Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Unhoused pt. 2

Transcript

Unhoused pt. 2 · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why We Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what We Do. I am your
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Still Tending It host Abraham and I'm.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Your future Tiny Home host Shane.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: try and understand them through the lens of science and
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: psychology and scientific psychology. If you will, and if you're
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: joining us for the first time, I do want to
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: point out that this is a second part in what
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: will definitely be a two part series on this particular topic,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: which is houselessness.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so today we are going to do a
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: brief recap of what happened in that previous episode. But
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: we do recommend listening to that previous episode because there's
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of detail and a lot of important stats
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: and stuff that I think will be helpful for understanding
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: how business as it pertains specifically to the United States
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and some of the misconceptions that come up there.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Nevertheless, if you do choose to just go ahead and
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: not do that, go back and listen to that one
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: if you haven't heard it already, we will do our best.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Like you'll still get information from this that I think
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: is usable. You just won't have some of the foundation
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: that we established and some of the details and nuance
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: that we had discussed last time. But that's okay. We'll
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: do a quick summary before we dive into this, and
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: then you do you. I guess listen. You're going to listen,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: and thanks for being here at all. Really, if you're
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: joining us for the first time, then I would say
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. At the end
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: of this discussion, we'll go with you some fun thing
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: called recommendations, and they'll talk about all the ways that
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: you can support us if you end up enjoying what
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: you hear and would like to But I'll quickly say
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: that you can do this by joining us on Patreon,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: picking up some merch, leaving us a rating and a
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: review you liking, subscribing, and telling a friend about us.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: But again, I'll detail more of that at the end
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: of this discussion. For returning listeners, thanks for being here
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: with us. Glad you're you're you're coming back. Yeah, I
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: hope you enjoy today's episode is all the past ones
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: that you have likely enjoyed. Yeah, and yeah, if you
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: if you want to support us, we we obviously would
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: definitely appreciate that. But whether or not you are new,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: whether or not you are old in terms of your
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: listenership to us, we're old, new, or returning. I would
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: like to wish you all Global Day of the Engineer.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: It sounds ominous, I think as far as Yeah, that's
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: like a weird anyway. It's also International Fact Checking Day,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: so you know, I don't know if the us SO
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: celebrates that anymore, but I feel like we should.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should. Definitely we do not anymore. National Day
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: of Hope. Oh well, good luck with that.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: It's also at ferrot Day, so happy day for those
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: long sneaky furry things.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: They're cute. I love ferrets. It is durable National Love
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: your Produce Manager Day, maybe like platonic love.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like maybe more of like a greater appreciation than
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: you normally do. Yeah, like don't don't go after the
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: lettuce guy. It is National Peanut butter and jelly Day. Riches.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going to make an argument. I'm gonna stand. I'm
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna say something controversial here. Okay, I think
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: that might be the best kind of sandwich.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: That's fair. I tell you what, I actually I love
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: peanut butter and jelly. And I'm also very good with
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: just peanut butter.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: On the set, which yes, yes, uh huh.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but I prefer my
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: bread a little toasted, a little toasted peanut butter and
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: jelly sandwich.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: That sounds really good.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean, however, however you get the peanut
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: butter and jelly in there, I mean, it's a victory.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: So this is one of We've talked about a lot
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of holidays, but this one I think really stands out
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: as a fantastic one.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: I think that's our fait. This might be our favorite holiday.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, always spend a lot of time on it already,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: But I mean there's lots of great ones. There's like
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Science Day or like you know, protecting people of vulnerable populations.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: There's tons of stuff like that that are sure, but sure,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: maybe my favorite food holiday.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair reasonable.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: That was the most amount of time we've ever spent
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: talking about a holiday. It is also National Walking.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Day, it certainly is. It's also paraprofessional Appreciation Day, So
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: please give them appreciation. Uh, don't don't underestimate them.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, I might need your help with this one is
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: this is this Pascua.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: That's the way that I would assume.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, Pascua Florida Day.
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  Speaker 2: So as a Floridian. That's the first time I've ever
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: heard of this.
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  Speaker 1: Oh okay, got you great.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's also a Reconciliation Day.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, truth and reconciliation. If you are a fan
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: of the Halo franchise. It is a World Autism Awareness Day.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: It certainly is. It is American Cross this Word Puzzle Week,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: and it is a Pause or Apaws International Pooper Scooper Week.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I do appreciate the term Pooper Scooper and that like
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: somebody had to go through like a trademark and copyright
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: and all that stuff to get that approved. And like
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: there's probably people that were pretty upset about that. Oh yeah, yeah,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: that was like the thing that they ended on and
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: people were pretty they had to they had to go
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: through official paperwork. I loved that.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: I think it was accomplishment.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Good job, yeah, good job on them. It is Golden
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Rule Week.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, very nice, very nice. It is laugh at
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: work Week.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I do that sometimes because if you don't, you'll cry
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: at work week. I'm just kidding. No, just kidding. It
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: is Medication Safety Week, super important.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: It is Testicular Cancer Awareness Week also super important.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, it's the second of the month.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: It's April second, so we are entering a new month
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: of celebrations. And so this month it is National Pickleball Month.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Okay, that's exciting. Is also Limb Loss
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: and Limb Difference Awareness Month. Hey, we've done at least
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: an episode on this, and we talked about phantom limb pain.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Yes we did, we did. It is also National Brunch Month,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: which I don't think that we've done an episode on brunch.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Maybe we should.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Coun We did talk I think about three meals per day. Yes, yeah,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: we didn't unpacked the hobbit meals. So one day. National
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Child Abuse Prevention Month. That one I was keenly ware.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: We've we've talked about that before for April, but good
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: to remind people. Yeah, yeah, don't abuse children.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. It's a National humor month as well.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Interesting juxtaposition, and as we mentioned, National Autism Awareness Month
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: or Acceptance Month is another way that this is talked about. Yes, yes,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: absolutely cool. All right, well we do more than just
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: talk about holidays. That's just a fun that's the amuse
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: boosh if you will. As we go, Yes, as we
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: go into our discussion, just kicking off with our brand
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: of thinking and talking about things. I guess. So we are,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: as we mentioned, returning to our discussion about houselessness. So
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: let's do a quick recap of what we talked about
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: last time, and I think as a quick summary some
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: of the things that we did as we distinguished homelessness
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: from houselessness and sort of why. There are practical reasons,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: not just politically correct ones, although again, as we've talked
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: about before, it's not not wrong to try and be
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: sensitive and not be a jerk to people right anyway,
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  Speaker 1: I think unpacked the technical justification for why we'd call
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: it houselessness instead of homelessness, And one that I thought
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: was a poignant example in this is that people who
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: live and travel in RV by choice, we don't usually
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: talk about them as being homeless, and in fact they
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: might call that their home because that is where they
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: live and spend all their time. And there are other
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  Speaker 1: examples too of people who live in things that or
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: not conventionally houses, whether or not they choose to end
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: up there, it just is technically more accurate to call
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: it houselessness, right.
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  Speaker 2: We also talked about the rise of houselessness. Since twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty two, there's been a pretty significant increase in houselessness
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  Speaker 2: people entering emergency shelters, and we also have seen that
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  Speaker 2: there is a pretty significant amount of people that as
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  Speaker 2: far as demographics go, that include people of color, veterans
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  Speaker 2: as well, and so there's kind of a large increase
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  Speaker 2: the across the board as far as like those demographics
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  Speaker 2: inside of the housesness population.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and then we did start getting into some myths,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: myths and misconceptions about houselessness. We talked about the idea
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: that people should just get a job as sort of
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  Speaker 1: this you know, almost like they're there by choice, which
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: actually is myth too, is that they choose to be
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: unhoused that we so impact those.
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  Speaker 2: A couple other myths that we did on an unpack
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  Speaker 2: were that people who are on household just get jobs
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  Speaker 2: and so goals. So if you want to know what
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: the why, that's a myth that unhoused people are dangerous,
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  Speaker 2: violent indoor criminals. Most of the time they are victims,
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  Speaker 2: not necessarily the perpetrator, and that housing your shelter should
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: require continuencies like being clean or you know, clean first
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: or sober first initiatives which don't work. So that's as
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: far as we got as far as our first myths.
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  Speaker 2: But today we have several other myths unpack. We are
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: going to talk about some solutions and some current research
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: as well to really dive into this further and make
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: sure that we give it the wide berth that it
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: deserves as far as the discussion goes.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we did. So those eight total myths, we did
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: four of them last time. So we're halfway through. So
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: we're picking up on myth number five. All right, So
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  Speaker 1: is there anything else before we jump into our like
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: we're finally there?
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: No, I think I think that's it.
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  Speaker 1: Great, all right, So myth five, there's nothing a single
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: person can do about houselessness. There are actually plenty of
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: things that people can do, offering care kits, donating to organizations, volunteering.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: There are ways that you can help support unhoused populations
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: that don't necessarily require money directly. That could be a
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: thing that you choose to do, but even volunteering in
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: places that provide support to unhoused people can be something
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: that helps and eventually helps get them into some permanent
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: housing as well.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Right, And so you might have heard the phrase like
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: you just mentioned care kits, and people don't really know
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: what that includes. And a lot of times what it
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: might include are simple amenities, right. So it might include
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: a clean socks and some types of clothing that could
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: keep people's appendages warm, so like socks, hats, gloves, something
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: along those lines. It might include maybe some processed snacks
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: or food items that that people can carry on for
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a long period of time, they can kind of keep
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: in store if they need those. It can include hygiene
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: products like dental care products. It can include sunscreen, It
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: can include a lot of different things like that. So
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: care kits can vary depending on where you live, but
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: you can actually to get some for pretty cheap. As
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: a matter of fact, I'm on a page right now
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: where you can buy a carekit that includes a like
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: a beanie type hat, three pairs of socks, a toothbrush,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: toothpaste kit, and a couple snacks for like three bucks.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: So they don't have to be very expensive, and they
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: could be regionally specific, like in Florida, we would probably
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: include sunscreen, right, because that is something that is a
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: significant concern here.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just thinking, like, there are definitely lots
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: of places where it would be relevant to have stuff
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: to keep you warm, But they also really struggle in
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: the summer when it's just unbearably hot. So having something
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: to help protect you from the sun or protect your
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: skin I think would be particularly relevant in different types
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: of year and in different sort of geographical locations, like
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: as you said, in Florida's that's a really really good
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: call there.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Right, Let's unpack mid six for a second. So mid
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: six is people who are on housed are transient drifters
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: and have been doing this for a long time. So
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: that's not at all true. As a matter of fact.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, eighty three percent of unhoused people in
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Seattle were consistent residents of the area, not drifters arriving
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: in the city, not people who just showed up like it.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: There are people who had lived in the city and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: had stayed there for some period of time. Another study
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: showed that in twenty nineteen in La sixty eight percent
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: of the unhoused people in that population had lived there
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: for over twenty years. So there is a big misconception
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: that unhoused folks are just showing up out of the
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: woodwork and traveling into town, and that's not at all
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: the case. And to the other point in this myth
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: where it says that you know, maybe people have been
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: doing this or been in houseless or homeless for a
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: long time, they've been transient for a long time, that's
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: not actually the case either. About eighteen percent of the
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: homeless or houseless population, the unhoused population are chronically unhoused.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: So most of the folks that are currently unhoused are
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: residents of that town who have been residents of that
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: town for a long period of time, and they are
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: only recently unhoused. The these are new developments for that
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: person in a lot of different situations. At least eighty
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: percent of the folks that are in house, that's a
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: new development for them.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: And I did see that, like the term chronically unhoused
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: was specifically people where it had been like three years
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: or more, and that most people, even like a extended
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: period of time is a year, So for a lot
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: of these people, it's a brief period of time that
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: they spend in this state. And you know, that's good
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: in a sense, So like it's great that people sort
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: of enter that that system, if you will, and then
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: leave it, hopefully fairly rapidly. But then the other consideration that,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: as you mentioned, for a long time, houselessness had been
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: decreasing and now it is increasing again. Right, absolutely, well,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: we only made it two myths in, but we were
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: already way past the point at which we need to
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: let the people who are partially responsible for houselessness get
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: a piece of the pie again. And that's advertisers, right,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: We're back after having apparently blamed the people who gave
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: us money for being responsible for people that unhusked. Oops. Oops,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: let's get into myth number seven. All right, So unhoused
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: people are either addicts or they are suffering from some
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: mental health condition. What's actually going on here? This? God,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: this is a good one to talk about. The relationship
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: between being unhoused and having an addiction or untreated mental
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: health condition is just it's very complex and I think
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: very overestimated. Seventy four percent of people believe that either
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: generates houselessness, but about twenty one percent of unhoused folks
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: studied reported severe untreated mental health as a contributing factor
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to their houselessness, and only about fifteen percent reported substance
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: abuse disorders as a contributing factor. I think the problem
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: here too is the cause effect relationship that like people
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: see it as you've got this problem, so you end
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: up on the streets, and it's actually more like you
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: end up on the streets, and after having had that experience,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: you maybe start to develop some of these problems. So
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: the trauma, the lack of security, the lack of support,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the lack of just shelter in general that can exist
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: for people who are unhoused can lead to and exacerbate problems.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: So problems that didn't exist can start to exist, or
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: problems that did exist can be made worse, and people
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: might turn to substances because they end up on the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: streets and then they end up then starting to develop
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: an addiction to those things. So that I think is
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the important thing to really understand here is that it's
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: actually kind of a reverse cause effect in the way
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people imagine are the
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: sort of direction that it goes, right.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I think maybe part of and this is going to
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: be a little bit of armchair psychology on this too,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: but like I think that what ends up happening is
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: people assume that because if somebody is unhoused, there must
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: be a problem, right, and they must assume that that
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: problem is out of that person's control. So they assume
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: that it is either, you know, some addiction gone wild
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: or some type of mental health consideration that was never
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: treated or anything like that, and so they have to
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: they kind of say, like, well, it must be this.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: There's no reason somebody would actually choose to be unhoused
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: or something along those lines. Like they kind of have
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: those conversations. And the truth is is that's actually a
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: pretty rare I don't want to say rare, but it's
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: a pretty uncommon circumstance for the majority of people. It
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: is just bad circumstance. It is again, I think goes
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: back to landlords and how landlords have kind of like
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: gained the system to make it really difficult to be
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: able to rent. And so it's a complex, a vastly
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: complex network of variables that lead to this. But one
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: of the factors, but a minimal factor in this, is
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: mental health and addictions.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not to say that it
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: never happens that way. It certainly can. But I think
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: the idea that people have is that that usually is
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: why it happens, and it's actually the oppo. It's not
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: usually why it happens, although it is sometimes a factor
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: or maybe even the driving factor, but the most of
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: the time it seems like it is not. Although those
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: as we said, those issues can can develop as an
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: outcome of ending up there.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, like somebody may not have that issue,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: but like it may accelerate as a result of being unhoused.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Like that can certainly happen, all right, And the last
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: myth we're going to unpack is that a lot of
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: people think that being unhoused is a choice, and the
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: truth is is that the vast majority of unhoused folks
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: are not unhoused by choice. Folks are actively seeking employment,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: they're seeking shelter, and many instances shelters can be unsafe
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: or overcrowded for lots of different reasons. And maybe one
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: day we'll unpack shelters. It's like a separate episode because
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I feel like that is there's a lot to unpack
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: there with sure, you know, funding and organization and you
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: know legislation around it. Yeah, And this actually leads it
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: to another conversation, which is there is a part of
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: being unhoused and being able to access shelters is this
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: treatment first or sober first approach. And basically what the
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of places will do is they'll do something
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: like a medication adherence program, a sobriety program, mental health treatment,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: something like that. And what they find is that those
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: programs are often too strict or too cumbersome to actually
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: adhere to given the other stressors the person has, and
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: they're likely to negatively affect unhoused folks. It's actually sometimes
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: a lot easier to be able to stay out of
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: a shelter and survive and manage than it is to
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: be in a shelter and follow the rigorous guidelines and
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: rules that go along with treatment first or sober first programs.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think like it's it's part of
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: the conversation we had last time, and it's worth reiterating
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: again here even if you heard it last time, is
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: that it is complicated and it is nuanced, and for
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: some people, probably getting treatment for like addiction will be
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: necessary for them to be able to succeed in a
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: housing placement, but for a lot of people it won't.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: So it's like it just needs to be better individualized
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: to the circumstances that are relevant for each individual. Because
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: even there were some news segments recently where they were
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: interviewing people who were unhoused and essentially like in these
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: places where they had these housing first initiatives. While there
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: were a lot of success stories from that matter of fact,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: more than not there were instances where because it took
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: this one size fits all approach, there were instances in
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: which it kind of failed, like it didn't work the
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: way that it was supposed to and didn't have the
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: outcome it was supposed to. But I also want to
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: come back to hear this idea that people are unhoused
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: by choice, and I've heard people sort of say like, well,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: if you give them shelter and you give them support,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: you're just reinforcing their decision to live on the street.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: And that just brings me back around to the conversation
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: you know, we had last time where I was sort
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: of and I think I've I've pointed this out where
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you think that the people who are on
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the street, if we took away shelters, we took away
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: support programs, they'd be like, well, I guess I can't
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: live here anymore, better just go get a job, Like
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: nobody's doing that, nobody like. There are a lot of
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: different exceptions for a lot of different things we've talked about,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: where like it's this proportion or that proportion zero people
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: are staying on the street by choice because they have
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: support programs, Like that is that is asinine logic. The
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: point is like taking away those programs just makes their
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: life less likely to continue and makes it a lot harder,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Whereas by implementing these types of programs, we make it
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: more likely that they can actually get themselves out of
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: that situation and back into a more stable, more successful situation.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of things that we need to
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: talk about in terms of things we can implement to
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: further aid programs to help resolve this issue of so
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: many people being unhoused. And I do want to further
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: ad like, there are actually some people who choose not
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: to live in houses, right who like they want to
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: sort of be There's gonna be people who like they
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: want to be out in nature, they want to be
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: out and away from people. They might live in an RV,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: they might live in a tent, and that they actually
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: did that because they did want to have that lifestyle.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: So there are going to be some of those people
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: who are there by choice, but like they kind of
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: knew what they were getting into and they were thrust
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: into that situation, right, And again, it's it's part of
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: why thinking about this as being unhoused and whether or
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: not that also means unsheltered is important for nuance here.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: So like, there are going to be some people who
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: make this choice. It's such a small percentage that is
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: probably barely even would be count you know, it's like
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent of people. That's not the
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: case for right, but like it could be the case.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I think you've touched on a great point, which is
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: this idea that folks should be punished for struggles. Like
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: we hear this a lot. When we hear this with oh, well,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: you know, this person shouldn't receive their Social Security or
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: their door or you know, food stamps or like any
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: sort of like government assistance if they're on drugs. It's like, okay,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: so that will probably make it better. Right, Like, this
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: person's already struggling with substance addiction issues and substance abuse issues.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Let's go in and take away their food I'm sure
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: that's going to stop them from doing crime or like
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: making things worse. I'm sure that's going to make it
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: a lot easier for them to get sober, get the
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: help they need. And like, it's just such a bullsh
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and backwards way of looking at helping people, which is like, okay,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: well let's take away basic needs and make this situation
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: that's already difficult harder on this person.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: And we'll make them succeed.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: It's the it's the pull themselves up by their bootstraps
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: type of thing. And it's like that everybody forgets that
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: was a satirical phrase and people take it to heart right,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: like it's it's so I just I struggle with that
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: idea too, of like when when there are so many,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: so many policies, so much litigation, so much legislation that's
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: passed that is very much so, oh, well, if you
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: don't do what we tell you to do in this
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: exact instance, we're gonna make your life harder so that
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you can make your own life better. Yeah, and that
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: just doesn't make any sense.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, people talk about like the carrot and the stick approach,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and their solution a lot of time is just always
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: it's always stick, it's always punishment, it's always like do
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: what you ought to or else. Right, And again, like,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: these are not people who are making a choice to
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: live unhoused as some kind of political stand or something
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: or because like they felt like they were too good
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: for their home and so they like, rather like that's
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: just such a backwards, ridiculous way of even thinking about it,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Like that's not the case. Like spend two seconds thinking
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: about this. That's not the case, right, and so yeah,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: thinking about this instead of like and I know people
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: might even hear coming from two people who are behavior
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: analysts and be like, wow, I thought you were all
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: about contingencies. And the thing is like, we don't make
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: basic necessities dependent on some type of performance, right, talking
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: about like access to privileges that and a privilege is
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: above and beyond what you need to be survive and successful.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Like I'm not gonna withhold food from someone who can't
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: otherwise get food. If I were working with someone who
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: wanted to change their behavior and they were really motivated
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: for like a particular snack that could be withheld and
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: earned because they don't need that to stay alive. But
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna starve someone you know who, because like
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I can better manipulate their behavior by withholding something that
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: they need to survive, because just as you said, doing
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: that comes with so many problems, and one of them
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: is like it motivates crime. If they can't get it
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: because it's being withheld from them and they need it
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: to survive, they will find a way and it will
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: be dangerous and it will be problematic. Right, So it's like,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: those are not the things that we that we hold hostage. Unfortunately,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: we do a hold our audience hostage to ad ads,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't say we hold them hostage. The advertisers is
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: hold them hostage. We just we relinquish them. Yeah, accomplices?
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Are we accomplices?
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I guess so? Darn it, let's throw us under the
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: bus suck.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, man, we gotta do better.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: All right? Well, uh that was our second ad break.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I think, so we're do you feel like we have
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: it adequately sort of addressed the final myth here of
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: being unhoused as a choice.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I feel I feel like, you know,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's I think this goes back to
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the conversation that like what we're talking about is vastly
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: complex and there are a lot of myths, but I
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: think that those inside of those discussions around those myths,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of complexity, and there is like maybe
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a little bit or some truth to the situations that
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: we're talking about, but not as often as people think.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: And so I think we just wanted to kind of
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: pay in a better reality of what might be going
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: on with these folks.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a quick way I was just it
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: sort of occurred to me just now how I might
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: summarize that last point I think with respect to holding
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: contingent access to things is that things that are necessary
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: for survival, those everyone deserves to.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Have, right, But and to be clear, everyone, every everyone.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Every human being deserves to be able to survive. Now,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: privileges that are luxuries, Those can be things that are
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: made dependent and that would make sense that like those
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: are earned, but you you should not have to earn
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the right to survive. That is granted as a given
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: because we take care of each other because we're human beings. Right,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: nailed it all, right, So how do we solve this
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: houselessness thing that's going on? Ah?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, We've got so many ways to solve this. I
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: think one of the ways that we do is or
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: that we can consider. And I want to be clear,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: this is not going to solve every single problem. This
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: is not going to resolve every solution. But there are
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: a couple things that we can do as a society
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: that might help to improve the state of houses is
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: across the board, and one of them is tiny house
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: communities or tiny home communities. And you might be going, well,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: that's that's ridiculous, but hear me out. Okay, First, the
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: average cost of a tiny home can be as little
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: as four thousand dollars. Now I want to be saying
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I want to say this because I know that sounds
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: like well, that sounds like privilege. And sure, if I
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: have four thousand dollars to spend on a tiny home,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: then that is a privilege that I have that money
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: to be able to spend. I'm talking about this from
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: like a community level, right we talk about shelters and
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: the cost of the community. The community at large may
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: only have to pay four thousand dollars to set up
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: a tiny home that has all the amenities where the
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: person can sleep, they can store clothing, they can prepare food,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: they can shower, and that gives somebody a baseline to
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: be able to do the other things that we're talking about,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: which is to get gainful employment, to be able to
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: save up some money, to be able to find a
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: place that is a more permanent place for them. These
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: communities are sustainable, they're cost effective compared to traditional housing,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: and we can set it up in a space where
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: there are like you can have more people in the
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: same space if you will, like you can have like
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of tiny homes the same property and have
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: like a small community in that space as well.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that and this goes to broadly
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: the consideration that the primary issue here is that these
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: people lack a place that they can go for shelter
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: and safety that is like their place, like right, they
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: don't have a place that they can be in. And
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: so if we think about how do we lower the
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: barrier of entry such that they can have a place
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: to be in. Some of those solutions are like building shelters,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: building places that are intended to be sort of temporary homes,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and whatnot, building more of these tiny houses like and
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: then making them affordable, if not honestly free. I really
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: think like we have the resources and the means that
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: if we accept the idea that no one should be
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: unhoused if they don't choose to be, then like we
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: have the resources and means to make that happen. Right,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: And again, like this solves so many more problems than
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: it creates. Like I think there are going to be
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: things that are created from this, which is that like
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: people who are facing substance abuse disorders, Like if we
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: just give them a place where they can like go
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: do that without also addressing their their addictions, then like
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: that could turn out badly and it might be that,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: like they end up dying and not even being found
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: for a really long time, which ironically is already the case.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Not ironically, but that is already kind of the case.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: But that could make it easier for them to do
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: that in hiding or potentially expire in that situation. So
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I do think it's nuanced and it's not the like
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: shotgun approach this will fix everything, But just considering, like
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: removing the barrier to entry is a necessary step, right, absolutely,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: all right, It's also like consider the fact that as
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: part of this lowering barrier to entry thing, is we
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: can just use things that we already have, Like we
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: actually have a lot of buildings that aren't being used
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: for anything. If you look around any city, you will
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: find large structures that are not being used for anything.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: They're just sitting there taking up space.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so this might be warehouses, this could be
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: office buildings, this could be hotels.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: There's a casino here in Reno for a long time
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: that was just sitting there vacant, That's what I'm saying.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: So like, this is going to be a conversation that
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I think people will say, Well, who's going to pay
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: for the renovations, who's gonna pay for bringing the building
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: up to code, who's going to be That's a conversation
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: that we need to have as a values conversation, like
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: do we value housing unhoused people who are unhoused by choice?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Do we value our community? Do we value supporting people.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: That's going to ultimately be a valued conversation that leads
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: to are we willing to spend our money on this
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: type of stuff? And that goes back to the quote
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: at the beginning of the first episode about we can
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: we can pay for golf resorts, but you know, do
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: we want to house on house people? Right?
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you said unhoused by choice. I
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: think you meant not by choice, not by choice.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: That's what I meant. Sorry, yes, by not by choice.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to share a brief example of this
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: in Jacksonville, Florida. If you're familiar with Jacksonville, the city
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: is huge, like it is a large expansive city. There's
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of land. Almost all of Duval County is
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, is is just Jacksonville the city.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: So the county is the city. There's there's a lot
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: of warehouses, there's a lot of buildings that have been
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: closed down because there maybe the business moved somewhere. And
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: so for a period of time, Jacksonville worked with a
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: large interdisciplinary group which included some behavior analysts, and they
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: developed these buildings. They worked with these programs. They developed
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: these buildings that included housing, that included treatment, programs, that
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: included substance abuse programs, that included all of these things,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: and they were able to resolve quite a bit of
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: the unhoused population situation in Jacksonville through these programs. I
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: believe there were three specific sites, and each site was
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: able to house at least one hundred and fifty people,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: all of which received food shelter treatment, and it was successful.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: The recidivism rates were so low that they talked about
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: replicating this in other major cities, because I forget exactly
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: what the recidivism rates were, but they were significantly low,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: and it was just a matter of enriching their environment
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: and giving them a place to live and then helping
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: them with other services like The services included the substance
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: abuse programs, mental health programs, but also included job support
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: job aid. It included working with local businesses that would
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: that had openings and would hire people. It wasn't just
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: teaching them job skills like writing resumes and doing interview skills.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: It was also teaching them like where to look, and
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: it was working with those local businesses to hire folks
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: out of this program. And it was incredibly successful.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah wow, and in Florida of all places, of all places,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: like really impressive. I would love to see that repl
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: located in all over the country. Really, that is exactly
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: the kind of cohesive, comprehensive, systematic approach that is needed.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I think to help address this issue more broadly in
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: a way that I think would catch like ninety percent
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: of people. Would be my thought like, and I think
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: we need to do more to like catch the remaining percent,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: but I'd be willing to get to bet that this
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: addresses like ninety percent of it.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And what they did was they converted like old
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: warehouses into like apartment buildings almost like they it was
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: like you know, and they were it was temporary shelter,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: but it was it was sufficient enough that it helped
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a significant amount of people.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and that goes back to the lowering the
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: barrier of entry of just like just creating the space
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: for this so that there is a place where needed. Yeah,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: that is all it takes, all right. Another thing here
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: is to get stayed in local leaders to commit to
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: policy change. So as we're talking about these ways that
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: we can sort of address and help solve the issues
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: in crisis that can occur around how uselessness and that
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: currently is happening, is that just we elect and we
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: choose leaders who are committed to making a change for this,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: but specifically that this includes improvements in budgeting toward houselessness
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: programs and reform to renters' rights and things that protect
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: rent price gouging and that sort of thing. People who
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: look at this issue through the lens of empathy, curiosity, humanism,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: the people who are like, I think it's perfectly appropriate
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: to ensure that we are very budget conscious about like
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: how much and to what extent we're allocating funds toward this. Yeah,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: and also consider that, as we mentioned, as you just
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: talked about that quote, like, we are also spending a
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: ton of money on stuff that their luxuries that we
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: could instead be building things that help people who are
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: desperately trying to survive and maybe go without that luxury
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: for a little bit longer. And that I think is
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable way to allocate that. But yes, we elect
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: and try and get leaders who are actively working towards
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: solutions for this problem that are not like let's punish
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: these people who are already down type solutions, right, actual
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: solutions where we address the issue at a systemic level.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now, another thing that we can do is we
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: can identify and assess current the current problem locally and
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: whether we because basically what we have to do is
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: we have to be able to decide or describe whether
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: or not the problem is an acute problem or a
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: chronic problem. So do we know that maybe there is
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: a sudden burst in housesness because of a natural disaster.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Do we know that this is a chronic issue because
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: rent and prices for homes is not affordable in a
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: certain area. We don't really know that in a lot
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: of places. We don't know why what the cause of
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: housesness is in certain areas. So one thing that we
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: can start doing is something as simple as let's actually
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: identify and assess the cause or the problem in a
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: specific area. Given that we already know that most of
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: the people that are unhoused in a particular area are
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: residents of that area, we already are doing studies on
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: job availability, on employment, We're already doing those types of assessments.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: So there's no reason that we can't allocate a little
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: bit of money towards understanding the actual houses as problem
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: in a particular area.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Once again, the solution, the right answer to any problem
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: is due science.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible, incredible.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: The wrong answer is advertising. Okay, we have one more
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: I think consideration here in terms of possible solutions things
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: to consider when we're taking this comprehensive view of how
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: to address the issue of houselessness. One of these I
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: think is really important. I think we mentioned this in
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: the last episode and honestly probably deserves a full length
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: episode discussion. Is this idea of hostile architecture and we
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: specifically need to advocate against and remove hostile architecture, And
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: it's kind of what it sounds like. The idea of
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: hostile architecture is that it is it is strategically created
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: and design to limit certain behaviors and public spaces. And
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: there are certain behaviors that we don't want in public spaces.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Firing a gun, sure, probably doing like bodily fluids, things
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: like urinating, yeah, smoking, So like there are lots of
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: things that we Littering is another one that we do
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: want to limit. But like in hostile architecture, we're specifically
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: talking about like mostly people just doing people things right.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Some examples include benches where there's armrests that are placed
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the bench that prevents sleeping on
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: that bench. Yep, Like somebody can't lay down on the bench.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Like small concrete pyramids. You might see these every now
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: and again. You might see these in like open concrete
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: spaces where it prevents people from being able to lie
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: down or travel safely or anything like that. You might
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: see metal spikes on stoops where you know, where people
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: can't actually lay down on a stoop or like a
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: window or something like that. Now, just to be clear,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: hostile architecture was originally not Originally it is often described
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: as a deterrent for skateboarding, the overuse of trash receptacles
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: so people can't just continue to stuff trash into it,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: pest control, public urination, and stuff like that. But ultimately
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: what ends up happening is hostile architecture has a particular
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: bias against unhoused folks and makes it so that people
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: can't stay in certain places, they can't be comfortable in
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: certain places, they can't sleep in certain places, they can't
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: live in certain places, and so so this type of
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: architecture is just like a prevention measure. Like and you
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: might be going like, maybe I've seen this, maybe I haven't.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I'll give you a couple examples that you think of
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: that are like design examples. One is, if you ever
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: are walking down a staircase in a major city and
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: you notice there are like brackets or like bumps or
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: like welded like nodules on a railing. That's to prevent
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: skateboarders from grinding on the rails. Right, if you ever
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: see if you ever go to a place and you
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: see what looks like why sticking up like wild hairs
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: growing out of a ledge that prevents birds from landing
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: on that ledge in some spaces, that is also an
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: example of hostile architecture. So that's that's one example for
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: pest control in that situation. Yeah, but yeah, we probably
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: need to do a whole episode on this because it
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: just it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Just mean, Yeah, the when you see those like any
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: kind of concrete sort of I don't know what to
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: call them, they're they're like usually a foot high, they
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: usually right up against a sidewalk, and it's just sort
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: of like a retaining wall, like a concrete retaining wall. Yeah,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: and there's these metal studs every few feet on that
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: that that is specifically to prevent skateboarding, but conveniently makes
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: it difficult to sit on that for anybody, like you know,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: people who are unhoused or even just pedestrians, right, And
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: so yes, they are specifically designed, as we describe, just
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: to limit and prevent certain behaviors that are sort of undesirable.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And again, there are some behaviors that are undesirable in
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: those spaces, right, but the thing is like, again, it's
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: unnecessary to targe get and bias toward people who are unhoused,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: who will just need somewhere to be right, And they're like,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: you can be anywhere but here, and that's like a
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: sign they see everywhere. I'm like, well, right, anyway, here
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: is everywhere, and everywhere is here, so like now what right,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Like I do kind of get in a sense of
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: the skateboarding thing, where it's like that could be dangerous
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: if it's like a super public place and if there
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: were people who were trying to skateboard around. I mean,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I think those other ways around it than just making
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: hostile architecture. But I think you take the look at
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: the example of the benches with the armrest in the middle,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: and like nobody's asking for that. That justs so that
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: someone can't lay there, right, that's its only real reason
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: to be there. So anyway, a lot of these are
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: sneaky too. There's a bunch of them.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many. There's so many, Yeah that we'll
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: just do an episode on it.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take into some research on this.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: We're actually talking about unhoused stuff. Hostile architecture is interesting
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: but unhoused stuff.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Conferness and colleagues in twenty thirteen. What they
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: did was they use monetary incentives to increase engagement and
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: job skills for unemployed, unhoused, and alcohol dependent adults. Important
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: to note this required participants to engage in the program
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: and incentives were based on attendance and abstinence from alcohol.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: And this did have a large effect overall. It wasn't
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: perfect for everybody, but this did improve some engagement in
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: these job participation skills. Now, again, I think it's really
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: important to remember that, and when you read the study,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: you realize, like, oh, we're targeting unemployed, unhoused, and substance
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: abuse related concerns inside of that. So we're using one
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: intervention to target three different issues that might be going
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: on here, and that makes it a little bit more
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: complicated and kind of yeah, there might be some compounds there,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: but like, I think it's really important to remember this
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: is focusing on unemployed folks who are unhoused, and we
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: know that the majority of folks that are unhoused are
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: not necessarily unemployed.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah they could, Yeah, it's just rent prices are out
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: of control, right, Silvermen and colleagues in twenty eighteen created
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: something called the Therapeutic Workplace. This is my official title voice,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and this was explicitly designed to treat drug addiction, and
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: it was aimed at being an anti poverty program. And
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: so in this participants received job training, but because this
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: had this a drug addiction piece, they were also required
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: to demonstrate abstinence and medication adherence. This was focused on
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: reducing poverty, not houselessness per se, but there was a
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: side effect of the program that did reduce houselessness among
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: some participants.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Right, So basically what they were doing was it was
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: a treatment program where they were treating substance abuse issues,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: that was part of it, but they were trying to
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: reduce poverty. They were trying to get people to access
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: more currency, more more gainful employment, and as a result,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: houses this decrease. So it's possible in this situation where
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: we can make the argument that housesness is maybe a
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: symptom of other things, saying we've kind of been making
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: that argument the entire time, but yeah, all right. Bodly
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Scott and colleagues in twenty twenty four reviewed global studies
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: about housness and found that psychological interventions can be helpful
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: and addressing related concerns and substance abuse, mental health, well being,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: anti social behavior, and social outcomes. They found that CBT
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: and motivational and interviewing seemed to be helpful to address
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: those factors as they were directly related to houselesness. But
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: there's nothing here that kind of aimed at at specifically
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: reducing houselessness. It was reducing the factors that were related
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: to houslesness and seeing some of the outcomes related to that.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: I can see that idea, right, And again, I think
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: all of this it seems like is part of the package.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And it feels like just as you sort of describe
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: this program in Jacksonville, it needs to be comprehensive, Like
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: you need an assessment piece, You need to figure out
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: what the issues are. You need to have appropriate incentives
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: and structure in place to like facilitate people getting access
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to the resources they need. We need something to address
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: the issues that are resulting in people ending up on
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: the street in the first place, such as like completely
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: out of the control rent price gouging. Right, we need
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: access to like resources that people need, like food and
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: shelter that are just available to people, Like, there's so
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: many pieces of this that would include some things that
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: are dependent on certain behaviors, are not dependent on certain
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: other behaviors that address things at an individual level, while
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: also consider addressing like the systemic broad societal changes that
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: would need to occur. It's going to be a lot,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Like it is a big complex nut to crack, Yeah,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: but like it's just so worth it. It's so worth it.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: If you're someone who just doesn't like seeing people out
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: living on the streets and that just you bothered you
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: because you feel like it looks bad or because you
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: don't like them, or whatever the issue is, Like it
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: works in your favor. Have this be addressed systematically and
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: in a way that is empathetic. For the people who
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: care about other human beings, it works in their favor
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: because they get to see people thrive and succeed or
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: at the very least suffer less than they were suffering before.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: It definitely works for the people who are victims of
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a system where they did not do anything wrong, but
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: they ended up in this situation anyway. And so like
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: this is a win win when when when win win
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: win situation where everybody wins if we just collectively decide
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: to make it a priority and allocate the resources to
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: that that we are currently spending on things that are
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: less important.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: I think you nailed it. When I hear these types
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: of issues and I hear these types of circumstances come up,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: it makes me think of the general perspective that there's
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: a personal responsibility to address these issues, right like you're
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: homeless or your houseless because of your or curse, your choices,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: your behavior, and it's your personal responsibility to get out
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: of it. And I think that every time I see
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: a study, and in the studies that we just mentioned,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: every time they're talking about these different types of challenges
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: or variables that people experience inside of the houses of space.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: But what it doesn't do is it doesn't talk about
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: the systemic issues that might have led there. And so
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: often do they put the onus back on the unhoused
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: person and not the system at large. And I think
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: that's something that I like that That's a big takeaway
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: that I want to make sure that I'm clear about
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: is that I think if we shift the perspective a
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: little bit from personal responsibility to systemic change, I bet
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: we could probably resolve a majority of these concerns.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. And
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: there are other people who think somewhat similar things. Because
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: there are some books that you can read to learn
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: more about this topic. I don't think I have read
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: any of these. They're now on my list and I
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: definitely should. The first one here, Evicted by Matthew Desmond.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Have you read all these?
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: No? I haven't read these, but they came well recommended
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: from a lot of the resources that we Yeah, they
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: came as like forward thinking scientists, like science based, data
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: driven discussions around around this topic.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: So okay, I'm the title is very intriguing Evicted.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah. There's also When We Walk By by Kevin
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Adler and Donald Burns, and The Invisible Child, Poverty, Survival
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: and Hope in an American City by Andrea Elliott.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Got a lot of those colons in there. Similarly, Invisible
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Americans Colon The Tragic Cost of Child Poverty and this
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: is by Jeff Madrick.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, and then there's also No Way Home colon.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Spider Man story.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Yep, so it's No Way Home colan The Crisis of
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Homelessness and how to Fix It with Intelligence and Humanity
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: by Kerrie Jackson, Christopher Ruffo, Joseph Tartakowski, and Wayne Wingarten.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Nice. All right, Another sort of fun interesting point here
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: that we sort of mentioned is this thing called hobo glyphs.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: This might be worth a mini all into itself. This
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: is a collection of symbols used by American unhoused people
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: to communicate with other communities and like other unhoused people. Yes,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: these symbols can be harkened back to Depression era unhoused
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: communities when there was a lot of that going on.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: They range from like what they communicate, but they might
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: indicate like danger, keep quiet, authorities on alert, kind people
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: live here, et cetera. It's sort of to let other
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: people who are who find their way to that place know,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: like this is a safe space or it's not, and
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: specifically what we mean by that. Yeah, but they use
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: these sort of esoteric symbols that don't give away what
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: they're communicating, but they give enough information that people who
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: know know.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's really fascinating. I mean, some of them
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: they just look like some of them are like diamonds
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: and just in lines and squiggles and all kinds of stuff.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: But they are incredibly impactful, like they do make the
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: difference between somebody who remain safe in a space versus
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: somebody who doesn't. You know.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, that is I think what we have
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: to say about houselessness for part due. Is there anything
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: else that we forgot you'd like to add before we
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: get to our credits and recommendations.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Do something? I like, yeah, just do something anything, make
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: care kids, send care kits to somebody, work in a kitchen,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: work in a shelter, do something, Talk to your legislators,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: do something, because this is something that you know deserves
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: a lot more attention than it gets.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: And if you got a buck or a couple of
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: bucks on hand, like just giving them that can help too.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Like that if you see someone who's like there who
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: is asking for money, you know, a few bucks, like
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: they can use that to buy a meal. Sometimes they
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: can get enough that they can pay for shelter for
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: the night. They can potentially, you know, get some medicine
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: that they needed. Whatever. So like I like to personally
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: just give them money because I don't know what that
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: person necessarily needs and they do. And my thought thinking too,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: is like even if for them that means buying alcohol
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not that's not my call. Like I'm saying,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to give you resources so you can
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: get what you need for you, Yes, and that way
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: you've got something going forward, because like me, giving food
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: to someone who has enough food is not very helpful
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: use of resources, and they're certainly going to be appreciative,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: But like what they really needed was money to spend
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: on something that they that they need that I didn't
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: know about. Yeah, but like I know that other people
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: feel differently about that. That's fine. But my sort of
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: thing has always been, like, you know, I'm not going
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: to try and police their behavior. If I'm trying to
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: support them in some way, I'm going to let them
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: dictate how what that support looks like. Yeah, by just
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: giving them something easy like cash.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but anyway, one of the best things I heard
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: about that real quick was that like people get real
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: hung up on like giving people money, and it was
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: just like, you don't know what they're going to spend
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the money on. Just you giving them money, is you
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: doing good for that person on some level? So take
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: a step back, get out of your own biases and
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: do good recklessly. Yes, Like at the end of the
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: day you were trying to do something good. Whatever they
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: do with that is their choice, their need, whatever it is.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: But you did the right thing by trying to help somebody,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: and that is what you should focus on. And that
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: is what we need to go back to. It's just
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: doing good recklessly.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Love that. Doing good recklessly the opposite of doing ads intentionally. Okay,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: so we are at the end of this discussion. We
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: are going to recommend some fun things. We're going to
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: recommend some fun things. I can speak words sometimes sometimes,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: but before I do that, I'm going to do a
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: little bit of our credits here, which is that if
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed what you heard today or in the past,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: and you maybe you've been listening for a while or
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: this is your first time, and either way you find
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: yourself thinking, man, I really want this podcast to keep
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: being a podcast and reach further and further. Well, you
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: can support us. Ways that you can do that include
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: picking up some merch at our merch store, leaving us
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: a rating and a review wherever you get this podcast,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: telling a friend, just you know, post about it, talk
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: to someone, share us that gets the word out, and
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: of course you can join us on Patreon, where you'll
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: get extra sort of club member benefits, including early episodes,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and that sort of thing, and
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: also on our full length episodes, I'll read out a
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: list of names of these people who have taken the
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: plunge to help us and we appreciate them so much,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: and that is Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Brian Ashley, and Kiara. Thank you all so much or
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: your continued generosity and support. We really appreciate you.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, y'all are the best.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: In addition, I would like to say that if you
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: would like to tell us your thoughts on anything that
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: we mentioned about homelessness, you can email us directly at
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or you can reach out
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: to us on the social media platforms active of over
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: on Blue Sky. We still have a Facebook account, so
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: you can reach us there. And then, thank you so
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: much to my team of people without whom I could
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: not make this podcast. Writing and fact checkeam from Shane
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: and myself. Particular credit goes to Shane for his great
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: work on the notes for this discussion.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for letting me write some stuff.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for all your work. Thank you
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: to everyone of course who's listening. But that is not
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: a member of the team. I mean they are, You're
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: an uncredited sort of like adjunct if you will. But yeah,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our audio engineer,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: music technician person who does all the good sound stuff
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: is justin Yes, all right, but I think that we
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: are ready to recommend some things.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Recommendations.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I am gonna recommend a movie. I'd seen this come out.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: It came out last year and I was pretty thrilled
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: with it because I enjoyed the show itself and it
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: was just like a really fun movie. And that's the
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: movie Saturday Night Now. This movie is about the very
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: first episode of Saturday Night Live. It is the behind
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: the scenes chaos that was what was going on behind
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: the scenes before the show aired. And the cast is
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: wonderful and it is just completely and utterly chaotic. There
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: are a lot of character actors in it that are
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: playing other characters that are playing skits. There are musicians
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: in it that are really incredible. The way it's edited
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: together is amazing. It feels claustrophobic and chaotic and anxiety filled,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: but like in a way that is it has a
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: really satisfying payoff. I thought it was really great. It
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: was really entertaining, and the whole movie takes place in
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: the hour and a half before the show goes live
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: for the very first time.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I was curious about this movie, but I wasn't sure.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: So here in your recommendation makes me feel like I'm
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: definitely going to check it out now.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: So it's fun. It's fun if you like Saturday Night Live,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: like I mean, even if you don't like Saturday Night Live,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: it's fun to kind of explore the world of entertainment
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: in that way. I guess.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Cool. All right, I'm recommending a board game again, just
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: like the last episode, this board game. There are a
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: series of board games now that are It started with
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: one called Wingspan. This did a lot for board games
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: in the board gaming hobby. It's I guess broadly speaking
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: about birds is the board game which you would not
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: think would be a theme that would work for board games. Sure,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: and for a long time, the idea that you could
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: even make a board game about something like birds did
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: not seem like it was gonna work, And yet it
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: is wildly, wildly successful. But after Finnspan, they came out
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: with worm Span, which is a similar game but about dragons.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: It is it is different enough that is its own game,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: but it's similar enough that if you play the first one,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: then you can understand the second one. And then they
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: came out with Finn Span, which, as you might gas,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: is about fish. Love that this is probably the most
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: streamlined of the three. It has the fewest things you
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: need to sort of keep track of, and yet has
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: a ton of opportunity for strategy and like cool I
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: think complex sort of thinking in terms of how you
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: score points and try and beat your opponents, and I
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: just I think it's really cool. It's got lots of
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: really cool art with images of like real fish that exist,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: and so you get to learn a little bit about
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: fish as you play. But also it's just a really cute,
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: well constructed game that's really fun. So it's in the
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: sort of forty to forty five dollars range, I think,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: and it's called finn Span and it's about fish. So
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: if that's the thing that you're interested in, I will
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: say for people who are very new to gaming, like
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: if the most complex game you've ever played is like Clue,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: then this is probably going to blow your mind. For
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: people who are interested, who are like a little bit
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: more in the hobby and have played more complex games,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: this one's going to feel pretty straightforward and easy cool.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: So yeah, right in the middle there, I love it
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: all right. Well, I think that is what we have
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: to say about board games and movies as well as
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: this will wrap up our discussion about houselessness. So if
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: you we'd be interested to hear from you, as I said,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: you can reach out to us. But I think that's it.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that you'd like to add or anything
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: that I forgot before we wrap this one up?
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: No, I think I feel pretty good about this one.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Cool. Thank you all so much for listening, and we
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: will see you next time. This is Abraham and this
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: is Shane. We're out.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Bye.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do what We Do.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day.