Latest / Your Estate Matters / Episode 69 - Estate Planning for Your Digital Life and Crypto Wealth with Demetre Vasilounis
Transcript
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Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today ..."><meta name="google" content="notranslate"><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, user-scalable=no, initial-scale=1.0, minimum-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0"><meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge;"><meta name="fragment" content="!"><meta name="referrer" content="origin"><title>YEM Demetre Vasilounis Transcript - Google Docs</title><link rel="shortcut icon" href="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/images/docs-favicon-2026-v2.ico"><link rel="chrome-webstore-item" href="https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/apdfllckaahabafndbhieahigkjlhalf"><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">_docs_webfonts_fontFaces = null; _docs_webfonts_iframe_fontFaces = null;DOCS_timing['wpid']=new Date().getTime();</script><style 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Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it\u0027s estate related, we\u0027ll be talking about it. We\u0027re having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. \n\nHello and welcome to Your Estate Matters. I\u0027m Nicole Garton. Today, we\u0027re talking about something that affects almost every Canadian but still gets overlooked in most estate plans digital assets. Think about your own life for a moment. Your email accounts, your social media profiles, your online banking, your photos stored in the cloud, your loyalty points, your streaming accounts, maybe even cryptocurrency. So much of our lives now exists online, and yet most will say nothing about what happens to those assets on death or incapacity that creates real problems. I see this firsthand in the estates we administer at Heritage Trust, an executor steps in, and suddenly they\u0027re trying to navigate privacy laws, platform policies and missing passwords just to access accounts that hold real financial or sentimental value.\n\nNicole Garton 00:01:17 Sometimes the information is simply gone. My guest today is Demetre Vasilounis. Demetre is a lawyer and trust and estate practitioner who recently joined the RBC Wealth Management\u0027s High net worth planning services team. He has extensive experience and trust and estate law and is widely recognized for his work on digital assets, blockchain technology and estate planning. He has spoken at the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners Canada National Conference, and has become one of the leading voices in Canada on the legal and practical challenges digital assets create for executors, trustees and families. \n\nDemetre, thank you so much for joining us. We are so lucky to have your incredible expertise and to share it with our listeners.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:02:06 Thank you very much for having me today, Nicole. I\u0027m very excited to be here. I\u0027ve been looking forward to it. So thank you.\n\nNicole Garton 00:02:11 So first of all, I want to say congratulations. You\u0027ve got a really interesting new role at RBC. Do you want to tell people what you\u0027re doing?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:02:17 Absolutely.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:02:18 Yeah. So I\u0027m a senior manager of high net worth planning services in RBC\u0027s high net worth planning services group. We fall under the Family Office services umbrella. And essentially my role is to sit down with RBC\u0027s clients, like their investment clients, and talk to them about trusts and estates and tax and issues that they may be facing. Right. So this is like a value add service that RBC adds to its investment clients. On our team, there are some licensed lawyers, there are CPAs, there are charter business evaluators. So depending on what the client\u0027s sort of needs are, we pair the client with sort of the right professional and they sit down and sort of just talk to the client, identify issues, and then kind of support the client. You know, I don\u0027t implement wills or powers of attorney or trusts anymore. I sort of put together a plan for the client and make suggestions and recommendations based on what the client\u0027s needs are, what the client\u0027s goals are, etc. they get the benefit of having, you know, legal and accounting and financial professionals without having to pay the extra fees.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:03:12 Also, I think just given some of the complexity of high net worth and ultra high net worth matters, it\u0027s always helpful to have another set of eyes, look at a plan or look at a particular situation. I think, especially on the tax side, when it comes to dealing with CRA. You know, I might have had particular experiences that maybe somebody else hasn\u0027t seen. And likewise, another professional who maybe deals with CRA on a regular basis. Maybe they\u0027ve seen certain things or they\u0027ve experienced certain things that I\u0027m not attuned to. So I think the benefit to the clients and to the professionals, frankly, is, you know, being on a team and being able to sort of bounce ideas and bounce experiences off one another, I think is super valuable. But yeah, it\u0027s we\u0027re a national team. I\u0027m based in Ontario, so I service the entire province. So I\u0027m frequently traveling for this role as well, which I frankly enjoy. It\u0027s been really good. And of course RBC is a very involved organization in the trust and estates 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Now, again, I think there is more visibility when it comes to digital assets. I think the big industry events, the trade events, the conferences, you know, you\u0027re seeing more seminars about digital assets at these events. So I don\u0027t think that our community is ignorant to these issues. But I think beyond asking the basic questions, which again, I don\u0027t think all practitioners do, but beyond asking the basic questions, I think many practitioners don\u0027t know where to go or don\u0027t know what the next steps are or who to contact. So I see that as sort of one of the bigger challenges.\n\nNicole Garton 00:11:09 And we see heritage trust, the consequences of plans that don\u0027t encompass it. I think we have two current estates where there are crypto assets and we do not have the seed key. Oh, and unlike the regular bank, there\u0027s no customer service if you don\u0027t have the seed key.\n\nNicole Garton 00:11:27 So we\u0027ll get into that. But first let\u0027s start with the basics. So for our listeners, when we use the term digital assets like what are we actually talking about.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:11:36 Yeah. So I think you just brought up a good point about there not being a customer service department. So I think I like to categorize digital assets into sort of one of two buckets. Right. Custodial digital assets and non-custodial digital assets. And I think the approach that you take in the planning depends on whether it\u0027s a custodial digital asset or a non-custodial digital asset. So when I think of custodial digital assets, I think of email accounts, you know, social media accounts, frankly, any account that is facilitated by some type of third party or any asset, quote unquote, that is facilitated by a third party. So even if you have a website, for example, you usually have to go through some sort of domain hosting service, right? So if you own the domain apple.com, for example, that\u0027s facilitated by someone else, that\u0027s a custodial digital asset as well.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:12:20 If you have clients who are social media influencers, right. And they\u0027re generating revenue from a social media account, you know, you might want to categorize that revenue as part of the digital asset, the social media, digital asset, even files that you create yourself. If you store the file on, like a file sharing, like a Dropbox or something along those lines, that\u0027s a custodial digital asset. So you can think of custodial digital assets as sort of, again, anything that is facilitated by a third party. I guess anywhere that does have a customer service department, maybe that\u0027s the easier way to think about it. And then there are the non-custodial digital assets. And I think first and foremost, primarily it is the cryptocurrency, crypto assets where you\u0027re not using an exchange. And we\u0027ll talk about, you know, hot storage, warm storage, cold storage. Right. But the crypto that\u0027s sort of under self custody, as we call it sometimes, right. That I think is an example of a non-custodial digital asset.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:13:06 In theory, anything else that doesn\u0027t necessarily require a third party to facilitate the transfer. So let\u0027s say you have files like let\u0027s say even you just wrote a document, right? Or took a picture and you\u0027ve stored it on a device like a cold storage device. So it\u0027s not connected to the internet. It doesn\u0027t, you know, require internet access to sort of gain access to the file. I think that\u0027s potentially a non-custodial digital asset as well. And then there, you know, there\u0027s sort of other classes, but I think those are the sort of the two categories I want to sort of highlight as well, that\u0027s the easy way of categorizing it. 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So if we think about other intangible assets that we\u0027re more familiar with, let\u0027s take intellectual property, for example, right there, intangible. You can\u0027t touch them. But a copyright, for example, like Nicole, if you write a book which I know you have, right. If you write a book, you have copyright in that book, right? So it\u0027s not a physical thing that you can touch, but it\u0027s a right that you have. So if somebody tries to republish your book and your ideas and your views without your permission, you can go after them potentially. Right? So there\u0027s the custodial non-custodial categories. But then there\u0027s also this idea of digital assets being a record as well.\n\nNicole Garton 00:14:36 So let\u0027s maybe now that we\u0027re doing definitions like drill into crypto. So what does crypto mean? And I think people sometimes think it\u0027s synonymous with Bitcoin, which isn\u0027t exactly correct. And can you tell us what you mean when you talk about hot storage, warm storage cold storage…\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:14:52 Yeah. So Bitcoin I mean it is a crypto asset. But it\u0027s not the only crypto asset. There are many, many, many other crypto assets out there primarily folks are familiar with cryptocurrencies right. So Bitcoin, Ethereum, Dogecoin…you know that sort of stuff. there\u0027s also NFTs, which you don\u0027t hear about too much anymore. Right. But those are also crypto assets.\n\nNicole Garton 00:15:12 Do you want to explain to listeners who don\u0027t know what NFTs are?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:15:15 Sorry. Yes. So NFTs are non-fungible tokens. And they also take advantage of blockchain technology, which I\u0027ll explain shortly. But NFTs are really. If I had to describe them, they\u0027re a serialization of different types of electronic things, I guess. So commonly you see NFTs in the art space, right? So folks can purchase or trade for, you know, serialized image files, but you could potentially serialize other files as well. So like music files, for example, you could have an NFT of an audio file, right? But the idea is that because of the way the blockchain operates, serialization is possible because you would have a way of sort of independently verifying that if you own one of like three NFTs of like the Board Ape collection, you guys, you probably heard of that, those NFTs, right? If you own like one of three of those, you\u0027ll be able to verify that by way of the blockchain.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:16:06 So non-fungible just means you can\u0027t defraud the blockchain. You can\u0027t sponge it for, for lack of a better term. Think about cryptocurrencies as sort of more akin to traditional fiat currencies, and NFTs as more akin to collectibles. The one side note I\u0027ll make about NFTs, just for listeners who are not familiar, is that I think one of the reasons they\u0027re not as popular as they once were is because when it comes to collectibles, and I\u0027ve written about this topic as well, but I think people like physical collectibles, and it\u0027s different when it\u0027s just an image file on a computer. It\u0027s great that you have it serialized, I guess. Then you can verify that you own it. Maybe there\u0027s a prestige factor to it, but given that it\u0027s an image that can sort of be replicated as opposed to a physical thing that you can see, I think that sort of took away from the value of NFTs. That\u0027s what sort of people came to the realization of that. But both of these sort of categories operate via blockchain technology, and I have a whole presentation on blockchain and crypto assets and how that works.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:16:58 But the reason that they\u0027re so valuable, and the reason that folks place value on crypto assets is because unlike traditional fiat currency, cryptocurrencies can be traded in a way that is decentralized. So it does not rely on a central financial institution or customer service department for lack of a better term. Cryptocurrencies are trustless, so they operate on a consensus based model, which means that if you want a transaction to be verified, you\u0027re going to need consensus from a number of different nodes across the network, like all over the world, to verify that that transaction is legitimate, right? Again, you don\u0027t have to rely on one particular actor. Cryptocurrency transactions are immutable. They\u0027re all recorded on the blockchain. So folks out there may have heard of the blockchain sort of being referred to as a ledger. So there\u0027s a complete record of every blockchain transaction that is out there for each blockchain network. And so it\u0027s a very secure essentially form of transacting. And there\u0027s a lot of value in that. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":22350,"s":"\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:17:57 But as I mentioned, you know, the blockchain networks operate on a consensus based model. And the consensus is with respect to a number of different, very complex mathematical cryptographic transactions that require a lot of processing power and a lot of computing power. Right. So on a large network like Bitcoin\u0027s network, for example, you have people all over the world who are trying to solve these transactions. That\u0027s called cryptocurrency mining, right? They\u0027re trying to solve these transactions because there are rewards. There\u0027s additional Bitcoin for them. So there\u0027s a lot of incentive for folks who are mining Bitcoin to verify legitimate transactions and not verify illegitimate transactions. So all of this is to say, it\u0027s a very secure way of transacting on the blockchain through the use of cryptography and encrypting information and transactions. It represents, again, a secure way for folks to transact. The one additional point I\u0027ll make just with respect to that is that it relies on the use of you\u0027ve probably heard this nickel, and in fact, I know you\u0027ve heard of this because you\u0027re struggling with it right now.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:18:56 Public keys and private keys. So public keys are essentially linked with a public wallet address. So a public key is something that you can share with others in order to transact with them. So if someone wants to send you crypto, you give them your public key, right? Which is, you know, your wallet\u0027s address so they can use the network to send crypto to you. Contrast that with private keys which are not meant to be shared, which are required to basically complete digital signatures that authorize transactions. So essentially, like if we have a transaction, you know, you collect all the transaction data, including the public keys, you put it together into something called a hash. You then use the private key to sign the hash. Right. That creates a digital signature and that creates a sort of secure transaction. Right. And once that transaction is completed, you can\u0027t reverse it. Right. That\u0027s the way the network works. So you need your private key in order to transact, particularly with your own crypto.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:19:46 And so to your point, if you don\u0027t have the private key because the blockchain network is decentralized, because it is trustless, because it is immutable. Right. And because of the way it operates, if you do not have that private key, it is very bad and you might not be able to access your crypto at all for the future. So sorry, that was a lot of information at once, but that\u0027s sort of a Coles notes version of how crypto works.\n\nNicole Garton 00:20:07 That\u0027s okay. So what percentage of Canadians do you imagine actually have crypto?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:20:12 I don\u0027t know the exact number. I think it\u0027s a growing percentage for sure. I think to go to your earlier question, because I realize I didn\u0027t speak to hot storage and cold storage. Right. But the point I want to make is there are many different ways of getting into the crypto market. You can get into the crypto market without even actually employing necessarily hot storage or cold storage because, for example, you could buy Bitcoin ETFs now. Right. So that\u0027s a particular option.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:20:35 But the sort of main ways that we see Canadians owning crypto is either through hot storage or cold storage. And then there\u0027s another alternative warm storage which I want to talk about as well. So hot storage essentially means storage that is connected to the internet right. So typically these are the customer service departments. They\u0027re typically the crypto exchanges. You can actually buy and sell crypto from the exchange right. The exchange is the one that actually has custody of the crypto assets at the end of the day. Right. And it has its own ledger and records and they\u0027re regulated as well. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":26420,"s":"\nNicole Garton 00:21:12 And what are some examples like Coinbase or like what are some examples of it?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:21:16 Coinbase. I like ShakePay because you can shake every day and get a very, very fractional amount of Bitcoin as well. Newton is another popular one. There are many in the US like Kraken, Binance, etc. so there are many, many different exchanges out there.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:21:31 That\u0027s one sort of form of hot storage. You could also just have your own hot wallet. You\u0027re not dealing with an exchange. It\u0027s your own wallet. You still need phrases. So we have this term called seed phrases. Right. So the private key is like this very random jumbled, garbled combination of letters and numbers. And that\u0027s what you need to actually transact. But to make wallets a little more accessible, the technology that these wallets employ allows you to use seed phrases. So they\u0027re, you know, usually like 12 or 6 or 24, probably not six, like usually more 12 to 24 seed phrases that could be like stone, glass, water, you know, cloud, like things like that. Right. Words like that. So you have that combination of those phrases. If you enter it into your wallet, you\u0027re able to access your wallet. The advantage of hot storage is that it\u0027s connected to the internet, and it\u0027s very easy to transact with cryptocurrency when it comes to hot storage. So what we like to say in the crypto space is that if you are going to transact with crypto, it\u0027s good to keep like a smaller quantity of crypto, I would say in your hot wallet, so that if you want to do some trades here and there, you have it there it\u0027s accessible.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:22:35 You don\u0027t have to sort of go through a whole process to access it. Let\u0027s contrast that with cold storage, right. Which is not connected to the internet, which is essentially, you know, it started out with paper wallets. People don\u0027t really use those anymore. But cold storage just basically means that blockchain network generates a public key and a private key for you. And so as long as you have that, you\u0027re able to transact. But if you don\u0027t do anything with that public key and that private key in theory, the theory behind blockchain is that nobody should be able to access or get to your crypto, so long as you don\u0027t use those. I know back in the day, people have gone to sort of extreme lengths where like they generate a paper wallet, they print it out, and then they destroy the printer that they use to print it out. Now there are better solutions. Another really good example of cold storage are hardware wallets, right? Some of them look like little USBs.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:23:21 And then for sort of more advanced solutions, you know, they might look more like a hard drive, right? Like a bit of a beefier sort of meteor device. And the idea is that these devices, they don\u0027t store your crypto. Remember, your crypto is stored on the blockchain. 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But as I mentioned earlier, that\u0027s a little bit of a cumbersome way of transacting. Anytime you want to make a transaction and keep in mind more sophisticated crypto investors maybe engaging in like hundreds or possibly thousands of transactions a day, right? So it may not be the most practical method for transacting in cryptocurrency. However, if you are a long term investor. So if you\u0027ve just bought like a significant quantity of Bitcoin for example, and you just want to hold it right and you don\u0027t see yourself transacting for some time, cold storage would be a really appropriate way of storing it. Right. Again, just going back to your particular conundrum, which is not a unique one. We\u0027ve seen this sort of unfortunately play out in other jurisdictions as well and in other scenarios. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":31258,"s":"\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:25:00 So in summary, hot storage is more convenient but less secure because if it\u0027s connected to the internet, in theory, that makes you sort of susceptible to hacking. 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You know, if I sign up with one of these institutions, maybe my executors are going to have a copy to a key. Maybe the institution itself is going to have a copy to the key. Maybe I give one to my financial advisor, although I have a note on advisors and key storage as well.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:26:46 But maybe you know somebody who\u0027s a qualified custodian, maybe somebody else has one. And to access the keys you need like 2 or 3 of the five or whatever. The numbers are right to access it. A majority of the parties ideally need to sort of agree and come together to access the crypto. So it\u0027s more secure because it doesn\u0027t necessarily have the same security flaws as hot storage, because it relies on different parties, you know, acting together. And presumably these are your trusted advisors and people where they\u0027re going to be consequences, you know, if they\u0027re trying to steal your crypto. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":35567,"s":"\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:28:19 Yeah, so it\u0027s a good question. the first thing that just comes to mind when I think about this is this whole developing area of digital assets in estate planning. I think even the advice that we\u0027ve given has sort of changed over the years. Right. For example, like let\u0027s just take general password sharing.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:28:34 And that\u0027s not just for cryptocurrency. That could be for other digital assets as well. Right. You know, maybe when I started out I would have said don\u0027t share your password under any circumstances. But sometimes, like, listen, it could be the most practical solution to share a password. I\u0027m not suggesting it\u0027s a one size fits all solution.\n\nNicole Garton 00:28:49 But it often violates terms of service. Right.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:28:51 So. Well, that\u0027s exactly the point that I was going to make, right? Yeah. Because I\u0027ve been asked that question before and I\u0027ve had clients ask me, well, why don\u0027t we just write it down somewhere? And, you know, I trust my spouse or I trust my kids or whatever, and you absolutely can do that, right? From a legal perspective to the point that you just mentioned, in the vast majority of cases, it does violate the Terms of Service agreement. From the practical perspective, what are the odds or what are the chances that a third party is going to know that the person is, you know, without being presented a death certificate? What are the odds that the custodian is going to know that the person has passed away? You know, I guess sometimes when you log into an account on a different platform from a different computer in a different jurisdiction, some custodians, they give you a notification, they ask you, was this really you? Did you log in, you know.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:29:32 Can you do the multi-factor authentication? Which is another important thing you need to keep in mind when it comes to transitioning online accounts. But I just want to start with the password anecdote, because this area is evolving and because passwords are so important. But then to go back to what I just said, the password may not be the only thing that you need to log into account, because many platforms now have two factor authentication or MFA multi-factor authentication. Right? I have an authenticator app on my phone now for many of my apps. So you can give someone a password, but if they don\u0027t have access to the phone with the authenticator app, that could be a big issue as well. Right. So I feel like I\u0027m answering all of your questions in a roundabout way, but I promise it\u0027s all relevant. But I think that the first tip, the first thing you need to do is understand what you own and understand how you access it. Is it just a password? You know? Does it have two MFA or MFA? Does it require biometrics, for example? Right?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:30:22 Some people lock their accounts, but, you know, behind their fingerprint, right. We don\u0027t. I don\u0027t want to get into that morbid discussion. If you\u0027ve passed away and now somebody needs your fingerprint, but you have to understand what the qualities of the assets are. There are still some general best practices. So to jump back to a point that I made earlier, I can tell you that me as a professional, I\u0027m not qualified to store people\u0027s passwords. Like I don\u0027t want people to give me their passwords, for example. I don\u0027t want that. That is a liability. And of course, you know, every time you share your password, every time you write it down, there are potential issues with that beyond the terms of service agreement, because you could write down a password today, for example. But if you change it or if you\u0027re forced to change it or whatever, and you don\u0027t write it down later on. Well, now you\u0027ve relied on the password sharing solution and that solution is not going to work.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:31:04 Similarly, another reason why I don\u0027t want to take passwords is because, you know, I work in an office and of course we all have security procedures and confidentiality and privacy procedures. But, you know, when you\u0027re in an organization at a given time, right? I don\u0027t know who\u0027s in my organization. Right. I haven\u0027t met all of my colleagues. So just from a liability and a risk perspective, I just would not recommend taking passwords unless you know you are qualified to do that. Those are some just risks I want to highlight. The other thing I would say to you is if you are going to employ any sort of password sharing strategy, you don\u0027t want to put it in the will. Because as you know, once wills go through the probate process, they become public documents. So God forbid you write a private key to crypto in the will. And you haven\u0027t you haven\u0027t moved it out of the wallet that it\u0027s in yet. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":40418,"s":"\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:31:48 So you don\u0027t want that either. But there are solutions out there. First of all, one of the best things that you can use and one of the best things people can take advantage of. I\u0027ve talked about the crypto solutions that are out there in terms of the custodial solutions. There is, for example, if you have an iPhone, there\u0027s Apple\u0027s legacy contact feature, and that\u0027s something people who are listening to this podcast right now, they can literally do it while they\u0027re listening to this podcast. Go to your settings for your iCloud account. You can designate a legacy contact so that if you pass away, this legacy contact can go to Apple, they can provide the requisite information and Apple will provide access to. I think most of the account details and most of the account information to the legacy contact. So that\u0027s a very easy thing that you can do. And particularly when it comes to custodial assets, digital assets. That\u0027s like the best thing that you can do because they\u0027re going to be very happy if you use their internal tool.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:32:36 Right. Because they\u0027re familiar with it. They know it. They don\u0027t have to deal with a court order from a different jurisdiction. And that\u0027s where custodians can get a little tricky very recently. And the name of the case is escaping me right now. It\u0027s a recent Alberta case. So you might be interested in this. Nicole. It is the Wada estate. W-A-D-A, the Wada estate case. It\u0027s very recent. It\u0027s an Albertan decision. And essentially in that case, the executors had obtained the probate grant and they presented it to Apple. And Apple said, well, we need particular information. We need this grant to specifically say that you have lawful consent to access the Apple account. So in this case, it was an Apple account. The deceased did not use the legacy contact feature I just described, and Apple essentially said, this court order is not good enough. We need it to say these specific things. Right. And the Albertan court did not like that at all.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:33:24 They were very sort of dismissive of Apple\u0027s concerns and essentially said, listen, this is a court order. This is a grant of probate. This should be sufficient for giving the executors the authority to access the Apple account. You know, it is a waste of the court\u0027s time and resources to issue these sort of duplicative orders, as Apple has sort of requested. And in the future, if technology companies ask for this, there are going to be costs awards against them. So it was a fairly scornful decision, I would say, in favor of the executors. But my problem with that particular decision is that it didn\u0027t really talk about the various issues that come into play when it comes to particularly cross-border digital assets. Apple is based in California, as you know, right. There\u0027s U.S. legislation there that particularly on the privacy side, that Apple wants to make sure it is protected against any claims under this legislation. There are other issues in terms of whether digital assets are property. You know, traditionally speaking, because there\u0027s this whole other world about our digital assets, property, or are they really personal information and are they really under the purview of privacy legislation? I say all this to say that there\u0027s still a lot of legal ambiguity.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:34:28 And I\u0027ve written a number of articles, you know, many of them are on the All About Estates blog, and I\u0027m happy to share others if folks are interested. I did one for the National Conference a couple of years ago, which that\u0027s where I met you actually. So that article that I did is like a pretty comprehensive overview of the legal gaps there. But I bring all this up to make the point that because there\u0027s still a lot of legal ambiguity, if you\u0027re dealing with a custodian and they\u0027ve made a tool available, it is best to use that tool.\n\nNicole Garton 00:34:54 Let\u0027s name them for people. So there\u0027s the legacy one for Apple. 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So Facebook, Instagram have a memorialization process and LinkedIn has a memorialization.\n\nNicole Garton 00:35:04 And doesn\u0027t Google?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:35:05 Google has an active account manager, right?\n\nNicole Garton 00:35:08 Okay. Any other big ones?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:35:09 Honestly, the most recent big one was Apple was a little later to the game than Meta and Google. I\u0027m trying to think of any big ones, any other huge ones…I don\u0027t think YouTube has one.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:35:19 I mean, YouTube is Google, so I think it is sort of related to your inactive account manager, but I can\u0027t think of any other huge, huge ones off the top of my head because this is the next point that I wanted to make. First of all, not all of these tools are created equally right? And second of all, not all institutions have these tools on the first point. Not all tools are created equally. Let\u0027s take Facebook as an example. 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Maybe let\u0027s bring it back to what people can do today. So somebody listens to this and they\u0027re like, “okay I think the stat is the average North American has like 100 digital accounts.”\n\nNicole Garton 00:41:20 Like, what can someone do today to start getting organized in the event that they were suddenly incapable or not living, that they\u0027re executors and powers of attorney could deal with this? What can they do?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:41:30 So yeah, great question. And yes, we\u0027ll try to be a little less technical for this, but I think the easiest thing you can do, like the super easiest thing is again, use these tools. Right? Use the Apple legacy contact. Use the inactive account manager because they\u0027re literally just settings. They\u0027ll guide you through the process. Right. So it doesn\u0027t really require too much sort of external work from you. 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Right. How are my executors going to access this account? So I think looking at that, doing that exercise of creating the inventory will sort of help you with that. So that\u0027s probably the next big step, I would say creating the inventory and then looking at each asset one by one. And then of course, when it comes to the more complex assets, like if you are out there and you are a little bit more of a sophisticated crypto investor, I think that\u0027s where you want to sit down and maybe contact a professional who might be able to help you ensure that your solution for transitioning your crypto is secure. I\u0027ve had some clients over the years. Some of them have been very fortunate where they actually had the Pin to the phone and, you know, the deceased had actually stored their private keys on their phone, right? Or they actually did have the Pin to the wallet, which was super helpful. But I think just sitting down with a professional and having an advisor help guide you in terms of, you know, who the right people to contact are for your crypto storage, that you know that can be useful depending on the magnitude of the asset, right.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:45:22 So those are probably the top three steps I would say.\n\nNicole Garton 00:45:25 And there are resources like STEP has a digital asset checklist. We can put that in our show notes. It\u0027s almost too comprehensive though it might be overwhelming for some people. Do you have some other ideas of templates or things that might help people?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:45:40 I mean, it\u0027s funny, you could potentially use AI to produce a simplified template for you, right? I\u0027m on the STEP digital assets global special interest group steering committee. Right. So I definitely do want to plug the STEP resources. I think they\u0027re really great. But to your point, I think those resources are aimed more at advisors and professionals. So if you are an advisor or professional listening to this right now, I don\u0027t think it would be inappropriate for you. I think for the average person, it could definitely be overwhelming. So I can tell you, for example, for myself now with my clients, whether this was in private practice or whether this is in my current role now at RBC, you know, I always send the questionnaire to the client, like the general estate planning questionnaire.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:46:16 But I tell them, listen, I really don\u0027t want you to worry about filling this out on your own. If you find it intimidating, we\u0027re going to sit down together. We\u0027re going to walk through it, we\u0027re going to go through it. And I try to make the process easier for the clients. Some people love to fill it out, and some people are very organized and will do it on their own. Others, you know, are not. And they sort of need their handheld a little bit. So it depends on the individual as well. But in terms of universal templates I\u0027ve got to promote STEP’s template. But again you could take a STEP template. You could put it into like a Claude or a ChatGPT and ask them to simplify it a little bit. And, you know, in all likelihood it\u0027ll be a fairly sufficient simplified template. But like anything AI generates, you always have to, you know, double check and be sure that everything sort of is accurate. Right.\n\nNicole Garton 00:46:55 So, Demetre, this has been amazing.\n\nNicole Garton 00:46:57 Are there any final steps or tips you want to leave people with?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:47:01 Yeah. I mean, listen, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right? That\u0027s the old saying among the various other estate planning and administration cliches that we\u0027re familiar with. But I do think it\u0027s helpful to be proactive. Estate planning is something that individuals don\u0027t want to think about. Sometimes it\u0027s something that they want to sort of put off to the last minute. But for listeners out there, you know, you really need to think about particularly like my Gmail. Like, let\u0027s take Gmail as an example. I use Gmail all the time, every day, right? It has all my ongoing payments and subscriptions. It has information related to, like my beneficiaries, for example, like friends and people I\u0027ve emailed with. Right. It has, you know, other information about my financial assets and stuff like that. So if my executors had to start from square one, my Gmail account would be such a great way for them to sort of figure out what\u0027s going 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="rrZ0uvyF7onTdJwZXpPQxA">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":61696,"s":"\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:47:47 So I encourage those out there who are listening to really take a moment, put yourself in your executor\u0027s shoes and think about what information would they need to make your estate administration as sort of simple as possible? And for those of you who are out there who you know might find that a little daunting, that\u0027s where I would encourage them to seek out a professional, because that\u0027s the professional\u0027s job at the end of the day. In contrast, for the professionals out there, I would say it is very clear that more and more clients are owning digital assets. You know, you\u0027re seeing particularly more and more interest in crypto and getting into the crypto market. So I certainly encourage professionals who are out there who are listening, who are not super familiar with these topics, to go and seek out resources. Again, Step has a lot of them. I\u0027m always happy to field questions and to sit down and talk to people about this if there\u0027s interest out there, but really just sort of ensuring that you\u0027re, you know, getting a general sense of what the right questions to ask are.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:48:35 And then, of course, when you meet with your clients actually asking those questions, and that will sort of help inform and guide what the next steps are.\n\nNicole Garton 00:48:42 So, Demetre, you are an incredible resource. If people wanted to find you, what\u0027s the best way to find you?\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:48:47 Honestly, I think the best way is LinkedIn. I do check it fairly regularly, so if you just Google my name, I assume my name is going to be on the podcast page for this, right? If you just search me on LinkedIn, I don\u0027t think the only other Demetre Vasilounis I know that\u0027s out there is my cousin in Greece and he does not have LinkedIn, I can assure you of that. So I\u0027m probably the first one that will pop up. Please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I\u0027d be happy to chat.\n\nNicole Garton 00:49:08 That\u0027s wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much. It\u0027s been really incredible. Thank you for all your wisdom and tips.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:49:12 Thank you so much for having me, Nicole.\n\nDemetre Vasilounis 00:49:14 I really enjoyed it. Thank you.\n\nNicole Garton 00:49:20 Demetre. Thank you. This has been such an important conversation. What really stands out to me is that our estate planning has not kept pace with the way we actually live. So much of our financial life, our personal history, and even our identity now exists in digital form. If those assets are not identified, planned for, and made accessible in the right way, families can lose both value and memories. Even when there\u0027s a perfectly valid well in place for listeners. Here are the key takeaways. \n\nFirst, prepare a digital asset inventory. Make a list of your important online accounts, digital devices, cloud storage, loyalty programs, and any cryptocurrency holdings. Your executor needs to know what exists and where to start. \n\nSecond, use the planning tools already offered by major platforms. Set up your Apple Legacy, contact Facebook Legacy, Contact and Google and Active Account Manager. These take minutes and can save your family enormous frustration. \n\nThird, make sure your will and incapacity documents properly address digital assets.\n\nNicole Garton 00:50:19 That includes giving your executor or attorney the authority they need to deal with them. Fourth, if you hold cryptocurrency, make sure there is a secure and workable plan for your private keys and seed phrases. Without that, the asset may be unrecoverable. Fifth, do not put passwords in your will. Use a safer system and make sure the right people know how to locate what they need when the time comes. Demetre, thank you again for sharing your expertise with us. And thank you to our listeners for joining us on your estate Matters. If you found this episode helpful. Please share it with someone who may benefit from us and join us next time for another practical conversation about estate planning. Estate administration and legacy in Canada. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of 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