Latest / The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick / The Role of a Land Use Attorney in Development with Kelley Morris Salvatore - TLP173

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The Role of a Land Use Attorney in Development with Kelley Morris Salvatore - TLP173 · The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to have a good engineer or surveyor depending on what you're looking to do.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not using an attorney, I think it's important to get in early to the town hall or city hall to talk with the relevant staff.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: It could be the building official, zoning official, planning department, potentially the mayor, town administrator to get buy-in, you know, depending on the complexity of the development.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to get your team together and reach out to the municipality to get the support that you want.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, what's going on, everybody?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Ryan Glick.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have an interview episode for you today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And joining me is Kelly Morris Salvatore.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: She's a partner at Darrow Everett.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me, Kelly.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ryan.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love having conversations with uh with our legal friends.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think we have uh we have people on who sometimes will refer to uh you know attorneys as the necessary evil, but I think there's a lot more that we can uh a lot more value we can get from these conversations and everything, and and you have a lot to offer.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really excited about our conversation today.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think where I want to start is uh, you know, you chose a path of getting into the legal field.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm curious, kind of a two-parter here.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious on why did you get into uh the legal field to begin with?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then also why did you choose land use as one of your specialties?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I think I've always wanted to be an attorney.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um my path is a little bit different than others.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I did go to law school a little bit late when I was 27, became a lawyer at 30.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: The first firm that I joined in Rhode Island, I had previously been in Boston for a couple of years.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and this happens with a lot of attorneys.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: They needed somebody to help with land use matters.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started doing it, I really just fell in love with it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I like um dealing with municipalities.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I also work for the government.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a solicitor.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really a great niche for me.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been doing it for now about 30 years.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's and I've I've also been uh a planner for three and a half years.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: The now governor, who was the mayor of my hometown, needed somebody to step in and do planning work for him.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I worked for him for three and a half years and then went back into the legal field.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So uh being on both sides of it then.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So being being a planner, but also uh being on the attorney side in land use, do you feel like that has provided you with uh some insight that maybe others don't necessarily get since they maybe go straight into being an attorney and that's that's their focus, not necessarily on the land planning side?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely think that not only uh for me, I have the insight for you know government and how it works, but I also think for my clients, I I can give them a perspective of uh what town staff is thinking and what is reasonable for a town staff to think uh or or require, but but also be, you know, serious about what the client needs.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think my experience on both sides is very beneficial, uh, for, like I said, for both me and the client.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we have people listening in that are at various stages of the development experience.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got people who are aspirational developers listening in, but we also have people who have maybe been developing for a while.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: But because we have um kind of that broad range of people listening in, I do like to ask questions that for some may feel like uh it's a no-brainer they know the answer to it.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: But um, for people who aren't sure what a land use attorney does or what where they come into the picture, can you describe that?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important for people that are looking to develop property to bring a land use attorney in as early as possible.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even I work on some very minor projects, subdivisions, very small subdivisions, and it can get complicated with the laws and what is allowed, you know, for even a small subdivision.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: We help them navigate through the process.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, again, in Rhode Island, I have great relationships with town and city staff.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I can pick up the phone and make sure that what we are going to propose is something that they can support, which is really important.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: So getting a land use attorney in early, early and often is really important because, you know, what I find is when I'm brought in after the fact, a record has already been established to some extent, possibly a formal decision that has to be appealed.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And now I might not be working with a record that I can support in court at that point.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you're just consulting with an attorney uh on various rules, regulations, ordinances, it's it's important to get involved early with an attorney.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So is that literally?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have this piece of land that I'm interested in purchasing.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do this project on it.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so the idea being that if you bring in a land use attorney at that stage, you can better understand whether you're gonna be able to do the project that you want on that piece of land based on various, you know, details or attributes of that land.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you would describe it?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, most of my clients, I start out with, you know, I might charge them a small fee to do a zoning analysis.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I go through the ordinances and the regulations and I will tell them if the use that they're proposing is allowed or allowed by a special use permit, whether it needs variances, what type of process they'll have to go through.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's administrative through a staff review.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, you know, it can get as complicated as three stages of review uh with a planning board, a planning commission.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: There could be a council action with a zone change, but that original contact and advice is always about what you can do.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like, you know, having talked to, you know, I've had conversations with over a hundred, you know, different developers over the last couple of years on the show.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, one of the common things that we hear is just around some of the challenges that they have working with the municipalities and um getting approval or going from municipality A over to municipality B who have things that are a little bit different.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to get into some of those details uh here in just a second.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: But before we do that, I do want to ask you really quick for those who aren't familiar with your company, Darrow Everett, could you just describe what the company does?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we really do everything.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's great because it is a full-service law firm.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we have uh a litigation department, which I'm a part of, but you know, my practice is focused more on municipal work and land use.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: It does get to litigation on appeals.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we have a family law practice, we have a state planning practice, we have a real estate department that's excellent.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I work with them often because obviously developers who are proposing development are also generally buying, uh creating condominium associations and things like that.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: We have corporate mergers and acquisitions, uh, we are absolutely a full service law firm, and we have offices, I would say, all over the East Coast from Providence, Boston, New York, uh, North South Carolina, and a couple of offices, three offices now in Florida.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So do you do uh work?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh are you mainly representing in those states where you operate or are you operating around the country?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: I um focus on Rhode Island.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: I am licensed to practice in Massachusetts as well.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I do have a couple of matters in Massachusetts, but you know, I am very busy in Rhode Island, so I really don't need to practice anywhere else.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, you know, like I just mentioned about uh a lot of the people that I've heard from in the past and some of the challenges that they've experienced with their own local municipalities, wherever they're at around the country, I think there's there's challenges.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: What have you seen with developers that they often misunderstand when working with the municipalities?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I can think of a couple of clients right now that come to me from other states uh that think it's going to go a certain way, whether it's even just the process, right?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, I mean, I do get involved in taxation.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And every state and every community is going to be different.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's my job to make sure uh we are kept on track, of course, with my paraprofessionals as well, uh, making sure that the proper notice goes out.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I guess part of my role is absolutely to educate my client on process and make sure they understand going into it, the timing of the process, what is involved.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: I work very closely with engineers, obviously, to make sure that they're getting what they need done with our state agencies, whether it's DOT or DEM, you know, that environmental and roads.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Part of my job is to educate our clients on what the process is and timing.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Timing is so important.
• 9:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned, I think at the outset when we were talking, you had mentioned the situation where a, you know, a developer may come to you after they've already been working with the city and now there's a record that may make it more difficult for you to step in and be able to uh get the land use situation uh straightened out.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the most common, I guess, situation that causes a project to get stuck when working with the city?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or what have you seen to be the most common reason that a project might just get halted?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, lately, I mean, you know, I have several projects pending right now.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: We we do have a lot of NIMBYism.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are certain, usually smaller communities that just don't want development.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, again, most of what I'm doing right now is housing development.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you've heard this many times.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: People just don't want to see development, especially like like I said, in rural, more smaller towns.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got people and and sometimes town staff that are really doing everything they can to deny the project.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of people, I don't have a lot of uh situations where uh my my clients go on it on their own before hiring me.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: But when that happens, I am concerned because we have to make a record.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and that it's not only just tying up the project, there's a a concept called administrative finality.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a denial, you cannot submit the same project after that unless there's a significant change of circumstances.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that doesn't just tie you up.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: That could kill a project.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: The NIMBYism is definitely something we've talked about a lot on the show.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels like with, you know, in the age of social media, it has become more prominent just because there's so many, it's just easier for people to organize and make each other aware of certain projects or certain zoning changes that are being recommended.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so you end up having um a lot of loud voices show up at meetings and oppose projects and everything.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen similar things happen out in Rhode Island uh as far as some of the projects uh that are trying to get pushed through?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: All the time.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, you know, it could be a hundred people showing up with the uh symbolic pitchforks.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and my first job, again, talking about housing, is to educate even the public about what low and moderate income housing really is, because in their minds, it's a certain demographic, and that's just not the case.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Low and moderate income housing, people, whether they're renting or buying, uh, they have to have an income.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the price, whether it's a sale or or a rental rate, is consistent with their with their income levels.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's my first job.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've had neighbors come up to me after the fact and say, thank you.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for letting us know what this is, because I really didn't understand it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's a lot of NIMBYism.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you you had mentioned the communication side of it.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think that's really the most important aspect, you know, early on in some of these projects is making sure that you're, you know, clearly communicating to the community, also, I suppose, to the staff and to the uh, you know, the counselor, whoever, the commun uh whoever's gonna be, you know, voting on the project as far as approvals.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that the communication often gets overlooked potentially?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I try to get in, again, early, not just with attorneys, but I take every opportunity to get before whether it's staff or or a board to do pre-applications because I'd rather my clients know what's coming.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes it's something as simple as landscaping that people don't want to see what's what's happening on the development site.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, things I I one of the things I always say is Abervitees are uh a big help in uh in in buffering.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you you when you do a pre-application meeting and you invite the neighbors, we also do a lot of neighborhood meetings because especially the large projects, because we want to know what their concerns are.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can address them, how much easier is that gonna be when we get to the formal review, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and well, and speaking of the formal review, so when you know you're thinking about the submittal, what you're gonna actually submit and what's gonna be reviewed and everything, do you have a certain approach that you take to make sure that it's the strongest case possible?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And is that really just making sure that you're checking the boxes of like meeting with the community, um, taking a look at some of the finer details and stuff on the project itself?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are the, you know, what are the common parts of projects that are pushed back on and everything like that?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Are there certain things that stand out as stronger applications versus ones that are a little bit weaker from your experience?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I mean, you know, talking with the people that are interested, right?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: You you want to do that.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, and again, you probably know this, traffic is always an issue.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to have a strong traffic report and a strong traffic engineer who can testify and and in support of the application.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, strong applications.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, for very large projects, I kind of insist that the client provide renderings of what it's gonna look like because people want to visualize what they're gonna be seeing.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had a recent project where we actually did a 3D kind of drive-by where the public could see on the screen what they'll be looking at from the roadway.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Those things that became a very strong application, in my opinion.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I also put together a summary of all the standards.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there are legal standards uh to approve these projects.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And once we're done with our presentation, you know, usually, uh especially on large projects, it's going to be more than one meeting.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So before the final meeting, I put together a a letter, usually a quite lengthy letter, about the standards that have to be approved and how we've met those standards.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, but pretty pictures are really important.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's like staging a house, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: People, people have a hard time understanding what it could look like, you know, for when they move into a spot.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so when, yeah, uh, that makes sense that when a project is being proposed, if you don't provide them a visual of what it's gonna look like, they're gonna imagine something that's probably not what the project really is gonna be.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it makes a lot of sense.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we also do site visits, Ryan, so that they can see the topography and anything that we're, you know, that we have to clear and things like that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that can be helpful.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes neighbors will find things they don't like, though.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like they'll find stone walls.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're gonna get rid of this stone wall.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the site visits are a little Yeah.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm on I'm on the fence with those.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how about in in Rhode Island in general?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have a lot of housing reform or anything that's going on out there now?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know, you know, we're recording this in early May 2026, so things can obviously change between now and when this releases, but uh what what's going on in the state of Rhode Island right now?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the General Assembly meets from early January through about mid to late June.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And for the last three sessions, this the this is the fourth, uh, there is legislation that has been enacted over the last three years, and there's pending legislation for this session as well, clearly intended to promote housing development.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the General Assembly has done things to make the review process more efficient, more timely.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they've pushed state approvals to the latter part of the review so that you're not hung up waiting for a state agency to review your project.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: They they've taken away some of the um the standards for review for variances and special use permits.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: They've added things like adaptive reuse.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So of non-residential buildings, we can now, you know, there could be some review, but it's it could also be administrative to encourage housing in in unused, vacant, non-residential buildings.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: They've also been strong on accessory dwelling units.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So they've given property owners the right to build these accessory dwelling units, and they're not in-law apartments anymore.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: They are units that you can rent on your property uh within certain parameters.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, the the General Assembly in Rhode Island has taken a lot of steps over the last three years and including this session to make housing development uh more efficient uh and and easier to get through the process.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what drove a lot of that?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always curious because I know, again, we have people listening in from around the country.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so they may be interested in how they could potentially, you know, advocate or get involved to help their own state try to be more developer and builder friendly.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know who organized in Rhode Island or what the process was to really try to bring a lot of these topics to the forefront?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think the General Assembly and actually the speaker of the House is the champion of this legislation.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give him a shout out, Joe Shakarchi.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he's a great guy.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: He he is a land use attorney, although he's not really practicing anymore.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a much more important uh job.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: But he recognized that there is a housing crisis, just like there is across the nation.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he's put together land use commissions, affordable housing commissions to to dig in and research and see what works in other uh states.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's been a strong, you know, process and a very important process in Rhode Island to encourage more housing development.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's always, again, like I said, I think that's always interesting.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um kind of going back to the the topic of you know working with some of the local boards um for approvals and everything, um, I think if I read it right, that you I know you mentioned you're mainly working on um housing projects uh right now, but in the past you've worked on all different, you know, real estate asset classes and everything.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Are the are the proposals that you submit generally similar when you're working on different asset classes?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whether it's uh, you know, mixed use or residential or you know, affordable housing, or are there certain things with each of those projects that you have to make sure you call out or or focus on um when submitting those to uh to the board?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope I understand your question.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do work on other developments, commercial, mixed use, solar, those types of things.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I just had a I'm working on a mixed-use project where we needed a zone change.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So there, you know, again, you have to look at each property as a unique piece of property and the zoning and meet with, in this case, the the town council uh to get their support uh for this relatively large mixed-use development with retail and residential components.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I hope that answered your question.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, absolutely.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I didn't do a very good job explaining.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: What I was trying to get at was, and I you did answer the question, but I was what I was trying to get at is, you know, we have people listening in who may um want to work on different types of projects, but you know, they find a they might go about a residential project one way and then they try to do a commercial project and use the same format of how they're trying to present it for a commercial project, but maybe there's other things they need to take into account.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think you answered it by saying that, hey, every property is different.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: You have to take into account those differences of that property when you're putting together the application.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then just to follow up on that, I think the process is the same.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but obviously there's gonna be differences and depending on what you're proposing.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh if I remember it correctly, you've you've worked uh are you currently working for a municipality as well or a township, or have you in the past?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: You have, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that every day right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked I've worked for several municipalities in the past.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right now I'm I am the town solicitor for my hometown, actually, which happens a lot in Rhode Island.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I've also worked for the City of Providence, representing their city plan commission, the town of North Providence.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've been And special counsel uh in a couple of other communities for large projects that the solicitor can't handle.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I've been I've been involved with several municipalities.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've always felt like you know, developers should consider getting involved in their own uh communities as well, like whether they're trying to, you know, get on a zoning and planning commission or they're just to understand that side of the business and uh also have some development representative on the board versus uh not having that understanding of development.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see it the same way from your experiences?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you think it helps knowing that you've had that experience?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of talked about it earlier, but what has your experience been like with that?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I do I have had occasion to experience um developers on a board where they're where where they're also doing business.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a little tough because you have to recuse from so some things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, if it's your development, you're not you're not hearing it.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I there might even be an ethical concern with that as I think about it.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: What I see more of is the professionals like engineers, surveyors, people like that who will volunteer to be on these boards.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in turn, you know, they're working with the the developers, and um, that happens.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I see that a lot.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, one of my first forays into land use was I was appointed to the Cumberland Zoning Board, and I was the chair.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so yeah, it happens all the time.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Attorneys too.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know many attorneys who sit on their local zoning or planning boards.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: What's is there anything that you learned from uh, you know, sitting on those boards and being involved on the other side of the table there that you think could provide value to developers when they're thinking about what this, you know, what is going through the city's mind when reviewing a project?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, on both sides, I think we we want to be clear about what the regulations are and what's expected.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that most of the time town staff is just trying to do the right thing, most of the time.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that if you meet with them and understand their perspective, again, you may be conceding to relatively minor things, but you're gonna make the project better.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna, you know, it's not gonna cost a lot.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, obviously there are some planners who overreach and we have to deal with that, but but for the most part, I think that planners are just trying to support a good project.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So meeting with them, having an open mind, and you know, just just having the conversation about what they want and what's important to them is helpful.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have over the years, do you have a project that has been maybe uh one that's been the most interesting to work on or one that you can talk about a little bit?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure how much you can share on some of these projects that you've been involved in, but uh do you have any projects that you can talk about?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I just did one in South, I'll call it South County, uh, where the my client had purchased an old industrial building uh that they repurposed for their their company.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: They came up from from uh let's say the north, you know, the middle eastern coast.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um this this industrial use previously required tons of parking.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a thousand parking spaces.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So they had uh they have no need for that.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: They only had about a hundred employees.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we use that unused area and we just got approval, master plan approval, which is the first phase of approval for 275 apartment units.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's great.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's near a train station.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna provide much, again, much needed housing for that area.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's near a lot of businesses, it's near a uh a university.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that that's a great project that I just worked on, and I'm continuing to work on it.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Another one is there's a project that I'm working on with a client who who is in the process of purchase purchasing several hundred acres of land in a former uh sand and gravel operation that is now under receivership, which is like a bankruptcy.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: We use receiverships in Rhode Island.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just had a meeting on it today.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we are developing, again, lots of housing, working with partners, but there's a lot of challenges to that because it is in a receivership.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: There are creditors involved.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're working closely with the town on tax issues and fees on utilities and things like that.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very challenging uh development, but very interesting for me to work on.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they sound interesting.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that first one, too, I think is a good uh example of we have a lot of parking around the country.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of parking lots because I think parking is another one of those topics that uh developers talk about quite a bit because different cities have different requirements, and a lot of times there's a lot more parking uh required than what they truly need.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that example was a good one because they were able to take some of that space where there was all that parking and repurpose it into a completely different project.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of makes developers developers should be thinking about some of these properties that do have a massive amount of parking that is no longer needed for the new use of that building, that that land can be used for other things potentially.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: You see that all over the place where like, you know, old malls or we we generally just had more parking, you know, 20, 30 years ago, and we don't need it as much.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It people just aren't traveling on the roads and and parking at uh brick and mortar, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're right, they're buying online.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of that space can be used for better things.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's go ahead and shift into the last segment, which is the lightning round.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got uh five questions for you here.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, first one what advice would you give to a first-time developer?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we've talked about it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's important to have a good engineer or surveyor, depending on what you're looking to do.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And just a conversation with a land use attorney.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and if you're not using an attorney, I think it's important to get in early to the town hall or city hall to talk with the relevant staff.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It could be the building official, zoning official, planning department, potentially the mayor or town administrator, uh, to get buy-in, you know, depending on the complexity of the of the development.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it's important to get your team together and reach out to the municipality uh to to get the support that you want.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: All right, second one.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: What's your favorite type of project to work on?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I do think it's housing.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I it's challenging, but I think I I think it's my favorite because I think I'm doing good work uh and and you know, providing housing in a in a crisis.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've got kids that are old enough to be buying or renting and they struggle, you know?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's important that we build our housing stock.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think that's my favorite project.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, there's more challenging projects when you get involved in zone changes and and and that sort of thing.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I I enjoy everything I do really.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right, third one.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's usually the first sign that a project is in trouble?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would say you get that information from staff.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: We can always, as professionals, we can always put a good project together, but we really it's really important to get support from staff unless they're totally off base and then we deal with it.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: The town staff is it's very important to uh to get on board.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's where you see things falling apart.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, would you say that it's if you're clearly communicating with the city, there really shouldn't be any surprises, you know, coming.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: There shouldn't be.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: There sh there shouldn't be.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, not everybody is is has the same kind of personality or strategy.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to be up front with them and I expect it.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I expect it back.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we you know, aga as professionals.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Fourth one.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: What skill has mattered the most in your own career?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Communication.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely communication.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's whether it's with the client or whether it's with neighbors or staff, communication and relationships are, I think, very important.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then preparation is is second to that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: All right, last one here, and this kind of comes full circle a little bit to what I said at the way beginning of this, but what's one thing you wish more developers understood about your side of the table?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that we have to navigate lots of different personalities and procedures.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say that, it's it's your own team too, right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're working with engineers, land use consultants, potentially monitor monitoring agents for LMI units.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: You you have to navigate them, you have to coordinate with them, and everybody has a role, and the developer needs to understand what those roles are, who's responsible for what, and that we're all on the same team.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Kelly, what's the best way for people listening in to connect with you and also to learn more about Darrow Everett?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a wonderful website, DarrowEverett.com.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's uh information about all the attorneys on there and what we do.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's a great, uh, it's a great website.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you can uh contact me through through that website with by email.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, those of you listening in, uh, if you look down in the description for this episode, you'll see a link there to the show notes page.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And on the show notes page, you will see a link to the Darrow Everett website and you can access that uh information there.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Kelly, I really appreciate you hopping on here and uh sharing some of your knowledge and experiences in the industry.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, super interesting.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ryan.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was fun.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: All right, guys, that's all for this episode.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not already subscribed, please click that button.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to have you back for the next one.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we will talk to you all next week.