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Your Life Can Get Bigger After 60—If You Let It · The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wisdom Trust.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm Lauren Crawford.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for gay men over 50 who sense there's more to this stage of life than we've been taught.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: More connection, meaning, honesty, and possibility.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Each episode is a conversation with a thoughtful gay man who's navigating the deeper questions that often emerge in the second half of life.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Aging, identity, purpose, belonging, reinvention, community, love, and living consciously.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: These are not conversations about decline, they are conversations about becoming.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you're here.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode issue of the Wisdom Trust podcast.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: I have Jack Kohler with me today, and I will be introducing him in just a moment.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Before I do that, a reminder that we are here as men over 50 who are of the gay persuasion and celebrating our lives, telling our stories, sharing with people some of the stuff that we've been through.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Some of us in this stage of life can get a little bit stuck, feeling a little bit uncertain about what the next steps are going to be.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: These conversations are to enlighten, inspire, and maybe even transform on some level.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: So let me tell you a little bit about our friend.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: So Jack is an elementary school teacher teaching STEAM to students in grades K to 6 in the Philadelphia public school system.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: In his free time, he enjoys connecting with people through art and music.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: And fitness is a big part of his life.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: For the last five years, he's been navigating life as a single gay male in his late 50s and early 60s.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Jack.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: And before I get you to tell us a little bit more about you and who you are, aside from everything I just shared, tell us what STEAM is, just for those of us who don't know.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: And hi, and thank you for having me, Lauren.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: So STEAM is an acronym for science, technology, engineering, art, and math.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Used to be just STEM without the A.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people are more familiar with that.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Science, technology, engineering, mathematics.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: So basically, it's kind of like a science enrichment type course.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: We do a lot of engineering, building with Legos, little engineering challenges.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thrilled that they added the A because I love art.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's really fun to be able to throw art into the mix as well.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, great.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: So creating little creative artistic minds early on.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Great.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so tell us more about you.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: I am the youngest of six.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: I have five older sisters.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: So I was raised in a household full of women, which was, I think, lovely in a way.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, I hear a lot of men talk about how they did not have permission to ever to show emotion as kids, as boys and stuff.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was in a house where I was just awfully encouraged.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: So I feel really grateful for that.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: I've always loved creativity.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of a jack of all trades, I guess, when it comes to creativity.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm a little good at a lot of things.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: I just like playing and trying all kinds of different things.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: Always have loved making music, and it's one of the ways I really enjoy connecting with people is through music, through creativity.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: And as you said, really enjoy movement and taking care of my body has always been important to me, and I think even more important the last five years or so, and especially as I age, and just trying to keep active and moving as long as I possibly can and remaining really fascinated about the aging process.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: It's something I've been become really, really curious about and really kind of enjoy seeing how my body is changing, even though it's a little scary at times.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: It's also fascinating to me.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I I'm enjoying the aging process too.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: And the thing about working out that I find fascinating, you know, I'm 60.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm stronger now at the gym, like with the weights and everything.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to be some power builder, but just in terms of the the volume of weight that I can work with now.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I thought this was the time when our muscles were supposed to be decry declining and decreasing and atrophying and all that stuff.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm totally with you.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me a little bit about or tell us a little bit about the music and that creative side?
4:22
SPEAKER_00: What sort of music are you interested in?
4:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, I've always have loved music and particularly making music, even more than listening to music.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: So I took piano lessons as a kid.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: I was my school's worst clarinetist.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I always loved playing music, but I was never disciplined in music.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: I was not a practicer.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: So, kind of more recently, maybe eight or 10 years ago, I was introduced to the ukulele and fell in love because it was an instrument really accessible.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: And I felt like within a matter of hours I was playing songs.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: So it really encouraged me to keep going and it didn't feel like practice because it was just so easy to keep picking up new skills and new chords.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like, okay, now I found my instrument because it allows me to be musical and without having to sit hours and hours and hours like playing scales.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I love it is it really connects people, like so many it because it's so accessible.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: There's a pretty large community out there now that plays the ukulele.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: So I found a meetup group that I was meeting with once a week.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's just blossomed into a lot of social opportunities.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I have a group now that of about we're probably about 13 of us now that get together every Christmas.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: I bake a bunch of gingerbread men and they come over and we decorate gingerbread cookies and then play our ukuleles and sing holiday songs.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: So just a way, another way that I can do something that I love doing and be creative, but also allows me to connect with people in a meaningful way.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: I the ukulele, even the word brings joy.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Like just saying that word ukulele, it's like it's a joyful word, but hearing the ukulele is a joyful experience.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: So I can only imagine what those gingerbread Carol sessions are like.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: That would be brilliant.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Any chance you have your ukulele nearby?
6:20
SPEAKER_00: I do.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is somewhat nearby.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Why don't you grab it?
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, sure.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: So you've got you've got your ukulele.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Can you hold it up to the camera so we can see?
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So this is called a tenor ukulele.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: So most the ukuleles most people are familiar with are soprano ukuleles, which look exactly like this, but a little bit smaller.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: So the tenor ukulele has a little bit more size to it.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit deeper sound.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm a bigger kind of guy, so we're kind of like you know, holding a ukulele that's a little bit bigger.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's what this one is.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: Can you give us a little joyful tune?
6:54
SPEAKER_01: I can.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: Let's see, what can I play for you?
7:03
SPEAKER_01: So, can I sing a little bit?
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes, please.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: Actually, can I do I'm gonna go to a totally different song if that's all right?
7:10
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: We might have to Okay, so once a year in May, there's something called the ukulele harmonic convergence that brings about a hundred ukulele players all into one space, and we're all singing and strumming the same music together.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: So there's about six different song leaders each year, and I've been fortunate enough that they've asked me to come back and be a song leader for about six years in a row now.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: So that means I have about a half an hour to do my set.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: I turned in my music early in like January, and then the people who organize this make a songbook out of mine, and the other song leader's music.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: So what happens about I'm on stage, I'm playing and I'm singing, but I'm not performing, I'm leading everybody else who is also the whole audience also has their ukuleles when they're playing and singing along.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: So again, it's about a hundred of us there.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: So this is the song that I'm gonna be opening with this year that we're gonna all be singing together.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think you might recognize it a little bit.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And don't judge my singing voice.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of enthusiasm about singing.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: All right, so this is um, you might recognize this, it's an Olivia Newton-John song.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: Wherever you go, whenever you may wander in your life, surely you know.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: I always wanna be there, holding your hand, and standing by to catch you and you form, seeing you through in everything you do.
8:50
unknown: Let me be there in your morning, let me be there in your night.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: Let me change whatever's wrong and make it right.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Let me take you through that wonder and only to him share.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: All I ask you is let me be there.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Imagine in a room with a hundred people all singing and harmonizing and playing their own ukuleles.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of fun.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there's someone who's been, you know, facilitation has been part of my life, you know, as an adult.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: That's what I've done.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: I can imagine facilitating a group of ukulele players would be absolutely hilarious and fun.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: It always makes me, I feel like every year I like tear up a little bit when you hear the people singing and then they start harmonizing, and it just, I don't know, a bunch of voices coming together to make music is just a moving thing.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: It is a moving thing.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I look at that too from a spiritual tradition and and why a spiritual perspective and why so many of the traditions have song and singing and voice as part of them is because that resonance just hits us at such a deeper level.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And when you have instrumentation and joyful energy, oh my gosh, it's so healing and soothing and uplifting.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: So good for you for doing that.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: So anything else you want to share about yourself after that little tangent of joyful music?
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I shared plenty with that.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: It took me off guard.
10:34
unknown: Yeah.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: So, what have the last years of your life been like?
10:37
SPEAKER_00: The last few years?
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been there, it's been a big, big, big change, I would say.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: So about five years ago, my marriage dissolved and a bit unexpectedly.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, there had been problems.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want it to end.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't really expecting, I certainly wasn't expecting it to end literally on that day in that moment.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was a big, big change from that point on.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And this last five years has been the first time in my life.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'll turn 62 next week.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: It's been really the first time in my life that I've ever lived alone for more than maybe a number of, I think once there was a five or six month period.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that it was a big change.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: It was something I was absolutely terrified of.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I had to I I had to make a lot of changes real quick and figure things out, and you know, did and I'm glad I did.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's an ongoing process, of course.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm happy to tell you as as much about that as you'd like.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, is is this the big pivot then?
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Is this your your your big sort of this stage of life pivot?
11:50
SPEAKER_01: That was my big pivot 100%.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Let's look at that from this season's all about wellness and well-being.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: So you went from uh a marriage which was lengthy and you didn't expect it to end quite so soon, it sounded like so.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: How did you go into this new iteration of yourself from a wellness perspective?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Like what were you able to discover about yourself?
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I was kind of fortunate in that I had laid a lot of the groundwork in advance.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: I've always been kind of not kind of very interested in you know learning and growth.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: And so had already been doing a lot of reading and meditation.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, because my marriage at the end was struggling, I I think also I had kind of you know upped the ante a little bit and taken care of myself.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And so when the time came, I wasn't starting from scratch, but it also was sort of like, oh, okay, like this is kind of that moment now where I take these things and I really put them to the test.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Like think it's time to walk the walk and really see like if the tools in my toolbox are enough.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: And if not, you know, how do I find new tools and what other tools do I need?
13:08
SPEAKER_01: And how do I refine the tools that I already have to help me get through this?
13:12
SPEAKER_01: So I would say a lot of it for me was taking things I was already doing and just getting a little more serious and a little more dedicated with them.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the beauty sometimes of when life throws a curve like that at you, is you really have no choice.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, I always say those moments I feel like are the moments that, you know, maybe we're making growth, making growth, making growth, but then we have one of these difficult moments, and I feel like it kind of slingshots us forward because you really have no choice but to buckle down and do the work.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if you want to get through it and I didn't want to get through it, I wanted to thrive.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: And so I just kind of set my mind to it.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: So things like running and exercise, you know, I had always been a part of my life, but you know, I was a little, a little bit like this with it.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: And I would say, you know, within the confines of a relationship, it was very easy to be complacent.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: It didn't matter so much to me if I put on some extra pounds or, you know, let myself go in other ways because, you know, he felt I felt secure and like, you know, it just didn't feel as important that I looked my best at every moment.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: And then suddenly I just felt like that was sort of one of the things that was saving my life, you know, and and I would have people kind of say, like, sometimes they'd say, you know, you can skip the gym one day, or you cannot go for your run one day.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: And I would say, like, at a time when I feel like everything is out of control, this is something I can control still.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it just was really important to me to be making sure that I was not missing.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, certainly taking lots of rest.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean I was constantly in the gym or constantly running and wearing myself out.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: I was taking rest.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: The difference I would say is I wasn't skipping a scheduled day.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying they're a scheduled day.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean I didn't have a day of rest, but the days that were supposed to be my exercise days, whereas before I might make an excuse, now I kind of was saying no excuse.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really important because when you're going through a change, change is dysregulation, right?
15:19
SPEAKER_00: So we need to regulate.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is where our society is kind of messy because most of our nervous systems are so dysregulated.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, which it sounds like a blanket statement, but it's pretty true.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: So, how do we how can we re-regulate?
15:33
SPEAKER_00: And and part of it is that discipline that you're talking about.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And some people don't understand discipline, right?
15:38
SPEAKER_00: And discipline is not a negative thing, it's not a punitive thing.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: It is actually a gift, right?
15:42
SPEAKER_00: And and it's about honoring and boundaries and all of these things.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: So kudos to you.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: So you you were doing that, you had the discipline and the rigor to stick with it, re-regulating yourself as you're going through this transition.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned running in the gym as tools.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Clearly, the music is a tool.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: I love the toolbox analogy because I think we need to, in this stage in our life, sometimes the tools that got us through our 30s, 40s, and 50s, they're not necessarily the same tools we need into our 60s and and forward.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: So, what other tools might have changed for you?
16:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would say like maybe rather than changed again, just kind of doubling down on just learning, educating myself as much like maybe learning is the wrong word.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should say soaking up the wisdom of other people that had things to say that were helpful to me, advice that was helpful to me.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: So I was I would do a lot of reading and some meditation, like making sure that I had quiet times and moments to myself.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: That was difficult in the beginning.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: I I think in the beginning I was doing a lot of going, going, going, going, going.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: I was I was so afraid of being alone.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like one of the blessings of my breakup was I would say my biggest fear my whole life was being alone, which is sort of strange because I love being alone, but I want to be alone with that person in the other room.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I like my time to myself, but I I felt like I had to have that security of that other person there in the house.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, I needed that safety net, I needed that security.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: So I was just really, really terrified that I wasn't able to make it on my own.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: So to me, it was a blessing in that I had to face that fear.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm actually I'm gonna give myself some credit here and say I didn't have to face that fear, I chose to face that fear.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Like when that relationship ended, I said a couple things to myself.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: One thing was, you know, I feel sure that in five years down the road, which coincidentally that's where I am right now, I will look back and be grateful for this and see how it served me rather than hurt me.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: So the day that that happened, which was Memorial Day 2021, as broken up as I was, I said, I'm not waiting five years to be grateful.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm choosing to like very, very sad and heartbroken and scared, like honoring all of that, but also saying, and grateful.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm just choosing to believe this is gonna be for me, like this is this was happening for me, not to me.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think that helped really that's really powerful, allowing yourself to explore all of those range of feelings and emotions, right?
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Like super powerful.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned the fear of of being alone.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: And I would like for you to tell me what your exploration was in terms of loneliness versus being alone and and how you navigated that.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: So in the beginning, I would say it was exhausting because the way I was navigating it was not giving myself much time to be alone.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I was setting up dates, meetings, whatever, like every night of the week.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: And so I would get home from work, I would go to the gym or do my run, I would get showered, and then it would be out the door to meet somebody for dinner or to whatever.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: It was just not making sure there was not going to be a moment alone.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: And if one was anywhere on the horizon, I was in a panic.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could be like, oh, that Tuesday, two weeks from now, I don't have plans.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And I would just, my body would tense up and I'd be in a panic.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, what am I gonna do?
19:42
SPEAKER_01: So I kind of I allowed myself that for a while.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm I'm not looking back at that as a negative, like it's what I needed in that moment to get through.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: I I had to do that.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: But what started to change was I'd go, especially Friday and Saturday nights, for some reason, there would be this voice in my head that would be saying, like, only a loser is home alone on Friday and Saturday nights.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: So those were the most critical for me of like I went out by myself all the time just because I'm not sitting home and I'm happy to go out by myself.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: Like I just wanted to be around people.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: So I would go out.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, months of that went by and I was getting more and more exhausted.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: And I can remember like the first time that I was out on a Friday night and thinking, okay, how soon can I go home?
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Like suddenly I had like this longing to be home and in my comfortable space.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: So I remember thinking, okay, how long do I have to stay out before I can kind of safely go back home and say, okay, I did it.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: I went out.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: And that struck me as like, what am I saying?
20:47
SPEAKER_01: How long do I have to stay?
20:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't have to stay out at all.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's what is this about that I feel this?
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Like I have to.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: So I decided to start experimenting with what it would be like if like a Friday night I didn't go out.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: And it was really uncomfortable in the beginning.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: It was all those voices in my head saying, you know, the whole only illusory, yada yada.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: So but I did it, you know, and then I found like with each time it became easier, like more and more, especially Friday nights, I'd be like, I am exhausted from this work week.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just want to stay in.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: So that was a nice turning point for me.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: There were some big, big things like New Year's.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, I always thank God I had found this gay men's retreat center that always did this like retreat, like a five-day retreat centered around New Year's.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like it's one of those holidays that's a nothing holiday, but it's also a holiday that's like, I feel like there's so much importance put on your out with your loved ones on New Year's.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, I can't be alone on New Year's.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, went through three or four New Year.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: And then finally, I was up at that same retreat one year, and it was, I think, the day before, I think it might have been.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: New Year's Eve, but during the day.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, I sort of want to be home.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: And it was like a four and a half hour drive to get home.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know what?
22:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm going home.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: So I packed up my car and I drove home.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: And again, it was really tense.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: And I I felt like because I was alone on New Year's and it was not comfortable.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: There were many moments that it was very my anxiety was like through the roof, and all the voices in my head and yada yada.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And then once it got a little later, I calmed down and I was like, okay, this is actually kind of lovely.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Like it's a nice quiet evening and I can do whatever I want.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: I did go for a run earlier in the evening, which is one of I would say the most important tools in my toolbox because it allows me to burn off excess energy that can become nervous and anxious energy.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: So I think that helped.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: But again, then I was like, okay, now the biggest thing for me this last five years was about fear.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: I was wanting freedom, and I was like, I want freedom from fear, and particular, in particular, this fear of being alone.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: So I had made up my mind again on that Memorial Day, 2021.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I said to myself is I am not leaving this planet afraid of being alone.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: Your words are powerful.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for stepping into that vulnerability and sharing.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Because there's a lot of us out there who can't aren't willing to face what you've gone through.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: I was just so tired of the fear, you know, honestly.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I was like, I'm not.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: If I do, if I do leave this planet still afraid of being alone, it's not going to be for lack of trying.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do all of the work to try to get myself there.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: And loneliness is is really it's really a mental construct, because you you you you know you've we referred to it a few times in your sharing there.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: That my mind kept telling me, and and that's and that's what it is.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: We get into this programming, and it can be so toxic and so unhelpful, uh, especially when we're going through an evolution, especially when we're awakening to a deeper version of ourselves.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And some of that stuff can feel very much like, you know, when when that unconscious stuff is coming to the surface, that we can experience these dark nights of the soul where we just feel like, oh, everything's so grotesquely uncomfortable.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: But we navigate through that.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: We're very resilient, we humans.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, like you just gave yourself credit.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for how strong we can be.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: But I think this idea of loneliness is it's endemic, endemic in our in our in the gay culture.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've been having these conversations.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: I had a conversation with you.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: I've had conversations over the last several weeks with about 45 men.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: And some people skirt around this issue of loneliness.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: And and and I see that, right?
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Because it's something that I've dealt with in my life as a single person most of my life and living alone most of my life.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: It's how do you reconcile that being alone and being comfortable in your own skin and not being lonely?
25:19
SPEAKER_00: And I personally believe a lot of it has to do with that deep inner discovery, like really loving yourself, not because of what you look like out there in the bar or even at the gym and all of that stuff, but what's inside.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: And then when that's kind of feeling good, then the wrapping of it all looks good and feels good.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: The energy you exude is is really powerful.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: But it takes work, you know, and it takes, it takes, I think it it's the it's a paradox here because I think of you know, the community and the supports that you have can also, they can be a crutch, but they can also be what helps you to come into your your true essence of who you are.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: And also like I feel like it's worth adding, like another thing that helped me was the realization that everybody gets lonely.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Like it's not none of us escape that.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Like you can be in the best marriage in the world, you can be, you know, none of us gets to escape that.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: It's part of the human condition that we have moments that feel lonely.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: And that actually helped me and kind of soothed me to be like, you know what, I'm just having a normal human experience.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: This is not something that I'm doing wrong or that's out of the ordinary.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm just having a normal human experience.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And again, like I'm fortunate that I do have a lot of support in my life.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: So I I just want to honor that or express that gratitude that I do have love and support in my life.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's definitely moments that still feel quite lonely.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: There's a beautiful book, Loneliness, Human Nature and the Need for Social Connection.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll put a link in into the show notes here.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: It's quite powerful.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: I read it recently when I knew I was going to be, you know, venturing into this work because I know this is a big issue for many people.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: And part of it's actually, you know, when they did the research into this, some of it's actually encoded in our DNA.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So what you said there, like you can be around around a lot of people.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: You can be immersed in, you know, what would seem like a very non-lonely environment, but you are lonely because there's something in you that that has that feeling, that that emotion.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, how do we reconcile that?
27:41
SPEAKER_00: How do we, how do we work with that?
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: And there are a number of different ways.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: But I think for me, what's been really, really helpful is just being able to be, to sit with yourself and to get still.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And your idea of the Friday nights, your example of the Friday nights, and how all those voices in your head saying, what a loser sitting at home on Friday night when you can break through that first layer and then and then that layer of discomfort, and then be able to find, well, how can I be more comfortable here?
28:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, what do I do that makes me comfortable?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: I go for a run.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, so you start to find the tools that work for you.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden it's like, I want to be home.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: And you know what I think is so beautiful about you said this twice.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: I I I just wanted to be home, is when your home feels like that place that holds you and nurtures you that you yearn for, then there is no lonely anymore.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Because you're in, you're you're being held by the space that you've created.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like being back in the womb, but it's your it's your home, it's your space.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: And there's something really sweet about that too.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: And I gotta say, that also was work.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Like that, that took time, you know, when I first was on my own and I bought a home in the city and I wasn't used to that.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: So I was a bit fearful in the beginning about, you know, it was just a very different way of living and lots of noises that I was unfamiliar with, you know, all day and all night long.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: And just being, you know, by myself.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I can remember for the first couple of years at least, like if I'd go go home to Cincinnati and stay with family for a week or something, feeling not good about going home was not a good feeling.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: It was like knowing, oh, I have to go back to that place where I'm all alone and it feels uncomfortable and it's something I'm not used to.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it took years before it really felt like it was embracing me in my comfortable spot.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I like to think of my house as like we take care of each other.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: I care for my home and it cares for me.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's so beautiful.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's not an overnight thing.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: That's that's for sure.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to pretend that it was for me.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: No.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: So find the wisdom trust on school school.com slash the dash wisdom dash trust slash about.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Website is wisdomtrust50.com.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Find us on Substack, the Wisdom Trust.substack.com.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And if you're not watching this on YouTube, youtube.com slash at the Wisdom Trust 50.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: See you on those platforms.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: So wonderful.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: So you you you've gone through, you know, this journey, and here you are five years post you know, separation, divorce from your partner, your husband, and you're doing all these wonderful things.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: So, what did that shift?
30:33
SPEAKER_00: I knew I know, like you said, how how scary it was initially.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: What did that give you freedom from?
30:39
SPEAKER_00: What did it open you up to?
30:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, for me, the biggest freedom was the freedom of that fear of being alone.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Like you'll see, that's like a major theme in my life because it was just such a big fear.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: It just very much controlled me and made me stay in situations that maybe weren't great and didn't feel comfortable because what's the alternative?
31:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm alone.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: So to have some freedom from that fear just felt so very liberating.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And again, that also took years, you know.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: And I can remember, I was really, really doing the work.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And I can remember like about a year in having a bad evening where I just felt all the same usual fears and felt like I was enacting all the same patterns.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And again, like the story in my head was telling me was you have not changed a bit.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Like almost like laughing at me, like, look how hard you've been working.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's been a year that you've been working, and you're exactly the same person you were a year ago.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: And I believed it for a minute, and that was like really not a good moment.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: And then I had to thank God step back and like challenged that, yeah, and was like, well, lots of evidence to the contrary.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And at first I did it, it's almost like an argument with myself where you know, and I stood up for myself and said, You the very fact that I've done it for a year means I'm not the person I was a year ago.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: Like if nothing else has changed about me, the very fact that I did it and I survived.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: So those I'm not the same person I was a year ago.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Those voices in positive intelligence, you know, we we refer to the main judge who's always like making critical, you know, summations of who and what you are or other people or situations, right?
32:34
SPEAKER_00: It's always judging something.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: And then it has its accomplices, these saboteurs, right?
32:40
SPEAKER_00: So great that you were able to find the wherewithal to challenge those voices because they are strong, right?
32:46
SPEAKER_00: And and as a positive intelligence code coach and mental fitness coach, we equip people with tools to navigate that stuff because man, it can keep you down, it can make you small, you know, those voices.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: So that that's brilliant.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: And again, so absurd so often, you know, like when you get a chance to step back and really look at it and challenge it, it's like it's the whole idea is just absurd, and yet it's so easy to fall on the trap of believing it.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Can you you mentioned, you know, you you out of fear you would put yourself in situations that you didn't you probably didn't want to be in out of fear?
33:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to like, you know, drudge up old stuff or old patterns, but it could be helpful to someone listening or watching some examples of what some of those were where you knew you this wasn't the place for you to be any longer or whatever, but you just stuck it out or you you you forced yourself to be there.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I hate to say, but I I would say my marriage, you know, and my husband's a lovely man, you know, just but it was not good in the end for either one of us.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, for I'm gonna say a year or two, possibly longer.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think I reached the point where I realized I think I kept holding out hope that it was gonna get better.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't all fear of being alone, like I loved my husband, so it wasn't just fear of being alone, but I think that made me maybe stay and try to make it work and maybe tolerate some things longer than I might have if I hadn't just been so afraid to be on my own.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And I think in the past also I was never on my own very long because if a relationship ended, I was immediately on the lookout for okay, who's next?
34:41
SPEAKER_01: And I think there might have been time I've been very, I will say I've been very fortunate in the men that I've spent my life with, all lovely men, but you know, I think sometimes I got into relationships just because like I felt safer.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: And that was definitely where I was getting my sense of worthiness.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I I definitely had the sense of if if nobody loves you, you're unlovable.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, so I felt like to for me to feel lovable, I had to be loved, I had to be chosen.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Like a really, really hard thing for me to get past is that idea of needing for someone to choose me.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: And I would say that's still a struggle to this day.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I've come a long way, but it still comes up sometimes of that just wanting someone to choose me and you know, having to work with that, you know.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: And at the risk of sounding myself over and over again.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, sorry.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: At the risk of sounding cliche, I was like, you know, and at what point does Jack choose himself first and foremost above all others, right?
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Because that's ultimately it.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: I've always been of the feeling, and maybe to an extreme.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying I've got this stuff figured out because God only knows, it's a process, right?
35:53
SPEAKER_00: But that if I haven't done my inner work, like if I don't love myself and I'm kind of going into a relationship from usually that would be an unconscious or subconscious place of make me whole, Mister.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: I just think that's such an unfair burden to put on someone.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Because you know, as soon as anything's going wrong, they're going to be the problem.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, because we don't have that wherewithal necessarily to hold up the mirror.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And again, it's because we don't have that ultimate self-acceptance, love.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Some of us are, again, I'll speak a little bit about positive intelligence language.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Some of us are super high achievers.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: We're doing, doing, going, going, doing, you know, and and we've got all this stuff on the go.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: And people often think, well, that's that's what our society is about.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: That's a good thing.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: No, because if we're that way, often our love is conditional, our self-love is conditional upon how much we're doing and achieving, which is insidious and awful.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: You know.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: So there's a whole bunch of layers to this stuff that that is fascinating.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was just my my thing around, and and again, I think I took it way too extreme, where it's like, yeah, but then you're using that almost as an excuse to not step into the vulnerability of love coming into your life and all of that, right?
37:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: So wonderful.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: So now you moved into this whole single dude after being sounds like a monogamous guy.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: And so you had freedoms there, you know.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: I we talked a lot about the fear of the alone stuff, but what did that open up for you?
37:34
SPEAKER_01: It opened up like a world in a way.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like I'm just so much more social now than I was before.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: I before I always kind of thought of myself as an introvert and loved evenings at home and felt like I can only be out socially every once in a while.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: And now I feel like I really, really love being social.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: I love the people that have come into my life.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: I feel like my life feels bigger.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, like meeting so many people and seeing what their interests are and being introduced to so many different kinds of things, and I'm suddenly traveling on my own, which you know, I hadn't done a lot of travel before.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think like working my way past that fear of being alone, I think, because that was my biggest fear, has also made other fears seem easy in a way.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: So, like where before I might have been afraid to travel on my own.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm like, oh, I got this, like I can do this.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think to me, the biggest change, besides how I feel about myself, like like what you were talking about, the inner work and really learning to love myself and not making that conditional on somebody else loving me.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd say that's been the biggest change.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: Trusting myself more.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: I think part of the reason I was so afraid, you know, again, I was the youngest of six and it was all girls.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I had no shortage of people taking care of me.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: And so I think I didn't really learn to rely on myself and to have this sense of I can take care of myself.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, when I'm motivated to do something, I can absolutely do it.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: But I I always I think had a little bit of worry that I couldn't take care of myself.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, um just it just opened up this whole world of self-trust.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, so I guess is what I was saying is learning to love myself.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: It opened that up a lot lot more for me.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Like I've had no choice, and so I'm glad I was forced into stepping up my game in that area, but also just love the connections that I've made since I've been single and the beautiful people that have come into my life.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: I I just feel really, really fortunate to have met the people that I have, and you know, people keep showing up.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: There's there's a really beautiful paradox because you know, we've we've had this discussion about the loneliness and the fear of being alone.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's juxtaposed with everything you're saying.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: You you know, hear about all of a sudden there's all these new connections and new relationships, and you're discovering the depth of people in new ways and and and how to be in the world differently.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: And at the one hand, you can be at home alone and and not be lonely.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you're at that stage now, but also be entirely engaged and and connected on so many levels.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: And on that note, too, like sometimes when I'm feeling alone, I have to like stop and ask myself, like, what are you really feeling?
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you sure it's loneliness?
40:45
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it is, but I've started challenging that even because sometimes I'm sitting there feeling alone while my phone is dinging and friends are like messaging me and reaching out and stuff.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes I'm like, what is this really?
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Because you know, you've got a lot of people in your life that love you and care about you and reach out to you daily.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: And so, what's this about?
41:04
SPEAKER_01: What is where's this feeling coming from?
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Very powerful observation because I I think that a lot of us men, even at this stage, we still struggle with identifying what is it that I'm feeling right now.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, what you just said.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: I remember a few months ago, I was standing in the kitchen and I had this kind of feeling coming over me, and I was like, what the heck is that?
41:25
SPEAKER_00: And then I realized it was grief.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh my God, that's grief.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's not a feeling that I'd kind of consciously identified and labeled before.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, where the hell is that coming from?
41:41
SPEAKER_00: And it was just really interesting.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, so yeah, for those of us who are listening or whatever who aren't as attuned to the emotions, it's not a bad idea just to sit with them and to do like the inquiry, like what you know, people are messaging me.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: I I'm not really alone or lonely.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is that?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: And who knows what's behind that, right?
42:03
SPEAKER_00: There could be some unresolved, it could be grief, sadness, whatever the case may be.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: And all of that stuff, I say this a lot.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, the more we can tap into it, that's healthy for us holistically, because if those issues aren't addressed, they get stuck in the tissues, right?
42:23
SPEAKER_00: And and then that results in health problems and things.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds super, super superficial, but it's not.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, we're a holistic being and and and energy and emotions are just energy and motion, and they can get stuck in us in certain ways.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: And so when we can identify them, not avoid them.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we have uh great avoiding tactics too, you know, to keep constantly busy, keep doing the things and don't feel anything, you know.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, feelings are are tricky for us guys.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes for me, I've identified it as anxiety.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I think what's really happening is I'm feeling anxious and kind of going back to what you were saying about putting expectations on a partner, I'm feeling anxious.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: So I'm wanting that person to be there to help me, you know, with this uncomfortable feeling.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And so even that I have to stop and think like, is that fair to put on somebody?
43:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, it just kind of helps to say when you know, sometimes it is loneliness, but when I can identify of like, oh, I think this is more that I'm just feeling anxious, and so I want a distraction or I want somebody to help me through this and be able to say, you know, you got this, you don't know.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: And the interesting thing about anxiety and anxiousness, it's very a mental thing, right?
43:39
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: And when we catch ourselves with that, if we can remember to go back into the body, like just feel your feet on the floor, feel your seat in the chair, maybe even close your eyes and just start to connect with your breath.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: And there can be a really powerful settling because that somatic work is really, really good at sort of.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Reining in some of that disparate energy of anxiety, right?
44:03
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be contained a little bit so that then we can think a little bit more clearly.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: So tell us then, you're you're a bit of a jock.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: You're doing your stuff.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: We can we can see, you know, your pecs kind of poking through your t-shirt.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: So how are you leveling up at this stage?
44:24
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be 63 next week, did you say?
44:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh 62.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: 62.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: So what do you like?
44:31
SPEAKER_00: What does leveling up look like for you?
44:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what you're asking me.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, can you give me an example?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, so a lot of times this is a time when a lot of us will be kind of like doing less, right?
44:45
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying, oh, we should be out there doing a whole bunch of stuff, but it is all about energy.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: So how do we effectively utilize our energy intelligently, you know?
44:56
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that might be, well, I give myself adequate time to rest and to recover from a busy week, for example.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, I go for self-care stuff like massage, or it could be I give myself, I started giving myself, you know, 10 or 20 minutes of meditation every morning before I start my day.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: These kinds of things.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: When when when when stress comes upon you or anxiety sets in, you know, what are some of the tools that you have to kind of like go, no, I'm gonna like move beyond that?
45:27
SPEAKER_00: This idea of moving.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: The other thing too is this is a stage of life where I like to see it as uh potentially the best stage of life, right?
45:39
SPEAKER_00: So we do need to level up, even from a social awareness point of view, and from what we've been taught about this stage of aging, that it's the beginning of the end, it's the decline.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like it doesn't have to be.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: If you believe that, sure.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: But so that kind of thing, like shifting gears at this stage in life.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I would say a number of things.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Some of it, one of the things I try to do is keep my mind active and working, constantly learning.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: So I've been learning Spanish for a couple of years now.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: So first thing in the morning, I use the Duolingo app and I spend my first 20 to 30 minutes in the morning like doing my Spanish lessons.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: And it just feels really good for me.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm stretching my brain, I feel like I'm working on my memory, and it's a good feeling to feel like I'm learning something new.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: As far as like physical activity, kind of doing what I've always been doing, but more recently I've started wondering.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: I've in the gym, I've sort of just been maintaining my focus, has been on like don't lose what you have.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: And I started finally thinking, is that a limiting belief?
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, could I go up on my weights?
46:57
SPEAKER_01: Like I've been doing the same weights for so long and just thinking, just don't lose it.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I started like, you know, with my chest, I was like, let me see if I can push up a little bit, like what I'm doing with my weights.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: So I found I can to some degree, but it whereas before I might could increase my weight and within one or two weeks have adjusted to this new weight and be okay.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm finding it's about a six-month process for me to go up maybe five pounds on my chest.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I'm working on it.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, each week it's like, okay, if I can have that extra five pounds and do one more set than I did last week, like then that's growth.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's hard.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: I try to keep the balance with that.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like certainly as I age, there's gonna come a day when I have to dial back a little bit to take care of myself.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: But right now I feel like if I feel like pushing and my body is not, you know, resisting that idea, then let me go ahead and do that.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: And then I'd also say like leveling up socially a bit.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: I was feeling like I was having a hard time.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: It took a long time to build a friendship base when I became single.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of felt like I had a friend here and I had a friend here and I had a friend here, but I didn't have like a group of friends that I felt like some other people do.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I was just doing everything under the sun to put myself out there and to like try to make connections with people and make friends.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: I joined the Philadelphia Gay Men's Chorus, which I absolutely love.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: Going out country line dancing and meeting people that way.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's happening, but it's been happening really, really slowly for me, which I've just kind of honestly like it's so ironic, it's always the way it is.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: But I think when I kind of stopped pushing so hard is when things started shifting and happening for me.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: And then suddenly, like, friends were coming into my life.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: And then I also like maybe this is an example of leveling up.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, I decided why don't I start a group?
49:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, why do I have to wait to be invited to some other group?
49:07
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I loved fiber arts, I loved crocheting is something that's also helped me through the last five years.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: I I would say it started in the pandemic, it was something to do when I was shut in.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: But it's really, really therapeutic and kind of zen-like for me.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: So I really got into crocheting.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: And in the chorus, kind of ran into a couple of other people who crochet.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: So I said, why don't we do like a fiber arts night?
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Like every other Tuesday, you come over to my place, whatever your fiber art of choice is, bring it along.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: We will spend some shared space, just everybody working on their art or their craft, drink some wine, eat some snacks.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: And now that is grown.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's like every other Tuesday.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: So I feel good about that, like of kind of making something happen on my own instead of sort of waiting, sitting back and hoping to be invited into something else.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: That's that I love that.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: So good.
50:05
SPEAKER_00: You're the second crochet guy that I've I've had an interview with.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm thinking, well, maybe maybe we need to create create a little bit of a crochet circle here somehow.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: We'll figure it out later.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: Those of us who do it are pretty passionate about it.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I I've seen online uh yeah, a few people who are doing it and be very passionate.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: That's it's lovely.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: So that sounds like a lot of fun, actually.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you're you're really embracing fun as part of this stage in your life.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've shared so much already.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: Is there is there anything that's missing, anything else that you you want to share with us around, you know, how you're showing up for yourself?
50:48
SPEAKER_01: No, I think we covered it.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the physical activity again with arts and crafts things, fiber arts night, singing.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: I try to just be open to new things.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, if if somebody, if I meet someone and they're doing something and it resonates with me and it sounds like fun, then you know, I'm not afraid to jump in and say, okay, let's see what this feels like.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it feels important to me to find ways to connect with people like outside the bars.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: And don't get me wrong, I enjoy going to the bars, but I also feel like I'm always looking for ways we can connect that don't involve an app or being at a bar.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that curiosity, I think, is really important, right?
51:30
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I think it can get a little bit dampened at this stage in life where it's kind of like, you know, and earlier in the in the discussion, you used the word comfort a few times, like the comfort of your your relationship, right?
51:43
SPEAKER_00: And then there was another comfort example.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: And so comfort can be, you know, the enemy of innovation and and creativity.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: And and I would I would welcome folks out there who are maybe feeling a little bit super comfortable, you know, just to do a little reflection.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like, is there something I could be exploring differently that could bring a little bit more fun and joie de vive and in into my life, right?
52:09
SPEAKER_00: And and it doesn't have to be sometimes we have these grandiose ideas of what things have to be.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: It could be something really simple, you know, that that can that can change that fun barometer from here, you know, and just shift it over a little bit.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: And it can be scary at first, but you know, I mean, it can be a community class or something that it's always scary to go to the first one, but then I find I inevitably am happy that I went or not, you know, or I always tell myself I can go, and if I don't like it, I don't have to go again.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: But can I just tell you like just a quick story about related to comfort?
52:44
SPEAKER_01: So when I first was single, and you know, the still the really terrifying stages, and there's a song that has a line about being in the space between the two trapeze, and that's how I felt.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, that's exactly how I feel.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: And like to me, it was like a free-falling sensation that I was imagining, like waiting for that next trapeze.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: And then in time, that like changed for me, and I kind of reframed it and thought, oh, when you're between the two trapeze, you're flying, like you're not falling, you're flying.
53:19
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like thinking of it that way.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: And it was such a better feeling of like, okay, I'm in a space where I'm flying right now until I grab that next chapis, and but still watching for that next chap piece.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: And then I hit the stage where I am now where I'm like, I don't know that I want to grab the next chapis because that feels like that comfortable spot that I'm like, I don't know that I want to get that comfortable again.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe there's nothing to grab, and maybe that's okay.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And like maybe I don't need to be looking for that solid ground for that next thing to grab onto.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe it's okay to live in the space where you are flying and letting things happen as they want to happen and not trying to grab onto something and hold something that maybe not really be holdable.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: That's precious.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: And it just reflects on what I was journaling about this morning.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: Actually, this idea of how challenging it is just to be present and to be in presence and to not be like grasping for something, right?
54:18
SPEAKER_00: Or pushing something away, you know, because this is the folly of the mind.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: It's it's the conditioned mind.
54:24
SPEAKER_00: It's always like looking for preferences and and and and and averting things it doesn't like.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: So there's this, but when we can just be, you know, in the moment.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: And and that's you know, I've been meditating for decades now, and and and I f I still find it interesting.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I take that presence that I can cultivate in a practice into like the day-to-day stuff, right?
54:48
SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of what you're describing.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like, how do I fly and just be okay with the flying and know that on some level the universe is there, she's she's gonna look after us, God, whatever language you want to use, right?
55:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's ultimately us in the end, looking after ourselves.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: So let's just move to the little final chapter of the discussion here around wisdom.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: You've already shared a whole bunch, which is super beneficial.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: But are there any concluding thoughts or ideas around what you might want to share with someone?
55:23
SPEAKER_00: Thinking maybe if someone is in that place that you were in, like debating, is this relationship, do I really want to stick it out?
55:31
SPEAKER_00: Or or they're in the stages of, you know, the relationship is ended.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they've lost their partner and they're going through that lonely period.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: And then this discovery of all of these amazing things that you're doing.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, any any final words that you might want to share?
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think like regarding a relationship, like obviously you can't tell anybody else like what's right for them.
55:55
SPEAKER_01: I can tell you I knew there was a coin drop for me.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: So when when it was over, it literally was like a coin drop where I was like, Oh, this is not gonna work.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: Like so I'm I'm trying to figure out why I'm saying that.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm saying, like, if you're in a relationship and you're not sure, like, is this right, is this not right, or whatever, I would say like be gentle with yourself, give yourself grace.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: Don't I wouldn't rush anything, but also listen to yourself.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: But I do feel like you know, like you know, and you and you when it's if that moment comes, for me, there was no doubting it.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: It was just all at once, just so many things hit at once.
56:49
SPEAKER_01: The coin dropped, it was I knew, and at the same time, there was also some kind of a peace with that.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: While at the same time, I was very distraught and upsetting and whatever.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: There also is a bit of a peace with it, also, and maybe it's that coming back to yourself, maybe it's that finally like yourself knowing, like, hey, this is what's right for you.
57:12
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I just I I don't know, other than to say listen to yourself and be gentle with yourself, give yourself a lot of grace if you're in any kind of a difficult situation that you're doing the best that you possibly can.
57:24
SPEAKER_01: And when it's the right time to make a move, you'll if it's the right time to make a move, you'll make that move.
57:30
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think it's all okay.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, I keep wanting to go down back to that.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: What was that, the greatest Magnolia Hotel or something?
57:41
SPEAKER_01: Or like it's all okay in the end, and if it's not all okay, it's not yet the end.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: But you know, back to your point, like I I believe that the universe is always working for us, whether it feels like that or looks like that or not.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's a walk that I have to remind myself sometimes when it doesn't feel that way, and things are looking kind of crappy, and I have to kind of stop and say, all right, this is one of those moments where it if this is what you believe, that the universe is always working in your favor, then this is the moment to accept what's happening and and not just accept it, but be grateful for it and trust that it's working something fantastic in you.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's lovely when time passes and you see like that that is happening.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: But I think part of that is also I think you do have to be willing to let go of the past to be able to move forward.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we're we're very rear view focused people, right?
58:39
SPEAKER_00: A lot of time is spent in the past.
58:41
SPEAKER_00: The thing about the fear, which is really interesting too, is the only way to get past the fear is to go through it.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, like you you just have to go through it.
58:53
SPEAKER_00: And that can be, you know, terrifying, obviously, and different gradients of fear for sure.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: But but yeah, getting anyone of us, we've all gone through something that that's been a you know a fear kind of obstacle, and we've had to get through it, and we we do get through it, and we get to the other side.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: And and like you were saying earlier, in retrospect, looking back, it's like, oh, I I don't know why that felt so heavy or so so intense at the time, but it does.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it definitely does.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, it does.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's that quote, and that definitely resonated for me.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure I'm quoting it exactly correctly, but it's something along the lines of the cave, the cave you're afraid to enter is the cave that holds the treasure.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: And that definitely was on my mind, like, you know, when all this transition was happening, because I knew how afraid I was of being single.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I just had to cling to that belief of like, I have to believe though that by facing like walking into the fire, like gonna that's the only way to get to that treasure.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: And the treasure is loving myself again and yeah, you know, feeling feeling more grounded and just more whole and more in love with myself.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_00: Yay, love that.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, facing the fear makes us stronger for sure.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's hard, but but it does make us stronger.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: That's that's really, really brilliant.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to thank you, Jack, for showing up here and and showing up in in a really bold and vulnerable way too with what you shared with us.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: So I really honor that.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people will benefit from from what you've shared.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: And it was really therapeutic for me, like just to be able to talk about these things.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's really part of what this community is is we're building is about.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: It's to be able to have these conversations.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, there are a lot of platforms out there where where gay men are are having conversations, but sometimes these deeper discussions can be easier to avoid, that's what we say, than to tackle.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: And and and I think in tackling them, it there's not necessarily a heaviness, there's a there's a a lifting up by by being able to you know just just go in by sharing your stories, those of you that I I get to do these uh precious interviews with, you're helping so many people navigate what they're going through.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: Thank you to our guests today, and thank you for listening.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: If what you heard landed with you, if you felt seen, heard, inspired to make a shift, want to hear about it.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: Get back to me on one of our platforms or where you're listening to or seeing this.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: And if you know another man over 50 who you think benefit from hearing this, share it with them, please.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: This community grows when we show up for each other.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: You can find more essays on these topics, reflections, and such at our Substack account.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: Watch for other content on our YouTube channel, and stay connected to us through our school platform.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: This is where we engage in building our community.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: Remember, the second half of life isn't the beginning of the end.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: For many of us, it's the moment life finally begins to open.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: You're not alone in this, we're in it together.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: See you next time.