Latest / Pop of Culture / S03 E24 - We Have High-Octane Research Data

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S03 E24 - We Have High-Octane Research Data · Pop of Culture

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[Michelle Kinsey] This week on Pop of Culture,
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Hoosier authors who traveled wide...
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[Jill Blocker] And then I quit my job,
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moved to France, then wrote my first novel.
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[Keith Roysdon] Everything I put into the small town I
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knew about the real life small town my parents were from.
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[Michelle] Are headed back to East Central Indiana.
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[Luke Jones] We'll also look at what the data
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says about equity in dance.
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[Michelle] And we'll go behind the song.
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[Luke] That and more is coming up.
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1:13
[Michelle] From Indiana Public Radio,
1:16
this is Pop of Culture.
1:18
I'm Michelle Kinsey.
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[Luke] And I'm Luke Jones.
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Coming up, we learn about an organization promoting
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gender equity in dance through data.
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We'll find out exactly what that
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means in about 15 minutes.
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[Michelle] Good, 'cause I'm a little confused.
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But first, we have two Hoosier authors
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with strong Indiana roots.
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Keith Roysden and Jill Blocker.
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Welcome to both of you.
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[Keith] Thank you so much for having us.
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[Jill] For having us.
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[Michelle] Keith now lives in Tennessee,
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and Jill calls Switzerland home.
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But both of you will be coming back to
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Muncie for an author event in July.
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Keith, do you want to tell us
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a little bit about the event coming up?
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[Keith] We have, I think,
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July 14 and a July 15 talk and signing.
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I believe the first one is at
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the E. B. And Bertha C. Ball Center.
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And the second one is at Carnegie Library downtown.
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And in the afternoons of those days,
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the first of those days,
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we have an event at
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Ink Drickers Anonymous bookstore downtown.
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[Michelle] Yeah.
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[Keith] And on the second day,
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we have an event at and these are both 3:00 P.M. events.
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On the second day, we have an event at Aw Yeah Comics.
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[Michelle] Oh, nice. Making the most of your time back in Muncie.
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[Keith] Yeah. Yeah. It's really kind of It's kind
2:43
of loaded with lots of activity.
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[Michelle] Yeah, yeah.
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Well, let's get to those Indiana roots.
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Full transparency.
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I believe we all have a newspaper in common, am I right?
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[Keith] We really do. We really do.
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[Michelle] We all spent some time at
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the Star Press newspaper in Muncie.
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For each of you, when did you decide to
3:04
move from journalism to more novel writing,
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creative writing?
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[Jill] Oh, man.
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So I studied journalism at Ball State.
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I was a '09 grad,
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and looking forward to going back to Ball State for sure.
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It was a really strong foundation.
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I did my internship at the Muncie Star Press.
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Keith, at the time was my editor.
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So he walked me through how to find, you know,
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all the good stuff in the police reports
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and get texts that I needed.
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I worked shortly for a TV news station.
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And then from there, I moved to Switzerland.
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And in Switzerland, I
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switched my careers because of the language,
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so I wasn't able to be a reporter in English.
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And I went into marketing,
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and then after that, I realized, you know what?
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I'm a writer. Let's write.
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And then I quit my job, moved to France,
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then wrote my first novel.
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[Michelle] Wow. That's a great story.
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[Keith] I know. I know.
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I'm not gonna bother to
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mention I wrote a book in Tennessee.
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After after hearing, you know,
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"Oh, I moved to France and read a novel."
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Oh, yeah. You won.
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You won.
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[Jill] It's the dream.
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Yeah.
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[Michelle] I mean, that is pretty cool.
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Jill, that is pretty cool.
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Keith, tell us about kind of your journey from newspaper,
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which was how long were you in
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the newspaper business more than 30 years,
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right?
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[Keith] Oh, yeah.
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I started I started writing freelance for
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what was then the Muncie Evening Press
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when I was still in high school,
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and started full-time in
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1984 after having gone to Ball State. And
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covered a variety of
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things for years and years and years from
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entertainment to politics and government
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and a lot of filling crime shifts and court shifts.
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And took a buyout that began in January 2019.
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[Michelle] Mm hm.
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[Keith] I've continued to write.
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I write for a bunch of sites,
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and my two books now,
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one published, self-published
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a couple of years ago with Jill's editing help.
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We're publishing the new one, "Seven Angels" through
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our company that's called
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Constelate Creative/Costellate Publishing.
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[Michelle] Mm hmm.
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[Keith] The the whole as they say, the book journey.
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The book journey has been really fascinating
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because we decided probably ill
5:35
advisedly for our peace of mind and our time
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to act as kind of imprint,
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you know, imprint, indie publishers of our own.
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So we're constantly talking to other authors about
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the possibility of publishing your manuscript.
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And it's a lot of fun,
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but it's a very different world.
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[Michelle] Absolutely. So did you stay in touch, Jill,
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from your time at
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The Star Press before you started, you know,
6:02
bopping around all over the world,
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did you stay in touch with Keith or
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how did this kind of partnership,
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this author relationship continue?
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[Jill] Yeah, I don't remember exactly
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how we stayed in touch all those years.
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I mean, it's probably almost been like almost 20 years.
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[Michelle] Yeah.
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[Jill] But I think Facebook for a while,
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kind of checking in with each other back and forth.
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And then I published my first novel,
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which is a literary historical fiction novel
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set in Zurich during World War I
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I published that in
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German traditionally with a Swiss publisher.
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[Michelle] Oh.
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[Jill] And once that came out,
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I was able to retain
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the English rights, and I was looking for
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like an agent and a publishing path in
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the US to publish the English version.
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And I ended up self-publishing it,
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which allowed me to really take
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full control over the whole process.
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And then when Keith was talking about,
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you know, I've been trying to find an agent.
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I don't know what to do with my book, I said,
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"Hey, let's publish it."
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And yeah, from that journey with his first book,
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which is called "That October,"
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we kind of opened it up to other authors,
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and we're working through this publishing in print now.
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[Michelle] I love that. I'm assuming when
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you go from journalism to more,
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you know, novel writing, fiction writing,
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I mean, there's got to be a pretty big learning curve.
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I mean, there's a big difference
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between, you know, doing, you know,
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a story on deadline that maybe eight
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or nine paragraphs to a 200-page novel.
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Can you talk a little bit
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about kind of the writing process for each of you?
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[Jill] For me, it was actually really challenging
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writing in a journalism style,
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everything is very factual.
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Everything, you know, is source-based.
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So writing historical fiction was
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kind of my entryway into
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novel writing because I was really fact-based,
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and I was able to kind of make
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up conversations that maybe didn't happen,
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but would likely happen based on the time.
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And then, yeah, from there,
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I was able to become a little more
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creative in the fiction writing,
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but it was a big transition.
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[Michelle] Yeah. Keith, what about you?
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[Keith] When I started writing in earnest,
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these novels, including "Seven Angels,"
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I found two big hurdles.
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One of them was getting used to the idea of you had near
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unlimited words that you
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could you didn't have to be terse,
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you didn't have to make anything,
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you know, 12 inches long.
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And the other was you needed to put I needed
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to put more emotion into my stories.
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People that I wrote articles about,
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they may have very emotional stories,
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but, you know, you made things fairly straightforward.
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And with books, you can really indulge
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that thing where people
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feel betrayed and they say they feel betrayed.
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And people feel overwhelmed and
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scared and all those emotions that
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I was able to exercise and put on the page,
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and it was a great way
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to find a new kind of writing from newspaper writing.
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[Michelle] Yeah, it really seems like you're just unlocking
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another part of your creative brain, right?
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And that sounds really exciting.
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[Keith] Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
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[Michelle] Yeah. Well, let's
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talk about your new stuff, both of you.
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Jill's new young adult novel is "Happily After Ever. "
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Tell us a little bit about this book, Jill.
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[Jill] Yeah, "Happily After Ever."
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It's a little spin on the classic fairy tale.
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So it's a young adult,
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a YA new adult crossover,
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which is kind of like a new-ish genre
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that's becoming popular for 18 to 30-year-olds.
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So it's really kind of focused on, like,
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telling the traditional fairytale story,
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but in a more realistic kind of way.
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You know, not everything ends
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with the happily ever after,
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but that doesn't mean that your
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journey's not a fairy tale.
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Um, so, yeah, it's the story of a young woman, a writer,
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a journalist who is traveling around the world
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for love and have to eventually,
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like, decide to choose herself throughout the process.
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And there's some hometown roots in there, too.
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So there's some Indiana connections, for sure,
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especially with the Swiss and Indiana,
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like, small town vibe.
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I come from a small town outside of Berne, Indiana.
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So connection to the small town roots
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is in the story, as well.
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[Michelle] Oh, that's awesome. And, Keith,
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tell us about your new thriller.
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[Keith] So I was still in Indiana and had
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no plans to move to Tennessee when I wrote "Seven Angels."
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But we had family down here,
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and my parents had come from Tennessee.
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And I'd read so much about
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the little town in Tennessee where my parents were from,
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and I'd visited it many times.
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And it was a town that was really in dire shape.
10:57
An opioid epidemic and loss
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of jobs and the factories closed,
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and people were really desperate.
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So I thought, well, that's
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a good starting point for a story about a young woman who
11:11
comes she's working for
11:13
the prosecutor's office in
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Knoxville, and she moves back to her little town,
11:18
and she gets thrust into this situation that involves
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opioid addiction and
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a doctor's pushing pills and white supremacists.
11:29
And again, writing this in 2019. I'm glad this
11:34
turned out the way that it did, because
11:36
some of the main conflict is about
11:39
a Russian human trafficker who
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is pursuing a 12-year-old girl from Ukraine.
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[Michelle] Wow.
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[Jill] So it was written slightly
11:50
before everything blew up
11:52
several years ago about Russia and Ukraine.
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And there is at least one character,
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two characters from my Muncie
12:01
set of characters that are in the book, too.
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So it gave me a chance to write about a small town,
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and the response from people has been really gratifying.
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Everything I put into the small town,
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I knew about the real-life small town. My parents were from
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[Michelle] Yeah. I think I think it's really
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interesting that both of
12:21
you have these really wonderful nuggets
12:24
from your time in Indiana.
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Both of the books, though, very, very, very different.
12:30
What do you hope readers sit with after
12:33
they finish "Seven Angels" and "Happily After Ever?"
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[Jill] I think kind of the mission behind our imprint,
12:40
Constellate Publishing is that
12:42
we are just having, you know,
12:45
conversations around
12:46
broader topics that aren't necessarily,
12:49
like, in the public, like discourse.
12:53
So with Keith talking about
12:55
topics like human trafficking and, you know,
13:00
small town drug use and me on the
13:03
like, a little bit more fairy tale side,
13:05
but still kind of questioning, like,
13:07
modern society and how we're thinking
13:08
about what we're, you know,
13:11
teaching our young girls and
13:12
how we expect women to grow up into,
13:14
like, a strict society
13:16
of being a wife and
13:17
being a stay-at-home mom and stuff like that.
13:19
So that's what we're trying to do, I think,
13:21
with our publishing is opening
13:22
up conversations and opening it
13:24
up to writers who are kind of allowing people to,
13:27
like, a little think more critically
13:29
about different topics. Um,
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yeah, what do you think, Keith?
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[Keith] Well, I think one of the things that I
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like the most about "Happily
13:37
After Ever" is that the expectation
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that especially young women,
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but young men, too, you have
13:48
this fairy tale life or you're doing something wrong.
13:51
You know? And that's
13:53
totally not a good way to look at it.
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And it puts so much expectation on young people.
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And one of my favorite things
14:01
about Jill's book is that it is very
14:05
much a person making
14:08
their way and making mistakes and deciding,
14:13
"Okay, this isn't necessarily
14:16
how I think things should always go.
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And what can I do to improve that and to find my way."
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And that's really what,
14:27
to me, a lot of the point of the book is.
14:30
[Michelle] Oh, I love that.
14:32
Well, congratulations to both of
14:34
you on all of your success,
14:36
and we look forward to seeing you in
14:39
July when you come back home to Muncie.
14:42
[Keith] We're looking forward to it.
14:43
[Jill] Thanks so much.
14:44
Yeah, we're looking forward to seeing you in Muncie.
14:46
Thank you.
14:46
[Michelle] Jill Blocker and Keith Roysdon are both authors.
14:50
They'll be back in Muncie in July.
15:03
[Luke] If I said,
15:04
women are underrepresented in
15:07
administrative roles and arts organizations,
15:09
you'd probably believe me.
15:11
But what does the data say?
15:13
Or co-host Kara DuQuett spoke with
15:15
two leaders at the Dance Data Project.
15:18
[Elizabeth "Liza" Yntema] Elizabeth Yntema,
15:20
President and Founder of Dance Data Project.
15:22
I go by Liza.
15:23
[Nancy Dobbs Owen] Hi, I'm Nancy Dobbs Owen.
15:25
I am the External Communications Lead
15:27
for Dance Data Project.
15:29
[Luke] And she started by asking them,
15:31
What is the project?
15:33
[Liza] Dance Data Project is a not-
15:36
for-profit that I started in 2015,
15:39
and we use data to advocate for
15:42
women in dance and the performing arts generally.
15:46
But as part of that,
15:47
we also advocate for transparency, best practices,
15:53
and educating the field.
15:55
And that could be artists,
15:58
that could be dance critics or,
16:01
you know, performing arts critics.
16:03
It can be parents of dancers.
16:06
It could be audience members,
16:08
and it can, in particular, be donors.
16:10
So they get a sense of what's going on with the money.
16:13
[Kara] I think that's something we expect
16:15
in this day and age. I certainly do.
16:18
[Nancy] Yeah, I think it's really important
16:20
that not only artistic directors,
16:22
but executive directors, board members,
16:25
also choreographers coming in,
16:27
dancers in the room understand how
16:29
a organization runs and
16:32
where the money comes from, where it's going,
16:34
and where it's allocated, because
16:36
the more transparency there
16:37
is for everyone in the organization,
16:40
the cleaner it's going to run.
16:42
[Kara] I completely agree. And then there's not room
16:44
for people to make up their own narratives when,
16:47
you know, actually, what's going on
16:49
is out there for everyone to know.
16:51
Will you talk a little bit about some of
16:54
the inequities in the field of dance and what they are?
16:57
And probably more specifically the areas
17:00
of dance that you've researched the most,
17:03
which I believe is ballet,
17:06
classical ballet, specifically, because I think a lot of
17:10
people might see that as a field dominated by women.
17:14
[Liza] Uh huh. Exactly.
17:16
I'm going to do very broad brush
17:19
and start with the big picture.
17:22
We have produced 72 publicly available research studies
17:27
since February of 2019.
17:29
[Kara] Wow.
17:31
[Liza] I firmly believe that those who most need
17:34
this information are the least able to afford it.
17:37
So we are here to serve the community,
17:40
and I think a lot of folks in the performing arts have
17:43
forgotten that under the IRS statutes,
17:46
it's not about my artistic vision,
17:49
my this, my that or excellence, etcetera.
17:51
We are here to make the community better.
17:54
And I'm just going to put it in really simple terms.
17:57
When you go to "The Nutcracker" or "Giselle" or whatever,
18:02
most people don't realize that
18:04
about 40% of the women that you see dancing on
18:08
the stage who are presenting as professional are
18:11
very likely to either not be paid a salary,
18:14
maybe they get a stipend,
18:15
or they may actually be
18:17
paying for the privilege of being there.
18:20
[Kara] Wow. Yeah.
18:22
[Liza] And I'll let Nancy pick it up.
18:24
[Nancy] Right. So DDP looks at companies in the United States.
18:29
We look at companies globally.
18:30
We look at who's choreographing the pieces,
18:33
who is setting the pieces,
18:34
who is teaching the students, and rehearsing the ballets.
18:39
And that's number one.
18:41
Number two is we look at the way that the balance
18:44
of gender shifts as the power increases.
18:48
So you start in an organization that
18:51
has 70% of the people
18:53
in the organization are women, right?
18:55
And the students are girls and
18:58
the teachers in the lower levels are women.
19:00
And then as you move up,
19:02
the teachers suddenly start shifting and being
19:04
men and the people leading
19:07
the organization are male and the people
19:09
setting the ballets or
19:10
choreographing the ballets or male,
19:12
and it actually shifts to 70% men,
19:15
30% women, once you move into the leadership positions.
19:18
These are very broad numbers.
19:20
Obviously, they shift slightly every year.
19:23
But what we see as a community and
19:27
what we see as a country is
19:29
very different from what's
19:30
actually happening on the ground.
19:31
Right?
19:32
[Kara] So you're using
19:34
quantitative measurement to persuade
19:37
people as to the problems that are going on.
19:40
How do you feel like that's going to
19:41
work in bridging some of
19:43
these inequities as opposed
19:45
to qualitative data. You know what I mean?
19:47
Like.
19:48
[Liza] I am probably ridiculously optimistic.
19:51
I do believe that when the data is out there,
19:56
change is inevitable.
19:59
It won't happen right away.
20:01
And I mean, literally,
20:03
we came out with three reports and somebody said,
20:05
Well, what change have you seen?
20:07
And I was like, "Okay, come on, girl.
20:09
Deep breath." It was just like,
20:10
"Well, this stuff takes a while."
20:13
What we have seen is that people are
20:15
not denying there's a problem anymore.
20:18
We also don't have to solve all the problems ourselves,
20:21
and I'll let Nancy jump in.
20:23
People keep wanting us to expand our mission.
20:25
And again, we work
20:27
on less than a quarter of $1 million a year.
20:29
We provide people the ammunition,
20:31
but as Nancy sort of alluded to earlier,
20:34
It's on donors. It's on the press.
20:37
Thank you again for this interview.
20:39
It is on the community in
20:40
general to take our information and,
20:44
you know, move things along.
20:46
We can't do it all. I'll let Nancy come in.
20:48
[Kara] We have to collaborate, for sure.
20:50
[Liza] Amen.
20:50
[Kara] So go ahead, Nancy.
20:53
[Nancy] Yeah. I think what's really
20:55
interesting is that you brought up quantitative data,
20:58
and how does that change things?
20:59
Quantitative data does not change things on its own.
21:02
It is a great base then to do a qualitative study.
21:05
But if you do the qualitative study first,
21:08
it can be really easily
21:09
dismissed as, well, that was your experience.
21:11
That was your feelings.
21:13
We're so sorry you feel that way,
21:14
and I'm sure that that is true.
21:16
But if you then back that up with, Hey, here's the data.
21:19
So my experience is not just my experience.
21:22
This qualitative study is
21:25
illustrating the effects of this data,
21:27
not creating the story.
21:30
Sure, we should be able to make change by saying, Hey,
21:32
I want my chance, too, but
21:34
all of these systems are very entrenched.
21:37
So the more that you can say, Hey,
21:38
this is just fact.
21:40
There are no feeling involved in this whatsoever
21:43
is going to be a much stronger tool to move forward with.
21:46
[Liza] We want to show folks that while,
21:49
yes, you may love being an artist, this is a job.
21:53
It should be compensated.
21:55
[Kara] Yes.
21:55
[Liza] This is a work environment.
21:57
It should not be toxic.
21:59
You should not be able to drag a dancer around
22:02
by the hair to keep
22:04
them rehearsing until two in the morning.
22:06
And I think it's really important to remind everybody,
22:10
these are professionals or
22:12
people who want to be professionals,
22:14
and they need to be, they
22:16
need to be treated with dignity.
22:17
And again, if you're sitting in
22:19
the audience and seeing the pretty thing happening,
22:22
it's easy to forget
22:24
that these folks have spent years training and
22:28
we also believe that it's entirely possible to bring
22:31
some workplace safeguards for
22:34
not a lot of money into dance,
22:36
into theater, etcetera.
22:38
[Kara] Well, you must at this time.
22:40
You know, I mean, that's always been the case,
22:43
but the artistic trope of the artist
22:46
and the fact that they don't have a professional role
22:49
or they don't need to be compensated what you started
22:52
this interview with is it's
22:54
a privilege just to be there, you know?
22:56
That's crazy. And I want to know what's next for you all?
23:00
What are you looking forward to as things change?
23:04
[Liza] Well, we think, I think that some of
23:07
the most exciting dynamic stuff in
23:09
dance in performing arts
23:12
generally is not necessarily in New York.
23:14
Or San Francisco, or Chicago.
23:16
There is so much richness.
23:18
There are so many exciting things going on.
23:21
We think there's the arts fabric,
23:24
the cultural fabric, which is going to keep us united.
23:27
Small D, democracy as
23:30
a nation takes place in smaller cities.
23:33
The work is incredible.
23:34
The level of training is incredible.
23:37
You said collaboration.
23:38
You find far more collaboration in smaller towns.
23:41
We were just in Charlottesville.
23:43
Everybody talks to everybody
23:44
because they can't survive otherwise.
23:46
So, passed data, what is DDP doing?
23:49
I will let Nancy take over because
23:51
she's sort of architecting this. Go, Nancy.
23:53
[Nancy] So we have a brand
23:55
new digital exchange that we are rolling out.
23:59
We are in the beta testing right now,
24:02
and we will be rolling it out completely in September.
24:05
And this is basically an interactive map plus a database
24:09
of every single artist
24:11
who registers for it behind the scenes.
24:14
So we're not talking dancers,
24:16
performers, but we are talking directors, choreographers,
24:19
lighting designers, musicians,
24:20
intimacy coordinators, stylists,
24:23
reperturs, dramaturgs, all of the people
24:25
who put productions on the stage.
24:29
And what individuals who are hiring can do is put in
24:32
their city and then put a radius
24:34
out of how far they want to hire from,
24:37
and everyone who has any of
24:39
the qualifications that they
24:42
are looking for will pop
24:43
up on the right side of their screen.
24:45
So this is designed to break through the,
24:49
you know, "old boys" network in a way.
24:51
It's designed to keep
24:53
hiring local so that we're
24:55
not going to the same five people, right?
24:58
This is a very, very gate-kept industry.
25:02
You get hired by who you know.
25:04
I'm currently in Cedar City, Utah,
25:06
which is a small but highly artistic community.
25:08
The Utah Shakespeare Festival is here.
25:10
And even here, people are being brought in when we have
25:15
an entire university of people
25:17
who are majoring in all of these things.
25:20
[Kara] You're both speaking our language that
25:22
we talk about all the time here at Pop of Culture.
25:25
Thank you for speaking with us.
25:27
We've been talking to Liza Yntema and Nancy Dobbs Owen
25:30
of the Dance Data Project,
25:32
a nonprofit working to promote
25:34
gender equity in the arts through data.
25:36
[Liza] Thank you for the opportunity.
25:38
[Nancy] Thank you so much.
25:44
[Michelle] It's the part
25:52
of the show where we learn the meaning behind the lyrics.
25:56
[Luke] We call it "Behind the Song."
25:58
[Michelle] Catchy.
25:59
[Luke] It comes from The Songwriter Sessions,
26:01
a live event every first Thursday in Downtown Muncie.
26:05
[Michelle] These local songwriters were recorded
26:07
exclusively for Pop of Culture in February.
26:10
[Spenser] But once again, my name is Spencer, spelled S-P-E-N-S-E-R.
26:15
Thank you to Elm Street Brewing,
26:18
for having us tonight and
26:20
letting local original music be played.
26:24
And thank you to the Fierce klan for
26:29
hosting and for everybody being here.
26:33
And stick around because after me,
26:36
if you're sick of me, we'll have Kat after me.
26:38
And this next song,
26:42
I wrote this one last year.
26:44
I had a friend who let a boy ruin her mood,
26:46
and she was in a really grumpy mood for so long,
26:49
and I was like, Girl, it's just a boy.
26:51
And I wrote a song
26:53
called "Ruin My Mood" from her perspective,
26:54
and she doesn't know about it 'cause she
26:56
doesn't want to know when I write songs about her,
26:57
so I don't tell her, but it's about her.
27:02
So yeah, this one's called Ruin Mod.
27:13
♪♪ Try my best
27:18
to brighten up for you. Bit the bullet, tightened up
27:22
my loose shoes all for you
27:25
to never even make a move,
27:28
bit of brain darkened up I move.
27:32
Lit a candle by the kitchen counter,
27:41
blew it out 'cause it didn't matter.
27:44
Oh, and I know I know this ain't
27:47
the start of a chapter,
27:49
just the story of how he never had her.
27:59
And it'll ruin my
28:00
mood if I don't say, "I love you" and it'll ruin my mood
28:09
if I don't get to talk to you. But you never do.
28:15
You ruin my mood.
28:22
Burn the garden, wreck a perfect evening,
28:26
just so I could forget the morning.
28:30
Oh and a flame is blown in a crowd shotgunnin' a beer.
28:36
I tastes like you.
28:42
And it'll ruin my mood if you
28:52
don't say "love you"
28:59
And it'll ruin my mood if
29:04
I don't get to talk to you.
29:04
But you never do. You ruin my mood.
29:04
Sour is the taste on my tongue after I
29:11
see the wine and I don't get my way again.
29:16
Ignorance is bliss but
29:19
not like this.
29:20
I want to crawl inside your head.
29:24
You swore it wasn't casual maybe more you just got say the word.
29:33
listen before I go,
29:35
you never know what it's like to get the girl.
29:41
Oh.
29:57
And it'll ruin my mood if you don't say "love you".
30:04
And it'll ruin my mood if I don't get to talk to you.
30:14
Which you'll never do. You ruin my mood.
30:22
Which you'll never do. You ruin my mood. ♪♪
30:29
Thank you.
30:38
[Kat Nightingale] My name is Kat Nightingale.
30:41
That's Kat with a K Nightingale
30:43
like the songbird chirp chirp.
30:45
You can find me on all the socials,
30:47
Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.
30:49
I've got a couple of songs
30:50
out on the streaming platforms.
30:54
And this song is the title song
30:58
for my album that I'm in the process of recording. Um
31:02
So this is a song about
31:05
breaking the cycles of generational trauma.
31:08
There's a really interesting article about
31:10
scientists who took these rats
31:12
who were attracted to a cherry tree,
31:14
and they put electrodes around the base of the tree.
31:16
Anytime the rats would approach,
31:18
they would get an electrical shock.
31:21
And they very quickly
31:22
associated not just the tree itself,
31:24
but even the fragrance of the cherries would initiate
31:27
this pain response in these poor traumatized rats.
31:30
And then they took the traumatized rats,
31:32
and they breed them with untraumatized rats.
31:35
And that offspring, without
31:37
ever having set foot near a cherry tree,
31:39
never seen one before,
31:40
immediately got a pain response
31:42
to the fragrance of the cherries.
31:45
And they repeated this process over and over again,
31:48
and it took over it took seven generations to
31:51
finally break that trauma response
31:53
in these untraumatized rats.
31:55
Um, so we're slightly more complex than rats, and,
32:01
you know, we've got
32:02
all this compound trauma from our great,
32:04
great, great, great grandparents all the
32:05
way down to our parents and us.
32:07
So, you know, please do
32:09
your shadow work, go to counseling.
32:11
Let's make this world slightly less f****d up than,
32:15
you know, the next generation,
32:16
slightly lessed f****d up than we are.
32:18
So thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
32:21
This is "Monkey See."
32:39
♪♪ You woke
32:41
us up at 3:00 A.M. And you brought us to
32:46
the kitchen so we could throw pancakes across the room.
32:54
Then he loaded us in the station and took us to the park.
33:01
So we could catch him right on a hot air balloon.
33:08
But the very next day you just laid in
33:12
bed for weeks you didn't even lift your head.
33:17
When the hell did you even go? But it's not your fault,
33:24
You didn't know what's wrong with
33:32
you affected us all and
33:37
the monkey see and the monkeys will too.
33:44
Whatever we have to do to survive.
34:05
Well,
34:06
the lessons we learn from
34:08
our folks help to teach us right and wrong.
34:12
They shape us and who we're going to be.
34:18
But you will need Tommy to hit and scream.
34:24
You didn't teach me to cook or clean.
34:27
From you I got depression and anxiety
34:33
and the only other things I learn from you
34:37
are how to people please and be abused.
34:42
How the hell I supposed to know that it's not my fault
34:51
I didn't know what's wrong with
34:56
you affected us all.
35:01
And a monkey sees and a monkey will do
35:08
whatever she has to do to survive.
35:28
But
35:29
this monkey heard and this monkey
35:34
he learned that there's a better way to live and
35:43
a monkey is doing a shadow book cause she is
35:51
not monkey. I'm not a monkey anymore.
36:10
Now I'm
36:12
all grown up and on my own,
36:14
I've got two dogs and a cat and a mortgage loan.
36:18
In fact, I think I'm doing just fine 'cause
36:25
I'm learning to tell the difference
36:28
between what can and can't control,
36:32
I'll just do my best and leave the rest behind.
36:38
But I'm far from perfect believe you me.
36:42
I still struggle with setting boundaries.
36:46
But I'm getting stronger every day.
36:52
It becomes our fault because when he know
36:58
we have the choice to learn and grow,
37:05
but if we turn away we'll forever stay just a monkey in a cage.
37:16
Were not monkeys anymore.
37:30
We're not monkeys anymore. ♪♪
37:46
[Michelle] That was
37:47
Kat Nightingale with her song "Monkey See."
37:50
Before that, Spenser performed "Ruin My Mood."
37:54
"Story Behind the Song" comes from Songwriter Sessions,
37:57
created by The Fierce and produced by Josh Isenhart.
38:01
Full disclosure, I'm a member of
38:03
The Fierce and the host of The Sessions.
38:05
You're listening to Pop of Culture.
38:08
I'm Michelle Kinsey.
38:09
[Luke] And I'm Luke Jones.
38:10
This week for, "What Are You Working On?"
38:13
[Michelle] Has a record 12
38:16
International Blue Grass Music Association Fiddler
38:19
of the Year Awards and in 2018,
38:23
was inducted into the National Fiddlers Hall of Fame.
38:27
Of course, I'm talking about Michael Cleveland.
38:30
And he's returning with his band Flamekeeper to Muncie on
38:34
July 11 to kick off
38:37
the Muncie Three Trails music series
38:39
at Canan Commons in Downtown
38:41
Muncie. Michael, thanks for
38:43
joining us before the big show.
38:45
[Michael Cleveland] Hey, thank you all. Thanks so much for having me.
38:48
[Michelle] Now, this show marks your third appearance in Muncie.
38:53
Other shows were in 2019 and 2021.
38:57
So what keeps you-.
38:58
[Michael] Man, I think there's more than that.
39:00
[Michelle] Is there?
39:00
[Michael] Uh, I was trying to remember how many times,
39:04
but I know we played it at least two other times.
39:08
I think this might be our, like,
39:10
fifth or sixth time doing it.
39:11
[Michelle] You've got to be kidding.
39:13
Well, I'm going to change that question,
39:15
and I'm going to say, you've
39:19
appeared in Muncie several times.
39:22
Obviously, Muncie loves you.
39:24
What do you love about playing in Muncie?
39:27
[Michael] Man, it's just a laid-back kind of vibe there,
39:32
and it's just such a great spot to play.
39:34
And, I mean, I've even they always have a great lineup.
39:38
Every time I see the lineup, it's like,
39:40
Man, I need to come back and see these guys.
39:43
But I'm we really enjoy
39:46
getting to play there anytime we
39:47
get the chance. It's usually every
39:50
every couple of years or so.
39:52
So I mean, it's
39:54
always an honor for us to get to come back.
39:56
[Michelle] Michael, you were recognized as
39:59
a prodigy at a very young age.
40:02
Talk a little bit about that.
40:04
And then, if you could share about how
40:07
your relationship with music has changed over the years.
40:11
[Michael] I think I love music as much or more
40:14
now than I did when I was a little kid,
40:16
and that's saying a lot
40:18
because it's really all I thought about.
40:21
None of my family played music at all,
40:24
but my grandparents had got into
40:26
Bluegrass music a few years before I was born.
40:29
And they helped start a Bluegrass show in Henryville,
40:35
Indiana, where I'm from, originally.
40:37
So I think my grandparents,
40:40
from what I heard,
40:41
I don't remember this, but they started
40:44
taking me to this stuff when I was about six months old.
40:47
And I just love the music and
40:51
I don't remember much about being 4-years-old,
40:54
but I remember hearing
40:56
a fiddle player play the "Orange Blossom Special."
40:59
And that was what did it for me, you know,
41:03
I knew at that point that I had to
41:07
learn how to play fiddle if only to play that. So
41:10
So there was really nobody around who
41:14
had taught somebody who was visually impaired.
41:18
And then I started school at
41:21
The Kentucky School for the Blind in Louisville,
41:23
Kentucky, when I was getting ready to turn five.
41:27
And they had a music program,
41:30
and it was all,
41:32
you know, by ear.
41:34
And I remember going into
41:37
the music room for
41:39
the first time and meeting the teacher, Mrs. Nolan.
41:43
And she asked me, you know,
41:44
"What is it about the violin
41:45
that makes you want to learn how to play it?"
41:47
I said, "Well, I don't know much about the violin,
41:49
but I know a lot about the fiddle,
41:51
and I want to learn how to play bluegrass music,
41:55
and I want to learn the Orange Blossom Special."
41:58
She was not impressed at that time.
42:03
But that's kind of that's really how I got started.
42:09
And then it was just kind of once I
42:13
got to where I could play a few simple versions of tunes,
42:16
I started taking my fiddle around
42:18
all the bluegrass stuff and
42:20
just learning as much as I could from everybody.
42:25
[Michelle] Right. So when you were younger, who inspired you?
42:29
Who were your mentors?
42:30
And who are you listening
42:32
to today that you're inspired by?
42:34
[Michael] Of course, there was a lot of
42:36
fiddle players. Benny Martin, I'd say,
42:40
Kenny Baker, Scotty Stoneman,
42:42
Bobby Hicks, pretty much all the guys in there.
42:47
And there were local players.
42:48
You know, there were people
42:50
around here who were as
42:53
good and could have played professionally.
42:56
They just, you know, they didn't.
42:58
They had jobs and
43:00
families and have never chose to go out on the road,
43:03
but they could have done it easily.
43:06
[Michelle] Yeah. Some might be
43:08
attending a Michael Cleveland concert
43:10
for the first time in July.
43:12
What can they expect?
43:14
[Michael] High octane Bluegrass music.
43:16
That's what we try to bring.
43:18
And we try to represent traditional Bluegrass,
43:24
because that's what I always love.
43:26
I play all kinds of music.
43:28
And, you know, but what
43:30
I really love to play most of all,
43:33
is just traditional hard driving, you know,
43:36
grass. We do add our own elements to it.
43:41
We like to jam out
43:43
quite a bit and kind of stretch out a little bit.
43:47
But we always try to take it back
43:50
to the people who set the standard
43:53
and kind of started this music like
43:55
Bill Monroe and the Stanley Brothers and Jimmy Martin,
43:59
even if we're not playing a song like them,
44:02
we try to play in that way.
44:05
You know, with the drive and
44:07
intensity that those guys play.
44:09
[Michelle] What's the weirdest place you've ever performed?
44:12
[Michael] Oh, man. Ah. Let's see.
44:17
So the jam, I got
44:21
to jam with Doc Watson when I was 13-years-old,
44:24
and there's a video floating around that.
44:27
That jam session took place in the bathroom.
44:30
[Michelle] What?
44:30
[Michael] At at IBMA in Owensboro.
44:34
Yeah, they were all picking in
44:36
this Emma's big bathroom area. You know.
44:39
[Michelle] Oh, that's a great one. I love that.
44:42
Do you name your fiddles,
44:44
and if so, which one is your favorite?
44:46
[Michael] I have never named my fiddles.
44:48
But the one that I
44:51
always play all the time and
44:53
I just keep coming back to it.
44:55
You know, I'm always looking at fiddles,
44:57
and man, you know, like,
44:59
I think that I find
45:01
one that is better than what I have, but really,
45:05
I always keep coming back to
45:07
the five string fiddle built
45:10
by John Silikowski from Stotsburg,
45:13
Indiana, that I've played since probably 1997 when I got it.
45:20
And that I hope
45:22
nothing ever happens to that fiddle because
45:24
I've yet to find anything that comes close.
45:28
[Michelle] Ah.
45:28
[Michael] To me.
45:29
[Michelle] Yeah. That would be a hard one to replace.
45:32
[Michael] Yeah.
45:32
[Michelle] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:34
And our last question, you've won
45:37
just about every award a Bluegrass fiddler
45:39
can win, if not all of them.
45:40
What still makes you excited to pick up the fiddle?
45:45
[Michael] The music, you know, I uh
45:48
you know, I think about it,
45:52
even when I'm not playing,
45:53
and I can still find something.
45:58
I can still listen to something
46:00
and just makes me want to play. And
46:05
I hope I never lose that,
46:07
you know, I still love to jam.
46:10
I don't get to jam as much
46:11
because it's just so busy anymore,
46:14
but man, anytime I get the opportunity,
46:17
I just I've always loved to play music.
46:20
[Michelle] Well, we are looking forward to
46:22
listening to you jam right
46:24
here in Muncie, Indiana in July.
46:26
Thank you so much, Michael,
46:28
for taking time to
46:30
chat with us on Pop of Culture.
46:32
[Michael] Thanks for having me.
46:35
[Luke] It's time for the Arts Calendar.
46:39
Whoo.
46:40
The seventh annual Juneteenth
46:42
Muncie celebration is Saturday,
46:43
June 20 at McCollough.
46:45
The event from 1:00 to 7:00 P.M,
46:48
will include live entertainment, vendors,
46:50
and community tables, a wellness village,
46:53
and much more. Everyone is welcome.
46:56
[Michelle] Awesome. Muncy Civic Theatre is presenting
46:59
"The Taming" in
47:00
the Casazza Family Studio Theatre this weekend.
47:03
This comedy by Lauren Gunderson,
47:05
author of "The Revolutionist" and "Book of Will"
47:07
is derived from Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew."
47:11
It is a fast-paced combination
47:13
of politics and beauty pageants.
47:16
Yes, you heard that correctly.
47:17
That will challenge what you think you
47:19
know about modern American politics and women.
47:23
munciecivictheater.org has more info.
47:26
[Luke] I remember when Laura Williamson
47:28
described we had her on from Muncie Civic,
47:30
and she described what that play was about,
47:32
and I had to cut out my laugh on the pan left.
47:35
[Michelle] Yeah, very interesting premise.
47:38
Yes.
47:39
[Luke] The Muncie Artist Guild annual show kicks off Saturday,
47:42
June 20 at Minnetrista Museum and Gardens.
47:45
The exhibit runs through August 9.
47:48
From painting to mixed media,
47:50
the show features a variety of artistic styles
47:53
and celebrates creativity across East Central Indiana.
47:57
[Michelle] Speaking of celebrating, it is
47:59
a big weekend for live music
48:02
outside. I love some outdoor music.
48:08
We've got a lot on tap.
48:09
Mike Milligan and Steam Shovel will perform Friday at
48:13
Yorktown Civic Green as part
48:14
of its free summer concert series.
48:16
The Blues begins at 7:30
48:18
P.M. And Cook & Bell will perform at
48:21
the Anderson Summer Concert Series Friday
48:23
at the Dickman Town Center at 7:30 P.M.
48:26
[Luke] Hank Haggard will be causing a ruckus at 7:00 P.M.
48:30
Saturday at Guardian Brewing Company
48:32
as part of its outdoor concert series.
48:35
Jerry Barker and The Onion Cutters
48:37
will perform at 7:00 P.M.
48:39
Saturday at Jack Rabbit Coffee in
48:41
Anderson on their coffee patio.
48:43
[Michelle] Coffee patio. But wait. There's more.
48:47
Duke Tomato is in Newcastle Friday as part of
48:50
the Newcastle Henry County
48:51
concert series at the Arts Park.
48:54
Music begins at 7:00 P.M. Friday night,
48:56
you can catch the Chameleon Brothers at Tony Winery.
48:59
John Allen will be there on Saturday,
49:02
and Big Roscoe in
49:03
the Hammers will perform Saturday as part of
49:06
the Dunkirk Summer Concert Series at Webster Depot Park.
49:10
That show is at 7:00 P.M.
49:12
[Luke] But wait, wait. There's more.
49:15
The 11th annual Anderson On Tap
49:18
is Saturday at the Dickman Center downtown.
49:21
This year's event will feature pours from
49:23
40 Indiana Craft Breweries,
49:26
distilleries and wineries, live music,
49:28
local food, local art, games, and more.
49:32
This is a 21 and older event,
49:34
friends, tickets are available at the gate.
49:37
[Michelle] And before we go,
49:39
don't forget that Sunday is Father's Day.
49:43
Do something nice for Dad, okay?
49:46
[Luke] I was trying to think of something nice I could
49:48
do for my dad that my dad would appreciate.
49:50
Uh, Dad, just for you.
49:52
I'm going into a STEM field instead.
49:54
We want to
49:56
hear about your arts and culture events.
49:58
Let us know at indianapublicradio.org /contact.
50:02
Then click Pop of Culture.
50:03
Support for Pop
50:07
of Culture comes from Stallings
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50:12
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50:15
Those donations are important,
50:17
but they don't bring back the funding to IPR.
50:20
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50:23
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50:26
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50:29
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50:33
Give today at indianapublicradio.org.
50:37
And that's our show.
50:39
Our director of Audio Operations is Sean Ashcraft.
50:43
[Michelle] This week was produced by Luke Jones,
50:46
who is going to stick with radio.
50:48
Sorry, Luke's dad.
50:49
[Luke] We had
50:50
production assistant from Andrew Montavon.
50:53
[Michelle] Our show was hosted by me, Michelle Kinsey.
50:55
[Luke] And me Luke Jones.
50:57
Pop of culture is a production from
51:00
IPR on the campus of Ball State University.
51:05
This year's event will feature pours from
51:08
40 Indiana Craft Brew. Brew. Anenemony.
51:13
This year's event-
51:13
[Michelle] I'm sorry.
51:17
[inaudible]
51:25
Oh.
51:33
Ho. This is gonna be your [inaudible].
51:37
[Casey Alexander] Okay. Maybe the first take wasn't that bad.