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Unlocking the Power of Your Shadow · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst on Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Well, we're so excited today to have Connie Zweig back
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: on the podcast. We've had her on a couple times before,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: and they've always been blockbuster episodes. So welcome again, Connie.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: It's super exciting to have you on talking about these
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: particular books, which I'll mention in a minute, because as
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I think I've said before, I first came across your
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: work when I started at the Philadelphia Young Seminar in 2000.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: And we were assigned one of your books, and it's
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: still sitting right over there on my shelf. It's been
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a real wonderful guide, and it's a great introduction and
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: a very deep one. There we go, to the topic.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Connie Zweig is a retired Jungian therapist and author of
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Meeting the Shadow, which now has a new edition, and
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Romancing the Shadow, which also has a new edition. And
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: we're having her on to sort of mark the new
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: editions coming out. Her award-winning book, The Inner Work of Age,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Shifting from Role to Soul, extends shadow work into midlife
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: and beyond and explores aging as a spiritual practice. Her book,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path, The Dance of
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening, extends shadow
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: work into religion and spirituality. Her new podcast, Dr. Neal's
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Spiritual Awakening to Non-Duality, posts on all podcast platforms. And
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: she also has a sub stack where there are live
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: streams and new writing. And the sub stack is called shadowworkawareness.com. So, Connie,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: we are so excited to get to talk to you
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: about this. As you well know, Shadow is very up
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: in the collective now, and you are one of the
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: original post-Jungian articulators, so it's thrilling to have you.
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Deb. Really, really happy to
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: join you today.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Shadow has become such a colloquial term. one of Jung's
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: concepts that has really resonated. And yet I think we
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: tend to sort of land on it briefly and then go,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, yes, shadow. Shadow work, definitely.
• 2:54
  Speaker 5: We all have a.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Shadow and keep moving. And your work and your books
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: really get down to the nitty gritty granular level of how,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: where that lives in us and more to the point,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: perhaps what to do about it. there's real methodology here
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: that I think is incredibly useful because it gives people
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: a way to practice.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Deb. Yeah, for some reason, I'm not one
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: of those people who said, oh yeah, shadow and moved on.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: I don't know why. It kind of, with my first analysis,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: it stuck to my bones. And so a lot of
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: my career has been about doing my own shadow work,
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: teaching it to my clients. I'm developing the books that
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: Lisa just mentioned, teaching lots of webinars and courses online.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: And so I've kind of been carrying this for a
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: long time now. And I think that's one of the
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: reasons I sort of feel internally prepared to see what's
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: happening in the collective. I still feel very disturbed But
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: I do feel like I have the language and some
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: tools to be able to understand what's going on. And
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: that's really what I wanted to share.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, by all means. I think everyone is hungry for that.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: So go for it.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: So Meeting the Shadow, which you just held up, now
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: has a new cover and a new epilogue that updates it.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: to the current events. And that book is really an overview.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: It's a kind of a sweeping landscape of how the
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: shadow appears in all the different arenas of our lives,
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: in relationships, in families, in work, in creativity, and in politics.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: And then Romancing the Shadow also has a completely new look.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: And this book focuses on relationships and how we sabotage
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: ourselves in relationships, how the shadow acts out and sabotages
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: our love, our commitment, our communication, our attachment, and so forth.
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: And this book has a new foreword by Kayla Shaheen.
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: Kayla wrote a little journal, a workbook called The Shadow
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: Work Journal, And sold a million copies of it on TikTok. Oh, that's, yes.
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: And so that started a kind of a renaissance of
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: interest in shadow work in the younger generations. Because those
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: of us who are our age and have been in
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: the Jungian world forever have known about this for decades.
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: But she has reached new generations. And that's why both
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: of the publishers of my earlier books came back to
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: me and said, Let's get these out there again. And
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: so I'm thrilled that younger people, and I've had a
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: lot of them reach out to me and say, you know,
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: CBT has its limits. All these other methods have their limits.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: And I'm discovering new parts of myself and why I'm
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: doing what I'm doing with shadow work. So I'm really
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: grateful that this is now reaching new generations. In terms
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: of what we're seeing in the collective, I think, you know,
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: when we turn on the news or read online, the
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: shadow is screaming at us from the headlines now, every
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: moment of every day. And what does that mean? Because
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: as Deb said, we use that word as if we
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: know what it means. It's in the You guys do,
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: so I'm looking forward to this deeper conversation with you
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: than I can usually have. What I see is that
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: because the psyche is kind of built this way, it's
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: built to unconsciously attribute to other people what is unacceptable
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: in ourselves, what we dislike, what is taboo, what is unwelcome,
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  Speaker 4: what is even... horrific to us. Some part of ourselves,
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: a feeling, a habit, a belief, and it may be
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: very hidden even from us. It may not be conscious,
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: but the psyche defends itself against that by attributing it
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: to another person or group. So that group is lazy.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: I'm not lazy. Or that group is aggressive, I'm not aggressive.
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: Or that woman is seductive, I'm not seductive, right? Or
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: that man is money hungry, greedy, but I'm not greedy.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: And all of us are doing this all of the time.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: And sometimes in very overt ways and sometimes in very
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: subtle ways, even within our own families. A family member
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: can become a target of projection within the family and
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: become the family scapegoat. Within our church and religious communities,
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: other groups can become infidels, right? They're going to hell.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: They're non-believers. That happens in every faith tradition. Other kinds
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: of communities, like now we're seeing all the conflicts on
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: college campuses between the people who support Israel and the
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: people who support Palestine. and the way they're making enemies
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: of each other, as if they have nothing in common.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: And that particular conflict is archaic. It's gone on for centuries,
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: and it's rooted in shadow projection. And there's some beautiful
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: essays in Meeting the Shadow about how this happens in
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: the political arena, how it happened during the Cold War
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: with Russia and the U.S., perfect mirror enemies of each other.
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: If we start to use this psychological lens, both in
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: our personal lives and in the collective, in the news,
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: we can start to kind of see through the more
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: obvious dynamics that we're struggling with. Maybe in an intimate relationship,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: could mean somebody is making their part, blaming their partner.
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: You're doing that to me. And what, How can you
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: look at that dynamic as a shadow projection, as a
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: part of yourself, that you're asking the other person to
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: carry for you? It doesn't mean your partner isn't innocent
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: or isn't behaving that way. And if the partner is abusive,
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: it may not be a projection.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Well, and there's always a hook for a projection.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: And there's always a hook.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: So there's some... bit of truth that makes the projection stick.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: Yes. So it goes both ways.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: So if we begin to kind of just use this
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: as framework or a filter on our personal lives and
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: our social lives and our political lives, we can begin
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: to see a little more deeply into what's happening.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, Jim Hollis, who is a noted Jungian
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: analyst and author, has delivered many a presentation and lecture
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: and people say, well, you know, how can, all right, fine.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: I'm willing to deal with my shadow. How do I
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: know what my shadow is? And Jim always says, think
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: of somebody that really rubs you the wrong way. Somebody
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: you can't stand or gets under your skin and then
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: really sort of distill the characteristics of that person that
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: are so aversive. And there's your shadow. And I remember
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: doing that years ago when he came to Philadelphia.
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: I thought, oh, wow.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Well, I had no problem identifying some number of people
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: that I just really did not like. I really thought
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: they were off base or wrong or irritating or a
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: hundred other things. And I thought, really, all those things me?
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: It was quite a moment of amazement and shock. And
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: I think the other thing that's in, I think, Romancing
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: the Shadow in the introduction is that Jung says dealing
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: with our shadows is a moral problem. And that is
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: really an interesting way to put it.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: Of understanding.
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: Are we really going to go there?
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Are we really going to take a look at all
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: those things and really engage with ourselves to take responsibility,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: deepen our awareness, hold the paradox?
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: And not act out that part. I think that's what's
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: the moral ethical issue, is not act out that part
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: of ourselves. And so I would say today, shadow work
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: is a social responsibility.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jung says that, you know, the best, deepest
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: political work that anyone can do is work on withdrawing
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: their shadow projections. I mean, that's a paraphrase, but it's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: something like that.
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  Speaker 4: And that doesn't mean we can't be politically active. We
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: can do our inner work and we can do our
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: outer work, right? We can do, in fact, I have
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: a whole chapter about this in The Inner Work of Age.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: We can do our shadow work and reclaim those projections.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: And then what happens is we have a different motivation
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: for our social justice work. It feels really different. I
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: remember when I was in college in Berkeley in the
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: late 60s and I was an activist, it was all
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: fueled by anger, right? And early family dynamics and projection onto...
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: the establishment. And now my political work feels more like
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: it's fueled by grief. It feels very different. And it's
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: not so much rooted in enemy making, because I feel
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: compassion for the people I watch getting hooked into these
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: belief systems, getting entranced. and voting in certain ways, and
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: voting against their own self-interest. I feel compassion for them
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: and for the consequences now that they're going to reap, right?
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean I should be paralyzed. Just because
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: I want to own those parts, it doesn't mean I
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: don't want to act. So let me take it a
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: little bit further than Jim Hollis, because our method is
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: a little bit more concrete. So We begin to notice
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: what we're projecting onto the other person by either what
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: we're saying to ourselves. Like you said really clearly, Deb,
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: it sounds like you're auditory because you know what you're
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: saying to yourself, right? You know the repeating sentences in
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: your mind when you're triggered by a shadow. So other
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: people are more kinesthetic. So they may be able to
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: track their bodily reactions. And notice what's repeating. Their solar
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: plexus gets queasy. Their shoulders tighten. Their throats close, right?
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: And other people are feeling types. And they may notice
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: the feelings that come up that are the same every
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: single time. Like what you said, I can't stand that.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: So I would be saying to myself, I can't stand that.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: I would recognize because I'm auditory too. But somebody else
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: would recognize the bodily sensations or the feelings. And then
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: the next step is, who is that? What part of
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: me is having that reaction? And it's the same reaction
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: every single time. Every time there's the same trigger, oh,
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: he is so aggressive, I can't stand that. Then you
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: say the same thing, your body reacts the same, and
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: you feel the same feelings. So who is that? And
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: what you do is you give it a name. And
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: you give it an image. So let's say it's, you know,
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: a male aggressor. So you give it an image. Let's
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: say it's a man with a fist. Okay. And it's
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: angry John. Or whatever. We don't want to name it
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: our parents' or partners' names, right? Because we want to
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: kind of free that up. So it's angry John and
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: he's making a fist.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: We have a shadow character that we can identify and
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: start to build a conscious relationship with.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: And this was one of Jung's real insights, was that
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: when you can personify unconscious contents, then you're no longer
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: in identification with them and you can start to have
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: a dialogue and a relationship with that part of yourself.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: Exactly. So you can begin to dialogue verbally or with writing.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: or with creativity, act of imagination, or you can watch
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: for that figure in your dreams, and you can trace
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: it back in your history. When did I first notice
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: Angry John? In college, in high school, in childhood. And
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: why did that shadow character form? Because every shadow character
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: forms as a defense to protect you against something. And
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: it has valid needs. Like maybe angry John needs to
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: be heard or needs to be seen as strong. There's
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: a valid need in every shadow character. And if we
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: as adults can begin to meet that need of that
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: part of ourselves, it will begin to recede. It will
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: start to lose its charge. And there's this shift that
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: happens in the psyche. So I remember for me, my
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: very first shadow figure was the judge. I was very
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: judgmental when I was growing up. And as I worked
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: with that and saw that it was protecting, because it
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: was like making me feel superior, it was protecting me
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: from feelings of inferiority, feelings of not enough. And as
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: I began to work with it over a number of years,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: it receded. I don't experience so much judgmentalness anymore in
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: late life. And that's because when it's unconscious, it has
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: more charge. And the more conscious relationship we make with it,
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: as Lisa was saying, the less we identify with it,
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: and the more it can take a different place in
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: the psyche. So romancing the shadow is about how to
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: do that in relationships. Yeah. how to break unconscious communication
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: patterns and behavior patterns and really create, you know, conscious, loving, empathic,
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: clear communication habits. Because that's what allows us to be
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: intimate and to feel safe, right? And to feel attached.
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: Can you give us a few examples of that?
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Because I think there aren't very many people who don't
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: need more of that.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we all do. So one of my clients came
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: to a session crying. She was about 30 years old,
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: and she told me that every night she'd go to
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: the fridge and eat ice cream while she was waiting
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: for her boyfriend to call. And he would never call,
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: or he would rarely call. and she would eat the
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: ice cream and she would go to bed and she
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: was getting really depressed and that's why she reached out
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: to me so the presenting symptom as we would say
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: in therapy was overeating but we began to explore that
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: and what we discovered was She was afraid of communicating
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: with him directly. Do you want the relationship? Because she
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: was afraid of being rejected and abandoned. And so she
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: would eat compulsively. And then she realized when we were
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: talking that her mother did the same thing. Because her
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: father used to come home very, very late and he
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: wouldn't call. And her mother would eat. And she modeled
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: that behavior to her daughter. And the mother, instead of
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: communicating with her husband, just stuffed the feelings. And she
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: learned to stuff them with the food. So that's what
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: my client was doing. It made perfect sense, right? She
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: didn't have another strategy. So it took us a few
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: months of exploring this. And she called the shadow character
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: the foodie. And every time the foodie would come up,
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: She'd have the same thought, he doesn't care about me,
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: and the same feeling and empty belly or sensation and
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: empty belly and the same feeling of sadness and helplessness.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: And so she would eat. Some people would drink. Some
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: people would smoke weed. Some people would use another substance, right?
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Scroll on your phone.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: Right. Or have sex with someone else. So we called
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: it the foodie and she began to track it over
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: the next few months and see that it was basically
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: related to this fear of being rejected. So eventually she
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: called him up and she said, do you want to
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: be in a relationship with me? And he said, no,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: I just haven't been able to tell you. So she
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: was devastated. But here's the thing. Two weeks later, she said, oh,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: my God, I'm so glad I know now. I mean,
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: it hurts, but I'm so relieved to know the truth.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: I don't have to spend my life waiting for him
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: and eating. So she used that situation to do her
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: shadow work, and she learned a lot about herself and
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: about her capacity to communicate her needs and to survive.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: the response.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Connie, can I just follow up, though? Because I think
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: maybe it would be good to try to sort of
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: nail down a good definition of shadow. Because with that example,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of thinking, gee, that sounds like a complex.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Because I always think of shadow, you know, according to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the Jungian formulation, it's really these parts of ourselves that
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: are a little distasteful to us that we just don't
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: want to know about. But it sounds like when she
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: was in this terrible state of dysregulation and distress and
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: feelings of abandonment and loneliness, perhaps, that she was, like
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: you were saying, she was eating as kind of a
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: defense against those feelings. But to me, that feels a
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: little different than shadow. So how does your understanding of
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: shadow differ from this kind of classical Jungian sense of shadow?
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: My sense is there's shadow material in every complex. Mm-hmm.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: So if we have a negative mother complex, there are
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: shadow characters in there. It could be a negative body image.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: It could be a sexual abuse history that has a
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: shadow character in it, right? It could be an anger
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: or a depression or some kind of affect issue that
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: is part of that grouping of feelings and images that
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: we call a complex but that can be isolated out
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: as a shadow character and there could be multiple shadow
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: characters in a negative mother complex does that make sense
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: so like in my mother complex i would say there's
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: a depressive part that's a shadow character and and then
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: there's what i would call a passive shadow character that's different.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, my mother really gave up her power to
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: my father. It has a different felt sense than the
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: depression she suffered. So I work with them differently, even
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: though I'm aware that they're part of that complex.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: But I can see that it gives you and gives
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: the person you're working with and could give us by
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: reading and using your books, a way to get a
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: real handle on something, to isolate it, differentiate it, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: make it real, of that there is this part of
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: the complex. And sometimes people, and there's a whole way
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: of therapy in Sandra Trey, that, you know, I'm very
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: supportive of people making or getting some little figurine of
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: something to really concretize it. Like your example of Angry John.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Maybe get a little plastic figurine of the Incredible Hulk
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: or something. But again, what we're doing is separating and
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: differentiating more and more and more, rather than it's all
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: in here and it's vague. Now I have this little
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: figurine of, let's say, hypothetically, the Hulk. And it actually
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: helps to have something you can hold and touch, something
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: maybe you write in your journal, something you can talk to.
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: And you know, Deb, it also adds the archetypal dimension, right?
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Because the Hulk has this archetypal quality. Angry John feels
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: a little more personal, right? But if it's the Hulk
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: or whatever name we might give to a masculine a
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: Zeus figure, then we can add the archetypal dimension to it.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: And I think that for people who really want to
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: do Jungian work, that's the next level of shadow work.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: And that's in Romancing the Shadow, there's a lot of
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: the archetypal dimension to each of these characters. And that
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: helps us with our dream work too, right? That leads
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: us right there.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: That's such a great point because this is a way
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: to do it, a way to make it, you know,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: some of these words that we have about shadow, we
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: think we know what it means, or archetypal is out
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: there in the collective. And what does that mean? You know,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: it's like, wow, that's like archetypal. Whereas, you know, if
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: you have that figure in your, that image, that feeling,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: and it's a shadow element of the aggressor, and you
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: personify it, you may actually get to an archetypal taproot.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: All these things have a universality as well as how
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: we personalize it in ourselves.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: You know, when I was writing Romancing the Shadow in
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: the 1990s, I was exploring Athena because I realized at
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: some point in my own analysis that I was really
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: living the story of the virgin goddess Athena, who never married.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: This was before I met my husband, who never married.
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: She was the goddess of the city, of learning. She
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: came out of her father's head. It was my story
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: in every detail. And so I got a little statue
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: of the goddess Athena.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: I have a collection of of some goddess statues on
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: my bookshelf. And that helped me so much. And let
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: me see if I can explain why. Because it lifted
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: my story out of the personal realm into this universal,
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: you know, I want to say heroine's journey. We don't
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: have a good word for it, but into....
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Well, you understood that your life was part of the
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: great story.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: Into the great story.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: It wasn't just yours.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: That is so freeing, isn't it?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: It's very healing.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: It's very healing to recognize that. And the thing is,
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: living Athena's life gave me a great career life. But
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: she cannot do relationships. And when I met Neil, she
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: became a shadow figure. Because she was the one who
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: kept cutting off The intimacy. She didn't want to be trapped.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: She wanted her freedom. She's a virgin goddess. She didn't
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: want to be bonded, right? She wanted just the contribution
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: of work. And every time I would do that, Neil
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: would say, that's Athena. And I started to recognize that
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: she was becoming a shadow figure. And I had to
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: let her change her position in my psyche if I
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: was going to really have a serious relationship. So that
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: story no longer served my intention. And it took a
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: long time to make that shift out of that story.
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: And there are very few feminine archetypes that are complex
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: enough for our sophistication today, right? I mean, I wasn't
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: going to become Hera.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, nobody wants to be Hera.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it was very tricky. In my psyche, it
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: was very tricky. I knew the story was changing, but
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: you can't control that with your ego. You know, it
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: has to unfold. So luckily, I found a guy who
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: understood and who helped me through. Yeah.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: So in some sense, the part of you, we might
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: say the part of you that, you know, was ready
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: and open for a relationship was very much in the shadow.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: And it was something that was a shadow aspect that
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: you needed to, that you wanted to and were able
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: to integrate maybe, you know, toward the middle of life.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. And you see, we could say that that
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: was part of my mother complex. That part of me,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: I remember making a vow when I was very young
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: that I would not become my mother. I think a
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: lot of women have, girls and women have felt that, right?
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: I would not live her life. So that was, that
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: inability to bond and to have intimacy was part of
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: that complex and it was a shadow figure.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: And I agree with you that Greek mythology doesn't necessarily
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: give us really great images of the feminine. But there
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: is much more to choose from. There's always Isis, if
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: you want a mythological figure, or plenty of images from India,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: and plenty of images even just from stories. I remember
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: as a child in the children's library of meeting Madame
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Curie and Harriet Tubman and a whole host of, and
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: there are plenty of sources of inspiration for any of
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: these shadow elements. You have a wide range of choices.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: Yes. Well, right now, the figure that's by my bed
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: is Saraswati. And she's the Indian goddess of learning and music. Yeah.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: And her story is very beautiful to me. So you're right.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: We need to explore lots of other cultures and see
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: what resonates. And then watch and see if it changes
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: over time. Right? Because for one cycle in my life,
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: Athena was a great fit. And then she wasn't anymore.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: She became a shadow figure, sabotaging my dreams.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: I think you're also veering into what is often termed
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: golden shadow or positive shadow, that we can pick images
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: and concretize them in a figurine or a drawing or
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: something like that, of something that is important to us,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: the telos of where does Psyche want to go? What's
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: uppermost for us now as, here's my intention, here's what
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: resonates with me, here's what calls me.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: To keep that in mind and to keep the connection
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: then between what's bubbling up from below in the unconscious
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: and lifting it up to consciousness, just in a relatively easy,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: small way of like, oh, I see that every morning
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: and I see that every evening. And yes, I want
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: to keep that bigger purpose of my life just in mind.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: In my awareness. And an image can do that. Yes.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: The thing about shadow is that, you know, as you mentioned, Connie,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: it gets projected. That's what happens with shadow. And that's
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: where we first meet those parts of ourselves is in projection.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: But the invitation is to.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: To, to meet that part as your, as your book says,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: as the title says, and, uh, invite it in and
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: develop a conscious relationship with it. And in certain sense,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: integrate it just like you integrated the capacity for, for
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: a relationship. Um, and of course we can never entirely
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: integrate the shadow. It's not like, Oh, I'm done.
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: I've integrated my shadow, but the, The point is that
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: the shadow is, you know, aspects of us that we've
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: split off, we buried, we didn't want to know about.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: We want to say that's not me. You know, Jung
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: said the shadow is everything that I wish I, that
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't, that I don't wish to be, I think
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: is the exact wording. The shadow is everything I don't
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: wish to be. We certainly don't want to be thought
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: of that way by other people. But if we can
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: turn toward those parts of ourselves, you know, it's like
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: in your early life, you didn't value relationships maybe. And
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: so it was very much a shadow characteristic. But when
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: you turn toward it, you're like, wow, look, there's so
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: much life here. There's so much energy. And It's a
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: little uncomfortable to think of myself being that way, but
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: maybe I could just try that on. And then it
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem so scary anymore. And then maybe we can
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: access some of the energy that's been kind of stored
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: away in those parts of ourselves that we just didn't
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: let ourselves know about.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: And that's the gift.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Recovering that energy that's locked up there. I think also...
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: I would suggest to people, if you're struggling with this
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: in a relationship, to see if you can share this
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: framework with your partner, whether through reading or class or podcast.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: Because some of what happened for me was that Neil
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: became able to understand what was going on, why I
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: was the distancer and he was the pursuer. And what
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: were the shadow characters in there and what was going on?
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: And that it wasn't personal, right? It wasn't against him,
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: even though it felt initially to him like it was.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: And why we would keep having the same fights. And
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: as we started to really explore this deeply, we really
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: came to know each other in a way that I
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: think many couples don't. Because most, or I shouldn't say most,
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: but some couples... live in a kind of role-based persona
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: relationship and don't really explore the psyche or the unconscious
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: of one another. And so when we got married, we
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: got married in five different traditions, four different spiritual traditions
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: and the shadow. And we made a vow to honor
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: and respect each other's shadow characters. And we called that
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: a shadow marriage. It took us five years to get there.
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: It wasn't a quick and dirty process, but it was
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: a kind of vow to inner work, you know, take
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: the journey together to really honor each other's struggles and
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: its issues and inner obstacles, timing. choices, and to really
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: try to understand why all that was unfolding that way.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: So it's been a very beautiful, you know, I feel
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: that our relationship has been a spiritual practice because we
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: made that vow. But you can only do that together.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: It's very hard for one person in a relationship to
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: do that. I've seen it. I've seen it happen with
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: just one person in the partnership, but it's more challenging.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, another thing that Jim will say sometimes is, you know,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: you want to know about your shadow, ask your spouse.
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I was talking to my husband about, you know, someone
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: in my family that I complain about a lot. You know,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: just one of those things. It's like, oh, my God,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: can you believe what she did? And I said, I
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: wonder what she says about me. He goes, do you
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: want to know? Because I can tell you what she
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: says about you.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Ah.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah.
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: So was there a mirror there in what you were
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: both saying?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Well, he just meant, I know where you are acting
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: in a shadowy way. Yes, she's acting in a shadowy way. Absolutely.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: But I know where you act in a shadowy way too.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: And of course, I'm sure he has good insight about that.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: Uh-huh. Right.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: You know, I just want to add, highlight your book,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Romancing the Shadow in this context, because it is so
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: specific and so detailed. And I don't know of any
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: couple or maybe friendship, neighbors, anything in human relationships where
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: we don't struggle with this stuff. Sex and power and
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: idealism and judgment and the list goes on and on.
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: And money. Oh, let's not leave that out.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: So these are books that I just think ought to
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: be on everybody's bookshelf. And you can dip in and
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: dip out.
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: It's not as if.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: You have to say, I'm going to gobble up the
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: whole 300 pages, you know, every night until I'm done.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: It's not that long. Is it? Oh my God, it is.
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: I decided to do a page count. I was just curious.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: I thought, how many pages does it take to get
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: through all these topics? And the answer is 300. But
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: go in it a bit at a time. It's like
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: having a figurine on your nightstand or kitchen table or windowsill.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Let your awareness grow gradually, and it can.
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: And These are books that.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: Are tools to yourself, to your own authenticity and awareness
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: and greater intimacy and understanding with people. We're all hungry
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: for that. And here's something you can put your hands
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: on and implement.
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: And also for understanding the collective and what's going on
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: now in our country and in the world, right?
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: As you said, Connie, I think it is just what
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: we're wired to do.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: And I think we all do it. And I think,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you know, you're right that it is a very, I
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: think it is just what politicians do, right, is find
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: someone to kind of demonize. And, you know, we have
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: to be careful as citizens that we are thoughtful about
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: what we take on board, you know. Eric Neumann wrote
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: this very important book called Depth Psychology and a New Ethic.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: And Eric Neumann was a colleague of Jung's and he
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: was also Jewish and he and his family immigrated to
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Israel after, I think after World War II. He lived
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: through the Holocaust and, you know, so he wrote Depth
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Psychology and a New Ethic afterwards. And basically what he
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: says in it, this is like the one sentence summary
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: of the book is, look, human societies have always, to
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: a certain extent, utilized shadow projection as a way of
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: kind of managing in-group, out-group. And it's been the source
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: of a lot of suffering. But we are now capable
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: of inflicting such destruction on each other that we have
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: got to stop doing that. So Depth Psychology and A
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: New Ethic, this very important book, it's small, but it
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: really calls for us, to do exactly what you've been
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: inviting us to do today, which is to take responsibility
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: for our shadow.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: I think these times call us to really work harder
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: to see shadow. You know, out there and in here,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: the old alchemical mantra from the alchemists used to be,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: as above, so below.
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: We see in our country, in the macro, what is
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: going on in the micro. And take that really seriously.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: And Connie, what I'm so appreciative is that your books
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: have given us another tool to help with that discernment.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And so we are so grateful for you coming back
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: on the podcast today. And we will have links to
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: your books in the show notes. So everyone should run
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: out and buy the books.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: Thank you both so much. I love talking to you.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: Thank you for all your work over the years.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: You too. Wish you both really well.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com. If
• 43:25
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• 43:28
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