Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Are women absolved of accountability enough? Debate night! | X Space

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Are women absolved of accountability enough? Debate night! | X Space · Honey Badger Radio

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  Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to Honey Badger Radio. My name
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is Brian. I'm here with Alison and I'm still getting
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: things set up here. I want to make sure that
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  Speaker 1: the people in the vertical can hear me, so I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: just adding the appropriate, okay source to that. So you
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: should you should not be able to see me, but
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: you should be able to hear me, simply because we're adapting.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I had to adapt the layout for what we are doing.
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  Speaker 1: And so right now I'm here with Alison and and
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  Speaker 1: I'm in the Twitter space. Oh, I should add a
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  Speaker 1: link to the Twitter space. I should have gotten that too,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna drop it in the description of the
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  Speaker 1: video so that people can join. That's probably something that
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  Speaker 1: I should do. So let me just drop the link,
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  Speaker 1: the correct link for the Twitter space, because that's the
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  Speaker 1: old link right now. So just give me a mo
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  Speaker 1: a mo and I will do that. But let me
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  Speaker 1: know if you guys can hear me and Alison. Fine,
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  Speaker 1: if you are watching this on YouTube, if you're in
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  Speaker 1: the Twitter space, you should only be able to hear me.
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  Speaker 1: And that's just the unfortunate reality that we have to
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  Speaker 1: deal with right now. But you know, potentially Alex could
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  Speaker 1: join the Twitter space or whatever.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm working on that right now.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's working on that right now. So okay, that
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  Speaker 1: is not an old photo. Actually that is from just
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  Speaker 1: this past, isn't it. I think that was just from
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  Speaker 1: this past summer, like when we went to the photo
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  Speaker 1: on your the photo on your on your Yeah, that is.
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  Speaker 2: From twenty nineteen.
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  Speaker 3: So it is a bit old.
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  Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, I guess so, well we don't look
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  Speaker 1: that much different. I mean I don't. I don't think. So. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: everything's fine on YouTube, Okay, so we're good. They can
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  Speaker 1: hear me, they can hear you. So anyway, we're just
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  Speaker 1: waiting on the guest to join and then well I
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  Speaker 1: guess you know, chat with them and those of you
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  Speaker 1: guys who are in again, if you're watching this on
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  Speaker 1: spaces or listening on spaces, I'm not like, yes, it
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  Speaker 1: was it yesterday or Friday. Friday, we did like a space.
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  Speaker 1: It was for Valentine's and we were in both places
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  Speaker 1: at once and it worked out pretty well. Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I think it did. I think it sounded fine for
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: what it is. So if you're in spaces, you're just
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  Speaker 1: hearing me. But if you really want to get the
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  Speaker 1: full context, go to our YouTube channel or our rumble channel. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I've been live.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so you've been watching me do stuff.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you're fiddling.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know what that is, but I'm trying to
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  Speaker 2: make it so that I can also get into spaces.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: It's just at my like, I don't know, it was
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  Speaker 2: incredibly cold, had trouble starting the car. Then we are
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  Speaker 2: actually having record cold in in Kelvington right now or
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  Speaker 2: in Saskatchewan right now. It's like unbelievable. It's wow, it's
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  Speaker 2: supposed to be negative six.
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  Speaker 1: Oh no, that's no, that's right, there is. It is
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  Speaker 1: supposed to be crazy cold up there obviously, but also
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: in the Midwest, southern Illinois and Tennessee, they're they're getting hit.
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  Speaker 1: We got rain, that's it, a lot of rain, like
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: the like the the river is pretty flooded. But no, nothing,
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  Speaker 1: nothing severe. It's just wet and chili. So yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: am grateful.
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  Speaker 2: For that, all right, yeah, okay, so I am in
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  Speaker 2: my personal account, yes, okay, why oh right? The Max
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  Speaker 2: have this thing where you can share a mouse between
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  Speaker 2: two come on, there we go. But then it gets
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  Speaker 2: sort of confusing because the mouse goes all over the
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  Speaker 2: place and I can't find it because I'm looking at
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  Speaker 2: one screen actually on the other you know what I mean.
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  Speaker 2: All Right, so let me get the spaces this one
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  Speaker 2: coffee go here?
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  Speaker 3: There we go.
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  Speaker 2: Now, No, I don't want to boost my account right now.
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  Speaker 2: I want to get into here. There we go. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: Now I'm going to have to mute this. Yeah, it's
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  Speaker 2: already muted, and then I'm going to have to Actually,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna stay muted for now. Oh, looks like
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  Speaker 2: everybody lives left.
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  Speaker 1: Oh that's okay, they'll join. So you're in here. Now
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  Speaker 1: let me turn you into a speaker.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, but I'm going to just mute.
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  Speaker 1: All right, should go back here? Well, I'm yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: should manage the participants. So you gotta you gotta mute
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  Speaker 1: yourself or I hear my voice.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, I got it, I got it, all right, right.
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  Speaker 1: So now, because I want to make sure they can
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  Speaker 1: hear you talking for the context. Okay, so I've turned
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  Speaker 1: you into a uh co host in here, and uh,
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  Speaker 1: I think I don't know if that's something you have
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  Speaker 1: to accept.
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  Speaker 2: But oof, my cat's my cat is losing her mind.
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  Speaker 2: This is too much stress for her.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, people, Gabriel Fanlon Lucas says, don't
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  Speaker 1: fiddle with yourself on stream, Alison.
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  Speaker 2: Oh that's terrible.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, you can't see me, but I'm face palming, all right.
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  Speaker 2: So now we just have to wait to see if
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  Speaker 2: Maddie can get into.
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  Speaker 1: Let's see if she can get in here, or if
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  Speaker 1: this is going to be a whole thing. So yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I will. I will enable video if as if needed.
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  Speaker 4: But for now, yeah, it's just me and you for now. Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: huh waiting, Well, okay, okay, I'll.
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  Speaker 1: Enable video for now. Let me just uh, where is it?
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  Speaker 5: And it uses?
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  Speaker 1: Oh right, no, my camera is being used by my
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  Speaker 1: by my obs because I wanted to have it available
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  Speaker 1: as a I wanted to have it as a as
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  Speaker 1: an option. So local cam, local cam, local cam. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: this is working, So I'll just turn it on in.
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  Speaker 1: I'll just turn it on in uh for YouTube, so
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  Speaker 1: that and and leave it at that. So where's local
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  Speaker 1: cam at Where did I put it? Okay? Here we go.
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  Speaker 1: So there we go, and.
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  Speaker 2: Oh there you are.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Now they can't see me.
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  Speaker 1: Oh well that's because hold on a second, that's because
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  Speaker 1: my Uh, this camera is really big, so I'm just
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  Speaker 1: gonna move it. I'm gonna move it. This is a
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  Speaker 1: temporary setup, okay, just until we get the guests in here.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna leave it like that. Oh shit, my
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  Speaker 1: vertical is all wacky. Give me a second. I gotta
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  Speaker 1: adjust that. You're getting way too much of me. I
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  Speaker 1: don't want I don't want to be that important, so
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  Speaker 1: I will shrink myself in here and tuck it nicely
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  Speaker 1: in into the space. Okay, down below space.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So Natty says her phone crashed so had to
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  Speaker 2: switch to switch to laptop.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, there we go. Let me just move my thing
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  Speaker 1: down here, all right, So I'm gonna disappear again.
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  Speaker 2: So okay, just be me and my cat and possibly
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  Speaker 2: Jojo if you have Jojo.
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  Speaker 1: Can no Jojo? Unfortunately, no Jojo, but let me because
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Lindsay's home today. She she gets Sundays off so that
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  Speaker 1: we can go to church. All right, there you go,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: so now there we go. Yes, now we got we're
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  Speaker 1: in business. All right. Welcome Natty. How are you doing?
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  Speaker 1: Can you Oh? Okay, oh I can hear you. Okay, good,
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  Speaker 1: it's working all right, so.
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  Speaker 3: That's better.
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  Speaker 6: Okay, well, all right, real quick, before we get started,
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  Speaker 6: I want to let everybody know, if you could, I'd
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  Speaker 6: like this to reach as many people as possible, so
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: liking the video.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Or sharing it would be great. And if you guys
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  Speaker 1: want to, you know, if you have anything to say,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: you can send us a message by going to feed
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the badgel dot com forward slash just a tip, or
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: you can just send a super chat or a rumble rant.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So that's it for me, and.
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  Speaker 2: Again sorry to the the X. I guess they won't
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  Speaker 2: be able to hear this, but you know, wait, there's
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  Speaker 2: there's nobody really launching through X.
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  Speaker 1: Well yeah they might, well they come and go. So
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: but all.
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  Speaker 3: Right, so if doing a live stream on X.
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  Speaker 2: Yep, it's a live stream on X. We're also streaming
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  Speaker 2: through our channel, which is.
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  Speaker 1: What we're in. We're in spaces as well.
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  Speaker 2: Which is the complexity that caused all these issues.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I I was on X earlier waiting for you, and
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  Speaker 3: then I got distracted. But then also I couldn't really
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  Speaker 3: look in, so sorry about that.
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  Speaker 2: No, that's okay. I still have a little bit like
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  Speaker 2: about two hours, so it should be if even even
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  Speaker 2: with a late start, we're getting an echo?
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  Speaker 1: Are we getting in an art? Force said that because
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  Speaker 1: just now it was a little while ago, but I
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  Speaker 1: haven't had an echo since then.
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  Speaker 2: So I just heard an echo. So it seems to
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  Speaker 2: have resolved itself, so hopefully it doesn't come back. So
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  Speaker 2: what we're planning to do is we'll do like maybe
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  Speaker 2: an hour discussion between you and me, and then we
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  Speaker 2: will do throw it to the X floor and maybe
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  Speaker 2: an hour of that. What do you think?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, okay, that's start with me.
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  Speaker 2: And I guess Brian will moderate and yeah, yeah, well
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  Speaker 2: we're trying to keep try to keep you on topic.
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  Speaker 1: How about that?
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  Speaker 2: Sure? Okay, So I guess choose a topic, Maddie.
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  Speaker 3: Um, oh, well, what I'm doing these days is critiquing
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  Speaker 3: gynocentrism theory that you guys generally subscribe to. So we
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  Speaker 3: can start with that if you want.
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, define gynocentrism theory that you are critiquing.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm using what Peter writes. Writings that the West
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  Speaker 3: is gynocentric women centered at the expense of men, and
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  Speaker 3: his theory goes all the way back to the medieval period.
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  Speaker 2: That's not very far, but okay, So Essentially, what your
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  Speaker 2: argument is is that the West is not is not
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  Speaker 2: does not benefit women at the expense of men, or alternatively,
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  Speaker 2: that the general attitude is not to benefit women at
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  Speaker 2: the expensive men.
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  Speaker 3: The general attitude and benefits is that different to women
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  Speaker 3: centered at the expensive men? Well, where is that the same?
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  Speaker 2: Okay? So it's slightly different. You could say that functionally
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  Speaker 2: people are not able to benefit women but still want to,
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  Speaker 2: or you could say they want to and they do so,
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  Speaker 2: which is it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, my argument is that we don't have an overall
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  Speaker 3: garnocentric society. We may have some examples of garno centrism,
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  Speaker 3: but when you add things up and tally them together,
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  Speaker 3: as in.
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  Speaker 2: What sect, just a sect before we get into it,
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  Speaker 2: because I still think we have defined things.
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  Speaker 3: So your.
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  Speaker 2: Problem is that you don't think that one. Okay, So
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  Speaker 2: there's two components of this. You don't think that people
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  Speaker 2: want to benefit men or sorry, women over men, or
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  Speaker 2: you don't think that they are like So there can
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  Speaker 2: be an attitude, so a desire towards ginocentrism, and for
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  Speaker 2: whatever reason, it's not realized. So are you saying that
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  Speaker 2: people don't have a desire for ginocentrism as well, or
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  Speaker 2: just that they can't create it. But okay, all right,
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  Speaker 2: so we can start with not wanting a desire or
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  Speaker 2: not having a desire to benefit men over women.
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  Speaker 3: Correct, benefit women are the men you mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, women over men? Information was conveyed, so we
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  Speaker 2: could start with that element, since in order to have
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  Speaker 2: its ginocentric society, we sort of have to start with
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  Speaker 2: the desire for one. Correct.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I don't believe that there is a desire for one.
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  Speaker 2: You're wrong.
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  Speaker 1: Wrong.
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  Speaker 2: In the scientific literature, the evidence is that the average
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  Speaker 2: person does want to benefit women over men. So if
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  Speaker 2: there's an instance where harm can be accrued to a
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  Speaker 2: woman or a man, they will prefer to see it
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  Speaker 2: done to a man. If there is benefit to be
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  Speaker 2: given either a woman or a man, they will prefer
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  Speaker 2: to see that done to a woman. It even goes
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  Speaker 2: to the instances of scientific studies. So if a scientific
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  Speaker 2: study shows that men are better than women at something,
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  Speaker 2: people will believe that it's false or that the methodology
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  Speaker 2: is incorrect, whereas if it shows the reverse, they're more
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: and more likely to advocate for that science as being correct.
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  Speaker 2: And this is stuff that is in literature like this
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  Speaker 2: is what we see in terms of the psychology of
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  Speaker 2: men and women and how the individual, well the individual
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: men and women wants to benefit men or women. Now,
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  Speaker 2: if we look at something like implicit bias, women have
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  Speaker 2: an implicit bias for other women, so they have a
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  Speaker 2: preference for other women that we do not see with men.
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  Speaker 2: Men don't have a preference for other women or sir,
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  Speaker 2: don't have a preference for men the way women have
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: a preference for other women. In fact, I think men's
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  Speaker 2: preference is for other women as well. So, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: you can say that this is not the case, but
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  Speaker 2: you're arguing with a lot of science.
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  Speaker 3: Just saying that I'm arguing with science. You will need
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: to whate of those studies are.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, the implicit bias study in relation to implicit bias
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  Speaker 2: and gender, let me let me call up my resources.
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  Speaker 2: And also there is a recent study into you. You're
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: gonna hear a lot of me typing and not speaking
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  Speaker 2: if I have to do that's okay.
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  Speaker 3: No, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get you to
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  Speaker 3: do it. But every single point I'm not going to
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  Speaker 3: be donying like that. But that's fine.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I can't I can't. You guys, when you
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: talk at the same time, I can't. People can't make
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  Speaker 1: out what you're saying. Go ahead and Allison while you
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: look that up. Natty, you go ahead and finish your thought.
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  Speaker 3: No, No, I was just saying I'm not gonna get
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  Speaker 3: her to do every single study that she may be referencing.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying that saying science says this is not
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  Speaker 3: particularly good enough in this conversation at this point, So
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: you're gonna need.
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  Speaker 2: To Okay, but here's the thing. You are asserting something
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  Speaker 2: that isn't proven, Like, ultimately, we have to look at
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: something to make ours, we have to base them on
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: some kind of common ground. If you're gonna say, well,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: science is just we can't, well, then what do we
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: based on a common ground? There's no point having a discussion.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Like when you say that ginocentrism if you want to
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  Speaker 2: call it ginocentrism or preference to benefit women doesn't exist.
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  Speaker 2: There is substantial science to indicate that it does. There
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  Speaker 2: is implicit bias that women have towards other women. If
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: you ask the average person if they would want to
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: harm a woman versus man, they prefer to harm a man.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: If you ask to prefer to benefit a man, they
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: would prefer to benefit a woman, Like you're going up
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: against actual evidence. And then of course the omega bias
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: or the omega Yeah, I think it is a mega bias,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: which is what I was talking about with the with
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: the scientific surveys. If you if you show people something
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: science and you just make up like a two studies,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: one that shows men are better at something and one
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: that shows that women are better at something, you show
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: it to the average person, they will guard the one
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: in which men are better at something as with more suspicion.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: So we prefer to see we don't just prefer to
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: benefit women to prevent them from harm. We don't just
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: see an implicit bias towards women with from women towards
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: each other. We also see a desire to view women
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: more positively than men. And this is all in the literature.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And I mean, if you're going to say, well, no,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: that doesn't exist, that's fine, but that's not a discussion
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: to be had here, Naddy. You need to go into
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: the literature and you need to do a review of it,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: and you need to state your thesis. Why are your
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: hypothesis of why all of it is wrong.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Otherwise why this is wrong?
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: But after reviewing the literature, Allison as Allison, let Natty.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Let let Natty say her piece because she might not
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: want to talk about it from the perspective of like
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: studies and statistics, because you know that I can understand
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: how there could be some desire to like view those
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: things with suspicion too. So let's hear. Let's hear Natty's case.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: But outside of that, I guess or whatever you're I
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to put words in
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: your mouth. But let's let's hear what Nady's side of that.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: So go ahead, Natty, Yeah, sure.
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  Speaker 3: So like what Brian just said there, there's definitely going
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: to be arguments that I could make that could say, well,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: their right to view certain studies with suspicion because studies
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: are misrepresented all the time, and the variables and parts
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: of things that they select in a study and then
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: represent it on the internet or in the media, well
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: we all know that that things get misinterpreted or misrepresented
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: quite often on all sides of Actually it's not just
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: you know, the liberal there for the mainstream that this
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: also happens on from the kind of alternative side or
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: you know, right wing or whatever is deemed to be
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: outside of the state. It's squad. It happens all over
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: the place. So that's the first point I will make
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: about that. The other side of it is this argument
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  Speaker 3: you're making that if somebody thinks that it's worse for
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: a woman to be treated a certain way, and that's
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: what's represented in a study, that that actually then correlates
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: to proving that the West is gynocentric overall. I could
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: probably argue that point and probably test that point with you,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: but my position, generally speaking isn't I could use some
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: data and studies that you may provide or stuff that
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: I may have come across too, but my hypothesis generally
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: comes from questioning where the worldview comes from in the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: first place about gynocentrism. And then also the point I
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: made earlier is that I am not denying that there
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: may be elements of gynocentrism in society in the West, right,
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: But my contention is that we don't have a ginocentric
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: society overall. Yeah, so I'm saying that we still have patriarchy.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: We still have a patriarchal society in the sense that
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: men still rule, especially in a civilizational level, You're always
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: going to have men in power, right, at least we
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: do at this time, okay, who have influenced overt influence.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: And also philosophically speaking, we have a sort of individualistic
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: framework that is actually based on the male form, in
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: the male way of looking at the world, or at
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: least how we think masculinity is in the first place.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: So that sort of part of my hypothesis really is
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: that a lot of what the feminist theory perhaps is
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: getting at in the past is that after the Enlightenment
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: we develop this notion of human rights and the rights
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: of the visual and how we're viewing the world through
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: that lens. And I'm sort of my starting point with
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: it is that that's not that wasn't at the time
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: defined through how women may see the world, how experienced
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: the world, right, So that's sort of the starting point there.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: And then the other part of my my theory, the
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: way that my argument, sorry, is my interpretation of the
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: Orthodox faith, Okay, what the church teaches and the added
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: element of ancestral sin and how that affects how we
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: view men and women a ka, Adam and Eve and
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: I understand that if you're not a Christian, then you're
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: going to reject this worldview. But I have to sort
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: of partly make the case that we shouldn't reject that
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: worldview in the sense that this is always affecting how
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: human men and women see each other, whether it's through
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: preferencing men or preferencing women. That's probably what I would
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: include into my hYP hypothesis. Sorry, so I'm happy to
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: reference some studies if it's relevant to that, But that
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: is what my my pushback or my position is where
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: it's coming from, because I basically make the case that
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: we can't necessarily have the gynocentric society overall without patriarchy,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: because patriarchy will facilitate guyno centrism when it exists, and
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: this idea that that patriarchy would do something like that
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: that would undermine it in the first place is kind
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: of odd because you know, you could say that if
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: you had a study that demonstrated female preferencing, then this
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: assumption that that means that the man is going to
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: be it's going to be at the expense of men somehow,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: I think is very interesting assumption to be made. And
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: the case I would make is that is that because you, Alison,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: and perhaps everyone at Honeybudger Radio and everyone generally speaking
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: in the MRM has taken on the guano centric worldview
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: as a presupposition. So you are looking at it having
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: accepted a conclusion about something in the first place, which
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: then affects how you interpret data and then start CHOI
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: picking and manipulating things that you found to fit that.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: So I don't know how long you want to give
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: me to keep talking.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I just.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I'll keep writing, you keep talking, all.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Right, Okay, So in terms of how I see things, Okay,
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: I think that feminism was correct. Yeah, in the sense
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: that it noted that we do have a patriarchal society
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: in the sense that the rulers are men. We have
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: the rule of men, and we have preferencing of men
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: in a certain way, like we had women taking men's
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: surname and we had property passed down through the male
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: line in that way. Okay, and you know, throughout all
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: the changes we've had that then that brings us to
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: mozanity and like the sort of postmodern technocratic era that
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: we're in now, we're now sort of moving into an
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: area where women's rights are being questioned again, even though
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: they haven't been around for very long, and even you
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: could admit that, Alison, I'm sure.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: But are you asking me a question? Well, I think
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: that was I'd prefer you did not I impute my
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: intentions while you are having a conversation have a discussion
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: on it. I mean no, I mean you're saying that
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: you're the tone of your voice is extremely snarky, but
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: you're having your sting your hypothesis. We're giving you the
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: room to state your hypothesis. I'm merely taking notes so
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: that I can start formulating my rebuttal. If you, in
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: the process of stating your hypothesis start impugning ideas to me,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like I should have the right to respond
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: to that. However, that means you'll have to stop and
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: we'll have to start the response.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Okay, I want to do that again. No Julie notes.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: And please no more snark Like seriously, why because because
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: it's just it doesn't facilitate a conversation, like why would
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: you Why would you approach this in terms of being snarky? No, seriously,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: why would you? You're talking about You're talking about the
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: emotional Okay, emotional Frameworket.
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: Wait, you're talking about the emotional framework that bring to
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: this thing, and I'm pointing out you are yourself are
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: evincing an emotional framework.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: All right, continue being snarky. Is what an emotional framework?
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an emotional framework of dismissal and contempt.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have intent, you guys are promoting absolutely.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: All right, Well make the case the case the case.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And having emotions and feelings about a worldview that
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: I think is doing damage to people is completely appropriate.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Except in the discussion when we're just looking at the facts, right, Yeah.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: I am, well not really if I'm talking about hypothesis
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: or an argument that I'm presenting, whether or not that's factual,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: isn't that something that you we would argue about so well?
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, frankly, from that, are you complete?
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Are you?
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Are you done? Can I can I start addressing it?
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Or do you want to continue?
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Hey?
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: You you said that I shouldn't impugnede you.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: But that's a that's a that's the beginning of a digression.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Before that, you were still laying out your case. We
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: want to know if you're finished, I want to give
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: you a chance.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: You and saying and acknowledging that you probably don't want
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: women to lose some of the rights that they have.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: No, you are now again impugning what I Well.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: Hey, listen, Allison, We've had a lot of interactions in
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: the past, so you know, forgive me for thinking that
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: you No, no, no.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: No, no, no no. Well, first of all, my point
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: is that when you start to talk about what I think,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: I know talking about what you think? So are you
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: done with what you think? Or do you want to continue?
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Like just let's let's just bring it down to brass tacks,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: giving you the opportunity to lay out your thesis. Are
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: you done or your hypothesis? Are you done? Because the
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: last thing that you said was we are now in
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: an era where women's rights are being questioned even though
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: they haven't been around for very long. Do you want
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: to continue that thought or do you want to now
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: discuss what I think? Because you've introduced the topic. That's
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: all I'm going on. You can be as snarky as
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: you want, granted, but at this point, if you want
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: to talk about my thoughts, then we can talk about
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: my thoughts. Are you done with your thoughts?
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: No?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Okay? Then continue you were you were speaking on the
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: topic of women's rights being questioned.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: Leading into what I think about about it and where
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: my mindset comes from.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: You think about it, not what I think about it,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: but what you think about it.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: Sure, okay, So, as I said to you, my belief
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: in Orthodox Christianity does influence my worldview here, and I
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: think that part of the reason that I've been pushing
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: back against the promotion of gones centers and worldview is
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: because the worldview is based on a deep resentment of
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: the Virgin Mary aka the Mother of God the right.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: When you read Peter Writes writings in his essay, it
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: becomes now because this is.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Very very letter, let her finish her thing. That's okay,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Let let her finish her thought on that. Go ahead,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: thank you. Sorry.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is actually pretty relevant because I do
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: think it's very interest that we have a particular worldview
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: being promoted that that is based on that. In my opinion,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: and as an Orthodox Christian, we venerate the theater with
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: the Virgin Mary and what she did for us. Yeah,
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: in terms of she gave birth to Jesus, she gave
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: birth to the Word, and she she engaged in a
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: level of self sacrifice yeah, she was. She was sinless.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: According to Autho Lot theology, she was sinless and you
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: know she was chosen by God to do that and
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: she went through a lot. And I think so if
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Pieter writes gon of Saners theory, which is pretty much
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: the guy that popularized the whole thing, although he's not
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: the only person that's spoken about it, but he is
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: so pretty much responsible for it being accepted among the
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: mr M and the right wing at large in terms
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: of the culture war stuff, then he's actually given freedom
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: to the influence of Christianity. So if I'm coming from
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: a perspective that orthodox Christianity and Christianity is generally speaking,
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: is true, and he's given credence to how that has
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: influenced our mindset in the culture. Because his argument is
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: pretty much that the way that the Virgin Mary was
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: viewed in the medieval area era was that the night
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: class who were under feudalism under chivalry. When chivalry changed
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: from being a code of conduct of behavior for the
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: night class and then it became about respecting women above men,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: is his argument. He's saying that they started to worship
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: the Virgin Mary instead of just maybe venerating her, this
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: was like a cult, a Marian cult. And then his
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: argument is that eventually this transmuted into a kind of
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: archetype for women in the culture, and so people started
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: to view women as like by default sinless, like the
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: virgin Mary, and then put women on a sort of
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: mental pedestal, and then men would be being expected to
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: be christ Like and women were not expected to be
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: christ Like. And that's his sort of underlying argument of
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: all of his essays really, and anyway, I'm going to
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: get to what I think about it if you just
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: give me what thirty more seconds, please, Alison. I know
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: I've been talking a lot a while. So he's sort
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: of comes out the end of that by saying, Hey,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: women have not been expected to be christ Like in
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: this kind of servant servant leadership or kind of like
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: a self sacrificial in the way that generally speaking, it's
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: understood if you're a Christian, you're supposed to be christ
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Like and take on a kind of sacrificial way of
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: being in service to others. And he's saying that women
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: weren't particularly expected to do that all this time, and
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: so I have a problem with that. But where I'm
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: going with This is that in Orthodox theology and generally speaking,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: in Christianity, although not all of the different prop denominations,
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: Protestant denominations necessarily will agree with this at all. That
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: when Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Eve ate the fruit, right, and then she received the
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: truth without God. So that's how it's generally understood, okay,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: And it's she sort of represents emotions and intuition and
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: and that side of humanity, and Adam ate the fruit
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: and he ate it willfully, and he sort of represents
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: human will and reason. And then when God comes, Adam said,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: Eve gave it to me. When when God comes and
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: confronts her and him, well, and he says, Eve gave
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: it to me, and she says I was deceived. I
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: was deceived by the serpent. And he says Eve gave
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: it to me. As in, he doesn't take responsibility for
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: the fact that he ate the fruit. He just says,
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: she gave it to me, okay, And he also hides,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: which is not a good look, right, And so then
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: God gives the curse to them, and then they fall
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: away from God. And in Orthodox theology, Adam is held
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: responsible overall for that whole situation, right, and then Eve
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: becomes subject to Adam, and that is part of the
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: consequence of the fall. So, and that is how this
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: notion of someone being superior and someone being inferior or
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: slave master or oppressor oppressed begins because before the fall,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: there was no understanding of someone being on top of
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: someone being on the bottom. There was an understanding that
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Adam was the head, as in, he represents human will
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: and reason and he was created first, but there wasn't
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: an understanding that he was somehow superior and she was inferior.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: That is a consequence of the fall. And so if
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: part of the consequence of the fall and the curse
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: is that Eve is basically constantly subject to Adam, right,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: that means that she is then naturally like inferior or
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: seen in a like slave master, or there's a hierarchy
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: formed that isn't the type of hierarchy that existed prior
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: to the fall. So in our church teaching, it says
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: that Adam's will is what needs to be healed first,
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: and he's the head, right, So there is this sort
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: of acknowledgment that, yeah, we have a patriarchy now basically,
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: and what the patriarchic patriarchy needs to do is act first,
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: initiates some follow Christ and being servant leadership to heal
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: that first. But there's that sort of acknowledgment right that
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: there is the patriarchy and that that basically exists, and
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: that man will probably constantly try to have this way
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: of being over and over over again because that is
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: sort of the ancestral sin and the consequences of what
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: the fall are. So without even going into how that
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: plays out over time in humanity and where we're at
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: now in modernity, we have tried to not reverse that,
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: but like even it out. We've had the feminism, We've
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: had you know, this this eglitarian notion that we should
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: you know, try and be equal, and now we're moving
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: into a new era where people were trying to go
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: back how they think things were previously again arm So
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: like it's all showing us that actually, as much as
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: we'd like to try to even out and get rid
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: of this patriarchy, we kind of stuck with it. It's
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: always there, And I think I'll stop there for now.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: Thank you for letting me talk for a bit longer.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: That's cool, Alison.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Ahead actually have a question and it's a little bit
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: of a digression. Why didn't you get involved in men's
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: issues in the first place.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Because I believe that women were not being held accountable
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: because I had mummy issues.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that's your conclusion. So you believe that men's
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: issues are completely in.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: The No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Sorry, Okay, you believe that men's issues are completely invalid. No.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: I never said men's issues were completely invalid.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: No, but you said that you think that you got
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: involved in with these issues because of emotional reason or
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: an emotional flaw that you've since presumed resolved. So doesn't
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: that leave all of the issues is invalid. That just
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: as a result of an emotional problem that people have
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: is the only reason why anybody advocates or has.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: An interest, leaves a logic that are No, I'm just okay.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Let me, let me, let me let me clarify.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Look, yeah, rephrase it, Alison, that's okay, rephrase it all right?
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Do you Okay? You said that you advocated for men's
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: issues as a result of having a problem with your mother. Correct.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: I can give a much fuller answer. I've answered this
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: question a million times in a short way and in
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: a long way, but I just gave you a very quick, quick,
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: a quick thing.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: If I okay, if I may, if I may, if
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I may not, Not that I'm making an argument for
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: either side, but I'm going to try to try to
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: explain or see where Allison is coming from. So people
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: get involved with the men's movement for different reasons, and
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: what Natty's answer sounds like is is basically it's either
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: you know, you're some people are more on the side
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: of like, what are the legal and administrative and legislative
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: issues you know, maybe even systemic that men face that
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: that you know, we need to address, either because we're
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: pursuing equality, which is maybe somewhere like where Warren Ferrell
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: is at, or because you know, we just want to
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: see men treated more fairly. For the people who are
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: like the intactivists, and then you have the people who
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: are like and I'm not saying it's one or the other,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: there's usually overlap. But then you have the people who
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: are like, well, you know, maybe we just want to
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: hold women to similar standards that we already hold men to.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: And then and you know, like and that that would
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: be like a pursue, you know, in pursuit of something
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: that looks like equality as well, but like in another way,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: assuming equality is goal, that depends because like, we don't
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: all believe in those concepts, but some do. And I
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: think that what Natty's answer, and you know, let me
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: know if I'm wrong, But your answer seems to be
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: that to that question was more on the side of
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think women are held accountable to a satisfactory degree.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: And I guess in retrospect, you're saying, oh, I think
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: that came from or I have concluded that that came
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: from my experiences with my mother? Am I being Am
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I being fair with that? Or unfair?
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: No, I would say that's a reasonably fair assessment. I
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: think there's more to it. But I was giving you
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: a quick answer.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I think Nanna wants to give a longer answer to you.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: If you would like, I can give you a very
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: much more fleshed out answer, because I am quite a
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: complex person, I believe it or not, so I do
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: probably have multiple reasons why I got involved. But I
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: think that there's always a kind of strong draw and
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: it is emotional. You're correct, that will often brings people
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: into kind of online movements or political political political movements,
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: and I often there is a very kind of strong
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: personal emotional reason that will bring them into it, even
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: though there may be intellectual points or facts that have
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: brought them to accepting a position too. But I think
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: often in these things that that there will be something
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: that's personal to them for that one. Because the accountability
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: issue in terms of women, because as you know, and
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: you've discussed a thousand times, I have observed and also
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: been involved with in the past, that men's issues are
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: addressed from a more feminist perspective or perspectives that are
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: not necessarily from the worldview that the men's rights all right,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: all right.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: We're moving away from the topic.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're not Wait wait wait, let I'll give it.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Then we're going to give outs on the floor.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Explain to you that the men's rights movement that you
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: guys have been promoting all this time, the particular worldview
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: that you promote that you tie into that is very
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: much interwoven with this idea that women are not held accountable.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Because there are other people that acknowledge men's issues too,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: but they don't have that same presupposition. Sorry.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: For example, other people who hold are interested in men's issues,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: but do not feel that women aren't held accountable.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: That think that women are held accountable you.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Mean, sorry, are held accountable.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: I mean I've seen to remember in the UK years ago,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: there was what was that, what was that kind of
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: charity that acknowledged men's issues, but men's rights people like you,
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying you, but like you maybe would have
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: critiqued and said, oh, they're coming from a more feminist perspective.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there's a lot of well you know, a
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: lot of like services for men are usually operating within
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: the feminist framework and like yeah, project yeah, for example,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: yeah you.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Guys a nauseum, Okay.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: The feminist framework is that men are ultimately responsible, let's
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: be friends, that they're ultimately responsible for their own issues,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: they're ultimately responsible for men's for women's issues, they're ultimately
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: responsible for everyone's issues. That's the feminist framework. That's what
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: we push back against. And to say that if we
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: are against that framework, that we well, yeah, we're saying
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: that that framework absolves women of their culpability in the situation,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: because it does one hundred percent. So the real question
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: that this what we get to at this point, And
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: I want to lay this out, and then I'm going
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: to ask again. A follow up for my question is
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: that if you believe that men are one hundred like
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: and I've never seen any point at which feminists will
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: recognize women's culpability unless they talk it's talking about calling
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: women pigmies because they don't believe in feminism, but whatever.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: When you get to that point of saying, like anything
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: is men's responsibility, what is women's responsibility? Like nothing? So
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: we're saying, yeah, that's not correct, but we're doing it
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: in response to an initiative that's saying that men are
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: responsible for everything or nearly everything, or functionally everything. So yeah,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: you're right, we are saying that women aren't held accountable enough.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: But the feminist framework is that men are the fundamental,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: the alpha and omega of everything that happens. And I'm
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: saying that's wow.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you that when I first got involved, I
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: agreed with you about that.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: That's nice, and then you stopped agreeing with us. So yes,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: but but you are saying that you agreed because you
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: had mommy issues. Now, yeah, any of the reasons, but yeah,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: you're saying that you want involved because you have mommy issues.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Do you believe that it's possible for someone to think
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: that women are not held accountable enough, particularly within the
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: feminist framework, in certain aspects of conservative framework, and not
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: have mommy issues.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if possible, but I reckon that there
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: will be something similar in terms of okay, lucky with
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: a savage question.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: I okay, okay, continue, I.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Think that's possible. But I'm also saying to you that
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: I think that there probably will be some issues in
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: how they think women's experience is. So they're empathy for
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: women and it might not be a mom that they
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: have issue.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: All right, So you think that if they don't have
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: mommy issues, they have issues with So I'm just saying
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: that people who basically in response to feminist conjecture that
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: men are fundamentally the responsible for society and similar to
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: what you're saying about Adam being fundamentally responsible for the fall.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: I agree with that what you have to say about it,
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: but I don't agree.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Push back against that. People who push back against that
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: you're saying are motivated by mommy issues, are motivated by
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: other animists against women. Can it just be true, like,
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: can people just simply say this is something that happens
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: and we are pushing back against it, or is it invalid?
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: It's always a result.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: I'm so so so.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Essentially, what you're saying is, as I said, you think
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: the position is invalid and you think that people pursue
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: this position because of emotional problems with women.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: Generally speaking. Yeah, there can.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Be no exception unless you could regard the position itself
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: as valid in some circumstance. You see what I'm saying.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Either there is somebody, one person out there who is
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: pursuing holding women accountable out of a purely logical, purely
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: reasoned position, and not and actually this is true. One
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: person has recognized this is true based on not emotional reasoning,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: or everything is emotional reasoning and everything is wrong.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: No, no, okay, but maybe I'm saying.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, Allison, say it one more like, rephrase it or whatever,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: and then we'll let Natty respond.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, getting aside, setting aside. The emotional motivation is the
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: position that women are not held accountable in particular in
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: feminist frameworks and other frameworks.
• 49:18
  Speaker 7: Valid You've lost me, then, I'm Sorry's motivations for for
• 49:32
  Speaker 7: coming to that conclusion?
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Is the conclusion valid?
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: Right? Like I don't think the conclusion is valid, so.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: So so okay, so you believe that there is possibility
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: some somebody who hasn't come to this from an emotional
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: reasoning but for flawed logic essentially, So we're back at
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: the discussion of the evidence, the discussion of the logic.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, I can, I can. I can give
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: you how. I don't think that humans operate without emotions
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: influencing them at all. I don't think that's possible in
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: terms of especially in terms of investing in a an
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: ideology or a political movement. I just don't. I don't
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: think that humans operate that way. I think that there's
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: an intersection of your emotions influencing and motivating you to
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: be biased in one way or another. We're not when
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: I don't understand. So I reject this notion that we
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: can be one hundred percent rational at all times. That's
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: just not possible.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, So how do we have a conversation then, if
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: we are all influenced by various emotional factors, where do
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: we come together with any kind of agreement?
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: Well, we can use we use both, We use reason
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: and emotions together.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, so we're back at reason like, how do you
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: use emotions in order to so explain how you use
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: emotions to benefit this conversation. How about.
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: Well I could empathize with you if you're making it
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: a point, if you're telling me a story about something
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: that affected you emotionally, then I can use empathy. That
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: will help me to empathize with you and maybe try
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: and feel some of the emotions that you're feeling. That
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: can help our conversation.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Uh, okay, I mean the thing is that we're talking
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: about an observation of reality. However, so wouldn't like this
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: is this is this is as close as we can
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: get to a collective experience. So wouldn't statistics wouldn't studies
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: be more accurate?
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Well? I well why my position is that we would
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: use both. Okay, but all right, so because when you
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: use studies and statistics, you can't always trust that you
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: are haven't got rid of the enough of your bias,
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: your perception bias, the conclusion that you may have the presupposition.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: You get rid of your perception bias. What is the
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: functional what is the functional process by which you get
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: rid of your perception bias?
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: That's a good question, I think. By acknowledging that you
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: have it in the first place. Yeah, and I suppose
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: working over a period of time to try and make sure.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like you have a perception bias right now?
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Probably?
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, what do you think that is?
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: I think that the Guynes sages and worldview is incorrect.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: So I'm looking at you and I am less likely
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: to have a conversation with you where I think what
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: you're saying is entirely correct. But I'm sort of at
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: the same time thinking, Okay, I know I will agree
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: with Alison about something at some point, and I really
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: want to make sure that when that happens, I tell
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: her because then she knows I'm not just here to
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: be like everything you're saying is wrong, Alison.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, sure tell me when we come to a
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: point of agreement that you feel is correct. But here's
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: my problem. So you're saying that you're not giving a
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: process by which you resolve your perception aside from saying, well,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: just acknowledge that you have it, that you have perception issues.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: But it seems like, let's say we go through this
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: process of resolving our issues around emotional It almost seems
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: like you're saying that emotions distort how you see things.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: So if we resolve our perception issues, what we're trying
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: to get to as a point of pure reason. Correct.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: I don't think trying to get to the point of
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: pure reason is is a worthwhile goal because one a second, Alison,
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: So in terms of the worldview that I'm operating from,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: that I believe is true. Pure reason is like a
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: tool that we use. So for example, when we're doing
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: something scientific, we're using a particular framework and a model
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: to you know, observe in reality.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: And what pure reason is used for.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: But okay, so I'm trying to say. What I'm trying
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: to say to you, is that in terms of interactions
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: with other humans. Yeah, I don't think it's a good
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: idea to try and get to a point where you're
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: just using pure reason. Yeah, I'm not. I want a minute, Alison.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: You are not a machine I'm trying to use or
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: trying to observe something in you know, in a scientific experiment.
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: You are a person with a soul.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: My business though, honestly, that's my business now.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: The if I may, I really quick, okay, okay.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: My point is that you were talking about perceptional problems
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: as a result of emotional investment in this, that or
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: the other. So if you are to get to the truth,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: don't you have to resolve those perceptional those perception problems
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: as a result of your emotional investment in things. I mean,
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: because that's what you said. You said that I.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: Understand what you're saying. I'm I'm I'm operating from a
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: worldview that's influenced by Christianity, Orthodox Christianity, and so therefore
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: there is a there is a thing where we believe
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: that the truth comes from God, and it's more revelatory
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: rather than observable in some instances, and of like looking
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: at the material world and kind of in a scientific way. Sure,
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: but we acknowledge that there is more than that. You know,
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: there's a spiritual realm, and God does communicate to us sometimes.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: And so I'm just trying to I'm not trying to
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: like be an apologist here. I'm just trying to explain
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: that I am not coming from the same framework as you.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: I think. So I'm just saying that the Adam East
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: story is quite interesting.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: And I know that you think that you're coming from
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: a different framework. I suspect you think you're coming from
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: a superior framework, whereas like, as I said, I.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: Believe that I'm superior to anybody because I'm a sinner.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: So oh, okay, all right. But the thing is that
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: you believe that you've come closer to an understanding of
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: what has actually happening right than my than I have,
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: because I am probably, in your estimation, still thinking through
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: they're thinking through an emotional lens that I haven't resolved.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Is what I'm What I get, I suspect is what
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: you're saying, you could I could be wrong. You can Yeah,
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: I mean moment of agreement to say yes, Alison, that's exactly.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure it's exact. I think my observation of
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: you is that you you're very like you know you're
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: you're you're using reason and.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: Around me, So I respect the people around me. I'm
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: not going to say that they if they bring reason
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: and logic, I'm going to respect that for what it is.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Every time I talk to people, I'm prepared to be wrong.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: So why I ask questions, Yeah.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm sure.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: So I'm I just want okay, if I may just
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: just I.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: Just want to can I finish my thought about.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Brian has been squashed a couple of times, so why
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: don't we let him go?
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: All I wanted to say is that we're there, your
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: opera there there seems to be like a binary conversation
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: happening where it's either your logic or your emotion. And
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: the truth is we're like, we're complicated beings. Obviously there
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: is no one on like that I know of that
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: is pure logic. But I do think that we try to,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: like look at you know, the lot, We try to
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: operate within logic and reason, but you can't completely and
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: I don't think anyone pretend like emotions don't have any
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: effect on us. I mean intactivists, for example, that that
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: advocate against circumcision probably have a story to tell that
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: they have a bad experience with but it's not the
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: method by which they advocate for intactivism to mutilating baby boys. Instead,
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: they bring out all of the data because they know
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: that purely emotional argumentation is generally not effective and it
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: comes across as soli cystic. But what's better, and if
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: you want to actually make change, is you show people
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: this is the actual consequences. And not only that, but
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: it's effective because you know, would be parents will look
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: at that and say, well, I don't want to do
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: that to my child, And that's not them saying, you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: this is all of the rational reasons why that we
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: would do that. It's more, oh, I would out of
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: a love to protect their children from mutilation. So I'm
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: just all I'm saying is this isn't like argument one
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: way or the other. But I think that it's a
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: little uncharitable to say that, you know, this pure thing
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: over here of reason or this pure thing of emotion,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: are you know, like wrong or right for this reason
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: or that reason, because nobody works that way. That's all.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: So I'm sorry who was talking? Who wanted to talk?
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Was it Natty? You can you can talk now.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: I'm just putting my FuMB up. I was just saying, yeah,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: I think that's a good summary there, because my argument
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: is that we we will use a mixture of both,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: and that we shouldn't really try to claim that we
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: are not influenced by one or the other. Although's I mean,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: I know it claims often a lot that people are
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: just using just speaking from their emotion emotional point of view,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: and there's no reason involved, and that that that that
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: clearly happens too. But actually, what I was going to
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: say about Alison is that my observation of Alison is
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: that and I'm not saying this is one hundred percent correct,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: but this is my perception is that she tries to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: operate in the reason category more often than not, and
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: therefore maybe is in danger of not acknowledging the emotional
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: side influencing her ability to reason. And I'm saying, I
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: don't think it's a good idea to actually try and
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: convince yourself that you're like that at all times, because actually,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: where I'm coming from is that often we will find
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: people that tend to be operating in that way, and
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: they're often very monotone types, you know that they're kind
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: of like in this like I am just talking for
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: my reason, you know, that kind of stereotype, and then
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: they seem to embrace ideas that actually seem nonsensical or
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: even irrational. And but then they then they cherry pick
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: data and find information that may justify their reasoning for
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: picking it. But actually, when you really like investigate with
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: them why they went that way, it tends to be
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: that there was something emotional or something about themselves as
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: a person, the influence that got them there, and and
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: then so I guess I'm just trying to point out
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: that I don't think it's a good idea to try
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: and claim that we can operate like that, especially when
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: you're in a conversation with another person.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, first of all, I'm not claiming we don't
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: operate without emotion, but the goal is to operate in
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: a place of reason, because reason is respectful to the
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: people around you. In my opinion, it is the ultimate meritocracy,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: where people can offer a reason logical argument and have
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: it considered so the ultimate. And again I'm not saying
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: that people are pure logic or pure reason. I'm saying
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: that that is the goal when we are discussing a
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: shared experience, is logic and reason and looking at things
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: through facts.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Ah yeah, I mean, just to add to that, I
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: think that the thing is, you know, obviously human beings
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: are made up of both. But emotions are easy. We
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: have them, like very early on, we know what they are,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: we will express them often. But reason is something we
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: work towards so and a lot of people don't do that.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: What we want to do is obviously try to be
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: because the purpose of reason is, as Alison said, it's
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: to try to come to conclusions that are the most
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: the closest to the truth. Let's put it that way,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: as close to the truth as we can get it. Yeah.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the thing is that when we go into
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: what I've noticed is that when we go into this
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: emotional reasoning, what ends up happening is the person with
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: the greatest amount of power wins, the greatest amount of
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: willingness to do violence, either emotional or physically to someone else, wins.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: Their emotions become the dominant emotions.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: So yeah, well, okay, yeah, sorry, I finish your point.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: So when we enter the realm of reason and logic,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: we are setting aside our weaponry, like going into the
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: going into the h I don't know, the parliament, setting
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: aside our weaponry and choosing to use arguments and persuasion
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: in order to achieve some kind of a consensus. That
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: is what I see. So, yes, I'm aware that I
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: have emotions, and in fact, when I have emotions about something,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I generally look at them and ask myself what is
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: this telling me about my own biases? And in fact,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of the time when I arrive at the
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: conclusion that women are not held to account. It's because
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: I have an immediate, knee jerk emotional reaction to holding
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: women to account. So I have often the opposite emotional
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: reaction to the reason argument that I eventually give. For example,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: there was a a story recently in the UK in
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: which I think he was might have been Nigerian, was
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: he was definitely African, an African immigrant who approached a woman,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: an American tourist on a train station, grabbed her ass
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: and she brandished a knife. He ran away, and in
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: the ensuing scuffle, she ended up being stabbed to death.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Now my immediate response was get rid of the fucker.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Just annihilate that that asshole who had the audacity to
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: touch a woman. How dare he? That was my initial response.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: They should all just die, all of those men who
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: touched women without women's consent, they should all just be
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: sent out back and shot. That was my initial emotional reaction.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: But then I stepped back and I said, let me
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: step through this logically, because I'm having a very strong
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: emotional reaction which is clouding my judgment. And I thought
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: about it, and I I don't believe from a logical, legal,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: rational and socially humanitarian stance that killing a man for
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: grabbing a woman's ass is correct. That's how I operate often.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: I do have an emotional response consistent with what you
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: would call gynocentrism, and then I question it and I
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: ask myself is this reasonable? And that's how I can
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: do a lot of the responses that I have. So
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, when you say I have this in particular
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: emotional framework, I probably share it with you, Natty. It's
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: just that I stop and I ask myself is that correct?
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: Mm hmm?
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: Sure, Okay. Would you say I have a question? Then
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: would you say that when you do that that sometimes
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: you then end up no late distrust, no distrusting the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: emotional response you may have in its entirety, or do
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: you do you try and reduce it a little bit
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: and still and still have an element of it there.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: I always test my emotional responses against the principles of
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: justice mm hmm. And if the principle of justice says
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: this is this is actually an injustice, then I don't
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: think it's an incorrect response. And in fact, I've never
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: actually gotten rid of my disgust towards men who engage
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: in sexual aggression against women in propriety against women. It's
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: still there, right, probably you have it as well, And
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: I still have to ask myself does this does this?
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Is this response consistent with the principles of justice?
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm sure? And I mean, are you saying that
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: when if you heard a man, sorry, if you heard
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: the opposite story, so, like, I don't.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Have a stronger response, Like I'll be completely honest, like
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: if I heard the opposite story, a man stabbing a
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: woman for grabbing his ass, I would actually be I
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: have the same emotional thing of oh, what how dare like?
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: How how an awful thing for him to do to
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: a woman? I still have that same emotional response. It's
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: just that I say, what are the principles of justice?
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: What are the principles of justice here? And well, of
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: course they're a little bit more constant in that circumstance.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Nobody has the right to stab someone for grabbing their ass, right,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: That's what I mean. Like, and this is what I'm
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: getting from this whole conversation. You're saying that people have
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: emotional biases, and I'm like, yeah, you're right, they do.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: That's why we have to step back and think, are
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: these emotions consistent with the principles of justice. Yes or no, right,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not a robot. I know that I
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: have emotions, and I know that I'm emotionally influenced. I've
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: actually think that my advocacy for men's issues has because
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: my mother died when she was in her fifties about
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: I guess eighteen years ago now. My advocacy for men's
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: issues actually made me appreciate my mother more. Her moral
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: courage was incredible, and her loyal to her to my
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: father was absolute, and she was the one who started
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: me on this path. So if I have mommy issues
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: in relation to men's issues, it's almost like a recognition
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: of how awesome my mother was that I'm doing this
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: and what she taught me through her example that you
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: don't back down from what you believe because someone is
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: being emotionally aggressive towards you. Someone is giving you a
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: carrot or a stick. Someone's calling you a pickmy or
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: a handmaiden, or impugning your sex life as being subpar,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: or calling you a coward. You don't step back, you
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: don't stop you. You stand by what you believe, even
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: in the face of whatever people can throw at you.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: That's the blessing my mother taught me and the only
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: thing that will stop me from standing for what I
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: believe is a reasoned argument that I can't tear apart
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: in ten seconds.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: But the thing is, we can talk about the rest
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: of what you said because I have.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: The ganes centrism worldview. It's not a reasoned argument.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's go back.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Well, let's let's let's uh, let's back up a little bit.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: Okay. So now I've read a lot of the literature
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: related to what people reterm gynocentrism, which is simply like
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: a bias towards other. People call it the women are
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: wonderful effect or implicit bias and other kind of stuff
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: like that. I've done a lot of reading on it.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: A second, Yeah, I know.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: Here's my point.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: Here's all the same as making an argument that women
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: that we have a culture that's women centered at the
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: expensive men.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, Here here's the issue. Okay, I
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: think we're arguing two things. Okay, now, okay, when you
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: say women centered to the expensive men, Okay, what you're
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: saying is, and again it could be because people have
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: the desire to benefit women but don't have the means,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: or it can have the means and the desire, and
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: you're saying that there is no desire to benefit women. Well, again,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: we go back to the literature which I've read. Have
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: you read the literature.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: About theory?
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: No, not about centrism, theory about implicit not the the
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: the women are wonderful authority.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: I was saying to you that if you want to
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: go through some of the studies that you've used, yea,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: why here's here's my.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: Why haven't you done the literature review?
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: Why haven't.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: Okay? All right, all right, Well, I mean, can I
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: just interject with a question. Okay, so while we're talking
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: about whatever we call ginocentrism, I think that there it's
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: a bit of a charge word because I think we
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: have like different interpretations of it. But let's just say
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: that is it fair that we understand that there there
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: is a real, like valid reason why a woman's safety
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: and security is more important than a man's like that
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: Like it's like, well, however you feel about that like irrelevant? Right,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: Like if you think it's unfair to men or whatever,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: or you think it's overstated, does it make sense that
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: women were given like priority in terms of their safety
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: and their security, and it was men's job to do it.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: And I'm not this is not a gotcha. I'm just
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying that because sometimes when people talk about ginocentrism,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: it's framed in this this is not fair and it
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: should not exist. But my belief is that, well, actually,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: like to some degree, it is fair and it and
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: that's just the way it is. It's sort of like
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: what you know, it's it's almost becomes used for the
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: reason why, oh, let's send women to war because we're equal.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: Let's see how they like it. But nobody wants to
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: do that, Like we find it distasteful, right, and a
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: normal person would and it wouldn't be good, not only
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: because we need women, you know, to perpetuate the species,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: but also because it's just like something that we're not
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: we're not comfortable with it as a principle. And I
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: think that whether you believe in you know, the our
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: divine origins or evolution, it's the same outcome, it's the
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: same thing, right, So what I'm I guess what I'm
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: saying is is that if you don't, if you disagree
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: with ginocentrism, but we agree on the let's say what
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: the what appeared to be the characteristics, which is that
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: men put like, our society makes an effort to protect
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: and provide for women so that they survive and reproduce,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: because that is in our nature to do that. Then like,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like we could be talking or you
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: guys could be talking past each other a bit. You
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get what you're saying, and that's what actually
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to get at. Regardless of what you call it.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: What is picked up in the literature is things like
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: people prefer to benefit women, people prefer to harm men
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: preferent like if there has to be harmed men or women.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: Women have more bias towards other women than men have
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: bias towards other men. You know, this is stuff that's
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: picked up in the literature. Then the literature it's also
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: mega bias or women are wonderful effect. So the question
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: is you've decided, and it could also be termed like
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: the the ginocentrism is within that umbrella. And then also
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: Brian's saying that, Oh yeah, I guess that is a
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: good point. Brian, do you believe that women should be
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: put first, Natty.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: It depends what you mean by put first, because I
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: don't actually believe that the fact.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: That it doesn't matter protected and provided for in a
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: way that we don't do to men.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: Essentially, well, life is suffering, right, life is suffering ultimately,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: So either either men are going to take the brunt
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: of that, or women are going to take the brunt
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: of that, or children are going to take the brunt
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: of that. And obviously we don't want that for children.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: And I think that when it comes down to just
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: men or women, men not only are they expected to
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: do it, but they're willing to do it, like they're
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: more willing to be you know, to essentially endure whatever
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: the suffering is in order to you know, like protect
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: their communities and their families and stuff like that.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: I don't agree that they actually do. I think in
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: throughout history men have been incentivized to do that.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, but we're a little bit off the topic. If
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: you believe what men should do, we're off topic. You
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: believe what men should is that? What is what men
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: should do? What Brian said saying that you understand who
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: didn't do it?
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: Hang on a minute, what is it? Can you guys place. Okay,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: come here. Do I believe that men should be doing
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: that for women? Is that what you're asking me?
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 8: Yes, okay, you know what, I don't think we should continue. So,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 8: like I said, I'm really uncomfortable with having a kid
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 8: on stream because this is our channel and we could
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 8: get it stricken.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: Situation. Just deal, that's fine, that's fine, Alison is okay,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: Just give me a second, will give them back to
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: your dad. Sometimes they know that I'm doing this, but
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: that doesn't mean I'm not interrupted.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not. I don't have to pub with the interrupt.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: My problem is the same.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 3: I know you're on your channel. If you have a child,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: then you have to put it a thank mom.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: Hey all right, Uh we'll just a moment in Q
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: cell I see you in here. I'm sorry. If you
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: want to listen to the actual conversation, go to the
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: YouTube channel and check it out there. I know you're like,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: he's been hanging around in the Twitter space for the
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: entire time, like quietly, I know he's like, you're cool, though, bro,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: you know, sorry, I didn't. I It's all right, it's okay.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: If you're star Wars, you don't you don't leave. You know,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: if you're a kid and you're watching Star Wars for
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: the first time, but he the youngest anyway, let me
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: keep going. So what I was I gonna.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: Say it is do you believe that that is? I
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: think that the question was do you believe that women
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: should be not whether or not it's happening, but do
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: you believe that it should be the case?
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: I guess so they should be protected and provided for?
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: Or like, is that specifically what you're asking or actually.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: Can I get in here and actually ask it in
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: relation to what you were talking about during Okay, sure,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: where you're laying down your thesis, do you think that
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: men should take responsibility for women's actions?
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: No?
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, in what circumstances do men not take responsibility for
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: women's actions?
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: I don't think that men take responsibility for women's actions. No, no, no,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: no no.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: Do you think they should not?
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: Do you?
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: So you don't think they should? So the situation now
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: is good? All right?
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: I mean the situation now at this particular moment in
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: our culture, in both the UK and the US, I
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 3: would say that there's general league kind of egalitarian, relatively
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 3: equitable in terms of like who who's who's being held
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: accountable or who's been responsible. I still think that there's
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: issues with how patriarchal things, patriarchal attitudes. I do think
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: that hang on, Allison, my gosh, please, I do think
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: that there are elements of gnocentrism. But overall, overall, yeah,
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: I don't think that we have a gerno centric society overall. Okay,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: as kind o anyway, So I will let me try
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: and finish what I think you're getting at. Right, in
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: my worldview, Adam as in man Man as in Adam
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: right has headship and headship. It's not necessarily about being
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: some kind of dictator. But I'm going to answer your quest.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: Let me just let me get it out. He's not
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: a dictator. But at the same time, he is not
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: like just taking on all of the responsibility like Peter
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: Wright claims in his in his in his writing, where
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: he is like literally laying laying down and taking on
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: everything that a woman throws at him and taking on
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: all the responsibility or accountability sorry is the right word
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: for accents that she may make. I don't believe either
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: of those two positions are what we should be striving
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: for at all. Headship in Worvots Christianity and Christianity generally speaking,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: is that if Adam is submitting himself to God and
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: to the virtues and the framework that Christianity gives him,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: he is leading in service. So there's this term servant leadership. Okay,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: but he's in service to God, right, And to be
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: in service to God, you need to be in service
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: to everyone else around you because as a Christian, you're
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: supposed to try and put other people's needs first because
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: God's given you mercy. God forgives, and so you forgive
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: others and you're following. You're following God. You're following with
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: what Christ taught you when he from the New Testament.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: And women are supposed to be doing the same thing.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: But the difference is that that Adam is doing it
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: first because he's the head. There's headship, okay, and headship
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: is not about Please don't interrupt me, please, I know,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: but you need you need to not interrupt me again.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: I have told you not to do that. Okay, I
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: love you, but look, you really, I can't have money here. Sorry, no,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: just go and tell Daddie that I know, but you
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: need to go and tell Daddy that please, I can't
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: because God have children on her street, and she's going
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: to get mad at me if he's coming it. Okay,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: I love you, thank you. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We might okay finish your point, but we may
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: have to wrap this up soon because the babies are
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: getting restless.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah all right, So now he'll be fine when he
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: when he realizes that he's got daddy. Yeah, and he
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: loves that anyway. So what I'm trying to explain is this,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: I don't think that the kind of more worldly example
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: of of of what like headship looks like, Oh my.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: Gosh, Okay, I think that this is really just not
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: gonna really functionally work at this point. I think that
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: she's uh just has too many responsibilities at this time.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: But what I was trying to get at with that
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: is we can talk about women, you know, men protecting
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: and providing for women. One of the big things that
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: seems to be the point of contention is men taking
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: responsibility for women and women's actions.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: Right, I've locked my door. Now we have a lock
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: on the door, so no problem, all right, Okay, So
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: what I'm trying to say to you is that this
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: kind of idea that you need to choose between these
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: two extremes is something that I'm just trying to challenge.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: I'm saying that Adam having headship or men having headship
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: in general, it's not based on this idea that the
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: woman doesn't have any responsibility and that she is not
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: held accountable for any of her actions because she has
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: her own domain. And she also is trying to help
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: Adam because she's also trying to provide to be in service.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: So let me give you, let me give you this
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 3: teaching that I always c when I talk about this
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: in the New Testament. There's this I am, there's this
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: exegesis idea that that observation, sorry, that Jesus is the prophets,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: the priest, and the king right three different roles, and
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: if we are to follow and be christ Like as Christians,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: then we have to fulfill those three roles at some
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: point in our lives, right, and so and this sort
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: of follows a kind of transmutation of the Holy Trinity,
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: which has you know, three persons. There's three roles right
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: in that way, and so the Adam starts off with
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: the kingly office, right, that's his primary office. He fulfills
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: the kingly role all right, okay, and then Eve starts
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: off as the woman starts off with the prophet office, okay,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: And a prophet is someone who's a truth teller who
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: you know, received revelation from from the Holy Spirit. Yeah,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: that's what a profit generally is when you look in
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 3: the Bible. And so the prophet and the king are
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: going to work together because you know, a king will
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: maybe leading from the front and leading by example, but
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: the prophet will be helping to guide the king will
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 3: be giving the king information, right, and so then they're
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: working together in that way. But they are to fulfill
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: that office in a priestly manner, which means they're trying
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 3: to submit to God and trying to live the asthetic
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: life in a way that a priest may like may
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: do right. And then there's this idea that once they
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 3: fulfill that office, then they can sort of move into
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: the opposite office, so the king can be more prophet
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 3: like and the prophet the woman can be more kingly
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: like or Queen Lee. She's a woman. So if you
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: think about it, when a woman becomes older, she's more matriarchal,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: more likely to have a sort of more leadership role
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: or be more respected in that role as an older woman.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: A man, when he becomes older, he's become more likely
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: to become He's going to become wise, which is where
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: this kind of wise old man's stereotype comes from. Right,
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: and then you fulfill that a in a priestly manner.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: The reason I'm bringing this in is I'm trying to
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: say that I think as part of our fallen state
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: in humanity, there is this idea that men should be
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 3: leading by example and should be leading from the front
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: and maybe should be sacrificing themselves for others in that sense, right,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: because they should be kind of kingly in this way.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: And I think this is something that God tells us.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: But because if you're not a Christian, you're not necessarily
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: doing it in submission to God. It's just something that,
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: you know, is there something that most of us have
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: a bias of, you know that we experience? Yeah? And
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: so the other interesting part about this, and this is
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: what links to Peter Wright's guid and centrism theory, is
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: that his theory, as far as I'm concerned, is based
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: on this deep presentment about Mary, the Mother of God,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 3: the Theotokos. We're talking abe, I don't hang on a second.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: It's relevant to the point he dismisses the fact that
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: she she said yes to God, the Holy Spirit put
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: Jesus in her Okay. Then she went through a process,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: a self sacrificial process, too right, to give birth to him.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: And then when he was alive, she was also doing
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: you know, she sacrificed too right. So there's there's a
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: there's a sort of complete dismissal of the fact that, yeah,
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: a man may be expected to be leading from the
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: front in a kind of charging from the front type
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 3: of way. He may be fighting in a war. He
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: may be doing things in a more physical manner maybe, okay,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: But then there's this this complete dismissal that a woman
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: may be actually her sort of profit like role actually
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: is linked to the fact that she may become a mother,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: and there is a level of service or sacrifice involved
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: in that. And those two things are in our society,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: I don't believe, are deemed to be equitable or co equal. Right,
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: So they're not the same, but they're equal in status. Yeah,
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 3: So I'm trying to what the reason why one of
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: the reasons why that I dismiss the idea that we
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 3: go in the centric overall now is because our culture
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: does not value that that aspect of womanhood in a
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 3: co equal way to some of the.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: Because it's sacrifice and responsibility. That you are describing the
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: Marian example as sacrifice and responsibility. It's probably why the
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: the monks of Mount Athos did I say that, right, Brian,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: say that the only woman who's allowed to enter their
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: monastery is Mother Mary because she represents an ideal sacrifice
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: and responsibility that no woman can truly live up to.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: No woman can involve.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: The same way that men can't live up to Christ.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: But they work towards it.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll work towards it.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: But I think that from talking to Peter, which I
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: occasionally do and I'm probably putting words in his mouth
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: because we do disagree, I think that he'd has no
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: problem with the Marian example of responsibility and sacrifice. His
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: problem is that he doesn't think women are held to it,
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: and that this is going back to the entire argument here,
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: the whole argument around women's accountability. I mean, as I
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: was listening to you, it occurred to me maybe this
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: will sum it up concisely. Is we as a society
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: do not hold women to the same level of account
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: for their behavior towards men as we hold men towards
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: their behavior towards women. And I mean we can we
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: can have a discussion on whether or not that's the case.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can cite the statistics regarding how we
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: sentence women for crimes against men, whether or not we
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: even think about women's crimes against men, or just simply
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: excuse them by saying, oh, they're they're allegedly fewer of them,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But that's what
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: it all comes down to.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: It's the it's yes. And then I can quote, and
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 3: then I can mention the terribly low rate conviction rates
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: that they don't seem to be able to have worked
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: out a way of actually convicting rapists properly.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: Oh that is are you talking about? In the UK?
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: All right, here we go. I'm going to give you
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: a resource. The conviction rates of rape in the UK
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: are actually half times higher than any other crime.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: And that is that O.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: And in the in the US, the conviction rates for
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: rape are four times higher. Like yet, the conviction rates
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: rate for a reported violent crime, most reported violent crimes
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: is about two percent, might be two point seven, so
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: don't quote me. The conviction rate for sexual assault and
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: other like contact sexual crimes is eight percent, so once
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: it's reported, that's the conviction rate. So this is absolute nonsense.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: And where it comes from is feminists are taking the
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: rate at which people respond to questions on an anonymous survey,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: which is have you been have you been forced to
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: have sex in the in the in the last year.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: They are often lumping together the male respondents with the female,
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: getting a total population estimate and then comparing that to
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: the rate of convictions of rape. That is completely dishonest.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: Now I can get you that resource rate, now, okay.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: So when I was doing men's white saxivism stuff and
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: I interviewed Barnett Survivors Limited, who specializes in working with
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: men who have been falsely accused, he said to me,
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: the biggest issue overall is the rape conviction rate, that
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: it needs to be higher, and that rape prevalence of
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 3: rape is more than what he sees in terms of
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: the conviction.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: Wait, let let nanny finish, but I do want to
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: say something.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: Even though you could say that he actually has a
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: bias in favor of the other way to say that
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: that there's more fourth accusations and that there's an issue
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: with force accusations. You could you could even claim that
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 3: he's actually coming from a bias point of view, and
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 3: he even says that that's that there's an issue there, right,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 3: and the amount of sexual assault that if you just
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: do surveys and we can we could even go into whatever. Right,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: when you actually find out the prevalence of sexual assault
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: and then rape those two together, yeah, you find that
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: they don't get reported as often as they should. And
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 3: that's what he's talking about as well. He's saying that
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: that you know a lot of women won't won't go
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: through the trouble of reporting them. So the reason I
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: bring that up is I'm trying to say to you,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: I recognize the criminal justice gap data. I haven't rejected
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: that and saying that that's completely incorrect. I'm saying that, well,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 3: you've got that, and then you've got the sexual assault
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: and rape issue, and then you put them together and
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 3: you're like, okay, well this kind of evens each other out.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: It does absolutely does not. Now I know that in
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: the UK, it's not a woman can't rape a man legally.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: But the fact is that the amount of men who
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: are victims and do not report is far higher than
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: the amount of more women and do not report. So
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: we're looking at at a system that when women report
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: actually preferentially they see justice. Now, maybe they don't want
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: to report for whatever reason, that's on them. It's their decision.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: It's like if you go to a buffet and you
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: choose the chicken and not the beef, that's on you. Sorry,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: what why should the decision because criminals exist of both
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: sexes and that's probably gonna.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 3: No, No, I'm saying, why is the decision that the
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: woman is not going to report probably feminist?
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: He told her that she's not going to get justice.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: In fact, we've heard examples of that in our own show.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 3: No, I'm sorry that attitude existed before feminism.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: Well, but also of the conviction, did we have data
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: before feminism? Yes, we do have data before before Wait
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: before which? Before which incarnation of feminismism? I think I
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: think that we're really floating around a lot in the
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: theoretical right now because we can't know what we don't know.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: And and no, but I'm saying when you say, well,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: obviously these crimes happen even though they're not reporting it.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, how do we know they're happening.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: About that?
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are anonymous surveys. But the problem is
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: those anonymous surveys are uncovering incredibly high rates of sexual
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: violence against men by women that men do not report
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: at all. Like, and here's here's the thing. This is
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying, The is available option. Let me finish.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: The option is available to women.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 3: In conversation, have I said that men women don't do anything?
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: The option is available to women. Well, you're saying that
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 2: women are.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 3: What the issues, Nattie.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: Let me finished. Let me finish. I'm saying that when
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: women are subject to sexual violence by men, possibly not
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: by other women, they are allowed or they have the
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: option to report, and when they report, the justice system
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: will they will see justice more than victims of other
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: violent crimes. They are more likely to see justice relative
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: to victims of other violent crimes. Men do not report
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: at all. Men who are survivors of these issues have
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: said that the cops laugh at them, that there is
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: huge barriers to report. Say the situation is equal for
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 2: female victims.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: You make more that you understand when I'm talking about
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 3: a women's issue. I am not dismissing that men may
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: have an issue that's similar all the same. I am
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: not doing that at all. And that tends to be
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: how you guys have operated for a long time now
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 3: that you think that that you think automatically, that's what
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 3: a woman or a feminist, or.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: You're saying that.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: When you both talk, nobody can hear.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: But you are aggression because the original state.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: It's not a digression. We can go back to. We
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: can go back to the original example.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: The original the original statement was that I said women
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: are not held to account in the same way that
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: men are held to account. And I use the example
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: of sexual abuse. I mean, it's it's patently obvious, in
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: an arguable you can't even a woman cannot even be
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: charged with rape in the UK for using sexual violence
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: against the men. In fact, statutory rape may not even
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: really exist when it happened when a woman in the
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: UK has sex with an underage boy like that that
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: I've looked at the statue, it's like they can't I
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: don't know what they call it, and it's almost like
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: it doesn't exist. So the situation is that in the
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: law women aren't held as accountable now in practice.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 3: That women ripe nessary right, the same men.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: I have been.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: That.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: You just demonstrated that you have no idea of what
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 3: As well.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, you have.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 3: Done numerous times, and it's been pointing out its not
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: it has.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: What rextly pointed out. Because and here's the problem when
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 2: we're talking about a conclusion in this conversation.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 3: I've tried to be like, look the world view that you.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: Are that you have finish because you are wrong.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 9: I'm sorry, all right, we're not honest about all right,
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 9: I'm gonna is that the all right, yeah, I'm gonna
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 9: start muting people.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead, Alison. Let's try. Let's try not to
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: throw any like, you know, at hominems or anything. No,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: it's fine, it's fine. Let's try not to throw any
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: at hominem's get your pussy off the camera, Alison. Okay,
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: go ahead, and uh just kidding, just kidding, go ahead.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: The the data and first of all, this is something
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: I've talked to. There are two issues here. One are
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: women held to the same account when they are sexually
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: aggressive against when as men are in the reverse, And
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: the answer is no, they're not. They're absolutely not. Okay,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter if we look at prevalence, that doesn't matter.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: That's an issue of rates of sociopathy plus abuse, unaddressed
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: abuse of the population. That's what prevalence relates to. Now,
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: the second issue is the science around who is doing what.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: First of all, all of the statistics that I've seen
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: that have shown a greater rate, or most of them
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: at least if they're not feminists have said that they
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: do not know if the greater rate of women reporting
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: is due to an actual situation where women are experiencing more,
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: or if it's because of all of the barriers to
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 2: men reporting. And then we find the surveys that do
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: show equal rates of men reporting or greater or high
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: rates of women reporting their own sexual violence. Now, what
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: is that situation? You can't just ignore the fact that
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: we have methodologies now that find equal or greater rates
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: of male victimization. You can't just ignore that. When you're
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: asserting that women are the primary victims of something, you
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: are making an assertion. You are actually making a causal hypothesis,
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: and that causal hypothesis is that being a woman equals
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: a greater rate of being sexually victimized. Now, if you
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: find data pointspose your causal hypothesis, you can't keep asserting it, period.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 2: There's no way you can keep asserting it. Honestly, that
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: is what I'm saying.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 3: We are all going through the data right now, are we?
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we we've gone for a while, so, like
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: almost two hours. I don't I don't know, like we
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: can Natty, if you're fine with it, we can have
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: you back on and talk about whatever you want. I
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: don't know if Allison's fine with it, but.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: We can discuss.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we were going through a bunch of stuff.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 3: The links of the data that you're using in advance,
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 3: and you've.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: Already said they've been discredited, so you already have them
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: all right, Yeah.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 3: So, I mean I have seen some stuff before, but
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know what exactly you're talking about. Right, It
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 3: doesn't matter how.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: Many they are, there are a sufficient number to indicate
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: that your hypothesis.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 3: Has to go out. There are other ways that I
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 3: can bring things I can bring up now that will
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 3: indicate to you, indicate to the audience or whatever that
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 3: that this can't necessarily be true overall.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 3: One of them would be one of them, would be
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 3: one of them would be poor usage. For example, Okay,
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: so sixty to seventy percent of men use porn on
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 3: the regular and women between well.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: Alison, let her finish, Let her finish. It's okay, let
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: her finish. Go ahead, Matty.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: That's one example that will demonstrate to you the levels
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 3: of urges of sexuality and the kind of like prevalence
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 3: of how often men need to, you know, have sex
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 3: or watch people having sex. And then then you start
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 3: to talk about what they're viewing and how rough and
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 3: aggressive that sexual act may be, and what that may
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 3: tell you about what it is that they primarily want.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: Or if I may ask, well, how are we defining
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: porn in this instance? Out of curiosity, because there's a
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's borderline out there, but I just
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: want to.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 3: Know, Well, I'm talking about watching people having sex on
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 3: the internet, not just looking at naked pictures of ladies
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: and men.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: How about also written pornography? Does that not count?
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: You mean like sex books about sex and stuff like
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 3: a Mills and Boom book.
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: Or literally.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well fifty Shades of gray. And as an example
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: is the BDSN story where the woman is pretending to
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: be a victim of uh, you know, being in given consent.
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 3: What does porn have to do with the like the
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 3: thing is that I'm glad you have to do with
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 3: it as.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm talking about actual stats on the Okay.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, give you an example.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: No, no, you know what this is nonsense. Porn has
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 2: nothing to do like you're like, I dismiss the rate
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: at which people reveal that they've been sexually abused. I'm
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: going to talk about porn to do to approximate what
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: nothing like.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 3: You can't present this idea.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not to have a question. You cannot honestly prepresenting
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: this idea that sat stats about the rate of porn
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: use has more relevant relevance to the rate at which
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: men and women are subject to sexual abuse than the
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: statistics related to men and women revealing how much they're
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: subject to sexual abuse. You, this is nonsense.
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to be part of How could like
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 3: porn usage not tell us anything about the psychology?
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: Porn usage represents people's fantasies. They don't always act out
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: their fantasies. In fact, I have I have a study
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: that shows both men and women prefer the submissive position
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: in BDS and m okay, and also that when women
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: do look at porn, it's the more violent stuff. It's
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: all of this stuff is irrelevant.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah wait, wait, wait there in, if you're if you're both,
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: if you're both.
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: Talking enterment, not going to engage in there in, let's
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: look at what they say about what they've experienced.
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: Shoot, oh my god. Okay, yeah, yeah, well we we
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: should we should. I think this is like another conversation
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: we should I don't I don't think we shouldn't have it,
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: but I'm saying, like, this has been going for two hours,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: and I'm getting hungry, getting a little hungry, and.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what we're going to do with
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: the X space. Nobody's in it.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: Oh and no one's in it. I mean in cell
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: is in it. I don't mean to disrespect brou he's
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: been chilling in there. You know, he's probably fine, but uh,
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: I don't want to like make this longer, but I
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: would say this. I think we should put a pause,
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: maybe do another one. If not, he's okay with it,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: we can set another day and talk more. I think
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: this is a fascinating conversation. I hope that you guys
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: are are enjoying it as well. It's like the only
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: reason why I want to do this was because I
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: wanted people to have these discussions. I will, I will
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: say that I don't think it's and this is like
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: just a little critique. I don't think it's fair to
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: hold us to the to like your disagreement with Peter
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: Wright have nothing to do with us, really, Like if
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: you disagree with him, I don't know everything that he's written.
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: I don't read his stuff. He's DMed me a couple
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: of times. I'm I don't. I think that the term
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: gynocentrism is really overused. That doesn't mean that I don't
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: think there's something there that is worth talking about. That's
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: always been my position, and I don't. I don't even
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: use it that much, the term myself, because I do
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: think it could be overused, like a lot of things,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: that it could be used to just explain away everything.
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: And I don't think it's necessarily bad that men, you know,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: generally like put themselves in harm's way to protect women
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 1: and children. I think that's probably the way it should
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: be and that's okay, right, and so, but I would
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: just say that in the future. If we're going to
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: discuss ginocentrism, that's fine, but I don't I don't want
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: to answer for Peter Wright. I don't think Alison would either,
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: So I think that we should talk about it outside
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: of that, if possible.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: The list of which is me and Peter have our
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: own disagreements, so I don't want to speak because then
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: I'll be putting words in it.
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 3: You do, I'm sure you do.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 3: My My response to that is that he was the
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 3: one who popularized this term more than anyone else, and
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 3: so anyone's using it is in reference to what he's
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: put out there.
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I also know that I also know that
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: he generally avoids confrontations, so I'm sure that you've probably
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: tried to call him out multiple times and he just
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't respond to him with Yeah.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 3: I'm sure he likes to try and put messaging out
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 3: there that gets people to attack them me or others, And.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: Well, again, I I don't think we should answer for
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: any of that either. I know there's a lot of
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: people on X that, you know, like they have their
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 1: clicks and all that. I don't do that at all.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: I just stick to this because I don't know anything
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: about it. So again, uh, I don't. I don't know
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: anything about the flying monkeys. I know that there are
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: flying monkeys, but I don't. I don't deal with that
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: at all.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that Peter is engaging in any of that.
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 3: From what I don't do the dirty work himself he gets.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: I don't even think he's he's actually even inciting anything
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: either from my conversation with I know, I don't think so.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: I think that this is just.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: People the things that you say on there are some
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: people that are terminally online. Maybe I don't know. I
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: mean I think that you could, you know, pick your
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: battles is how I see it.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, pick your battles. And the thing is that
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: there are all kinds of people on Twitter who will
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: get upset at what you say and have strange.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 3: As like or X, even as it's called.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think you guys are being disingenuous
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 3: about that. But I'm not gonna lay with that point.
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: But I mean disingenuous. I'm saying what I observe from
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: having a closer association with Peter Wright. I do not
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: think that he is in any way responsible for sending
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: flying monkeys towards you. I don't think he thinks about
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: you enough to do such a thing, like honestly, I'll
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: be really honest.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 3: Hey, I haven't claimed that he thinks about me all
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 3: the time at all. I'm not claiming that.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that.
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 3: I do know. I do know though, that the worldview
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 3: that he promotes, it does put this messaging out there
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: that if a woman disagrees, say like I am, you know,
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a betrayer. I left believing and
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 3: promoting this this worldview, which is very similar to what
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 3: you guys are doing, right, Okay, And there are others
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: that have done the same, and they've been treated to
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 3: a very similar weird smear campaign with certain people who
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: then well, especially as a woman, because the whole thing
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: is that female narcissism is what's running society, and women
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: have been encouraged to become narcissistic, and therefore, who disagrees
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: with that, then therefore I must be an example of it, right.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, but you do the same thing, Nattie,
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: when you talk about how people have used mother issues
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: and they advocate from it runs right.
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 3: Like mental health conditions based on the fact that I
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 3: don't like them. I might say having an issue with
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 3: your mom or your dad. That is not the same
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: thing as claiming somebody is a psychopath, a sociopath, a narcissist,
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 3: or personality disorder. Yeah, these are as you what would
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 3: you call.
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: A threat narrative, Or they could also be using the
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: colonial term for narcissist, because if women are being that's
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: not clinical narcissism clinical narcissism. As a result, likely.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 3: The use of that term narcissism now is done in
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 3: a deliberate way where I could say something like that
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 3: wasn't that was narcissistic, or saying that in that way
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 3: sounds narcissistic, and then someone goes, well, that person's a narcissist, right,
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 3: And then immediately there's this association that they have narcissistic
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 3: personality disorder and that they are therefore in this category
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 3: of being insane and crazy. Yeah, and then immediately you
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 3: are to just dismissed that person.
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: I just again that I talk about people's I talk
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 2: about people's you know, there's You're right, there's no point
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 2: bringing it to the area. Oh you've got mother issues.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: Everything comes down to luck and reason, because that's the
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: place aside you set aside your your aspirations against people's character,
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 2: you set outside your emotional tools, and you know, Meriage.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 3: I tried to stay faithful to the fact that I
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 3: understand that those.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: Two you want to keep the weapons for yourself, but
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: you don't want other people deploying them against you.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 3: No, but but.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: I probably I really need to get going, But you need.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 3: To get going. I'll just say a couple of comments.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 3: As I said, the idea that the West is going nocentric,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, comes from a framework and
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 3: a theory that is anti Christian in nature, and particularly
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 3: is an attack on what the Theotocus did or what
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: Even if you don't agree that she actually existed and
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 3: you're not a Christian, you can at least acknowledge that
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: the archetype or how this transmuted in the culture, in
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 3: the influence on women in our culture, is what he's
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 3: saying in the theory. And I'm saying that he popularized
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 3: the use of it. Okay, we have the entire right
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 3: wing using the term at this point, right, Okay, even
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 3: the origins of the term where they come from in
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 3: the first place. So why, Well, the reason why? Why?
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 3: Because when you actually going through an analysis of it,
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 3: it turns out it's historically revisionist and it's just not true.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: You're incted to be self sacrificial. Let me, it's quite
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 3: obviously bunk uh.
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you why I'm saying. So what Paul
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: Right may have popularized the term, what Peter Wright may
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: have popularized the term makes me about along may have
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: popularized the term. But what his hypothesis is is where
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 2: it comes from? Can he actually is in opposition from
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: the evo psych people who believe that ginocentrism is innate right.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: He thinks that it is cultural right, So that there
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: is a schism there. So there's a whole bunch of
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: people who disagree with him on the innate versus cultural matter. Now,
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: none of this is relevant because what he has brought
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: is where he thinks ginocentralism start. He doesn't even think
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: it started with Marianism or Mary. He thinks it starts
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 2: literally in courtly love. Now all of that, again is
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: so what because ginocentrism.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 3: Is at the same time, if you rememberism.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: Itself derives its power not from preetor Right's idea of
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: where it came from, which many people disagree with by
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 2: the way it derives its power from observable studies and statistics. Okay,
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 2: that's why people believe it.
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 3: And talk about it's not why people believe it.
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 2: No, well, it certainly don't because well.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 3: Those people that listen to this idea that the West
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 3: has gone eccentric, they they don't believe it because they've
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 3: taken in statistics. They believe it because there is something.
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 3: There's something about us humans.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 2: Now you're you're you're impuning. Now you're saying, you're saying,
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: my enemy is subject to emotional reasoning, therefore they're wrong.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 2: You see what I'm talking about that you want to
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: keep the weapons for yourself, but you want people are
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: saying that you say what and believe what you believe
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: anyway because they hate women or whatever else. Let's set
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: aside all of that rhetoric and just bring it down
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: to what the studies show.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 3: That's why we do that. Again, I don't agree with you.
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 3: The study show that well every single one women that okay,
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 3: particular that I know that's one that you've used. I've
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 3: seen that one before, and that one is definitely misrepresented
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 3: by you for sure, right.
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: Center of disease control, like the only difference, the only
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: difference between what I do, which actually you know what,
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't even have sat Which one are you talking about?
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 2: Because I do multiple? Okay, don't you need to go No, No,
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: tell me which one which domestic violence survey I misrepresent?
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: Because I do a whole bunch.
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 1: Let's let's come back to this, Alison. I'm seriously and
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: a half hours. Well, revisit it. Let's all, let's just
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: let our let's all.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 2: I want to revisit this whole thing, like gynocentrism and
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: all of the all of the stats and studies. That's sure, Yeah, literature, it's.
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: Actually I wonderful, I think I I I think that
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: could be worth taking a look at. I I think
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: we at least began the conversation that was the subject,
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: our women absolved of accountability? Enough, but not not not really,
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: But we started that conversation. That's fine, that's fine. Like
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: no one knows where knew where was gonna go. But
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna, like, as the man as the head,
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a call. I'm gonna kingly say we're
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: gonna stop this now, hear ye or whatever it is,
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: the Kings say, and uh, I'm gonna like end it there,
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 1: but we'll discuss uh doing this again. I I like
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: that I got the space thing to work somewhat, but
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: it really didn't benefit us this time. But we I
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: can do this in the future. Maybe we'll stream a
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: Twitter space. I don't know. I don't know. We'll see.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: But anyway, Alison, are you cool with me ending the show?
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fine. I got I got a few other stuff.
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's fine. Okay, So I will
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: end the show there. If you guys like this video,
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: please hit like subscribe. If not subscribe, if you're not
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: already subscribed, hit the bell for notifications, leave us a comment,
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: let us know what you guys think about what we
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: discussed on the show today. And please please please share
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: this video because sharing is caring. Thank you guys so
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: much for coming on this episode of whatever this is.
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: I think it was just like a Twitter conversation with Natty.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: I want to thank Naty for coming on and hanging
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: out with us, and we will talk to you guys
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: in the next one. The Emperor protect