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What Makes a Great Consulting Partnership? · The Strategic Pause

• Katrina Kennedy: Hello friends, welcome to The Strategic Pause, I'm Katrina Kennedy here with Jill Parrish. And today is episode 11, where we are exploring partnering with a consultant. There are a lot of us out there. A lot of us have been doing this for a long time. So how do you make the most of this relationship? But before we dig into working with us, Jill. Jill Parish: So many of us, so many of us. So many of us. Katrina Kennedy: If want to share how you ended up in that consultant role. Jill Parish: Yes, absolutely. And it's so funny because as we are just starting to talk about this, I'm thinking there's no degree to be a consultant. You cannot go to school to be a consultant. There really is no and I hadn't really ever thought about that before. There's no consultant degree or consultant education. But regardless, maybe we'll get back to that. ⁓ my past is actually with large organizations. So I worked in larger organizations, ⁓ the UC system and a big healthcare system for most of my career. And when I was at UC Davis, which was my last organization I worked for before, ⁓ opening my firm, ⁓ I sort of was in this. kind of consulting world within a university. It's a kind of a very niche spot within the university that most people probably don't know exists. And so that was my tiptoe into consulting ⁓ and really loved it. Actually, I loved being at that level. I have always had a total fascination, fascination, fascination. I don't know, whatever. Katrina Kennedy: Well, you made a word. did. Fascinization. Excellent. Excellent. Jill Parish: It's like really excited about something with how organizations work. And I really have always wondered like, what does that organization do? And I remember one time my boss, who was my boss for like seven years, a phenomenal boss. Hi, Loretta, if you're listening. I told her, was like, I'm so interested in like what all these different organizations do. And she's like, sounds like you want to be a consultant. And I was like, what does that even mean? so when I was at UC Davis, I kind of tiptoed into that and decided I really loved that. I loved being able to be involved in lots of different organizations and to really just be able to focus on the stuff that I loved because consultants are really specialists. ⁓ kind of at the core. And so that was really appealing to me to be able to just do the stuff that I love for all sorts of different organizations. Anyhow, so that's sort of how I got, and then when I left UC Davis, I knew that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to go into consulting. And so I knew that was my next path. What about you? Your path is very different. So tell us about your path. Katrina Kennedy: My path is substantially different. ⁓ 30 years ago, I was working, 30 years ago when I was six, 30 years ago when I was six, I was working on my master's in human resource management and development. Jill Parish: When you were six. Katrina Kennedy: And ⁓ one of the classes that I was taking was an organizational development class. We were using Peter Block's ⁓ Flawless Consulting book as the book, know, the legendary book that talks about the presenting problem is never the problem. And as part of my master's program, I was also working full time for the district attorney's office enforcing child support. ⁓ Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Right. Katrina Kennedy: And we had a consultant who came in. His name is Tom Jones, ⁓ not the singer. ⁓ Jill Parish: I was just gonna say, wow, that's quite a consultant! Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, no, not Tom Jones. ⁓ I almost just said song names and then realized maybe that's inappropriate. But anyway, ⁓ and then, yeah. And the fact that I know Tom Jones songs, like that's a whole other story. ⁓ And might've even seen him in concert once. But anyway, not that Tom Jones, the other Tom Jones. ⁓ Jill Parish: It's still early. We'll get to the inappropriate things towards the end of the episode. you The other Tom Jones. Katrina Kennedy: He was helping us through an organizational ⁓ reorganization. And ⁓ because I was working on my masters, I helped, I supported that reorganization. So I was helping the organization I worked for and writing about it in my master's program, kind of this double duty. And I said to him, Tom, like, you know, the classic line, you've probably heard this from people, Tom, how do I be you? How do I like, yeah. Jill Parish: Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: You know, how do I, how do I, how do I get your job? And he grew, he drew this bell curve, shape curve on the whiteboard. And he showed me how much I should charge going in, how much I should, how long I'd need to be in business in order to stay in business. And like the point that I would want to quit and, you know, just laid it all out and. Jill Parish: do I get your job? Yep, yep. That's cool. Katrina Kennedy: It was really cool. And then I, I said to him, like, I would really love to focus on training trainers. Like that's kind of the niche I want. And he said there, there's no market in that you should just do everything for everyone. So I was like, okay, that's what I'll do. ⁓ because Tom has said so and, ⁓ you know, and that's also like my memory of something 30 years ago. So to his benefit, that may not have been exactly what he meant, but that's what I took it as. Jill Parish: Yeah. Right. You're going to get a letter from Tom Jones. Yup. The strategic pauses first legal engagement. Katrina Kennedy: Just in case Tom Jones is listening. Cease and desist. Yeah. The strategic pause's first strategic pause. so, so shortly after I finished my masters, I left the district attorney's office and went out on my own and, ⁓ did a variety of things for a variety of clients. I, ⁓ you know, my, my first big contracts, ⁓ were for strategic planning with nonprofit organizations. And then that just kind of morphed and became lots of different things over the last 30 years before I landed where I am now ⁓ with, you know, kind of focusing on training for trainers and everything around that. ⁓ But it's, you know, it, was, It's interesting because our field changes, but that kind of the root of it all is still that, you know, going back to Peter Block and, you know, the presenting problem and what is it is never what it is. And then really digging in deeper ⁓ and seeing how organizations work is kind of a fascination of mine too. fascination, is a fascinazi- Jill Parish: Fascinization? Fascinization of yours also? OK. Good. OK, good. Katrina Kennedy: It is a fascination of mine as well, as well. Yeah, ⁓ so I think it's interesting, you we have two different perspectives, we have two different backgrounds, ⁓ but then I think there are some commonalities when it comes to thinking about how we're used and why people should reach out to us. So. Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: You've been on both sides. You've both been in an organization and been out, been out on your own. ⁓ what, when is it that someone should partner with a consultant? Jill Parish: Yeah, and I, know, it's confession time because I'm gonna confess that when I was with the large organizations I was with, there was a tendency to wanna bring in consultants and I actually hated having consultants come in. So I'm confessing now, I understand the resistance and the reason that it drove me crazy and there's a lot of reasons ⁓ is because as an internal employee, I would say, you know, I propose we do this for XYZ and the senior leadership teams would be like, that's interesting. Let's explore other options. And then they'd pay, you know, hundreds of thousand dollars to bring a consultant in. And the consultant would be like, I think we should do XYZ. And it was the same thing I had proposed like eight months prior. And it was just so frustrating because there is this credibility given to outside third parties that really bugged me as an internal employee. So I understand from that, you know, from that perspective that it's not always necessary to bring in outside help. And so I do like to encourage organizations like, is this something you can do internally? The challenge right now is there's so many people who have reduced FTEs so much. There is not a lot of, I don't want to use the word extra, there's not a lot of bandwidth for the kinds of work that you and I do, the training and the development and the leader development and the professional development. I do think organizations still believe in it deeply, thankfully, many of them, but there's not a lot of people within the organization that can do that kind of work because they're very busy. doing the, you know, usually it falls within HR. And so they're very busy doing the payroll and the employee investigations and the other critical things that you really have to keep in house. And so a perfect reason, you know, to hire a consultant or hire a team of consultants is to implement something like that. The organization believes in it. They have somebody who's willing to partner with a consultant and we can get into that, but that is critical. You cannot just bring a consultant in and then just let them go. Go do your thing. Like that doesn't work. So if you do have somebody whose kind of role is to oversee that, that development and that leadership development or training or whatever, but they don't have the bandwidth to actually do all of the sessions and all of the planning and all of the prep and the materials, that's a perfect time to. have that person partner with the consultant. So that person's vision is still being implemented, but they can do the things that they have to on a day-to-day basis and just sort of oversee the work. ⁓ With that said, sometimes there's not always that person that has the vision. And so sometimes we do design the vision ourselves and together, and that can work as well. But I'm sure you have stories also about being brought into an organization and just having them say go. And as consultants, we don't have the lens of what is actually happening in this organization and what are the important pieces. And that is absolutely critical for. anything being a success. Katrina Kennedy: Absolutely. you know, and I think that idea that we've, we've both experienced where you go into an organization and they've not given you all the information upfront. They've not had that person to partner with. And so now you're kind of flying blind. You're, you're gathering information from the people in the room in the moment. You're pivoting what you're doing, but still trying to meet the requirements of the contract. Jill Parish: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: That I think is why there's reluctance to bring consultants because you didn't use us well. And I'll be really blunt. When I was early, early in my career, when I had a mortgage and a car payment and income insecurity, I would say yes to things that I would never say yes to today. Jill Parish: yeah yes yes yes yeah Right. Right. Well, Tom Jones told you you had to. So that's why. Yeah. Yeah. It was Tom Jones fault. Yeah. Yeah. We'll blame Tom Jones. We're already getting sued. So yeah. Yeah, exactly. Katrina Kennedy: Right! Right, exactly! Right. Well, just give him some more like basis. and, and so, you know, I think there is, there's sometimes reluctance on some consultants as well as some internal employees to push back, to ask the tough questions, to say, I need this discovery time before we actually start the thing that you want to do so that Jill Parish: Yeah. Great. rate. Katrina Kennedy: So that I'm actually delivering something of value. I think because people don't have the bandwidth, because people don't always have the time, they, those discussions can be really hard to have. And, and I know that sometimes you don't want to hear that training isn't going to solve the issue that sending people away for 90 minutes. Jill Parish: Again. Katrina Kennedy: isn't going to take care of the systemic issue that exists in your organization. ⁓ you know, I, I'm, I'm not a miracle worker. So. Jill Parish: Great. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would disagree with that, but I mean, in this context, I will agree that probably not the case, right? Katrina Kennedy: HAHAHAHA So that willingness to partner and like really partner and have some of those difficult conversations, that's ultimately gonna make a better experience. And I think if I look at the clients that I've had, I have a couple of clients that I've had for over 20 years. We have such a good foundation. I so understand their language, their people. Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: That I still need the tough conversations though, you know, I'm not there every day. ⁓ and, and I think any organizational change requires that, that tough conversation, those, those questions that dig deeper. Jill Parish: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to at the defense of an organization, there is no definition of what is a consultant. There are a million different kinds of consultants. They do a million different things. You have your Deloitte's and your McKinsey's, these huge consulting firms that have like 60 different tiers of consultants, even within the firms. And then you have all the way down to your, you know, one, one person who works for themselves and is a consulting, is a consultant themselves. You right. And then everything in the middle and some of them, you know, will design materials and some of them won't design materials and some of them will come in person and some of them won't come in a person. Some of them build this way and some of them build this way. And I, I can see how there's a lot of fatigue around that because Katrina Kennedy: Right. Jill Parish: you do have to take the time upfront, both from the organization and the consultant's perspective, because there are no two consultants that are the same. And when you're already exhausted and feel like you already have an overwhelming task list, I get it. Sometimes that feels like one more task. all that, it is one more task, right? It totally is. Katrina Kennedy: It is one more task, you know? It is, it is. It's more than a feeling. It's totally more than a feeling. It is one more task. Jill Parish: It's actually a lot of more tasks. Yeah. Yeah. And so I always get that, you know, luckily I don't have a lot of resistance. We have way more resistance when I was in UC Davis. We don't have as much now, but I get it. I get it when folks are resistant to work with the consultants because it really is, it takes time. The good thing is if you spend the time upfront, it absolutely can become such a lifesaver. for the person who wants to get the work done but doesn't have the capacity, but it is an investment upfront. Katrina Kennedy: Absolutely. And I think when you make that investment, you'll see the payoff. You'll have a good experience. And then I think when I think about what really works with a client is that you're not just engaging in that particular one off event or series. You're really establishing a relationship so that Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: we can support each other over time, but then that's where it also, think, gets sticky because as a consultant. You'd also don't want me forever. And I don't want you. Right. Exactly. Like part of my role should be preparing for you not to need me. Jill Parish: Yeah, right. You shouldn't want me forever. Right. Let me teach you how to not need me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Katrina Kennedy: Right, exactly. Which, you know, it's a weird spot, ⁓ but I think it's important that we're enabling people to be successful and honoring the talent that exists in organizations. Jill Parish: Yeah. And, you know, helping them develop their own people as well. And a lot of times what, and you've seen this as well. haven't even had this conversation, but I know you've seen this as well. As a consultant, I can see things that are happening in the organization that need attention, but they're not things that I do. you know, I have the ability to kind of bring those things up and say, yes, should really spend some time on this area as I'm not the person to do it with, but. Katrina Kennedy: Mm-hmm. Jill Parish: spend some time in this area. And I think that is also a benefit of having somebody come in from a third party who is only working in whatever situation they're working with, but we do end up seeing lots of different pieces of the organization and we have a different perspective around what's going on. ⁓ And so that can be another benefit too. It's almost like this little side organization analysis that wasn't even necessarily part of the plan. Katrina Kennedy: Mm-hmm. Right, right, well, and I would assume this happens for you, that sometimes people tell me things, like just flat out. They'll be like, this is going on. And it's like, well, have you told anyone? Like, no, I'm telling you. Well, okay, now I have that. And I have an obligation to do something with it. Jill Parish: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have that same. mean, I never really thought about you and I having that in common, but yeah, people tell us stuff. ⁓ And I think it's, it's a lot of it's we're seeing as, you know, we have the ear, right, of the folks that they want. So we're like, we're like the messenger, but, people tell me things, a lot of things ⁓ without asking. Katrina Kennedy: Yes, we probably could somehow have an entire episode on things we've been told. Jill Parish: Yeah, we could. That could be another episode. Like, ⁓ we're having this conversation right now. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But it is, I'm thinking of this one instance where I was, you know, in with this organization and like could see that there was this process that was a hot mess. And I don't do process improvement. That's not my specialty. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah. All right. All right. Well. Jill Parish: So, but it was great to be able to say, you have this process, it's a real challenge. And the other things that organizations don't necessarily have a window to is I could say, that's not like this at other organizations. Like this is not normal. Like what you're experiencing here is not normal and you should do something about this. And I think when you're just in your organization, you start to normalize everything. And so sometimes it takes somebody coming in and be like, nope, that's not normal. You should not do that. Katrina Kennedy: That's funny because I think I've a lot of the flip side, which is like, yes, you're so normal. Jill Parish: Yeah, that's true. I get that more for sure. I get that more. ⁓ You're right. But there are times where I'm like, you should do something about this. And just so we're clear, nobody else is like this. None of my other clients are like this. Katrina Kennedy: No one at all. No one. No one. One of my very first, well, the two of my very first consulting assignments were strategic planning. And one was an organization, um, that just like this outstanding organization really cared about its people really cared about how they involve staff and decision-making, just like they hit all the boxes and. I did this strategic planning retreat with them and supported by their staff and, you know, like just perfect. And then their competitor reached out to me and it was like night and day. And I said yes to the competitor and I did the strategic planning retreat with them. And it was like, it was, it was a another world and a completely different experience, which Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: It just shows that as, you partner with a consultant, there are good things to do and there are not good things to do. So, so if you could have three wishes for someone working with you, what would they be? Jill Parish: Yeah. Hmm, okay. I mean, the first one would be, really, I want to establish a relationship with the person I'm working with, the people that surround them. ⁓ I want to know, do they have a dog? Do they have kids? What do they like to do with the weekend? I want to know them because I also want to know what parts do they love? I really. Like if I'm working with a client and they tell me like, I just really love, don't know, whatever it is, facilitating Q and A sessions, like let's work together. I don't know. That's the weirdest thing that's popped in my head, but let's work together and let's have you keep that work. Right. And let me do the other stuff. So my first thing is just like, let's build a relationship. ⁓ my second thing is, I guess, how can I put this in a, not a negative, but like, Tell me all the things. ⁓ We sort of alluded to this earlier, like when organizations, they have a tendency to want to put themselves in the best light and I get that. I totally understand that. But then when there's things that are left out, like, we've had six different directors in this position in the last year, that's important information. Like that's information that I want to know. ⁓ And so... Don't feel like you can't tell me that. Like, tell us. Tell us all the bad things and all the good things. Give us the whole picture. The third wish... I don't know. I guess the third wish, and that's probably really plays off the first two is like, give us the time to like really be able to settle in. And I'm the funniest person on the planet to be talking about slowing things down because like, Hey, take your own advice girl. But, ⁓ you know, it's so much better when we have the ability to do the discovery calls and like, give me your org charts and tell me all of the deep dark secrets of how many people have been in that role, and then let's design. It's just a very different, and I don't know, that's hard. I have experienced that to be difficult, and it's probably part of my own personality too, but those are my three wishes. What are your three wishes? Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ My three wishes are not unlike yours. I think number one is transparency. Tell me your stuff. me. And tell me most importantly, for the work that I do, tell me what's driving this. Why did you contact me at this moment? Because. Jill Parish: Mmm, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love- Katrina Kennedy: I mean, you know, it could be that you had a friend who said, and so you think that I can, I can, I can support, which I love that. And I appreciate that. ⁓ but just like, tell me, or, know, is it that somebody's in trouble and now we're going to do this thing for everybody because we don't know what else to do. So just transparency. ⁓ and then for, for, ⁓ this is the, this is a big one. Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: Give your people the time. That is, I can't like even, I can't count the number of times where an organization has made an investment and having me help develop their staff and then they pull their staff away repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly. And I get it, like I get it. Like organizations have to keep going and things have to keep getting done, but. Jill Parish: ⁓ yeah, that is huge. That is huge. That is huge. Mm-hmm. Yes. Katrina Kennedy: you're sending a double message. ⁓ And I think people feel it. I know people feel it. ⁓ Yeah. So transparency time. Now I feel like I'm obligated to have another tea. ⁓ Jill Parish: Yeah. They feel it, yeah. Mm-hmm. Just so you know, we're not judging if you want to pick a different letter. Katrina Kennedy: Okay, no, I've got it. Trust me. Jill Parish: Okay. ⁓ yes. ⁓ yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, trust me. It doesn't have to be blind faith, but trust me. Trust me to have the best intent. Trust me that I am not trying to take all the money from your budget. ⁓ that I am, like I know if, for what, if you contact me to help support your learning and development function, you can trust that I know what I'm doing. Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, that's a huge one. ⁓ And along with that, you know, trust that perhaps whatever solution you came with isn't actually the best solution to move forward with. you know, because that happens all the time. It's like, I want you to do this to solve this problem. And then it's like, well, I could do that to solve that problem. It's not going to solve that problem. Or we could have a conversation about this problem and the best solution. So yes, the trust is huge. It's huge. Katrina Kennedy: I like to always refer to, you know, if my leg hurts and I go to the doctor, I would never say to the doctor, just cut it off. We would have some discovery first. Maybe we should test a few things. Maybe touch it. Let's see. Watch me walk. Then, then if we need to amputate, we'll amputate. Jill Parish: Yeah. it Hehehehehe You know what's funny about that is, you know, my husband's a dentist and he actually does have people come in and say, just take it out and then take the tooth out and he'll be like, I mean, we could look at the rough. That actually does happen in a dental office. So let's not try to be like dental offices. How's that? I think legs work. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: Alright, well maybe I need to change my analogy. We'll move away from the leg. People remember the leg, right? Jill Parish: Yeah, they remember the leg. Yeah, yeah, and you know, they've seen teeth I guess is whatever you have so many of them. So shake one out. There's so many replacements Katrina Kennedy: I don't know, they come back again? I don't know. I've seen the billboard like same day in plant. $1,000. So I guess it's easy. Jill Parish: Easy, there's somebody you can fill your mouth with them. I don't know how we got a dental, but yeah, I think our, maybe we should rename this podcast. How did we get here? That's, that's season two. Katrina Kennedy: Sometimes I never know how we get where we get. Jill Parish: ⁓ boy, it's 30 minutes in and you know it's 30 minutes in because we're pretty much off the rails at this point. I think that's the best. Yeah, absolutely. Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ Exactly, exactly. But I think we've covered some good ground and I think, you know, I think we've acknowledged that there are things we like ⁓ and there are definitely ways to work with us and any consultant and any consultant. Absolutely. Jill Parish: Yes. Yeah. And we recognize as consultants, sometimes we make it harder on the organization. So we just want to apologize for our whole industry as two humans who understand that we are part of the problem. we, Katrina and Jill, try to be not part of the problem, but we get it. We get where it comes Katrina Kennedy: Well, and I think we're trying to be part of the solution as well. Part of the solution. That is the goal. No, not at all. Not at all. And nobody wants to commit to a problem for a long time. Jill Parish: Yeah, absolutely. That's the goal. Nobody wants to hire a problem. Yeah. You know, actually, there are people I would say who do want to do that. But again, we're off the rails here at this point. Katrina Kennedy: Exactly. So that might be a good time to wrap up this episode partnering with a consultant. Thank you as always for joining me, Jill, and thank you to everyone listening. Jill Parish: Yay! Thank you. Bye.