the, I'd say, medium, small side as decoys go. Like, they're that they're they're shorter in the body than some. With that volume, because that means you're also getting a lot more stiller around.
• 34:14
  Right? Like, you they're they're easier. Like, decoy like, makers like Mitchell who made so many, like, you can there there are more still around.
• 34:23
  Chad Tragakis: They are out there.
• 34:23
  Katie Burke: Absolutely. So what is that volume and this is honestly, I'm just curious. I don't know if our audience is curious, but I'm curious. What does that volume how does that affect, like, their market price now versus, like, other areas?
• 34:39
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. It it it's a great question, and it's interesting. I mean, sometimes when you have so few of something, it's almost like it there's no market for it.
• 34:48
  Katie Burke: So Right.
• 34:49
  Chad Tragakis: Ventral decoys are incredibly popular among collectors in part because he made so many, and he made so many species, and he carved for such a long time that, you know, collectors enjoy putting together a a representative collection. Some have you know, a few collectors have have put together, you know, almost complete collections of everything he made. And so it's it's it's interesting. It's a it's and when you have a lot of something, it does bring the price down, which makes it accessible for, you know, for newer collectors. And, you know, his decoys are beautiful.
• 35:26
  They're they're stylish. They're functional. You know, a lot of, you know, collectors will be familiar with Lem Ward, one of the famous Ward brothers of Crisfield, Maryland.
• 35:35
  Katie Burke: Mhmm.
• 35:35
  Chad Tragakis: You know, he was sort of the the high watermark for the decoy as as folk sculpture. And yet it was Lem Ward who said that Mitchell made the best canvas back on the Chesapeake Bay. So even even Lem Ward recognized greatness when he saw it.
• 35:52
  Katie Burke: Oh, yeah. And there's such a yeah. That's something I mean, we don't need to get into that, but, like, when you just go over towards the shore a little bit, the decoy style completely changes. Yes. When you go towards, you know, where the Ward brothers were and farther into Virginia, and it's a whole another style completely.
• 36:09
  Whole another style. Up to New Jersey. Yep. Yeah. And New Jersey is the same way.
• 36:14
  Exactly. Places are all within, you know, an hour or two of each other. So they're very close. Okay. This is more of my question.
• 36:22
  So I guess what I really want instead of, like, walking us from like, ask instead of walking us from, like, the Holly's and the Mitchell's and on, I think the thing I find most interesting about that style and that area is how they really did not change it. Like, there are some, like, new, like, contemporaries that we have in the area, but for the most part, they kinda really stuck to the style. Does that make sense?
• 36:49
  Chad Tragakis: It does, and you're right. You're right. Yeah. And, you know, and
• 36:53
  Katie Burke: I to think that space.
• 36:55
  Chad Tragakis: It is. And and we're we're really talking about the Haverdegree style Mhmm. More than anything. And I you know, tradition is a powerful thing.
• 37:06
  Katie Burke: Yeah.
• 37:06
  Chad Tragakis: And the makers who who are working today, these are these are people that learned from, you know, Jim Pierce and captain Harry Jobes and and Charlie Joiner. And those men in turn learned from Mitchell. Mitchell apprenticed with Sam Barnes, inspired by the Holly family. So you see this it's it's this it's this legacy that's handed down. And I think a lot of the carvers working today, they they have incredible respect for that style and the tradition that it represents.
• 37:43
  It's it and, again, I I go back to that Lem Ward quote. You know? Why why mess with something that is working beautifully? Yeah. And and and you're right in that the tradition also persists on the Cecil County side.
• 37:59
  I think people look to John Graham and and Hevron as as sort of the, you know, the the the makers that that continue to inspire many of the many of the carvers working in Cecil County today, and they wanna carry on that tradition of the paddle tail and the neck shelf and and, you know, rigging them in in similar ways and using white pine in the in the old tradition. So I think tradition coupled with great design is probably are probably the big factors in why the those styles persist all these years later.
• 38:40
  Katie Burke: Okay. So that brings me another question. And I was wondering if it's also just the culture of that area because, like, with Havana Grace too, like, they still bod they still do body booting, which I have no idea why anyone would want to do that. I'm friends with Charles Jobes. I know he does it.
• 38:56
  They say it's fun. I can't imagine it being any fun. Like but I'm a spoiled Mississippi girl who hunts in, you know, 40 degree weather in sunshine. So, but, yeah, I I is it you're from that you live in that area from there. Is that area in particular, like, do they culturally hold on to tradition more?
• 39:17
  Chad Tragakis: You know, I think I think I think they do. And and, again, you're talking about I mean, the Job's family, you know Yes. They they learned from their dad, the the boys who are still working today and still turning out, you know, incredible, beautiful quality decoys, many of which get hunted each year. You know, a lot probably most go to collectors, but a whole bunch get hunted every year. And, you know, I've talked to decoy makers, and they they love that.
• 39:48
  They love to know that the that the that the decoys that they are creating with, you know, with their with their blood and and sweat and toil are actually used for their intended purpose. And that speaks volumes, just the the fact that you've got that that tradition today. And they, you know, they they learned from their dad. Their dad learned from mister Mitchell. Mister Mitchell, again, worked with with Sam Barnes, but was inspired and, you know, claimed his inspiration for that style came from a daddy Holly canvas back.
• 40:21
  So I think it runs pretty deep. And, again, you're you're talking about men who are still in or near the town that they grew up in. So I I think, again, I think that tradition is rooted pretty deeply.
• 40:36
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That's I just think about that with especially with the contemporary carvers you have there. And whereas if you look around, a lot of the other contemporary carvers have, you know, moved from where they're from or moved around. They play with different styles. But that area in particular, they've it's so rooted in what they do.
• 40:56
  It's very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's not really like that anywhere else. Okay.
• 41:01
  So I would love to talk to you about because I know you spent a lot of time with Charlie Joyner and for your article and stuff, and I just would love, like, to let the listeners kinda, you know, us talk about him and kinda tell his impact and things and what your time, like, was learning from him.
• 41:18
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, I I would love to do that. He was a gem of a man. And if you ask anybody that that knew him or spent any time with him, they will tell you the same thing. They you know, we often say they don't make them like that anymore. And Yeah.
• 41:34
  Goodness gracious. They don't make them like like mister Joyner anymore. Charlie was such a a special man. He was born in 1921, and so he was really born at a time when, you know, he had one foot in in the the older traditions and and a foot in the new camp and the new traditions. And so I think he he, like a few others from around that time, had a really, really special immersion in in this.
• 42:08
  And he grew up in a in a little in a in a waterfront community called Betterton. And he later moved to to Chestertown, and that's where I knew him and met him and and spent time with him in his workshop when I was getting ready to to to put the story together. And what's what's really neat about Charlie Joiner is, you know, he started off working for mister Mitchell. And he learned the the the trade. He learned the craft from Madison Mitchell.
• 42:42
  He and the story of how they met is is kind of fun. He he was was getting ready to to to paint. Well, he wanted a hunt and he wanted to use silhouette decoys. And Okay. So he he he he met mister Mitchell and and said, well, you know, how how much how much would it, you know, cost for me to for for me to buy these from you or or to have you paint them?
• 43:08
  And and he told him and and he said, well, I I can't afford that. So he he told him to go down to, you know, the hardware store, get some paint, come back, and he set him up and and and, you know, he painted a couple of these silhouettes and and and then he painted the rest of them, and that really started a a lifelong friendship between the two. There are just some beautiful things. So Charlie, he, during World War two, served in the navy in the construction battalion, the Seabee's. He was in the in the Pacific Theater.
• 43:46
  He was working on building runways and, you know, the the the the the air bases where they could land planes to stage, you know, the next part of the battle. So when he got back, he went to see mister Joyner, and mister Joyner said, you know, go go look up in the go go look over here in the shed. And and he had put together for him a rig of 200 decoys that he had you know, the these were mostly, you know, birds that he had repaired, refurbished, repainted, and he had them waiting for Charlie when he got back from from the war for his hunting rig. I I mean, just a special special relationship between
• 44:29
  Katie Burke: That's really neat.
• 44:30
  Chad Tragakis: Between the two guys. And the other thing I love about Charlie Joyner, which is unique, is, you know, he got that grounding in the Haverdegray style from mister Mitchell. But in the, you know, in the in the sixties, he had heard about the Ward brothers. And so Right. He went down to Chris Field and met Lamb and Steve Ward, and he formed just another beautiful relationship, a friendship that lasted, you know, the rest of their lives with the with the the two brothers.
• 45:01
  And Yeah. He would watch them. And and so when you look at a Charlie Joyner decoy, it's really neat because you sometimes see a traditional Haverdegray style in both the the body and the paint. Sometimes you'll see a Crisfield style paint pattern on a Haverdegray style body, vice versa. It's just he was able to kinda take the best of those two experiences from the very top and the very bottom of the bay and bring them back to his shop and and just create some some amazing treasures.
• 45:35
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. It made me think I interviewed Oliver Toots Lawson, and he was in their shop too. So I wonder
• 45:42
  Chad Tragakis: Oh, a great guy.
• 45:44
  Katie Burke: Knew each other. Yeah.
• 45:45
  Chad Tragakis: I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. And oh, yeah. Toots is one of the best.
• 45:49
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That was a really fun interview. I could've sat there and listened to him all day. He has so many stories about the Ward brothers. Alright.
• 45:58
  Before we leave, is there anything that I haven't mentioned? I think there's anything I've forgotten to talk about.
• 46:04
  Chad Tragakis: Oh gosh. I I we I could
• 46:06
  Katie Burke: I mean, a million things.
• 46:07
  Chad Tragakis: Yeah. So many good things. I let me just share one more fun Charlie Joyner and Mitchell story.
• 46:12
  Katie Burke: Okay.
• 46:13
  Chad Tragakis: Just to yeah. Because it this is I love this one. So mister Mitchell was a stickler for quality. You know? It's even though he had a lot of people working for him, it was his name on the door.
• 46:25
  It was his name on the decoy. So it had to be it had to be perfect every time. And he would always, you know, talk about, hey. This head that you carved, it's not quite right. You need to take a little more off here.
• 46:39
  Leave a little more here. And so one day, Charlie Joyner had heard this from mister Mitchell several, times that week. So he was bringing some heads over to Mitchell, and he took some that he had seen mister Mitchell himself carving earlier that day. And he gave it to mister Mitchell, and mister Mitchell starts to pick it apart. Well, you should have done a little bit more here.
• 47:01
  And then Charlie says, well, this is one you made, sir. So and and Charlie said that that he saw mister Mitchell turn his head away, and he thinks he was probably laughing but didn't wanna do it in front of Charlie. So I I that's one of my favorite stories, and it just it it it almost puts you in the shock with them both when it happened when when to hear him tell it, but just a special guy Yeah. And so many great stories.
• 47:27
  Katie Burke: That's great. That's probably my favorite thing about that your area of, like, when it comes to decoy carving is the shop culture, like, how they would go to each other's shops and spend time in each other. And they to this day, it's still the same way, and it's such a special tradition that's had up there. I mean, not just but not just in like, Chester Bay, like, Heavour Grace area, but all the way up in New Jersey and on the Virginia Shore
• 47:56
  Chad Tragakis: It is.
• 47:56
  Katie Burke: That tradition of the shop.
• 47:58
  Chad Tragakis: It it the exactly. And the sharing, the collaboration, the camaraderie, the the sense of passing it down, passing the traditions and the and the knowledge from one generation to the next. I imagine that that's exactly how it was when daddy Holly was doing the same thing in his shop in Hever To Grace to his, you know, to the to those working with him and his sons. You you know, it it's happening today. And and that's that's a that would be a great thing to end on too, Katie.
• 48:31
  So that's a I I I love that you honed in on that.
• 48:33
  Katie Burke: Yeah. And if people don't know this, you can visit them. They will, like, let you visit them if you are interested in decoys. I have gone to a mini of a shop. Absolutely.
• 48:45
  Chad Tragakis: Go up and visit the makers.
• 48:46
  Katie Burke: Show it off.
• 48:47
  Chad Tragakis: Yep. Buy a decoy directly from them, and it it there's there's no better souvenir from your trip to Havre De Grace or over in Cecil County than to visit a carver. Buy one of their decoys and and listen to some of the stories while you're there. You're seeing history. You're seeing tradition.
• 49:05
  You're you're seeing that legacy play out, and it's happening now. It's happening, you know, every day up there, and you can be a part of it. So I encourage everybody to learn about it, dive in, read, build that library, get Decoy Magazine, and then buy that decoy and and join an incredible community and an amazing hobby.
• 49:26
  Katie Burke: And go to a show.
• 49:27
  Chad Tragakis: Go to a show.
• 49:29
  Katie Burke: Well, Chad, this is great. Thank you so much for doing this.
• 49:32
  Chad Tragakis: Katie, thank you so much for having me, and I really appreciate it.
• 49:36
  Katie Burke: Alright. Well, thank you to our guest, Chad. Thanks to our producer, Chris Isaac, and thanks to you, our listener, for wetlands and waterfowl conservation.
• 49:46
  VO: Thank you for listening to the DU Podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Also proudly sponsored by Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails. Whether you're winding down with your best friend or celebrating with your favorite crew, Bird Dog brings award winning flavor to every moment. Enjoy responsibly. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the show and visit ducks.org/dupodcast. Opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect those of Ducks Unlimited. Until next time, stay tuned to the Ducks.