Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Shocking Update on Philly House Of Horror! Proof of Snuff Film

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Shocking Update on Philly House Of Horror! Proof of Snuff Film · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Moore. I got to tell you,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: there are just certain cases that Brother Dave and I
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: dig into when sometimes it feels as though that, I
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: don't know, we've left ourselves and you wanting. One such
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: case is... this case that has come to us out
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of Philadelphia and has been a big splash in the news,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I felt it was necessary to get together with you
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: folks and have a conversation about what we're looking at
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: forensically here and maybe what the future holds in this
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: case because I've got to tell you, this thing is
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: multilayered and every single day it seems as though more
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: information is disturbing information comes across my desk. I'm Joseph
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Brother Dave, this
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: thing has taken on a life of its own, which
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: is quite tragic, you know, in the sense that the
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: case has taken on a life of its own, but
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: it is foundationally built on what I believe are very
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: tragic deaths in some of the most horrific, uh, circumstances.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I think that, that, uh, we could consider, and you
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: know that here's the interesting thing, brother, we don't have
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: definitive causes of death, but yet we see things at
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: the scene, or we are being told about things that
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: have been seen at the scene that, uh, would make
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: the most resilient people out there buckle at the knees.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Because this stuff is, when they call it the house
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of horrors, they're not off by too much.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: The scary part about this story, and we did cover this, right?
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we did.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought so, just not that long ago, because
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: it was such a horrific story. And this is an update.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: And the reason we're doing the update is because when
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: we did the initial story, there was a lot of
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: information that And some of it was factual, some of
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: it wasn't. So we were very careful with what we
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: put out. And it's only been in the last few
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: weeks that it's come into focus as to what was
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: taking place in the house. It's called the Philly House
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: of Horrors. It's an area in Philadelphia in Olney. Isn't
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: that what it's called? Olney. Yeah. I've been corrected several
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: times on how we say things.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: And Philadelphians are very particular about.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: The way they pronounce things. And we appreciate you. Yeah,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: we do.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: We really do.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: It's just we're not from there. And it's kind of
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: like here and where we are. Every city, every town
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: has some unique name that is not pronounced the way
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: it looks. And Philadelphia seems to have more of those.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And it's not out of disrespect that we do it.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: But we have dealt with a number of stories out
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: of Philly that have been shocking. Ellen Greenwood comes to mind.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And those case that case just still horrific, you know,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: but this case we're dealing with missing women and snuff films.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: A snuff film is a film of a murder that
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: is sold to satisfy the prurient interest of somebody who
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: gets their jollies by watching such a thing. some people
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: will say they don't really exist. That's, that's just a,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: that's some kind of urban myth. Yeah. Urban legend type thing.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Hey, let me interject right here real quick. I got
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: to tell you, brother, you probably wouldn't be because you
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: know me and we know each other so well, but
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I cannot tell you over the years, how many people
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: have come up to me and ask me this question.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Are snuff films real? Now I don't know if I
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: look like a snuff film producer or, Or I think
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: that the idea is, do you have any evidence that
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: you've worked cases where people have used a human being,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: a living human being, as essentially a prop in order
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: to sell something to a group of people that are
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: involved in what I would describe as, well, I'd say
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: it's necrophilia, but necrophiles are individuals that engage in, um,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: in sexual activity with the dead that this, this snuff film,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: you say, well, yeah, you got necrophilia, but let me
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: tell you something that's worse than that. Oh my gosh.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: You know, where are you going to go with this Morgan? Well,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: the part of it is, um, apparently allegedly people like
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: to see the life drained out of somebody because it
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: excites them. Just, um, just imagine, uh, what a, What
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: a base kind of, I don't know, worldview that is,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: you know, when you can objectify another human being like that.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Dying. Yeah. Being murdered.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: And by the way, not just being murdered, but being
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: murdered on camera. It's planned ahead of time. So there's
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: a lot that goes into a snuff film. There was
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: an idea that Berkowitz, the son of Sam Killings, that
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: at least one of those was for a snuff film.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've heard that before. Yeah. Yeah.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Um, but in this case we are dealing with a pornographer, uh,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: named Raymond Horsch and his son, Eugene. Raymond died a
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: couple of years ago and even on his death bed,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: he was directing pornography shoots. Okay. And was getting his
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: jollies according to one of the women who was, uh,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: the subject matter that was being filmed photographed that he
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: was getting his that he was excited while he directed
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: he's you know 81 dying and he's that's who we're
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: dealing with Raymond and Eugene now Raymond is dead the
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: only reason we know of the story is his son
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Eugene who was caught as we covered in our first
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: episode back in June where he was arguing with a
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: woman and in a car and they were seen arguing.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I believe the term was, you're going to hurt me.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: That was what the woman was saying to Eugene inside
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: the BMW, and it was a park ranger. You know,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: it was right there in Philadelphia where they have a
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: number of historically significant things, and in this case, park
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: ranger was covering this area. He heard That you're going
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: to hurt me. Got involved in it. And that is
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: what blew the lid off this case. We did it.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: It was not the first time the residents had been
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: in in the police eyeline. OK, but this is where
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Eugene Horsch, the son of Raymond Horsch, was actually arrested.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: It's where the current charges come from. The woman in
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: the car had the ID of somebody who was missing.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: And that was what really began where we are now.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: So far, we've got seven missing and or dead women
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: attached to this one address. And when police began their investigation,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: if you remember, this house had multiple levels. And in
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: the bottom, I was going to say the basement, but
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: there is in this house, there is the first room,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: you know, when you walk into it, like the living room, right? Well,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: upstairs is a dungeon. Normally when we think of dungeon,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: we think downstairs, but in this house, the dungeon is
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: a set for taking film and pictures, and it's upstairs.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Downstairs in the basement is where barrels were found, and
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: it appeared that somebody in the horse home had tied
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: pipes into possibly the sewage draining. No. And we have
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: chemicals that are found. The chemicals could be used to disintegrate.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Render.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Render. Yeah. A human being into sludge.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, and that's, you know, that's, that's really a
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: disturbing thing. If you go back to horses writings, uh, he, uh,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: you know, he had written these kind of fantastical books.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I think one in one book, he identifies himself as a, uh,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to get this wrong. I know a
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: sympathetic serial killer, um, you know, which is this weird turn,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: you know, um, Here's the thing about it is that
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: he alludes, or has alluded at least at some point
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: in time, to using the substance Lye, L-Y-E. Now, Lye's
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: got a long history in humankind. I mean, we've used
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: it for years and years. My granny actually used Lye soap.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, that was what granny on the Beverly Hillbillies talked about,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Lye soap.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it was something that, Rural people in particular,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: and it was not just limited to the rural people.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: It's been used in all manner of things. It's actually still...
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: used in cooking, like pretzels, for instance.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: What? Wait a minute.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, tortillas. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. But
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: what they could produce it out of was ashes. And
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: so if you have ashes, you can begin with this
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: process of creating– creating sodium hydroxide is what it comes
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: down to. And so it's at the opposite end of
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the spectrum from an acid, okay? So it comes in
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: like a powder form. Acid, if you think about like
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: hydrochloric acid, acid is what's referred to as it's in
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: an aqueous state, just like water, okay? So if you
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: use acid, hydrochloric acid, for instance, is used as a
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: drain cleaner, It'll break down organics in there, has to
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: be stored in plastic, those sorts of things. Lies at
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum, and it can, in fact,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: be utilized for the same purpose. So that's the big
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: conundrum here. And here's something interesting, Dave, from an investigative standpoint.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it makes any difference or not,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: but I got to tell you, I am not I
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: am not going to, my eye is not going to
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: necessarily be drawn to somebody that's going out to purchase lye. Okay.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: If you're buying acid, that really puts you on the radar, right?
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Because lye has got so much utility. And number one
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: is like a drain cleaner. Because what it does is
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: if you've got anything stuck in your drain, all that
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: is required is to do the application of lye, and
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: it begins at a molecular level to break down the fats.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: And so it literally dissolves things. So if you've got
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: like grease, you've got, I don't know, you've trimmed off
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: a steak, for instance, and it's gone into your drain,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: even hair, all this stuff, it will, and if you particularly,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: if you add water to it, it gives off a
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: tremendous amount of heat. I mean, because you can be burned.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: You can have lye burns. And this is something that, yeah,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: my granny, it's weird. I reflect back at this stage
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: of my life, but I think about my grandmother in
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: rural North Louisiana, and she talked about this.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I'm looking this up, and you can buy it.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I never thought that in my wildest dreams I'd be
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: kind of revisiting this.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: While we're talking, I'm looking it up online. Where could
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I buy lye? And it's right here. It's all... There
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: are 10 places within five minutes of me that I
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: can go to Amazon. Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: There's a physical location. There's any number of physical– but
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: you can go out and you can buy acid as well.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: I just– I find it– if this is a substance
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: that this individual was using, okay, I'm thinking about, well,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: how did he land on this to decide this is
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: what he wanted to use? I'm referring to our seahorse
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: right now. How did he land on this? When did
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: he begin to formulate this in his mind? If, in fact,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: there are bodies that were, in fact, rendered with the substance.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: So how did he get to that point? At what
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: point in time along this twisted journey, if we are
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: to believe everything that has been put out, and right
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: now it's getting really, really dark, Um, I, you know, I, yeah, I'm,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, so why'd you go, why'd you
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: go with a lie instead of going with hydrochloric acid here? Um,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just, you know, inquiring minds want
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: to know, I want to try to understand this. And
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: then I think after the fact, cause this guy's, you know,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: dead as Julius Caesar now. So you can't go back and,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: you know, drag him up out of the grave and
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: shake him, you know, what happened, that sort of thing.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So investigators are now left with these huge questions about
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: all of the remnant that was down there in that basement.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: And Brother Dave, I got to tell you, right now,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions, but I also have
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of suspicions as well. All right, so we've
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: got this connected VAT system that's down there. It's the
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: only way I really know how to describe it. And
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I love the fact, and I've seen this in writing,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: but you and I, I think we talked about it
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: a while ago, this term sludge. And if people don't
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: know what sludge is, if you look at it, for instance,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. If you've ever seen like
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: dirty oil that has been taken out of a car,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: for instance, It does have kind of a sludgy appearance
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: to it. It's very thick. The term is generally viscous.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: It's more viscous than water, which implies a level. As
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: a matter of fact, motor oil companies, they will use
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: the term, it's got a certain kind of viscosity to it. Well,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: that's viscous. So you're thinking thick. It's aqueous, but it's thick.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: So they've got multiple containers that they have found at
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: this location. that contain, and they're describing it as a
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: sludge-like substance, which means that it's not just pure liquid, brother.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: You've got some particulate matter in there. I think the
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: big question is, these have been sent off to a laboratory, right,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: in Chicago, from what I understand. Wouldn't you hate to
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: be the one that had to transport that from Philly
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: to Chicago? Somebody had to do that, just keep in mind.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: I don't think it was sent buy a mail service.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I don't think, you know, your local postal carrier, you know. Right.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Dangerous stuff. And so I'm thinking, and this is a
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: specialized lab. Well, they've had this stuff for a while.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: And I got to be honest with you, just from a,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: they will employ, I think, everything at their disposal in
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: order to try to break the elements of this down.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I would not be surprised even if they might use
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: electron microscopy here, Dave, if they can take a sample
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: of this and look at some of this particulated matter
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: that's in there. What we're looking at first off is
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: there has to be a chemical identity of this stuff.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: What's the base chemical foundation of this? Are we actually
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: talking about sodium hydroxide here? And can you still get
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to that point where you can understand it? Secondly, you're
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: having to try to determine if they're, well, first off,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: you would have to determine what organic substances are in there.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is like any kind
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: of tissue. All right. Do we have hair? Do we
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: have muscle tissue? Do we have fat? Do we have skin? Well,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: if you do that, we can't just say based upon that,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: that these are human remains. Can't do that. And it
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: stand up in court. You have to take it another
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: step and say, okay, we have definitively arrived at this
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: location where we know that these are human remains. Well,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: where do we go from there? Well, whose remains are they?
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the big problems. Even if you
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: get to that point, how are you going to determine
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: whose remains are they? Because, brother, I got to tell you,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I think that the DNA is going to be, potentially
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: compromised here because of the way this stuff works i'm
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: look i'm i'm a spectator here too with everybody else
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: because i gotta tell you i've never come across a
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: case like this i've never worked a case like this
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: i've worked cases where bodies have been rendered but not
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: would lie and so so i'm thinking i'm just i'm
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: spitballing here with you right now we're you know we're
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: chatting ways me doing most of chatting but i'm kind
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: of thinking out loud You know, because you literally, I
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: know forensically, you have to go through all of these
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: stages before you can definitively identify something.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Well, the one thing that we have, okay, when investigators
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: went inside the house, you've got to remember that they
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: knew about R.C. Horse, the, you know, pornographer, writer, whatever,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: weird guy, and his son, Eugene, Horse, living in the
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: same house. So it's not like the police didn't have
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: an idea about, that there was some stuff taking place
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: in this home, but they didn't know to what level. Now,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: in the case that has broken up, we've got missing women.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: And in cases, and the reason we're talking about this
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: is because there are over a million pictures, just to
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: give you an idea, okay? A million photos. There's hundreds
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: of hours of video. And most of it taken right
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: there inside the home. And in some of these pictures,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: they have one of these missing women who is alive
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: while they're doing a film. And then there's another photo
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: that appears to show this person now dead. In one
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: particular case, Joe, R.C. Horsch is taking photos of a
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: woman who is alive, but then she is handcuffed by
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: horse he has two cameras one is in his hand
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: another is a static camera on a tripod filming everything
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: he handcuffs the woman to the bed then uses a
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: zip tie to strangle her filming it the whole while
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Until the woman appears to be dead. This is what
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: we are told is on this one video they found.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: In the hundreds, thousands of hours that they've got to
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: go through.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Can I interject something real quick? Because I've got to
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: tell you, man. I've seen Philly cops come up to
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: the lectern with a microphone there. And you can see
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: it in their eyes. I'm not real big on projection
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: like this. But they're saying things like we've– and this
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: is Philadelphia, dude. They've seen a thing or two. You
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about, brother? And they're saying we've
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: never encountered this. It's almost like the gaping maw of
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: hell they've looked into at this point in time. And
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I know I'm being overly dramatic.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: No, you're not. You're underplaying it. Believe it or not.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: And God bless them because they're having to view this stuff.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: They'll never get out of their brain. But they're trying
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: to make their way through it. You know, something I'm
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: very curious about here, because we know that the feds
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: are deeply invested in this case. And for any number
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: of reasons, we know that the sun has been hooked
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: up on weapons charges. There's also dope involved. So with
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: that said, if you think about the digital evidence and
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: this stuff is being distributed worldwide, okay, we know that
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: the feds certainly would have an interest in this. I'm
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: really wondering from a forensic standpoint with these images that
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: they have, I'm wondering if biometrics is going to come
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: into play here with these unidentified women's faces, you know,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and what kind of database do they have to draw
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: upon here, you know, where they can go and validate, say,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: a living photo of someone that is missing. My sister
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Susie is missing, right? Here's a photo of her At
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: 21 years of age, you see what I'm saying? They
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: kind of draw this thing out like they do with biometrics,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: and they're looking for all those markers and everything, and
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: then you've got the horse photo. And is there a way?
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: You know, we talk a lot about DNA, right? And admittedly,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: digital forensics is not my bailiwick necessarily. I know enough
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: to be dangerous, but I'm wondering if there is a
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: way biometrically if they can overlie these things or overlay them.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Forgive me. And actually say definitively, well, within a reasonable
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: scientific certainty, which is what we always have to say,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: that's caveat, is this Susie, the missing sister. And Dave,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: did you say that there were a million images?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: 600,000 images, digital. Okay. But I say that because that's just,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: we're still estimating. It's more than 600,000. I did say
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: a million. I was thinking collectively from the stills and
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: the videos. 70,000 videos. 10,000 pages of manuscripts, Joe. Writings
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: and drawings. And just that alone is a volume that
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: most police departments don't see over 25 years. And they've
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: got it in one house. Now, again, the part that
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: really got all this fired up is you've got at
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: least two women who appear alive in pictures and video
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: and then appear to be dead in pictures and video.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: I described one to you that they actually have this video,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: but they can't just start Throwing names around. You know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: investigators have to... You've got to contact family and everything else.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: It's a daunting task. But, Joe, we talked about... In
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: the last episode, we talked about the laboratory downstairs and
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: what it could possibly be used for. But when you
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: reached out this week, it was because of R.C. Horsch
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: having a relationship with a crematorium.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: And it's a... A funeral home, or is it a
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: funeral home, or are they separated? Is it a crematorium?
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And we've got bodies and body parts being sold, Joe.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: And we've got R.C. Horsch is somewhere in the middle
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they're dust up with that particular service provider,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: if you will. That occurred back in like 2007, 2008.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: And this is coming from reports that we've recently received,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I guess, within the last 24 hours. that Horsch had
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: visited this location. And I'm trying to frame this out
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: to understand, well, if they've been shut down in any way,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: is the physical structure still there? I'd seen one report,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: I think, that they said that he had visited as
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: recently as right before his death.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Wow. Which was in May of 2025.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: We do have urns in the house that contain cremains.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: We've got five. Two are unidentified. You know, for all
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: I know, they're puppy dogs. Okay, I have no idea.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: But they have not been able to identify those. And
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: you've got a couple of different things that are working
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: here regarding trying to get IDs on a variety of
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: these items that are found within the structure that is
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: going to make this particularly difficult. So you've got these urns.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: that contain apparently cremains, which means that they have been
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: directly subjected to fire, right? Okay. We've talked about cremains before.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: And just to revisit that very quickly, we've got an oven,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: a crematory that will burn at about 1400 to maybe
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: 1700 degrees. It's hot, baby. And depending upon the size
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: of the body, They're going to be left in that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: oven for a particular, people hate the term oven, but
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: it's a cremation device. They're going to be left within
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: there as long as it takes to render the body down.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: And many times that'll take a couple of hours, okay?
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: So what are you going to have at the end
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: of that? Well, after the body is cremated, it doesn't
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: end there. They pass the body through an auger, which
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: crushes anything that's left behind you know, contained within the
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: cremains to make it powder. Now I've recovered cremains before Dave,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and I got to tell you, I know they've either,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: I've had, they used to, they used to use opposing
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: rolling stones. They're like heavy stone, like marble. And the
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: remains would pass through there in these opposing stones rolling
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: in opposite directions. And they would crush that way. They've
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: also used augers as well. Um, To crush or pulpify,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: turn it into dust. Dude, I've looked through a lot
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: of cremains. I still see particulate bone. I've seen bits
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: of teeth. Jewelry survives many times. Dental plates.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: I got to tell you something, Joe, because when my
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: mother was cremated and she wanted to have her ashes
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: spread at Ocracoke Island, North Carolina, which is 20 plus
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: miles off the coast. Anyway, we did it. And because
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: I had only seen cremains being spread on TV, you know,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: and in films, I thought it was a cloud of dust,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: you know, that that's all it would be. And it
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: would be this sweet moment. And what came out of
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the bag was not powder and sand. It was some
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: pieces of bone and teeth that were recognizable as God
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: bless you, man. And it broke me. I, I, I
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: have warned people about this ever since. Uh, and granted
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: that was a long time ago, but I, because I
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: wasn't expecting it, it was a kick in the gut
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: that I, it took years to get over that. Yeah,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I bet it did.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: And you know, and, um, people are not prepared for that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: They think that it is in a powder form. But
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: you know, Dave, I've got to tell you, looking at
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that and what you have just described, therein might rest
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: a little hope. Dark stuff, brother. Very dark stuff. You know,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: one of the things that that has been troubling me
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: about this case is kind of the, cause I don't
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: understand it. I hope that we'll see a rendering of it.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be photos, but just some kind of
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: schematic of what they're talking about with this drum.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: And I've heard it. I think I've heard it described
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: as like a 50 gallon drum.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: It's got, it's got questions. I got questions for you
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: about this because we've got the one, we've both done
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: this show with Nancy about the House of Horrors and
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I had a chance to talk with one of the
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: victims one of the survivors and she described the house
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and described the smells and thankfully she only went to
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: one floor just the opening floor in that house But
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: when you came into that living room type area, it
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: was set up to do photography. They got to remember,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: this guy is a porn photographer and videographer. And that's
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: what that room was. Upstairs was a dungeon set. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: then downstairs in the basement was this laboratory. And in
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: that has been described a 55-gallon drum, a plastic drum,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: like you would expect Johnny Roselli to be stuffed into
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: in the golf. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there were other tubs,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: smaller tubs, that also contained a liquid that was like
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: a sluggish, oily substance. Now, in that 55-gallon barrel, there
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: was pipe going in and coming out. And, Joe, I mean,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: we're going to have to go there because there— we've
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: talked around it. Look, he's dismantling these. The assumption here
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: is that bodies were being taken apart and melted down.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: And yet now we have, I can't figure out how he,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: they would do this. Okay. My only thing is, um, in, in, uh,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: the crazy TV show, um, where they actually did that,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: put a body in a plastic drum and put chemicals
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: in it to melt them down to sludge, breaking bad.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm kind of picturing in my head, but
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: you've got to have room to do that. And I'm
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: thinking that these bodies have to be disarticulated.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Good term. I like that. And that's been my question.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: How do you manage this? Because let's just say you
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: have this chemical activity that is going on. We talked
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: about sodium hydroxide, right?
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Well, if you put the totality of an intact human
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: remain into a barrel, okay, and you make this application
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of a lye, and we're just throwing it out there
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: that it could be lye, okay, it ain't going to
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: happen overnight. And there's also going to be fumes that
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: come along with this. And is it is it aqueous?
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: You know, because I don't you know, you see in
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: movies lots of times where they'll take lie like somebody
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: will commit a homicide or there's a famous scene actually
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: in Full Metal Jacket where they have dug a trench
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of enemy that are dead or villagers,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: I think. And you can see them spreading lie on
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: a body before they cover the thing up. That's a
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: classic scene out of Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: I was thinking Fight Club.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, Fight Club too, but yeah, lies used
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to great effect, you know, in movies and whatnot, but
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: from a practical standpoint, this is going to take some
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: time to render a body down. You know who I
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: would really like to consult on this and ask them
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: this question because as much stuff as has gone on
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: up there, I bet you dollars to donuts that the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: faculty and staff at UT at the body farm, they
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: have applied lie to bodies because they do burn investigations too.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Matter of fact, there's a video, pretty infamous video out
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: there of them actually showing how bodies contract and fire.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: They go into what's called the pugilistic posture. They bury bodies,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: put them in trunks of cars, all kinds of stuff.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: So I'd really like to know what kind of data
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: set they have and trying to understand, look, if you're
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: going to put a, like if you have a grave
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: that is dug and you place the body intact into
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: a grave and you shower it with lye and then
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: you cover it over, well, they would have to go
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: back and measure that. And that's one of the things
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: they do. I don't think that people understand that. They
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: measure this. They would have to uncover it. They would
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: have to be able to watch it. So with that said,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: There have been other cases where lye applications have been used.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if they have ever done this with human
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: remains in, say, like a vat like this. How long
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: does it take? What are the variabilities, the size of
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: the individual, the temperatures, all these sorts of things that
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: play into it? I'm keenly interested in that relative to this,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: and if that data exists, I can guarantee you that
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the FBI would have access to that data. Now, This
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: is something, and we've got this kind of juxtaposition going
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: on here because we've got the cremated remains that are
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: there in the house, and then there is this term
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: that's bouncing around right now called wet cremation.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Exactly. But before you go there, Joe, okay, the cremation
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: or the body parts and things like that, all right,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: based on what I have learned from you, would there
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: not be some type of body stuff, bone.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see elements.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: In the room, on the walls, on the ceiling.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: No, that's an excellent point, brother, because if, let's just say,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: for instance, that you are attempting to render a body,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: and just for the sake of practicality, you're trying to
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: get it to fit into a space, or you believe
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: that with With the application of a lie or something
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: similar to that, if you use a smaller component of
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: a body, I'm trying to be as delicate as I
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: can here, maybe a smaller component of the body, head, arm, hand, foot,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: whatever the case might be, it's going to break down faster, right?
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Right. That's what I would think.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So I like what you've said here, because if that
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: rendering is going down and it involves tools, that's going
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: to left behind that. can potentially leave behind trace evidence.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: So you could still find things like bone dust, okay,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: or maybe, because it's not always dust. People think that
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: it's dust. You know, in the morgue, we use an
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: agitating saw, and it creates a cloud, you know, when
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: you open the skull or, you know, these sorts of things.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: But if you're using a sawzall, for instance, it's going
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: to leave chunks. And has all of that stuff been
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: accounted for? As horrible as that is, we're talking getting
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: down on your hands and knees in a Tyvek suit
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: and going inch by inch over this place. That's what
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: they're into right now. So they're exploring this physical space
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: where they, you know, where like the vat is and
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: all these other little jugs. Was there another area, you know,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: one other component to this? By the way, I know
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of jumping around, but that crematory that we
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: were talking about, they got nailed for, selling human body
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: parts to medical facilities to do research or whatever it was.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: We've had cases that you and I, I know, have
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: covered regarding the same thing. With that said, I think
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: that there could be a sexual element to it because people,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: if they can see a body being rendered bit by bit,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: it's another element to this psychosexual thing that goes on
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: in some people's... And this guy's a salesman. He's selling
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: things that seem like they come from the pit of hell,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: but he is a salesman. He is serving a group
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: of the population that wants to pay money for this stuff. And,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I don't know what these
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: communications are like. That's another part of the digital evidence
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: as well, Dave. You know, has anybody written in and
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: requested certain things from him?
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: And that's Again, now, you know, this investigation is going
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: to go on for years, but I want to go,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I want to go to something because we got to wrap,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: but you were mentioning wet cremation a minute ago and
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: I interrupted you, but talk to me about, no, I'm
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the one that interrupted you, not the, and I apologize,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: but what in the heck, cremation to me has always
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: been a body goes into an oven and is rendered
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: down to ash and that's it. And you, What is
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: wet cremation?
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: That's a chemical reaction. And what did I say earlier
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: about lye? Lye generates a tremendous amount of heat when
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: it becomes aqueous. So if you apply water, if you
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: apply water to dry lye, you better stand back. And
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: so that's, you know... there's a couple of ways to
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: look at it. You know, we've heard the term chemical
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: burns for years and years. I've actually gotten acid on
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: my skin before and it burned a little, little spot.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: It's like a little droplet and it burns. I mean, it, it, it,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: it's painful. Okay. So if you continue to apply lye
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and keep it aqueous, um, you do create heat. Like
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: if you could safely, I'm just saying, you know, because fire,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: we talk about fire in arson investigations, right? Fire itself,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: as we define fire, is an uninhibited chain reaction. Okay.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: So you got to have elements, you got to have heat,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: you got to have oxygen, you got to have fuel.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: So it's uninhibited, right? As long as none of those
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: things are disrupted, fire will go on, okay? Okay, well,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: you're generating heat from that. That's a product of this
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: uninhibited chain reaction. It's the same principle that is applied
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: to this so-called wet cremation. It's a curious term. I
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: kind of like it from a chemistry standpoint because you
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: are creating heat. So if you could stand back at
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: a safe distance, brother, You could actually extend your hands like,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: and you could feel radiating heat coming off of this.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: And dude, this is actually happening in this guy's basement.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: And there are the people that live around this place.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: All right. He's inhabiting the space with a son too. Now,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the son knows. I have no idea. Okay. But,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: you know, he's living in the space. I'm sure he's
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: being pressed on all sides right now because he's this
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: guy is the historian of record at this point. He's,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: he's one of these things along with all this other,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: these documents and everything that they're having to go through,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: you know, he can kind of take them on a
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: guided tour here. But, you know, from a legal standpoint, again,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: not my bailiwick, but I'm just saying if people want
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: to hold somebody criminally responsible, you can't, it's not like
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Oliver Cromwell where you can go dig him up and,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: you know, and, charge him after the fact, okay? This guy,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: this guy's dead. Who are you going to charge? And
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: how much energy, and I hate to say it this way,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: how much energy are prosecutors willing to expend on this?
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: You know, you and I, we have an interest in
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: the dead, okay? Prosecutors have an interest in prosecuting people, okay?
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: And you remove that element where unless they can tie
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: the sun back to it, it's in the news right now. Okay.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: And I think that there will be a lot to explore.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: I want to see how the prosecutors deal with this
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: in the future. Are they going to show it the
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: same reverence or maybe not reverence, but I don't know,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: passion that when they have somebody to point the finger
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: at and they say, we're going to put you on trial,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: how far are they willing to go with this? That's
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: why I think this thing is kind of spider webbed out.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: You got the sun And Dave, anybody that's consuming this stuff,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: anybody that's out there, anybody that's asking for specifics, they're
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: going to track them down. They're going to be asking
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: them questions. We'll see what happens. But I've got to
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: tell you, out of all the cases that Brother Dave
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: and I have covered, right now, forensically, this is one
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: of the most intriguing because there are so many unanswered
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: questions and we're kind of delving into a new area here.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: particularly as it applies to this sludge that's left behind.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I'm interested in seeing what the chemical analysis reveals. I'm
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bag.