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More hydromorphone seizures · Kvetch & Release

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hey, we're back.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: John leakek here on AM eight hundred KLW. Hope you're
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: all doing well. It's eleven thirty three on this August
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: the twelfth, and one of the conversations that we have
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: here often on AM eight hundred CKLW. It's quite frankly
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  Speaker 2: a broader conversation not just provincially but nationally as well,
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  Speaker 2: regards safer supply, regards the opioid issue that we know
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  Speaker 2: about on our streets and the confluence between the two
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  Speaker 2: of them, and what does treatment look like, what does
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  Speaker 2: harm reduction look like? How do we deal with these
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  Speaker 2: very real issues of not just health but mental health
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: and addiction and substance abuse as well. And we keep
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  Speaker 2: learning more and more and more because more and more
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  Speaker 2: data keeps getting pried away, whether it be from government
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  Speaker 2: through freedom of information requests or requesting interviews or from
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  Speaker 2: police for various reasons along the same line. But we
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  Speaker 2: keep finding out that it seems like there's more and
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  Speaker 2: more of diversion of safer supply, or at least of
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  Speaker 2: the point that we're now being informed of it and
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  Speaker 2: being made aware of it. One person who has been
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  Speaker 2: covering this, who has been following this who has been
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  Speaker 2: advocating on this issue is the executive director of the
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  Speaker 2: Center for Responsible Drug Policy, Jenning me. Right now is
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  Speaker 2: Adam Zo. Hey, Adam, how you doing.
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  Speaker 1: I'm good, good morning, Thanks for having me on the show.
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  Speaker 2: Gun good morning, Thanks so much for joining us here.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Pretty controversial. I know you don't write your headlines, but
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: a controversial headline if you will. For your most recent
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  Speaker 2: column with the National Post almost as good as giving
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: drug users cash, report slams Safer Supply of free opioids.
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  Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about this report, Adam.
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  Speaker 1: Well, first, for contact, so Safe Supply as a program
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  Speaker 1: that gives out free pharmaceutical alternatives to potentially change the
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  Speaker 1: listed substances. So let's say, for example, your addicted defensionals
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: and you buy it on the stream with spends the dazepines.
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  Speaker 1: It could be it could have unpredictable dosing, it could
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  Speaker 1: kill you. So the federal government basically says, if we
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  Speaker 1: give you free drugs instead that like pharmasco opia. So
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  Speaker 1: for example, like hydromorphone, which is basically a pharmaceutical heroin,
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  Speaker 1: So that'll keep you safer. But there's been mass reports
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  Speaker 1: of diversions and it turns out that BC's top doctor
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  Speaker 1: commissioned a report last autumn from an American drug policy
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  Speaker 1: expert named Jonathan Culkins to do an economic analysis of
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  Speaker 1: safer supply and basically see, from his standpoint, would diversion
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  Speaker 1: be likely, and he concluded that it was more or
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  Speaker 1: less inevitable in the current system that we have.
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  Speaker 2: Well that, I mean, if you're giving people something for
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  Speaker 2: free that there is a value two, it doesn't seem
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  Speaker 2: like I'm making a large jump logically that oh maybe
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  Speaker 2: it could be bartered, traded, used for another purpose. And
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  Speaker 2: we've spoken before here on this show, Adam, about how,
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  Speaker 2: quite frankly, what is being provided in safer supply just
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: it's not quite frank strong enough for what people want. Right.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, right, because that's a little so strong.
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  Speaker 1: If you give someone a bottle of hydromorphone, even maximum
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  Speaker 1: doses are not going to get them high. So they
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  Speaker 1: do the logical thing here, they sell it on the
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  Speaker 1: street to make money to buy their drug a choice,
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  Speaker 1: which is what's the sentinal. So we're subsidizing the fensible market,
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  Speaker 1: we're not mitigating it. And so Calkin's the report is
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  Speaker 1: just a lot of common sense, you know. He basically says,
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  Speaker 1: if you're giving out something of value for free or
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  Speaker 1: almost no cost, then you're going to attract profit. Heers.
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  Speaker 1: He describes the different ways that this fraud can occur,
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  Speaker 1: for example, street level drug dealers fraudulently enrolling themselves in
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  Speaker 1: low barrier safe supply programs to acquire drugs to resell
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  Speaker 1: on the black market, or paying other drug users to
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: do the same thing. He also mentioned that if the
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: government subsidizes opioids in one jurisdiction through safe supply, then
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  Speaker 1: that creates strong financial incentives for smugglers to acquire safe
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  Speaker 1: supply where it's abundance of cheap and resell it at
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  Speaker 1: a profit where there is no safe supplier, where safe
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  Speaker 1: supplies more stringent. So basically we can expect national or
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  Speaker 1: international trafficking, which aligns perfectly with what I've been reporting.
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  Speaker 1: He also said that some drug dealers may extend their
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  Speaker 1: fencebal supply by mixing in safe supply hydro morphone, therefore
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  Speaker 1: increasing their profits, or they may for example, mix they
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  Speaker 1: may for example like sell counterfeit safe supply and profit
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  Speaker 1: off the fact that people may perceive this drug as
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  Speaker 1: being safer than it is.
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  Speaker 2: Which is of course a problem. And you know, reading
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  Speaker 2: through your column here, Adam, that one paragraph really hits home.
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  Speaker 2: Safer supply programs have increased the total pharmaceutical opioid supply
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  Speaker 2: in BC by almost one third. I mean, that's staggering.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So we've been trying to get the exact numbers
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  Speaker 1: on how much safe supply hydro morphone and being prescribed
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  Speaker 1: for over a year. In fact, I spoke with a
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  Speaker 1: Swedish drug policy expert earlier in the winter slash spring,
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  Speaker 1: and he said that he'd ask the BC government for
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  Speaker 1: specific figures and they'd basically stonewall taps and so it
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: was a big matter of speculation how many opiods are
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  Speaker 1: we giving out. Colton's got access to this data from
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  Speaker 1: the provincial government. He found out that in the twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty to twenty twenty three fiscal year, and Safer Supply
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  Speaker 1: programs distributed eighty eight dot eight milligrams sorry, million milligrams
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  Speaker 1: of hydromorphones. So that's over eleven million tablets. That's staggering.
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  Speaker 1: And this is this tiny population about four three hundred
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  Speaker 1: drug users. So those four thousand, three hundred drug users
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  Speaker 1: got so many opioids. So yeah, they expanded the provincial
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  Speaker 1: supply of pharmacyal opioids by thirty percent, which is insane.
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  Speaker 2: I know you're not a health expert by any means,
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  Speaker 2: but I guess I would ask from your perspective, like,
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  Speaker 2: is the is the program working at least for the
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  Speaker 2: people who are accessing this from how you see it,
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  Speaker 2: because I mean, you're obviously not writing this as a
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  Speaker 2: flowering commentary. I can only imagine based on what we've
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  Speaker 2: been seeing here, the policymakers have to I think that
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  Speaker 2: they're in the right here.
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  Speaker 1: Right, they think that they're saving lives, but they're not.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm not a health policy expert, but I work
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  Speaker 1: closely with people who are. I work closely with the
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  Speaker 1: diction positions who are far more qualified than I am
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  Speaker 1: to opine on this. And for example, we assess the
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  Speaker 1: major study that was released in January of this year
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  Speaker 1: which claimed that safe supplies saved lives, but we realize
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  Speaker 1: that the researchers misrepresented the data, and when you fully
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  Speaker 1: factored out the confounding variables, it turns out that safe
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  Speaker 1: supply was associated with no reductions, no statistically significant reduction immortality.
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  Speaker 1: So this large study suggests that safe supply is not
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  Speaker 1: saving lives. But for some reason, our political experts and
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  Speaker 1: top level public health bureaucrats are not listening.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how this is all going to unfold.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's obviously fodder for opposition parties here, because
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  Speaker 2: when you hear about this diversion and these numbers, they're
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  Speaker 2: as big as they are. I don't care if you're
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  Speaker 2: on the side where you're advocating for this, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: or against it. These are data points than all that
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  Speaker 2: we can do is take them for what they are,
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  Speaker 2: and it's obviously not the intended outcome of this program
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  Speaker 2: to see this diversion. But I know, Adam, you're doing
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of a Maya kulpa here when it
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: comes to writing articles. Gosh, there's a reason why I
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: got out of the print side of things and went
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: into broadcast. It's a lot easier to just flap my
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  Speaker 2: lips and talk, quite frankly, than putting pen to paper.
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  Speaker 2: But you've received a little bit of criticism over this
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  Speaker 2: article in regards to this report and where it was
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  Speaker 2: placed on the web. I know that initially you said
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  Speaker 2: that it wasn't available on the government's website, I believe, Yeah, I.
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  Speaker 1: Made an error in my reporting, unfortunately, So I was
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: initially under the impression that the provincial government did not
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  Speaker 1: make this report available on their website. Unfortunately I missed it.
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  Speaker 1: And there are a few different reasons for that. It's complicated.
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  Speaker 1: But we quickly issued a correction after about three or
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  Speaker 1: four hours of the article being out, and we did
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  Speaker 1: correct it for print. So that's all good. Now. It's
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: a bit of Eventually the report wasn't included in some
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: important bibliography and a few other things say happened, but
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  Speaker 1: you fixed it.
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  Speaker 2: That sounds like maybe a mistake then on both sides.
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  Speaker 2: But let's adam, you and I both know right when
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  Speaker 2: trying to pry information out of a government or navigate
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  Speaker 2: through their websites, they could go and make things easy
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  Speaker 2: to find, or they can go and not make them
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  Speaker 2: easy to find. It sounds to me like this was
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  Speaker 2: a bit of an issue of like, did they go
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  Speaker 2: out of their way to make this as easy as
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  Speaker 2: possible to find?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I would argue that they buried it, but not
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  Speaker 1: in the way that I initially reported it. So they
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  Speaker 1: released this report at the exact same day that they
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  Speaker 1: released a very large report arguing for the criminalization decriminalization
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  Speaker 1: of all drugs. So DC top doctor Don Bonnie Henry
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  Speaker 1: with these reports saying that we should egalize all drugs, fens, nol, meth, whatever,
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  Speaker 1: and that took up all of the airspace and the conversation.
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  Speaker 1: And then you know, attached as a small appendix was
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  Speaker 1: this you know, big report that everyone had been speculating
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  Speaker 1: about for months, but it got no attention. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't notice that no one in my networks really
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  Speaker 1: noticed it, which is very unusual. So it seems like
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  Speaker 1: the BC government went out of their way to downplay this,
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  Speaker 1: just not to the extent that I initially thought.
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  Speaker 2: So they did the equivalent of a Friday afternoon news
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  Speaker 2: dump exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Worse.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, I mean, listen, governments are going to do what
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  Speaker 2: governments are going to do, Adam, listen, last question for
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  Speaker 2: you on this one here, because obviously, like this is
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: all very contentious when we talk about this anytime I
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: bring you on, I shudder to think of what my
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: direct messages are going to be like on Twitter, because
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  Speaker 2: you've got yourself, quite frankly, a dedicated following of people
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  Speaker 2: who you know, don't like you, quite frankly, and they're
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: a lot louder than those who do like you. Your detractors, though,
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  Speaker 2: are very vocal. I know, I don't think that you're,
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  Speaker 2: you know, an evil right wing conservative who says that
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  Speaker 2: drug users should all die and we should take away
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  Speaker 2: treatment for them in every way whatsoever. I mean, like,
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  Speaker 2: what what is your ideal outcome from this scenario if
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  Speaker 2: you were given fifteen seconds and you were in control
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  Speaker 2: of majority government.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, you can have a supply in responsible way,
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  Speaker 1: as long as you have witness consumption, you have a
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  Speaker 1: recovery oriented goal. Don't get people opois indefinitely that locks
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  Speaker 1: that entrenches their addiction and prevent from taking treatments. Make
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  Speaker 1: it supervised, make it more regulated.
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  Speaker 2: You are a master of the elevator pitch Adam, Hey,
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  Speaker 2: thank you so much. I always appreciate chatting with you. Again,
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  Speaker 2: I'll always preface it like this. We don't have to
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  Speaker 2: agree on every issue whatsoever, but I love the fact
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: that you and I are able to just dish it
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: out on air in front of the audience of everyone
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  Speaker 2: that we have here on the Bell Media Network, and
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  Speaker 2: it's always a pleasure. Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks likewise, it's great to have you kind of conversation.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Adam Zevo is the executive director of the Center
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: for Responsible Drug Policy. You can read this article in
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the National Post. Check out their website titled almost as
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Good as Giving drug Users Cash? Report slams safer supply
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: of free opioids. You're listening to AM eight hundred CKLW.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I'm John Ludkey. It's just about eleven forty four. We're
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: going to take a break right now, but when we
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: get back on the other side, I am so excited.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I've got a really good friend of mine, old friend
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: of mine now. Quite frankly, it's amazing how you're stack up.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: That's the way things go right. Four years of COVID
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: it makes that happen. He just received a longtime Volunteer
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: award from the Run for Rocky. Ralph Frack is someone
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: who is uh You'll see you see him in media often.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: He's on CTV all the time. He's been on AM
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: eight hundred before