Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jack Coyer about his enforced torture of Timelash (1/2)

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Talks to Jack Coyer about his enforced torture of Timelash (1/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
0:37
Quicker welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife
0:40
the only government mandated commentary podcast Joe why are
0:47
we why why why are we discussing this story I.
0:53
Don't even know what story are we discussing Jack.
0:56
We are doing what some would declare one of the stories in
1:01
Season 22, Time Lash, yes. I might be more.
1:08
I think this could be I could be responsible.
1:10
Well, well, this is I will sort of advocate joint responsibility
1:16
for this because although it was obviously your decision to say,
1:20
Hey, let's do timeless as he sort of just gave me a gift of
1:24
of Paul Darrow sort of laugh in the nightly.
1:28
So when we first did off the first commentary on the edge of
1:32
the suction and then we fall about with the young quite dead
1:36
and then we'd do Amy's choice and I'd give a bit of jumpertory
1:39
both on strictly come hamster and the time monster.
1:43
And I sort of thought, do you know what?
1:44
We're racking up the different doctors and that gives us an
1:48
opportunity to talk all around the entire 60 year history of
1:53
Doctor. I'm talking about different
1:55
eras, life is showrunners, directors, producers, all that
1:59
sort of then. And so I thought great, wouldn't
2:01
it? And I did message you once a few
2:04
months ago saying wouldn't it be great if we could eventually do
2:08
one from every doctor? And unfortunately, somewhere a a
2:14
finger curled on a monkey's paw. And because I was thinking, oh,
2:20
great, thank him from their last revelation of its Alex.
2:24
And you're like, not quite almost.
2:27
But so now, now we're on the Time lash.
2:32
What can I say? OK, now I'm actually going to
2:35
put 80% of the responsibility on you, even though it was my
2:39
suggestion, and that is only because somehow you managed to
2:45
last the entire 6th episode length and more of the time.
2:50
Monster making smart, witty, hilarious remarks offhand.
2:58
And so I just thought, well, I mean, if he can, if he can
3:01
Polish that turd, what on earth will he do with time?
3:04
Lash, here we are. Well, I think Time Lash and the
3:08
time Monster, apart from, you know, both sitting in the
3:12
pantheon of, you know, time, flight time and the Army closing
3:17
time, time of the Doctor, you know, all the all the best time
3:22
stories. Oh dear, do you know what I
3:24
suddenly I'll see the pattern. Yes, I think that there's maybe
3:28
the Time Warrior and the Time Middler and that's about
3:31
probably about it. The invasion of time.
3:35
I'll let the view of us decide which category the invasion of
3:39
time for. I think we can maybe all decide
3:41
amongst ourselves. I don't know.
3:43
Don't give them too much all right, They may make the and
3:46
you've heard strictly come hamster.
3:47
You've been on Hamster, you know.
3:50
I mean I'm sure some of you will put it in one the category.
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Season 15 coming up soon and I'll bet that Turkey will win
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it. Well, yes, no, I mean, you know,
4:00
6 episodes, it must be good. But so no, I mean, it's a took a
4:07
month because we we we have an opportunity here to talk about
4:16
something that is pretty universally declared to be one
4:20
of the worst Colin Baker stories.
4:23
And that's obviously Once Upon a time was universally prepared to
4:27
be the worst year of the show and never.
4:32
And this is obviously pretty notable because this is the
4:36
first story that comes out in full after the announcement of
4:42
the hiatus. So that happens during broadcast
4:46
of the Three Doctors. So the viewing numbers for this
4:50
story actually go up a little. Bit about a million, probably
4:54
about a. Million, yeah, probably because
4:56
the viewers at home are going, what on earth is going to happen
4:59
now, you know? So could we view this as the
5:04
first and possible end of the show?
5:10
And I think it's sort of interesting to look at in that
5:14
record of like the viewers are thinking we're up against the
5:18
wall here. What, what are we going to pull
5:21
out of the bag to to try and prove Doctor Who's case to the
5:25
world? And do you know this 15?
5:29
Some plots and no money. No.
5:33
And then next week we get Revelation of the dollars, which
5:36
is 15 subplots and a little bit more money and.
5:40
It's so strange, isn't it? Because having Time, Lash and
5:42
Revelation back-to-back and the two Doctors being where the
5:45
cancellation announcement hits means you get some of the worst
5:51
and some of the best Doctor Who back-to-back.
5:54
There's no way of sort of making a call on whether the series is
5:58
delivering worthwhile television.
6:01
Yeah. I think obviously we're
6:04
obviously in the 4th 5 minute format as well, so, but do we
6:09
know whose responsibility that was?
6:11
Is that a guarantee thing? Was that forced on them?
6:14
Or the ratings went up when they trialled it in Resurrection of
6:18
the Daleks. However, because they trialled
6:20
it in Resurrection of the Daleks, which features the
6:23
Daleks, the ratings probably would have gone up anyway, so it
6:26
might have been a bit misleading.
6:28
Yeah. And then they thought, great,
6:30
we'll do that because I think part of the Doctor Who or
6:33
classic Doctor Who's appear anyway.
6:35
What do people love about it? They love the cliffhangers.
6:38
They love, you know, it's a short burst of Saturday
6:41
afternoon entertainment. And at the end of the thing,
6:45
the, you know, damsel in distress will scream, or the
6:48
doctor will fall in a hole, or, you know, the dogs will show up,
6:52
or something will happen. And then that, you know, turns
6:55
the story and it creates it back in its way, and you know, so on
6:59
and so forth. Jack.
7:00
Well, this is this year is really feels a bit more skilled
7:05
in that regard because there's no burst of energy that comes
7:10
from the shorter instalments you.
7:12
Know when you say that you've sort of pushed me into a bit of
7:16
a existential crisis by trying to suggest that Doctor Who is
7:20
just a short burst of Saturday afternoon TV for people to just,
7:24
you know, put on and throw away? And that is something I've
7:28
committed to my entire life to like a religion.
7:31
Now suddenly my life choices feel very empty.
7:36
Well, I mean in, in a way, that's what religion is, isn't
7:39
it's a sort of short burst of Saturday afternoon entertainment
7:42
and you know, the man in a shiny Rd. turned up and you sing a
7:46
song and then you'll go home again and wait for next
7:48
Saturday, so. I'm, I'm so appalled.
7:50
I'm preparing the time lash as we speak.
7:53
All right, I'll get the commentary out of you and then
7:56
you're off to Loch Ness. Yeah, well, yeah, along with
8:00
this Garrison, me, this Garrison before that, we're all hanging
8:05
out. Man, but you're gonna have some
8:07
great mates there, aren't they? Yeah.
8:11
Can I ask you a question? So like, you know, imagine, like
8:15
you just said to me off Mike, about looking at Doctor Who in
8:18
the rearview mirror. And I'm going to ask you about
8:19
that because it's such a brilliant, brilliant way of
8:22
looking at this story. But like, imagine you weren't
8:25
doing that. You were actually looking out of
8:27
the windscreen right now. Yeah.
8:30
Yeah, my head is out the windscreen, the glass has been
8:33
shattered. The laughing I see is the
8:36
lightly my eyes is Paul Darrow. Paul Darrow's enormous, you
8:40
know, Campy Richardson head is there, you know, berating
8:45
everybody, throwing out inside. This is Doctor Who now.
8:48
Yeah. Do you imagine sort of, you
8:50
know, Ronald McDonald running around pantomime sets with a
8:54
cold electric score and, you know, interesting things to say
8:58
about disability? Yeah.
9:00
And genetic mutations and, well, enormous phallic monsters.
9:05
Do you imagine that was quite a fun place to be?
9:08
I think there were moments in season 22, but definitely go for
9:13
that. So it's a, it's a year, both
9:16
good and bad. He's aiming for, I don't know
9:20
what you call it, the sort of grand, grimy old, the sort of
9:24
Robert Holmes, very Robert. We'll get him to Robert Holmes
9:27
because obviously I know he's not officially involved with
9:30
this story, but I think he's Spectre sort of looms large over
9:35
the whole year. Busy mates at this point
9:38
talking. All the revelation of dykes
9:40
would not exist without proper homes.
9:42
I'm. Telling you And so I think
9:47
there's a sense of the gross mess.
9:51
Adoptive and growth can be a good thing.
9:53
You know, plenty of kids, young people will watch horror
9:59
inspired films and go yuck, but if you go yuck with a smile on
10:05
your face, that's it's all very different experience.
10:10
I think Revelation of the Daleks has a lot of yuck moments in it,
10:15
you know, And Shell is definitely a young.
10:18
Moment he's a he's a gurgling turd, isn't he?
10:21
Like it's horrible. Exactly.
10:23
So I I don't think that impulse is is unwarranted or or not
10:29
needed. I I think a bit more balance, a
10:34
few more marker Lonnies foaming sort of in amongst things to
10:40
sort balance the tone out a little bit more.
10:44
You know, if you took one season 22 esque story per year, I think
10:50
people would have a lot of fun with it or even 2 and they could
10:54
be considered, you know, amongst the best, amongst the best of
10:59
that year. I just don't think it would be
11:02
watching it live. And you know, if you go through
11:06
the season swimming through box set, you can still have that
11:09
experience of watching all the stories consecutively.
11:14
I think there is maybe that sense of in a similar way to
11:18
something like season 5, there is a sense of we need to move to
11:23
something new and and we can have something like, you know,
11:31
the invasion balanced up against something like, you know, the
11:35
the walk-ins and even space pilot stuff like that.
11:39
But when it's all just to the side, men upon the post momentum
11:43
weather fear you, you know, you need that enemy of the world to
11:47
sort of cancel it out. And it's a similar thing with
11:50
22. I do think Mark and Arani is
11:54
that story though. It's still violent, but it is
11:59
gentle, you know, pastoral, they will say.
12:03
Yeah. And it's interesting that then
12:05
Pip and Jane become the the, the whole dopers, you know, the
12:09
continuity, you know, they are obviously Robert Holmes is kind
12:14
of doing the Time Lord obviously passes away.
12:18
And then it's Pip and Jane who are given the transition not
12:22
only of finishing off the Time Lords, but going on to Simon
12:26
Murani. And they're obviously the only
12:30
McCoy writers who have been for the show before.
12:35
So it's interesting to see that that impulse is ultimately what
12:39
what wins the day. Probably because obviously we
12:43
know, but JMT, you know, say we've had a bit of a falling out
12:46
and maybe JMT is looking at it and prime a scrub or the Eric
12:53
say what sort of influences away not only from from the sort of
12:58
crew cast and crew list, but also from the family.
13:02
I mean, he really disliked them, Eric Saywood, and he's scathing
13:06
about them in interviews. But, and I wonder if JNT was
13:09
like, well, they're the only people that are willing to still
13:12
work with me. Eric's got all the other rights
13:14
on side. But I do think it was a good
13:17
impulse, you know, to push away from the grotesque.
13:21
I'm pleased they did do grotesque because we had a
13:23
little period of it. But to push away from that into,
13:25
I mean, my walks, quite grotesque.
13:27
But the rest of that is, you know, Sunday afternoon, Doctor
13:32
Who murder mysteries and lovely walks in the forest.
13:36
Yeah, and the Mcquaver, you know, occasionally gets flashes
13:41
of it, I suppose. The Stephen Wyatt stories, you
13:45
know, you look at, I look at them and I kind of, you know, I
13:48
think this is what I wanted the Eric Faywood stuff to be.
13:53
I mean, God knows what Paradise Towers or Great Show would look
13:57
like if they were being scripted by Eric Fable rather than having
14:00
the car. You would see those old days
14:03
literally being dragged down those tubes.
14:06
He's shocked up by the cleaners. Yeah, exactly.
14:09
I mean, you know, God knows what Richard Boys would be doing.
14:12
I don't. Want to know?
14:15
I think that similar impulses is still there, but like you said,
14:20
they are moving more towards, I know Andrew Carmer and Pip and
14:26
Jane didn't necessarily get along creatively, but I think
14:29
that that impulse is, is what do I see it is for the rest of it,
14:36
yeah. So, talking of grotesque
14:41
stories, Time Lash. Let's.
14:45
Bring our let's bring our attention to the story that, you
14:49
know, the penultimate story of the season, which I'll probably
14:53
say is bubbling, bubbling along quite nicely in terms of yeah,
14:56
Cyberman story, a new female villain played by a glamorous
15:00
actress, trip to Seville, you know, gorgeous location work and
15:04
a satire on the media. So we're sort of bubbling along
15:08
quite nicely in terms of ideas and in times of money on the
15:11
screen and things like that and then lashes broadcast.
15:15
Yeah. And then we sort of see if
15:17
things start to run around a little bit.
15:20
And I mean, like we say, I think everyone's got their eye on
15:26
Revelation of the Daleks. And I just think this is a
15:34
little bit, it feels like it could be the sort of damp squid
15:38
end to a season, really. I mean, but we know that the
15:42
time didn't run out and the money didn't run out because
15:46
regulation is made off for this. So the question is sort of where
15:52
are the resources and that is maybe not being used towards
15:57
this or maybe they're looking at the Claire McCoy script such as
16:03
it is and saying is this we're just going to keep this the same
16:08
level of effort as well. I mean, we've mentioned Robert
16:12
Holmes's name. I think we could invoke the
16:15
croissants as this is very much a it feels like we're just doing
16:21
the croissants again, kind of. Yeah, I or even earlier.
16:28
I mean, I was listening to slight entirety episode on this
16:32
today and it was they referred to the Savages as a sort of
16:38
precursor to this. Obviously, I don't know if Glenn
16:41
Mccoy's got the amount of bad sort of ideas that Ian Stewart
16:45
Black had, but you know, it's an interesting about him.
16:49
I think when you start digging into time last year, there are
16:52
so many ideas in here and that is one of the things I like
16:55
about it is that it doesn't really sit on one idea too long
16:59
for you to get bored before it's trying something else.
17:03
That's especially a problem in Part 2 where suddenly we're
17:06
fearing off in a million directions.
17:08
But I think you can sort of see about 50 Doctor Who, other
17:13
Doctor Who stories in here if you go digging, you know, alien
17:16
invasion dictator. Yeah.
17:19
I mean, we're doing ventures on virus again with the guy on the
17:22
screens, you know, like. Yes.
17:23
Well, yeah, there's a big surveillance.
17:27
I mean, a lot of the stories this season, obviously
17:29
Revelation has a lot of surveillance in it to doctors, I
17:36
suppose. Does it be as well, you know,
17:39
right. Can't men see?
17:41
That is a great a great segue and we'll go into the episode in
17:44
a minute. So there's a lot to talk about
17:46
in the episode, but there's a great segue to talk about
17:48
Pennant Roberts very quickly. Because the way the way that
17:52
Graham Harper suggests that people are being watched in
17:57
Revelation of the Daleks is to have characters stare up at a
18:00
camera. Yeah, you don't see the camera,
18:02
ever. Colin Baker walks into that
18:04
fabulous hall, doesn't he? And he just looks straight into
18:07
the camera with a puzzled look on his face.
18:09
And we know he's being watched. Whereas in Time Lash, when the
18:14
Doctor walks into a room, the school camera swings in and just
18:19
very dramatically swings upwards and does a pan in on the
18:23
cheapest looking bloody camera you've ever seen in your life.
18:26
And it's like there's two approaches and that's kind of
18:29
the two approaches to the story directorially.
18:32
Yeah. And I think that perhaps it goes
18:34
more towards the GMT producer, his with his producer hat on at
18:40
this point. He's thinking under budget and
18:44
on time and, you know, as a producer would, you know, under
18:48
budget, on time. Let's do that first and whatever
18:52
else we can get, you know, which sometimes means that we do lose
18:57
more big, big directors with more an eye towards the visuals
19:03
in the craft. You know, we're going to lose a
19:06
Paul Joyce or, or for example, because yeah, yeah, that what
19:12
Peter Quinlady obviously fell out with later on.
19:15
There was that whole thing was an error about.
19:17
And this is where J&T should have just put his social life to
19:21
one side. Yeah, yes.
19:23
This TV show is basically it's his career, right?
19:26
What he's putting on the screen is his career is an example of
19:29
what he can make as a piece of television.
19:31
Yeah, Yeah. And so to go.
19:34
Oh, well, you know, yeah, You know, Graham Harper, he's all
19:37
right. And Peter Grimwell, I don't like
19:39
him so much, you know, but are they're amazing directors.
19:42
But yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel a lot safer with lovely
19:44
old Pennant, you know, because he sucks up to me a bit and
19:47
treats me like a gods. I mean, I don't know that's the
19:49
case. But I know they were good
19:50
friends because they worked everyone other stuff.
19:52
Yeah. That's the point where.
19:53
And I think he can attract brilliant directors because I
19:56
think I actually think Ron Jones does a good job of vengeance.
19:59
I think Matthew Robertson does a good job of attack, and
20:02
certainly Graham Harper does a good job of oh, and Sarah
20:04
Hellings. Yeah, this is a season of fairly
20:07
good direction. Yeah, I remember him from the
20:09
McCoy and I think the the calibre directors we're
20:13
attracting does go up a little bit again, you know, so and
20:18
obviously not just the direction, but the writers
20:21
obviously they've said on the special features for this story,
20:25
Eric Saywood said something on the lines of, oh, you know, the
20:28
producer John Mason Turner. He didn't.
20:32
Did he say that at the start? Did he?
20:34
That's unusual. Well, he, well, sometimes he
20:36
doesn't even say John Mason Turner.
20:37
Sometimes he just says the producer.
20:39
And we as fans sort of understand who that is.
20:44
He says, you know, he didn't really want, he wanted a lot
20:47
more newer writers and obviously that holds 2 even into the
20:52
Cartmel. You've got a lot of new writers
20:55
as well. But Cartmel, Cartmel can craft
20:59
new writers to Doctor Who, whereas Eric, unfortunately, you
21:03
know, he wrote the Visitation. So like, you know, and he can't
21:08
do it because look at Barbara Clegg and, and there are
21:11
examples of new writers coming in.
21:14
I just don't think Glenn McCoy is one of them.
21:16
Well, The Visitation's an interesting one because
21:18
obviously that service here was Fable first, before he became
21:22
script editor. And it's interesting that the
21:24
most interesting character for this The Visitation, is the one
21:28
who really doesn't want to be in a Doctor Who adventure.
21:32
You know, Richard Mace is constantly trying to get out of
21:35
being in a Doctor Who story, and that's perhaps just sort of
21:39
indicator as to where we're going.
21:42
It does all, doesn't it? All of those, all of those thugs
21:45
that he loves, right? Of all listen or CV much more
21:48
than the doctor. But I mean off the top of my
21:53
head. So from 18 to 26 the the GMT is.
21:59
Is it just Terrence Dicks and Robert Holmes that have written
22:04
before season 18 I think. It is, yeah.
22:07
Yeah, exactly. And Terrence Dicks only does
22:10
what he does State of Decay, which have been kicking around
22:15
since Pinch clip and Holmes days and he's bought him as a charity
22:20
gesture to do before doctors just because Robert Holmes said
22:24
no. So if you if you did State of
22:27
Decay and you let Robert Holmes do the Five Doctors, then it's
22:32
only Robert Holmes who is coming back, which is perhaps why it be
22:37
a spectre of Robert Holmes hands so much over the season and even
22:43
in this story, which we'll get into as we get into it.
22:46
The trouble is OK, this will be the last point before I press
22:49
play otherwise. I'm sorry.
22:51
Don't worry guys. We will eventually talk about
22:54
the finance, which I'm sure you all get into here.
22:57
It's a bit like my sensorised one.
22:59
We never talked about that once, we never talked about all the
23:01
other stuff. I've been reading a lot of
23:04
Doctor Who, but lately for the book club and one of the things
23:07
I love and loathe about the New Adventures is that obviously,
23:14
because that was a new range of books.
23:15
That's all first time Doctor Who writers in that range.
23:18
Yeah. Yeah.
23:19
And it goes one or two ways, right, That either they impress
23:23
or they're just terrible and the consistency is literally that
23:28
from book to book. OK yeah there's and.
23:30
And that's the risk you take with a new writer, right.
23:33
So I think it's worth doing doing that fresh blood, new
23:38
ideas, original ways of looking at Doctor Who.
23:41
But the the trade off is sometimes you get time lash.
23:45
Exactly. And I think, you know, if that
23:47
maybe if we were speculating, if that maybe John Mason Turner
23:53
wanting to be seen as the the, the sort of sticky head of
23:59
Doctor Who, but the save your show and that we don't want any
24:05
familiar names coming in because I want to make it show.
24:10
I don't know. But, yeah, you sometimes feel
24:14
that, you know, you you limped on an old familiar pair of hands
24:20
to do the 20th anniversary story because you knew that that would
24:24
be someone who, you know, churn up the traditions of the program
24:30
and make a story that's good in that regard.
24:33
Well, maybe obviously, as we saw the Terence, he went on to carry
24:37
on writing audio plays, writing books, longing into the 90s.
24:43
Maybe he's saying old ideas again and again.
24:46
Is that, well, I mean, yes, I suppose this, that balance you
24:50
have to strike. But maybe there are other
24:53
writers who in this era or who could have come into this era
24:59
and sort of limp their experience to it.
25:02
You know, post Blake seven, I would have loved for Chris
25:05
Boucher to come back. I've done a couple because he
25:07
really honed his script writing when he was writing for Blake 7,
25:11
you know, he basically was rewriting most of the episodes
25:13
and zingy liners and grotesque characters and all of that.
25:17
I love. He would have been a perfect fit
25:19
for this season I think. Yes, I mean well, well.
25:27
Shall we get into the? Yeah, finally, it's the moment
25:30
you've all been waiting for one. Last thing, sorry, is you know,
25:38
Clint McCoy was an ambulance driver.
25:41
I'm sure he probably drove a lot of people who had just turned
25:45
their televisions off after watching party.
25:49
The suicide rate was high. What I'm saying is I'm a shop
25:53
worker, so there's hope for me yet.
25:56
Yes, way, but you've only written what, 2 scripts less
26:00
Glenn McCoy had written by the time I've.
26:04
Still only written 2 scripts less than Glenn McCoy has
26:07
written for a good reason. Or should we find out why?
26:11
Yes. Countless in go.
26:15
On in so there's nothing else you need to say before we start.
26:22
I'm absolutely done. If you do, save your breath for
26:25
the time left comment with Joe 4.
26:28
Most people impart their wisdom with a scream in 321.
26:37
Go wisdom, you say. You're too kind.
26:41
Well, most do. OK, well, let's be unambiguously
26:45
positive, because we make a title difference.
26:48
Colourful isn't. It yes, it's so funny in the
26:51
behind the sofa on the Blu-ray as Colin Baker smiles.
26:56
Here they've seen Colin, Nicola and Terry Malloy and Terry
27:00
Malloy looks at him and goes, You're smiling.
27:03
You didn't used to do that when you were on the show.
27:07
He smiles a few times. And this doesn't he not.
27:10
Often, but probably when the Borad is threatening to make
27:14
he's. Grumpy.
27:15
You know Jack, because Paul Darrow's stealing all the
27:18
screen. Well, not yet, he's not.
27:20
This is Colin Baker's chance to make his and Mick Le Bryant
27:26
dressed like she just walked off the set of nine to five, but at
27:30
least she's covered. Yeah, she's covered.
27:34
Actually. I quite like that outfit.
27:37
That's a bit more discreet than Vengeance, isn't it?
27:39
And two doctors. Yeah, Well, yes, tackle the
27:42
Cybermen, yeah. I'm not going to cast any
27:44
aspersions on your sexuality, but you might like watching
27:47
those stories for other reasons. I don't know.
27:49
Well, I mean, what? There's no, there's not a lot of
27:51
reasons on screen to enjoy watching some of these stories.
27:55
You. Bitch.
27:58
Now this TARDIS banter, yes, well, where do you stand on it
28:04
and do you think any of them do it?
28:06
Well, any it's all teams or. My trouble with the TARDIS
28:11
banter in 22 is I just think the whole set is so overlit.
28:16
It feels like a a, you know, a kids quiz show or something like
28:21
that, that we're watching Cracker Jack or something like
28:23
that. Yeah, but I do think Colin and
28:25
Nicola have great chemistry. They're given like terrible
28:28
lines to say, but they find the humour in it.
28:32
Yes, they left all of it because like we've spoken about before,
28:36
the direction doesn't really, the space isn't really an
28:39
interesting one to film in because we've lost, you know,
28:43
the tallest bedroom, sort of stuff like that.
28:46
That's at least a different environment to be in here.
28:50
We're just sort of in that blank space.
28:53
And it's a real shame that the McCoy era doesn't go into the
28:56
TARDIS much. But then you look at this and
28:59
go, this is what they have to come before then.
29:03
I think I looked at some of these episodes and went, yeah,
29:08
let's just use the TARDIS as a conveyance.
29:10
You. Know exactly.
29:12
Which is a real shame because I like the TARDIS seem in a story
29:17
but. Kind of watch Enlightenment
29:19
where they turn the lights down, they're playing chess and it all
29:22
looks so gorgeous. You're like, why can't we just
29:24
do this all the time? Definitely.
29:25
And you're obviously a million years away from the sort of
29:29
mosque man, you know, console. Now, I not quite like this
29:33
little model. I know it's not a really good
29:35
one, but I like it. I appreciate them sort of
29:38
zooming across the surface because it could have just been
29:41
a flat. You know, yeah, this young actor
29:47
who's about to die in a couple of minutes time is an actual
29:51
proper actor, which one called Kazak the young, The young
29:55
looking fair haired one. Young guys, the name of Yeah.
30:00
So I go on. He looks a bit like Mar Marc
30:03
when he was younger. I thought this photographs of
30:05
Mark from his teenagers looking a bit like that.
30:07
A young actor called Stephen Mackintosh he was might
30:11
recognize him from The Muppet Christmas Carol, where he played
30:14
Michael Caine's Ebenezer Screwed his nephew Fred.
30:18
He was also in Rocket Man, the Elton John biopic.
30:22
He played Elton John's real dad. He's been him.
30:25
I've been Luther. He's done some actual proper
30:28
work and here he is as a young lad for 5 minutes of time.
30:32
His career peaked here. I think it was all downhill
30:35
from. Here, not not The Muppets, not
30:37
Elton John. The Muppets didn't go up a
30:40
million viewers on 2nd viewing, did they?
30:43
The. We we we skipped over the
30:48
captivating I have a Ryan banter.
30:51
I quite like, I do quite like that, the way he sort of looks
30:55
off screen wistfully. It's a gentle moment between
30:58
them. It's well, yes, I do.
31:01
There 1 And now we're talking about this Time tunnel.
31:07
Hey, Doctor, do you remember the time tunnels they were in
31:10
Resurrection of the Daleks? Well, I don't know why you
31:13
remember that, Perry, because you weren't in Resurrection of
31:16
the Daleks. So I don't know.
31:20
I don't have to say this nicely, so I'm just going to say it.
31:23
It's the gayest time tunnel I've ever seen in my life, isn't it?
31:26
It's like someone's spewing up a Pride flag.
31:29
Yes, and now in the in the new special edition, it just sort of
31:35
looks like the jumper to Tom Baker time tunnel title
31:39
sequence. Stop making Doctor Who
31:41
heteronormative special edition people.
31:46
Well, Speaking of not time and making a head for a moment, it
31:49
would just shot one of the women so you know.
31:53
There is another woman in this though.
31:55
I was quite happy to see that. One of the yeah, well, it's a
31:59
shame, but yeah. And of course Beamer, who walked
32:02
into when we came to it. Can I just like to think I love
32:06
the Android because it's just so weird looking that hair.
32:10
The hair makes yeah. And I just love all the scenes
32:13
in the Boraz chamber because one, I think they they have a
32:16
little bit of atmosphere and so every time someone turns into a
32:19
skeleton, it's the funniest. Yes.
32:21
And then the little thump, if they hit the floor, it's.
32:25
So funny. Yeah, but this is quite good
32:28
Like this. Just her.
32:29
Not us not seeing him, her seeing him, her being repulsed.
32:32
That's all right. Yes, now we've gone into Robert
32:36
Holmes and it's been before, obviously behind the scenes
32:39
story. Glenn McCoy famously submitted a
32:43
script with the Daleks in it and they would have told him you
32:48
can't write a Dalek story because we have to pay a
32:51
termination. 50,000,000 lbs. So think about that.
32:55
With that knowledge in mind, have a look at the Borat and
32:59
think, does the Borat maybe look familiar to a different film?
33:04
He does. Hang on.
33:08
What's an anagram of borad? No, it doesn't work.
33:12
It's. Not too.
33:15
Far off. It's not too far off though.
33:17
Isn't it So this is the exposition scene between Miklos
33:22
and Naveena were going. You know what sort of leader
33:27
appears only on the screen? Well, we we haven't seen the
33:30
scream yet, so we don't know that he only appears on the
33:33
screen at. Least we know, though.
33:35
At least we know now, all right? Yes.
33:37
In fact, we've met the board, so we know he doesn't appear only
33:41
on the screen because we've actually met him already in the
33:43
story. Please watch the acting styles
33:46
as well because I think the guy who plays mid cross is quite
33:49
naturalistic and I think Vena, I'm not sure what he's going.
33:54
For here I know what. I think she's trying to show
33:57
sort of the crushing tyranny of the Bora, that she's lost all
34:01
emotion and she just has this sort of land delivery all the
34:04
time. Sure.
34:05
Yeah, she's really losing all the emotion that's charging for
34:10
this split. She's.
34:11
Thought about it, Jack. She's thought about it.
34:13
Or. Not wonderful.
34:15
Vacant. Oh, this fellow's great.
34:19
Please not the time Lash. Yeah, would you?
34:24
But I think what I said to you a couple of weeks ago on WhatsApp,
34:27
timeless. Still flung it out there though.
34:30
Didn't I? So, yeah.
34:33
And if this is just filled with stuff like, you know, our
34:38
enemies, the band drills, they used to be our allies, but now
34:41
they're our enemies. It's just a little bit of fleet,
34:43
man. Why can we not see this stuff?
34:47
Why do we have to be like told? So much clunky exposition, isn't
34:54
it? So I mean, the worst is that all
34:55
500 of us? That's just the worst bit of
34:58
exposition ever. Yeah, and it's like there's only
35:02
ever eight people on screen at a time.
35:04
So you know where the 500? Sort of if they had the money,
35:08
they'd be doing like, you know, that that sort of big tower in
35:11
the Coruscant city where all Yoda and all the the Jedi people
35:16
and all the ships were zooming about and it all looked very
35:18
impressive. And it was just sort of similar
35:20
scenes to this. All the people together.
35:23
That's what that's what they do if they had the money.
35:25
But what you get instead is four people or five people sitting on
35:28
shit chairs in ABBC Studio. Yeah.
35:33
Yeah, that is just so. It's so bland and so.
35:37
Oh, OK, so Paul Barrow's Speaking of that.
35:41
Just as I said, it's so bland. Paul Barrow's turned the tinsel
35:44
on. You know, kudos to Paul Darrow,
35:48
all right, for realizing this is a dog and he's going to
35:51
entertain you as much as possible.
35:53
Well, that was his famous quote. I will turn it off on Ben
35:56
because it's shit. I would argue this maybe shit
36:00
before that as well, but you know of it.
36:03
You have a quote from the college I love is when Colin
36:05
goes. When did this acting star ever
36:07
go out of fashion and Paul Darrow just goes.
36:10
I'm not sure it ever has, you know.
36:14
Oh, this fella is giving it all and then some and they please.
36:18
I might be a big mistake, that great one.
36:21
Have you ever been? Covered in tinsel like that.
36:25
Not quite in that fashion. I mean, I've never purposefully
36:29
stepped into my death like most of the people in this story do.
36:33
I mean you, you'd. Disguise a tinsel, wouldn't you,
36:36
if you were a director? Yeah, well, at least make it
36:39
look like they're not. The actors aren't stepping into
36:43
the time lash themselves, which you've kind of wanted to happen
36:46
so. Oh.
36:49
Oh look, there's that nice chat from Sharda Professor.
36:53
It's a big problem. I mean, not big problem, because
36:57
no, we've never seen anything like this before in any science.
37:01
Fixed him maybe? What's that?
37:03
The governor from Avengers on virus?
37:05
What are you talking about? Yeah, no, it's not the macro
37:08
terror. And it's not.
37:10
Yeah, well, back to him. Stuart Black of him.
37:14
It's definitely not the macro terror.
37:16
Oh, so this tardish team well seen once, it seems.
37:22
Plural is an extended version, but if the exact same story
37:27
beats of the Attack of the Cybermen, TARDIS sequence and
37:31
Attack of the Cybermen. The Doctor is fixing one of the
37:34
roundels and there's a bunch of wives.
37:37
Him and Perry argue about whether they should go on
37:39
holiday and then as well later see there's a sort of junkie
37:43
special effect as their foot as the TARDIS is sort of thrown
37:47
about a bit. It's like if you're going to
37:50
write a TARDIS fantasy, you did this much quicker in Attack of
37:55
the Cybermen and you're just sort of taking that that scene
37:59
and going, why don't we take that one machine and make it 8
38:03
different scenes that we're going to split out amongst the
38:06
fans. You know what the trouble is in
38:08
22? Because they haven't quite
38:11
adjusted to two episodes of 45 minutes.
38:14
Yeah, they need to set up a lot because there's only one first
38:20
part and then, and then it's over.
38:21
Yeah, the second part, exactly. So the doctor has to wait quite
38:25
a bit to get into the story. So I had to keep finding
38:27
excuses. Walking around a wall in
38:29
Revelation, you know, Zytan 7, running out inventors and Varos.
38:34
And it's just so frustrating because there's so little
38:35
column, right? You just want to get him in the
38:37
action. Especially yeah they I mean
38:41
obviously in the opposite is basically constantly on screen
38:45
and constantly in the action, which is, you know a sort of
38:49
different approach. Now this theme here, which is
38:55
the mailing and the Mick Cross sort of discussing their secret
39:01
plans in sequel he's. Playing the mailing, he seems
39:05
like he's come out of some period drama, doesn't he?
39:07
Sort of declaring everything. Yeah, well, it's a theme that
39:10
was probably written a lot better than the staged or
39:15
performed. Obviously you've got nonsense
39:19
sci-fi terms like delta configuration rays and stuff
39:22
like that, which you'll just like no junk call that junk call
39:26
that. But the the impulse of the the
39:31
narrative Dr. of the scene is an interesting one.
39:34
Just the idea that, you know, this is we have to hide.
39:38
You can't talk in part in public about these things.
39:42
You know, the again, you want to see stuff like the Malin's wife
39:48
who's on life support or something like that.
39:50
You need to see stuff like that. A few less TARDIS scenes and a
39:54
trip to the hospital maybe? Well, yeah, just putting more
39:57
money into into filming these sort of things.
40:00
But I think the the. The the thought is there, the
40:04
the intention is there. The dramatic idea of one of them
40:07
having a clandestine conversation and two him
40:11
diverting the power from sick people to power the.
40:15
Borat experience. Well, let's see that they're
40:17
good ideas. So are they?
40:18
They're not bad ideas. No, definitely.
40:21
Let's see in in mustardy babies or in be in any new home, we
40:27
would see that. We would see the sick people,
40:29
but we would see power bars draming and we would see the
40:34
damage that this is causing, but always see.
40:38
Why would we see? That we can watch that console
40:40
wobble up. Precariously, and the actor
40:43
desperately try not to break the set.
40:46
Because he breaks, the Finland man has to put it back on the
40:50
fence. The one thing I will say about
40:51
this approach and I don't know his name, the actor who plays
40:54
Mid Cross because a lot of time in Doctor Who 2 actors have to
40:56
sell big ideas like this because stood out the money or the will
41:00
to do it. I think he's pretty good.
41:02
I do think he's a good actor. He's in the load of nonsense,
41:05
but the bit where he goes, you're only a figurehead.
41:07
You know he is playing it well. He's already the best.
41:15
I mean, dismissing Gene. Anne Crowley, Yes.
41:22
Oh, no. He's dangling on me.
41:24
Oblivion. Oh.
41:27
We'll get there. But yeah, no, this is actual,
41:31
you know, it's a concept of conflict, and I think that's to
41:36
be a mybuster. I mean, one thing I will say
41:39
about Time Lash, it does. And now Perry says it's sort of
41:42
matte grey corridors and they are.
41:45
But one thing I love about 22, and I think it's something to do
41:48
with Collins Co, is they just pack it full of colour because
41:52
so many of those Davidson stories were so dull looking.
41:58
Yeah, that's so funny. It's like this place is grey and
42:01
mad and lifeless and I'm like this place, not all the other
42:04
places that we've had for the last two or three years.
42:09
We skipped over one of the worst bits of exposition, which is
42:12
the, but I thought before that had banned all mirrors.
42:18
That might come in handy though, for later when the Doctor Nicks
42:21
a mirror from her. Yeah, it's just like, I suppose
42:24
the absence of a mirror is a difficult thing to to show
42:29
visually, but how do you make a set and go?
42:33
It's unusual that this set doesn't have a mirror in it.
42:38
I don't know how you represent that.
42:40
Well, yeah, but like just the line could be better.
42:42
All you need is someone I don't know have someone doing their
42:45
hair and discreetly and someone going you know you're not
42:49
supposed to have those just like.
42:50
Yeah, people even, you know, someone goes to the bathroom,
42:53
but there's no mirror in the bathroom because they need to.
42:56
Yeah, or something. You know, it's very telling,
42:58
Jack, that in preparation for doing this commentary, I read
43:01
the time Lash, not. Yes, I saw that.
43:03
Yes, you're doing that. I thought he's doing that for my
43:06
benefit. So what did he knows?
43:09
That he excised a lot of the dialogue and told a lot of it
43:13
through prose and it came across so much better with all that
43:16
informative dialogue. Oh, it's terrible.
43:18
If it's Len McCoy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:20
And he loves the term a pregnant pause because he uses it about
43:25
five times. I didn't not enjoy it though.
43:30
No, I mean, you know, well, you don't, you also don't not enjoy
43:35
this on television. But yes.
43:38
So this, all of this visual framing, this is dab loss,
43:43
right? This is just dab loss.
43:46
It's the exact same visual framing, the close-ups on the
43:50
sort of withered hands, the genetic mutation experiment,
43:55
things that we're doing, the fact that this story was
43:59
originally meant to have dialects in it.
44:01
I just sort of look at it and go this.
44:04
Yeah. And obviously we'll get to Dabos
44:07
next week as well. And it's just like, what?
44:10
Why did you not go? Hey, maybe we shouldn't just
44:13
make him like Dabos again? Oh I love the way his chair
44:18
slides across the room there because he kills.
44:20
Him. But The thing is, in Revelation,
44:25
they don't do all of those usual tricks of Davros.
44:27
Today, he's stuck in that tank, swiveling around like a lunatic.
44:30
Well, that's the one for the what 1 the clitique of the tab
44:34
of revelation is the Dalits and Davos just sort of the Pierre.
44:38
There's no might build up. It's just like go cut to the
44:41
Dalits and Davos being in it, which is like.
44:45
I do. I do agree that I do absolutely
44:47
agree. And I never thought of any of
44:49
this about Dave Ross before this conversation.
44:52
But those things with Davos work like they're they're a cliche
44:55
and they're used to it again and again because they work.
44:57
And I think they work here as well, right up until when you
45:01
see the Borat, which is a fantastic bit.
45:03
Of Oh yeah, I mean, that's the unambiguous positive of the
45:07
story. And the performance as well,
45:09
because he's not overplaying it, and that's great.
45:12
It's strange as well that the old man isn't the same actors.
45:18
The boy had actor before. Oh yes.
45:20
OK, so we're now in the round. The Tardis.
45:26
God. So yeah, this is another
45:30
confusing thing, the idea of mailing not being the guy's name
45:35
of the title. And I guess that's another piece
45:40
of the world building that isn't quite solidified.
45:43
It's just what is a mailing? What?
45:45
What? What do you do?
45:46
Are you just sort of the boss? Is it just like president?
45:50
Is it you know what? What is space name space?
45:54
Name for a position of authority.
45:56
Jack, I'm so sorry, but Joe Ford has suffered a fatal seizure.
46:03
Yeah. Paul Barrow.
46:06
Yeah. So Speaking of people who are in
46:08
sort of things that were bad, Doctor Who is the man from Blade
46:12
7? You are going to piss off a lot
46:15
of people saying that all. Right.
46:17
Yeah. Well, you know, So what I mean
46:21
Paul Barrow, obviously we know that Colin Baker's in Blade
46:25
seven, hand it out early. Maybe this is some cosmic
46:30
dependiums from Paul Barrow, but obviously we know this one.
46:34
If you know, Richard preferred thing, which again feeds into
46:39
the, you know, Shakespearean Robert Holmes, Eric Faywood,
46:44
physical grotesquely equals evil thing that we do quite a lot.
46:53
Obviously we know that GMT didn't like the Paul Darrow
46:55
thing. Colin Baker was a bit confused
46:58
by it. What do do we think that is
47:04
there? Do we just want him to do what
47:07
he's doing or is there any way of doing that script?
47:12
That would be. That's all.
47:14
What? If he wasn't declaring every
47:17
line in the way that he did, the entertainment factor of time
47:21
Lash would diminish by 9/10. OK.
47:26
Yeah, people about buffing Sam, Yeah.
47:28
I mean, John, Nathan Turner, you have delivered some ripe
47:32
performances as a producer in your time with your various
47:35
celebrity guest castings. Barrel Reed, you know, Richard
47:39
Breyers, I mean, it's the best thing about this.
47:42
I love him and Colin on the screen together, trying to outdo
47:45
each other. Like Colin.
47:46
He came into Blake 7 in City on the Edge of the World.
47:49
I think that's the name of the episode.
47:51
And he plays Babe and the Butcher this insanely over the
47:55
top. And there's no way that Darrow
47:57
can outact him on the screen because he's covered head to toe
48:00
in lever and studs and he's got a massive fucking gun he's going
48:04
to blow everybody up with. So I think Darrow comes in and
48:07
goes, right Colin? Now it's my turn.
48:09
Yeah, was that? I mean, what are you meant to do
48:11
with the character called Babe and the Butcher?
48:14
You know it's the only way you can take.
48:18
Is every actor's dream? Yeah.
48:23
And I mean, I suppose you might have a Paul Della performance
48:26
then like a sort of Veena performance, which is almost in
48:30
the opposite direction of like no life or anything.
48:33
Oh, no. Because when they're all in the
48:35
scene together, right? You've got Veena, who's vacant.
48:39
You've got Mick Ross, who's naturalistic.
48:42
Yeah. Who's?
48:44
In the atmosphere, Oh my God, Pennant, could you not say, can
48:48
we have some uniformity here with the?
48:49
Performance, yeah, you've kind of got a question.
48:52
What's happening? Obviously everyone is just sort.
48:56
Of I know it's bad, like I'm not going to say time national, but
49:00
it's kind of fun to watch all the clashes.
49:04
Yes, yeah, time clash. Performance clash.
49:12
Oh look, the doctors finally arrived.
49:14
Look. Well, yes, it should be the
49:15
beginning of episode 2 or four of those, because the episode 1
49:20
or 4 Cliff, that should probably be the boy echoing Oh yes, the
49:24
Doctor has returned to this planet.
49:27
We're at that point, we're at like 22 minutes, so yeah.
49:31
But that would mean they've been in the TARDIS for the whole of
49:33
episode 1. Well, that's mentioned from
49:36
Varos is the same, isn't it our name of Thomas Well.
49:39
I mean, in Revelation they do come out of the TARDIS.
49:42
I don't know, just walk around. Yeah, they're basically in the
49:44
tall. This is basically the same
49:46
function. It's a few hands, a lot.
49:48
Prettier. There's a lot.
49:49
Yeah, Yeah. Plus that lovely bit where they
49:51
go over the wall with all the double entendres.
49:57
So, oh, OK, now we're getting into a little bit of Ian Levine
50:02
continuity error with him going Oh yes, Doctor, there's only one
50:07
of you travelling with you this time and apart from when it was
50:11
Joe Grant, when there's still only one of you.
50:14
Troubling. Would it surprise you to know
50:16
that Big Finish have in fact answered that question?
50:20
It would not surprise me now. It was Joe, Grant and Mike.
50:24
Yates Oh, great. Yeah, that's, I don't know why,
50:31
it's just been. Sergeant Bennett, I've just
50:34
offered my holes. No Sergeant in the TARDIS.
50:36
Oh, Jack, look at. That so far.
50:43
It's hideous. Well, I mean, yes, it fits him
50:47
in a sort of strange way. Now, here's a missed opportunity
50:51
for Perry to do the sort of botany thing.
50:54
It's like, Hey, do you remember when you went on tour this wiki
50:58
and it told you that Perry was a botanist?
51:01
Well, you didn't see that in any of the stories.
51:03
So now, but but even that they bought because obviously they're
51:10
they're car fell plants, not earth plants.
51:12
So Perry doesn't know what any of these plants are either,
51:16
which is like, what? What are weird?
51:18
What's oldies is in her first story is established about the
51:22
botany and then in Andersoni attack of assignment vengeance
51:25
of Varos, we forget about it. You should forget and then in
51:29
Mark of Irani, Pip and Jane use it to educate and.
51:31
Yeah, and it's fine. I'm fine, Yeah.
51:33
Part of the climax as well. She's going off to collect the
51:36
leaves, isn't she? To make a draft and then invent,
51:39
remember. Revelation, Revelation.
51:41
That's a very nice bit at the start where she's looking at the
51:44
stuff of life and that's important to the plot later on.
51:46
Great here, you're right. It's just like someone's handed
51:49
them. So not Perry and said, but put
51:52
something about botany in. Put something about flowers, but
51:54
they're not flowers that she knows about.
51:56
So, you know, it's like making a character a mechanic and then
52:00
going, here's a rocket ship that you don't know anything about,
52:03
but you're a mechanic. So, you know, hold this Stanner.
52:09
One of the bits that made me how though, was when Paul Darrow
52:12
goes it secrets an acidic fluid, he throws it in Collins face.
52:20
He knows. He knows exactly what he's
52:24
doing. Yeah, he's you've got a meme
52:27
clower I'm in right now when you're talking to me a little
52:31
bands or hands puppet. He's the sort of actor you don't
52:35
want to be in a room with because everyone's looking at
52:37
Darrow, right? Yeah, well, this.
52:41
Oh, the band rule. Look at him.
52:50
Look at those chairs. Yeah, well, there's a little one
52:54
and the big one. What you certainly.
52:57
Assume the big one is for the mailing, yeah?
52:59
Yes, what? Yes, what?
53:01
You have to be here. So why is he?
53:05
Why is he asking? He wants the bandrals to attack,
53:07
right? Yes, which is a good question.
53:10
Why do you want the band of food?
53:12
Mate? You're on the planet.
53:14
I don't want to leave the planet.
53:16
No, I've just remembered because in Part 2 the Borat basically
53:19
wants to wipe out all the Kafflers, doesn't he?
53:21
And he just wants a mutated Perry to get married to and have
53:25
a life just the two of them on the planet.
53:26
But the million Techer doesn't want that.
53:29
Well, he doesn't know he's. Just the 1,000,000.
53:32
Oh, OK. He's just doing what he's told.
53:36
He just, he loves the power, Jack, you know.
53:39
Yeah, it's interesting when Paul Dalla decides to do what he's
53:42
told versus what he's not. Told Oh, this is the laziest.
53:47
Yes, since I've never felt him off.
53:50
No. No grammar, no syntax.
53:53
He's got a sentence he's got. Someone there just walks in and
53:56
hands her a bit of paper. Since I've never felt him off,
54:02
if you've messaged me this morning and said Joe Ford on the
54:06
Zoom call, I wouldn't have. I've been like, what time's the
54:10
Zoom call you would have been? Are you going to send me to do?
54:13
Yeah. What are we talking about?
54:15
Yeah. I like the idea that the Doctor
54:18
and Perry went to Fouch and Rocks and waiting for the next
54:20
10 years. Yeah.
54:27
So where are we now? Look at Colin and Darrow.
54:33
I mean they are trying so hard to make each other lower.
54:37
It's like a weird version of, you know, those stories of
54:41
Arnold Schwarzenegger and Carl Weber's So I'm measure each
54:46
other's biceps on the set of Predator.
54:49
This is like an incredibly low rent version of that.
54:53
Can I, can I say something about Colin?
54:55
Right? Because I think he knows the bad
54:58
script. Like when the six Doctor
55:00
handbook came out and they interviewed him for that, he
55:03
said yeah, tireless. We, we knew it was bad, but we
55:05
made the best of it. And he wasn't getting enough
55:07
rehearsal time because JNT was taking him away from the.
55:10
Producer for the panto, Yeah. Still, he's still commanding,
55:16
he's still funny, he's still giving it everything.
55:19
Even though this is absolute bobbins, I respect Colin so
55:22
much. Yeah, I think he's of all the
55:25
doctors, he's obviously the one, one of the ones that's done the
55:28
most sort of interaction with fandom and keeping up with, you
55:33
know, keeping up with a program that largely wanted nothing to
55:37
do with him. To the point where they
55:39
literally fired him and then sort of scrambled to try and
55:43
unfire him to get him to come back, which is another like
55:47
crazy, you know, been fired from your job.
55:50
And then they've asked, oh, actually can you come back for
55:53
like 4 weeks and then but. Can you do us a favour on your
55:57
way out? Yeah, and of course he said no.
56:01
Can you hand over to your successor all the work that
56:04
you've been doing? Thank you very much.
56:05
Yes. Fuck you.
56:07
He. Said yeah, No, I'd say yeah.
56:13
I mean just awful beige cream. Corridors.
56:19
But they have made a point of that though, haven't they?
56:21
Like, I know it doesn't make the story any more visually
56:24
interesting. Yeah, Well, I suppose, yeah.
56:28
Can you be stylistically bland? That's those.
56:30
Look at all those triangles on the wall.
56:34
What more do you want? You have to turn it, open the
56:36
door and it came quite nice. Yeah, well, because the lights
56:41
are down all of a sudden, we've got a bit.
56:42
Of atmosphere. It's a shame because obviously
56:44
we're still on film for experience.
56:47
Maybe we could have done a day or two in a cave.
56:51
Because if you think about something like, I don't know,
56:54
the mutants or something like that, but those cave scenes come
56:58
alive or planet with Daleks where you know, when the ice
57:01
came, it's just suddenly it's a different kind of atmosphere.
57:07
It's maybe this. Wasn't it in nerve shock?
57:10
You know, suddenly the lights were down, we were in caves and
57:13
it all looked great. I mean this isn't that great,
57:15
but it's better than the car fell sets.
57:18
Yeah, well, yeah. I mean a.
57:21
Bit different, yeah. Can I ask you a question, Jack?
57:24
Have you ever been lost in a dark cave and threatened with an
57:28
enormous phallus? No, luckily not.
57:33
So you can't really identify with Perry in the scene then?
57:36
No, I think in many, many ways I can't identify with basically
57:41
anything but perfectly in brown goes as.
57:44
Well, I mean, I'm going to say this from the heart.
57:46
I'm very pleased about that. I mean, this is probably the the
57:53
deer of what they put her through right in this story.
57:57
Yeah, I mean, I mean explicit breathing plan.
58:01
I suppose this is quite by them, you know, I know we can stretch
58:07
what being for a family audience means, but this idea of
58:13
effectively we're going to implement the companions of
58:16
breed over the new race of an alien thing is just like too
58:20
much in the wrong direction, just too much in the wrong.
58:23
Well, Speaking of the wrong direction, let's talk about the
58:28
right direction, Herbert. Oh I love Herbert the story.
58:33
Tony takes a massive upswing now.
58:35
Yes, like, oh, an actual character and.
58:37
He's like, like, I didn't know the first time I watched this,
58:40
that was HG Wells, and that's bad on me.
58:43
Well, yes, because there was the Morlocks references and The Time
58:46
Machine and everything I went into it.
58:49
But I do think that's a very likeable turn from the actor.
58:56
I would lost. I wonder whether, Oh yes, we've
59:00
just had the Terminator Birmingham towards showing up.
59:04
It's not a bad effect, is it? No, it's, it's a shame.
59:08
It's completely blowing out the cameras.
59:14
That's all in the studio. Almost a bit muffy, isn't it
59:17
just something happening from Part 2 in Part 1?
59:20
Yeah, yes. And it's sort of and and they do
59:24
call back to it, quite honestly. Sorry, back to Herbert.
59:29
But well, I'm, I'm sorry, yes, I was going to say I'm still I'm
59:33
still with saves on at the Falchion Rock.
59:35
So I'm I'm not back to Herbert yet.
59:38
But so we think that Herbert could maybe be.
59:43
I thought it might have been interesting to switch from HP
59:46
Wells to because the whole thing is he's doing the whole
59:49
spiritualism mumbo jumbo stuff. And the kind of thing I don't
59:57
know about was sort of who HG Wells was as a as a person.
1:00:02
I mean, I'm not saying this is great pretenses to be a new who
1:00:07
S celebrity historical, but maybe if you turned it into
1:00:12
someone like. Arthur Conan Doyle, who was a
1:00:16
lot more into spiritualism and to the point where he sort of
1:00:21
believed in genuinely and, you know, splice and fairies and
1:00:25
things like that. What would we be doing there?
1:00:27
The story. Wouldn't.
1:00:27
Well, who is the doctor? Who is the doctor?
1:00:31
The sex doctor in particular is an obstinate person with an I'll
1:00:37
bedside manner who is desperate to find the right answers and in
1:00:42
his pursuit of proof is a little bit abrasive with an unwilling
1:00:47
sidekick. He's Sherlock Holmes.
1:00:49
Somewhat homeless, you might say.
1:00:51
Exactly, so you could indubitably you could just have
1:00:54
Herbert or Herbert author follow him around and go oh a guy is a
1:01:01
bit of an arsehole who actually gets things done and is still a
1:01:06
hero even though he's really annoying and stuffy enough time.
1:01:11
Now you've got me really excited.
1:01:12
I want to reconfigure the whole story time Lash and we'll have a
1:01:15
proper lock room mystery. Exactly, so it's it's author,
1:01:20
but we're following Robin and Herbert.
1:01:22
But whilst Herbert's here, I think David John has a great
1:01:26
performance. He's bring him a lot of life to
1:01:30
it. He's just, I think he's.
1:01:32
Genuinely funny when he starts trying to exercise the doctor
1:01:35
and he's just sidestepping him. I was laughing out loud.
1:01:38
That's the one moment where you're like, OK, Penman Roberts
1:01:41
had to be planned for that and hit and they had one.
1:01:45
Moment. Yeah, and this is quite a nice
1:01:52
set, bearing in mind there's basically no use for it.
1:01:55
But we have it in this one scene and then it's done.
1:01:58
I think it's quite nice. I think it's the best set of the
1:02:01
story on the inner sanctum. I think it's the best set of the
1:02:05
story. Well, because the disorders can
1:02:07
do this, right? They can do a study in the 12th
1:02:09
century. I'm sure this is probably from
1:02:11
some other production, but you know I'm.
1:02:15
What period drama you're doing, right?
1:02:17
We'll have that. Just leave it up tonight, all
1:02:19
right? Yeah, backgrounds outside
1:02:26
window. Here he goes with his cross and
1:02:28
his Bible. Do you know what, though?
1:02:30
It's very telling that I I always say they should have kept
1:02:33
Hugo Lang and Doctor Who after The Twin Dilemma and had the
1:02:36
Doctor, Hugo Lang and Perry because there would have been a
1:02:38
lot more balance in the TARDIS and Perry wouldn't have been
1:02:41
bullied as much as she. Was well, Herbert could
1:02:44
definitely. Herbert So there's a a surrogate
1:02:47
male companion in every story. You get Terry Malloy in Attack
1:02:51
of the Side Men. Oh, John Doe.
1:02:54
You get No, you get John Doe invention on virus, you get Luke
1:02:56
Ward and Mark of the Rani, you get Herbert and this.
1:03:00
What have I left out, Jamie? In The Two Doctors there's
1:03:02
always a bloke. It could have been a Hugo the
1:03:05
whole time. Yeah I don't know who you take
1:03:08
off of the revelation of the Darwin, but I'd I'd probably
1:03:12
take or see me and Bostock as a parent just have the Doctor or
1:03:16
see me Bostock and Perry would be much crowded TARDIS from
1:03:21
there. Oh yeah, that.
1:03:21
Well, that's the moment. But we've just seen that in
1:03:25
time. Exercise, the Doctor and.
1:03:27
Like in the book, yeah, there is just moments for time Lash to
1:03:31
breathe a little bit as well because this bit here where
1:03:35
they're sitting around having a drink and just talking, it's all
1:03:37
just an exposition in this because it's just to get us from
1:03:40
A to B. But in the book, there's a
1:03:42
paragraph where they explain she stays with them all night and
1:03:45
she tells them all about her and she's feeling a bit homesick.
1:03:49
And it's just all of these extra details.
1:03:51
And I'm like. Yeah, see.
1:03:52
Now that's what Russell would do, right?
1:03:55
Yeah, and this would be prime episode 2 or 4 Material split.
1:04:01
Nichols and Colin Nicholas would say voucher monks and Colin is
1:04:07
with Herbert and Vima and Trima. Get back and back to episode 2
1:04:12
of Four Material with. Brazilian, so plot obsessed.
1:04:20
Which is strange because this has such a boring plot.
1:04:24
What are you obsessing over here?
1:04:27
I mean, that guard there, look, he didn't even bother to like
1:04:30
come out of the shadows. He was just standing there with
1:04:32
his guard. Hello.
1:04:33
Didn't mean take his butterfly now off his head.
1:04:35
Oh, here we go back with Herbert.
1:04:37
Yeah, finally for that you're at cinema for.
1:04:41
A machine that transcends time. Time itself, oh, that's another
1:04:45
big thing. So that's the big Herbert Wells,
1:04:49
The Time Machine. OK, I'll see what we're doing
1:04:52
here. Which begs the question, in
1:04:55
Attack of the Cybermen, the Doctor changes the Tardis's form
1:05:00
so the TARDIS can become a piano or grandfather clock or
1:05:03
whatever. A.
1:05:04
Bit of a Labour joke, but it works.
1:05:06
In The Time Machine, or at least in the film, but I've seen at
1:05:10
The Time Machine, what does the what does The Time Machine look
1:05:13
like? It looks like a little chair
1:05:16
with a big thing about whatever. So why don't you move?
1:05:21
Because the change in the TARDIS outline from to the tackle
1:05:26
beside Men, that subplot goes nowhere.
1:05:29
It has nothing to do with tackle beside Men.
1:05:31
Take that, put that in Time Lash, and all of a sudden the
1:05:36
Doctor changes the TARDIS so that the TARDIS looks like the
1:05:41
plot from the film of The Time Machine, so that Herbert looks
1:05:45
at that and goes, oh, a time machine, but looks like an
1:05:49
ordinary chair with a big fill in front of it.
1:05:52
And then it gets that idea to put that in the book of The Time
1:05:57
Machine instead. Instead, Herbert looks at The
1:06:01
Time Machine as stressed like a police box, and that doesn't
1:06:05
impact anything. And there's bigger on the
1:06:08
inside, the outside. HG Wells didn't do anything
1:06:11
about bigger on the inside than the outside.
1:06:14
It's like I don't want the doctor to come back, so I shall
1:06:17
alter this just a little. Bit for you it was.
1:06:20
So overbearing I don't want to see him again.
1:06:23
Yes, you've just had, you know, in this year with Doctor Who,
1:06:29
the Doctor changed the Tardis's look for no reason.
1:06:33
They just want take that, put it in this story and have it have a
1:06:37
reason. They just weren't structuring
1:06:39
the seasons like that. They weren't like they should,
1:06:41
but weirdly enough, next year they are.
1:06:44
Yeah, exactly. That sort of thing would be like
1:06:46
in they. They'd think about that and then
1:06:48
they'd put it at the end of the. Yeah, although Givens what some
1:06:53
people would say, the hash they make of Trial of the Time Lord,
1:06:55
I love Trial of the Time Lord and I think they pay off quite a
1:06:57
lot of the stuff they. Say yeah.
1:06:59
Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I quite like
1:07:02
it because by the end of it, I don't really care about the
1:07:06
actual trial of the Time Lord. So by the time I get to the
1:07:10
ultimate phone, I love it because it's just wacky shit.
1:07:15
We finally stopped caring about this boring trial at the time.
1:07:20
Then we're doing just Blackpool Beach and those sorts of things.
1:07:24
Rude plant monsters. I'm there.
1:07:26
Oh bloody hell, Collins reaction now to I know, I know.
1:07:33
Did you know it's bigger on the outside?
1:07:38
It's a lovely, but it doesn't make sense because how did HG
1:07:42
Wells break into the Because he's coming from the back of the
1:07:47
TARDIS. How can he get all the way to
1:07:50
the back of the TARDIS without the Doctor knowing that he was
1:07:52
in the TARDIS? There's a cutscene, you know,
1:07:55
where, when they no no, no, wait, wait where?
1:07:58
They go outside the heart and Vena, who is a, you know, horny
1:08:02
cow bag, grabs the doctor and throws him against the wall.
1:08:05
They start, and at that time Herbert tip toes past.
1:08:09
Yeah. And because he's so white, like
1:08:11
the TARDIS wolves, he just stands against the wolves and I
1:08:14
don't. See him?
1:08:15
Yeah, of course. Unfortunately, JMT said no thank
1:08:19
you. So that team had to get cut out.
1:08:21
We didn't. Want everyone thinking Colin was
1:08:24
as rampant as all the other aliens in the universe?
1:08:27
Did we? OK, so we are well we.
1:08:33
Oh yeah. Have you got the this great
1:08:36
mcaffin of a then? Can I say this, this
1:08:44
cliffhanger? Yeah.
1:08:45
You know, you said about, you know, building up to a great
1:08:47
cliffhanger. That's what we want on Saturday
1:08:48
night. We're back on Saturday night now
1:08:50
with this season. Everything about it is really
1:08:55
terrible. Like the dialogue is terrible,
1:08:58
the performances are hammy. I don't believe in the jeopardy.
1:09:02
Oh my God, It's one of the most deliriously watchable moments of
1:09:05
the entire season. Unpleasant journey.
1:09:12
Yeah, but better time, less. I love the way he does it with
1:09:15
his hand, you know, do. You have a sort of emphatically
1:09:20
gesture like that. Yeah.
1:09:23
I hope so, You know, bring out your inner darrow.
1:09:27
Well done. Well.
1:09:29
Done. Thank you.
1:09:30
Oh, so microcephalic apostate, another Eric.
1:09:35
So microcephalic, I think means that you have a sort of smaller
1:09:40
skull or even smaller brain. So the idea an apostate means,
1:09:46
you know, you sort of reject the principles or religion or, or
1:09:51
rules that you've come by. So I guess what he's trying to
1:09:55
say is you're an idiot and you sort of don't believe in
1:09:58
anything I think is what he's trying to say.
1:10:01
Unfortunately, Eric, Say what? It's a little bit like that
1:10:06
episode of Friends where Joey starts to use a thesaurus, but
1:10:10
he doesn't know what any of the words mean.
1:10:12
That's kind of what Eric say what does, which is where
1:10:16
Microsoft power, the capital state comes from.
1:10:18
It's just like, why don't you just call him a fraud?
1:10:22
You're you're a pathetic. Yeah, one thing you know, I
1:10:26
wonder if Eric Clay was like, we need an insult.
1:10:30
Hang on a minute. I'll phone Pip and Jane.
1:10:32
Hello. And so we missed the
1:10:37
cliffhanger, which is now entirely final, or the
1:10:40
cliffhangers were crashed through him on Colin's base
1:10:44
here. We've got a classroom in on the
1:10:47
time Lash for some reason. Yeah.
1:10:51
And then we clap to Colin. It's just like it does.
1:10:54
Remind me I need to put up my Christmas tree, you know?
1:10:57
Well, yes, yeah, unfortunately, now what?
1:11:03
We we didn't. You noticed the familiar name,
1:11:06
but we just had to go past him. Tell me.
1:11:09
Tell me. Production Manager on this
1:11:12
story, the certain Alan Wearing who would go on to be the
1:11:17
director of Great Show him a Galaxy Go Fly and Survival, who
1:11:22
I'm sure was taking notes about this entire production on what
1:11:26
not to do and then. He was sabotaging his like,
1:11:29
every direction. And they go to J&T.
1:11:32
Just give me a shot. I can do better than this shit
1:11:34
all right? Yeah, and then he ran into Ian
1:11:38
the beam and was like, oh, I'm obsessive nerd who won't stop
1:11:43
categorising friends. That reminds me.
1:11:46
MMM, just I have sniffed this creative, quiet man.
1:11:51
Or Wizkid. Yeah, well, Wizkid is someone
1:11:57
else I I won't share on camera, I think.
1:12:02
No, but you know what, right? We've got to do a McCoy at some
1:12:06
point. Don't worry.
1:12:07
Oh yeah, So much to unpick there.
1:12:10
I mean, one of those we could do because obviously we've got
1:12:13
greatest showers longer and you know, but anyway, sorry.
1:12:17
That was delirious or thoroughly.
1:12:19
Enjoyed, I don't know if I enjoy it, but it was delirious.
1:12:24
So now that we've had the actual problem, Clifana, yes, I guess
1:12:28
my question would have to be obviously because of the nature
1:12:31
of the season, we have a lot less Clifanas other than the
1:12:37
obvious great one, which is the vengeance on that clip Anna.
1:12:41
That's the undisputed best clip Anna of the season.
1:12:46
One of the best clip Anna's in doctors entire history.
1:12:49
One of the rare times where it's completely, you know,
1:12:53
deliberately planned and pulled off.
1:12:56
Other than that one, which is the easy choice.
1:12:59
What's your next favorite clip? Anna from season 22.
1:13:04
I think the attack of the Simon was horrible that I hate that
1:13:07
Terry Malloy gets his skull bashed in like it's just very
1:13:10
unpleasant. The mark of the Ronnie one is
1:13:14
quite dynamic. It's well shot.
1:13:17
Although I don't ever believe that Colin is going to fit in
1:13:19
that hole, so I don't think he's in any danger whatsoever.
1:13:23
We might not fit in the time. Holla Styrin.
1:13:26
Oh no. My next favorite, and it is a
1:13:28
troubling moment, but I just love it because it's just so
1:13:32
Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It's shock eye chasing Perry
1:13:36
down that hill with that enormous fucking knife.
1:13:39
It's just like what is going on? Now I can't remember, does that
1:13:44
is the actual last shot? Is it the clip, the shock eye
1:13:48
shot? No, it's Perry.
1:13:50
It's shooting down on Perry. I think you have to end it on.
1:13:54
Or maybe it is I? Think it's Perry, but it is.
1:13:58
It's great the way the running down the hill, the the Spanish
1:14:02
guitar go in and all. Of that, I mean, that's the only
1:14:05
other one that was like, this was planned to end on this
1:14:09
moment, you know? Like the polystyrene?
1:14:13
But. Yeah, I mean, Davros laughing
1:14:16
his head off about it makes it work for me because he's just so
1:14:20
twisted by that point. He's like, there were so many
1:14:23
subplots in Revelation of Torrents, like there were 58
1:14:26
different Cliff angles you could have had in the society.
1:14:30
I think you could have ended on Professor Stenglass if you
1:14:33
really wanted to decide, you know, being mutated by.
1:14:37
Yeah. Do you imagine there was a lot
1:14:38
of sort of tinsel related murders at the time?
1:14:43
The only reason I'm asking is because a million people came
1:14:46
back, a million million came back for episode 2.
1:14:49
So close up on that tinsel had a huge impact on the people
1:14:54
watching that, enough to talk to their friends and go did you
1:14:56
watch Doctor Wholey yesterday, you know?
1:14:58
Did you watch what this decaying, dying husk of the
1:15:02
show? The story that's pretty off the
1:15:04
air? Did you watch what they did
1:15:05
yesterday? Trust me, you're never going to
1:15:09
see anything worse than this switch on next week.
1:15:12
Well no, you're literally one because it won't be that next
1:15:14
year, so you literally might never see anything this bad
1:15:17
again. On that, on that rather sombre
1:15:22
note, because we've laughed a lot Episode 1, should we skip on
1:15:27
into Episode 2 and see what delights Time Lash has to offer?
1:15:31
Yes, in improved Time Lash fashion will We'll have to flow
1:15:39
Part 1 into the Time Lash and get ready for what's coming
1:15:44
next. I'm sure it'll be very
1:15:45
interesting and it won't run out of steam after 15 minutes.
1:15:50
It will be a box of delights. Oh no, that's the two doctors
1:15:55
because that's got a pad to tell me.
1:15:56
I'll. Cut it there.
1:15:59
I'll cut it there.