Latest / The Daily Writer / Grow Your Network with the Power of Generosity with Vincent Pugliese

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Grow Your Network with the Power of Generosity with Vincent Pugliese · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyWriterLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the most challenging aspects of building a writing career, especially for introverted writers, is this idea of building connections.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: It requires a lot of emotional energy and a true love for connecting with others over a period of time.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yet it's one of the most important parts of the writing journey, especially if you want to create a business around your writing.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, our guest today is Mr.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Vincent Puglisi, and he's here to help us think more deeply about how to grow your network and build your relationships through the power of generosity.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Vincent is the founder of the amazing Total Life Freedom Community.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's host of the Total Life Freedom Podcast, as well as the author of Freelance to Freedom and his new book, which is called The Wealth of Connection: A New Approach to Making Business Personal.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Vincent has had a huge impact on my life the last couple of years.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me mention him a time or two.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Vincent has really helped me to think more like an entrepreneur, but more importantly, he's also helped me to think a lot more generously.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So in this conversation today, Vincent shares lots of strategies for connecting with other people in ways that are both fun and generous.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can have all the writing skills in the world, but if you aren't building your network, you probably won't have the readers or the people who are interested in your work to begin with.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So this conversation, in my opinion, is really, really critical.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So glad you're here.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're really going to enjoy what Vincent has to say about it.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get right to the conversation with my good friend, Vincent Puglisi.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we are here to talk about introverts and connections and networking and all this stuff.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, right before I record, I thought it was so funny, Vincent, because you you describe yourself as an introverted extrovert, or maybe it's extroverted introvert.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember which one.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I people have told me that and you you wrestle with it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, there's no way, even though I'm told this, I get exhausted from conversation.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So even writing a book like this about connection, um, I'm not the poster child.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy for me.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people think, well, well, that's easy for you.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're an extrovert for me.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an introvert, so I can't do a lot of these things.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's like it's a struggle.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I mentioned, like, you know, going to church with our family, and my wife Elizabeth is an extrovert.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't think I would have known these tendencies until I see her and she's on to the next person.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's she comes back, she's invigorated from it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: It exhausts me.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, like if it's not a me, I hate to say this, if it's not a meaningful conversation, meaning we're getting into something that matters, yes, I'm kind of just I'm kind of just like, I can't handle it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can't like small talk is not my thing.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I will, if it's meaningful small talk, I will kind of just eventually be like, I don't want to talk about the weather.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to talk about the same, and I'll kind of check out.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and I've been known to even go to my car and hide out and just relax and quiet sometimes.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And she's still in there talking.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, aren't we leaving yet?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm just done.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I think that's a sign that I'm not a true extrovert.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you think it is about?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe let me back up a second.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that I've always heard it defined being an introvert versus an extrovert is that introverts get our energy from being alone, whereas extroverts get their energy from being around people.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as I kind of look at my own my own energy level, which which gets depleted pretty fast around a crowd of people, and especially if I'm talking to them and whatnot, what is it about talking to people in conversations that depletes our energy?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I could really put my finger on that and figure out.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not the extra.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about that?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great question because it's it's absolutely true.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I when I could I could speak personally for myself, it drains me.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we do the live events, we do the retreats, there's some people that would be like, oh man, now they're just ready to go.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: When those events are over, I'm spent.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe it's because, and I'm not sure if this is just for me, but like when you're when you're an introvert in some ways and you're constantly looking for meaningful connection, when you have connection, those are more challenging conversations.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're not just how's the weather type of conversation.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you get into things, and when you finally do, by the end of it, it it might it just drains you.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm the same way, even with these calls.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have four calls today on Zoom, masterminds, or podcast interviews, and I can't get anything else done today.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: My brain is fried when it's all over.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: But there's some people, they're done with it and they're they're ready for the next one.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're ready to go.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a good idea.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever get to a place?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, go ahead.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that's maybe that's why it relates to so many writers in terms of why they get so much um energy from the quiet and the writing, because that's their escape from that.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's how they feel most comfortable.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever get to a place when when you feel your energy level really dipping where you've had a lot of calls, or maybe it's after a TLF event or something, where literally you have no more words, meaning you if when you try to have a conversation engage, like your speech actually gets a little bit slurred, or you you you can't speak at your normal speed.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have had that experience a lot of times.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the weirdest thing in the world.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know how how if um if you're using an um like some kind of a tool where it has a battery with it, and the battery is totally depleted, like it won't even go.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: That have you ever felt that way after an event or something where you are just so depleted, it's hard to even have a conversation.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not to that level.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not to that level, but but yeah, where the I don't know, it it's for me, it's like I can't get into anything.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, because it'll be somebody'll ask me a question or Elizabeth will ask me something, and I feel like not now.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can't go anywhere with this.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: My mind is like, yeah, not slurring speech, not not like drunk like yet, where it's like, okay, but where I'm I'm just I'm just spent.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I think that's one of the things I've you know, I'll I'll talk to a lot of introverts about this, and what they tell me is they shine, and I didn't know this, they shine in one-on-one conversations.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's why a lot of them enjoy podcasts.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's you and I talking, but they will also tell me, put me in a crowd, and I don't enjoy it at all.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I they don't enjoy the environment of multiple people, noise.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm noticing that too.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm having a conversation at an event and all this other noise, and I'm I can't even relate to you.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if we go into a room or go outside, we talk, man, I love that because now it's and I wonder if it's a personal connection thing.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's like you feel much more of a personal connection as an invert as an introvert, one-to-one, than you do schmoozing at a party, but an extrovert loves the schmoozing because they go back from one to the next to the next.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if that has something to do with that's why introverts retreat but do really well in in the one-to-one conversation.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I don't know.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I just find myself when I'm in those one-on-one, one-to-one conversations, I like to really, really engage.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I like to listen to the tone of voice, make eye contact, you know, because I I really value people in relationships, therefore I want to give as much as I can to it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm in a group, I feel like that energy is dissipated to where I'm only kind of really engaging with a little bit with each person.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but maybe that also goes back to I think a lot of introverts are analytical types.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So in whatever situation you're in as an analytical kind of a person, you're looking at everything, you're absorbing everything, you're noticing details.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just being in a room full of people sometimes depletes that emotional battery really fast because you're kind of noticing everything.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's too much to keep up with.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's yeah, it's just too much to absorb because you know, we're like sponges, you can only absorb so much of other people's energy emotionally.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I think also part of it is absorbing other people's energy where or we're kind of reflecting that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think if you are um if you're a person who pays attention to other people emotionally, you try to kind of match their energy level.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And but that's exhausting, it takes a lot of mental effort to do that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not a doubt.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Barry Carts, you know, member of TLF, he has a podcast called the Real Estate Unsales Person.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's an introvert.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the podcast essentially is saying how introverts do really well in real estate.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: As and and and I wouldn't have yeah, I wouldn't have thought of this before because I think our natural tendency is thinking, oh, well, it's got to be the extrovert because they're bouncing from house to house and you know they're selling this and they're selling this and and explaining this.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what they what he's learned with this is it's the introverted ones that do better and do really well because they're better listeners.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, kind of what you're talking about, they're picking up the nuance, they're picking up the body language, they can tell when shoulders shrug or eyes open, or they're thinking, and instead of talking over them, they know to back off and let them speak.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens is the clients feel like, oh, I'm being heard, I'm being cared about.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I trust this person.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think I want to work with them, as opposed to the salesman that comes in with the same lines and pushing you through and and really outgoing about what they're excited about.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the person's thinking, well, are they excited for me or are they excited for themselves?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the introvert realtors is honestly thinking about them and what they want, they're noticing the little nuances, and that's what makes them so good at what they do.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's the details, it's details of relationships and emotions and picking up on things, but also stuff like follow-up with people, sending notes, you know.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's probably a million things potentially.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So for any extroverts who are listening, you know, there's no hope.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm totally just kidding.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Totally just kidding.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But even the follow-up part of it makes and I never thought about this before.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're paying attention to specific new and you're not having as many conversations, it's probably easier to follow up and follow up meaningfully, as opposed to having so many people follow up, but that not much really sticks out.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that that might be another kind of subtle reason why it goes well, but they don't know why it goes well.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I will say, you know, one thing that I have always appreciated about extroverted people is you don't really want a room full of introverts because they then it's like totally quiet.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like we had a birthday party for my dad a couple weeks ago, his 75th birthday, but it was all like my side of the family, which are all introverts.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so we all kind of sat around on my my deck and we were it's like, well, I was the whole time I was thinking, man, I wish we had like a couple of really big extroverts here, like it would really help a lot.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really interesting because you know, I wrote about this.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It took me a while to figure this part out, but the curiosity part of connection, and what I think what introverts lack, the ones that don't do it that well, is a lack of curiosity.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because what they're what they're missing is if you have a whole bunch of people sitting around and nobody's talking, it means nobody's asking questions.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because all you really need, you don't really need an extrovert, in my opinion, in that spot.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: You need a curious person in that spot.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you have the interviewer, right, the person that's interested in other people, like so, Kent, you know, how do you break the silence?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: You don't break the silence by talking about yourself.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe you do, but maybe some people just want some type of conversation, but you break the silence by like, hey, you know, tell me about what you're working on, and then that's good.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: The introvert lights up because they go, Oh, somebody cares about me, and I don't have to work that hard because he's asking me the questions.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the a big challenge for introverts to work on is paying attention to their curiosity.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because what they don't realize is if they do that, they don't have to do much more.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: You just need to ask some questions, let other people shine, and then it gets the pressure off of yourself.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But and that's why I think as an as an extrovert, introvert, my curiosity really saves me a lot because I don't really want to talk about myself, I don't really want to tell my story over over and over again unless somebody's really interested.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: But by being curious, I could be in a conversation, I can ask questions.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: They can really love the conversation because they get to talk about themselves, which most people want to do.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't really have to work that hard.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to listen in and ask questions.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that role.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love, but I think a lot of times as as introverts, they'd realize, oh, if I just did a little more of that, it wouldn't be so uncomfortable for me.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually enjoy the conversations more than I do because it does, it wouldn't feel like work.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: It almost seems like curiosity is the most underrated superpower, you know, that a person can have.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because just that power of asking good questions of people really can get things rolling and it can obviously when you ask questions of the other people and you're curious about them and their work, it gets them feeling important and it makes them feel like somebody's listening.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just so many good things about it.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you think somebody can develop a curious spirit if they don't really have one already?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta figure out what other people are striving for.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it, I think that's not I think that's not used very much.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's I think so often it's like, wow, I'm uncomfortable with a conversation for introverts.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know how to, you know, everybody's worried about how they're gonna look or what they would say if they're asked a question.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: But really, to me, it's like, man, I really want to know what makes you tick.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I really want to know where you want to go.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you have that just genuine childlike curiosity about what other people are interested in, it makes it fun.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I get my extrovertedness from is from curiosity.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't like if you interview me and you want to ask my questions, sure, I'll answer them.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm on stage, I'll I'll tell my story.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: But man, what I really want to do is learn about other people.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't require me to talk a whole lot to do that because I'm telling you, all you gotta do, I'll give you an example.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke at this conference, I was a keynote, and I was the last speaker of the day, and I was there the whole time.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I went around.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: I and I asked, you know, I went to the different table.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you, you know, what are you struggling with?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: A bunch of entrepreneurs.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I had to ask.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I asked out half an hour later, like, oh, I gotta stop because the next speaker's going on.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: They all were so starved for other people asking them about themselves that when they had when somebody actually asked them a question and listened, they just took it and ran with it.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this went Kent all day long.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of the day, as I was getting ready for my keynote, I'm kind of like, Well, I didn't really talk about myself very much at all to any of these people.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody really knows.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm the keynote speaker, so I start doubting myself like, Am I even interesting?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because nobody really asked.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: A woman came up to me, she's like, You are the best keynote we've ever had.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even give my speech yet.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Really, why?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, You're the first one that actually sat down with all of us.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Usually a keynote comes in for their speech and then leaves, or if they are there during the day, they're just talking about themselves the whole time.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: You came in, you asked us.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we're all sitting here talking about how great it was to talk to you.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I went on stage, I got to actually point out some of them and it formed a connection.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it really, what does it require of me to ask questions and be interested?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I just find that so often I'll get into a conversation with somebody.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to judge, but I'm like half an hour later, I'm like, can you really just talk about yourself for 40 minutes and then not ask any questions?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that is a really not a great way of endearing yourself to others by just telling your story, but not being like bringing the other person involved in it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to really study that.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: That that's those are areas of life that I just want to keep getting better at.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you I don't necessarily want to go down this whole rabbit trail, but I'm I'm just practicing my curiosity here on this broadcast interview.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Something that I see a lot is I can tell a difference, or at least I think I can, when you go somewhere and you see a speaker and they have like a and it could be very great, a really well-prepared, well-rehearsed talk.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it but it seems kind of canned versus somebody who feels like they're just kind of getting up and they're sharing and you feel like you know them and they're just kind of being themselves.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the image that I've actually never seen you like speak at a conference.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've been, you know, I've I've been with you at a variety of retreats and things like that.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it seems to me like you would be the kind of speaker who is just relaxed and chill and bringing in stories from this person, that, and that person.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that at as as a problem in the speaking industry today where I've just had I've seen so many things that are that just seemed like really like overly rehearsed?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like TED Talks come across that way to me.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: No offense to TED Talks.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love a lot of the TED Talks, but it's like they're so scripted and so rehearsed down to the minute detail.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a struggle because even in the speaking world, like if you if people want to refer you and you've got a great keynote speech, they don't want you to add lib at their event, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to see this amazing presentation, and then you walk in like, let me just try new material on you for your audience.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and and I get that.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a struggle with it.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and my problem with it isn't the repeatableness of it, which I think I I used to have, like, oh, it's all gotta be fresh, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is, is it authentic?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is it authentic and is it pliable in terms of hey, bring in a different story, bring in a different anecdote, bring in a different like it can't be word for word.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've got to be able to adjust to the crowd, to your mood, to your moment.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, if I go on stage and I'm I'll give you an example.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I went to an event and there was a keynote speaker and it was a popular person, the speech was great.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was I was riveted, but then it was QA and it was like a different person.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was like the kind, thoughtful, caring, like well thought out keynote that I listened to, all of a sudden turned into a ruthless business person that wasn't the same.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, and I think a lot of us felt that way.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, you could tell how much they worked on that speech because they crafted it to be a certain way, but then when those five minutes in the QA, completely in my mind, different person, and I'm not it completely turned me off.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas, you know, what's nice, like I had you know, so many people read the new book, and then I've had so many people come up to be like, I like when I talk to you, that's what reading that book is like, and I'm like, that's exactly what I want, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so authenticity and integrity is a huge part for me because I don't mind the thing about you have to be really careful in terms of like, well, is it is it a curated speech over and over again that is impactful and it's is inauthentic, but if it's if it is similar, but it's you and you can continually make it better and continually do QA's that reflect on that and they're they're real to you, you know.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a very nuanced world.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy because I think your your point is spot on in terms of how we can lose that vibe because of it.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I struggle with the same thing, honestly, with writing, and I think there's a good analogy here between speaking and writing, because there are there are some writers that that I love who have a highly polished style.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I try to make my writing that's published really polished if I can.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I go over it and over it and over it to make sure it sings as much as I can.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: But then I read somebody like um, for example, James Patterson has a new uh in fact, I have it right here.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in the middle of it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: He has an autobiography out and it's it reads now.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is kind of his uh I know this is kind of his style, but it reads like transcripts of him just talking.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I find that I actually really like that.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not polished, and he's he's not known as a like a polished, you know, prose writer.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I find I really resonate with that, and I really like the stuff that's kind of not polished.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like it feels like it you're reading somebody's email.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's very personable.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you what really resonates with you in terms of writing style, or do you think there's a place for both of those things?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a place for I mean, that's the that's the beautiful thing about style, is you gotta you gotta create it personally towards yourself.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can only if I find something like that, I'm reading it and I've heard the person and it doesn't sound like them, I'm completely out.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I can tell either you've had so much work done with this that it's not really you, and now it's not useful, because I'm very much of the personal interaction.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if if it doesn't relate, if your voice doesn't resonate the way your voice is, I can't, I'm starting to not trust it.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I've even seen some reviews in that, like people go, Well, they didn't really do this, so I and and so it's it's a really hard thing, but for me, I love just an authentic voice.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you an example, like not to use Gary Vanderchuk as an example too of because people talk about him all the time now.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I went to an event where he was to give a keynote with Seth Godin and Dave Ramsey, and he went up there and you know, he's about to get the keynote, and he said, You know what?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, We had so many questions beforehand.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm throwing the keynote out.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can we bring a couple of microphones up and just ask me questions?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was the coolest thing because obviously he was prepared for the keynote, and on the dime, he said, let's and it was an hour QA that was that was amazing.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me say, You've got, but but if you structured your keynote or you're writing so much that it has to be a certain way, I think you get very rigid in that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've got to be able to say, No, I want to write about something different, I want to be able to speak about something different.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's but it's a hard thing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's obviously built up enough trust with whoever organ was a Dave Ramsey organized event.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: For him to be able to do that and then not get mad at him.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Cause they pay them, I'm sure, a certain a good amount of money.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they could be like, well, we didn't pay you to do a QA.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I love the the working without a net type of feel of like, hey, what are you writing about?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is this authentically your voice?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are you can you switch it around?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's a challenge for when you're building your writing voice or your speaking voice in terms of how are you authentically gonna be you when you do it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a that's also a challenge.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, as you know, I'm a ghostwriter.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of I'm a ghostwriter by day, like Batman by night.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not really.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I was.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: But with ghostwriting, that there's there's a fine line that you have to keep in mind between a client's voice, you know, the way that they communicate, but then there's also kind of like a standard way of writing a nonfiction book for the most part, where I think sometimes the voice aspect can be a little bit overrated because sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between the voice, quote unquote, in one nonfiction business book versus this one versus this one versus this one.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's kind of like a general accepted style or a voice that you write in with a nonfiction business-y kind of a book.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd I find that's that's kind of a challenge to to balance between those things because you want to have a voice, but you don't want to have too weird of a voice.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do love a voice, or it doesn't read well.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I the problem with that is I think we've gone to such a standard of here's the outline, here's the way it goes.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm bored with business books.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest with you, like so in in so many ways, because I just know the formula.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna tell a story, but they're gonna slightly tell the story.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be a little bit about it to like it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, get like I think so many of these books miss so much nuance.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: They miss diving deep into the details, going into a story where while that was unexpected.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I know you're gonna tell me kind of a story, but you you're only doing that because you know stories sell.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're gonna go into here are the lessons and here are the seven steps and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I what I want is to go back to all those times where you're starting to tell the story, and I want to press a button and make you go longer on that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's such a standard practice that it's expected to just dip your toe in the water, get enough of the story out there so you say you did that, but not really learn how to tell a story.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think across the board so often as I'm reading, I'm kind of like, all right, like I just need more from that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I think there's a huge opportunity for writers to be able to say, no, I'm not gonna just do that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna dive in more.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm gonna like with my book, I didn't do an outline because I didn't know.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I had an idea of it, but I needed to write the book to know what it was gonna be.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if I outline, I know you can always adjust, but uh, but the a high compliment I get is how different it is than so many of the standards, but that's because I didn't go by the standard.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think we probably need more writers that are willing to do that.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it all just really depends on on the project and the book and the goals, and there's so many factors at play there.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I did want to show you this.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I got this book a couple days ago.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in fact, you might like this.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You're a you're a big music person.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know who Quincy Jones is, obviously.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um he just came out with this book, 12 Notes on Life and Creativity.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, he did not actually write this.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a person who worked for him actually wrote this.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I had to do some digging to find that out, by the way.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew, okay, it's Quincy Jones, he's like the biggest music producer in the world, you know, or at least he was at one time.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm sure that he did not sit down and actually write this, but it's it's all his stories and stuff.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: What I thought was interesting though is that it's pretty short.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like 170 pages and it's 12 short chapters.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, bam, I love it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's short, it's stories mostly.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, man, that in my mind is a great business book.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's short to the point stories are stories are basically the whole book.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So was it impactful?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there is room for rethinking the formula.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, was it did you get the lessons that he was trying to share?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, totally, totally.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it didn't go by the same formula that we see we're seeing in it.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what I'm saying.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much room for that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people are afraid to go there because that they give me the standard practice.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's the good length of a book?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: When should the book come out?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: What it's like find your if you want to stand out, find who you are in terms of what you're writing about and do it in your style and your your way.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, a great example is um Derek Sivers, the book Anything You Want is a perfect example.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I read anything you want, and that literally gave me a green light to write the way that I wanted to do.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: That was one of the books that gave me a green light to be like, he didn't do it the way everybody else did it.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: He did it his way.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell he was basically like, I know what I'm talking about, I'm gonna write the way that I want to write.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoy this process.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It it there would be so many people that would critique it.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have this, it doesn't have that, but it was impactful.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I remember more from that book than I remember from most business books.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if you so the idea of writing it unconventionally, you know, he did it that way and made impact with it, just like you're saying the Quincy Jones booked.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think hopefully that can be something that can spur people to be like, I don't have to do the cookie cutter format to have a business book because I think you it kind of all starts blending together after a while.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what was funny is so I actually came across this Quincy Jones book at Barnes and Noble.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I went up there just to get something else, I think, and I was browsing around and saw it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what was interesting is that if this book would have been 300 pages, I wouldn't have bought it.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: If it would have been 250 pages, I probably wouldn't have bought it.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I looked at it, I was like, can I read this in like two days, maybe one day?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me just grab it and I can read it over the weekend or whatever.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we're entering a really important time where I think we could argue for the value of little short books more than ever before.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah because people actually read them.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, with Wealth of Connection, I kind of I went back and forth on it because I'm like, especially afterwards, it's like the biggest challenge I have in terms of the connection of people reading it are people like, oh, I haven't finished it yet.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, but I haven't finished yet.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, snarky, snarkily, I'm like, it's three hours, right?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna read a book, it doesn't, it's is it really that long to like I have no problem giving up three hours for a book that you know if you're gonna read it out loud, whatever two and whatever it is.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: But yours get to pass because it's it's all stories, yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: But still, people attention spans are shorter now than ever, yeah, right.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like we talked on the TLF call about the short books, it's like would that have been better in in five short books that you you breeze through, then you go to the next one?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so I think you're absolutely right.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much potential for that, and I think it will get people out of their writer's block or whatever you want to call it, or their fear, because it doesn't have to be that long to go.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, you could do different compilations of it, you can write the big book that could lead into small ones, but I think I think we're seeing an age where it's not looked down upon like it must have at some point.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know if you agree.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, totally agree, totally agree.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Seth Godin was in my mind, he was really instrumental in giving people permission to do short books because my favorite book of his is still Tribes.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like a small book, 13, 14 years old.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a little short book, but I like it because you can get through it fast.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's a good book, but I think it would have lost impact if it would have been 250 pages.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's something for writers to really think about.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, you can just, I mean, just economically, you can port out, you can put out more books that way.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of interesting reasons to do little short books.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: But in your case, I think I think the length of the wealth of connection was was the right choice because that represents a book that you're going to then be promoting, you know, uh every chance that you get for the next several years.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, go ahead.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh so I think if if you have like kind of one central message and you are comfortable and willing to talk about that one singular message, you know, ad nauseum, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but if if you if you want to talk about just that one thing, then pour all your energy into that one thing like you've done and promote the heck out of that thing.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much possibility to come from because I talk about the hour of giving in the wealth of connection.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: If there's anything that I I keep getting emails about, it's that.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm working on a parable.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: That would be the hour of giving would be, you know, it's almost Star Wars, right?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're bringing different pieces out, like prequels that you're gonna go back.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I can see, you know, a 120-page book on that or on different aspects of it, or like you and I talked about bringing out the curiosity part of it, making a book simply on that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the wealth of connection is the cornerstone book, you know, quote unquote, in the franchise, to use a bigger word than it is.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if if that's the cornerstone book, but we have all these other things that build around it, like, oh, I can get that one, I can read that one quicker.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I want to read the bigger, it'd probably give more credibility to the bigger book to have other other pieces come off of it.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it allows you to keep writing on the topic because we're still we're always learning.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Once we write the book, it doesn't mean we're the expert on it.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like we got to keep learning about this.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's very exciting because it it means that the book process isn't done.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean you have to write another full-length book.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can write pieces around it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, don't you think at the end of the day, I remember are you familiar with Rick Warren, pastor of saddleback?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember, gosh, this has been in a pastor's conference years and years ago.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was talking about how all of us, and this was in the context of church ministry, but I think it's true of of everybody.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: He said, all of us only really have like two or three things to say.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: We only have a very small number of things that truly we are passionate about.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we spend our lives figuring out different ways to say those two or three major things.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's true of writers.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you look at somebody like John Maxwell, who's written uh, or well, I should say his name is on, you know, well over a hundred books.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't actually write them anymore.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he has he's had a writer for a long time.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it's but it's his content and his outline.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it really he says the same kinds of things over and over and over again.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if you like John Maxwell and you resonate with his stuff, you love it because it's just a different way of getting the same message.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I really like that.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And exactly.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing is I think as we have to think as readers, I think about how often I'll read, say, the compound effect by Darren Harding.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll read that every year.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So many books I'll read over and over again.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading The Choice again by Ogmandino.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And every single time I read it, something different hits me that didn't hit me before based on the stage of life that I'm in.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I read The Choice the first time, my first book for this freedom was being published, and we were about to go to Arizona for a three-month on a road trip.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was part of the cross-country trip we've gone on.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you read this book, and this author, you know, publishes his first book because that's the story within it.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then they, you know, it gets so crazy that they leave for Arizona for a trip.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it resonated, like, oh my goodness, I'm kind of in the spot that he was in there, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm seeing it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: But now when I read it years later, and his kids are 12 and 7 in the book, and I go, Oh my god, my kids are 16, wow, 14, and 11.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what he dealt with in his career and being a parent hit me so much more this time than it did then, because my kids were a lot younger.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So with the the books that we write, even in different forms of small books, same like John Maxwell leadership, but in different forms, they're gonna hit different people in different ways at different times.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they're still incredibly impactful, even though you think you might be repeating the same thing over and over again.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that's totally true.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, my my favorite all-time nonfiction book is a little tiny book by Henry Nowen, who was a Catholic priest.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: He died in the 1990s.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: He wrote a book called In the Name of Jesus.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a book about leadership for priests, actually, but it's his stuff has become incredibly popular over the past few decades among evangelical pastors.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Christian leaders of all different kinds.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that book impacts me differently now that I'm 48 than it or that I'm gonna be 48 in about three weeks, than it does when I was 26.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, because I just look at things differently.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So and I think that's true of a good book, is that it's almost like a prism where you're reading the book, but the book is kind of also reading you at the same time.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Without without a actually, I don't know if that makes any sense, but it sounded good when I said it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, but like, but I get it because when you're writing when you say reading you, I'm seeing it as like the author's understanding where the person's coming from that they're talking to.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I I agree.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I it sounds kind of hokey, but I think there's a relationship there as I'm reading it, especially the time of your life.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel like a connection.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: If I can, and that's what we talked about way earlier in terms of the writing style.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you get a connection with your reader, like I feel like there's something that I feel like it's a it's a back and forth thing.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I'm being talked to.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you can write that way, you can connect with your audience in a way different than if it was just more standard.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, completely.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I agree with that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, what if you had to pick, what would you say is your all-time favorite nonfiction book?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or one that has impacting you more than maybe any other?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a hard question.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not it's always impossible to pick just one, I realize, but but if you could say, or maybe one of your top three or four, it's one of the things, right?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: You go to your bookshelf and and you tell me, like, okay, eliminate 20 books, and I limit, and then you close out okay, eliminate 20 more.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how you kind of feel like I'd have to do that practice.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: We should probably do a another interview, like another addition to this where I go through my book, like, what's the one book that I wouldn't want to lose?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's one book.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, Ken, I'm not sure.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I you know, a book that really I'm gonna I'm gonna say this, and I'm not sure it's accurate, it's it's on the moment, but Lynchpin by Seth Godin, and I haven't read it recently, but that's the book that got me to think like an entrepreneur.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's the one that did it because I read it probably about 2013, and we had built our business, but we had built kind of a solo business.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'd done it for a few years, but it was the one that got me to push, I was already an entrepreneur, but it got me to see it way differently.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the life that we live now is I would say is directly related to how I felt and the notes that I took when I read that book.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I keep going back to that.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that's the accurate answer, but in this moment, I'm like, I can't.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: So many books have had impact.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't want to downplay, but that for some reason I go to there and I go, my mind shifted in terms of entrepreneurship and lifestyle and how we wanted to build something and how we'd help people with that book.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna go with that.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting, interesting.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people wouldn't name Seth Godin books.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I named one a few minutes ago, yeah.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: One that has really been impactful for me.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it what is it about Seth Godin that people resonate with so much?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really good question because I think a lot of times it could be well, I think people get kind of tired of a similar name.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, that's just a cliche thing to say, Seth Godin.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cliche thing.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think he's probably one of the most thoughtful and most thought-provoking writers in this space.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why he makes me think, even the way we were coming up with the subhead for the wealth of connection, I wanted it to be a question, which we didn't quite pull off.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for a moment it was, but it didn't wind up being a question.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I I remember I look back at Lynchpin, and the sub and the subtitle for Lynchpin was Are You Indispensable?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how often do you hear a question as a as a as a subhead?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you you rarely hear it's always those three things, right?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: How to make more money, get more success, and live a life.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's the right game, right?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: But his was Are You Indispensable?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, that's why I think his books are impact, impactful, because they're curious, right?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Going to what I'm interested in, but they I I leave there always I leave his books always thinking and thinking of how to improve as opposed to feeling like I was taught.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not like he's telling you what the answer is, he's making you think and you need to decide.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that part of it, as opposed to let me show you why I'm the I'm the expert in this thing and listen to what I've come up with.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: He's asking questions.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I mean it comes back to it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's the curiosity in the way that he writes, even leading with a question, which nobody else does.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I think so too.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and if you listen to him talk or do podcast interviews or anything, he's a very curious person and he's very humble.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like he never comes across as I'm some big time author guy.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: He just seems like I'm an everyday dude who is just kind of curious, and I'm writing books and asking questions, and you know, oh, I I happen to be this wildly successful author.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but but he never comes across that way.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really have appreciated that about him.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you Dane Sanders is a friend of mine.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: He he has a great books, he's a photographer, and but now he's in the personal development space last decade, and he's doing really well.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I had dinner with him in in lunch with him in California years back, and we were talking about this, and so he'd he'd become friends with Seth.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Seth had talked about him in his platform many times, wrote about him, and so he went out to New York and and visited Seth for a couple days out, you know, went to his went to his office and drove around with him.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and Dane's, you know, very successful, but he put Seth up on this pedestal, so he kind of was nervous.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and he got in the car and he said to him, He's like, you know, you know what, Seth, like I am taking you down off the pedestal.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I am not gonna do this.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And Seth said it's about time because we're both doing the same thing, we're both writers trying to figure this out.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that, and I love that because I'm starting to deal with that a little bit, right?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: People listen to the podcast, they read the book, and all of a sudden I talk to them and they have this like, Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm talking to you.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, Stop.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Stop doing that.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm an idiot just like everybody else.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I if you saw me in day-to-day activity, you would not put me on a pedestal.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: But we do that because we see one thing that they do really well, and we make them the idol.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: But everybody's got their flaws, everybody's got their insecurities.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when we put them up there, it's a disservice to the relationship because it can't be something where we can teach each other and learn from each other.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're always looking up to this person.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when Sad said that, good, take me down from there.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're we're both the same writers trying to figure stuff out.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that made Dane realize, wait a second, I'm more maybe I don't have 19 best-selling books, but I'm more, you know, on the same level as a human than I realize because we make them more important than they probably even want to be made, unless they just have a giant ego.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: And those aren't usually the people you want to, you know, idolize anyway.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think to be able to say, like, hey, we're all just trying to figure this out is is a huge way of going about it.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you think that's a commonality of really highly successful people?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: For the most part, like when I read James Patterson's autobiography, I mean, he's he's the best-selling author in the world, you know, in history.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's interesting as I read his his book, he's very self-deprecating.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he very much comes across like, I'm a guy just trying to figure this out.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm not like the world's greatest prose writer, I'm just sort of here trying to do my thing.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting because I'm like, dude, you're there's nobody more successful than you in the writing world ever.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but he's just is kind of like, I'm here doing my thing.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe, maybe there's an element to this where in order to be more successful, we just kind of have to let go of that and just commit to doing the work and do our thing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, as I study it, I'm kind of like, are they doing it for the success?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are they doing it for the ego for the backslap?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is that why they're doing it?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: What I notice is there's kind of two directions you can go.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: As you get more notoriety, your ego gets bigger, you become more inclusive, you become more secluded and protective of your success, or you go this other way, which is kind of a little more humble and more generous.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember, you know, my brother is a lighting tech on Broadway, and they did a show, they had Spider-Man, and and you too was on the show, and they got to spend some time.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like Bono was there.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one of the conversations around that was the idea of like it was an interview that happened.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think my I don't know if he was lighting the, you know, did light on the on the interview.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was somewhere around there, and they asked Bono, like, is it is it hard with your ego as you become more successful?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, It's almost the opposite.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, the more successful he gets, the more he has to kind of give give more.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: He has to have less of an ego, the bigger he gets.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I've never talked to him about it, so I don't know, but I would imagine I think that's really important as you're growing, it becomes less about you and more about just kind of a generous, we're putting this out there because we've all seen the celebrities that crash from being too big and too ego driven.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think of you know, I think of people like Bob Berg and like Seth Godin, people like that that seem to be more helpful as they become more successful.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the path to strive for.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we need people like that to kind of blaze the path, not put them on pedestals, but like I To know how the person that's been doing it for 40 years handles it, not the one that got success in the last two years.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's who I stuck.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: I say, what are the people like after they've got there?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: What do they like after they've got everything we all desire?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: How do they act then?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I try to model from.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I know, at least with James Patterson, it seems like he is really just engaged in the work.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: He just really, really loves the work.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that that seems to be a commonality among people who stick with it for a long time.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: They you almost have to divorce yourself from the results of your success or from the outcomes, and you just have to commit to I'm just gonna show up for a few decades and I'm gonna do this thing every day and try to make a difference.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Which generally doesn't have that, like you said, divorce from the outcomes, it's not about the success.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure it's nice, but I'm sure there's also a fear of like, I don't want the success to destroy the work that I want to do.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like the whole thing of management debt, which is like, you know, you start a business and you love the business that you do, but then you're gonna hire a whole team around you to do all the stuff, and now you have a whole team, and now you're spending all your time in meetings, and now you're like in this management debt.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I never set out to be in meetings all day, but I became I became so successful that now I'm in all these meetings, and I really just want to shut all this down and write again.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or I want to just do whatever the work is that I do, and sometimes success can destroy that because now we have such big growth around us that we don't actually do the work that we want to be doing.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very concerned about that.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: As I want to do the work that I love doing that has impact that it's not about how big it gets.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can we can fight that a lot because, like, well, you can go, you can get huge for what reason?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the whole Mexican fisherman story.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I always come back to that.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about that, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what do you have what you need?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I look around, I go, I'm pretty blessed in this life.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is it about more or is it about impacting the work that you do?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And which we haven't even touched on, but you and I have talked about many times, your family, the people in your life.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are they getting the short end of the stick because you're so driven by your career?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: I that scares me more than anything is becoming successful in the wrong thing.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, going all out and having other people in my industry admire me, but my kids be like he wasn't around.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like that will wake me up in the middle of the night in fear if if I did that.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've seen, and obviously I'm not gonna share any names, but I've seen enough sort of entrepreneur types in our kind of generally in our space, you know, the last five or six years just just kind of have train wrecks in their personal lives.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, and I'm not judging that at all, but on it's kind of like a warning sign a little bit to the rest of us, like, you know, um, you can very easily become so so obsessed or enamored with kind of building your business or your success or your career that, you know, all of us are capable of that.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I'm looking looking at that and judging, I'm like, you know, there before the grace of God go I, you know, totally kind of a deal.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: All of us can we could spend 24-7 engaged in in all this stuff.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: It should be a warning because I've seen personally the most humble people driven, you know, bootstrapping type of people gain great success and not be that person.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not not even like they want to be that way anymore, but a completely different person because the success got to them, because the adjuration, you know, adulation got to them, because the praise got to them.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's we have to pay attention to that.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: We absolutely have to.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's a good ongoing conversation to have, particularly in the in the writing space where so much emphasis is put on having your name out there and having bestsellers.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we all know the bestseller lists are there's a lot of there's a lot of funny business that goes on in that whole realm.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's a whole nother topic for discussion, but yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Vincent, this has been a blast.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I can always talk to you for hours on end, honestly, because you're so thought-provoking and so wise, and you just have really, really great things to say.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate making time to have this conversation today.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Have me anytime.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I always love this as well.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you having me on.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have links to your book and podcast and website and all that fun stuff in the show notes.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Vince and I.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely loved it.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I took a ton of notes during that conversation, so I can go back and reference all the wisdom that he had to share.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: If I had to pick one takeaway from this interview, I would say it's this.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: What you're doing as a writer is not about you.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's really about other people.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: So find a way to do something every day to show that generosity.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Find a way every day to demonstrate that generosity to other people.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Connect with people, check in on them, leave book reviews, leave podcast reviews, send books to people, send handwritten cards.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a million ways you can do this, but do at least one thing every day to show your generosity.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I promise you it'll make a massive difference.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to give a giant shout out and thanks to Vincent for taking the time to be a guest on today's episode.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And to everybody who's listening, make sure and visit his site, totalifefreedom.com.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is a great community of entrepreneurs.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've been a part of it for a long time.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also a member of his Elite Mastermind, which is very, very good.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: I also strongly encourage you to grab his book, The Wealth of Connection.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very good.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's cool because he even talks about me in one of the chapters, which I thought was pretty cool.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so honored to be um for him to feature me in the book.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that was very, very kind and I loved it.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: So check it out.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I promise it'll make a difference in your writing and in your business.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right, friends, thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.