Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Is 10X Season Here?🔥Bitwise Matt Hougan INTERVIEW

Transcript

Is 10X Season Here?🔥Bitwise Matt Hougan INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Could Robinhood be starting a bull run right now? We're
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: going to be breaking that down for you guys. A
• 0:04
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• 0:40
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• 0:43
  Speaker 1: check it out. Tell them we sent you. I'm going
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to start. with a clip of Matt Hogan, and then
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: we're going to bring him on live. But I want
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: to go with this clip first. Take a look.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: That's just not true. I mean, just look at that chart.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: One of the most beautiful charts in finance. Eventually, the
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: market will wake up to this reality, and it's going
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: to be DeFi Summer 2.0. And I think that will
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: 10x usage. DeFi Summer 2.0, here we are.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: There you go. You called it, Matt. I have to
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: give you the credit, even though you were wrong. 10X
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: season had not hit. In fact, if you look at Uniswap,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: it looks more like 20X right there. So in terms
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: of active addresses jumping to 1.2 million, of course, all
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: of this being driven by what's happening on Robinhood chain.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: And now we're seeing an absolute, you know, barn burn
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: in the market. Where do you think Uniswap heads from here?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: We kind of talked about that pre-show, but what does
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: this mean for Uniswap? What does this mean for Robinhood?
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Kind of give me your thesis there.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The reason I was excited about the number of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: transactions was that you could believe in DeFi working. It
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: proved itself through multiple bear market cycles. It hadn't gone away.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: It had strengthened. It had worked. And if we got
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: the right regulatory setup, we got the right institutional adoption,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: you could see it scale dramatically. That's what we've seen
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: on Robinhood Chain. Obviously, that's been hugely beneficial for Uniswap.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: We're now burning something like $ 120, $ 130 million in fees
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: on an annualized run rate basis. That's probably an outdated figure.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe we're up to $ 200 million. I don't know. I
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: think this is just the start. And I think that's
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: true for two reasons. One, I think Robinhood chain is
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: just going to continue to grow from here. We're very
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: early in the penetration. I don't think it's being adopted,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: certainly not by US users. I still think it's early
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: in its penetration into the world's mindshare. So from that
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: perspective alone, I think Uniswap has substantial growth just from
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Robinhood chain. But the thing outside that is every Robinhood
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: competitor has to be looking at what's going on at
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: hood and saying they just launched a billion dollar business
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: in the span of a few months. Shouldn't we be
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: doing something, too? And the unique thing that Robinhood did
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: was that their go to market included things like Uniswap,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: included things like Morpho, included things like Aerodrome. And so
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: if we start to see that replicating across other institutional settings,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: could we 10x again? I'm not sure. But I don't
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: think it's been built into the price of Uniswap. It's
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: still a $ 5 billion asset or something. That seems off
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: by an order of magnitude to me. So I'm still
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: very optimistic on where Uniswap goes from here.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: So Uniswap, obviously a big part of how Robinhood chain
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: is working, kind of see the chart right there, up 43%.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: This is just since the end of July. So you
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: look at this kind of growth and remember Robinhood had
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: eclipsed right here, but this is the thing that, you know,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people missed. And I was
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: one of the people that kind of, I won't say
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: pressured them, but I was very vocal in saying, we
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: need to launch faster. We need to get more products out,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: all these things, because Vlad and the team, they were
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: promising a lot. And I kind of thought, well, there's
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: no movement. And then all of a sudden, now you
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: see why there was no movement, because all these strategies
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: were being put in place, all these simultaneously almost launching
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: at the same time in the sense of growth. So
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: the opportunity is super for sure. And I think you're right.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: I think the key here is going to be exponential
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: growth coming inbound for hood and hood chain. So a
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: lot to look at there. I want to go over
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: to a clip here, because this is Bloomberg talking about
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: your Sol ETF. Let's cut to that one.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: Another chart that looks very similar to that is Solana,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: also up more than 40 percent in the past month
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: as institutional money pours in. Solana just had its best
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: week of inflows of the year last week. And if
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: you look at the ETF tied to it, the Bitwise
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: Solana staking ETF crossing one billion dollars in assets under
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: management less than one year since its launch.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: One year, one billion. Congratulations. I'm looking at Eric Balshunas.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: He's talking about this in terms of the Bitwise ETF.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: First of all, where do you think this goes from here?
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is exponential growth within the Solana. Is
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: there more appetite here?
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a lot more appetite. You have
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: to think about those inflows that Balchunas is calling out there, $ 1. 7
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: billion of inflows, given that we were in a bear market. Obviously,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: if this flips to a bull market, which many of
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: us think we are still in the early stages of that,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and you have people looking for ways to invest in tokenization,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I think this could be a multi-billion dollar ETF. I'm
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: not guaranteeing that. Of course, I could be wrong. But
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: we hear a lot of demand from wealth managers, from
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: traditional investors. How do I play the growth of tokenization?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And there are many ways to answer that. Hood is
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: one way to answer that. But another way to answer
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: that is the L1s on which this is taking place.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: And certainly equity tokenization, tokenized stocks is, you know, largely
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: a Solana-based phenomenon at this point. And there's reasons to
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: believe it will be a leader in that space. So
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: we think there'll be substantial demand for this ETF as
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: we accelerate into this bull market that will maybe make
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: the initial demand look relatively small in scale.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Man, the initial demand, small in scale, that's something to
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: think about when you look at Solana as a whole,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: especially in terms of growth opportunity here. And it is
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: one of those out there. What do you think about
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: staking ETFs in general in comparison, how this market would
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: respond to those?
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, broadly, I think people want to
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: stake their Solana. In the case of Solana, you're talking
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: about multiple percentage points that you can earn. And I
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: think also there's this movement to use institutional custody, which
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: is a big deal. So I'm bullish on them generally.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I want to go to a clip here. This is
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Tom Lee talking about the September setup, and I want
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: to see if you agree with this. Take a look.
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: People are edging into September cautious because markets are down,
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: oils up, yields are up, and people are talking about
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: the seasonality. I'm going to be contrarian. I think this
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: is a setup for actually September to be a strong
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: month for stocks. Why? Why? Well, I think one is
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: that the inflation fears are likely to quell this month.
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: We have the jobs report on Friday. Next week is
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: August CPI. And then we have, of course, the FOMC
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: rate decision in September. I think the sequence of those
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: events is going to show inflation is weakening. And I
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: think the odds of September hike might actually drop to zero.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: All right. So there you have it. You've got Tom Lee,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: very bullish for September. First of all, do you agree
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: with him?
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, he seemed to call today's rally, right?
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Today's rally is all about rate expectations coming down. I
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: do generally agree with him. I don't think rates are
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: a story right now. I think we're in like the
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: great muddle where we're going to drift sideways and we're
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: going to periodically expect rate increases and periodically expect rate cuts.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: But rates will be about where they are in a
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: handful of months. I think the story is more on
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the fiscal side. I think there's a lot of bull
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: cases there. for Bitcoin. But yeah, there you go. Look,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I think we're in something that looks more like the
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Greenspan Fed era, where rates were relatively bounded for a
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: sustained period of time. But I do think, look, Tom
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: called it right. I think he literally called today's rally.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: This is why we're rallying today. I'm relatively optimistic going
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: into the end of the year.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: You know, it's very interesting to me because Trump has
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: been on record just the other day in the Oval Office,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: he was asked point blank, you know, what do you
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: think is going to happen here next week in the FOMC?
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: What happens if they raise rates? He says, hey, we,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: you know, we have the lowest interest rates worldwide. He'll
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: do what he needs to do. And you go into
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: just what it was looking like yesterday, September 6th, at
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: 6 a.m., we were at a 59% And then, of course,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: all of this fell through and boom, right there, it
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: just started to drop. And the market, of course, responded.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: So now no change in order, almost a flip from
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: where we are in the beginning of the week. Why
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and how do you think this happens?
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's part and parcel of the Worsh Fed, right?
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: In the Powell Fed, we talked about forward guidance. We
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: had the dot plots. We had expectations. Warsh came in
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: and said, we'll be data dependent and driven by what's
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: going on in the market. And what that means is
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: as more market signals come in, you can see this
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: data flip. I think the real story on inflation is
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: it's slightly elevated. It's slightly coming down, but it's a
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: bumpy road. And I expect that will continue into the future.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: That's why I think this is the great muddle. That's
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: why I think, you know, Warsh basically is going to
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: sit on his hands. for a long period of time
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: until you get an overwhelming data signal. But that's the
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: era we're in. We're in a data-driven Fed. And so
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: every data point is going to adjust those expectations. But
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: I think for an investor, the thing to focus on
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: is we're going to be in this like threes zone
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: for a while. The story isn't going to be rates.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: It's going to occupy headlines. It's going to get a
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: lot of coverage. But the story isn't going to be rates.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: It's do we see more interventions from Besson and the
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Treasury side? Do we see more action in Japan? I
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: actually think that's where the macro focus is. And that's
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: right now pushing in a very bullish direction for Bitcoin.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, and you've got other things that are
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: kind of leaning into what's going on in crypto. You've
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: got the SEC chair, Paul Atkins, saying, hey, yes, we
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: think that we're headed for a Senate vote coming on
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: the 15th. That's just here, what, 10 days away, it
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: feels like. When you look at that right now, especially
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: with alignment, because the poly market is still very negative
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: on this in terms of getting through for cloture. What's
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: your position right now? Are you still very positive?
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm positive on it from a market signal. I
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: think the probability is probably lower than 50%. But as
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: you indicated, the consensus in the market is it ain't happening.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: So the market has priced it in as not happening. Therefore,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: it's either a non-event if it fails or or an
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: extraordinary positive catalyst, an upside surprise, right? It's like going
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: into an earnings event expecting no earnings or very low earnings,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: and you sort of only have the potential for a
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: positive upside catalyst. I think crypto is fine in either scenario.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: If we don't get clarity, Atkins will continue to act
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: in the way that he has, dripping new rules every
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: few weeks that sort of define this outside of the
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: clarity bounds. If we get clarity, I think it's a
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: runaway bull market. And we're quickly back up towards six-figure Bitcoin,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: substantially higher ETH, and much higher DeFi prices.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Well, one of the things that is
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: starting to kind of lead in that direction is what
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the SEC is doing on their 24-hour trading roundtable. This,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: of course, setting up right now. And it looks to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: be kind of the who's who. They're going to kind
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: of break it down into three different panels. They've got
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: one that's going to be looking at 24-hour trading as
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: an overall strategy. They're going to have the resiliency side
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: of it. That's panel two. And then panel three is
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: talking about kind of where do we go from here.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: When you look at what the SEC is doing, when
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the idea of what we could be seeing in the
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: US very soon is that 24-7 trading, this seems to
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: be like they already have a roadmap.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: I think there's two things that are fait accompli, and
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: it tells you everything about how you should be positioning
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: your portfolio. The first is, regardless of what happens on
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the Clarity Act, the SEC is going to find a
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: way to move us to a tokenized 24-7, 365 trading environment.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Atkins has said this is the biggest upgrade in how
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: financial markets work since we went from floor-based trading to
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: digital trading. I think that he wants this to be
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: his legacy, that he moved us into this modern world
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: of instant settlement and 24-7 trading. I think that is
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: going to happen regardless. And the second is related to that,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: which is, look, the world is moving to tokenized rails.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: It may take six months. It may take two years.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: It may take three years. But we're going to move
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: to a world where all assets are tokenized and they
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: are all traded on blockchain based rails. What I think
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: that agenda points out is the exact specifics of how
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: that happens are still a little bit unclear. What does
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: that mean as an investor? That means that making any
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: one singular bet is probably relatively risky, saying it's going
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: to happen exactly this way. I'm going to put all
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: my chips only on Solana and that's going to be it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: That's probably risky. A safer approach is to say innovators
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: are going to win on this space. I want to
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: own some hood. I want to own some Solana. I
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: want to own some Uniswap. I want to own some Ethereum.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: That's a mega trend. That's a super cycle that I
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: want to get behind. I think investors who take that
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: diversified approach have probably a great chance of success. Investors
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: who are picking and choosing, you should know that there's
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: still uncertainty in exactly how this happens and who the
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: winners are. But make no mistake, it's going to happen.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: That's what the market.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Is telling you. Your tweet right here, people are making
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: two compounding mistakes when evaluating DeFi. Market size, one, people
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: think it's kind of the crypto market size. You're saying, no,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: it's $ 500 trillion asset market. And then the value capture,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: people think they've maximized the fee gen when they're really
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: just getting going. So I think everybody is now starting
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: to wake up to this. The more I talk to
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: fairly sophisticated investors, they're already there. But even new people
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: coming into the market, understanding what this means, they're starting
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: to get the picture here. First of all, do you
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: think our vault's kind of an easier adoption product for
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: those kinds of investors?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I do agree with you that they're starting to get
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: the picture, that what's happening on this crypto side is
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: just sort of fintech 2.0, and that these are real
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: entities with real revenue, and they're attacking real markets, and
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: the opportunity is very scalable. I think specifically to things
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: like vaults, and I know we want to talk about ATPs,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: I think you're seeing people productize this in a way
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: that makes it readable for investors. It's one thing to
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: say there are these on-chain credits which you can go
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: and do your due diligence on and do your own
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: credit analysis and evaluate and allocate to them. That's probably
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: outside the bounds of what most people want to do,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: what a vault does. is an institutional manager like Bitwise
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: will do the due diligence, will evaluate the credit, will
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: evaluate the smart contracts, will set up rules, and they'll
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: allow you to access those yields without requiring you to
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: be on the front lines of curating those exact exposures. Look,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: that's how this market matures. First, you do it in
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: a raw sense, you make those assets available, and then
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: you have curators on top of that who do the
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: due diligence work that you want to outsource to to
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: package them together and deliver the exposure you want. I
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: do think we're going to see more and more of
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: that in the future.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, so with all of that happening, you've got automated
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: tokenized stock portfolios. You guys have wrote it. The ATPs
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: have rolled out. The likelihood of this, first of all, beginning,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: give us kind of a framework of where you see
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: this heading from here and some of the key points.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I think you outlined a couple of them there, but
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: can you go further?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I'm really bullish on automated token portfolios. For what it's worth,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: what those are is a firm will create a model
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: like Bitwise capturing a theme in the market. It could
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: be robotics. It could be cyber defense. It could be
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: a narrow theme like Chinese robotics. Create a model and
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: then individual users can subscribe to that model and the
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: stocks in that model will be automatically purchased in their
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: individual portfolios and their wallets. I think this is how
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: asset management will work in the future. If you think
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: about what asset management is today, you have an asset
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: manager creates a legal fund vehicle with a fund board
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: that holds custody. Millions of investors deposit their money into
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: this single pooled vehicle, and then you manage that vehicle.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of junk in that process. What an
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: ATP is, is it use tokenized stocks. It uses smart
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: contract technology to just remove all that junk. What you
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: want is exposure to robotics. professionally managed portfolio or guided portfolios,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: constructed portfolios that you can subscribe to without all the
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: junk in the middle. So where do I think this goes?
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I think there's going to be literally trillions of dollars
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: in ATPs at some point in the future. Obviously, we're
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: about one week in, right? One weekend into ETFs, no
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: one knew what they were. In fact, it took, you know, 10,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: 15 years for ETFs to really take off. I think
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: ATPs are that style opportunity. I think it's how people
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: are going to access asset management in traditional vehicles. And
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I think you'll see a lot of innovation from firms
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: like Bitwise in terms of what we can do in ATPs,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: including some stuff, Paul, that we can't do in ETFs
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: because this is a more flexible, lightweight wrapper.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is going to be an interesting
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: model going forward as we see how these might work.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: The opportunities seem to be much greater, at least to
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: the upside, especially as the market starts to mature with
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: digital assets.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: I think there's going to be incredible opportunities of finely
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: tuned themes of things that combine crypto assets and equities
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: or perps and assets. Look, again, I think this is
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: a major way on how we're seeing how asset management
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: is going to work in this tokenized age. They're going
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: to be vaults. They're going to be ATPs. There'll probably
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: be a few other vehicles that make tokenized assets readable
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: to end investors. But make no mistake, I think it's
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: going to be a multi-trillion dollar market. That's one of
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: the reasons why Bitwise is excited to be an early
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: pioneer in the space.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Speaking of vaults, I'm looking here at the Bitwise vault
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: on Morpho. You can kind of see the comparison here
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: with ETH and BASE. You look over on Joop, you
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: can kind of see the Athena Bitwise also. This total
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: supply capped up at around 500 million. Why the cap here?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Because now it's growing on Solana. Why capping it?
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: On any of these vaults, you have to think about
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: the available exposure that you can get, right? You know,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: it's an infinite pool of capital. If you take this
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: to infinity, Paul, you can imagine. could we do $ 10
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: trillion in this vault? We definitely couldn't. There isn't that exposure.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: So you need to style it like that. But we're
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: very excited to continue to roll out these vaults. You know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: we launched the Pappy vault, premium APY on Morpho. which
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: holds real world asset exposure. That's the interesting thing here.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: It's not sort of fictional points-based yield. If you look
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: at something like Pappy, what you're talking about is getting
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: exposure to cross-border finance. You're getting exposure to GPU rentals.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: You're getting exposure to yields coming out of HELOCs. Those
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: are very traditional credits, but they can be packaged into
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: this on-chain format made available via a smart contract. I
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: think it's a beautiful example of how traditional finance and
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: on-chain finance come together. And we've already seen a few
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: million dollars flow into that. It's been pretty great.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Using Agora there on the stablecoin, you can kind of
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: see the breakdown here by Bitwise, which is interesting when
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you look at how you guys are doing this. First
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: of all, real world assets. What is backing this up?
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: When you say real world asset, what kind of real
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: world asset would that be?
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, things like yields coming out of home equity loans, right?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: You don't get much more real than that. So part
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: of this exposure is into HELOCs provided by figure. Things
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: like cross-border finance from Huma PST. Cross-border finance is a
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: massive industry globally. And we can package that up and
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: deliver that in a vault-like setting. That's how you're able
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: to get yields that are above Huma. currently above short
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: term treasury yields, even for over collateralized positions.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Because you're accessing these very real world yields that won't
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: go away. I think that's why it's appealing in the market.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: So many yields across the history of crypto have been fictional,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: fleeting and fake. And that's gotten crypto into a lot
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: of problems. It's really nice that we're at the point
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: now that we're talking about things like home equity lines
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: of credit.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Which is one of the most traditional sources of yield
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: in the markets. And we're able to package that in
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: a tokenized or a fault-like factor. I think it's an
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: example of where this whole thing is going and why,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: to get to one of the earlier tweets you showed,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: this is not a $ 2 trillion market. This is a
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: $ 500 trillion market. That's the change that people need to
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: wrap their heads around. We're not talking about crypto-only NFTs,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: meme coins. Those have their place, but we're talking about
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: home equity loans, mortgages, cross-border finance, these enormous markets. And
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: that's just we're at the early edge of that, but
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: it's why I'm so bullish on the entire ecosystem.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I want to go back to the RWA
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: situation real quickly because I thought I had read somewhere
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that you also had GPUs that were being used as
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: part of that RWA stack. Is that true?
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tools for accessing
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: firms that are borrowing to finance GPU purchases. Obviously, that's
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: a big topic right now. And there needs to be
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of capital injected in that space to fund
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: the AI build out. And so that's a portion of
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: this PAPI vault as well.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Listen, we've been following Collector Crypt. This is another one.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: This is RWA, essentially Pokemon cards that were on Collector
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Crypt now leading crypto. the real world asset space in
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: terms of collectibles that we'll see rolling in. Do you
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: think we'll see more of these kinds of RWAs flowing
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: into TradFi?
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. I mean, look, you're going to get a
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: wide variety of exposure. I saw people talking earlier today
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: on the timeline about bringing luxury goods into the space.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: And I think you will see that. You know, it's
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: easy to make these things. These markets have already always existed,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: but they've been in isolated silos outside of traditional finance.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: The incredible thing about this technology is they can be
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: brought together and you're starting to see some interesting combinations emerge.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure the meme coin stock pairing that's been
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: driving a lot of the excitement on Robinhood is a
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: persistent theme or a short term theme, but that's the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: kind of thing. unusual pairing that I think you're going
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: to see more of, and it will surprise people. It
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: will feel odd to people, but it's how you sort
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: of stumble your way into interesting new primitives, and I
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: think we're going to get there.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Talking about interesting primitives, let's go over to vaults real quick,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: because this is something that we're tracking pretty heavily. You've
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: got Steakhouse Prime pretty much controlling the top slot. You guys,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: of course, are starting to come up the ranks. Is
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Bitwise gunning for Steakhouse here?
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Look, I think of these great early pioneers in vaults
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: like Steakhouse and Gauntlet as friends. Bitwise wants... We think
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: this market can 100x. If it does, I think we'll
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: all be very successful. So we admire the businesses that
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: they've built. In some sense, we're competitors, of course, but mostly...
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: we're growing the pie and bringing in more customers.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I love those answers.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, of course, of course, underneath the surface, Paul,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I want to win. You know, that's the way they
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: want to win too. But I do think the pie
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: will grow, you know, substantially.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: All right, let's go over to our lightning round. Matt,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: we always love to do this with you. The first
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: question we have is Circle is the best rate hike
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: token to watch. What do you think?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Ooh, rate hike token. Yeah, that's a pretty good play.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I'll take it.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, try to fight yield farmers. September 15th will shock
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the world. Do you think that's the case? I think
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: you're leaning more towards, we may not get, this might
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: be a nothing burger.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's a nothing burger. I think we're
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: in the great muddle. I think the Fed is not
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: the primary actor in the market right now.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Interesting, all right. Well, this is in reference to clarity
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: on September 15th.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, sorry. I'm thinking of two things. No. Look,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's higher than, maybe edge me toward the middle.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I think it's higher than the polymarket odds, but if
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: I had to make an even 50-50 bet, I think
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: in the current political climate, the ethics clause makes it
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: very hard for Democrats to align with this, and I'm
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: like a cautious no.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of with you there, but I'm optimistic,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: but I just don't know if it's going to stick.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Here we go. Which asset has sexier appeal at... and
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: tokenization unlock for retail. Do you think it's going to
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: be equities or commodities?
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Equities, man, put me on the far left there. Uh,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: people love stocks and, uh, they will love tokenized stocks
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: even more.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: But even with oil and gold and all this other
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: stuff I can trade out there, not as much.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You're going to, you're going to see that. You're
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: going to see that blip up and down. I wouldn't
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: be surprised to see like tokenized copper have its moment.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Um, Pentagon Materials, Rare Earths, Uranium. But I think those
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: are short-term flashy. I think if you think about what's
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: happening on Robinhood chain, people love these stocks.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Trad flop season begins. This is the launch of
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: gated products. and chains will be a rude awakening for TradFi.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Do you think that could occur?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I agree with that. I agree with that. I'm sure
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: the TradFi comes in and disrupts things. There's just no
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: record in the market of that being true.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Meme coins keep being underestimated by the suits.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Not you. Definitely agree with that.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: You're a suit, I would say, but I don't think
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: you are.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I definitely, yeah, look at me.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: 100%.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think, I think traditional finance is
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: out of touch with the strength of meme culture. I
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: think they're very out of touch with the strength of
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: social trading. I think that's a trend that's here to stay.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And likely we're like any two of that. And that's
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: not even being discussed in the August halls of Wall Street.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: So I think I'm very much in agreement.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: The change is here. Market is already expecting a fee
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: switch on Morpho. Should we ape in?
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: I'm.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I'm bullish on all the major DeFi protocols and Morpho
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: is a leader in that space, so I like it.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: All right, DCA. All right, here we go. Bitwise should
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: plant a flag right now on the Robinhood chain ASAP.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I can't reveal my go-to-market, but we think about Robinhood
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: chain every day.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to put you there, but I'm going
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to say, of course, yes, you're going to be there.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Bitwise Jupiter vaults on Solana will outperform the ETH base vaults.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: We're already seeing that right now.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Ooh, that's an interesting one. I don't know. I don't know.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: That's a tough one for me. Split me down the middle.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: You're down the middle. I think likely. All right, here
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: we go. Attention is liquidity. The GTA 6 launch will
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: benefit Solana and Robinhood the most.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I like that one. That sounds right to me.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: All right, I like it. Are you a GTA 6 player?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I am not. I'm not. I'm aware of the phenomenon.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: But I do think attention is liquidity. And I think
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: there's a billion ideas that can span off of that.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And it aligns with these trends in the market.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. We talked about this on the pre-show.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Coinbase is probably having an internal identity crisis right now.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: This has somewhat been abandoned by the degens. And it
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: may be because you look at the way Vlad has
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: dealt with this market, and then you look at the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: way Brian has gone. It's two different games. Do you
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: think they've got a simple fix in order, or do
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: you think it'd have to be radical, like Armstrong growing
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: a Mohawk or something?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Look, I'm actually bullish on Coinbase. I would call it
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: a simple fix. I think they sometimes move slowly, but
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: then they really arrive and deliver. And I think their
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: revenue is going to grow pretty well. Broadly speaking, I'd
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: be longhood and coin and short. the TradFi people who
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: aren't trying to make this transition. Between hood and coin,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: I think that's a tougher one. But I like that
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: you want them to grow a little.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to say a beard, maybe, you know,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of get that cool hipster look, you know,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: get back into the DJing. I don't know if it
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: can be done, but, you know, Coinbase needs to become
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: cool again. Michael Saylor will have to conjure up more
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: DeFi products to stay relevant. Do you think that will happen?
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Do I think he'll conjure them up? No, I do
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: not think he'll conjure them up. I think he's staying
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: focused on stretch and strategy.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Terry Duffy, forced to partner with Hyperliquid by the end
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: of 2027.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Dude, probably yes, man. Probably yes. If that day comes, Matt. Well,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I don't mean it specifically for that, but I do
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: think the derivatives markets have woken up that their world
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: is changing really rapidly. And so I think they're going
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: to have to adapt in some format. And what you've seen, again,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: with Robinhood integrating into these DeFi protocols, I think is
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: a roadmap that other people are going to pay attention to.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: So all of this would have sounded strange four years ago.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: You would have been dismissed for even mentioning it. Now
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: it's within the Overton window, and I suspect it gets
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: more and more possible feeling over time.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Well, Robin Hood has been a little bit of an
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: outlier in terms of their strategy, really forever. Vlad has
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: been very edgy, always pushing the boundary. So for him
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: to make that step was pretty impressive. Did you anticipate that?
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: No, I really didn't. It sort of flies against a
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: core belief I have of brokerages, which is there's a
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: brokerage for every generation and it doesn't change. Robinhood was
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: sort of the brokerage for millennials, the same way E-Trade
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: was for Gen X and maybe Schwab was for boomers.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was pegged in that space. The
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: ability to reinvent itself, to capture this younger on-chain market,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: is really incredible, particularly because underneath the surface, Robinhood is
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: actually also going upstream and targeting richer demographics and actually
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: targeting the institutional space with some acquisitions in the advisor space.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: So look, I think they're actually building a financial giant.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I've called it a generational buy and hold. If I
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: had to pick a financial stock to buy today and
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: own 10 years, Robinhood would be it because they've shown
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: the ability to adapt multiple times.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: All right. Here we go. Matt Hogan is already mentally
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: bored of ETFs. Vault life only or you're going to
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: know people still use.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Look, yeah, we love ETFs. We're going to launch more ETFs.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: It's a big part of our business. But I think
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: in the next decade, you're going to see Bitwise do
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: more on chain than it does does elsewhere. But we
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: still love ETFs for sure. But you can put me
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: edge edge me towards vault life.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right. I'm definitely all the way in on
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Vault Life for Bitwise and you and Hunter and all
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: the team over there. We're watching closely.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: It's the direction to travel.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: We're watching closely.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Hey, listen, thanks for coming in today. We appreciate it.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: If you like this video, hit like and subscribe, drop
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: a comment down below, and also join our free private
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: member group. The link is in the description.