Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 275 - Perfectionism and Negligence—How to Avoid Those Two Extremes

Transcript

Ep. 275 - Perfectionism and Negligence—How to Avoid Those Two Extremes · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Oscar Navarro: But today a young woman goes on social media and they see the air quote perfected self.
• 1:09
  Oscar Navarro: They see the perfect image with the perfect angle, the perfect filter.
• 1:13
  Oscar Navarro: That's sometimes airbrushed and sometimes not even real and they compare themselves to a perception of perfection.
• 1:23
  Oscar Navarro: They look themselves in the mirror and they see man, I've got these freckles, my eyes are this, my face is that.
• 1:29
  Oscar Navarro: And ultimately, here's the worst part when we get sucked into that kind of version of perfectionism, is that we miss out on the reality that God is the one that made you, he gave you those freckles, he gave you your beauty.
• 1:45
  Oscar Navarro: And that's the saddest part is that when we compare ourselves in that kind of a way, ultimately we're questioning God's workmanship, that he made us to be something he desires us to be, and we're comparing that to a facade, a fake image of perfectionism.
• 2:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Shucks, my fingers hurt.
• 2:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Okay, first of all, I do want to ask this Shucks Oscar, look it up, or Mark, look it up?
• 2:23
  Emeal Zwayne: What does shucks mean?
• 2:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Is that the proper context for?
• 2:26
  Ray Comfort: such a thing.
• 2:27
  Ray Comfort: Think it's probably short for a foul letter.
• 2:29
  Mark Spence: Yeah word like the euphism for something that probably you wouldn't mean.
• 2:32
  Emeal Zwayne: No yeah, southerners say it all the time oh sure, well, they shouldn't.
• 2:36
  Ray Comfort: Oh, shucks, we're gonna change it.
• 2:38
  Ray Comfort: Oh, thinking of going.
• 2:39
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, no, you don't want to say that word.
• 2:40
  Ray Comfort: No, I wouldn't want to stop yeah, um yeah, shucks.
• 2:45
  Emeal Zwayne: so I don't know if that's even the right context for shucks, but I hear it said all the time.
• 2:49
  Emeal Zwayne: But guys, my fingers hurt why buddy.
• 2:52
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, you know, you do something like you get a little thingy, one of those like loose nail things.
• 2:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, that's perfectionism.
• 2:57
  Ray Comfort: You just keep picking at it because you don't like it.
• 2:59
  Ray Comfort: No, but what I eventually do?
• 3:01
  Emeal Zwayne: is.
• 3:01
  Emeal Zwayne: I bite it and pull it out with my teeth, and then it just hurts for like days.
• 3:06
  Ray Comfort: Do you know what that's called Shucks?
• 3:08
  Ray Comfort: No Stupidity.
• 3:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Ignorance and stupidity.
• 3:12
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't bite it and pull it.
• 3:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and I do need to stop, but I can't help it.
• 3:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Why?
• 3:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Because I'm a perfectionist, ray, I need perfect nails.
• 3:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, we'll be talking about that Speaking of uncontrollable idiocies.
• 3:25
  Ray Comfort: Do you ever get something in your tooth and you're saying I don't want to play with my tongue anymore, just leave it alone.
• 3:31
  Emeal Zwayne: It keeps going back you know the worst for me with stuff in my teeth Mango.
• 3:36
  Ray Comfort: Really you don't like mango.
• 3:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Mango what?
• 3:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Or you just don't like the stringy mango stuff.
• 3:40
  Emeal Zwayne: I love mango, but it gets stuck in my teeth and I find myself just picking at it.
• 3:45
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, I see you take them out and just pick at them.
• 3:48
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark, you're a fastidious brusher, Thank you.
• 3:51
  Emeal Zwayne: And flosser Like after every meal kind of thing.
• 3:56
  Mark Spence: No, I mean, I floss a couple times a day, but hygiene is important.
• 4:01
  Oscar Navarro: I floss after every meal.
• 4:02
  Mark Spence: Yeah, I floss too.
• 4:04
  Mark Spence: I definitely floss after every meal.
• 4:05
  Oscar Navarro: Stop you do Oscar, absolutely.
• 4:07
  Oscar Navarro: I can't stand having stuff stuck in my teeth.
• 4:09
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, where do you floss?
• 4:10
  Emeal Zwayne: In his teeth, in my teeth Are there other options?
• 4:15
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, I didn't know there was other options.
• 4:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Have I been doing it wrong?
• 4:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Floss your ears, Oscar.
• 4:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, I see that.
• 4:19
  Emeal Zwayne: You see what they do.
• 4:20
  Ray Comfort: Oh, yeah, mental floss, mental floss thing, and your rope goes each yeah I think it's somewhere going through your ears mental floss.
• 4:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah yeah.
• 4:29
  Emeal Zwayne: It's crazy, man.
• 4:30
  Emeal Zwayne: Seriously, have you guys ever like had a dentist that had bad teeth?
• 4:35
  Emeal Zwayne: I've seen dentists with bad teeth.
• 4:38
  Ray Comfort: I'm like what are you doing?
• 4:39
  Ray Comfort: Why on earth would you go to a dentist with bad teeth?
• 4:41
  Ray Comfort: It's like a mechanic that's got a destroyed car?
• 4:45
  Emeal Zwayne: no, you have that.
• 4:46
  Emeal Zwayne: I remember that back in the day around my house there was this sign shop that made signs and they had the most dilapidated, like ugliest signs.
• 4:55
  Ray Comfort: It's like going to a brain surgeon that destroys things all the time.
• 4:58
  Ray Comfort: I'd like to be a brain surgeon.
• 4:59
  Ray Comfort: Or who has no?
• 5:00
  Oscar Navarro: brain.
• 5:00
  Oscar Navarro: What's that phrase?
• 5:02
  Oscar Navarro: The cog maker has no shoes or something like that.
• 5:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh yeah, yeah, Ray, why?
• 5:09
  Ray Comfort: You has no shoes or something like that.
• 5:10
  Ray Comfort: Oh yeah, yeah, Ray, why Are you going to finish the?
• 5:11
  Emeal Zwayne: sentence.
• 5:11
  Emeal Zwayne: I can't remember what I was going to ask you.
• 5:13
  Oscar Navarro: That's not perfectionism I had something very important to ask you.
• 5:16
  Ray Comfort: So this is on perfectionism.
• 5:17
  Ray Comfort: Today, and you're a perfectionist, I can't even remember now.
• 5:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, my brain's gone.
• 5:21
  Emeal Zwayne: Ingrown toenails yeah, I think that's what Yummy.
• 5:30
  Ray Comfort: Sorry if you guys ever had an ingrown toenail please remove your kids from the program.
• 5:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Have you, oscar?
• 5:32
  Emeal Zwayne: You're nodding your head.
• 5:33
  Oscar Navarro: They're horrible.
• 5:34
  Oscar Navarro: I had to get it removed surgically.
• 5:39
  Oscar Navarro: They pulled my entire toenail off don't?
• 5:42
  Ray Comfort: you just show us, keep them trim.
• 5:44
  Ray Comfort: They don't ingrow if you trim them, they just grow too long.
• 5:48
  Oscar Navarro: I broke the bed of my toe playing soccer and so it grew like a A-frame house type thing.
• 5:56
  Oscar Navarro: It's sort of growing sideways and so, yeah, they had to remove it and reshape the bed.
• 6:00
  Oscar Navarro: I don't know if they reshaped it.
• 6:01
  Oscar Navarro: It grows out fine now, but this is really personal information.
• 6:06
  Ray Comfort: It's called bed.
• 6:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Is that what it's called bed?
• 6:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Is that what it's called?
• 6:14
  Ray Comfort: the flat part of your tongue.
• 6:15
  Ray Comfort: Underneath your toenails, the is the bed of your toe toenail ray.
• 6:16
  Ray Comfort: How do you, how do you feel about ken ham's toes?
• 6:17
  Ray Comfort: Right?
• 6:18
  Ray Comfort: Don't even talk about it.
• 6:18
  Ray Comfort: No, don't even talk about it, it's just terrible.
• 6:19
  Ray Comfort: Change the subject yeah, ken's ham's toes.
• 6:22
  Ray Comfort: They are despicable.
• 6:26
  Ray Comfort: Just leave it at that about.
• 6:28
  Emeal Zwayne: So, anyway, crazy things ingrown toenails, ingrown hairs.
• 6:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Why are we talking about this?
• 6:34
  Oscar Navarro: I have no idea.
• 6:34
  Oscar Navarro: It's fun.
• 6:35
  Oscar Navarro: I'm trying to think how you're going to connect all of this.
• 6:37
  Oscar Navarro: This is not fun.
• 6:38
  Emeal Zwayne: There is no connection today.
• 6:41
  Ray Comfort: All right friends.
• 6:42
  Emeal Zwayne: We started with shucks.
• 6:43
  Emeal Zwayne: Let's move on from that Cool, classy comment.
• 6:47
  Emeal Zwayne: This is, by the way, from podcastatlivingwaterscom.
• 6:51
  Mark Spence: Wait a minute.
• 6:52
  Emeal Zwayne: That's us.
• 6:53
  Mark Spence: You said that very well, did you like that?
• 6:57
  Mark Spence: It was clear, it was articulate.
• 6:59
  Emeal Zwayne: People followed it.
• 6:59
  Emeal Zwayne: See, I should talk about ingrown toenails more.
• 7:02
  Emeal Zwayne: It'll normalize me.
• 7:05
  Emeal Zwayne: I stumbled on this podcast by Spotify's suggestion and was hooked.
• 7:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Isn't that cool.
• 7:11
  Emeal Zwayne: They give suggestions.
• 7:12
  Emeal Zwayne: Man algorithms do have a place After I got used to Easy's voice how did you?
• 7:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Do that.
• 7:19
  Emeal Zwayne: I started liking it even more Now.
• 7:22
  Emeal Zwayne: I think the podcast would lose a lot without his voice.
• 7:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, thank you.
• 7:26
  Ray Comfort: It would lose everything.
• 7:26
  Ray Comfort: Seriously, it takes time, easy, you are the podcast.
• 7:30
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I love the wisdom and discussion that you guys bring.
• 7:33
  Emeal Zwayne: I appreciate how you all have differing opinions on some areas but still forever get along most of the time.
• 7:40
  Ray Comfort: Most of the time.
• 7:42
  Emeal Zwayne: I like Ray's humility and how he doesn't get offended when made fun of by the others.
• 7:48
  Emeal Zwayne: You're so humble, ray.
• 7:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Easy's voice and laughter always make me join in or cringe.
• 7:53
  Emeal Zwayne: I love Mark's dad jokes and Oscar's enthusiasm.
• 7:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Most of all, though, I love the way you guys stand on God's word.
• 8:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Keep doing that.
• 8:02
  Emeal Zwayne: The Lord, jesus Christ, be with your spirits.
• 8:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Amen.
• 8:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Shane Snader from Saldontna, alaska.
• 8:12
  Ray Comfort: Alaska.
• 8:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Remember Alaska right.
• 8:14
  Ray Comfort: Remember Alaska right yeah they've got nice pets up there, yeah, here.
• 8:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Moosey, Moosey, Moosey.
• 8:20
  Oscar Navarro: Is that where that happened at?
• 8:21
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:22
  Emeal Zwayne: We walked out of a restaurant and there was a moose in the parking lot.
• 8:26
  Emeal Zwayne: You exaggerate.
• 8:28
  Ray Comfort: It was at least 20 feet away more like three ray.
• 8:33
  Emeal Zwayne: You're crazy.
• 8:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Why would you go up to a moose?
• 8:36
  Ray Comfort: it looked nice.
• 8:37
  Ray Comfort: They have moose for here.
• 8:40
  Ray Comfort: Hello, aren't they violent?
• 8:42
  Ray Comfort: Oh the one they will kill you yeah, if they think it's worth it, yeah, yeah.
• 8:47
  Emeal Zwayne: I'd ignore Dre.
• 8:49
  Ray Comfort: He's not worth killing.
• 8:52
  Emeal Zwayne: He looks dead already.
• 8:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Alright, friends, anyway, thank you, shane.
• 8:58
  Emeal Zwayne: It means so much to us.
• 8:59
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks for listening, brother.
• 9:00
  Emeal Zwayne: Tell others about the podcast, please.
• 9:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, shane.
• 9:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't tell them what to do For another radically revolutionary resource.
• 9:09
  Emeal Zwayne: This podcast is brought to you by how to Bring your Children to Christ and Keep them there, avoiding the Tragedy of False Conversion Ray.
• 9:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Your kids came to Christ and they're still there.
• 9:21
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, and they work for a ministry or two of them do, two-thirds do, and we almost got the other third.
• 9:26
  Ray Comfort: She wants to look after the last kid at home and make sure she's.
• 9:30
  Emeal Zwayne: Got to bring Rachel over here?
• 9:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, wouldn't it be good Minister to those ladies.
• 9:34
  Mark Spence: On that note.
• 9:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget, ladies, joyful mothers.
• 9:37
  Emeal Zwayne: That's Rachel's page.
• 9:38
  Emeal Zwayne: I think it'll really bless you.
• 9:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, so it's a good book, ray.
• 9:42
  Emeal Zwayne: When did you write that book?
• 9:44
  Emeal Zwayne: When did you write that book?
• 9:46
  Emeal Zwayne: It's been a while.
• 9:46
  Emeal Zwayne: You're asking, ray, I know as soon as it left my lips.
• 9:52
  Oscar Navarro: I was just thinking I'm going to take one of his books, like a manuscript of one of his books, and write my name on it and hand it to him and say what do?
• 9:55
  Ray Comfort: you think, and he's going to come back like that's the best.
• 9:57
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, he would.
• 9:58
  Ray Comfort: Guys, Mark is looking at people being attacked by mooses.
• 10:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Moose-eye, moose-eye.
• 10:06
  Ray Comfort: Meese, meese.
• 10:06
  Ray Comfort: It's being attacked by meese.
• 10:08
  Ray Comfort: There's a lot of meese attacking people Meese.
• 10:11
  Emeal Zwayne: There it is again.
• 10:11
  Emeal Zwayne: The idiocy of the English language sometimes right that things aren't consistent.
• 10:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, anyway, good ones, mark there.
• 10:19
  Mark Spence: Yeah, we saw a lot of mooses.
• 10:20
  Mark Spence: He was touching the tail of the moose and the moose said I didn't that, you will be my meal.
• 10:25
  Mark Spence: They are huge they are seriously big man.
• 10:29
  Emeal Zwayne: It's like eye level with a person like a tall man.
• 10:32
  Oscar Navarro: Unless you're Ray Not with Ray.
• 10:34
  Oscar Navarro: Unless you're Ray.
• 10:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Over Ray, all right friends, yeah.
• 10:38
  Emeal Zwayne: So don't forget that book and don't forget to chug from the Living Waters mug and don't forget to have a study Bible where it will bring revival, all at livingwaterscom.
• 10:50
  Ray Comfort: You sound like one of those chanting monks, then Chanting monks.
• 10:55
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh boy, all right friends, today we are talking about perfectionism and negligence, how to avoid the two extremes.
• 11:06
  Emeal Zwayne: You just witnessed perfectionism in my opening and, yeah, maybe some of you will now neglect the podcast.
• 11:16
  Emeal Zwayne: But we joke about perfectionism.
• 11:19
  Emeal Zwayne: You guys know I am a perfectionist.
• 11:21
  Emeal Zwayne: I say that to my utter shame because it is a plague sometimes.
• 11:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Not that there aren't any benefits of it, but sometimes I wish I could get rid of it.
• 11:33
  Ray Comfort: Just look in the mirror.
• 11:37
  Emeal Zwayne: With you in it, ray.
• 11:38
  Emeal Zwayne: That's what I'll look, but no, you know, there have been throughout my life definite challenges because of it, and I think I've grown in some sense.
• 11:48
  Ray Comfort: So when did it?
• 11:49
  Emeal Zwayne: all start.
• 11:49
  Emeal Zwayne: It all started when I was born.
• 11:52
  Emeal Zwayne: And I said this room's a mess.
• 11:56
  Mark Spence: So did you always have a clean room, Corona?
• 11:59
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, can you tell the story of you doing biblical counseling in the carpet?
• 12:05
  Emeal Zwayne: When I found myself on my knee brushing the tassels.
• 12:07
  Oscar Navarro: That's like my favorite example of the way you are a professional.
• 12:10
  Emeal Zwayne: You know to this day.
• 12:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Honestly, I still think back on that and I'm like are they married still?
• 12:16
  Mark Spence: that was the end of it that day.
• 12:18
  Emeal Zwayne: uh, but seriously, it was like I've mentioned before, like you're coming to right, you're in a coma and then you wake up and you're like where am I?
• 12:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Who am I?
• 12:26
  Emeal Zwayne: What's going?
• 12:26
  Emeal Zwayne: You gotta tell the story.
• 12:27
  Emeal Zwayne: And I was literally I'm counseling this couple.
• 12:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Next thing I know, in the middle of my counseling I'm down on one knee brushing the tassels with my fingers of the rug.
• 12:38
  Emeal Zwayne: So they're all faced the same way.
• 12:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, because someone had decorated my office, they put this rug with tassels.
• 12:44
  Emeal Zwayne: They should have known better to do that and I should have gotten rid of it the first day.
• 12:49
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't know what I was thinking, but I'm brushing this thing and it's like.
• 12:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Then there was this.
• 12:52
  Emeal Zwayne: I hear this quiet like, pause, like, and I look up.
• 12:55
  Oscar Navarro: I'm like as they're pouring their heart out to you.
• 12:58
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm so sorry, I can't believe that, but that's my life, right Like?
• 13:04
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, you guys know that you come into my office, you move things around?
• 13:06
  Ray Comfort: Is that when you comb that guy's mustache straight after that?
• 13:09
  Emeal Zwayne: Straighten his nasal hair.
• 13:11
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, for those who don't know, I learned this from Mark.
• 13:13
  Oscar Navarro: Mark likes to go into Easy's office and just subtly move his decor, just like a half an inch.
• 13:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, if I wasn't in the office and I know there was a tour, because I'll come back and everything will be moved, because Ray goes in and does the same thing.
• 13:27
  Ray Comfort: I can't help it my friend Bill.
• 13:28
  Emeal Zwayne: No, I'm sorry, it's an obsession I've got.
• 13:31
  Ray Comfort: I just can't help it.
• 13:31
  Ray Comfort: I just got to move things.
• 13:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, that's your obsession.
• 13:34
  Emeal Zwayne: But yeah, my friend Bill Daniels, when I was a kid same thing teenagers He'd come into my room, he'd move something.
• 13:39
  Emeal Zwayne: I'd come in and I just start straightening.
• 13:46
  Emeal Zwayne: We know you don't think Everywhere I go.
• 13:48
  Ray Comfort: I realized what a mistake I had made, letting you marry my daughter when we went to Israel for the first time and the first night we were there I turned over to get a sleep in the dark and I heard swish, swish, swish, swish, swish.
• 13:58
  Ray Comfort: Easy changed the sheets in the hotel.
• 14:01
  Ray Comfort: He brought his own sheets to Israel because he didn't trust their sheets.
• 14:06
  Emeal Zwayne: I tried to bring my own bed, but they wouldn't let it on the plane.
• 14:11
  Mark Spence: I remember going to Easy's house and he has towels over the stove and they were like perfectly lined up and he was going around cleaning things up and I was going around moving the towel, offsetting them and Easy continually would go back to that same towel and fix it.
• 14:26
  Emeal Zwayne: I did it several times without realizing that it was happening.
• 14:27
  Mark Spence: it I didn't think several times without realizing that it was happening because I don't think about it.
• 14:31
  Emeal Zwayne: I got it from my mom.
• 14:33
  Emeal Zwayne: My mom was just a hyper perfectionist and uh yeah she had you I know right, that's where she.
• 14:39
  Oscar Navarro: Do you have like strict routines?
• 14:41
  Oscar Navarro: Do you have like a morning routine?
• 14:43
  Oscar Navarro: That's like the same every time you can't like skip a beat yeah, I have all kinds of routines in my life Should you?
• 14:49
  Oscar Navarro: Maybe start flossing as one of them.
• 14:51
  Oscar Navarro: Add that to the list.
• 14:53
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, we've all noticed the fur in between.
• 15:00
  Emeal Zwayne: Stop that, ray, we won't talk about that.
• 15:02
  Emeal Zwayne: But you know I joke.
• 15:05
  Emeal Zwayne: But I don't think it's a condition, I don't think it's like some kind of whatever.
• 15:15
  Ray Comfort: But there are people that do have stuff like that.
• 15:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Have you ever been on Oprah?
• 15:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I'm sure she'll have me on, but there are people that have conditions like that.
• 15:22
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, I'm talking like people that are washing their hands, like you know 10,000 times a day before breakfast Doing things and you know.
• 15:29
  Emeal Zwayne: But the thing is, guys, is that obviously, guys, guys, guys, y'all that the opposite extreme of this is negligence.
• 15:37
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, and we're talking about this.
• 15:39
  Emeal Zwayne: You know I talked about some of my stuff, but perfectionism can go into so many, you know, different areas of life.
• 15:44
  Emeal Zwayne: It can go into our marriage, it can go into our parenting, our work, our appearance, spiritual disciplines.
• 15:53
  Emeal Zwayne: One of the things that was difficult for me when I was a newer believer is I could not have my devotional time unless my entire surroundings were perfect.
• 16:01
  Emeal Zwayne: So I would just perfect everything, then I would sit down, and that's just not right.
• 16:07
  Emeal Zwayne: And yet you have that kind of perfectionism that I think can be a big hindrance to people, but then you have, on the other side of that, negligence.
• 16:15
  Ray Comfort: You're talking about me?
• 16:16
  Ray Comfort: Yes, I don't care.
• 16:18
  Ray Comfort: Two opposites.
• 16:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I don't care.
• 16:21
  Emeal Zwayne: Two opposites, and that is beautiful, though, how the Lord harmonizes people, because we are opposite in certain things.
• 16:28
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, ray, you are kind of perfectionistic with tidiness, you love things clean and tidy, but you've taught me that there are certain things that, in the sense of negligence, may be important to neglect for more important things, you know.
• 16:40
  Emeal Zwayne: So we want to talk about all that today and just talk about how perfectionism can be harmful as an extreme and how negligence can be harmful in the wrong context.
• 16:50
  Ray Comfort: I did some research to get some good quotes on perfectionism, but there was nothing good enough.
• 16:55
  Emeal Zwayne: You quit, yeah.
• 16:57
  Emeal Zwayne: So yeah, it's.
• 17:00
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, mark.
• 17:00
  Emeal Zwayne: I think it's important to remember that.
• 17:03
  Emeal Zwayne: And then we've seen it even in the spiritual and it'd be good to talk about that those that drift into the era of sinless perfection we have an episode on that, yeah and how dangerous that can be as well.
• 17:14
  Emeal Zwayne: What planet?
• 17:15
  Ray Comfort: are they from to believe in sinless perfection?
• 17:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 17:18
  Emeal Zwayne: That has to be one of the most destructive doctrines and I think, one of the most detrimental to a Christian's walk.
• 17:26
  Emeal Zwayne: But yeah, I mean, why do you think people get to that?
• 17:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Could it be, mark?
• 17:30
  Emeal Zwayne: You think a personality thing, that they are a perfectionist and now they want to apply that to.
• 17:35
  Mark Spence: Well, I actually heard a theologian talk about that one time.
• 17:37
  Mark Spence: He said for some people somebody becomes a sinless perfectionist based off of a desire to want to walk with God, wanting, perhaps craving, holiness and to do that which is right, and they so beat themselves up over the fact that they've sinned right.
• 17:56
  Mark Spence: He who the Son has set free is free indeed.
• 17:58
  Mark Spence: And then they start over-spiritualizing certain texts and then they start misapplying those texts to themselves.
• 18:04
  Mark Spence: And Ray's often said to somebody who considers to be a sinless perfectionist let me just talk to your wife.
• 18:11
  Mark Spence: Right, see, if you have sinned right, if you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you.
• 18:19
  Mark Spence: You cannot continue in a habitual lifestyle of sin and still be a Christian, but that doesn't mean you're not gonna continue a wrestle with sin to the day we die.
• 18:31
  Mark Spence: We haven't arrived, we haven't attained, oscar, do you?
• 18:33
  Emeal Zwayne: think that a part of people getting into sinless perfectionism and again, the whole episode isn't about that and we have dealt with it before but do you think, like we've said before, that it could be a byproduct of people not realizing the real nature of sin, like they're just looking at it as oh, it's this big thing and that big thing.
• 18:51
  Emeal Zwayne: They're not thinking about the motives of their heart and their intent, all those things that go on inside and every type of thing like that.
• 18:57
  Oscar Navarro: I think you just hit on the head and the motives of our heart, because since Adam and Eve I mean you think about the fall before God shows up what does Adam and Eve do?
• 19:06
  Oscar Navarro: They clothe themselves, they try to justify themselves.
• 19:10
  Oscar Navarro: I think sinless perfectionism is another form of trying to justify ourselves.
• 19:17
  Oscar Navarro: We have a starting point of grace, but then we say I can get to a place where I am no longer in need of grace, because that's what sinless perfectionism is, is that I am no longer in need of grace, and so that's just another form of us trying to play God and control our salvation.
• 19:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, Ray, you've always struggled with certain elements of those that are perfectionistic, because you see it as a hindrance to greater things.
• 19:43
  Emeal Zwayne: But it has its place where we want to pursue excellence.
• 19:48
  Emeal Zwayne: But where do you think it can become a stumbling block?
• 19:51
  Ray Comfort: Oh, I think, boy, we should always pursue excellence, but we're never going to get it.
• 19:56
  Ray Comfort: It depends on your definition of excellence.
• 19:58
  Ray Comfort: We'll never get perfectionism.
• 20:01
  Ray Comfort: If I could attain perfectionism in my thought that I could really have a holy thought life, I wouldn't need God's grace, I wouldn't need to come to the cross like I do daily.
• 20:10
  Ray Comfort: If I could attain to having my own wisdom, I wouldn't need to pray for the wisdom of God.
• 20:16
  Ray Comfort: So those weaknesses that dwell in my flesh, that plague me daily, my safety guard, keep me at the foot of the cross.
• 20:22
  Ray Comfort: But I am not a perfectionist.
• 20:25
  Ray Comfort: I strive for excellence.
• 20:26
  Ray Comfort: Never get it.
• 20:27
  Ray Comfort: But my life is filled with failure, absolutely Books that have failed, tracks that haven't worked out.
• 20:34
  Ray Comfort: I created a T-shirt with written on it if you knew, you would ask.
• 20:39
  Ray Comfort: And I've been mocked for about 30 years since that.
• 20:44
  Ray Comfort: For 30 more for sure, yeah, for sure, if God gives me another 30.
• 20:48
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, it was based on John 4, where Jesus said to the woman well, if you knew, you would ask and he'd give you a living water.
• 20:55
  Ray Comfort: So I thought this could provoke people to say what does that mean?
• 20:57
  Ray Comfort: And so I had one made.
• 20:59
  Ray Comfort: If you knew, you'd ask.
• 21:00
  Ray Comfort: And I got so laughed at by my family.
• 21:02
  Ray Comfort: I've never worn it again.
• 21:03
  Ray Comfort: But yes, it's a trail.
• 21:06
  Ray Comfort: It's a graveyard of failures, but every now and then there's a success.
• 21:10
  Ray Comfort: There's a wallet tracked, or a million dollar bill tracked, or a book that takes off, or a video that works.
• 21:15
  Ray Comfort: And it comes in the midst of failure.
• 21:17
  Ray Comfort: Someone once said Aim at the moon, and if you clear the trees, you're doing fine.
• 21:24
  Mark Spence: And.
• 21:24
  Ray Comfort: I just love that.
• 21:25
  Ray Comfort: Just aim at the moon.
• 21:26
  Ray Comfort: I'm going to jump to the moon today and, ooh, I just cleared the trees.
• 21:29
  Ray Comfort: Wow, perfectionist says you've got to land on the moon or you're a failure.
• 21:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, what about your LA Air Can?
• 21:36
  Ray Comfort: Ray LA Air Can yeah, that was a failure.
• 21:37
  Ray Comfort: I was waiting for.
• 21:39
  Ray Comfort: I bought it, you did yeah it, you did yeah.
• 21:40
  Emeal Zwayne: You did Wait, wait, wait.
• 21:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Were you actually selling these through the ministry?
• 21:44
  Ray Comfort: Yes, yeah, this is like in 1980, no 1991.
• 21:48
  Emeal Zwayne: We used to have it on the shelf somewhere, didn't we?
• 21:55
  Ray Comfort: I think it's still there.
• 21:55
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, while I was waiting for God to open doors, I knew I should be in the States to bring Hell's Best Keep Secret to the church and I thought what am I going to do?
• 21:59
  Ray Comfort: When's it going to get open the the doors?
• 22:01
  Ray Comfort: I felt like a jehovah's witness because no one knew who I was, couldn't get ministry.
• 22:05
  Ray Comfort: So I started doing these crazy things like that can of la air.
• 22:08
  Ray Comfort: That was just pollution on the inside, or the block it was a block of wood you run around the block.
• 22:14
  Ray Comfort: It just had the block written on it and it just was like the, the.
• 22:19
  Ray Comfort: What is the rock?
• 22:21
  Ray Comfort: What was that thing?
• 22:22
  Ray Comfort: The?
• 22:23
  Mark Spence: pet rock.
• 22:23
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, it was, it was that whole thing.
• 22:25
  Ray Comfort: They sold so much of those yeah and so the block would have been a great thing.
• 22:27
  Ray Comfort: It could have taken off.
• 22:28
  Ray Comfort: You give it to your boss it's just a block of wood and it's in a nice container and you open it up and it says the block.
• 22:33
  Ray Comfort: And every day you run around the block and feel good about yourself.
• 22:49
  Oscar Navarro: And it's like doors open for us.
• 22:50
  Oscar Navarro: You know, this is something that I really appreciate you, ray.
• 22:51
  Oscar Navarro: It's that you are not afraid to fail and that is a such a powerful disposition to have as a person.
• 22:54
  Oscar Navarro: I actually read this book recently called Right Kind of Wrong, and I I read this book because I heard this podcast with the author on it and I thought it was so compelling that I bought the book.
• 23:02
  Oscar Navarro: I finished the book and I was like, yeah, the podcast was enough, it was kind of so I don't recommend the book.
• 23:07
  Oscar Navarro: But one of the things, one of the stories that comes out of the book, is the author talks about open heart surgery and they go through the story of it and basically the first doctor that performed open heart surgery, the tool that they use, this machine, was the size of a living room and the first person they did hope open heart surgery on was a 12 year old little boy, whoa, and the little boy passed away and then two weeks later they had an opportunity to do it again.
• 23:33
  Oscar Navarro: I think it was like a 15 year old girl in that little girl passed away.
• 23:36
  Oscar Navarro: Seven different people passed away for different reasons while this guy was trying to perform the first open heart surgery, for different reasons, while this guy was trying to perform the first open heart surgery, but he was so convinced that he can get it right to save lives that he pressed on not being afraid of failure, didn't look at those deaths as like not a big deal.
• 23:56
  Oscar Navarro: He mourned them, he lamented them, it broke him up over it, but he was so convinced that he was on the precipice of something that could save lives.
• 24:05
  Oscar Navarro: And now today, open heart surgery is an outpatient thing.
• 24:10
  Oscar Navarro: Thousands of people every single year, lives are saved.
• 24:14
  Oscar Navarro: Because he pressed on, beyond his failures, to have success.
• 24:18
  Oscar Navarro: And as I was reading the book, it reminded me of you, because, truly, you are not afraid to fail, because people who are generally successful are masters at failing.
• 24:28
  Oscar Navarro: We've all heard like if you bat 300, you're a hall of famer.
• 24:33
  Oscar Navarro: That means you're failing 60% of the time, and so, yeah, the point is to not be afraid to fail, to not allow that to hold you back, and I've really appreciated watching you play that out in your life.
• 24:45
  Ray Comfort: I'm really good at failing.
• 24:46
  Ray Comfort: I used to have kids clubs called the Good Time Clubs, three clubs that I ran and they had 100 kids in each club.
• 24:54
  Ray Comfort: I'd go to a local school and give out candy and say come to the club on Tuesday.
• 24:57
  Ray Comfort: It's at 4 o'clock and we've got more candy for you.
• 24:59
  Ray Comfort: And blah blah.
• 25:00
  Ray Comfort: And I had a ventriloquist doll that I couldn't speak through.
• 25:02
  Ray Comfort: It was just crazy.
• 25:03
  Emeal Zwayne: I didn't have any talent for that we just discovered Charlie's still around.
• 25:08
  Ray Comfort: Yes, he's still around.
• 25:08
  Ray Comfort: My brother's got him in Australia.
• 25:10
  Ray Comfort: But one thing I remember and that's what brought it up is I thought, man, I've got no music for these kids.
• 25:15
  Ray Comfort: I wish I could play a guitar or something.
• 25:17
  Ray Comfort: I'm not kidding.
• 25:18
  Ray Comfort: My brother-in-law came over to me as a Christian.
• 25:20
  Ray Comfort: He says God's told me to give you my guitar for some reason.
• 25:23
  Ray Comfort: And so I learned the guitar and I learned it.
• 25:25
  Ray Comfort: How can I put this?
• 25:27
  Ray Comfort: Not playing, just not playing by ear, but playing by memory.
• 25:31
  Ray Comfort: I don't know if you've ever heard anyone doing that.
• 25:33
  Ray Comfort: You know this is the day.
• 25:34
  Ray Comfort: That song that's G A and C, G A and C, just by memory, nothing to do with my ear.
• 25:39
  Ray Comfort: And the kids loved it.
• 25:40
  Ray Comfort: They didn't have a clue.
• 25:41
  Ray Comfort: It wasn't singing very nice.
• 25:42
  Ray Comfort: I got the kids to sing louder than me.
• 25:45
  Ray Comfort: That's what happened.
• 25:46
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, that's a smart idea.
• 25:48
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, you know.
• 25:49
  Emeal Zwayne: I think it would be safe to say that perfectionism can have at its core a form of selfishness, because oftentimes a perfectionist can drift into demanding of others certain things that are unreasonable because of what they want or what they like.
• 26:08
  Emeal Zwayne: One of the areas I've always tried to intentionally guard myself with in perfectionism has been with my children, because I realized early on, if I allow this to really manifest in terms of, sometimes, what I feel and what I want, this can really destroy my children, because you end up giving them the sense like nothing is ever good enough and that's kind of it's become proverbial.
• 26:33
  Emeal Zwayne: You see it repeated in movies and cheesy sitcoms and stuff like that oh, I'm never good enough for you.
• 26:39
  Emeal Zwayne: But there is that real element of it, though, where you can create that in your child and it can be radically different.
• 26:48
  Mark Spence: So how do you find there's a couple of questions here right?
• 26:51
  Mark Spence: How do you find the balance, because you want them to excel?
• 26:54
  Mark Spence: And how do you guard yourself?
• 26:56
  Mark Spence: By not doing that, not demanding that perfectionism, because oftentimes, like you said, you just find yourself doing it, not realizing that you're doing it.
• 27:05
  Mark Spence: So do you catch yourself exerting that perfectionism Because oftentimes, like you said, you just find yourself doing it not realizing that you're doing it.
• 27:06
  Mark Spence: So do you catch yourself exerting that perfectionism onto them at times, and then they're like dad, they call you out and say, dad, leave me alone or let me make my decisions.
• 27:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I'm trying to think if that's really ever happened.
• 27:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Much, if anything, I think one of the things I try to do is to like, let's say, one of my kids does something I asked him to do.
• 27:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Like I remember one time I talked to my kids about initiative and taking initiative, you know, and just the importance of that.
• 27:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Like, don't just do what you're told to do, but be the kind of person who looks around.
• 27:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Like, let's say, at home, right, we all live here at home, you have your chores, but look beyond that, you know.
• 27:50
  Emeal Zwayne: And so I remember in our yard, when we were living at our other house, I had this kumquat tree and I love this thing, right, well, one day I go outside and the thing was just almost like a twig sticking out of the ground.
• 28:03
  Emeal Zwayne: This thing was full and big.
• 28:04
  Emeal Zwayne: You know I'm exaggerating, but I'm like what?
• 28:07
  Emeal Zwayne: And Luke, my son Luke, comes.
• 28:09
  Emeal Zwayne: He's like yeah, look, dad, I trimmed the kumquat tree and that it was like.
• 28:14
  Emeal Zwayne: At that moment I'm like good job son.
• 28:19
  Emeal Zwayne: But honestly there was that part of me that was like man, I could right now be like son.
• 28:23
  Emeal Zwayne: This isn't how you trim a kumquat tree.
• 28:25
  Emeal Zwayne: I was so proud of him for taking that initiative and it was in a moment like that where I'm like good job, luke, I am so proud of you.
• 28:33
  Emeal Zwayne: But imagine I was like Luke.
• 28:36
  Emeal Zwayne: What did you do?
• 28:37
  Emeal Zwayne: That one moment in time could affect him so deeply that for the rest of his life, with me at least, he's hesitant to do anything.
• 28:46
  Emeal Zwayne: You know it's rewarding effort over results.
• 28:49
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, like, what effort do you put into this versus what are the results of this thing?
• 28:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, yeah, or you know, even like with school, I want my kids to get straight A's right and I pay for my kids' college.
• 28:59
  Emeal Zwayne: I only pay for A's and B's right.
• 28:59
  Emeal Zwayne: Anything below B, I don't pay.
• 29:00
  Emeal Zwayne: But you, for A's and B's right, anything below B, I don't pay.
• 29:02
  Emeal Zwayne: But you know, there's times when, man, they're doing all that they possibly could they're, you know they have, they're working, they're ministering at church and being part of you know whatever ministry, and then they're going to school and a random class might pop up and they don't do well and they get a C on an exam or in the class.
• 29:18
  Emeal Zwayne: And this is where, as parents, we have to walk and say, hey, good job, I know you tried your best.
• 29:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Now we challenge them.
• 29:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Are you trying your best?
• 29:24
  Emeal Zwayne: Are you working your hardest?
• 29:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Are you?
• 29:25
  Emeal Zwayne: You know what's the tone and tenor of their life?
• 29:27
  Emeal Zwayne: But if that's all you know, dealt with and understood, then you can just come alongside and say, hey, it's okay.
• 29:34
  Emeal Zwayne: And you encourage them and you don't.
• 29:35
  Oscar Navarro: Oh a B what's a, b, why are you getting Bs thing?
• 29:47
  Oscar Navarro: As I was reading about perfectionism, it was interesting to discover that there's this cultural demand on young men and women to be perfect and it goes first.
• 29:52
  Oscar Navarro: It goes in the school system right, where there's this need to absolutely get all straight A's and as soon as a student gets that first B, it's like I am a failure, I'm not going to get the job I'm going to get.
• 30:01
  Oscar Navarro: And so there's this anxiety that so many students walk around college campuses in fear of not being perfect because it's gonna utterly ruin their lives, which the irony, of course, at the end of the day is, once you graduate and move on and you're getting hired, all they care about is the certification of graduation.
• 30:17
  Oscar Navarro: They're not like what did you get in math 101?
• 30:19
  Oscar Navarro: You know what I mean.
• 30:25
  Oscar Navarro: But one of the other ways that perfectionism shows itself in culture too, is social media when, like young women will get online and it's like you think about the way they rate themselves.
• 30:32
  Oscar Navarro: In a regular society, regular culture, without social media, a woman walks into a church service and they're looking for I mean, first, they're looking for the glory of God, but secondarily, a single young woman might be looking for a spouse and they're just, they're looking for a spouse, nothing else thinking about.
• 30:51
  Oscar Navarro: But today, a young woman goes on social media and they see the air, quote perfected self.
• 30:56
  Oscar Navarro: They see the perfect image with the perfect angle, the perfect filter, that sometimes airbrushed and sometimes not even real, and they compare themselves to a perception of perfection.
• 31:10
  Oscar Navarro: And they look themselves in the mirror and they see man, I've got these freckles, my eyes are this, my face is that.
• 31:16
  Oscar Navarro: And ultimately, here's the worst part when we get sucked into that kind of version of perfectionism, is that we miss out on the reality that God is the one that made you, he gave you those freckles, he gave you your beauty.
• 31:32
  Oscar Navarro: And that's the saddest part is that when we compare ourselves in that kind of a way, ultimately we're questioning God's workmanship, that he made us to be, something he desires us to be, and we're comparing that to a facade, a fake image of perfectionism.
• 31:50
  Emeal Zwayne: No, it's good.
• 31:51
  Emeal Zwayne: I was quickly.
• 31:52
  Emeal Zwayne: I can't find it, but I was wanting to find this quote where this guy talked about how he would rather be.
• 31:57
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, rather than being the most glorious creature imaginable, he would rather be the kind who's happy by the fact, no matter what he looks like, that he was fashioned by the hand of God so good that that in and of itself should be, you know, the all sufficiency.
• 32:12
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, Mark, you had put that question to me.
• 32:14
  Emeal Zwayne: I want to put one to you, Would you say, in light of what scripture says you know, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath that having that perfectionistic kind of attitude with your kids could in a sense do that to them.
• 32:26
  Emeal Zwayne: It provokes them to wrath, and brings them.
• 32:29
  Ray Comfort: That's the verse I thought of when you were talking about it.
• 32:31
  Ray Comfort: Wow, not that I'm terrific.
• 32:34
  Mark Spence: Yeah, I think it definitely can.
• 32:36
  Mark Spence: Obviously, we need God's grace and his restraint to prevent something like that from happening.
• 32:45
  Mark Spence: I spoke at a youth group in upstate New York and it was predominantly Asian, and I bring that up for a point.
• 32:51
  Mark Spence: And when I had asked the youth leader what do you find your kids struggling with more than anything?
• 32:57
  Mark Spence: And he said suicide.
• 32:58
  Mark Spence: I said that's what your youth group struggles with more than anything.
• 33:02
  Mark Spence: He said, yeah, I go why?
• 33:06
  Mark Spence: And he says well, you have to understand the Asian culture from which these kids are coming from, that if they don't score a perfect 1600 on the SAT, then they've brought shame to the family.
• 33:17
  Mark Spence: And I was so taken back.
• 33:20
  Mark Spence: That is so far back.
• 33:21
  Mark Spence: I mean I didn't even take the SAT, right, my kids didn't take the SAT.
• 33:26
  Mark Spence: I'm going to spell it, I lost my train of thought.
• 33:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, mark, and I think the point in that is that you have some cultures that are like an honor culture and that's going to have ramifications.
• 33:41
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, you do hear about that a lot businessmen that commit suicide in places like Japan.
• 33:46
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, ray, you had a guy translating for you and you drove the guy crazy.
• 33:50
  Emeal Zwayne: He ran out of the room crying that was in Japan.
• 33:53
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, I was doing Hell's Best, Kept Secret.
• 33:54
  Ray Comfort: And the analogy of the two men sitting on the plane gets so complicated I have to concentrate in English and he was doing it in Japanese, and he just flung his hands up and ran out of the church crying.
• 34:07
  Mark Spence: But then I remember, and then the pastor stood up and the pastor interpreted for you.
• 34:10
  Mark Spence: He did great.
• 34:11
  Ray Comfort: He did great, but I'm wondering about the guy that ran.
• 34:14
  Ray Comfort: No, I was going to run after him.
• 34:16
  Ray Comfort: I thought I can't.
• 34:18
  Ray Comfort: I've got to finish the analogy.
• 34:19
  Ray Comfort: These two guys are sitting on a plane, don't know what to do, but yeah you guys talked about straight.
• 34:22
  Ray Comfort: A's.
• 34:23
  Ray Comfort: I'm serious, I don't think I've got an A in my life.
• 34:25
  Ray Comfort: It was everything C.
• 34:27
  Ray Comfort: I thought it was to match my name or something.
• 34:30
  Emeal Zwayne: I, I remember after, you know, and that's where my perfectionism started again.
• 34:34
  Emeal Zwayne: But you know, before I got saved, I had a 0.32 grade point average.
• 34:39
  Oscar Navarro: Which is perfectly fair.
• 34:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I tried to perfectly fail in 10 work Four Fs, two D minuses, D minuses in PE and drama, which it's almost illegal to give anyone an F in those.
• 34:48
  Emeal Zwayne: And then you know.
• 34:51
  Emeal Zwayne: But then after I got saved, and again it's because I was a gangster and I didn't care.
• 34:55
  Emeal Zwayne: And so I was like, yeah, be perfectionistic and being a gangster and forget school, you know one or the other.
• 35:06
  Emeal Zwayne: But then I got saved and I went from a 0.32 to 4.0 my first semester back to my high school, where I got kicked out and you know and, but to me my heart was, in that sense, I'm doing this under the Lord, I want to give God my best, and I think that's where, again, things can get off kilter.
• 35:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, we could look at perfectionism and say, okay, that can be dangerous, it can have some of its benefits when you're trying to do something right, but we go to the other extreme and become negligent and we start not giving our best.
• 35:31
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, it's fine, it's no big deal, and that's not how it should be in terms of how God has called us.
• 35:37
  Emeal Zwayne: I love what Wayne Grudem said.
• 35:38
  Emeal Zwayne: He said when Jesus commands us to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect.
• 35:41
  Emeal Zwayne: Matthew 5, 48,.
• 35:42
  Emeal Zwayne: This simply shows that God's own absolute moral purity is the standard toward which we are to aim and the standard for which God holds us accountable.
• 35:50
  Emeal Zwayne: The fact that we are unable to attain that standard does not mean that it will be lowered.
• 35:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Rather, it means that we need God's grace and forgiveness to overcome our remaining sin.
• 35:59
  Emeal Zwayne: Similarly, when Paul commands the Corinthians to make holiness perfect in the fear of the Lord, or prays that God would sanctify the Thessalonians wholly, he's pointing to the goal that he desires them to reach.
• 36:10
  Emeal Zwayne: He does not imply that any reach it, but only that this is the high moral standard toward which God wants all believers to aspire.
• 36:18
  Ray Comfort: I'm so delighted to hear you say that, because I was getting nervous, Because often it's interpreted be perfect because your Father in heaven is perfect doesn't mean perfection.
• 36:26
  Ray Comfort: It just means maturity, which means that God was once immature and your Father in heaven is now mature.
• 36:31
  Ray Comfort: So it can't mean that.
• 36:32
  Ray Comfort: It means he has a perfect law, he's perfect and he demands perfection.
• 36:35
  Ray Comfort: We warn every man, we present every man perfect, and that can't be done without the grace of God.
• 36:40
  Ray Comfort: And that's what it drives us to you see that and think I can't be pure of heart.
• 36:43
  Ray Comfort: As Jesus said, I can't be perfect.
• 36:45
  Ray Comfort: I need God's mercy, Amen.
• 36:47
  Emeal Zwayne: But yeah, I mean Oscar, that should.
• 36:49
  Emeal Zwayne: And again, it can cross over into just other areas, but in the spiritual look I yearn to be holy.
• 36:59
  Emeal Zwayne: That's the standard I want to pursue excellence, look, yet.
• 37:03
  Emeal Zwayne: However, I'm going to stumble.
• 37:05
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm going to struggle, but there's God's grace.
• 37:07
  Emeal Zwayne: It's his grace that enables me to live righteously.
• 37:10
  Emeal Zwayne: When I fail, he paid for those sins.
• 37:17
  Oscar Navarro: And then we can apply that to other things too.
• 37:18
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, I've heard it said like this to understand the difference between antinomianism and legalism, which is kind of like what we're alluding to here with this idea of pursuing Christ, could you define antinomianism for those two?
• 37:28
  Oscar Navarro: Antinomianism would be the rejection of God's law, which is to say like God's, it's an abuse of grace, it's to say that God has saved me, therefore my actions no longer matter.
• 37:42
  Oscar Navarro: Legalism would be and there's different forms of legalism, but essentially it's either I'm earning my salvation back or I'm earning my salvation period through my good works.
• 37:49
  Oscar Navarro: And I think the key I've heard an author say it like this the key is recognizing the difference of I want to be accepted, therefore I obey, versus I've been accepted through the blood of Christ, therefore I obey, like the fact that he first loved us while we were yet sinners.
• 38:09
  Oscar Navarro: That should propel us to joyful obedience unto the Lord Right Amen.
• 38:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah and Mark, let me take this as an example and get your thoughts on it.
• 38:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Like I think with, for example, let's take school as an example for our kids.
• 38:23
  Emeal Zwayne: Do you think it's right to say to them something like, hey, look, it's not about the A so much as it is how you glorify God in this, like you're doing this as an offering unto the Lord, versus like, hey, I want to get A's for my reputation, for my accomplishment.
• 38:43
  Emeal Zwayne: You do it unto the Lord, hopefully it'll yield an A, but at least you can walk away with that thought.
• 38:49
  Mark Spence: Yeah, christians should excel more than non-Christians.
• 38:52
  Mark Spence: They really should.
• 38:53
  Mark Spence: You could be a slow learner, but that doesn't mean you stop learning.
• 38:56
  Mark Spence: You don't hit a plateau.
• 38:59
  Mark Spence: There's a saying inside the restaurant business you never want to hire Christians because they're lazy, they don't want to work on Sundays and they're the worst to try to navigate through learning different things, and I think that's terrible.
• 39:13
  Mark Spence: I think that we should absolutely be the best at what we do, and if you mess up you continually, you move forward, right.
• 39:21
  Mark Spence: I mean, what does the scripture say?
• 39:22
  Mark Spence: If somebody doesn't provide for his family, he's worse than an infidel.
• 39:25
  Mark Spence: He's denied the faith, right.
• 39:28
  Mark Spence: So it's not an option to kind of give up, and that's kind of what we are raising up today.
• 39:32
  Mark Spence: Vance Havner said the modern Christian is like a chocolate bunny and he melts under the heat of pressure, which is the modern day warfare that we have.
• 39:41
  Mark Spence: So I think that we need to teach people to gird up the loins of their mind, to wake up early, to stay late, to make your bed and just to work hard to be the best that you could possibly be.
• 39:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, always push them to aim for the very best and the highest, but season it with grace and an understanding that your identity doesn't lie right.
• 40:04
  Emeal Zwayne: You're not a human doing.
• 40:05
  Emeal Zwayne: You're a human being.
• 40:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Your identity lies in the fact you've been made in the image of God, that you're secure in Christ.
• 40:11
  Emeal Zwayne: But that should give you freedom.
• 40:12
  Emeal Zwayne: We talked about freedom on that other episode.
• 40:15
  Emeal Zwayne: It should give you freedom to excel even more, and you're doing it with a noble cause.
• 40:20
  Emeal Zwayne: It's not for some frivolous wreath right, like scripture talks about, but, man, you're pleasing the Lord, you're glorifying him, you're letting your light.
• 40:27
  Oscar Navarro: so shine among men.
• 40:28
  Oscar Navarro: You said something earlier that really struck a chord, which is?
• 40:32
  Oscar Navarro: You alluded to the fact that perfectionism, or being held back by the need to be perfect, is almost like a man-centered view.
• 40:38
  Oscar Navarro: And on that note, there is and I'm going to confess something here.
• 40:42
  Oscar Navarro: But before I confess it, let me just say there is something beautiful and good about accepting our limitedness, our frailty as human beings, because when we recognize that we cannot be perfect, that we'll never, you know, you'll never write the perfect song, you'll never write the perfect book, you'll never do anything that will be absolutely perfect.
• 41:04
  Oscar Navarro: The beauty in that is then you come to depend on the work of God, right, and it moves you away from your own humanness of like.
• 41:13
  Oscar Navarro: I need to excel and perform and have this outcome versus what I'm doing is a sacrifice to the Lord and the outcome, the impact, is up to him.
• 41:25
  Oscar Navarro: He gets the glory for that rather than me getting the glory because I wrote the perfect.
• 41:29
  Oscar Navarro: Whatever.
• 41:30
  Oscar Navarro: My confession in that is that I do struggle with like when it comes to writing.
• 41:34
  Oscar Navarro: I struggle with it because I love literature as an art form, I love prose, I love the way, I love a really well written book.
• 41:44
  Oscar Navarro: You know, I think it's beautiful and it's good, and Ray is encouraging me to write a book, as he's encouraged you guys to write a book too, and you took them up on that offer.
• 41:52
  Oscar Navarro: In spite of your struggle with perfectionism, which is an encouragement to me, my struggle has always been well.
• 42:02
  Oscar Navarro: Just because I know what good writing is doesn't mean I'll be, a good writer but again, my confession is that's man-centered.
• 42:07
  Oscar Navarro: I don't need to be some great writer, I need to trust the Lord.
• 42:11
  Oscar Navarro: My writing should be a sacrifice to Him and the outcome and the result is purely up to Him, because he gets the glory either way.
• 42:18
  Ray Comfort: I think easy on a test to this when it comes to writing, you can write something that's perfect at the night and first thing in the morning.
• 42:25
  Ray Comfort: You think that's an abomination.
• 42:27
  Ray Comfort: As soon as you see it, you think what I thought, that was good last time.
• 42:29
  Emeal Zwayne: I know it's so weird how that happens, but, oscar, I love that.
• 42:30
  Emeal Zwayne: What's the motive, right?
• 42:31
  Emeal Zwayne: It's so weird how that happens, yeah, but Oscar, I love that.
• 42:33
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, like, what's the motive, right?
• 42:34
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, ray didn't do well in school.
• 42:37
  Emeal Zwayne: He didn't do well in English.
• 42:38
  Emeal Zwayne: You nearly failed life.
• 42:39
  Ray Comfort: I still can't do good English.
• 42:41
  Ray Comfort: I did fail in English.
• 42:41
  Emeal Zwayne: You did Okay you failed English and then he ends up writing over 100 books, but, ray, with your first book, my.
• 42:55
  Emeal Zwayne: So that desperation compelled you to do something that maybe you weren't even perfect at.
• 43:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Obviously, before you got saved, you didn't do well in English.
• 43:04
  Ray Comfort: Absolutely.
• 43:05
  Ray Comfort: Actually, I found writing frustrating before I was a Christian.
• 43:11
  Emeal Zwayne: So I had nothing to write about, actually yeah.
• 43:12
  Emeal Zwayne: Now you have a song in your mouth.
• 43:13
  Emeal Zwayne: I like the thought that God uses flawed rather than perfect vessels.
• 43:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Nothing to write about, actually yeah, and that's yeah.
• 43:15
  Ray Comfort: Now you have a song in your mouth and Um, I.
• 43:16
  Ray Comfort: I like the thought that God uses flawed rather than perfect vessels.
• 43:20
  Ray Comfort: You see this in the life of Peter.
• 43:21
  Ray Comfort: You can ask yourself who walked on water in history?
• 43:24
  Ray Comfort: Only two men Jesus and Peter.
• 43:26
  Ray Comfort: Wow, you know, he failed, he sunk.
• 43:29
  Ray Comfort: David Copperfield, did he really?
• 43:33
  Ray Comfort: Um, did he really?
• 43:34
  Ray Comfort: Anyway?
• 43:35
  Ray Comfort: Someone once said and it's a great quote none of us is inflammable.
• 43:41
  Emeal Zwayne: We all make mistakes, that's good, yeah.
• 43:44
  Emeal Zwayne: And you know.
• 43:44
  Emeal Zwayne: The other side of that again, is negligence right?
• 43:47
  Emeal Zwayne: And I think, to prevent us from negligence, as believers, we need to remember this very powerful and, I would say, like haunting, lose sleep type of verse 2 Corinthians 5.10, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
• 44:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Sobering this is speaking to Christians we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
• 44:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Guys, we're going to stand before Christ's judgment seat.
• 44:16
  Emeal Zwayne: We're going to give account to the one who knows every atom in our being, who is known our every thought, motive, intention.
• 44:23
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm not going Where's Ray Comfort?
• 44:29
  Oscar Navarro: Y'all getting crowns.
• 44:31
  Oscar Navarro: I'm getting a dunce hat.
• 44:32
  Emeal Zwayne: And again, the blessing is for Christians.
• 44:34
  Emeal Zwayne: This is not a judgment onto condemnation, but, man, it is gonna be a serious reckoning.
• 44:39
  Emeal Zwayne: It's not gonna be, oh okay.
• 44:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, I'm not going to hell, so all's good.
• 44:41
  Emeal Zwayne: No Scripture speaks of loss of reward and that sobering moment of having squandered so much that God had entrusted into us.
• 44:49
  Emeal Zwayne: I love what Jonathan Edwards said.
• 44:52
  Emeal Zwayne: He said resolved in his resolutions.
• 44:59
  Emeal Zwayne: He said constantly, with the utmost niceness and diligence and the strictest scrutiny, to be looking into the state of my soul, that I may know whether I have truly an interest in Christ or not, that when I come to die I may not have any negligence, respecting this to repent of man.
• 45:15
  Emeal Zwayne: I love that.
• 45:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Like with scrutiny, with intensity, with strictness, like to examine our hearts and to say Lord, am I truly, is Christ my everything.
• 45:24
  Emeal Zwayne: And it's easy to drift from that.
• 45:32
  Mark Spence: The world tells us go hard or go home.
• 45:33
  Mark Spence: And I often tell people go hard, because we're almost home.
• 45:36
  Mark Spence: You know, work hard, strive hard.
• 45:39
  Mark Spence: First, corinthians 9 says do you not know those who run in a race?
• 45:43
  Mark Spence: They all run, but one receives the prize.
• 45:45
  Mark Spence: Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
• 45:47
  Mark Spence: And Paul told the church at Philippi I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, philippi.
• 45:55
  Mark Spence: I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, and I always want to push my kids to a limit, not to one of despair, but one to excellence.
• 46:02
  Mark Spence: And if you study your kids and you study your wife and you study your friends so you can push them to greatness, then you're doing a good thing.
• 46:11
  Mark Spence: It's not a bad thing to push somebody and probe someone to do something that they're not bad thing.
• 46:14
  Mark Spence: To push somebody and to probe someone to do something that they're not doing and to push them out of the nest, to get them to fly and to soar, amen.
• 46:22
  Ray Comfort: And speaking of running, we have Olympic tracks.
• 46:24
  Ray Comfort: Oh yeah, Don't forget that it's free, free Olympic tracks.
• 46:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Check them out at livingwaterscom.
• 46:30
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and I think of again, like we were talking about the different areas in our life and one of the things that I think is so key to remember we talk about it a lot on the podcast and that's the centrality of the church and the life of the believer, the community of God's people.
• 46:47
  Emeal Zwayne: It's always tragic when you hear of someone that you know doesn't have that sort of community and they don't have it because they've been negligent.
• 46:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark Dever and Paul Alexander said if a member shows prolonged negligence in gathering with God's people, how can they say he loves them, and if he doesn't love them, how can he say he loves God?
• 47:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, you know that diligence that you know to man.
• 47:12
  Emeal Zwayne: I need to be with the people of God.
• 47:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, you know that diligence that you know to to man.
• 47:14
  Emeal Zwayne: I need to be with the people of God.
• 47:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Do we not love God's people?
• 47:18
  Emeal Zwayne: How can we say you know we hate our brother, and yet we love God, who we don't see, when that's our brother that we see?
• 47:23
  Emeal Zwayne: And so we need to examine our hearts in that regard.
• 47:26
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray, what were you doing right now?
• 47:27
  Emeal Zwayne: Wait, you think we didn't hear you.
• 47:30
  Emeal Zwayne: You think the people listening to the podcast didn't hear?
• 47:32
  Ray Comfort: what you just did.
• 47:34
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, I repent Mark's drinking from his drink and I just went.
• 47:37
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah.
• 47:38
  Ray Comfort: And.
• 47:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark's being disobedient, drinking from a bottle and not from a cup.
• 47:41
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, because you're a perfectionist.
• 47:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, here we go.
• 47:43
  Emeal Zwayne: You're never good enough, mark, but listen to what RC Sproul said.
• 47:47
  Emeal Zwayne: He said here, then, is the real problem of our negligence we fail in our duty to study God's word, not so much because it is difficult to understand, not so much because it is dull and boring, but because it is work.
• 48:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Our problem is not a lack of intelligence or a lack of passion.
• 48:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Our problem is that we are lazy.
• 48:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Ouch, so there's another area God's word.
• 48:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Why are you neglecting the word?
• 48:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Do you believe it's a living word of God?
• 48:16
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, if you believed you had a billion dollars deposited into your bank account, I'm sure you'd be visiting that bank account on many occasions.
• 48:25
  Emeal Zwayne: You believe this is a living, breathing word of God that's sharper than any two-edged sword.
• 48:30
  Emeal Zwayne: That's the most prized possession on earth.
• 48:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, you should be in it, and if you're not, you're being negligent, you're being lazy.
• 48:37
  Emeal Zwayne: So strive, have those goals.
• 48:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Determine that you wanna honor the Lord in everything that you do.
• 48:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't get tripped up in perfectionism for your own likes or for your own reputation, or whatever.
• 48:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Do it because you wanna be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect, knowing you'll never attain that.
• 48:56
  Emeal Zwayne: But that's the goal, right?
• 48:57
  Emeal Zwayne: That's where you press toward, and Paul said that, right, I haven't attained perfection, but I press toward the goal for the prize of the upper call of God in Christ Jesus and Philippians.
• 49:06
  Emeal Zwayne: And so do that, friends, and do it all unto his glory.
• 49:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Examine your hearts Again.
• 49:11
  Emeal Zwayne: We don't do this podcast merely to give you entertainment.
• 49:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, you get some of that, but we do it to.
• 49:16
  Ray Comfort: What we don't.
• 49:17
  Emeal Zwayne: No, you didn't know that.
• 49:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks for interrupting my powerful, passionate exhortation.
• 49:22
  Oscar Navarro: Honestly.
• 49:24
  Emeal Zwayne: We do it to stir you to serve the true and living God.
• 49:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark, that's one of the most powerful quotes, honestly, I've ever heard you share, and that's original right.
• 49:35
  Mark Spence: Go hard, go home.
• 49:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, yeah, I didn't think it's that deep?
• 49:39
  Mark Spence: No, no, the other one go hard because we're almost home.
• 49:40
  Mark Spence: Yeah, Go hard or go home is what the world says.
• 49:42
  Mark Spence: Go hard because we're almost home is what I say.
• 49:44
  Emeal Zwayne: That's amazing man, seriously, it's really powerful.
• 49:46
  Emeal Zwayne: Okay, thank you, you're perfect I perfected that.
• 49:48
  Emeal Zwayne: You progress.
• 49:55
  Emeal Zwayne: There it is.
• 49:56
  Emeal Zwayne: So there you have it.
• 49:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Friends, we hope you've been blessed and encouraged today.
• 49:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget how to bring your children to Christ and keep them there, avoiding the tragedy of false conversion.
• 50:01
  Emeal Zwayne: The Living Waters mug and the Heaven Study Bible livingwaterscom.
• 50:03
  Emeal Zwayne: Keep coming back.
• 50:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Hey, the podcast is still reaching very high echelons.
• 50:09
  Emeal Zwayne: Help us get perfect friends Look there are countries where the podcast has been number one and, if not number one, close to it even in general here or there, and many countries it's in the top 5, 10, 20 of Christian podcasts or religious podcasts there, and still one of the top in America.
• 50:31
  Emeal Zwayne: So thanks for helping us, friends.
• 50:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget podcastlivingwaterscom with your thoughts and comments.
• 50:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Like and share and put your comments out there.
• 50:38
  Emeal Zwayne: We'll read them.
• 50:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you for joining us, friends.
• 50:41
  Emeal Zwayne: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast, the one podcast you can't wait to turn off.
• 50:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Ooh, that was good today, Ray.
• 50:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Perfect it Hmm.
• 50:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Perfect, it was perfect.