Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Christians React To Russian Invasion Of Ukraine || SLP397

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Christians React To Russian Invasion Of Ukraine || SLP397 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to episode 397 of the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for downloading.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Thomas and I work at Speak Life, and we're going to jump straight into the conversation and I will catch you at the end for some extra discussion with Paul Feesey, who is a co-host of the podcast.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: See you later.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, I'm Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: And Nay Morgan Locke.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, tonight we are talking about events that have unfolded over the last few weeks in the U in Ukraine.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: And for a number of weeks, Russia has been massing military forces along the border of Ukraine.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: But Russian President Vladimir Putin assured Ukraine and other nations they were simply carrying out military exercises.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: However, a few days ago, Russia launched a devastating attack on Ukraine, a democracy of 44 million people, and its forces are now on the outskirts of the capital of Kiev.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Putin has stated that the reason for this is that Russia could not feel safe, develop, and exist because of what he claimed was a constant threat from modern Ukraine.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Claims his goal was to protect people subjected to bullying and genocide and to aim for the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: This has been condemned as Russian propaganda, as Ukraine is a democratically elected government and is even governed by a Jewish president, Vladimir Zelensky, who many of us have probably seen quite a bit of in the last few days.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the Ukrainian people have responded with heavy resistance to the Russian military incursions, and other nations around the world have levelled heavy sanctions against Russia, cutting off its access to financial transactions as well as freezing assets.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And they've also been providing weaponry for the Ukrainians.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've also seen many Ukrainian families attempting to flee the country and begin to flood into other parts of Europe.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it was reported in the last few days that Putin has placed Russian nuclear forces on high alert, something that Western nations have taken quite seriously.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: As Putin had previously said, um whoever tries to hinder hinder us or threaten our country or our people should know that Russia's response will be immediate and will lead you to consequences you have never faced in your history.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been quite a week of events really.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't think any of us Well, I was gonna say I don't think any of us saw this coming, but maybe we did see it coming.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: What do people think?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, the the reaction has been universally kind of one of shock.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: How can this be?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which is often the response of affluent Westerners when when events that would not take anyone else by surprise down through history around, you know, around the world happen.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, it's always the case when the when the bomb goes off in the third world, um, you know what people do.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: People cry, people wail, there's mourning in the streets, when the bomb goes off in the West, what is the look on everyone's face?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's shock.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how can this happen to me?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: How can this happen now?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and tragically, this this is kind of the way things have always been, really.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, Plato and Aristotle would used would would used to talk about just wars, um, but one of the things that you could do in order to wage a just war is if you wanted some more slaves, that was a just cause for war.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: Also, if you liked stuff, if you wanted somebody else's stuff, that could also be a just cause for war.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, Cicero for the Romans, uh again, they had a just war tradition that was sort of pre-Christian.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but again, if you wanted to bring people into the Pax Romana, the peace of Rome, then of course you could go to war and you could civilize the barbarians and bring them because they're idiots, right?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so but you bring them into the civilization of Rome at the point of a sword.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so much of uh Putin's speech last week sort of reminded me of that that kind of just war.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Ukraine, you've always kind of been like one of us, and we're going to make that we're gonna make sure that that happens, you know, at the at the point of a of a gun.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and so it it's a it's a very kind of pre-Christian um idea of a just cause for war that that is to enlarge your borders and bring people into the Pax Romana.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, often Moscow's been called the third Rome, you know, Constantinople was the second Rome, Moscow's the third Rome, and it's kind of this Orthodox Rome, and and Putin speaks in spiritualized language about extending the borders and and and bringing people in.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: So tragically, this is the way you know the world has been, you know, down through the ages.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose most people haven't, when they've thought about this, gone back to the Pax Romana, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Most people are saying, oh, this is like this is like Hitler and the Nazis in the Second World War.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so they've seen that because this is the first time there's been it's very difficult to define what is is this the first time there has been a military conflict in Europe with these groups of countries since the second world war.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Leaving out Yugoslavia and getting about all the others.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: But people are feeling as though this is this is since the end of the Second World War, this is now the first time nuclear powers are in armed conflict and Russia's invasion of And they both have McDonald's and all those sorts of things.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you know they both have dominoes.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: But but a lot of people it brings it closer to home when you see a kind of a column of tanks and behind it there is a dominoes.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and it and it feels like, oh, so war is a thing.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: War is actually a thing.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that takes everybody by surprise.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh outside the church it takes people by surprise.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Inside the church, you get people saying, Oh, because there's wars and rumors of wars, it must be the end times.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: That is precisely the opposite of what Jesus said in Mark 13.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: There will be wars and rumors of wars.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't the end, people.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: But also we are kind of culturally, we are in sort of perpetual shock mode.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean I don't know how you c if you just take it back to 2016, right?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: You do tr Brexit and Trump, these were like, Oh my goodness, can you believe it's happened?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this has happened.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is totally ridiculous and unprecedented.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whoever thought this would happen.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then you get to 2020 and and the pandemic, and now we've got to the point where Russia is invading Ukraine, yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Putin is suggesting that there could be nuclear consequences if NATO countries sort of join in.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it it does feel as though we we've had a series of shocks to the system culturally, uh and yet we still seem surprised in a way.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I should say that as we as we talk about this, uh there's a good crowd of you watching.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's great to have you with us.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Please do let us know your thoughts down in the comments there, um, because we will be kind of monitoring that and we will kind of uh hopefully be able to engage with that as well.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I mean the the issue of kind of how surprised people are, um I think is a bit like you said, it it's it's it's in some ways, I mean I said to you earlier, I didn't feel that surprised by it because uh it it it's I think we've talked so much about kind of um the idea that we've lived in this blip.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think when we're talking about the COVID pan, you know, about the pandemic, we said the the time without suffering and the time of comfort, that is the blip in history.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's it has taken a lot of people by surprise because we've had sort of 75 years of relative peace.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: My generation, you know, I'm 35, so I don't remember the Soviet Union at all, really.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it obviously it was still there, but it was in its crumbling it by then.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: So people of my age and younger probably don't have the idea that just war can just be breaking out at any point.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think it didn't surprise me so much because I guess I've always had this thing in my head that well, of course it could happen.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and you used a good phrase earlier today, Nate, when you said you know, in some sense people thought maybe we've grown out of this.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah the idea that nations would invade other nations for land, we're a bit beyond that now because we're so civilized.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that seems to have been almost kind of Western modern day pride, you know, to think that we're above all these things.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's always been there, and and you see, once once Putin, you know, Putin obviously has decided to do this, just shows you how easy it is for things to change very, very quickly.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we we thought that pestilence was a thing of the past, and we thought that war was a thing of the past.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: We think that famine is a thing of the past, but I I think with energy prices going up and and recession kind of waves of recession are about to hit, I think we're about to see that you know we're living in biblical times.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: We're not living in end times, we're living in biblical times, which is just war, famine, and pestilence are the norm.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, the the bubble has been the the little slice of time that we've lived in.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking today.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking today.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I was born close as close to the election of Adolf Hitler as I am to my own birth.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like we yeah, we we are as close to my birth as my birth was to the election of Adolf Hitler.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um which uh as Christoph Keating has said in the comments, you know, Hitler equals the devil, and World War II is the national religion, so every time we have an enemy, they are the new Hitler.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's the 21st century just war if your enemy is Hitler.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so on on that topic of hit of just war, um people like Augustine started to frame, you know, the the true just causes for war.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you can't just go and nick people's stuff, and you can't just go because you want some slaves, and you can't just go because you want to bring people into the Pax Romana.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um August Augustine, you know, said Um, if your goal is peace, if you don't start it, and if your goal is peace, and if you don't um execute prisoners, um well some of some of the other um uh cool you know um stipulations for it for a just war, then then you can sort of have one.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: What's interesting about uh the just war tradition is it's pretty much you pretty much never had an experience of a just war.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's pretty much never been a war that actually ticks the five boxes that Augustine has.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe World War II is your best shot at it, and yet the bombing of Dresden or or you know dropping of bombs on Nagasaki, I mean, yeah, how do you justify any of any of that kind of stuff?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we we kind of cling on to the just war tradition.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: The only alternative really to the just war tradition.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's one there are two alternatives to the just war tradition.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: One is the Putin route, which is just like um I always kind of liked Ukraine, I wanted it for myself.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's you know, there's there's the realist position where you just go and take stuff because you can.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: But the pacifist position is is a really particularly sort of Christian position.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess the the problem with the the the pacifist position is you then rely on other people to bear the brunt of your scruples.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to defend the country against a Putin who's coming in to, you know, to do evil.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I th I've got I've got all the time in the world for the pacif pacifist position, but I guess at the stage when the tanks are rolling in, you it can be a very principled thing, the the non-violent resistance kind of thing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: But you also rely on other people bearing the brunt of your moral position, which is often that's the that's the tricky part of being the being the pacifist.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's yeah, it's it's it's really tricky.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: But what we've seen in in someone like Zelensky is we've we've seen a kind of a a hero coming to the fore to stand up against an evildoer.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well I was just thinking w I really want to talk about Zelensky.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's been sort of my as for many people this weekend, I think he's been the focus of um you know attention.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But on the pacifist position, do p do people take that like from the you can see how that works at a national level where you sort of go, okay, I I don't believe our country should go to war, and I don't feel that I'm should be forced to you know sort of bear arms in defence of my nation.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But how did how does does the pacifist position work out in sort of smaller spheres?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So like the family, I mean, like after a while you sort of start to think there's pacifism and then there's like a lack of you know, you're not taking your responsibilities.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can you be a pacifist when it comes to the family?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I again I've just done a question out.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because people always bring up, okay, so the bad guy is breaking into your house, there's blood on the doorknob, and he's about to take your wife and kids.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: What do you do?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Be a man and sort of stand up for it.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: I I find it quite humbling to to read the biography of the the autobiography of Stephen Lungu.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: Have you read Out of the Black Shadows?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I read it a long time ago.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: But he was converted uh in was it Uganda?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uganda, I think.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: He goes with a weapon with two bombs to a Christian revival meeting.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Intent meeting, yeah.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: In all for the express purpose of blowing it up, and then he gets converted.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Dang it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: And as he comes forward to give his life to Jesus, he also gives the weapons to the friend, which would have been quite um disturbing, I think.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then you know his life is utterly turned around, um, but you know, the other people in his gangs do not like it.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: And he tells story after story, actually, people coming after him, people coming after his family, and him praying and finding nonviolent ways of resisting evildoers.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that nonviolent tradition, you know, which you know Tolstoy got it from the Sermon on the Mount, who then passed it on to Gandhi and obviously Martin Luther King Jr.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um used nonviolent means, it's not pure non-violence, it is nonviolent resistance.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you still find ways of obstructing your enemy, but you absorb the the blows in whatever way you can.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it's is it's difficult because you know, as you say, there are there are all sorts of really um dicey situations, and just saying pray and the Lord will give you wisdom in that moment sounds unconvincing.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I'd I I I'd recommend people have a look at Stephen Lunger's book.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and the thing I suppose about the reason why pacifism can be considered a Christian position is because in a sense you you can non-violently put yourself in harm's way, be a non-combatant in that sense, but receive you know the the the strikes, the injuries in order to protect and yet still choose not to strike back, and and that feels like a much more of a Sermon on the Mount approach.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas 1 Peter 2, yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna go, you know, and fight because I think it's it's wrong, but obviously everyone else is gonna go and do it.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone else can.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: At which point you get you the hero becomes like the Hacksaw Ridge guy, who who was who was that guy who ends up saving like dozens of people uh by being a stretcher bearer.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: So he was a conscientious objector during World War II, and he ends up putting himself in harm's way and and saves so many lives.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, the conscientious objector who just wants to dodge the draft is not the same thing as the one who becomes the stretcher bearer and puts themselves on the on the line in that in that kind of sense.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's actually quite a strong uh tradition of people doing that.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um so Jay Grass and Machin.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So he went to uh the what would have been um the first world war as a with a YMCA or something like that.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is like whoa, getting there involved.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was a very different organization back as a police.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't so much you know, air-conditioned gyms or anything like that, but went as someone who would go and it didn't want to be involved in carrying weapons and didn't want to be involved in that sort of stuff, but supported um sort of allied troops in France and was doing things like running Bible studies and making hot chocolate and giving out cigarettes and and that sort of stuff, and so there was a sense in which, as a you know, as a Christian, you might not go to take up arms, but you could go and serve in a in a different capacity.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I mean the so the just war tradition though is that Romans 13 the state bears the sword and it bears the sword for a reason, and the state is allowed to have the monopoly of violence, and the state can can force you to do things that private citizens can't force you to do things, and then as state takes on states, then they have the power of the sword, and God has delegated that power of the sword, and so as the states there can be such a thing as war.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um let's go to Vladimir, the other Vladimir.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: The other Vladimir.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Vladimir Zelensky.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was I was fascinated by him when I read the first thing I read that was that he had been an actor who'd been in a TV program in Ukraine called Servant of the People.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: On that show, he had played a history teacher who makes this video sort of having a go at the government, the video goes viral, and this history teacher becomes the president of Ukraine.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: That show is incredibly popular.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Out of the back of it comes Vladimir Zelensky, who, as well as winning Strictly Come Dancing or all all these other things, then himself becomes the president of Ukraine in 2019, I think.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you have this fascinating story of this kind of entertainer who rises to the the highest role in Ukrainian politics, which is in itself, in and of itself, that's a fascinating story, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: We we just find that sort of captivating.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: But not only that, he's then involved in sort of sort of defending Ukraine and is doing so in such a way that he has become the hero of the story at the moment.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before we get into like exactly what it is, why he kind of embodies this kind of archetypal, you know, warrior king kind of thing, it I I totally appreciate, and then there's probably gonna be a backlash if there hasn't already been a backlash against the news about him because it's propaganda and none of these stories are really true, and he didn't say that and he didn't do it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: They'll unearth a tweet from 2009.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But but the issue, the the issue it it seems to me, and there was a great um reporter for the BBC who talked about this over the weekend.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: She said um when it comes to war, there is a narrative.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: There are things that are happening on the ground, the events that are happening, but they're also the symbols.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, those symbols can be so distorted from the actual events that it's propaganda and it bears no relation.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: But uh we should take it very seriously that these stories have symbols, and the symbols really matter, and they become these kind of unifying principles and narratives behind which people can you know, people get behind.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so the idea of a Prime Minister who you know, whatever his story, he's now the guy who's not going to flee when uh sorry, the president, he's gonna say, I'm not gonna flee, US offer him safe safe passage out, and the great line is I don't need a ride, I need ammunition.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which is the like you couldn't write a better Hollywood action.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: They did script it for him, I'm sure of it.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: But even if they did, it's the best line.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're saying I am here to defend this city, defend my people, you will see our faces, not our backs, right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: When you come.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Yes.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Almost whatever else is happening, that the the compelling nature of that narrative is the story.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it is it's we can't resist looking for it, and when we find it, we're all so delighted.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because in a world of such confusion and misinformation and all this sort of stuff, we want the hero.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but at that precisely because of that, I am just so I I I just take everything I see in my Twitter feed with a total punch of salt.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, eve even like you know, the defense secretary was retweeting stuff about Molotov cocktails being thrown at tanks and they were showing video of it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it turns out that was from 2014 in Crimea.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: And just like how because we love the story so much.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and like and how well are Ukraine actually doing, and it's only early days, and in every invasion it takes weeks and weeks before these things happen.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I just and and are we getting excited by war, by truly terrible things.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I c I can tell and I totally uh appreciate the the fear behind the excitement, and it it's almost too powerful a narrative, right?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: That that it makes it entertainment.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And when a situation where you've got entertainment and politics have already combined to put This guy in in the hot seat.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose I'm probably thinking more of it more about the situation from a why do we have a yearning for the hero story that makes us potentially gullible and and you know um opens us up to being manipulated by media but but we want we want this kind of a hero, right?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: We want a he's very relatable, he's approachable.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: You've been on Saturday Night TV, you're everyone's friend, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Anton Deck Is he Ant or Deck with the Well they're so approachable We don't know which is which anyway so we want there's got to be an approachability right that we want our hero to have a shared experience with us and a relatability to us Hebrews too Christ had to be make like his brothers in every way, right?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: We want that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: We also need the the competency and the the ability to get the job done and do um and be an effective person who can do the job, but then we're looking for the character and if there's anything which is gonna communicate a kind of leader that you can get behind, it's the leader who says, We are not going anywhere, we are not gonna roll over, this fight is ours, and we take this on.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think particularly when the West we're so caught in what we will contribute, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: We'll do the sanctions, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's a kind of easy one to do.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to get involved militarily?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We can only now just kind of sit and watch to see whether these guys manage to hold out.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like that's the sort of level we're at, which means that the narrative of it, the entertainment, the story that's being told becomes we're spectators and it's spectacle, and that's what's dangerous about it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think what people love about Zelensky as well is that I mean, I I imagine there's people from all different nations uh who are looking and saying who are seeing the way he's acting and are kind of uh seeing it very positively.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder for us here though, is there's I mean we're looking at this guy who who gets down into the foxhole with you, basically.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's got you know, if we're we're drawing those parallels, he doesn't just you know sit back in the command centre and say, right, you guys sort it out, or you know, here's a few bits to help you, he's down there and thing.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's that it's that picture of what it means to be a leader who is actually serving potentially.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you said very aptly um a few days ago when we were saying we probably need to talk about this, you said he may well be dead by the time we come on air, you know.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's that is the case, isn't it?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: That he's actually putting himself in the position where he could die.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I wonder whether it resonates as so much for us as well, because um because for so long it feels like we haven't seen that kind of leadership in our own circles.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: But what's so s kind of dramatic about this is that you have Putin who we have watched for a decade or more put out photograph after photograph of himself either winning judo competitions or riding a horse topless.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this is a David and Goliath situation and the David guy we most of us have never heard of, right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if I you'd ask people most people who is the president of Ukraine, they're no idea, and they would have known Putin and they would have seen Putin, oh, he's this big, strong kind of leader, he's militaristic, and he's kind of gets involved.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: But but how does Putin look at the moment?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you just look at the visuals, you see a man sitting fifty feet away from anyone he's having a conversation with.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: He's like Howard Hughes, just kind of like just retreating into himself.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's so theatrical, but it's it's exactly the So he wants to pro project the strongman thing, but Zelensky, in terms of showing off as a strongman, he's winning hands down because this is the guy who apparently says I don't need a ride, I need ammunition.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I do believe he said that.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I and that's that's what's so like and the frustration.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean then maybe this is all projecting, the whole thing's just uh uh kind of running um confusion on everything.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you can imagine the frustration as Putin wants to be seen in the way that Zelensky is being seen.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, everyone, every world leader wants the numbers that you know Zelensky is running in terms of Well, do but but when the US say we will airlift you out, how many want to say, I don't need a ride, just give me ammunition?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like on the one hand, yeah, I want to be Zelensky.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Do I want to be the c do I want to bear the cost of being Zelensky?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I wan I wonder, maybe we'll return to this when when it gets closer to Palm Sunday.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because the there's a twist in the tale for for the Christ story.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely hailed by the crowds.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: And yet who does he really turn against?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so he you know, he he's loved and he takes on the oppressor, the Romans, and yet when he goes into Jerusalem, it's the temple where he you know overturns the tables and that.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's not safe, and he's and and and Christ is the ultimate figure, like from Joshua 5, when Joshua goes to the commander of the Lord's host and says, Which side are you on?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: Their side or our side?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: And he just says, Yeah, no.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Which I I again I think is important to bear in mind that you know Christ is it's not the Bob Dylan song, it's not, you know, with God on our side, and you know.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: He he stands against both kinds of machoism.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and and as you say, right, the you know so clearly Zelensky is not a Nazi, right?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like Putin wants to cast him as a Nazi.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the his his own political situation, his own history, the integrity of his own political standing may well be very complicated.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is again a fear of rushing to jump behind someone and suddenly finding, oh, well now you've got to defend everything they've ever thought.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you think, well, no, it's more complicated.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: He did have a problematic Instagram back in 2011.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: But there is there is a thing there which says we we all look for an uh a narrative, a myth that makes sense of the complex situation.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think over this weekend, quicker than almost any other narrative I think we've seen form in the public consciousness, this man has risen right to the top and caused all sorts of reactions and further reactions off the back of that, which we'll look at later.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right that actually people want to want to form this thing, you know, whatever that thing is off the back of this, and actually we've seen that on social media over the last week or so, or particularly since the invasion began, that people have started to link what has gone on to almost everything else you can imagine.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: So anyone's hobby horse, and actually Thomas has put together uh a little challenge for us, uh, which we're gonna do in a moment.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation went out live on our YouTube channel.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can watch it and all our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: That will keep you posted.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 30:04
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• 30:10
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• 30:15
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• 30:24
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• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right, so Thomas, what have you got for us?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we are about to play the game What Does the Invasion of Ukraine prove about my hobby horse?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this is based on a Twitter thread compiled by Christopher Snowden.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so really important to say we mean this out of no disrespect or insensitivity toward the people of Ukraine.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is really about bemoaning the ways in which the crisis has been used as a tool to make points about unrelated issues.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to read out a series of issues, and your job is to guess how those issues have been connected to the invasion.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And anyone watching, feel free to join in.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: So are we ready for issue number one?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: We are reacting to reactions to the war.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the invasion of the Ukraine proves that we should adopt a low carb diet.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: How do low carb.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: So because Ukraine uh massive cane sugar um producer.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: They have a lot of like agricultural land, don't they?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe they do they grow a lot of crop and maybe like with it could be used.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: The argument just let's work this out.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: The argument then is because we should have a low carb diet.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: We ought to have a low carb diet.
• 32:02
  unknown: Yes.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what they're saying?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Are they in favour of a low carb diet?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: And somehow, yeah, so that's why in Ukraine supports that position.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's their hobby horse.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: We all need to eat fewer carbs.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: How could the invasion of Ukraine before?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: It wouldn't have happened if we were eating less carbs, is basically their Putin is going into Ukraine.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: All the pies.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: To harvest.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's more kind of how does the crisis mean that oh okay, now we get to Thomas.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to put us out.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do they get easier?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: So here's the tweet.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is a genuine tweet, by the way.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if fuel and grain prices surge because of Ukraine, it would be a good time to go green and start a low-carb, gluten-free diet.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Smiley face.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Fuel prices I would say my advantage.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: My mother-in-law has just said most of the world's wheat is grown in the Ukraine.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: So related.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Alright.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we're we're oh for one.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_05: Good effort.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_05: Good effort.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: So number two, the invasion of Ukraine proves that we should be pro-choice.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Proves that we should be pro-choice.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh because of the self definition of the Ukrainians, they they ought to be able to determine their own identity, just as a woman ought to have like sovereignty over her own borders and not have another state invade?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that would it be as advanced as that?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Or would it just be like I I assuming Putin is a bad guy and he he's probably not pro-choice.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, if you are not pro-choice as well, you're like Putin.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: So everybody should not be like Putin.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing else to add on that.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's pretty close.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so this was the tweet.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: There is a war in Ukraine, but there is also a war on women in Virginia.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: There are mul multiple bills that would restrict access to abortion that are expected to be heard today.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a war on Ukraine and there's a war on low-carb diet sense.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, okay.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: That is, I think, isn't that the most brilliant example of what about series?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is my favorite example if we've got time for it.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um the invasion of Ukraine proves that we should be anti-cycling.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Anti-cycling.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: As in riding bikes, yeah.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Anti-cycling.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Anti-cycling.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh oh, is it because um wasn't there a wasn't there a guy on his bike trying to stop the tanks or something?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: And therefore is is this guy on the side of Putin and the Russian army running over cyclists?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: I can't think of what would possibly be the link to cycling.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because most bicycles are grown in Ukraine?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what's happening?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: That must be it.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: The cost of bicycles is gonna go up.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: Is it because the envoys of tanks are all like causing a traffic jam?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: But if they had cycle paths, they'd be able to bypass the traffic jam?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, I have no idea.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Again, these are all very good ideas, but in a way you're thinking too hard, I think.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're thinking too hard.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're drawing a logical connection.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's just Putin bad.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just saying there's a we Sorry.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that more so someone tweeted a photo of a man riding a bike in Kiev and there's a tank in the background, and someone commented cyclists think they own the road even in a war.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should do one more.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think this segment could be rescued with one more.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, all right.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um the invasion of Ukraine proves that we should be anti-Brexit.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so this is this is the idea that Putin brought bet Brexit about to destabilize the European Union and NATO and everything else in the world.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Or they think the EU would be better off with Boris in it, and then they'd be able to negotiate with Putin with great greater power.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: What?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think people people have certainly said that that you know the EU has responded well and we've been stuck on the outside a little bit more, so maybe we should have been part of it.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: But then other people have said, like you just said, that you know, misinformation has been ceded by Russia.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all right.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is all happening now on your heads.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: Is it true that there are examples both of pro and anti-Brexit?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've only got the anti-Brexit ones here, but yeah, both sides have been made.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Both arguments.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, isn't it?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can make both arguments from the same information.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because surely the pro-Brexit argument would be, well, the EU is soft because it lost one of its 28 member states, and so it's not gonna do anything to if I mean I know Ukraine's not a member of the EU, but but if they you know if they lose, you know, Ukraine, the EU's not going to do anything because they lost Britain.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean then just joined.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the worst argument we've heard tonight.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think yeah, Ukraine just involvement in just joined tonight.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh tonight.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well they'd literally yeah, I mean it's that easy to get back in, apparently.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: So Well, Australia are in Eurovision, so it's it's all up for Grebs.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well again, very good uh guesses there.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: This this is the tweet.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Dominic Cummings, Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, and all those Brexiters.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Look what you did.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well you can't argue with logic like that.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: You invaded a sovereign nation.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: You did.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Look at what you did.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: I bet that tweeter just tweets that out about every fortnight.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Just no matter what's in the at some point it will catch some traction.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's all we have from what does the invasion of Ukraine prove about my hobby whores?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Good effort.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: But that's I mean, yeah, well, thanks so much for doing that.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it is a case, isn't it, that so many people have leapt on this and been like, this just goes to show my thing that I've been saying all along was right.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and conceivably, probably not those, there probably are some things which you know there may have been some stuff in in truth in, um, but there's probably also a time and a place, yeah, you know, to be starting to have those discussions as well.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do we want to look at a couple of comments from people?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, go on.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so Paul Blackham uh commented uh when we're talking about pacifism, he said it's not that the pacifist does nothing, they simply exclude one set of options, and doing that seems to open up even more radical possibilities.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Paul Blackham.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, hello.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh we had a comment from Lisa Daly.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say Fryer.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Apologies if I'm getting that wrong.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: She says, uh oh Lisa, unfortunately the comment is so long I can't actually read it all.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I assumed it would all be highlights.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: So um we'll go on to your comment section.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: We will pick that up on Facebook though.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was so ready for it! Good effort, Lisa.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, when I click on it, I'll be able to read the end of it.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, and uh there are yeah, lots of people kind of just chipping in with things uh here.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so um guys do let us know if you're because you're maybe watching this or listening to this later, do keep commenting um and let us know what you think is going on um in the situation.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, do be praying for the people of Ukraine and indeed for the people of Russia.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, we're called to pray for ye I suppose when I'm saying peop pray for the people of Russia, we're praying for the population there who are at least there are reports that many are not behind this.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: But we're also called to pray for enemies, and so you know, we want to pray that people like Putin himself and those who are actually carrying these things out would you know repent of what they're doing, would turn back, you know, would be talked down from whatever's going on, and you know, it sounds trite, doesn't it, to say, and let's pray that Putin turns to the Lord, but who knows?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: We know we've had the story of people go going to bomb a meeting and you know, turning to the Lord there.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: And Nebuchadnezzar, we were having to think about him this morning.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: He is a a man who was humbled and what I suppose what quite what what what what complicates the situation is uh I think was it a Giles Fraser article?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: His article didn't complicate the situation.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Free Fraser.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Giles Fraser had an article in Unheard, I think it was, just looking at some of the religious history of Russia and and Ukraine and talking about um Putin's actually sees this as part of a of a religious or spiritual exercise.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: There is there is a religious element to what he's trying to achieve.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the the challenge is that that is uh so tied up with all these completely nonsensical ideas about what the kingdom of the Lord looks like.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that he's almost like he's so close and the blindness to the reality of of the way of Jesus is so kind of so clear.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, men never do evil so cheerfully as when they do it for a religious reason.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Blaise Pascal kind of said that and and Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: And what's interesting is is we in the West have difficulty to take him seriously when he talks about the spiritual space that Ukraine occupies and that Russia is meant to also share that same spiritual space.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: And we can't help but think that's just a cynical cover for his political grab.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you're like, well, no, actually, most of the world and and most of history have been motivated by things like that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think it's the way of Jesus at all.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: But it's it's a religious way of thinking, but that's a register that we don't really think in in the West.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that his you know, it goes back again to that um uh the uh I was gonna say Armstrong and Miller, but it's not.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh David, Mr.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Rachel, Webb and the are we the baddies thing.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the question of whether someone thinks of themselves as doing a righteous deed when in fact they're committing the most outrageous evil.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and particularly as you said at the beginning, the language is around unity, right?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is about unity.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is about unifying the people together again and not having these divisions and and and drawing lines between people.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, no, we do actually believe in you know national.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sovereign states and yeah.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um nation states.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um I suppose that's a way in which uh you know falsehood is so it it deceives because it can be presented so yeah.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone always has causes for war.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: Rightly, yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Even but like like even Aristotle would present it in ever such a philosophical way.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: If you need slaves, here's a just cause for war.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: If you need some stuff, go and nick it.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's a just cause for war.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: And and Putin's speech was this long, meandering, rambling thing.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: I I I set myself the task of actually, you know, reading this thing, and it's just you go you go cross-eyed, like looking at his justification.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone's got justifications.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: No one thinks they're doing the wrong thing.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: No one thinks they're the baddies.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm sure we could talk about this for uh hours more because there's gonna be lots to unpack.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: But um I'm sure the reality is that we will be talking about this on subsequent weeks because this this is something that's gonna roll on and on and on.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh you may have seen if you've been watching the Speakeasy over the last maybe five or so weeks, we were doing a little series each week where we looked at a film.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we said last week we're gonna rest that for a while because we're just coming up uh to uh the period of Lent.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so we've got a new little section for you uh which we'll have a look at in a moment.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: Speak it.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we are a few days away from the beginning of Lent.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is it we're about to?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're etched on Wednesday.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: Get some pancakes tomorrow.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: Fat Tuesday.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that so like in French, in French it's Marigras.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: But literally fat Tuesday.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: Looking forward to Fat Tuesday.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: Trove Tuesday.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: Where we're driving.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: So isn't it like Trove Tuesday is interesting because to drive is to be kind of humbled, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this idea that you need to be like humbled in order to prepare yourself to a for a penitential state in the church's calendar that prepares you for Good Friday where you're really fast.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then you get to to Easter Sunday.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: But that's you know, that's that's the way Lent has kind of developed over the years.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got this uh series for Lent that we're doing where we've decided we're gonna take a bit of a look at the Apostles' Creed.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um so over the next sort of six weeks, we're gonna kind of go through that.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um what what is Lent all about though?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it it is a t a period of testing, it's 40 days.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um there are also six Sundays, so it's it's actually 46 days from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday, and there are other feast days like St.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: Patrick's Day that sort of happens in the middle of it, but it's 40 days of preparation, 40 days of testing.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's a corporate kind of a fast as well, which is interesting because like what we tend to think of these days is I'm gonna give up carbs for Lent, and you're gonna give up wine, and somebody else is gonna, you know, give up exercise, or I'm gonna give up reading, or like whatever whatever it is.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we all have our little bespoke Lent experiences.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it and it sort of expresses something about the complicated splendor that is me.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: And my Lent will be like this in your network.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas like the I think the the church practice has been, we all do it.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's all like the whole the whole town does it, right?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like in chocolate, you know, the whole town does not have chocolate, which is why it's you know such a um you know, such an asteroid falling on the town for for um the woman to open up the chocolate shop.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it is a time of testing and preparation for the feast that is that is Easter.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: Which I mean to my mind it does get things the wrong way around, I think, in the Old Testament.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: You had Passover first, and then you had the feast of unleavened bread, where you scoured your house for l yeast, which was a symbol that you didn't want to actually leave Egypt, you wanted to wait for your bread to rise.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so and so spiritually you'd look at you know, for for seven days you would look at aspects of your life that were compromised, and you're le you're leading the old life even even though you want to claim the the blood of the Passover Lamb.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um so interestingly, in the Old Testament, that kind of self-examination happened after you celebrated the redemption of the Lamb, whereas we do it for 46 days, you know, before before the redemption, which I think is the wrong way around.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there's all sorts of good things about Lent, too.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason why the Apostles' Creed is it sort of it developed as this preparation for baptism because one of the things that happened on Easter Sunday is you do all your baptisms on Easter Sunday, and so you'd like have hundreds of people getting baptized on in Rome, you'd have hundreds of people getting baptized, and so you'd actually fit in like 128 hours of discipleship training over seven weeks, three hours a day for six days a week, you'd really drill people in Bible and theology and apologetics and Christian living and prayer.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that gets kind of collated out of that is as you do your doctrine together, here's what we believe.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so the creed kind of came out of that and goes back to sort of the second century and and perhaps earlier.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Were you gonna say something?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: I thought you were gonna say something together.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd always thought Apostles' Creed was the guy who got killed by Ivan Drago.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people think that.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I'm joking.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um So the uh Apostles' Creed opens with the lines you've just said, Glenn.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's the little bit we're looking at today.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: What do we want to draw out from this?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: Lots of things.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: What do you what do you want to draw out from it, Paul?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I I mean I think it's interesting that um it obviously starts with God.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I I thought it was interesting the first way God is defined as his father.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think I can't remember the I was gonna say I can't remember the name of the book, but I can remember the name of the book now.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh I think it's good God, Mike Reeves.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um he talks about this, how actually um that ought to be the the the first defining thing about God.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people would like to define God as creator uh but actually what he draws out is that if we're saying God at his very core is creator, then who is God before he creates?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that kind of creates an issue.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas actually when we say, Well, God is father and he has always been father, that's also that's pointing us to something else as well about uh the kind of stuff you talk about, Glenn, about what was there at the beginning love.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um because we have persons, three persons united in love.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's already pointing us towards these relationships of the Trinity, and of course I mean the whole creed has the just Trinitarian thing through it anyway.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: But that's good.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was reflecting on that with the Lord's Prayer recently, that it starts with our Father in heaven, and it finishes with, you know, thine be the kingdom, the power and the glory.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think so a lot of theologies begin with thine be the kingdom, the power and the glory, and they get to father later.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think there's something very important about not only the Lord's Prayer, but the creed sort of beginning with Father, because as soon as you say Father, well it implies son and spirit, you know.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there was uh there was a book the title of which was I Dared to Call Him Father.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ilquist Sheikh?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I don't can't remember who's by but um I thought that was a fascinating one because in what other religion or in what other faith can you say I believe in God Father.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, maybe the ancient Norse myths might go, well, you know, Odin is the all father or something like that.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: But but in terms of a distinction you're making from the outset, now how how does he bec how is he father to you?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: How is he your father?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's there's a whole gospel to unpack there about you know being in his son and beloved as his son.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, fascinating that that's the early church wants the people to know in their preparation God, when you think God, think father.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's your first port of call.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, God as well.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you've often used that in your evangelism, haven't you?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: That you'd say you'd say to people, when you pick your God, what do you think what do you think of in your head?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you say, you know, it's probably the old man sitting on a throne somewhere, you know, high on power, low on personality, all those things.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's this solitary figure.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, straight away here we're being confronted with, as you said, there's the father, therefore, well father of of who?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on there?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which completely tears apart most people's preconception of who they think God might be or what God might be like.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, you might kind of look at the creed and kind of think, well, what on earth, how on earth is this really going to be relevant for us?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: But even in just that kind of basic day-to-day conversation with people about who is God, right from the off, I think that's super useful.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's this is the God that Jesus introduces you to.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what the creed is doing.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: The creed is saying, here is the God that Jesus introduces you to.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: In Luke 11, verse 1, the disciples see Jesus praying and they say, That looks great.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Can we come in on prayer?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: How do we pray?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus says, When you pray, you pray, Father.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: Which is just awesome because you just like from before the foundation of the world, Christ the Eternal Son, has been saying, My Father, my Father, my Father, my Father.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then the disciples say, Can we come in on this?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, Yeah, sure.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: In my name.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: Now you say, Our Father, our Father, our Father, our Father.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the corrective to the appropriate sensitivity for those whose earthly fathers have been awful.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: For for whom sometimes people say things like, Oh, well, so we don't like to talk in that those terms about God because it's quite a problematic term for some people.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what we're saying is that the the right approach to that is not to say let's not use the category of father, let's actually see the right fatherhood of God and receive or or accept Jesus' invitation that we can pray in his name to his father because they have the union.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's it's coming that way down.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not judge God by your dad, yeah.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: Which would be a terrible thing for mo even if you've got the best dad.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like God is not just like your dad, but a bit more powerful.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like that would be that would be horrendous.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: No matter how good you're it's not judge God by your dad.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's at some point, judge your dad by God.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's it's that way, that's way around.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: And and then and I think that it's picking up on 1 Corinthians 8 language, you know, there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that kind of designation throughout the Bible, when it says God, mostly you're trying to you're probably thinking Father, although that's not always the case.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: And when it says Lord, mostly you're thinking son, although that's not always the case.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the creed kind of picks that up and and it's got these sort of four articles.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: I believe in God the Father, I believe in Jesus Christ, his son, our Lord, I believe in the Holy Spirit, and then I believe in the church and all the rest of that stuff.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's those sort of four articles.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: It kind of beautifully flows from Father, Son, Spirit to the Church and everything that we have in the church.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: So God is firstly here described as Father, and then it goes on to say creator of heaven and earth, which I suppose you know you you picked up there on that Corinthians language, from whom all things come.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_03: So the source of all being.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: Which, you know, as we're as we're thinking about, here's little Putin, right?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um and here is the fountain of life from whom all things have come, you know.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: And he he really directs a king's heart like like a watercourse.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like really, the the God we are talking about, the creator of heaven and earth, such that when we say when we say a response to the invasion of Ukraine is to pray, that's not a little thing, you know.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not a token thing.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's like it's like l literally if you believe, you know, if you believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, like of course the very first thing you do is when little Putin does his his little warmongering.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: You you go to the big daddy.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: You go you go to your father in heaven, creator of heaven and earth, absolute source of all life and being, before whom we all must bow.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um it it puts things in such perspective.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts on that, Nate?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna say I think the creator stuff is is right there in terms of you know, lots of what we've talked about here at Speak Life.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: And things about the foundry and you know the school of creative evangelism.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you can I think it there is so much to unpack from every every word of the the Apostles' Creed.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um but one of the things is that we can we can become sort of bogged down in okay, but there's a kind of um important truths, deep, you know, kind of things that we've got to hold on to or that you hold on to in the face of chaos and confusion and all the stuff that's going on.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: But uh wonderfully, because he's creator of heaven and earth, that's not only this okay, he's sovereign, he's in charge, and he's you know, he's big and strong, and he you have a father-child relationship, but he's the creator of everything.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like think of all the things.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's loads of things.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: All things considered.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's incredible.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you so just the ability for for Christians to genuinely enjoy creation and and to to find in it you know a doxology as they look at amazing things and just think, Father Almighty, you creator of heaven and earth.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just like right like and so the the the thrillmanship, right?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: The thrillmanship is the weirdest word I know, right?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the thrillmanship of saying this is my father's world, right?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is just amazing.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just such an encouragement and such a delight, rather than you know, rightly in the context of events of you know, of the weekend, you need to have something very firm to hold on to.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have something that that really does set everything else in context.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: But same too, there are there are aspects of the beauty of God's creation which can be enjoyed even in the midst of utter um utter chaos and confusion.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um I was talking to our Barry Cooper who was down over the weekend, and we were talking about the the Terence Malik film A Hidden Life, uh, which is a fascinating film.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you can cope with it, it's a Terence Malik film.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of beauty and thinking through some big issues about confronting issues of of war and and uh loyalty and nationhood and all that sort of stuff, and there's just this wonderful moment, there's this character who is basically condemned to die, and as he walks out of this shop, he knocks over an umbrella and he just stops, picks up the umbrella, sets it right, and walks out.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there's something there about the fact that Father Almighty is creator of heaven and earth, which means that in the face of your own execution, you can you can set the world everything matters a little bit right.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: It all counts.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like Luther was asked, what would you do if you knew that tomorrow Jesus is returning?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: What would you do?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: He said, I'd plant a tree.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's that kind of thing.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's like what?
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: But that kind of that assumes so much about the world and the the life of the world to come and the the fact that it's a fathered world, an intended world, a good world, which you don't get in the ancient Near Eastern myths, you don't get in the Greek myths, you don't get in the Roman myths, you don't you don't even get in Islam because you've looked like God is not father over over a world that he is is going to be engaged with.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_03: He he always remains imprisoned by his own transcendence and and and infinitely distant from it.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_03: So you only get this view of creation with the Jesus God.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: The God who introduces us to a father who loves this world and has great intentions for this world.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_03: So of course you put the you put the umbrella back and you you plant the tree because it's loved and it has a future.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we are now in the final part of the podcast.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is obviously a constantly changing situation, so it's been 18 hours since that speakeasy episode went out live on YouTube and Facebook.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: Since then, there have been a few updates.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Russian armored convoy is still bearing down on Ukrainian capital city of Kiev, according to BBC News.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: But Paul Feese, as it stands at the moment, do you have any more reflections since you recorded last night's episode?
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, as you say, the situation keeps changing all the time, and um it's kind of hard to keep on top of exactly what's going on.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's an interesting thing, isn't it, because this is probably one of the first major conflicts where so much has played out visibly online on social media.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I mean I can, you know, as I'm scrolling through Twitter, you can kind of see constant updates from people in Ukraine um or correspondence press, you know.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the tricky thing, I suppose, in all of this is knowing what's actually going on.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because there's already articles on the BBC where they're they're showing photos and video footage and saying, actually this is an old photo, this is from a few years ago, this isn't you know, this is old footage from 2014 or bits and bobs like that.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we want to go as far as saying we have no idea what's going on.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: It seems that generally we can we can get the sense of what is what is happening.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean I suppose what's interesting to me is what what it's harder for us to get a sense of is exactly what Russians themselves think about this, um in that the everyday Russians, so to speak, what are their thoughts on this war?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um how aware are they of it?
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: How much access to information do they have?
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um because it seems from what you hear that you know their their kind of access to media is uh limited, their press is obviously very limited, there's a lot of Russian propaganda.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did read one lady who said that she spoke, you know, I think she was a Ukrainian lady who spoke to a relative in Russia and she said, Well, you know, why are you doing this?
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: And this this lady in Russia had said, But we're helping you, we're freeing you from this Nazi regime.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, she's just completely fallen under this propaganda of that Russia has sold them.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're conscious that any discussion we put out about Ukraine at the moment will very quickly go out of date simply because this is very much an ongoing crisis and there are updates every day.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, do send in any thoughts.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we'd love to hear from you, and uh, I imagine this might be something that you guys come back to.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think so.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's certainly not gonna this isn't gonna disappear by next Monday, is it?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: So um undoubtedly the conversation will develop over time and yeah, it's it's obviously something we need to take very seriously.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, well, thank you, Paul, for helping us think through some of those things, and thank you very much, whoever you are, wherever you are, for listening to this podcast.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we will be back next week.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: See you soon.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.