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The Kuleshov Effect · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: ambiguous facial expression host Abraham, and.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm your Spielbergian host Shane.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the things that people do and animals do, and sometimes
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: we talk about the creative endeavors where people feel like
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: they've maybe discovered a thing that helps them do their
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: creative endeavor better, which is what we're talking about today.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I am really excited about this topic because I watch
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: movies both from like an entertainment standpoint and also from
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: like a technique standpoint, and so I'm really excited to
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  Speaker 2: get into some of this.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one for all of you cinophiles out there,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: because we are talking about movies and trying to answer
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: the question what do Russia, Disney, Perception, and the Seven
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Deadly Sins have in common?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: We've got so much to unpack here.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: What don't they have in common? Is maybe the thing
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: to say exactly exactly. If you are joining us for
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: the first time, Welcome. We are so happy to have
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: you here. If you enjoy this episode today and you
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  Speaker 1: would like to support us, you can do that in
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  Speaker 1: a friend, rate and review, pick up some merch from
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  Speaker 1: our merch store, or join us on Patreon and I
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: will talk more about that at the end of this discussion,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: but in the meantime, thank you for joining us here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: It is Thanksgiving tomorrow, so I would like to wish
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  Speaker 1: y'all a happy Thanksgiving tomorrow.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: And it's also Blackout Wednesday.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: In case you didn't know, because you know, one holiday
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: is kind of stealing the limelight right now. But relatedly,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: maybe it's National Bavarian cream pie Day.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Ah chef's kiss. It's also National craft jerky Day. That's
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  Speaker 2: kind of fun.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Sure, It's National Electric Guitar Day. That's fantastic, love that.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Way more fun than jerk. It's also National Jukebox Day,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: so but don't bully the jukebox. Don't be that guy.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Don't be that guy. It is National pins and Needles Day,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: which makes a lot of sense because we just had
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: an election in tomorrow's Thanksgiving, so.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, enjoy uh huh. It's also Pie in the Face Day,
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  Speaker 2: which also feels like the election day it does right
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  Speaker 2: in the face, just done.
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  Speaker 1: And Thanksgiving, Yeah pie in the face. Seems more pleasant
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  Speaker 1: than the election, unless it was like a poop pie,
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  Speaker 1: then that was the election.
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  Speaker 2: No. Thanks.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Relatedly, it is spite giving instead of Thanksgiving.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. It is also taie one on Day.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Sure if you're in the market for it. Today for
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: whatever reason, it is Adopt a Turtle Day. So if
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: you find a turtle that needs a home, don't like
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: go pull one out of the lake or something. But
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: if if there's like a rescue turtle at a shelter,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: then maybe adopt a turtle.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know there are at least four that are
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: living in the sewer that somebody could help out. They
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: like pizza. Today is also what do you love about
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: America Day? Right now? Not a whole lot?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, moving on, It is Better Conversation Week, which
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: again given Thanksgiving good luck.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's a church state separation week. Love that.
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  Speaker 1: Hopefully that continues. Yeah, I would like that to be
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  Speaker 1: forever and all of time. Actually, yes, yes, it is
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: g e r D Awareness Week. What even is g
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: e r D.
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  Speaker 2: It is gastro esophageal reflux disorder. Oh, it is something
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: like that. It's basically like medically severe heartburn.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, jeez. Okay, be aware. That sounds very unpleasant. Now,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: I'm aware, and we helped you be aware.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I am unfortunately aware. It is something I stress, I
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  Speaker 2: deal with all the time. It is not fun.
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  Speaker 1: Oh oh jeez. Yeah, okay, Well, poor one out for Shane.
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  Speaker 2: This one is brought to you by a mepersol. It's
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: National Adoption Week. Not only are you adopting turtles, but
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: you can adopt people too.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Sure we are accepting endorsements from whatever medication you.
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  Speaker 2: Just said, it's just Harper medicine.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: It is National Deal Week, which makes a lot of
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  Speaker 1: sense because you know, yeah, you know, sure.
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  Speaker 2: It's a National Family Week.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's National Farm City Week. A lot of
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  Speaker 1: food and family. I feel like I'm going on here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what's going on this week? And it's also speaking
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: to Abraham's heart here. National Game and Puzzle Week.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, we're in a board game shirt right now?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, brilliant?
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  Speaker 1: All right. Well, as much as we like discussing the
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  Speaker 1: various holidays that any random episode happens to fall on,
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  Speaker 1: that's not our primary motive for being here, and it's
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  Speaker 1: probably not your motive for showing up. But it was fun,
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  Speaker 1: so we did it. But let's talk about our topic today, which,
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  Speaker 1: as we said, has to do with movies and specifically
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  Speaker 1: this effect in filmmaking called the Kulishav effect, which is
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  Speaker 1: a lot of people have talked about this as being
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  Speaker 1: an essential concept of editing, if not all filmmaking.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what is this famous effect? Well, Koulishev's set
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  Speaker 2: up a series of film experiments that alternated between a
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  Speaker 2: man and three different objects to explore the emotional effects
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  Speaker 2: of contrast. He would focus on a man's face and
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  Speaker 2: then cut to a woman in a coffin to represent sadness,
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  Speaker 2: cut from a man's face to a bowl of soup
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  Speaker 2: to show hunger, and then cut from a man's face
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  Speaker 2: to a woman lying on a chase lounge a lounge
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  Speaker 2: chair to capture lust. So he had a woman in
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  Speaker 2: a coffin for sadness, a bowl of soup for hunger,
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  Speaker 2: and a woman on a chase lounge chair for lust.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And essentially what he was trying to do here
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  Speaker 1: was experiment with how the editing affects your perception of
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  Speaker 1: the face that has shown the person that it cuts to, like,
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  Speaker 1: away from, and back too. And his experiment essentially revealed
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  Speaker 1: and suggested that the meaning of the shot is not
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  Speaker 1: inherent to the shot itself, but is significantly influenced by
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  Speaker 1: the shots around it, the ones that precede it and
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  Speaker 1: follow it. Essentially, how you if it shows a guy
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  Speaker 1: a person's face with some ambiguous or even neutral expression
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  Speaker 1: on it, and then it shows some image like the coffin,
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  Speaker 1: for example, and then shows his face again, your interpretation
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  Speaker 1: of his expression is colored by the image that is
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  Speaker 1: cut between them. And so this insight has challenged filmmakers
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  Speaker 1: to think about how editing can shape the emotional response
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  Speaker 1: and the narrative structure of their films that they're trying
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  Speaker 1: to communicate to their audience.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So the Koulishov effect was created between nineteen ten
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  Speaker 2: and nineteen twenty when we were doing some research on this,
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  Speaker 2: Actually a new researcher, Katie, was doing some research on this.
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  Speaker 2: Found some contradicting starting dates for when this showed up,
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  Speaker 2: but it was created by Russian filmmaker Lev Koulishev.
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  Speaker 1: Hence the Koulishev effect. Yeah, and so this theory shaped
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  Speaker 1: the understand film and editing. It demonstrated that a film
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  Speaker 1: is simply the juxtaposition of two shots combined to evoke
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  Speaker 1: some emotional response, and these shots can manipulate both space
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  Speaker 1: and time, influencing the audience's reaction to each one.
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  Speaker 2: So with this insight, the entire film industry evolved as
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  Speaker 2: an artistic medium. Modern filmmakers realized they could provoke any
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  Speaker 2: desired response from viewers through the careful arrangement of shots,
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  Speaker 2: and this editing approach led to a variety of innovative
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  Speaker 2: camera angles that complemented the editing and enhanced storytelling in
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  Speaker 2: those art pieces.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the coolest sho of effect is something that
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  Speaker 1: you can see in modern films. As this discovery was
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  Speaker 1: seen as so useful to so many filmmakers, It's often
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  Speaker 1: used to create emotional depth and again to guide the
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  Speaker 1: audience's interpretation of what they're seeing on the screen.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, there are a few different ways to do this.
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  Speaker 2: So let's talk about montage sequence is for a second. So,
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  Speaker 2: in action films, montages they actually juxtapose shots of different
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  Speaker 2: characters or events to build tension or excitement, manipulating viewers
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  Speaker 2: emotions and expectations.
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  Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and give some examples of this. Actually,
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  Speaker 1: because a very common montage trop you'll see in some
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  Speaker 1: action movies, is the like gearing up.
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  Speaker 2: Scene, Yeah, the gearing up or training.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so like in the recent Deadpool where he's
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  Speaker 1: getting a new suit, there's like him pulling the suit
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  Speaker 1: up and zipping a thing and grabbing a weapon and
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  Speaker 1: loading a weapon and putting a weapon in a holster
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  Speaker 1: and getting his cross grabbed by the person who's doing
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  Speaker 1: the tailoring. But there's this whole montage sequence is intended
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  Speaker 1: to have you like you're following a sort of set
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  Speaker 1: of events, and so the montage is actually a very
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  Speaker 1: heavily utilized feature of filmmaking that specifically leans on this
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  Speaker 1: coolest shop effect thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Another example of that is the montage sequence and
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  Speaker 2: song in Team America World.
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  Speaker 1: Please, that's right. I forgot about that one.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, with the chorus one, We're gonna need a montage montage.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. I had forgotten about that. That's a great call.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that was so fun.
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  Speaker 1: Obviously, the coolest shav effect is also used for comedic timing,
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  Speaker 1: or I say obviously it seems obvious to me, but
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  Speaker 1: they specifically will cut at a time, so the comedians
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  Speaker 1: will use coolest shov effect to cut between characters expression
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  Speaker 1: and a humorous situation to enhance the comedic impact through contrast,
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  Speaker 1: So like it might show someone's face and all you
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  Speaker 1: see is the reaction, and then it shows you the
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  Speaker 1: thing they're reacting to, and that becomes the punchline, and
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  Speaker 1: the editing of that can really help carry the comedy
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  Speaker 1: and the comedic timing of it. Or they might show
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  Speaker 1: the thing that they're reacting to and then show their
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  Speaker 1: face and that and then their facial expression becomes the
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  Speaker 1: sort of punchline for whatever the comedic element is.
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  Speaker 2: I think specifically in that one, I think of Airplane
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  Speaker 2: when the main actor says that he's got a drinking
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  Speaker 2: problem and it throws a glass of water in his face,
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  Speaker 2: and then it cuts to somebody who's like watching him
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  Speaker 2: straight face, like what just happened? Like like I could
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  Speaker 2: see that happening in that movie, which is just so fun.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, Or I mean there is some scenes I know
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  Speaker 1: in Parks and Recreation, the TV show that's now off
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  Speaker 1: the air, but they did some really funny scenes where
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  Speaker 1: they would show something and then cut to Ron Swanson's
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  Speaker 1: character played by Nick Offerman, where he'd just get like
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  Speaker 1: this really sly smile on his face, and it's so
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  Speaker 1: funny because like you're basically expecting him to be really
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  Speaker 1: thrilled about this, and so the subtlety of his reaction
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  Speaker 1: actually sells the comedy better than a big overt reaction.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now. They do this in thrillers and
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  Speaker 2: horror movies as well. Directors may show a character's fearful
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  Speaker 2: reaction intercut with ominous visuals, heightening suspense. In Dread, I
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  Speaker 2: think that the shower scene in Psycho is probably one
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  Speaker 2: of the best examples of this.
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  Speaker 1: And also in Jaws, like they did very little, Like
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  Speaker 1: you really don't see the shark and Jaws, but you
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  Speaker 1: see the character's reactions to what they're supposed to be seeing,
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  Speaker 1: and that carries a lot of weight emotionally in terms
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  Speaker 1: of your experience of like perceiving that as being fearful.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the scene where they zoom in, it's like the
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  Speaker 2: scene where they zoom in on the guy, the main character,
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  Speaker 2: and the background zooms out at the same time. Like
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  Speaker 2: it's a really cool effect, Like it makes it solways,
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  Speaker 2: like oh, when they see the first attack on the beach. Yah,
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  Speaker 2: it's like one of the most iconic, Like it's so good.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I actually think yeah, I think horror
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  Speaker 1: movies use this a lot because they're specifically framing what
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  Speaker 1: they want you to see and don't want you to see, yes,
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  Speaker 1: And so it builds tension. When you see a character
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  Speaker 1: and they're looking down at something and all you're seeing
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  Speaker 1: is their face and you don't see the thing that
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  Speaker 1: they're looking at, but they're starting to react in a
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  Speaker 1: fearful manner. That builds some tension that you may not
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  Speaker 1: even need the payoff of seeing the thing that they
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  Speaker 1: were looking at at just their reaction alone, or you
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  Speaker 1: cut to the thing that they're looking at at some point,
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  Speaker 1: but like how they time, that is all intended to
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  Speaker 1: deliver a specific emotional sort of payoff, if you.
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  Speaker 2: Will, right exactly all right.
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  Speaker 1: And then the last one that we have here is
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  Speaker 1: you can actually use this whole effect for character development.
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  Speaker 1: Films will often use this technique to reveal a character's
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  Speaker 1: inner thoughts or transformations by cutting between a shot of
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  Speaker 1: their expression and then significant objects or scenes, and that
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  Speaker 1: allows the audience to infer from what they're seeing what
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: their emotional state and experience might be in a way
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  Speaker 1: that has you start to predict what they might be
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  Speaker 1: thinking or what they might do next, and see how
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  Speaker 1: the arc of their character is shaping with the story.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the best examples of this
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  Speaker 2: is in Usual Suspects when the detective starts putting all
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  Speaker 2: the pieces together in the office and it cuts between
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  Speaker 2: his face and his realization as he starts noticing key
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: features in the office that are related to the story
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  Speaker 2: that is being told. Oh man, that is a perfect scene.
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  Speaker 1: That has such a good example. And we actually have
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  Speaker 1: some more very specific modern examples. But first, as you
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: might see in the TV shows or movies, ads, or
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: maybe I should have said commercial breaks or sponsored by
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: or something I don't know. Yeah, anyway, let's turn to
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  Speaker 1: some more relevant modern examples.
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  Speaker 2: As we mentioned before, new to the team here, Katie
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  Speaker 2: helped write these notes. She wrote a really great example
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  Speaker 2: of this for modern day examples. So she says, my
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  Speaker 2: favorite example of this effect is from the movie Seven
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  Speaker 2: with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman. If you don't know
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: this movie, then we're gonna shame you just a little bit,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: but sum it up. It's directed by David Fincher, follows
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  Speaker 2: the tech it gives William Somerset, who's Morgan Freeman and
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  Speaker 2: David Mills who's Brad Pitt, as they investigate a series
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  Speaker 2: of gruesome murders inspired by the Seven Deadly Sins one
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  Speaker 2: of our tie ins earlier. Yes, as a delve deeper,
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  Speaker 2: they uncover a meticulously planned pattern, with each victim representing
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  Speaker 2: a sin. The film builds tension as the detectives race
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  Speaker 2: against time to stop the killer, ultimately leading to a
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: shocking and tragic conclusion that explores themes of mortality, despair,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: and the darker aspects of human nature. The film is
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: notable for its dark atmosphere, compelling performances, and thought provoking
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: commentary on justice and evil.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love those movies that think. Such a greatly
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: good example too. But we're going to get into actually
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: a various specific scene from this movie, which is just
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: a wee bit of a spoiler, So probably skip ahead
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: about a minute if you haven't seen this as it
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: came out like the nineties, but like, yeah, maybe the
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: early two thousands. By the way, we've now connected Russia
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: and Seven Deadly Sins as you mentioned, all right, so
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: toward the end of the movie, So again spoiler alert.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it again, you can skip ahead
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  Speaker 1: about a minute. There is a famous scene where brad
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  Speaker 1: Pitt's character infamously shouts, what's in the box, what's in
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the box? What's in the box? He sort of says
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  Speaker 1: it over and over, huh. And this scene revolves around
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: alternating between the camera angled at the box kind of
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  Speaker 1: like you don't see what's in the box exactly, and
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  Speaker 1: the reactions of each character cutting back and forth to
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  Speaker 1: build emotion. So you see what some person does see
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: when they look in the box, You see the person
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: who's responsible for this, and you see brad Pitt's character
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  Speaker 1: who's the most affected by this, and it sort of
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: cuts around them, and you're piecing it all together pretty
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: quickly as it's happening. But what's intriguing is that Fincher,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the director, he showcases three distinct emotions, all connected to
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the singular box, brad Pitt's horror, Morgan Freeman's fear, the
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  Speaker 1: killer's elation. So there's the sort of three different things
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: that are going on, and these contrasting emotions are really
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  Speaker 1: effective when you're sort of cutting between the box as
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the sort of central element, and the audience must grasp
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  Speaker 1: all three perspectives for the scene to really unfold and
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: the narrative to come together and make complete sense. And
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  Speaker 1: Fincher is just brilliantly and expertly manipulates our reaction, immersing
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  Speaker 1: us in shock and awe as we come to realize
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: how the villain is triumphed.
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  Speaker 2: I think an interesting part and aspect of this too
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: we're gonna be film credits for a second, is that
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  Speaker 2: you feel the fear and the horror that are related
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  Speaker 2: to Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman's character, but you don't
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  Speaker 2: feel elation, no, for the other character, Like you feel anger,
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  Speaker 2: Like you feel an entirely different emotion that's being manipulated
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  Speaker 2: by his reaction in those cuts to the juxtaposition of
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: the other emotions and.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Kind of this dropping feeling of like dread sadness as well. Yeah, yeah,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and dread.
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  Speaker 2: It's so effective, it is.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that movie is unbelievably well done, and I
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: actually think we sort of you all for not seeing
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: it if you hadn't. But it is maybe one of
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: the harder one to watch for people who struggle with
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: gory and violent depictions of human behavior. Yeah, it's not
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: over the top gore, but it is a very dark movie.
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  Speaker 2: It's enough, it's enough. That's fine.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Now, they're definitely not appropriate for children.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Who no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. Now
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: a movie that is appropriate for children, and another great
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: example for the less spooky, suspenseful crowd is the animated
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: movie from Pixar Inside Out. Yeah, if you have not
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: had the chance to witness this amazing movie, it's wonderful.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: We will give you an overview. Inside Out as an
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: animated film that explores the emotional journey of an eleven
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: year old girl named Riley as she navigates a major
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: life change after moving to a new city.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, in this the story primarily takes place in
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: her mind, and you have five personified emotions that are
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: sort of behind the control board of the main character's mind,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and each one of them's name is the emotion that
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: they depict. So you have joy, sadness, anger, fear, and disgust,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: all as characters working together to help Riley cope with
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: the daily challenges of life. And this scenario, she finds
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: herself joy is the dominant emotion and she strives to
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: really keep Riley happy and prevent sadness from affecting her
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: core memories and sort of driving the bus if you will. However,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: in the movie, when joy and sadness accidentally gets swept
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: off into the far reaches of Riley's mind, they have
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: to work together to return to the headquarters. So that's
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: just sort of an overall summary of the plot structure.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, as they journey through the various aspects of
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: her psyche, they discover the importance of all emotions, particularly
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: how sadness plays a crucial role in helping Riley process
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: her experiences. The film beautifully illustrates the complexity of emotions
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: and the importance of embracing them all, ultimately conveying a
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: powerful message about growing up, resilience, and the significance of
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: sadness in life.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: So it's not a question that picks Our understands how
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: to captivate an audience and illicit emotions. They're pretty good
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: at this. But the movie really highlights how picks Are
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: effectively employs the coolest shov effect to enhance emotional storytelling
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: and character development. So a few key examples from the film.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: So there's these emotional reactions. The film will frequently cut
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: between Riley, who's supposed to be the main sort of
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: central character, and then the emotions in Riley's mind joys, sadness, anger, fear,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: and disgust reacting to those different situations. And these quick
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: transitions allow viewers to infer Riley's feelings based on the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: emotions the characters emotions expressions, and again it deepens the
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: understanding of her internal struggles. And so even though they're
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: sort of explicitly telling you what she's feeling, they also
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: do a lot of you're seeing their reaction and then
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you're seeing her face that corresponds to the reaction, and
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: they do it in a really clever way that's still subtle,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: and I think it's still really effective in helping you
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: just relate to it in a meaningful way.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Right. Another thing they do in this too, is they
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: juxtapose memories on top of some of the experiences too
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: and some of the emotions. So the film will often
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: contrast joyful memories with sad ones. And for instance, when
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: joy reflects on a happy moment while sadness interacts with
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: the same memory, the emotional weight shifts, allowing the audience
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: to experience Riley's complex feelings about her past. And they
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: do that in a really cool way they might do
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: something where they and they do this in funny ways too.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: It's not just sad memories and like those emotional responses.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they'll drop in a memory that is like completely
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: unrelated to Riley's experience, but it's very funny, like the
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: jingle from a gum commercial will like just drop in
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: in like a kind of an emotionally weighty situation and
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: it like breaks it up. But like they will cut
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: to that really quickly, and it does change your alter
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: your emotions and provide a little bit of levity where
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you might not be having that if there would have
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: if there was a continuous long shot or like some
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: exposition about that particular experience.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you still are doing the interpreting, even it's
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: pretty clear what's right in front of you. They're not
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: just saying it to you all the time, right. And
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: there's also these character dynamics, which is the interaction between
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: the emotions themselves, which is kind of an interesting idea
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: by itself, but especially when they're responding to Riley's experiences
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: and it sort of reveals their different perspectives. For example,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: cutting between Joy's optimistic response and sadnesses more somber reactions
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: illustrate the tension and interplay between those emotions and a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: variety of circumstances. And it's like one person might react
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: to a circumstance by laughing at it, and one person
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: might react by breaking down, and you're sort of they're
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: showing by showing her sort of inner characters, her emotional
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: characters dynamic with each other, is showing the conflict that
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: can happen when you're sort of just in a situation
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: that's like maybe not the easiest one to navigate.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Right, And then they also use visual metaphors, so the
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: film uses a lot of a dual cues, such as
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Riley's core memories and some different structures that go along
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: with that, and they cut to her emotional responses, which
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: are like when they cut to Riley and her experience
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: inside of or like your her emotional response inside of
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a particular experience, it allows the audience to feel the
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: significance of whatever that like minor thing is that's happening
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: inside her brain, like if she like accidentally triggers a
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: core memory, or like the core memory gets touched or
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: changed or anything like that, and the contrast between the
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: core memories and Riley's current emotional state highlights her internal
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: conflict pretty well. And you see that kind of like
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: that really quick and like you said, subtle shift between
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: watching what's happening with the emotions inside her mind watching
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: what's happening in real life, and how that becomes a
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: little bit more salient and not as exaggerated as what's
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: happening in her mind, but still pretty powerful and pretty potent.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I think it's really just they just do a really
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: good job of this.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Really a lot of movies you could turn to that
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: will do some version of this and use it in
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of different ways. So as we've sort of
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: talked about then inside Out, and as we were talking
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: about with seven, they use it for character development, for
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: establishing horror, for exploring sort of these complex emotional concepts,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: and a lot of movies. I mean, I think you'll
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: start to see that this is really prevalent an enormous
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: amount of the time. I actually think that a lot
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: of deadpan comedy is essentially the idea where you get
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: very little reaction from your character. But what's funny about
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: it is that juxtaposed with the next thing that they
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: show you, which seems like a really extreme, extreme reaction.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like every Wes Anderson movie is that
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: exact thing, Like every every single very good point. It's
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: every it's like something happens, like you know, it's Bill
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Murray making some comment to a crew member about something
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: and it's deadpan. But then the juxtaposition of like that
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: crew member standing on top of a submarine in the
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: middle of the ocean and how ridiculous it is, like
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: it's the whole, the whole. All of his movies have
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: that exact thing where it just cuts to some really
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: ridiculous scene after somebody delivers some deadpan in line.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or their reaction to it is very deadpan. So
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: in one of his more recent movies, Asteroid City again
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: minor maybe major spoiler, I'll try and not spoil it
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: too much, there's essentially a scene where something very fantastical
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: and way out of this world sort of happens, yes,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: and there's like a whole crowd of people and they
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: just sit there quietly watching it happen, and then it
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: ends and they kind of sit there and look around
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: at each other. And this would be like a world
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: shaping level event that happens and they just kind of
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: sit in there stoically. Essentially. I think what he's using
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the coolest show of effect to do is convey surprise
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: but without an overt large reaction from the crowd. Right
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: the deadpan comedy, there is sort of do you see
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: a thing that you would expect to maybe elicit an
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: extreme reaction, and you pan to your cure crowd who's
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: just kind of sitting there, often in very funny costumes,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: looking quietly at this event as it takes place.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I think another example too that
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I can think of is like post credit scenes for
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: some Marvel movies, Like it's cutting from like maybe like
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: there's like you know, there's a big block after the credits,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: so it's not necessarily a scene to scene, but there
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: is like the depending on the after credit scene, there
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: is like this additional levity to maybe something that we
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: watched it was really severe. Like the example I think
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: of like is the first Avengers movie, where like at
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: the end of the movie you have this big battle,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: lots of buildings are destroyed, people die, like it's really intense,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: and then they do the credits and then after the
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: credits they're all sitting and eating together in a destroyed cafe,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: like and just how ridiculous it is to go from
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: like they were literally fighting aliens that were falling out
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: of a portal through space to now they're reading shwarma
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: right Like, So there's like a couple things like that
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: which like like elicit like you know, like to me,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: that's it's a funny scene, but it also list it's
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: like a kind of relief where you're like, Okay, everything's good.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: They're okay, everything is going to be all right, right, Like,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: so there's like they say, it does it does almost
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: like a pot cathartic effect on that, on that for
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: the first you know, people who watch those movies.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. So, Yeah, exactly, Like just a ten
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: second shot of a group of people sitting around eating
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: sharma saying nothing would not normally elicit any kind of
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: major reaction from you. But it just as you said,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: after watching like the destruction of a city and the
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: fact that they had like referenced Schwarma earlier, it like
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: it's funny. It's funny, and as you said, it sort
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: of brings the temperature down. Yeah, and that's I think
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: not super easy to do.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: No, not at all. I think it takes real intention
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: to do that in a really meaningful way. Yeah, speaking
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: of bringing the temperature down, here, a couple adds.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Brought the temperature all the way down to freezing.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Ooh.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Juxtaposing good content with bad content. That's actually how we
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: keep you all listening and coming back as we cut
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: in ads, because those are so obnoxious that by the
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: time you get back to the episode, it's a relief
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: because the ads.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Are right exactly.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Just kidding, just kidding. Okay, let's talk about some science
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: here as we're thinking about how the kolist Hev effect
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: relates to psychology, and in particular, right now, how this
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: relates to individuals with autism, because the kolst Jev effect
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: can have unique implications for autistic folks, particularly and how
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: they interpret emotional cues in film and media. So let's
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: break down some of the ways that this might impact
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: autistic people.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Right, So, let's talk first about emotion recognition. So the
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Coolest Show effect relies on the viewer's ability to infer
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: emotions based on visual context, and autistic folks may have
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: difficulty recognizing subtle emotional cues or neurotypical cues or non
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: neurodiversion cues, which could make it challenging to fully grasp
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: the emotional contrast that this effect relies on. So it
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: does rely on a little bit of interpretation of emotional cues,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: and that might be something that is a little bit
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: more difficult.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it might have to be sort of explained a
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: little bit more, because again, sometimes the social cues are
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: tricky for autistic folks, and they will say that they
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: have trouble following sort of the logic of it and
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: what they're supposed to be getting out of it, which
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: is understandable, right. And then there's also literal interpretation. It's
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: not uncommon for autistic people to interpret information very literally,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and this could lead to misunderstandings. When the scenes are
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: edited in a way, they're essentially depending on emotional inference
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: for you to get it, and the autistic people might
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: kind of miss the intended emotional subtext that's supposed to
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: be created by juxtaposing these different shots, and so they're
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: sort of interpreting it more literally when it's supposed to
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: be more metaphorical and abstract and figural.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Right. It's not to say it wouldn't have list the
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: same response. It might just get there a different way too,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: So like they made like the interpretation might lead to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: an emotional response. That is, we've made it there through
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: like logical inferences or like understanding the clear interpretvisions of that.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: So did I say figural? I think I meant to
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: say figurative and I was saying emotional.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: I think we could go a figural. Let's let's go
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: a figuralre I like it. So there's also perspective taking
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: that goes along with this. So the coolest show effect
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: emphasizes understanding multiple perspectives like we talked about with the
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: example in seven and specifically degrass the narrative of like
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: the emotional weight of that particular scene. Now it does
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: explicitly outline what ends up what is in the box,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Like we do find out what is in the box.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Like that's not like a mystery. It's not like a
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: pulp fiction where you never learn what's in the suitcase. Right,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: So there is that, So there is like a literal
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: you do get that information. But if if you are
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: somebody who has autism, then you might find it challenging
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: to do the perspective taking or theory of mind. And
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: that's not true for everybody, but this is something that
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: might come up and it might actually alter understandings of
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: emotions or motivations if if we have more literal interpretations
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: of those subtexts.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that's also difficult for sociopaths, you know
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: what I mean?
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I would imagine it's probably difficult for anybody, not just
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: autistic folks, but anybody who has a hard time seeing
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: outside of the context of self, like anybody who can't
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: do perspective taking. It's not not unique, not particularly unique
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: to autistic folks, but like it's probably difficult for anybody
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: who just doesn't have empathy. And that's not to say
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the autistic folks don't have empathy. I want to be
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: clear about that. It's just difficult for people who don't
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: have the skill of going I can put myself in
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: that person's shoes and understand their perspective.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Right, that makes sense. Yeah, there is kind of a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: flip side to all of this, because we've been talking
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: about how the coolest shav effect actually might be difficult
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: for autistic folks, but they might have some advantages here,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: which is that the coolest show effect is a visual
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: element in editing and that might engage autistic people who
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: often not always by the way, but just they tend
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: to have strong visual processing skills. So following the fact
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: that it is a very visual phenomenon could help them
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: focus on the explicit details of the scenes and maybe
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: even catching things that other people are missing, and that
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: could potentially lead to a clearer understanding of the narrative
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: through visual storytelling as intended, although again they might miss
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: the subtext but be better at following what the shot
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: is intended to include. Because one thing, I don't know
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: if you've thought about this when you're watching a movie,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: but most of the time, when you're watching a movie,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: every single thing in that shot is there on purpose, right, Everything,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: every light, every decoration, every color, everything there is there
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: on purpose. A lot of the time. There are times
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: when it's a little more slap dash and put together,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: but most of the time, particularly in big budget movies,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: everything you see was done on purpose.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Another opportunity here will be related to social learning.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: So when there are films that are relating stimuli together,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: so they are relating cues together, emotional responses to particular
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: environmental events and things like shock and horror related to
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: a box that you can create these kind of unique
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: learning opportunities where somebody might say, I see this scenario,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I see the circumstance, this is the emotional response that
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: is directly related to this particular circumstance, And there are
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: opportunities to kind of see modeled emotions in that space.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And so by observing how emotions are conveyed through editing,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: through relating those frames together, relating those specific shots together,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: folks with autism might be able to understand how those
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: social things interact with one another. And that might become
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: like an explicit rule where you go, oh, okay, when
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: this happens, this is what people this is how people
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: typically respond, and this is how neurotypical people typically respond
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: to these circumstances, which doesn't make it the right response,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: but it does give an opportunity to kind of say, like,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: this is how these stimuli might be related in this
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: social opportunity.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Well said, yeah, absolutely. So. The overall summary here of
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: just thinking about the kolst Jev effect as it relates
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: to people living with autism is that it can present
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: some challenges. As we talked about, there's some very subtle
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: emotional subtexts there might be some subtle emotional cues and
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: social things that are difficult to latch onto, but it
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: also can offer those opportunities for learning and engagement through
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: visual storytelling techniques and the fact that they are often
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: following the explicit details in the scene, or they might
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: be able to follow those details in a way that
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: helps them sort of easily understand how the visuals are
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: related to one another.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So now the coolest show effect that significant implications
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: for psychology and ABA as well. So let's talk about
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: this from a psychology standpoint. The cool shop effect underscores
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: the importance of context in shaping emotional interpretation, which has
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: a significant implication about the world of psychology and how
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: we understand it. It informs our understanding of how people
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: perceive emotions based on their surroundings and personal experiences, highlighting
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: the dynamic interplay between environment and emotional responses.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: So, in therapeutic settings, psychologists can actually leverage the Coolishov
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: effect by attempting to design scenarios or utilize media that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: evoke the targeted emotional reaction, and this approach can deepen
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: clients self awareness during therapies such as cognitive behavioral therapy,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: and it does so by illustrating how context influences their
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: feelings and thought patterns. As we've talked about many, many,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: many times, the context is so critically and massively important
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: in understanding our behaviors, which include our thoughts and feelings,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: is that like one context or a reaction to the
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: very same setting events is going to be different from
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: a different context with that same setting event and sort
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: of where we're at in the moment, And so a
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: psychologist can sort of cleverly leverage that context to help
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: build a sort of therapeutic effect, if you will, through
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: a sort of narrative way like the story right.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Furthermore, insights from the cool shop effect can enhance training
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: and emotional recognition and communication skills, particularly for individuals facing
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: social cognition challenges or you know, let's say very different
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: or neurodivergent, or people with traumatic brain injury who maybe
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: have lost social skills or cognition skills. There's an opportunity
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: for training here that's safe, that will not damage relationships,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: but also give people an opportunity for kind of understanding,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: labeling and identifying behaviors related to congruent emotional responses and circumstances.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah. The effect also provides a foundation for empirical
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: research on emotional processing and it might guide studies to
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: help examine how the variations on overall presentation of stimuli
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: and sort of scenarios can impact psychological evaluations across emotional
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: and cognitive aspects. I think the point here is that
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: is that ultimately an enriched our comprehension of the sort
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: of cognitive elements going on behind the emotional recognition and
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: social understanding. And this is critical in areas for areas
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: in sort of developmental psychology and thinking about how we
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: think through in process our response to cues and context
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: and social things in our environments.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, when it comes to behavior analysis, the cool
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: shop effect has valuable implications for behavior analysis by emphasizing
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: the importance of context and shaping behavior, including emotional responses.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So practitioners can enhance interventions by strategically using various stimuli,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: various cues, and their emotional presentations to influence responses in
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: specific social situations. They can use this for a training
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: opportunity to teach specific social skills to teach prosocial reactions
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: to certain situations, like empathetic responses and stuff like that.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: We can do a lot of really cool things inside
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so in practice, behavior and analysts might design
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: activities or visual aids that manipulate emotional cues, and they
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: could do this to facilitate learning of the appropriate or
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: maybe not appropriate, but like learning of some reactions that
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: are likely to garner favorable outcomes in different contexts. So, like,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: what's a way that you can respond to a situation
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: like that that is going to be the most productive
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: for you, and how you would essentially like that experience
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: to go. And this approach enables therapists to foster positive
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: behavior changes by carefully controlling the sort of scenario and
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: the emotional environment to provide practice opportunities and structure and
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: guidance around like how to most productively navigate some of
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: those situations.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, some of the tech things that we talked about
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: inside of this that the filmmakers use can actually be
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: built into social skills training programs that might include role
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: playing or video modeling methods. They can use some of
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: the same techniques where you have like cuts to people
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: and then cuts to environmental stimuli, and we can actually
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: use these techniques to help people recognize the interpret those
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: emotional responses. In those settings, we can actually start kind
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: of creating unique settings and unique circumstances where we say,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: here's a situation, here's the response, situation response, and we
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: can ask questions like, is this an incongruent response to
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: this particular situation? Like the other day I was talking
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: to somebody. They were not a client, they did not
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: have a diagnosis, but I was talking to somebody and
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: they were very, very upset and had a very large
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: emotional reaction to the fact that their egg McMuffin had
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: not arrived on time. And so you know, we were
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: kind of having conversations like this is an incongruent response
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: to the severity of the situation. So when you start
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: interplicing those things, it's like, oh, missing egg McMuffin, screaming
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: and screaming and screaming, Well, maybe those don't match up.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: So like being able to use as a teaching opportunity
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: in those situations, in those social situations, it can be
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: really valuable.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Fair point. I appreciate that example too a lot. I
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: think that that does help underscore because I am sure
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: that most of the people listening to this have either
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: been the person having that reaction or have observed that reaction,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: because I think most of us have been there in
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: one scenario or another. So that's a really good one. Yeah, okay,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: So understanding how context impacts behavior also aids in our assessments,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: which is really important because the assessments are the tools
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: by which we gauge what's working and what isn't, Like
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: do we need to do anything here, and if so,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: what is it? And this allows practitioners to pinpoint those
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: triggers and reinforcers or like motivations for particular behaviors, and
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: this insight could be crucial for crafting the individualized intervention
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: that is necessary to facilitate whatever change the individual like
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: for themselves in the in the whatever scenario you're facing.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Right by accounting for the coolest shop effect, right by
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: looking at this thing and saying, hey, this is the
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: thing that we might believe exists and it might work.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: We can actually use behavior analytic principles to focus on
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: these more complex social relations, social behavior cognitive skills, and
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: those skills related to emotional intelligence and social cognition, those
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: types of those behaviors that are related to those situations,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: especially for children who have trouble in those social circumstances
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: or adults with those social issues, we can actually enhance
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: their adoptive functioning in those social context by giving them
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: multiple cues and multiple opportunities and multiple response examples to
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: attend to those stimuli and how we can relate those
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: so and it's really great. I mean, this is probably
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: a really great opportunity for looking at things like RFT
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: and ACT and how we can build those skills inside
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: of that, because there are so many different ways to
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: respond to particular environmental cues and how to relate those cues,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: and how those cues can actually elicit emotional responses, and
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: how we can recognize those emotional responses and whether or
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: not they are congruent with that particular situation. There's a
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: lot to do inside of this. If we account for
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: this effect of splicing stimuli together and seeing how they
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: elicit responses.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: There really is Yeah, you're absolutely right. So just to
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: sort of sort of summarize and concisely bring together everything
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: we've discussed so far, the kolest Shav effect can and
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: has informed psychology specific practice of psychology and behavior analysis.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: And it does this by emphasizing the importance of context
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: and the emotional and behavioral development of individuals, and this
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: can guide therapeutic processes and enhance communication and cognitive skills.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: But but what if the kolist Shov effect is not
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: actually even real? Ooh, cliffhanger, because here's some ads. Ooh,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: all right, So I left you with the nugget that
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: maybe the kolest Shav effect is an illusory effect. It
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: is one that we think is real, but we are
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: maybe chasing something that is less there than we thought
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: it was. So there's another podcast that is called Stuff
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. They did a whole couple of
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: episodes on the Kolishev effect and they found a research
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: paper that actually maybe debunked the effects that they summarized.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: The paper is called quote the Koolishev Effect Recreating the
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: classic experiment end quote by Stephen Prince and Wayne E. Hensley,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: and they were exploring the historical significance and implications of
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: the Koulishev effect.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, so the author's detailed the classic experiment that was
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: earlier to discussed, where the actor Mojuken's neutral expression was
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: intercut with scenes such as soup and a coffin leading
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: audiences to ascribe emotional depth to his performance. Prince and
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Hensley critically assessed the historical accounts of Koulishev's experiment, questioning
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: its accuracy and validity of its conclusions.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, to be really fair, it did
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: not feel like it was set up particularly experimentally for
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: one thing. And also, experiments at this time, I'm even rigorous,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: like scientific ones were more hit or miss in terms
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: of how well designed those experiments were. Sometimes they were
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: really good, like to be clear, but there were also
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: plenty where they were really in search of an outcome
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: and happy to pursue that and ignore the counter evidence
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: that existed. But let's go ahead and just unpack what
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: they did. So they recreated the experiment again, this is
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: intercutting the actor's face and then other scenes and then
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: cutting back to the face. But they found different results,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: suggesting while the broader implications of the Koulishov effect may
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: be valid, the specific claim about the neutral faces and
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: the effect that you can get on the emotional interpretation
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: of those faces is more complex than or at least
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: it might be more complex than originally described in a
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Kulishev's first experiments. So The authors here emphasized that Koulishev's
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: belief in montage power, asserting that editing shapes film meaning
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: beyond individual shots, and the authors discuss Kouleshov's view that
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: naturalistic performances aren't essential. Instead, he advocated for clear, minimal
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: gestures to facilitate effective editing. And this perspective raises questions
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: about the roles of actors, directors, and editors in shaping
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: narratives and impact in film, and they draw parallels to
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: directors like Vernon Herzog, who favored restrained performances to enhance
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: editing effectiveness, versus other directors who actually try and encourage
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: very intensive emotional reactions to convey the scene or the
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: narrative or what's going on. And I think that this
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: is a good example too here because essentially, what I
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: think the argument they're making is that the edits themselves
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: are actually part of the overall broader story that can help.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: That's the context of that scene even more powerful, and
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: just the scene cutting itself is not actually the primary variable.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: It's just a variable in the soup of emotional triggers
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: that are being conveyed in that story, which is totally okay,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: And I also think that, like those things all play
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: a major performance. Actors are obviously central to how lines
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: are delivered and emotions are expressed. Directors will choose what
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: is the one that best conveys how they're trying to
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: tell that story. The editors stitch it together in such
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: a way that it makes all the difference in terms
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: of how it lands emotionally. And I've actually I've gone
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: down a few YouTube wormholes where people will re edit
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: scenes from a movie to make that same movie appear
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: to be different genres. So it's like a family movie,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: and they'll edit it so it looks like a horror movie. Yes,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: And all they're doing is clipping the scenes in a
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: particular order, and sometimes they'll change the music, or sometimes
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: they'll change the lighting or shading a little bit. But like,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: all they're really doing is just editing some existing sequences,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: and it can drastically affect how you interpret the meaning
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: of those scenes.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, While acknowledging the role of editing, the author's
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: critique Koulishev's assertion that shots lacked meaning on their own,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: arguing that the individual shot content is significant, they also
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: suggest that Kuloshev's ideas may have been influenced by industrial
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: efficiency principles, reflecting a desire for simplification and acting to
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: optimize production.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: The author is here caution against blending artistic theory with
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: good empirical science and emphasize the need for critical examination
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: of experimental methods to unpack this. More so, they explore
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: the challenges in recreating Koulishev's conditions and discuss their findings,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: which essentially indicated that most viewers perceived no emotions in
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the neutral faces, which contrasted with Koulishev's original conclusions. And
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out that I'm not sure where these
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: authors were at, but it's possible that Koulishev's audience and
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: their time and that country and that culture had a
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: different type of reaction to the kinds of shots he
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: was crafting than a different culture in a different time
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: might react two similar shots. So I think that it's
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: also the fact that our expectations of movies have changed
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: over time, and different cultures are going to respond to
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: different social cues in particular ways. And also like how
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: those movies are edited and shaped over time, and how
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: they've developed has changed over time, So there are so
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: many variables wrapped up in the extent to which this
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: effect is going to show up and be meaningful in
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: film and other storytelling, that we just have to consider
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: that we're only getting maybe a tiny, tiny sliver of
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: the relevant factors that might be at play here.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Right in the paper raises questions about audience expectation, suggesting
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: that modern viewers are less responsive to simple montages due
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: to exposure to advance editing techniques. They also consider response
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: biased in Koulishev's original experiment, highlighting the importance of double
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: blind testing to eliminate such biases now.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: Ultimately, the authors argue that while the kolest Hev effect
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: reveals some important principles about editing and emotion and the
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: source of storytelling space if you will, its original claims
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: may not hold in the more contemporary contexts. And again,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: it could be that this is like a passage of
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: time thing that like, as there have been more and
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: more and more movies, and our expectations about movies have changed,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: and how movies are shot and edited has changed, that
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: like that affects how we then perceive these things at
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: this point in time, but the authors conclude by acknowledging
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: that further research continues to explore the complexities of emotional
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: interpretation and in film, noting that the kolest Hev effect
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: does remain a topic of ongoing inquiry. So whether or
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: not the effect is as robust or it appears to
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: play the exact role that koolest Shav described and his
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: initial experiments, it's part of the conversation. It is influencing
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: filmmaking now today. So the effect the kolest Shov effect
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: may be how it influenced directors and editors more than
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: how it influenced the audience, but who knows, Like it
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: could be both of those things too.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think as I kind of walk away from
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: this idea of the effect, like and how, because I
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: think when we're talking about filmmaking, ultimately it comes down
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: to an interpretation of art, right, interpreting stimuli, interpreting how
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: things go together, how I'm supposed to emotionally respond to
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: this particular art piece. And I do think that there
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: and this is going to be this is gonna be
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: something that's very like not anti science, but maybe pro art,
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: which is to me, I think it's perfectly fine to
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: leave art as it is and let people react and
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: respond in the ways that are meaningful for them to
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: that particular art piece. I think that it is going
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: to be nearly impossible to understand how that effect could happen,
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: given and everybody's individual learn histories and their biases towards
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: particular stimuli in particular contexts, and their own experiences around
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: different elements that are inside of that particular those related stimuli.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: And I think it's okay that maybe we don't need
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: to study the coolest shop effect because I think that
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: we can kind of leave it as an experience with
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: art and a human emotional like an anecdotal report, and
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: very qualitative subjective experiences around people's interpretations with art pieces.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: That's just my thought on that.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's fair. I mean, I think
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: you're right. It's like, how much would we get out
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: of studying this effect directly as compared to understanding more
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: broadly just how we respond to and engage meaningfully with
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: art and narrative and storytelling. Right, It's like, I don't
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: know if we need to chase that particular effect. We
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: could be asking all kinds of questions and getting all
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: kinds of meaningful answers rather than trying to just confirm
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: or disconfirm that one hypothesis. Right, you know, I think
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: a nice open ended approach to thinking about the psychology
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: of how we learn from storytelling and narrative and art
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: is really cool and I think there's a lot of
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: really great questions inside of that. So, you know, it's
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: it is an interesting effect. It's why we wanted to
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: talk about it on here is because it's out there
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: in the world and it's having some influence one way
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: or another, and it's it is kind of unique, and
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: we wanted to sort of think about the sort of
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: role that it plays our and our consumption of media
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: and art. But I also think, like to the critics
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: of this, the study here that sort of was critically
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: thinking about the coolest j of effect, and others have
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: pointed this out too as just thinking about like where
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: do we go from here? And I think you said
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: it exactly right, is I think where we go from
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: here is like, let's look at what there is to
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: look at in terms of what we get emotionally from art.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if the coolest of effect is
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: where we need to be sinking all of our time
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: and money.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Right, that's where I land on all of this.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Beautiful all right, well, I think that's what we have
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: to say about the coolest sho of effect. Again, thank
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: you so much to our new writer Katie for putting
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: together the notes for this discussion. Happy to have her
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: on board. And actually that kind of leads me to
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: I may as well give all the credits where credit
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: is due. Writing and fact checking from Shane, Katie and myself.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: We are the sort of research team behind this. Our
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: social media coordinator is Elma Wilson, and the person who
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: edits this all together so that you can listen to
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: it and want to listen to it to the extent
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: that that's possible is justin So thank you so much
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: to my team, and thank you, of course to everyone
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: who has listened with us today. We're actually not done though.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: If you've never been with us before, then we are
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: going to recommend some things. It's a really fun part
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: of the show where we just talk about a thing
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: that we've found some joy in that we're recommending for you.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: But before we do that, I'd also like to point
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: out that if you would like to support the show,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: you can leave us rating and a review. Make sure
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: you subscribe so that we're always showing up in your feed,
• 53:01
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• 53:03
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• 53:05
  Speaker 1: shirts and hoodies and whatnot, and they say cool, fun
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: things on them that are clever and quippy, that's true.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: You can also tell a friend like word of mouth
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: is a really important way to spread the gospel of podcast.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: And of course you can join our little club over
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, and there's a handful of really cool people
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: over there that really help us do this show because
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: unfortunately it's not free. It's not crazy expensive, but it's
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: not free, and so we really do depend on like
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: the ad revenue that we get in our awesome, mega
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: wonderful supporters over on Patreon, which includes Mike m Megan,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, Ashley,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Michelle and you too can have your name
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  Speaker 1: read on that list if you'd like to go join
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: us over there. We appreciate all of those people.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: We love them so so, so so so much.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that I forgot or that you'd like
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: to add before we get to our recommendations.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Shane, No, I think that covers.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: It that I'd like to add.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: Get it like, uh boo, all.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: Right, let's recommend some things.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: Recommendations.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: So, speaking of art, I read a really great book
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: recently and it was an impulse by I was stuck
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: in an airport. I had just read Upgrade by Blake Crouch,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: and I had no other book to read, and so
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: I needed to buy a new book to read on
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: my trip return trip from Denver, and I purchased a
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: book called The Art Thief by Michael Finkel. Okay, this
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: book is a true crime nonfiction book about a man
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: named Stephen Wiser.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, and he was a French art thief.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: That's pretty much. That's all he's known for. He is
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: one of the most notorious art thieves in history because
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: he stole two hundred and thirty nine pieces of art
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: across one hundred and seventy two European museums in six years.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: And here's how he did it. Wow, he didn't break in,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: he didn't sneak in like a cat burglar. What he
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: did was he shoplifted all of them. He would just
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: grab them and put him in his in his backpack,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: or he grabbed the art piece and put it in
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: his jacket and he would just walk out. He stole
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: anywhere between one point four and two billion dollars worth
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: of art.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: And you know what he did with it.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: He didn't sell any of it. He put it in
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: his attic and with it that he lived in with
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: his girlfriend, so in his mom's attic, I could say,
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: because he so he didn't have a job and all
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: he did was steel art. As a matter of fact,
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: if you go on his Wikipedia page, his only occupation
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: on there is art thief seeing story because he would
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: just like every couple of weeks he'd be like, I'm
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: gonna go grab this, and he would just steal stuff,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: like from every museum that he could possibly go to
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: across seven countries in Europe and just would just shoplift
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: all the stuff and just hang it up in his attic.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: And it's a really fascinating just a fascinating story.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: So this is a nonfiction book.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: This is a non fiction book took place in the nineties.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: He started stealing in nineteen ninety five and stole all
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: the way up through two thousand and one. Who yeah.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Wow, there should be more movies where the thievery the
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: heist is like in plain sight, pickpocketing. That's what it was.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: The only tool he ever used was a Swiss army knife.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's impressive. It's incredible. Not that we're condonating stealing art,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: but interesting story, I guess.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a really fascinating story, like really really, it's
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: like some of the pieces he stole were like some
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: of them were never recovered and in that they explained
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: that in the in the book, but like it was
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: a really fascinating read.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Well, not speaking of art, I'm recommending a TV show.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: So I think I've actually recommended this show before, but
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: they were just wrapping up their the third season. It's
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: called Crime Scene Kitchen. Do you remember me talking about this?
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: I do remember you talking about this, Yes.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I'll give a quick overview. The premise is
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: essentially is a baking competition show, and what happens is
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: there's a kitchen where some dessert was made and there's
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: like remnants of it, and different teams of bakers go
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: into the kitchen and they try and deduce by the
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: ingredients that were used and the baking utensils that were
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: used what the thing was, and then they go and
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: make it and they present it to judges, and there's
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: two rounds. In the first round, whoever gets the closest
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: to being correct doesn't have to participate in the second round,
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: and in the second round, whoever's the furthest away from
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: getting correct is booted off the show. And so what's
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: kind of cool about it too, is like, if you
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: didn't do a very good job making it, but you
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: were the closest guesser, you can win. And so it's
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: not even about as much like your good baking as
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: it is your good detective skills. Yeah, and it's it's
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: just a really fun show. It's hosted by Joel McHale.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: I really enjoy it. It's on Fox, but it's also
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: streaming on Hulu. You can find it there. So if
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: you're into sort of reality baking competition shows with a
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: crime or a true crime theme, then this show is
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: definitely for you. But it's it's just fun. It's just
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: a good time. It's enjoyable. It's like most of the
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: desserts that they do are like things I've never heard
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: of before, So like you're trying to figure it out
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: with the bakers. But I'm sort of like, I think
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: they are the closest to maybe having it right.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Because no idea.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they're like, oh, clearly a shoe pastry was
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: made because there's flower and like water or something that
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: was like, okay, sure, you're like, what if you say so,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: I would assume that's cake, right anyway, So season three
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: is about wrapping up pretty soon. It's got maybe a
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: couple more weeks left, but at the time that this releases,
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: it might only have one episode left or maybe even
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: be done. So it's a fun watch. It's really light.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: It's really easy for those of us who need the
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: distraction right now, and probably most of the people listening do.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: That can be a way to spend your time.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, good job, thanks all right.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: So that's Crime Scene Kitchen season three, and The Art Thief,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: which is a book by Michael Finkel. If you would
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: like to tell us about a baking competition show or
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: a true crime sort of book that you're interested in,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: or you have some thoughts on the coolest shov Effect
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: and anything that we said about it here, you can
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: reach us directly by emailing us at info at wwdwwdpodcast
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: dot com, or you can reach us on the social
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: media platforms. I'm given understand that like Blue Sky is
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: a new one that's kind of blowing up right now.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: So yes, maybe we'll show up on there.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am on there, so you can follow me
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: on there and we can talk. But so far I'm
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: liking it. It's very anti Musk so that's pretty great.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Well, there was one of the top posts I just
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: went to the website. It said there's something deeply amusing
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: about the Musclings coming here and realizing there's no algorithm
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: to boost their rage bait, which was their main advantage
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: on Twitter.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, so that by itself is pretty appealing to me.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: So it's possible I'll be recommending Blue Sky and then
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: not too distant Catcher.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll we'll see how it plays out.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: That is what we have to say about the coolest
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: shov Effect. Thank you so much for listening. Is there
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: anything that I forgot or that you'd like to add
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: before we wrap this up? Shane, No, and it covers
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: it cool. Well, we'll see you all next week. Although
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: I forgot to say this before we release short for
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: mini episodes on Mondays. Our full length episodes are on Wednesdays.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: This is one of those, so catch us on Monday
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: or next week for a full length episode. But again,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: that's all I've got for you. So this is Abraham
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: and this is Shane. We're out.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: See ya.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: going to ww D w w D podcast dot com.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we hope you have an awesome day.