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Stars Moving Pro-Homosexual · Passing On The Faith

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it turns out the world is defined as the lust of the eyes, lust of pride, lice lust of the flesh, and pride of life.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: So lust and pride.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: You put a homosexual together with the word pride, and what do you get?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: The world.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: So now it turns out that the spirit, the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long suffering, generous goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, which is just the opposite of the fruits of the flesh.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Steve, if if you ever get interviewed by somebody who promotes gay pride, you're talking to people who are all about the works of the flesh.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: You see, this is not rocket science.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is not like seminary-level theology here, Amy Grant.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and Hasseltine.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And Hasseltine.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is you get interviewed by pride source.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you're interviewed by the world.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: By the flesh.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you're and if you're cowtowing to them, you're just simply saying, I'm all about the flesh here.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all about the world.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not about the fruits of the spirit.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you are about gay pride, you're not about the fruits of the spirit.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to listening on the face.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Every week, you believe in this week's previously moving through 2014.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Conversations in the first movement for homosexual.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Steve, I'm gonna go back to our most popular program ever.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was the most popular program.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: It became so popular, it went all around the world in effect in South America, Europe, Asia.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: We have uh newspapers all around the world that covered this program because I mentioned that I had a bit of a problem with the Disney production frozen.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And wow, did we did we become popular all around the world on that one?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I took a position against unnatural relations with reindeer.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and that was incredibly controversial.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was a little surprised it was that controversial.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to for a man to take a position against unnatural relations with reindeer, and including a light reference to that in a children's film, and and and to get the whole world all up in arms, including most Christians.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: That surprised me.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: That just surprised me.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I would expect jokes about unnatural relations with reindeer on the Howard Stern show.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you could expect anything there.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: But with the little trolls in Frozen for my eight-year-old daughter or my six-year-old son, I I I still haven't I still don't quite understand what uh what is happening in the minds of hundreds of millions of parents around the globe.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: But here, not a month or two after I came out and said, I I think there may be a problem here.
• 3:09
  unknown: Okay?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I came out and said, I think there may be a problem here, and received more flack than I've ever received in all my life.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Atlantic magazine comes out just a couple of days ago with a large article on just this topic admitting exactly what I accused them of.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a I I knew it was gonna happen, Steve.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I told my wife, you just see in a year or two, I will be vindicated.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was only a month.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was encouraged.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and here's the article.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is Atlantic magazine came out, I don't know, uh, a couple days ago.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And here's the title.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just Frozen.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Most Disney movies are pro-gay.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: The culture warriors have decided Disney's Frozen is queer.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Elsa hiding her ice powers could be read as a metaphor for the closet.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: The Oscar-winning Let It Go plays like a coming out anthem, and the character in the film evokes the question of whether homosexuality is a choice by inquiring of Elsa's powers, born with it or cursed.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Some liberals have praised the film for its subtext.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Some conservative have denounced it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you click on the word denounce, it goes directly to a Newsweek article referring to myself.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or the Daily Beast article.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um But here it goes on.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the most remarkable thing about queer readings of the film may be how unremarkable they really are.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Through both its corporate practices and the content of its films, Disney, for decades, has implemented the so-called gay agenda, which is to say helping make the world a more accepting place.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Which is what Atlantic and Newsweek and Time and everybody's all about anyway.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why these Christians don't say, yeah, it's about gay.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's about homosexuality.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Disney is about homosexuality.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: They've been that way since 1991.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is the biggest no-brainer anybody has ever talked about ever, and it happened to be some little guy in the Emperor's New Clothes procession who stands up and says, I think the dude's nude, and it comes from this radio program in my basement out on the eastern plains of Colorado.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, to start in the most obvious place, this again, Atlantic magazine, a couple days ago.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: As a business, Disney has long held a progressive attitude towards LGBT people.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Gay Pride events have been hosted at Disney World since 1991.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is that, 24 years ago?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: The company started offering its gay employees health insurance benefits for their partners since 1995, a decision that wasn't entirely popular back then.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: They have been on the front lines.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: On the very, very, very front line, on the very edge of the battle for bringing homosexuality into the marketplace of ideas and into every family in America as a norm.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Disney has been there.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: One of the most poignant examples of the company's tolerant atmosphere, in the case of lyricist Howard Ashman, wrote songs for Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, was also closely involved in those films' productions, casting actors, and holding story meetings with animators.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, the point I've made again and again is symbols mean stuff.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Symbols mean stuff.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be an idiot.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Symbols mean stuff.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Symbols mean stuff.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: He goes on and on.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: He gets many, many, many, many examples.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just throw in one of them here, another obvious example, Mulan, where the protonist disguises herself as a male soldier.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: When the soldiers later dress themselves as courtesans, as they sneak into the palace, the film completes the theme of gender as performance, with women pretending to be men, men pretending to be women.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Mulan's I Want song also plays like an anthem for kids born into the wrong gendered body.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Quote, when will my reflection show who I am inside?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And intriguingly, the film insinuates that her male captain fell in love with her while she was masquerading as a man.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there it is.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So why are people so mad at me?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Atlantic is a paragon of Christian.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, they're not.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: They're not.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would say they're not super left either.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I would say Atlantic magazine's not super left.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is like Huffington Post.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is super left.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Atlantic magazine is pretty much America.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: So are they going to get killed on this?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say everybody's going to say, yeah, it's all about homosexuality.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: We want our kids to be homosexuals.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Get over it.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: You Christians.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the Christians are pretending that they're not doing it.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Stop pretending.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, guys.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Stop pretending.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just say that's what they're doing and be done with it.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can agree with it or not agree with it.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But at least, at least tell the truth.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Acknowledge that that's what it is.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they're doing.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: They say they're doing it.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So say, okay, that's what they're doing.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's their agenda.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Over 2,000 years of church history, there have been no Christians who've accepted homosexuality or homosexual marriage until the last 10 years.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been really interesting.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And Steve, you know, to think that Christians are so impressed with Nero today.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what Nero tried to do when he tried to marry these young men.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's kind of like Obama being real impressed with Margaret Sanger, who wanted to get rid of the Negro race.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of a shock.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: That that would happen with Christians today, but uh obviously anything that's politically correct, anything that's politically correct.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime the Zeitgeist is out, they're blowing very hard.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit of the Age blows very, very hard with these men.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: They have a hard time resisting it.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if the Spirit of the Age is moving the wrong direction, many, many Christians jump on board.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is an article from charisma.com referring to what happened with Dan Heseltine when he came out on Twitter, and he said, This is what Dan said.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to make sense of the conservative argument, but it doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Feels akin to women's suffrage.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Women's suffrage.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's a good one.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is the argument born of isolated application of scripture, or is it combined with the knowledge born of friendship with someone who is gay?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, the the epistemological authority for this man is not the word of God.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: The epistemological authority is the friend who is gay.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and being part of this system where you run into people who all understand that this is a socially accepted ethic in the 21st century.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: In the postmodern age of relativism, this is what people accept, at least for the time being, until they accept cannibalism after that, and then they accept child molestation after that, and then they accept whatever.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: They won't call it child molestation, by the way, they'll call it child love.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: They'll call it man boy love.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, they've already got an organization for that.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they do.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: They've got it all set up.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just that these people are so nice.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're nice people, and they're socially accepted.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So why in the world doesn't Paul accept them?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've just finished a 2,000-year study on what the Christian church said about homosexuality.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it turns out that yeah, the Christian church has been opposed to homosexuality over 2,000 years, but they also uh did their best to find ways in which to bring these people to repentance.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: They used to call it penance, but they it was a programmed uh approach to repentance.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't particularly like a programmed approach to repentance, but they said, hey, repentance is essential.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Repentance is accept essential for people who want to be part of the kingdom of God.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, we see the same thing.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yet it's homosexuality is mentioned by the Apostle Paul.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then Paul says, But such were some of you, past tense, such were some of you, but you've been cleansed.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the cleansing, the changing, the shifting around is critical for those who are part of the Christian church.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that Dan Hasseltine does not want to face.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you take a look at uh other people in the Christian music industry like Dennis Jernigan, who was cleansed.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: He uh you know, he was a homosexual at one time, he's now married, writes some of the some of the better Christian music of the day for for churches to use.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: He has worship uh CDs out there.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Great musician.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I want to talk uh about the CCM thing.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um Jernigan is probably not the number one musician in in the CCM market today.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but Amy Grant is.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, by the way, Jars of Clay is somewhere around the 12th position as far as number one albums are concerned.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: They have sold some six million albums, which is more than the downloads that we have achieved to this point on this program.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna get there.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna get there someday, yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, by the way, before I get to Amy Grant here from charisma.com, this is Michael Brown, and he's he's concerned.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: He says this is the day of full-blown incestuous relationships on popular TV shows like Game of Thrones, of other shows glorifying pal polyamory, polygamy from the big love to sister wives to bit my wife, five wives, and teen pregnancy, of news reports about the wedding of three lesbians.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these are crazy things that are happening all the time now.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And how in the world is Dan Hasseltine gonna look at these non-traditional marriages as in three lesbians?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I even want to talk about what happens with that.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: See, Steve, we're we're we're moving into some of the most outrageous forms of sexuality and quote unquote marriage the world has ever seen.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Dan Hasseltine is out there in the front encouraging Christians to accept this kind of thing.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And Amy Grant is right behind him.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the example where she is being interviewed by Pride Source.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you ever get a chance to be interviewed by Pride Source, okay, I want to distinguish between two things.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about homosexual pride or gay pride, we're talking about number one, uh licentiousness, and number two, or lust, and number two, pride.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: As it turns out the world is defined as the lust of the eyes, lust of pride, lice lust of the flesh, and pride of life.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So lust and pride.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: You put homosexual together with the word pride, and what do you get?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: The world.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: So now it turns out that the spirit, the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long suffering, generous goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, which is just the opposite of the fruits of the flesh.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, Steve, if if you ever get interviewed by somebody who promotes gay pride, you're talking to people who are all about the works of the flesh.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: You see, this is not rocket science.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is not like seminary-level theology here, Amy Grant.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and Hasseltine.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Hasseltine.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is you get interviewed by pride source.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you're interviewed by the world, by the flesh.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you're and if you're kowtowing to them, you're just simply saying, I'm all about the flesh here.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all about the world.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not about the fruits of the spirit.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you are about gay pride, you're not about the fruits of the spirit.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is this is not deeper life here.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is not where you've you finally have reached the the pinnacle or the depths of Christianity, and then you realize that everything that the Bible has said about homosexuality is maybe it's not right.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So Amy Grant is interviewed by Pride Source, and she was even asked to perform an a wedding of one of her gay fans, though had to decline for scheduling reasons.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: That according to the article, for scheduling reasons.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a quote.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was honored to be invited.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was honored to be invited.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning what?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning I like gay weddings.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that what she's saying?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have to tell you, any time somebody asks me to perform at a wedding, I say I do not have a good track record.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of weddings I performed at, the marriages have ended poorly.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if she sang at her own.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Could be.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's she's talking about her own wedding.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, could be.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because it at least one of them didn't turn out very well.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, we can talk about the breakdown of CCM in the area of marriage.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's what's leading to homosexual marriage as well.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: But Steve, I mean, this is a woman that is certainly not opposing homosexual marriage.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: It appears that she is endorsing it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it says here she's raised in a conservative Christian home.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't have much exposure to LGBT people until she went out on tour and met LGBT fans.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: She described how her views on LGBT people have changed.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Quote, I have had so many occasions in my life where I felt really strongly about something, but that feeling has changed.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning that.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning that I used to be conservative.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not anymore.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I used to have strong feelings about the Bible.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: No longer do.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: I used to feel very strongly about the truth of Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, perhaps even Leviticus 20.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: But not anymore.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the that's the thing I'm getting here.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: She also acknowledged that the Christian church has not had a good track record of LGBT inclusion.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that is true over 2,000 years.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: But not in the sense that the Christian church wasn't interested in re-inclusion of these people in the church.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe me, Steve, I've spent the last uh three weeks studying 2,000 years of what the church fathers said about it, what the Irish Church said about it, what the Roman Church said about it, what the Reformers said about it, and what you find in church history we got the greatest minds, the greatest Christians, the people who are martyred for their faith over the first three to four hundred years of the Christian church, okay, versus Amy.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder who uh is is higher in there.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Versus Amy.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Who's Amy?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Versus Dan Hassel something or other.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Who's Dan Hassel somebody?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Who's he?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Up against the Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1, up against Chrysostom, Augustine, Justin Martyr, Moses, Cyprian, Martin and Luther, John Calvin, John Not.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And finally you come to the pinnacle of the apostasy of the Western world, and you run into Amy, who is being interviewed by Pride Source.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you're thinking to yourself, hmm, I wonder whose position I should take.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Should I s should I stay on the side of Moses, the Apostle Paul, the 2,000 years of Christian leaders in the Christian church?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or should I go with Dan Hasseltane or Amy, what's her name?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the choice is pretty clear.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Steve, um, you talked about Dennis Jernigan coming out of the homosexual lifestyle.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks thank God there are some who have been washed, who have been cleansed, but so much of the CCM's going the other direction right now.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is of course representative of what's happening in evangelical Christianity.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all need to step back and look at what's happening.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and and those who take a strong position, the historical position, the biblical position, are going to be very much marginalized and perhaps even persecuted.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that that that may very well be the case.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they will be very unpopular.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: They will not be receive a lot of downloads on their YouTube accounts.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it won't happen.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: But meantime, Ray Boltz comes out of the closet, confesses he's gay.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Ray Boltz was a big, big guy.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I used to play this guy's stuff when I was doing CCM back in the 1980s.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can remember Ray Boltz.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: He was singing stuff like Watch the Lamb, the Anchor Holds, I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: For 20 years, he was a staple for the CCM industry, earning several certified gold albums, three Dove Awards, and 12 number one hits.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: This guy was a big shot.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Recently, uh he just came out of the closet.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was married for 33 years, raised four kids, but in 2004 dropped the bombshell on his family.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Poor family.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm leaving it on pulling the hand grenade, rolling it into the family.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: So is he still making albums for CC?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, still doing albums.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, did uh album recently called um True.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I wish he knew something about the truth.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: But uh there's something very, very wrong.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very wrong with modern day evangelicalism.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very wrong.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And what is it?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, here's the deal.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: These guys are denying the possibility of truth.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: See, the the fact is, all this homosexual stuff aside, forget the jars of clay, Dan Hasseltine, and everything he's saying about homosexual marriage.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the issue.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know what the issue is?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: The issue is the word of God will be defined with the knowledge born of friendship with someone who is gay.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the epistemological basis by which we are going to reinterpret the word of God.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Our hermeneutic in the postmodern age is set by relativism.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: If Dan Hasselton was very honest, he should just step out and say, I don't believe there's a possibility of absolute truth.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the epistemology I'm using to reinterpret scripture and reinterpret it and reinterpret it and reinterpret it because there is no truth in postmodern relativism.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: This guy should just step out and say, There's no possibility of truth.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I am a postmodern.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I am a relativist.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the young men that come through our churches today, Steve, are young men who are trying on new t-shirts all the time.
• 22:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: You follow me?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying on, they got to collect 45 t-shirts before they die.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: They move through every new movement.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: They they they they they're attracted to every new little piece of information that's coming out through the internet, and and and they're visiting 1,700 websites in any given three days, and they're coming up with new truths all the time, and there is no ultimate truth where they are rooting themselves in scripture as the absolute truth.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not defining their epistemological framework, their worldview.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Dan Hasselty needs to repent, number one, number one, of the fact that he himself at bottom has jettisoned the possibility of absolute truth.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, because of that, in the debate, we need to come back and say, yeah, but you seem to be very opinionated about things for somebody who has jettisoned absolute truth.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly you're very, very opinionated, at least for the time being, at least for the next 10 minutes, at least for the next three years, at least as long as homosexual marriage is going to be very, very popular until everybody dies out, and then we move on to a new social system in the year 2100, and then he moves on to another truth, and then another truth, and another truth.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: He needs to admit that he does not have a standard for absolute truth, therefore he doesn't belong in the debate at all.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody who says, I've given up on relativism, he's given up on the possibility of.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Truth for any given word he has used in the last sentence.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Every word he's used in the last sentence.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: He was assuming he had some truth value or some meaning attached to that word, but there is no meaning attached to any individual word he uses.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: He has no right to an opinion.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: He has no right to be in a debate.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: He has no right to say anything.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: He has no right to think anything.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: He needs to shut up right now and be self-consistent with his postmodern relativism, which is the ultimate epistemology he uses to establish the hermeneutic whereby he twists scripture again and again and again and again.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same problem with Matthew Vines, who's come out with his new book with Multnomah Press, or at least one of the affiliates of Multnomah Press, to tell us all that for the first time in all of human history, Matt Vine has the right to reinterpret the Word of God in a brand new way, to stand against all 2,000 years of Christian leaders.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, who are you going to go with?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: The postmodern relativist Matt Vines in his in his relativistic approach to reinterpreting scripture any way he wants to?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or are you going to go with the Word of God as the standard for truth?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And are you going to root yourself in that truth and let those roots go very, very deep?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about this with the men in our shepherd center.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very concerned about all of them too.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm concerned about every single young man growing up right now in the 21st century.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Every single one of them.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because already I'm seeing a lot of them flake out.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're flaking, they're flaking, they're flaking.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them, but a lot of them are.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of our young men will flake.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're postmodern relativists.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because they they just click, click, click on every new website and they take new opinions every 10 seconds.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then they go on to the next opinion.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next opinion.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like dust in the driveway.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're not like the oak trees.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're sending their roots down into scripture.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Way, way, way down into scripture, and believing those things and meditating on those things day and night.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it it is uh it's it's shocking, it's uh uh you know frightening for a sen in a sense because uh you take a look at these young men and these young women, and when they're taking these types of views, you wonder where we're going.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: You do.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Steve, there's something wrong with contemporary Christian music.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh guy named Steve Camp came out with a hundred and seven hundred and seven theses about what, thirteen years ago?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nineteen ninety-seven.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: A long time ago.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So seventeen years ago.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um and there's something very, very wrong with uh contemporary Christian music.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to get back to what guys like Keith Green and Steve Camp were saying.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's something very flaky about CCM.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not throwing the baby out with a bath water here.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying all CCM is bad.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now some people will go right to that point, but I don't think it's fair to do that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: We have to arrive at biblical conclusions.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Camp really worked hard to establish 107 theses about Christian music.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he he says here, he says, I wrote songs early on in my musical journey that neither represented good music for or precise theology.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: My motives were vitiated, my actions were not godly, my lips were unclean.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now he sent this to all of the Christian music industry, sent them to all the radio stations, sent it off to all the Christian artists, I think, yeah.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he was he was not received well.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, he wasn't played ever again on radio, or at least he for a long time.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: He says here, in the past several years, there has been a non-so-subtle drifting away from Christocentric music to an anthropocentric music that is a man-centered approach.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Contemporary Christian music originally began unashamedly declaring Jesus Christ as Lord.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Within a few years, his name was replaced by several generic titles, filtering out the name of God ultimately to the nonspecific cognomen.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he goes on and on and on.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: But he's got a lot of uh very good theses here, Steve, that I think really need to be emphasized.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do all to the glory of God.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: All our works, both musical and written, must produce a high view of God, with our chief aim being to glorify God, worship him forever.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: This means we are to represent God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So much of the Christian music industry, Steve, does not really focus in on the glory of God, and he makes that point very, very strongly.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I would say there's not a lot of fear of God in American uh Christian music today.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Christian music also, he says, originally called Jesus Music, once fearlessly saying clearly about the gospel.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now it yodels of a Christless, watered-down, Pablum-based, positive alternative, aura, fluff, cream of wheat, mush kind of syrupy, God is my girlfriend kind of thing.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty straightforward.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no wonder they didn't like him.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: No wonder they didn't like him.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the sound theology sung out of the beauty of holiness, but lacking in heartfelt worship to Christ leads to pride or self-glory and the chast chastisement of the father.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And how much pride, how much glory.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I interacted with a lot of the CCM guys back when I was in the CCM business doing um disc jockey work on the Central Coast in California.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I will tell you, there was a lot of divorce.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of hanky panky, there was a lot of shallowness.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: These guys were not the most mature Christians, if they were Christians at all.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: The people that I interacted with very sad, Steve.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very, very sad.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are these people the leaders?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking to myself, who are they leading?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is not good.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm looking at their personal lives and their their interactions with others.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Pride huge, pride huge, pride huge.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Huge.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: They love the accolades, they love the they just really warm up to all that pop pride that's just endemic in in the city of man and the way that the city of man operates with the star system.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: This really came in strong with the CCM people.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: They love the star system, they want the star system.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, not all of them, but this is what I saw as I interacted with many of these CCM stars.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and one of the things that I had read about as well during, you know, way back at this time, that it was easier to get in with Christian labels than it was with secular labels.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so a band would label themselves as Christian, they would bring it, you know, they would have some Pablum-based cream of wheat kind of Christian lyrics, and then they is if their music was any good according to the world, then they could get a Christian label, and that would be what would boost them into the famous labels, and they could get out of the Christian label into the secular labels and do what they really wanted to do.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And Steve, I have to tell you, I lost count on all the divorces that happened among CCM stars.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them, but I lost count because there were so many of them that got divorces.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: He says a powerful doctrine sung in glory to Christ with an impure life is noise to the ears of our holy God.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the obedience to the word of God are marks of the worthworthy walk of faith.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: However, when biblical standards are dishonored, unrepentant of sin persists, we must adhere to the instruction of the words, stop the music until the life is right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's powerful stuff.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Probably wasn't that popular.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, he only got one more album out, and he was a nobody a couple of years, year or two after publishing this article.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, the Keith Green also had something similar happen to him towards the end of his career before he lost his life in that plane wreck in the early 1980s.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: He he began to see the star system's no good.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: He began to address, you know, the audience with some hardcore hate.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: We got to repent of our sins, turn to Jesus Christ in true faith.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: We need to fear the true and living God.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: This kind of stuff was happening in those concerts.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he would not charge for the concerts, he wouldn't charge for the albums.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he he turned it towards ministry.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: He turned it away from business towards ministry because he said, if it's ministry, it's ministry.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a business, it's business.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's decide what we're doing here.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Keith Green, I think, was an excellent example of somebody who set a right trajectory in his music towards the end of his career.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Music and culture is all about trajectory.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about where we're headed.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Camp tried to hit a good direction.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Green tried to hand hit a good direction with his music.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, the business tends to move in the wrong direction.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I caution people about music and culture.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: What's the trajectory?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: What's the trajectory?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: What's the trajectory?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: The trajectory set by Jars of Clay, Amy Grant, and others, according to the recent articles we've read, are not good trajectories, friends.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Trajectory matters.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: The trajectory set by our modern system is not good, my friends.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I also deal with this somewhat in the last section of my book Apostate, available at our website, Kevinswanson.com.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Get my book Apostate.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Find out about how apostasy manifests itself in culture.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: In the last section of the book, you've got to awaken to what's happening, friends.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Are your children and your grandchildren apostatizing from the faith like a migrant or like jars of clay?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Dan Hasselty.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: This has been the production of the Generations Media Network.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: For more information, go to generations.orgslash media.