Latest / How to Faith a Life Podcast with Faith Womack / This Theologian Made Me So Mad... in a good way. Interviewing Dr. Kelly Kapic on "You're Only Human"

Transcript

This Theologian Made Me So Mad... in a good way. Interviewing Dr. Kelly Kapic on "You're Only Human" · How to Faith a Life Podcast with Faith Womack

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you're listening to the How to Faith a Life podcast, where we wrestle with questions on how to live a life of faith, from everything from books to Bible studies, even Bible study tips.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is your place to wrestle with the hard questions and dive deep into what scripture really says for the Christian walk.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you've subscribed to this podcast and your favorite podcast streaming services.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Review this podcast so other people can find it and share with other believers who want to ask the hard questions.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, with all that said, let's begin.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hi friends, welcome back to the How to Faith a Life podcast.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're here with a very special guest.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly Kapik is a professor of theological studies at Covenant College, my alma mater.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he um taught some of Joe and I's favorite classes like Christology and Doctrine.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: He's married to his beautiful wife, Tabitha, and they have two nearly grown, fully adult children.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: He went to Wheaton.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: He went to Wheaton.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: He got his MDiv from RTS, Reformed Theological Seminary, and he got his PhD from King's College London and has written numerous books like A Little Book for New Theologians, which I have recommended to you guys if you're starting out in theology.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then most recently, Your Only Human, How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News, which I read.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: You guys saw me review and be so convicted by this book.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we I really wanted to kind of pick his ears about this book today.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um it wrecked my world, and I've not stopped thinking about it since.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been continually convicting for me.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most people don't get to meet their real life superheroes, but I had the privilege of studying underneath him for four years.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome, Dr.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Kapik.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you're watching this on YouTube, give him like a welcome in the comments.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're just so happy to have you here.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is so fun, Faith.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh I love what you're doing, and this is really great to be almost in the flesh, right?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I miss seeing you and Joe around.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this is really, really fun.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that people get to learn from you.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I need to constantly be like, uh, Mr.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Kapik.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's Kelly.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're a graduate.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Those are old school.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Kelly, tell us about your art behind your only human.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I can't imagine it not being impacted by being around students all the time and seeing them rush from class to class.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, for real.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean, this is it's really not, I wouldn't say this about most of my books, but this book, it's not an overstatement to say I've been really thinking about for 20 years.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and students are a big part of that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the in the opening chapter, you know, one of the illustrations was thinking about college students and high school students and just their day, you know, which often starts they leave home at 7:30 in the morning, they're in school till like 3:30 in high school, then they're off, they change and do an extracurricular till like six, then they run home and eat some food and then do homework till 11 or what and it's interesting, just that story realizing in high school and then college is as you know, just like that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've catechized, we've shaped people to think that they need to be exhausted all the time.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so we really do, um, even since you were in college, the the increase in um mental health challenges and COVID obviously plays into a lot of stuff, but without doubt, just kind of this hectic pace and endless demands plays into it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, the college students really are have been great dialogue partners.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was almost, I mean, to be honest, like as a previous student, still kind of in covenant circles, it's easy to feel like I gotta stay on top of things and constantly be reading what my professors put out.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And to basically, if I'm being honest, pick up your book for mostly that reason, like to keep up with the Joneses and to read the next big hot take that the Gospel Coalition's talking about and that covenant's talking about, and then to read it and be like so convicted.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I remember very vividly sitting in my boys' bedroom, and I usually like rock in the rocking chair waiting for them to fall asleep.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reading this book, and I'm starting to get mad at you, like calling me out.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I did not expect this to be that good.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't even think about it without being instantly convicted about the ways that I'm constantly in rush.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just a testimony to that would be right before we turn on the recording and you stop and pray and slow down.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I told you, you know, I always feel like I'm on borrowed time.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I get to pick your brain on this.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know you have a busy day, and we gotta rush, and there's this anxiety, and there's this we have to get into, I guess, like a robot mode instead of be human to human.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that naturally like devalues the whole conversation if we're rushing and um forcing this productivity out of, hey, let's just touch heart to heart on this book and how much it impacted us.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So well, it's funny because I I wish I could say, gosh, Faith, I can't relate, but I'm really I'll pray for you.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: The reason I mean, this this comes out of my own personal experience, like my huge struggle.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like for the longest time, and this is still this is still a challenge, but so often, you know, I and I talk about this publicly, but you know, it's kind of for me, maybe for other people it's a different time of day, but for me, it's often the end of day, I put my head on the pillow at night, things finally get quiet and I slow down, and I'm just amazed at how often just a wave of shame and guilt comes and rushes over me.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you know, as a theologian, it's you know, like you, if as I'm thinking about my day, I think about ways I've been, you know, unkind and cruel or thought things or said things or done things that are a problem.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to repent and and really just soak in God's love.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it took a long time to really examine and go, wow, so often that wave of guilt and shame when my day is at an end, what it is so often related to is not those things, although I do sin every day, but it is often this voice saying, Kelly, why didn't you do more today?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't you get more done?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, that that that has just been such a huge struggle.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really interested in thinking, why is it that we've confused sin and this fancy word finitude?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it we've confused sin and our limits?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we can't do everything.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Should we do everything?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: How much you know, as Christians, are we just supposed to go to bed every night just feeling bad that we didn't pray longer, read more, spend more time with our kids, do better work?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that really what we're supposed to do every day?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's me working through it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think you do a really good job.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you have a title or a chapter titled, Why doesn't God just instantly what is it?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Why doesn't God just instantly change me?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of my audience struggles with that because it's so easy for us to, like, even just baby Christians, to immediately just be like, I'm not doing this right, I'm not doing that right, you're not doing this right, you're not doing that right.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And make it workspace, make it all about performance and being the most and doing the most.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's probably one of the most highly requested questions that I get is like, how do you fit it all into your day?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, baby dog paddling, just making it through the day, you know.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, please don't live like me, you know.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I do it's fascinating where it was an area where I found as I was wrestling through this, I found it surprising that the Christian or the church's response to this the question your your audience is asking, like, how do I do it?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Our response actually is almost no different than the secular worlds.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: It basically, in Christian circles, we just baptize it, we give time management solutions.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, well, here are the steps, be more efficient, do this, do that.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Some of that's helpful, but actually, that's not the church's response, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: What the church's response is you're really a human creature.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: God put you in a time and a place and in a real physical body.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And anyways, it and it relates to the question, why doesn't God instantly change me?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Those are really good.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're dealing with an eating disorder, if you're dealing with an addiction, a porn porn, you know, whatever the various kinds of things and obviously endless things, I'm not trying to just compare those two or anything.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It as Christians, we you know, I long not to gossip, I long not to slander, I long, you know.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, God doesn't want me slandering.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something or manipulation, whatever it is.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: So does that mean that the fact that I still struggled that every day God's just like by noon, he's like, Well, Kelly sucks again, you know, like and he's waiting for the next day for him to, you know, let's like is his mercies are new every morning, and then by eight in the morning, I he's like, Well, we'll wait till tomorrow, and it's a new no, no, no.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I really do think a really rich view of creation where God creates day after day after day, whether each day is a 24-hour period or millions of years, in this way is irrelevant because it's just it shows God values process.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so the spirit who worked in creation over time and brought order out of chaos is the very spirit who works in our life over our life, and God's not panicked by the process.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people like instantly, I think, you know, I don't like I want to rest, but I don't want to give myself a license to sin in finitude as an excuse.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any practical tips or guidance as you've worked through this?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's where I constantly find myself getting stuck.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um one of the best practical pieces of advice I've learned and would give is I don't trust myself.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um often because I'm too hard on myself.
• 9:38
  unknown: Yeah.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And normally I'm too hard on myself for exactly what you said, because we're all worried we're lazy, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think it's interesting.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to think of there are lazy people and there are overwork people.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's way more complicated than that, isn't it?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where a lot of us who probably overwork, the flip side is that's why we can we can go to extremes, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because we'll overwork, next thing you know, you're on a Netflix binge for six hours or whatever because you're just so worn out, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it becomes this this kind of extreme.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, all of that to say, my practical advice is I really need others to speak into this, you know.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as a married person, my my spouse, Tabitha, and and I have close friends, and I've just learned to say, Well, here's what's going on.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because, well, the silly example I often give, but it's actually true.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: It just happened again recently.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it'll be night and I'm working on my computer, and Tabitha will come out.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Are you working right now?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Well, yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what are you doing?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she'll literally say, like, go turn on ESPN.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you need to do.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're not allowed to work anymore.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing because when she says it, it's like, yes, right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if I would have gone into the mirror 10 minutes earlier and looked at myself and said, Kelly, you've worked really hard today.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to stop, you know, set that down, go do something else, or whatever.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you lazy, you know.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, the short answer is I really think we need community.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you're single, if you're whatever, we need other people.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they'll tell you, actually, no, I think you need to be more engaged.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think you need to work a little bit harder.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they're gonna say, No, you're crazy.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Stop, you know, spend some time with others, do this or that, or you're spending too much time on church stuff.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: You need to not feel so guilty, pull back.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy for me to hear about those conversations between you two because you two are people that I so highly admire.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, y'all both written books and done so many different things.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: You travel every summer, and I'm like a stalker who her beautiful Instagram pictures, and like, y'all are just so cool, you know.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in this, like, um, I don't know, I don't know if microcosm is like the right word, but like Covenant is such an amazing college.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: But there's like this community of people that are all doing crazy cool, really good things.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And students come through in like four years and it totally changes their life.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you as a professor, you're there in the thick of it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure just being there, you easily can get called to things that you're not actually called to do, and kind of expected to do things that you're not called to do.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do you discern when to say no, like on big projects, books, or whatever?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Super hard.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's part of why I feel guilty all the time.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think a lot of your listeners can relate to this, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: You think about the the it's it is kind of funny.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: You think you think about if you're married, your spouse, and if you have children, your children, and then if you work with others who you're working with, and then you think about your house, like physically, what's going on, and are you keeping up with your house, and then are you keeping up with physical exercise?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and it goes area to area, and you're kind of thinking, like, how many of us, when is the last per time you met someone who's just like, I'm just crushing it, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just crushing it, I'm just doing great in all of these areas.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we I hate those people, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it is funny you mentioned that I'm not on Instagram and Facebook, but it was like that can present such a false image, right?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Where it I there was this um I was talking to a pastor friend because I felt like I let some people down, and he sent me this article, and the first line of it was or first second line was like the pastorate is learning to let people down at an acceptable rate.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: To let people down at an acceptable rate.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, that is exactly right, actually.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and and part of what I do is I travel around and I talk with a lot of pastors, and and when they're alone, I mean, they're just dying.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: But but I also talk to a lot of parents, I talk to a a lot of um moms with young kids, and they just feel worn out, and and uh you could argue parenting is maybe that's actually even better.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Parenting is learning to let down your children at an acceptable rate, you know.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's beautiful, that's what it is, and because we're not Messiah, we're not God, and we apologize to our kids, we act, you know.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways, there's something really beautiful in that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's something, yeah, there's something really great.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is it is a a daily and weekly decision of what you say no to.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that's where it's hard when you move from thinking, oh, I just need to say no to the bad things, to discovering there are beautiful opportunities.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how many people reach out to you, Faith?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now you've got this thing going, you and Joe ministry, like you could be busy constantly, and not for bad things, like really God-honoring things, and it takes so much maturity and just faith to believe that God says, Here's a really good thing, and I don't need you to do it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna, you know, you have to believe in the body of Christ, and it takes the whole church.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we say all of that, but it's hard to believe.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's email.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: What have you found?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: What what are what are your secrets as you're navigating this stuff?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am failing every moment, every hour.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I again like really does feel like I'm just barely keeping my head above water.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I have an open hour or two, I don't know if you do this, but I just take on things like, oh, you know, it's homecoming weekend, let me do whatever for the school.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, no, sit back and read for pleasure, you know, or whatever it is.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: It can be easy for me to find my value and what I'm accomplishing and checking off of my to-do list rather than what was literally declared as my value on the cross.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, literally, so then I'm sitting there repenting all the time, and then there's that shame and guilt, like you talked about.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: For me, though, it doesn't hit at the evening, it hits first thing in the morning.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I jump out of bed and I'm like, I need to already be doing this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, this.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's funny because it's I I and I can relate to that, and that's that's very interesting.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um this sounds ridiculous at first.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think, because mo uh, you know, if you ask most of us, do you pray as much as you think you should?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: None of I mean, when's the last person everyone's like, oh yeah, I'm crushing prayer, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: But interestingly enough, I think part of it is we don't think prayer is actually doing anything.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: None of us want to say that, but it's it is actually inefficient, it is a waste of our time.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we have been so shaped to value efficiency, and then we've kind of Christianized it.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: One of the least efficient things you can do is pray.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that feels like a waste, first of all.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So actually sometimes I can tell when things are going poorly or or well, when I and this is what sounds ridiculous at first, but when I don't feel guilty for praying longer.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds like, oh, you're trying to be super spiritual.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I never feel that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, it is you do kind of feel it without realizing it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons we don't pray is like I don't have time.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm trying to translate for people because none of us want to say it out loud because it's so bad.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But let's be honest, what we're it's not doing anything, is what we really believe.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's inefficient, it's not valuable.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm not trying to make people feel guilty and like you've got to spend a ton of time just quietly in prayer, but it's it for me, it becomes a test case.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, like if I'm having time to go for a walk or a run, that tends to be a sign that I'm gonna be in a better space, and I have to fight for it like crazy because it feels like a waste, it feels luxurious.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But boy, my communion with God is so much more intimate when I'm doing that, and I'm able to be present with people way more when I take times like that.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so hard.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Everything in us calls against it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: You just like I'm gonna have to like quote this podcast for years on end now.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you need to go watch my podcast with Dr.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly Cavic.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: You do feel like there's an influence then of social media into these lies of Christian culture of do more and be more and everything.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that, but I can't put words to it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's there is, I mean, as you I'm sure know, there's just increasing evidence of um all kinds of issues associated with mental or with social media and mental health.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and part of it is still pretty early on, to be honest, but more and more studies are saying it's not just correlation, it's causation, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, for example, the data on particularly young teenage girls are some of the worst.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I mean there's just growing data in terms of suicidal ideation increases and and stuff like that, but it's affects it affects young men too.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and people tend to think about the pornography stuff, that's true, but it's way more than that.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so mental health stuff.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think one of the most powerful things that happens is is starting to help people put down phones and stuff.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I was just reading about um I was corresponding with some colleagues about this because I think it was University of Pennsylvania, I'm not Christian, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: But they they do this thing, a big group of them.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's with a class, and it's like a they do a it's like a month with no social media and a like a day of silence, a couple things, and everyone loves it, it's pretty transformative.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I've taught a class on Christian spirituality, I make them go three days normally it if it's stateside um of silence, and it's it's wild, and to put down phones, it's so scary at first, actually.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like yeah, I was gonna say, have you have ever thought about and and you know explored the idea of periods of silence in a day or in a week?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what does that look like?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I I find it scary.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: If I just try and not listen to something while I'm doing the dishes, and my mind just I need to like just calm myself with some music or a podcast or whatever, and I feel productive because I'm conquering a podcast or whatever.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be so hard to just sit there in my thoughts.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so unnatural.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have been watching the show Alone.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know that show?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't no, not yet.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: They go out into nature and they just try and survive as long as possible, and the winner walks away with a bunch of money, and so they have to find their own food and make their own shelter, and that is like the first thing that everybody talks about is not the hunger, but just being by themselves and their thoughts in like every single season, every single participant talks about their family and they're realizing how important their family is and that they need to be more present with their family.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's really so convicting.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, I think I I sorry, you go ahead.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, you go ahead.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: You definitely go ahead.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I it it is interesting because for many of us, I do think in the silence, almost immediately those accusatory voices of various forms and shapes just show up.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that, and this includes me, we want to distract.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think there's totally appropriate.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: There are times to put on podcasts, put on music, whatever like too much silence actually can be an issue.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But kind of the history of Christian spirituality says actually it takes courage to let those voices speak and keep at it because there is a sense in which you can exhaust those voices and then you can actually start to hear God.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or it is a way of like as the voices come, you just kind of a simple rema, you know, there is no remind yourself of a simple verse, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let the accusations come, right?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had a friend who um was a professional theologian in his forties, single guy, and he just always wonderful guy, but always really struggled with intense forms of this kind of thing of guilt and shame.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it really took developing a practice where he would just sit down on the floor for like 25 minutes every day, and all he would do is just sit there and just let all the voices come, and then normally take one passage and just keep reminding himself of God's goodness.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And over time it was transformative for him.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: But rather than trying to run from the voices, ignore them, trying to answer them, just let the Christ because often those voices have some truth to them, right?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: The evil one often does that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that there's no truth to what those voices say, but it's not the truth of who we are in Christ.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was super convict.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I um I love sewing, and I have not sewn in a while because the last couple times I sat down behind my sewing machine, it's too loud to listen to headphones, you know.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you just stuck there with your thoughts.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been actually actively avoiding sewing in my sewing projects because I can't I don't want to bring myself to that uncomfortable position.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you just made so many connections for me of how it could be a spiritual exercise and have a verse taped to my sewing machine.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love the sewing.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's interesting you say that because I think that is a beautiful thing.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And to do it guilt-free without just like to be there.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was speaking at a men's retreat, actually in Texas where you were, and one of the things that became apparent because this was actually a retreat, and they went somewhere, we were all somewhere, a couple hundred guys, and during breaks, a bunch, just so many of them love to fish.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not a huge fisherman, I'm you know, I fish, but I'm I'm not really a big but I I noticed they'd all go, and even when they were with others, they just kind of sit there.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they talk, but lots of times they're just by themselves, and there's quiet, and it made me really appreciate the power of fishing for men, and it does feel extravagant and a waste.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought for many men, this is a way of keeping their sanity.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there is something I'm not against sports and football, I love football myself, but when a guy goes fishing, or when a person doesn't have to be a man, when a person goes fishing, they're often just quiet, they're not on their phone.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I like I you almost never see a fisherman looking at their phone, and I think, oh, this reconnects them with nature, and if they're a Christian with God, it's like sewing, you know, and some of those things.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's there's something about how those practices reaffirm our humanity, and we need that in this rush of an age.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you yeah, oh, you just put some more words.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in a process of, you know, here online I'm sharing a lot of like how to Bible study, and I do that a lot through Bible study tips, like how to take notes in your Bible and get creative.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm constantly walking that fine line of like, you're not just making art in your Bible, like you're studying the Bible.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I've like maybe at times even over-emphasized.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to just be creative, we want to be like taking valuable notes from commentaries or whatever.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yet at the same time, through the last like six months, I did this big long memorizing a Bible verse for every day for a hundred days.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I got creative with those um little note cards and used scrap of paper and stickers and stamps and all the things, and it really kind of opened my eyes to how meditative or reflective that kind of process can be, and actually use earthly things like creativity to draw you into spiritual practices.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So some days I didn't want to memorize a new verse, but I did want to make a card, you know?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I thought that's cool.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've been getting that way with my prayer journal and getting a lot more scrappy to kind of gather my thoughts before talking to the Lord.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I do it online, I feel the need to justify it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I feel the need to explain to people why I'm doing it and why it's valuable instead of just do it, you know?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it's a good idea.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: That it reminds me early desert fathers and mothers who spent tons of time in silence, that kind of thing.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: But they often would learn scripture or pray as they would make baskets.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because they often had to make a little bit of money, but it was part of what they loved about it was there's something physical in it, there's something slow, creative, that's quite spiritual, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all of life is spiritual, and that just reconnects you.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think some of these practices will help you.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're an accountant, if you're a school teacher, spending time walking with God, doing knitting, whatever, actually can reaffirm your humanity, help you learn to be present with God, which will actually help you in the classroom, be present with the students or present in the law firm or whatever.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they it it all of life is spiritual, so you need small practices of life to help you recognize how all of life is spiritual, not just your quiet time.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wait.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: That was so good.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, kind.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I need to like snap that and put that everywhere and tattoo it across my forehead.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, this has been something that I've been slowly learning this year and been really convicted of because for so long you just view those things as distractions rather than as supports in your spiritual walk.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, as expressions of your yeah, very good.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Expressions of your spirituality.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not anti-spiritual, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting, you might also, even in this, Mother Teresa once said that prayer begins when you stop speaking.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's really something profound in what she's saying, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like good friends when you're really good friends, you're comfortable being together and being silent.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And but you actually have to be really good friends to be like that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is a space where you get with God where it's like, no, He this is prayer in a sense, even when you're not talking the whole time.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you could be you could be knitting, not like consciously thinking the whole time of people or what events, and it is prayerful.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's just something about that.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you also wrote Embodied Hope, and it's a theological meditation on pain and suffering.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Did that book impact or feed into your you ultimately writing your only human?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: The How to Fake a Life podcast is sponsored by Mr.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Penn.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Mr.
• 28:46
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• 28:50
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• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: They even make the gel highlighters, which are very fun.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like highlighting your Bible with lipstick, which sounds unpleasant, but it's actually the funnest thing ever.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's beautiful neon highlighting.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just like looked so cool.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's very fun.
• 29:11
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• 29:15
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• 29:20
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• 29:21
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• 29:23
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• 29:26
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• 29:30
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• 29:38
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• 29:39
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• 29:40
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• 29:43
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• 29:45
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• 29:45
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• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much to Mr.
• 29:50
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• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get back to the conversation.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now you also wrote Embodied Hope, and it's a theological meditation on pain and suffering.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Did that book impact or feed into your you ultimately writing Your Only Human?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, big time.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um the short version for for listeners is uh my wife and I got married in 1993, um, to celebrated 30 years.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we were married nine years before we had kids, and then uh in 2008, my wife got cancer.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a year later she was declared cancer free, but then a year later, basically, this is a long story short, she she developed really severe chronic pain and fatigue.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And since 2010 to this day, there's never been literally never been a day without pain and fatigue.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: It goes up and down, but it's always there.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that book, Embodied Hope, is really with her encouragement after a number of years to try and meet try and think through it theologically and pastorally.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it really was about learning to lament and to be honest about the brokenness.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like Christians are plastic too often and like everything's good, upwards and onwards, God's gonna fix it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, God doesn't always fix it.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're your your hand your arm is amputated and it's not growing back, and you've got chronic pain, and it's been over a decade and it's not going away.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what does that look like?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, really learning lament, and what's interesting about lament is lament in order to lament, which 40% of the psalms are made up of laments, honest questions like why God, where have you been?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: In order to lament, interestingly enough, you're assuming there's something to lament.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: It assumes there's a good world, that there's a good God.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is right to say this isn't good.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's not betraying God, you're actually speaking truthfully about the world.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, so it was working through that reality of pain and suffering that I finally then felt like I could talk about the goodness of being a human creature.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I have had readers say, It's interesting, I read Embodied Hope, and then I read You're Only Human, and now I think you could read them in the opposite order.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: You could read about the goodness of being a human and then about the brokenness and pain.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyways, they do go together for sure.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's easy for us to get stuck in our pain and angry at our humanness, and then we never get to the point where you've gotten what pushed you to ask the hard questions and still run to the Lord with those hard questions?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean modern atheism really kind of stops with the questions and condemns God's with our question, right?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or condemns God with our questions.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what kind of pushed you to get uncomfortable with God and ask those hard questions?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Boldly, I guess.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a it's a great question.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's all kinds of answers I'd actually like to give.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the things that pushed me is my wife is wonderful, and she is not trite, she's not cheap, and she does not she does not like cheap answers and easy solutions.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she does not like cliche, and um, so that that really helps.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting you bring up the atheism stuff.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Part of what I also discovered, and this is a longer conversation, but it's you're right, atheists it kind of critiques as hey, if there's really a good God and God is in control, how do these evil things happen?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Those are those are actually fine questions, but it Christians forget you can ask questions too, and you can ask, like, well, how do you know this is evil?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know why I think it's evil, I know why I think this is a terrible thing that's happening, but that's because I believe in a good God and a good world and this goes against it.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: But whether it's the brokenness of our bodies or just mistreatment of women or children, or you name it, I know why these things are wicked.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't have God, you actually don't have an ability.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can say, Well, I think it's wrong, but that's fine.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way you know people in Afghanistan treat women is wrong, that's fine, but why?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're an American?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Are you really that arrogant?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just that?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it can't be those things.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another conversation, but um, part of it just is uh is thinking through it in a Christian way.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the the last thing I'll say on that, part of what was so helpful for me in my research for that was only after the Enlightenment really did people, when they're dealing with pain and suffering, have these questions like, What kind of God is this?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, when you look at the ancient church, they knew how screwed up things were and how hard they were, they weren't dumb.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, what interested me was the ancient church, the way they dealt with pain and suffering, was not by philosophical questions but by addressing it.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when you saw that there are children on the ash heap and abandoned the trash, you don't just raise questions about is there a God, you go and save the child.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: But also when there's brokenness and persecution and uh people are dying, you actually lament.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, what I loved about what I learned from the ancient church in the first five centuries is rather than wrestling through these things just intellectually, they dealt with them through practices like prayer, like lament, like actions of justice, like speaking out against injustice.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's very different than just debating philosophically about these things.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's so good.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: What was that class that you were offering?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I should have asked Joe about this before today, but you offered a class, I don't know if you still are, but it was something and suffering.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Joe took the very first thing.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, faith and suffering.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Faith and suffering.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you had like this workbook or something that you had them go through.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's all coming back to me.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so helpful for Joe.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And he would come back, and I think at that time we were uh dating or engaged, and he was telling me all about this class I should have taken.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if he was going through it when because the very first time I taught Faith and Suffering, I was writing Embodied Hope, and I had them read like the first eight chapters in draft form.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that might have been what he was in.
• 36:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was so I'm sure whatever's good in the book, thank Joe for it.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely all the editorial feedback, I'm sure.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of books and these books kind of connecting and feeding off of each other, are you working on anything right now?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are we allowed to ask you this?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can ask.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, it's interesting.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm there's always multiple things going on at the same time over years.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: The project that most relates to this is I've for the last eight or nine years, I've been working with the Temp John Templedon Foundation, um, who's given about six of us this a number of grants.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I mention it is it the group is primarily psychologist and a couple Christian theologians and a philosopher.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and our subject has been really different versions of it's called um suffering, meaning making, and Christian flourishing.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you handle suffering?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, anyways, and literally millions of dollars have gone towards this, most of the money going to grad students in psychology doing empirical data gathering, where we do these we we spend a ton of time creating surveys.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, you don't need in all that.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: But so one of the books I'm doing is almost all of the work from that has been in academic psychology journals.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So now Liz Hall, who's at Biola, who's really wonderful, myself, and Jason McMartin, who's a philosopher theologian, are now trying to write a very short book on suffering where basically we want to take that eight years of research and put it in a very accessible way and say, here, in a sense, crudely put, here are best practices.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is what we've learned, here are things you should know about how to go through suffering.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's one of them.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working on a theology of Christian life, which I've been working on forever.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bit more academic, but I'm really excited about that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then a book with someone else on John Owen, that Puritan dude.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: That you're obsessed with.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: I um tried to read some John Owen, I think, at the beginning of the year, and I aborted mission.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I respect offering topics so much more.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's too hard.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, you made it simple though.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when it comes to scholars and reading scholars, I always like to ask this: what are your favorite commentaries or Bible study resources to use?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: What would you recommend average everyday lay people be aware of or use or read?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Would you suggest more John Owen?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, I wouldn't say.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it you know, it's very interesting.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: John Owen, this 17th-century figure, he's not easy to read.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Although I will say, this book, um, another uh guy named Justin Taylor and I edited called Overcoming Sin and Temptation.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And in that book, Crossway publishes it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've taken three of Owen's books.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this edited volume Justin Taylor and I did of John Owen's three works, and it's on overcoming sin and temptation.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we do, it's amazing how many people read that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I would encourage it's it's more like you read five pages at a time.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I would even encourage just read the first 80 page, the first, the first um small book in there is all you'd really need, and it's on mortification.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically how to kill sin in your life.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we really have found that people who slowly go through it with a small group um love it, and it's interesting, even though he's hard to read.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was originally it was originally spoken to college students in Oxford in the 17th century.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was the setting, but um, so it's a bit more accessible.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: But he is he is doing what you might call early Christian psychology.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's really exploring our souls and asking questions.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we do what we do?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: What does this reveal about us?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty interesting.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's really cool.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'll definitely have to check that out.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: But do you have any other Bible study resources that you would recommend or commentaries that you're enjoying right now?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for for your audience, I really do find, you know, IVP has one of these volumes.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: I really find like a one-volume, really thick commentary on the whole Bible, where you get pretty short things, but you can have access in, and for many of your listeners, you can get that digitally, so it's even easier on your phone.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's super helpful, so it's not overwhelming, but you really can get a little bit of information on anything.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so like the the NIV or the um IVP um Bible commentary would be great.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: I also think, and I'm sure you've used these.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's an Old Testament volume and a New Testament volume on basically cultural or uh backgrounds of the Old Testament, cultural backgrounds on the New Testament.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And what I like about that, it's a little different because it's just trying to give you in very short instance a little cultural or historical background that would help you understand.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not often in people's study Bibles and stuff.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those are some basic resources that are super, super helpful.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's really helpful.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: And where can people hear more from you?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know doesn't Covenant have chapels that you've done online?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm uh for some of the reasons we talked about earlier, I'm I'm actually not on social media, so I don't have a Twitter page, I don't have any of those things.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so thankful to people like you who do it well, so I don't have to.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, uh if you I mean if you type in my name, uh they can listen to talks and stuff.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Covenant does have a number of talks and their churches and that that kind of thing.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and all the books just on Amazon, it's that kind of thing.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: So but yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: But better than better than doing that, listen to faith.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, follow you're you're taking this stuff that you learned at Covenant and and spreading it to the masses.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me really happy.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, this is great.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: You really are the coolest person ever.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just to have studied on Meethea and to share you with my audience.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so thank you so much for being here on the podcast.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks for having me.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is delight.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Blessed by