Latest / Ministry Minded / Moral Failure, Ministry Fallout, and the Gospel with Eric Attinger

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Moral Failure, Ministry Fallout, and the Gospel with Eric Attinger · Ministry Minded

0:12
SPEAKER_01: There we go.
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SPEAKER_01: The old Hollywood people.
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SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our ministry
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SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm Pastor Brad Gray, and I'm here again with Pastor Eric Addinger.
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SPEAKER_00: So good to see you again, Eric.
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I see you every day,
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but it's like I always enjoy when we can just sit and shoot the
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breeze.
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SPEAKER_00: And this time...
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SPEAKER_00: We're recording one of those shooting the breeze sessions.
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SPEAKER_01: A lot of times they're off recordings.
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SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of deep ones like this off cuff,
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but it's nice to have it actually recorded for Futures and
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others to get to hear
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SPEAKER_01: what we kind of ramble about.
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We tend to ramble and we tend to riff,
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but that's what makes these enjoyable.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's just get right into it.
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There's no easy way to segue in what I want to talk about
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because it's something
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SPEAKER_00: that I think is,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_00: in the zeitgeist of our current church climate,
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SPEAKER_00: Christian climate.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't think...
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SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's a phenomenon that's unique to our moment,
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SPEAKER_00: but I think it feels unique only because,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't want to blame everything on social media,
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SPEAKER_00: but it feels unique because there's more of a prevalence of it.
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SPEAKER_00: And what we're talking about, of course, is either ministers or a.k.a.
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SPEAKER_00: quote-unquote Christian celebrities.
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SPEAKER_00: I hate to use that term.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't like that term.
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SPEAKER_00: But when they have a moral failing,
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when they fall and when there is this blow up of ramifications
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based on either
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SPEAKER_00: things that they've done,
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SPEAKER_00: things that they've lied about,
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SPEAKER_00: all that kind of stuff.
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When that kind of comes to a head and it gets out into sort of
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more of the mass population.
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SPEAKER_00: how are we as the church supposed to handle this?
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SPEAKER_00: Because there's so many different nuances to a pastor failing,
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SPEAKER_00: to a Christian celebrity,
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SPEAKER_00: a Christian famous person failing in a lot of ways.
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SPEAKER_00: Because I keep,
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SPEAKER_00: and we can talk about a lot of this,
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SPEAKER_00: and I want to relay it to the story of David,
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SPEAKER_00: because I think it's a really good example of it.
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SPEAKER_00: But I keep going back to
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SPEAKER_00: I want to start here.
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SPEAKER_00: And maybe I'm putting you on the spot with this, but this is good.
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SPEAKER_00: So is it in 1 Timothy?
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It's in one of the pastoral epistles where Paul talks about how
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a sin should be
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SPEAKER_00: actually kept within that congregation.
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SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm talking about?
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SPEAKER_00: So how do we...
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SPEAKER_00: How do we juxtapose that verse where Paul is talking about that?
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SPEAKER_00: I can't remember where it is.
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SPEAKER_00: But how do we juxtapose that?
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SPEAKER_00: How do we wrestle with that with this very public sort of...
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unpacking or this very public sort of uh accusations and then
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uh coming to a head
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with these ministers that are in like is that is that lawful is
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that biblical um
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how do we how do we wrestle with that that's a really
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interesting question and a
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lot of things like you're saying are nuanced because there's so
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many different
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layers to it like for example i know one of the recent ones
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michael tate from the
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SPEAKER_01: newsboys he's not even a
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SPEAKER_01: pastor per se.
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SPEAKER_01: So he's got to have a church, so how does that play out?
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Then you have others who are leaders of whether they're pastors
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or elders or
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SPEAKER_01: whatever,
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and there's a whole process of people who are supposed to
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approach them about their
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SPEAKER_01: sins and things like that.
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SPEAKER_01: But then when it comes public,
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SPEAKER_01: you're supposed to – a lot of people do this,
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SPEAKER_01: and I know a church locally.
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SPEAKER_01: I won't name them or whatever,
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SPEAKER_01: but they brought out one time their youth pastor who had been caught in,
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SPEAKER_01: I think it was some sexual immorality,
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SPEAKER_01: and
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And actually brought them up on stage in front of the church
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because that's part of
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SPEAKER_01: the church and actually announced it to the church publicly.
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And they took it as we are publicly to declare our sins because
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we are held to a
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higher standard and we need to come clean with this as a
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warning because there's
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SPEAKER_01: also scripture for that too.
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SPEAKER_01: And it gets really interesting in that facet there.
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SPEAKER_01: When it gets public,
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it's really interesting kind of how you're saying – we hate to
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say it – like
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SPEAKER_01: Christian celebrities,
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SPEAKER_01: and they just kind of are in a way –
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SPEAKER_01: The way we think of Hollywood people,
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SPEAKER_01: there are those kind of people in the Christian community.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: not every pastor like us are known by everybody out there,
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SPEAKER_01: but there are certain ones,
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SPEAKER_01: like Votie Bauckham,
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SPEAKER_01: John MacArthur,
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SPEAKER_01: those kind of guys are out there.
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So when those sins happen and they get picked up by a newspaper
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or whatever,
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SPEAKER_01: now it goes public,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's—
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SPEAKER_01: Then it becomes how you handle it from there.
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I still think it relies a lot on the church and how the church
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handles it on top of
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when there's victims because sometimes there's not so much
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victim as certain sins.
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SPEAKER_01: It depends on the sin and everything like that too.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
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SPEAKER_01: But when there's victims, that probably also has to come into play.
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So there's a lot of different layers based on each situation
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from situation to situation.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I think a lot can be handled.
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A lot of smaller churches or whatever,
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they might handle it inside the church.
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SPEAKER_01: The congregation is probably made aware of it in some fashion.
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SPEAKER_01: It's got to be addressed to them in some fashion.
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Maybe what that local church was trying to do publicly to their
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own church.
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SPEAKER_01: They didn't do publicly as go to the newspaper and tell them.
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SPEAKER_01: They did it publicly in front of their congregation.
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SPEAKER_01: I think it stays there and is handled in that fashion there.
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But it's a lot different when it starts to make it out into
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these news cycles
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SPEAKER_01: because now it's a different kind of public.
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I would say if the church—and you could take a lot of different
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sides,
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too.
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SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to tell.
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Somebody who's really upset about what these passages—and I'm
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calling the paper and
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SPEAKER_01: telling them what happened and what they did—
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: If they're a big person,
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maybe more people need to know about it so it can't be a hidden
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sin or whatever.
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But then there's also you don't want to gossip and you don't
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want to slander people either.
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SPEAKER_01: And then it also depends on the heart of the person.
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SPEAKER_01: Did they deny it?
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SPEAKER_01: Or did they repent?
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SPEAKER_01: Were they really sorry?
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SPEAKER_01: I'd be interested on your take because it's a very nuanced situation.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like this...
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weird like gray area in terms of knowing like where's the
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threshold for a pastor or
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minister maybe he's like a minister that works with a church
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but also like a
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parachurch ministry like where's the threshold where's the
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benchmark where you
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become more public than just your local church and that's not
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necessarily a bad
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thing it can be a negative thing if you're getting so you know
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taken up and caught
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up with all this other stuff that you're forgetting your
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primary ministry but
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SPEAKER_00: I think the point of it all is it's kind of – I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: Do you have to get a certain Instagram follower account?
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that is.
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SPEAKER_01: What are the criteria for this?
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SPEAKER_00: We need some Instagram verses in the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what makes it difficult for –
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SPEAKER_00: I think the church to respond to,
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SPEAKER_00: but also for even those who are not actively involved in church,
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the long-running frustration with the Southern Baptist
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Convention is the ways in
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SPEAKER_00: which they have not always dealt with
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With these types of issues,
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not only in a legal way,
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but maybe even a biblical way.
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SPEAKER_00: And where does that deserve a lot of this public castigation?
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SPEAKER_00: Or should that be handled locally?
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where a lot of this...
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unfortunately a lot of this nuance is emerging out of is like
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there's no like
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distinct line like this is when it becomes a matter of public
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opinion versus just
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local church authority the elders are able to handle this it's
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kind of like you
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kind of know it when you see it and that's kind of like an
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annoying threshold yeah
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard to tell because people are like, how do I know?
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SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like you know when you see it.
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SPEAKER_01: We're going to go back to the example of the Newsboys, Michael Tate.
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Theirs is interesting,
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and theirs might have had to have been made public.
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SPEAKER_01: I know the band came out and had to make a public statement,
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SPEAKER_01: and people would say,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: why did they have to make a public statement?
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SPEAKER_01: Couldn't they just – well,
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SPEAKER_01: because technically,
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SPEAKER_01: if you want to get real technical about it,
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SPEAKER_01: they were in some form a Christian ministry.
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SPEAKER_01: Some people could argue that they weren't pastors today,
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SPEAKER_01: but they had a Christian platform,
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SPEAKER_01: and because they were broadcasting publicly,
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you almost have to apologize publicly because people who are
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out there receiving
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SPEAKER_01: your message are part of your quote-unquote church people,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: And they're not necessarily—the newsboys weren't a church by any means.
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There are a lot of Christians out there who are taking their
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music who probably
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SPEAKER_01: really thought highly of Michael Tate and the whole crew,
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SPEAKER_01: DC Talk,
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SPEAKER_01: even going all the way back.
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So they almost had to publicly do this in a way because their
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outlet was public,
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right?
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SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's how we take with these other celebrity pastors.
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SPEAKER_01: If somebody big,
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SPEAKER_01: like a big-name person,
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SPEAKER_01: like say John Piper or something,
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SPEAKER_01: did something scandalous or whatever –
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You might have to come out,
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and at least on the platforms,
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they delivered it.
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SPEAKER_01: If they put it on YouTube, you might have to have a YouTube thing.
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SPEAKER_01: If they did a podcast on Spotify,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you actually have to go make a public thing on Spotify,
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SPEAKER_01: but you have to probably reach the community that was affected,
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SPEAKER_01: and I think that's where it goes.
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I think that's where the concept is with the church,
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bring it before the church.
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SPEAKER_01: Why do you have to make it public before the church?
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: because those churches were under those people,
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so I think that's where the interesting context comes in is who
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did they affect?
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SPEAKER_01: Who are they preaching?
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SPEAKER_01: Because you have to come clean—
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SPEAKER_01: with who you were over top of.
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SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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SPEAKER_00: And there has to be some level of transparency and also that level of
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SPEAKER_00: responsibility,
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SPEAKER_00: not only with what was being sort of proclaimed,
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SPEAKER_00: but just who the proclaimer was of that message.
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SPEAKER_00: This brings up another interesting nuance that I've seen happen recently
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SPEAKER_00: especially in the case of Josh Buse or the case of Steve Lawson.
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Number one,
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it's gut-wrenching that even we have to be talking about this
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stuff.
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I think it's also—and I don't mean to be cynical,
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but it shouldn't be surprising.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, sinners are going to sin.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00: But I think what I was trying to get at is that there's this—
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SPEAKER_00: Interesting,
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SPEAKER_00: and I don't even know necessarily what your whole take is,
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SPEAKER_00: so I'm interested to hear it.
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SPEAKER_00: So like if a person has this scandal,
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SPEAKER_00: this whatever it might be,
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SPEAKER_00: and maybe it depends on what it is,
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SPEAKER_00: but whatever it might be,
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the scandal that sort of erupts and it just sort of implodes
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whatever ministry they
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SPEAKER_00: have –
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SPEAKER_00: There's been this response by some of their,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: associate ministries and other people that are within their group to,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: erase everything that they've ever done.
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SPEAKER_00: And, like, do you think that that's a biblically responsible thing to do?
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SPEAKER_00: Does it depend on the nature of their sin and failing?
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SPEAKER_00: Because to me, I'll just give you my opinion.
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SPEAKER_00: It screams, like, all of a sudden, suddenly...
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regardless of who this guy is,
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his sin is enough to erase the authority of what he said.
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SPEAKER_00: And that, I don't think that necessarily always tracks.
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SPEAKER_00: Like if we're just suddenly now saying, oh, all of this is bad.
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SPEAKER_00: And so you can't,
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SPEAKER_00: You can't glean anything from this, so to speak.
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SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
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And I'm kind of—I'm with you on that,
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I think,
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because you can even go to a smaller sense.
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Like,
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imagine how crazy this would get if even,
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like,
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say— Some people aren't always pastors.
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SPEAKER_01: They disciple.
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SPEAKER_01: Say they're a longtime believer, and they're discipling a new person.
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SPEAKER_01: And they were teaching them scripture that they never heard before.
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And they were showing them how to act,
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and it was all accurate biblically.
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If they find out that their mentor stole or had sexual
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immorality in their marriage
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SPEAKER_01: or whatever,
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SPEAKER_01: do they just say,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: all that was false?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, no!
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: Because that was the Bible, and it didn't come from that person.
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SPEAKER_01: That person – now,
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if they wrote a book on it or they wrote a book and they had
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their own words,
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SPEAKER_01: maybe you can – but even then,
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SPEAKER_01: if the words are reflective of Scripture,
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SPEAKER_01: you match it up to Scripture.
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SPEAKER_01: You can't – character does not erase truth.
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SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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So that's the kind of thing just because my character is bad or
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somebody's
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SPEAKER_01: character is bad on a certain –
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SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
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SPEAKER_01: It doesn't erase anything true they did.
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SPEAKER_01: I remember this happened even with Ravi Zacharias.
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SPEAKER_01: When that went down,
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SPEAKER_01: I knew a guy was like,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: I can't even – I'm getting rid of all the stuff I ever heard from him.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm getting rid of that.
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SPEAKER_01: How can I even believe anything?
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I was like,
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well,
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what he was teaching didn't have anything to do with his
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actions.
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There's different – and that's actually a big difference is
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doctrine and character.
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SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it can happen.
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SPEAKER_01: I've seen it happen where…
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SPEAKER_01: people can overlook character because their doctrine is so good.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: It can flip the other way.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, well, I know the sin.
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I know they do whatever they do,
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but they teach the gospel and they preach it.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: And they do.
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SPEAKER_01: And they do.
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SPEAKER_01: So how you almost have to separate them into two categories.
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SPEAKER_01: And some people,
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SPEAKER_01: and again,
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because it's so nuanced and the scripture doesn't have a whole
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book on how this,
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SPEAKER_01: how you handle this.
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We have some hints here and there and we have to use the Bible
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in context.
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Um,
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one example,
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I mean,
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one example I can think of is Peter actually,
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like think about Peter.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: He denies Jesus three times.
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SPEAKER_01: Is that the worst thing a Christian can do?
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SPEAKER_01: Probably one of the worst things you can do.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't even know that guy.
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SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine if a pastor was out in New York City and they're like,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: aren't you that pastor?
12:46
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't even know who Jesus is.
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SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say anything about that guy.
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SPEAKER_01: We'd be like, you should never be a pastor ever.
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again yeah disqualified and yeah and then does so then jesus
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says all right peter
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you're disqualified forever nope he says all right on you i
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will build my church
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like wait what wait what are you what are you talking about so
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there must be
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something again that's another interesting situation or
13:04
whatever but like nobody
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says that you know whatever peter was telling people were out
13:07
there when he went
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you know and he was able to preach later on to people and a lot
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of people got saved
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and pentecost and all those kind of things you see in the book
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of acts after that
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SPEAKER_01: so it shows that there can still be good done
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for the gospel and it probably again depends on the heart of
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people but i don't
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think you can just throw everything out because then you're
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starting to again
13:25
linked doctrine with character and the world would love us to
13:29
do that yes and and
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that's the problem and that's actually what will happen i know
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people of churches
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who have had these big fallouts and a pastor gets caught in
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some sin and i know
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people that they don't go to church anymore they're like how
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could i how could i
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SPEAKER_01: even go to a church when
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SPEAKER_01: I'm just led by a bunch of crooked people.
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SPEAKER_01: I can't even get involved in that.
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SPEAKER_01: And they fall away from God even to the extreme versions.
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SPEAKER_01: How can I believe in a God?
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SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, God wasn't your preacher.
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SPEAKER_01: So you have – they're the ambassadors.
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I made like a – I illustrated this as somebody who was actually
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struggling this one
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SPEAKER_01: time,
13:59
SPEAKER_01: and I said,
14:00
SPEAKER_01: imagine you're a big LeBron James fan and you love his basketball.
14:03
But then one of his fans down the road punches you in the face
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and is a real jerk
14:07
SPEAKER_01: and steals and robs your house.
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SPEAKER_01: Do you burn your LeBron James stuff?
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SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, no.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't do that because one of his fans was terrible, right?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: And in a way,
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SPEAKER_01: you can look at us like,
14:17
just because one of Jesus' ambassadors was terrible doesn't
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mean you take it out on
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Jesus.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Jesus never did any of these things that these people did.
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SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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SPEAKER_00: So you can't throw him out.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: The truth remains true regardless of...
14:28
the one who is proclaiming it whether they are like remain
14:32
upstanding for their
14:33
whole life or not the truth is still truth and it reminds me of
14:36
what paul says in
14:37
philippians 1 where he's like you know there were some
14:40
preachers that were
14:40
preaching christ out of sincerity others out of you know they
14:44
were doing it for
14:45
some you know maybe not above board purposes and he says but
14:49
what does it matter
14:50
whether in pretense or in truth christ is proclaimed and that's
14:53
sort of the point
14:54
SPEAKER_00: and again this isn't to diminish
14:56
SPEAKER_00: the importance of the character of a leader.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Just read 1 Timothy 3.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Paul is making a very clear statement on that is indubitably important,
15:07
SPEAKER_00: and it's definitely something that the church has to consider,
15:10
but also that doesn't have to factor in in terms of the truth
15:15
being true or not.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: It's true regardless.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: The Word of God's promise is that which we are given, which means that
15:26
SPEAKER_00: I think a good example of this could be the prophet Jonah.
15:30
He's not the most upstanding ambassador for the message that
15:34
God wants us to
15:35
SPEAKER_00: proclaim,
15:36
SPEAKER_00: not only because he runs,
15:37
SPEAKER_00: but because he gets frustrated when it actually works.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: He's like, dang.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Why did you have mercy on them?
15:45
SPEAKER_00: But I think there's a lesson in that,
15:47
that the word that God wants to proclaim and convey to sinners
15:55
is true regardless
15:55
SPEAKER_00: of the messenger.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, just another great example is Balaam's donkey.
16:01
It's another great example of like it's true regardless of who
16:05
the messenger of this truth is.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: And that brings us back to,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: again,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: how can we,
16:12
SPEAKER_00: as the church,
16:13
SPEAKER_00: either as leaders,
16:14
SPEAKER_00: fellow leaders,
16:15
SPEAKER_00: or as people who sit in the pews,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: how should we respond?
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, should I burn all my Newsboys CDs?
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Should I get rid of all of my Ravi Zacharias books?
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, how should we respond personally?
16:28
when when that happens like what's like some practical ways
16:32
that we can process
16:34
that so to speak yeah and that's a really great question again
16:37
i think it is
16:37
separating the thing and you might you know some people might
16:39
be jaded by the whole
16:41
situation and say i'm never listening to them again and if it
16:43
makes you you know
16:44
think of these things and it gets you all riled up maybe take a
16:47
break from it um
16:48
but i don't think again you don't think you have to get rid of
16:49
everything you can
16:50
definitely be disappointed i think there's like that
16:52
disappointment factor
16:53
SPEAKER_02: definitely
16:54
Just like maybe one of your good friends or something like that
16:57
does something really bad.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: You can be disappointed,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: maybe ashamed for them or whatever,
17:02
SPEAKER_01: but the reaction is just so hard to tell,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: and I think it also depends on how the person acts.
17:09
ax again too like did they go down with a fight or did they
17:12
come up with their
17:12
hands up in the air say you got me that was wrong of me uh
17:16
because it'd be a little
17:17
bit different if you find out that this pastor got taken out
17:19
and he was just
17:20
kicking and screaming the whole time until they finally busted
17:23
him yeah like like
17:24
all that shameful whatever you can i think you can still listen
17:26
to their stuff but
17:27
i know there's a lot of other good pastors out there like if
17:29
that really bothers
17:29
SPEAKER_01: you you know i mean you don't have to stick on your guy you can you can
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Pivot, right?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Nothing you throw and you burn all your books.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: You burn all your Newsboys CDs.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: But there's other bands.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: You can go listen to whatever other Christian artists you want.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: There's other ones if you want to.
17:42
If you really have a passion for that music or there is
17:44
something in those books
17:45
SPEAKER_01: that you need to revisit,
17:47
I think it's still okay to do that again if you separate the
17:51
person from it.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: However,
17:52
you can also be disappointed and frustrated with the fact that
17:54
you don't want
17:54
SPEAKER_01: anything to do with it anymore.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fair assessment, and you can say, you know what?
17:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: They failed me.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: It just makes me sick to my stomach what they went through.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: I can't take it seriously anymore.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's,
18:05
SPEAKER_01: again,
18:05
one of those situations that you can do that as long as you
18:07
don't do it in a
18:07
SPEAKER_01: vindictive way,
18:09
SPEAKER_01: in a hateful way,
18:10
SPEAKER_01: because that's the other thing that's really tricky too is like even our
18:13
SPEAKER_01: disappointments and frustrations,
18:14
SPEAKER_01: we still have to be gentle Christians about things,
18:16
SPEAKER_00: right?
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: especially when they're repentant.
18:19
And I would hope most of them are – most of them are usually –
18:22
they usually repent.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: It's usually the way they get to repent.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Some of them have kicked and screamed.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Some tried to hide it and cover it up,
18:27
SPEAKER_01: and then some come out with their hands up and say,
18:28
SPEAKER_01: you caught me,
18:29
SPEAKER_01: right?
18:30
SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting.
18:31
I think,
18:31
again,
18:31
it's probably going to – on the situation of the sin,
18:34
like what was it?
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Because that's the other thing.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Like we look at the big –
18:38
disqualifications of usually sexual immorality or money some
18:42
scandalous money it's
18:43
usually those are the two i think of like yeah somebody was
18:45
stealing money or
18:47
somebody was sexual immorality every once in a while you get
18:49
somebody's bashing
18:50
other people right and there's even like those ones like
18:53
financial responsibility
18:54
SPEAKER_01: you can't keep told your household your household is just crazy like yeah
18:57
SPEAKER_01: So how do you handle those people?
18:59
Their house is out of control because technically we don't see
19:00
those often,
19:01
SPEAKER_01: but somebody's house is out of control.
19:03
Their kids aren't – their wife,
19:05
all kinds of – we don't see those as often.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure each sin affects our minds differently too.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Some of those big ones like sexual morality,
19:13
they cheat on their wife with some other woman or whatever or
19:16
they were stealing
19:16
SPEAKER_01: from the church.
19:17
Those are going to be hard to get over and probably hard to
19:19
swallow and probably
19:20
SPEAKER_01: hard to want to study their stuff anymore.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:22
So I think,
19:23
again,
19:23
it comes to the person and how – and the church might be
19:26
different.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: You might have somebody in the pew who's like, you know what?
19:29
SPEAKER_01: I've forgiven them.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: I still really love their sermons.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: This one really spoke to me.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: I go back to it in my times of depression or whatever.
19:35
And there's somebody right next to them in the pew that says,
19:37
I'm never listening to them again.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: I think they're both fair assessments based on the individual.
19:41
Yeah,
19:42
and I think the point that stands out to me in what you were
19:45
saying is like –
19:48
SPEAKER_00: In my way of thinking, it's almost like there's too quick of a reaction.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: This thing happens and we're quick to pivot and be like,
19:56
SPEAKER_00: all right,
19:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm disavowing everything that this person ever did or said.
20:02
Without maybe being patient enough to see how all of this can
20:10
or might be restored.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: That's the difficult part, right?
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Whenever there's an issue like this,
20:15
SPEAKER_00: regardless of what the details are or the ingredients are,
20:20
SPEAKER_00: there's always...
20:21
SPEAKER_00: There's the perpetrator, so to speak.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: There's the damaged person.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: But then there's the collateral damage,
20:27
SPEAKER_00: like the congregation and those that are – like you were talking about,
20:29
SPEAKER_00: the followers,
20:30
SPEAKER_00: the people that were maybe not right there,
20:34
SPEAKER_00: but they were benefiting from whatever this person was saying.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And so each of those has to be taken into account.
20:39
But I think more often than not,
20:42
rather than having a quick knee-jerk reaction –
20:47
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you can based on how the perpetrator is responding.
20:51
Like you said,
20:52
are they holding on and clinging to whatever story they're
20:55
making up?
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Or are they being genuinely repentant and acting upon...
21:02
being caught and being found out and I think both of those can
21:07
really tell you the
21:08
heart of the person the the heart of of of them realizing what
21:13
they have done and
21:14
the damage that they've inflicted and working towards
21:18
reconciling if that's
21:19
possible or are they resisting and plunging further into their
21:25
own you know almost
21:27
SPEAKER_00: like
21:28
self-immolation because they're almost they're not only
21:30
damaging others but they're
21:31
damaging themselves in the process um and and so maybe i'm just
21:36
trying to urge for
21:37
maybe patience instead of quick knee-jerk reactions yeah and
21:41
that's that's i think
21:42
a healthy thing to do um because even i mean even as parents
21:45
you can sometimes too
21:46
SPEAKER_01: want to knee-jerk react to what your kids do yeah
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes you'll say, I overreacted.
21:51
I shouldn't have used that tone of voice because they were –
21:54
you just reacted based
21:56
SPEAKER_01: on what happened.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: So we see that even in the parents,
21:59
SPEAKER_01: let alone with everything else in life,
22:00
SPEAKER_01: and because we live in such a fast society,
22:03
SPEAKER_01: and you mentioned social media.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: When you see comment sections,
22:06
SPEAKER_01: they're going to get you fired up,
22:07
SPEAKER_01: and you're going to say,
22:08
SPEAKER_01: well,
22:08
SPEAKER_01: that person said that,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: and I'm like –
22:09
that right or they're wrong and it's like and it's because it's
22:11
immediately
22:12
happening because the news broke and it's like the news you
22:15
look at the post and it
22:15
was released 10 minutes ago yeah and there's 385 comments with
22:19
opinions i need to
22:20
have a response i need to be relevant and it's gonna be over
22:23
and i can't post two
22:24
days later because then i'm behind and it is how people feel i
22:27
remember in
22:27
journalism when i was in journalism for a while in school they
22:30
were saying about
22:30
how and this is years and years ago how almost the reason
22:33
journalism was going to
22:34
SPEAKER_01: go downhill and this is like
22:35
SPEAKER_01: It was like almost 20 – 15 to 20 years ago.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: They were starting to say because of how things move so fast,
22:40
SPEAKER_01: it's going to cause journalists,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: which you see today.
22:44
One of the big things in journalism is you are the first one to
22:47
put out – you even
22:48
SPEAKER_01: hear that in ESPN.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Who was the – per this person's report.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Because they broke the story.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: They broke the story.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Who broke the story?
22:53
SPEAKER_01: So there's a race, and before it was a little bit more nuanced.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: There was a little bit more time to go on.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: And now everything's instant, so everybody rushes.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And then you know how it goes with redactions.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Nobody reads the redactions.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: Nobody reads the stories.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: even in newspapers,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: they would say the breaking stories on the front page,
23:07
SPEAKER_01: the redactions are on page four.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: If you look, that's actually how it operates.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: So that can happen in social media.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: That can happen with us because we're all technically journal.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Social media is a media.
23:17
So we're all our own little mini journalists because we make
23:19
our own posts.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: We're our own newspapers.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: We're our own journalists commenting on other things like that.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: So I think you're right.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: I think it's in a world that's moved so fast and is so quick to react.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: You've got to slow down and take into consideration.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: And what you said is so true.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Again,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: it was about their heart,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: and it reminds me of – people get so confused because of David,
23:38
SPEAKER_01: and David had so many sins.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Bathsheba's one, but there was so many other things.
23:43
You could arguably say that he got the priest that Nob killed
23:45
for the way he lied
23:46
SPEAKER_01: and said,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: oh,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm just here on whatever,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: and it's like,
23:49
SPEAKER_01: no,
23:49
SPEAKER_01: you're running from Saul.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Why are you here, man?
23:51
SPEAKER_01: And they all get murdered later,
23:52
and he's potentially – because there are a bunch – and that was
23:54
before Bathsheba.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And there's more that follow.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't punish Amnon and doesn't do anything like that.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: So he had a lot of things, and he had a bunch of women.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: He was married, and it's like, can I do that?
24:04
SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, that was a description, not a prescription.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: There's a difference between that.
24:08
So it's like,
24:08
well,
24:08
then why did God say he was a man after his own heart?
24:11
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Does that mean I can do all that stuff?
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, it doesn't mean that at all.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: What he's doing is you're looking at two different kings.
24:16
You look at David,
24:17
and he repents when he gets caught in sin because we're all
24:20
sinners.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: And that means, like, you know, we're—David's in a certain way that—
24:24
SPEAKER_01: We're not going to live a perfect life.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we're not going to sleep with women and all those kind of things,
24:27
SPEAKER_01: but there's going to be things we fall in,
24:28
and it's going to be about God wants to see how you react
24:31
because you go before
24:32
SPEAKER_01: him,
24:32
SPEAKER_01: and it was Saul,
24:33
SPEAKER_01: and you see Saul's caught in sin.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Samuel shows up, and he starts making excuses.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Well,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: you were too slow to get here,
24:38
SPEAKER_01: and somebody had to – I had to do this,
24:40
SPEAKER_01: and he starts – what is he doing?
24:41
SPEAKER_01: He's dying.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: justifying a sin.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: So you look at these pastors and people and you,
24:45
SPEAKER_01: and you look at them like,
24:46
SPEAKER_01: well,
24:46
SPEAKER_01: why'd you,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: some,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: some pastor caught stealing money and they say,
24:49
SPEAKER_01: why'd you do it?
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, my family was struggling.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, that's not the reaction.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, maybe that's true.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: You should say that was wrong.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, why did you do this?
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, my marriage was on the rocks and I, she showed me attention.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, well, that's not the right response.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Like not by any means.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that's usually the case of people making excuses,
25:06
SPEAKER_01: but I do think it matters about the heart.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: And then even like,
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Why are they saying these things?
25:11
Are they saying things like if you hear somebody say,
25:13
I'm sorry,
25:14
now can I still be the pastor?
25:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like, whoa, whoa, I don't know if you're really repentant.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: It seems like there's something behind that, right?
25:19
So I think it does depend on the heart,
25:20
and that's where people get really confused.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Like why was David the man after God's own heart?
25:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's because every time he got caught in a sin –
25:29
Maybe not always in the Bible literally,
25:30
but you see that,
25:31
especially with the Nathan rebuke.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: You see when he sees it, he is truly on his knees, probably weeping.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: He's feeling it,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: and he's sorry,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: just like a genuine Christian really will,
25:40
how we feel about our sin nature and how we wish we could get
25:42
rid of our sin
25:43
SPEAKER_01: nature.
25:43
But we know we're going to sin until the end of time,
25:45
hopefully less and less.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: But every time we do something wrong,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: it should penetrate your heart and say,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: you should go right to prayer.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't find ways to, like, well, let me look up some scripture—
25:55
SPEAKER_01: To see if there's a way that this isn't a sin,
25:57
SPEAKER_01: which I've heard so many people do,
25:59
especially in our nuanced culture where you've got social media
26:02
and all kinds of
26:02
SPEAKER_01: other things that aren't specifically listed in the Bible.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Those are the hard ones.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: You get drunk on alcohol.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: That's easy.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: That's in the Bible.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: You sleep with another woman.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: That's easy.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: That's in the Bible.
26:11
But some of these other things that are so – all these
26:14
categories,
26:14
there's all these rules.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And that's what a lot of times sinners will do.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: If they want to keep – because sinners love their sin,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: they're going to want to find ways to justify it.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: And I've seen that in my own situation dealing with other people,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: other peoples in churches and stuff,
26:28
SPEAKER_01: is when you go confront them with sin,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: some of them will try to justify why they did it,
26:33
SPEAKER_01: and that's the problem with the heart.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's exactly right.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: It shows you where actually their heart is.
26:42
Do they have a heart of dependence,
26:43
or do they have a heart of self-justification?
26:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you brought up the story of David,
26:47
not only because it factors into the devastating story of
26:52
Michael Tate and his
26:53
SPEAKER_00: response to it,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's one of the most...
26:58
SPEAKER_00: Not one of the most,
26:59
SPEAKER_00: but it is among the most pivotal stories in the Bible,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: but especially in the Old Testament.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: It shows just so much the heart of God, let alone the heart of man.
27:12
And so let's kind of like go through that,
27:14
because it is one of the,
27:17
we could say like the...
27:19
the perfect storm of conditions and circumstances that also
27:24
bring out the worst in
27:25
SPEAKER_00: a person,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: right?
27:26
Like David is not where he should be making decisions that he
27:30
can make because he
27:32
SPEAKER_00: has all of this kingly authority,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: but he's abusing it in that standpoint.
27:37
There's so many little factors in the story that make it so
27:40
relevant to where we
27:41
are that show us a leader who fails and then the response to
27:46
that and how powerful
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Just because they,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: quote-unquote,
27:50
say the right things doesn't mean that that escapes them from
27:54
consequences and all
27:56
SPEAKER_00: of that that comes down upon David's life for the rest of his life.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: So let's kind of go through that a little bit if you can,
28:04
SPEAKER_00: because I know you taught on this recently,
28:06
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's really helpful to see this as...
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
28:10
SPEAKER_00: it's a real story with real victims,
28:12
but it is a really good paradigm for understanding how to make
28:16
sense of these same
28:17
SPEAKER_00: things that happen in our moment,
28:19
SPEAKER_00: right?
28:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And if you go to that story, I like what you said there.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: It starts out where he's in the wrong place, right?
28:25
And I was even actually mentioning it last night in our
28:27
conversation how even
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Samson,
28:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:29
SPEAKER_01: when he breaks,
28:29
SPEAKER_01: you look at those vows,
28:30
SPEAKER_01: he's by a vineyard.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you doing?
28:32
by a vineyard dude you can't touch grapes you can't do any of
28:34
this stuff what are
28:35
you doing there and so often sin will find us when we're in
28:38
places we shouldn't be
28:39
yeah and a lot of people not everybody catches that in the
28:42
david story like well he
28:43
was just you know looking out on the he was up on a rooftop and
28:45
he just happened to
28:46
see her it's like no he was supposed to be out at war the
28:49
scripture says in
28:50
SPEAKER_01: springtime when the kings would be out at war
28:52
SPEAKER_01: So he was supposed to be on the battlefield,
28:53
SPEAKER_01: and he decides to take the war off,
28:56
SPEAKER_01: the season off.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: He's going to take the year off,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: and because he's not out at battle,
29:00
SPEAKER_01: he's now in a place he shouldn't be,
29:02
SPEAKER_01: and that's a lot of times where sin is.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And I remember talking to somebody before,
29:06
SPEAKER_01: and somebody got caught in a sin,
29:07
SPEAKER_01: and the first thing the one guy said,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: he goes,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: he shouldn't have been there.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: And it was one of the things – and it's so funny.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: You can say that to a lot of people.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: So you can sometimes think in your life, should I even be there?
29:16
And a lot of pastors would get in these situations because they
29:18
were in places they
29:19
SPEAKER_01: shouldn't have been or situations even they shouldn't have been.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Then you have – so what he does is he's looking at her on the rooftop,
29:27
SPEAKER_01: and he sees it just like Adam and Eve.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: They saw the fruit, a con.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: He saw the treasures.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times sin will happen when you see it, so it won't always –
29:37
SPEAKER_01: It won't always physically manifest first.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: You'll see the sin.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: So he looks and he sees it.
29:41
And I'm sure a lot of these pastors' situations,
29:43
they were somewhere they shouldn't have been.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: They saw something they should have been doing, and they meditated on it.
29:48
And then they meditated on it long enough to,
29:49
like,
29:50
David looks and says,
29:50
hey,
29:51
bring her here.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: And then he acts on it.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And then he commits the sin.
29:55
And then what's worse in that story is not that he immediately
29:57
– because sometimes
29:58
SPEAKER_01: in the Bible you'll see,
30:00
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:00
SPEAKER_01: actually I think later on in 2 Samuel 24 –
30:03
SPEAKER_01: After David's done taking the census,
30:05
SPEAKER_01: which was also a sin,
30:06
SPEAKER_01: it says before God even sends Gad,
30:09
SPEAKER_01: the prophet,
30:10
SPEAKER_01: to him,
30:10
SPEAKER_01: his heart failed him.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: He felt right when he said, like, I shouldn't have done this.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: He had a different reaction there,
30:16
SPEAKER_01: whereas in the Bathsheba one,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: it's such a perfect storm,
30:18
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
30:18
SPEAKER_01: because he's like,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: well,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: I did this,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: but let me call her husband back,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to try to cover this up.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And when that doesn't work...
30:25
SPEAKER_01: What does he do?
30:26
SPEAKER_01: He sins some more.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: He gets them drunk.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: So now he's getting Uriah to sins.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Now he's getting more and more, and that's what can happen with sin.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: You can get more and more people involved in your sin to cover it up.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: And then after Uriah is dead, he marries Bathsheba.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: So then,
30:39
SPEAKER_01: all right,
30:39
SPEAKER_01: well,
30:40
SPEAKER_01: even though,
30:40
SPEAKER_01: because he was trying to make it look like Uriah got her pregnant,
30:42
SPEAKER_01: he didn't.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, now I'll just marry her quick.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: And it looks like because we got married, we had this baby.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: He's like, no, no, no, you did this all before.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: So you can see him kicking dirt over his tracks.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: He's just trying to cover things up.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: And you wonder how long it would have actually went.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Now he does like later on,
30:55
you can read the Psalms where he says like that whole time his
30:58
bones felt like they
30:59
SPEAKER_01: were rotting or whatever language he uses.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Like he felt that inside and he knew,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: I think deep down he was covering up a sin,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: but would he have covered it up forever?
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of times maybe pastors,
31:08
SPEAKER_01: if they wouldn't be caught stealing it,
31:10
SPEAKER_01: they wouldn't have been caught.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: The victims wouldn't have came out and said what they did.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Would they have taken that to the grave?
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And would have David taken that to the grave?
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: The only reason he didn't,
31:20
SPEAKER_01: It was because Nathan came to rebuke him.
31:22
What's really interesting there is what I love about that story
31:26
is when he says –
31:27
SPEAKER_01: talk about these lambs that were stolen.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to return – it was supposed to compound.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to give out more sheep than you stole,
31:34
SPEAKER_01: but David says he should be killed,
31:36
SPEAKER_01: which is actually an excessive punishment,
31:38
SPEAKER_01: which I think is really interesting because what would happen like –
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Say,
31:41
SPEAKER_01: just for instance,
31:42
you went to Steve Lawson or whatever before he got caught with
31:45
his sexual sin,
31:46
SPEAKER_01: and you went and told him,
31:46
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: hey,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: there's a pastor down the road,
31:48
SPEAKER_01: and he was caught sleeping.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: What should he do?
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Would these pastors say, oh, he should be fired.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Get him out of there.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: He has no business being in a pulpit.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: And then say, oh, no, we were talking about you, buddy.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: It's like, uh-oh.
31:58
It would be interesting if pastors and these leaders or Michael
32:01
Tate would have
32:01
SPEAKER_01: been confronted about,
32:03
SPEAKER_01: hey,
32:03
there's some other band person that's been touching men
32:05
inappropriately and doing
32:06
SPEAKER_01: cocaine and all these kind of things.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: It was interesting how David was able to say he was excessive.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't even a lawful punishment.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: It was an excessive one the Bible didn't even call for.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting that it shows that even in our same sins,
32:21
we judge other people more harshly for the sins that we commit
32:23
than ourselves.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And we see ourselves in a better light.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until Nathan points it out, that man is you.
32:29
I can only imagine the dread that filled him because the Psalms
32:33
give us a hint that
32:33
SPEAKER_01: the whole time as he was hiding it,
32:35
SPEAKER_01: he felt sick about it.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure even Michael Tate and all these other guys that have—
32:40
SPEAKER_01: These pastors probably don't feel good about it,
32:42
SPEAKER_01: and they know what they're doing,
32:43
SPEAKER_01: and it feels dark and ominous,
32:44
but they don't want to come out and tell the truth because a
32:46
lot of times what
32:47
SPEAKER_01: they're going to lose,
32:48
SPEAKER_01: right?
32:49
SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if David even thought, like, will I be kicked out as king?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Will they run me out of town?
32:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting, but he does repent, so that's a good thing.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: He does repent.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: He has a repentful heart, but like you said—
33:01
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times we want to say, well, we repented of our sin, God.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: All right, you removed the sin from me, and that's true eternally.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I say your sin is removed in the eternal sense.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: But in the earthly sense,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: you can still face punishments,
33:13
and David is the number one case for that because what happens
33:16
right after that?
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, the son dies.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: And it hurts him.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: It hurts, and he weeps and stuff.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: But then not only that, you can say, all right, well, he was punished.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: It still goes on.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: His son starts raping his daughter, and then his son kills his son.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: There's murder in the family.
33:31
Absalom's after him and you see all these things that his life
33:35
from then on you can
33:36
see earthly punishment for those sins because why he was the
33:40
leader of Israel he
33:42
was supposed to be that now he wasn't a priest you can argue
33:44
well he wasn't a
33:44
priest because people say well why wasn't he removed from it
33:47
well he was a king and
33:48
he had a Davidic covenant very interesting these pastors didn't
33:50
have some covenant
33:51
nobody made a with Steve Lawson said hey I'll have a son that
33:54
will be on pastors
33:56
you know he'd be in the pulpit forever and ever and ever he
33:58
didn't have anything
33:58
SPEAKER_01: like that um
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And the king role is different than a priest role,
34:02
SPEAKER_01: but I would definitely say David had his different promises.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: He was a king and stuff,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: but he still did face real drastic earthly consequences,
34:09
SPEAKER_01: which I think would – I think,
34:11
SPEAKER_01: again,
34:11
this is a biblical outline of how it's going to run or how
34:14
ought it maybe run,
34:15
SPEAKER_01: and God will have a say in it too.
34:17
But what will happen to people in their sin and how it happens
34:20
and the repercussions for it.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Another good example of that,
34:23
SPEAKER_00: of like,
34:23
SPEAKER_00: hey,
34:23
SPEAKER_00: you are the man sort of moment,
34:26
SPEAKER_00: is actually just coming in the course of something I've been studying,
34:28
SPEAKER_00: which is Matthew 21 and the parable of the wicked vineyard workers.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:34
SPEAKER_00: when Jesus tells the story of like,
34:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:36
SPEAKER_00: this vineyard was planted and it was given to these tenants,
34:38
SPEAKER_00: these vineyard workers.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: And then when it comes time for harvest,
34:41
the vineyard owner sends servants and then the workers kill
34:45
them and it happens and
34:46
SPEAKER_00: happens and happens.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: And then the owner sends the son, and then they kill the son.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: And of course, it's a very transparent parable.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: One of Jesus's most very obvious parables.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: And then what's so fascinating is that Jesus leaves the story open-ended,
35:02
SPEAKER_00: and he's like,
35:03
SPEAKER_00: hey,
35:04
SPEAKER_00: scribes and Pharisees,
35:05
what do you think should happen to these vineyard workers after
35:09
they've done this?
35:10
SPEAKER_00: And they're like,
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, kill them.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: They need justice.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: They need to be thrown out.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: And we need to give this vineyard to another people.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: We need to get new tenants.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is almost like, exactly.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: You're proving my point.
35:22
But I think that's a really interesting way to say that sin is
35:27
confronted by almost
35:29
like putting it into a corner where you realize that this sort
35:34
of pit that you
35:35
SPEAKER_00: found yourself in is almost like...
35:38
SPEAKER_00: self-digged.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: You've done it yourself, so to speak.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: It's the self-made atrocity by choices,
35:46
SPEAKER_00: by being in wrong places,
35:47
SPEAKER_00: by almost,
35:49
SPEAKER_00: we could say,
35:51
having prestige and power become more important than dependency
35:58
and faith.
35:59
And I think that,
36:00
not to level everything,
36:02
but there's this through line when all of these
36:05
issues and scandals come about is that old adage that you and I
36:09
have talked about,
36:10
SPEAKER_00: absolute power corrupts absolutely.
36:12
And it doesn't even have to be a huge dose of it,
36:16
even a crumb of power or position,
36:19
status.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: If that becomes the thing that you're protecting,
36:25
SPEAKER_00: if that status,
36:27
that position becomes more about self-preservation than
36:32
actually what originally
36:34
SPEAKER_00: just motivated the person before that,
36:36
then that's when you're going to find yourself in a wrong place
36:39
at a wrong time
36:40
SPEAKER_00: making wrong decisions.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: you're trying to act in self-preservation mode.
36:46
That's kind of what David was doing when he was covering the
36:48
dust over everything.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: He's in self-preservation mode.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: I need to protect this thing that I got.
36:54
When the whole point was,
36:56
that position was given to him by God in the first place.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: He was the youngest son of Jesse out of all of them.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't really have been him other than God's choice of him.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: Which is just to say that...
37:11
SPEAKER_00: The through line of a lot of failures,
37:13
but also the through line of sin itself is almost this failure
37:19
to understand our
37:20
SPEAKER_00: absolute dependency on God.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like this amnesia of need.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: We don't feel or we don't sense our absolute—like the hymn,
37:33
SPEAKER_00: I need thee every hour,
37:35
SPEAKER_00: I need thee every second—
37:37
SPEAKER_00: There's almost like sin almost like forms this amnesia where like,
37:43
SPEAKER_00: no,
37:44
SPEAKER_00: I can get by in my own ability,
37:45
in my own agility to move over the situation or navigate this
37:50
thing and really...
37:52
SPEAKER_00: And that's what Nathan's word does to David.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: That's what Jesus' word does to the Pharisees.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, wait, wait, stop.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: No, you can't.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: And here's,
38:01
SPEAKER_00: like,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: it's,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: again,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: a preaching of law to the sinner to confront them in the midst of this...
38:09
SPEAKER_00: storm of sin that they've created for themselves.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: And I think it does go to the fact that sin is, is blinding.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: It's just a blinding thing.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: And it goes to the point of you almost become your own God.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: It's that version that you see over and over this pattern of,
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Genesis 3 all over again.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: All over again.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: And why do they act like this?
38:28
Well,
38:28
because they do become somewhat of an ambassador for God,
38:31
and they have this power.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: And power is something that God has.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: And we don't always want to give God power.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: People, humanity likes it sometimes.
38:39
Some people don't like it,
38:40
and they get it,
38:40
and they're like,
38:41
I don't want all this power.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people, they get it.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, even a crumb of it.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: Outside of the church,
38:46
SPEAKER_01: you can see where people just never been in charge before,
38:48
SPEAKER_01: and they get in charge of something in their life,
38:49
SPEAKER_01: and next thing you know,
38:50
SPEAKER_01: they're a drill sergeant,
38:51
SPEAKER_01: and they're going to run this ship because it becomes,
38:53
SPEAKER_01: and they're in charge,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: and it's like this drug to them almost,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: and it's like it blinds them,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: and they want to become their own gods.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: And then why do they go into this self-preservation mode?
39:01
Because they don't want to lose what they have because now
39:02
they're starting to put
39:03
SPEAKER_01: their treasures in earthly things.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: And not in heavenly things.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Why?
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Because, well, I like it on earth.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: I like my status on earth here.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: And I like the possessions I have on earth here.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: And if I get caught with this sin, I might lose my status.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: And I might lose my job.
39:17
I might not have the wealth I have or whatever I have or the
39:20
Wi-Fi,
39:20
all these things.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like storing your treasures on earth rather than heaven,
39:25
SPEAKER_01: going against all these concepts.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think, I mean, let's be real honest.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: We know about Michael Tate's and the Steve Lawson's and...
39:32
SPEAKER_01: There are obviously Zacharias's and plenty.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: We can keep on going.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: But how many pastors are out there?
39:37
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean one thing I love about Mike Winger,
39:39
SPEAKER_01: if you follow him,
39:40
is he's always trying to out these people who are abusing
39:43
people in their flock.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: The flock will come out and say, he's doing this.
39:47
He's stealing or he's lying or he's been doing all these things
39:50
biblically incorrect.
39:51
And a lot of times these pastors will have these henchmen that
39:54
will almost protect
39:55
them and just kind of – it's almost like a dictatorship where
40:00
they'll get rid of
40:01
SPEAKER_01: their political enemies almost.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: And they'll all of a sudden start lying about them to protect themselves,
40:06
and there are a lot of pastors out there who have not been
40:08
ousted because they
40:10
SPEAKER_01: continue to kick dirt over their tracks.
40:12
And that happens all over locally,
40:14
globally,
40:15
wherever you're at,
40:16
and people will often say…
40:18
SPEAKER_01: People come to me like,
40:19
SPEAKER_01: well,
40:19
SPEAKER_01: I know this pastor has been doing this,
40:21
SPEAKER_01: and so many people have tried to stop him.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Why does God allow it to happen?
40:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: Maybe because the gospel is being preached.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
40:28
But it doesn't mean that there aren't punishments that God is
40:30
going to deliver them now.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that God won't expose them now, or even worse.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: It might mean that God is going to eternally punish.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: We don't even know.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to judge salvation one way or the other.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: But some of these pastors may not even—I'm not saying they're not saved,
40:44
but some of them might not be and might have eternal punishment
40:47
coming if they
40:47
SPEAKER_01: don't rectify it now on earth.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's a really interesting thing to get into there,
40:53
but that's a big thing that not all these people—it's kind of
40:56
like all the
40:57
SPEAKER_01: criminals we find,
40:57
SPEAKER_01: how many criminals are really out there?
40:58
SPEAKER_01: It's probably tenfold.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: You look at the prisons,
41:01
how many murderers and bank robbers and all kinds of other evil
41:04
doing all kinds of
41:04
SPEAKER_01: stuff.
41:04
There's a lot of people that don't get caught because they do
41:06
cover their – and
41:07
probably more people cover their tracks than come out and put
41:09
their hands up in the
41:10
SPEAKER_01: air and say,
41:10
SPEAKER_01: you caught me.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's a really interesting thing.
41:14
And again,
41:14
that's why I love that method of like what you're saying with
41:17
Jesus in the parable.
41:18
It was the Sadducee and the Pharisees pointing that out or how
41:21
Nathan approached
41:21
SPEAKER_01: David is because we love –
41:25
the things we have so much we don't naturally as a knee-jerk
41:27
reaction we don't
41:28
we're gonna at least at first want to hold on like i don't want
41:30
to lose this i
41:30
don't lose this and that's why i love about how even in the
41:33
it's supposed to be
41:33
like this in the american system where they have that image of
41:35
the judge with the
41:36
scales and she has a blindfold on which is really interesting
41:39
why because if you
41:41
know the person or it's yourself you start to change your tune
41:45
which is even like
41:46
SPEAKER_01: you know i mean like it's really interesting like
41:48
SPEAKER_01: I found people in sin before or whatever,
41:51
and the person that really likes them will discredit it or it's
41:54
a lie or it's not
41:55
SPEAKER_01: as bad as it looks.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: However,
41:56
if you would have went in and told them it was somebody else
41:58
and they didn't know,
41:59
SPEAKER_01: they probably would have condemned it more.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: So it shows even if it's not yourself,
42:03
SPEAKER_01: if it's your friend,
42:04
SPEAKER_01: and I mean you and I have seen this before in places where it's like,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: well,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: they weren't that bad,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: and they did a lot of good things in the past,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: and they did all these things.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Well,
42:11
SPEAKER_01: if you didn't know this person,
42:12
I called him Joe Schmo from Texas instead of this person in
42:15
Pennsylvania you know.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: Would you have the same reaction?
42:18
SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: So it shows that it can not only blind ourselves to our own sin,
42:23
SPEAKER_01: it can blind our reaction to other people's sin,
42:26
SPEAKER_01: which we have to take a biblical approach.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: And how does God see this?
42:29
SPEAKER_01: There is no partiality.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: We cannot show partiality to ourselves.
42:32
We cannot show partiality to other pastors we love because we
42:35
had a really good
42:36
relationship with them and they did a lot of good stuff for me
42:37
and my family.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: We just have to call it as we see.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to hate them and condemn them to hell.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: That's not the way to act.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: But there is an appropriate thing that
42:44
SPEAKER_01: You can call sin a sin,
42:45
SPEAKER_01: call a spade a spade,
42:46
SPEAKER_01: and don't cover up your own sin,
42:48
SPEAKER_01: and don't cover up for somebody else's sin,
42:50
SPEAKER_01: which you see so often.
42:52
And this brings me back to the reason why in a lot of my
42:57
writing or a lot of other
42:58
SPEAKER_00: places,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm really striving to emphasize this hermeneutic
43:04
going to the Bible and seeing the words of God's law and the
43:07
words of God's gospel.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: And this isn't just like a Lutheran thing.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: It's not just a thing that Martin Luther coined,
43:14
SPEAKER_00: although he really strongly developed it,
43:16
but it's this way in which we can understand the Bible in terms
43:19
of God's law of
43:20
SPEAKER_00: demand,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: which exposes our need,
43:23
SPEAKER_00: and then God's word of gospel,
43:24
SPEAKER_00: which fills us with that need with Christ himself.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: Which is just to say, and not to be really reductive, but a lot of these
43:34
SPEAKER_00: scandals or failures,
43:36
I think they come from a place of failing to preach God's law
43:39
and gospel to
43:40
SPEAKER_00: ourselves.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: And instead,
43:42
SPEAKER_00: it's like you were saying,
43:44
SPEAKER_00: we're getting so caught up in the treasures of this world.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me of what Jesus says.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Remember when Peter cuts off the ear of Malchus,
43:55
SPEAKER_00: and Jesus is like,
43:57
SPEAKER_00: my kingdom's not of this world.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: I think he says that before Pilate,
43:59
SPEAKER_00: but regardless,
44:00
SPEAKER_00: he's making the same point in both instances where it's like,
44:03
my kingdom's not of here and it's almost like leaders who get
44:08
caught up in all this
44:09
stuff they've become enamored by that little germ of an idea
44:14
that no this kingdom
44:16
is here and now and i have to protect it i have to preserve it
44:20
and i'm very much um
44:23
SPEAKER_00: almost irreplaceable to the mission of that kingdom when in fact
44:28
humility the word of law should make us understand that no and
44:33
also the word of
44:33
grace makes us understand that we're number one we're not that
44:37
important number two
44:38
this kingdom is not of this world and number three the kingdom
44:41
is a gift that god
44:43
gives and that he he's the one that's building we're not
44:45
building we're announcing
44:46
that it's already coming the kingdom is already here in christ
44:49
by faith which is
44:50
just to say that all all of that self-preservation all of that
44:54
self-justification
44:56
SPEAKER_00: It's not only a fool's errand,
44:57
but it's almost an impotent way in which to go about trying to
45:03
bring about pardon
45:04
or trying to bring about some sort of release from all of that
45:07
guilt and shame
45:08
SPEAKER_00: because it won't actually work in the end anyways.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of this goes back to –
45:14
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes,
45:15
SPEAKER_01: again,
45:15
we have to just read the Scripture honestly and stay in it
45:17
daily and evaluate our
45:18
SPEAKER_01: lives honestly,
45:19
SPEAKER_01: especially as leaders.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: When you're a leader of a place, evaluate how you're living.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: Are you getting caught in it?
45:24
SPEAKER_01: Are you in a wrong place?
45:26
SPEAKER_01: Are you in a place that you could be potentially sinned?
45:28
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of these people,
45:30
SPEAKER_01: what you hit on there is I've known of a pastor before that was in a sin,
45:33
and he tended not to preach on the sin that he dealt with
45:36
because it hurts a little
45:37
SPEAKER_01: bit more.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times you don't want to talk about things you're guilty of.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:40
And we can sometimes want to get away from things or not read
45:42
certain passages,
45:43
SPEAKER_01: and that's why you've got to take the Bible in its entirety.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: You've got to reflect on your life.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really healthy.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Even you talk to psychologists in the secular world.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: They'll say it's a good thing at night to reflect on your day.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: How did your day go?
45:53
SPEAKER_01: How did it go?
45:53
SPEAKER_01: What are the things you did well?
45:54
SPEAKER_01: What are the things you did negative?
45:55
SPEAKER_01: What are the things that could have went better?
45:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's a good way to evaluate yourself.
45:58
Look in the mirror because a lot of times as leaders you can
46:01
get so caught up,
46:01
SPEAKER_01: and it is a busy life when you're a leader,
46:03
SPEAKER_01: especially I'm sure as these quote-unquote celebrities are.
46:06
Or you're living so fast,
46:07
you're not doing a lot of reflection,
46:08
evaluating your life.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: Are you living in a Christlike manner?
46:10
SPEAKER_01: Are your eyes on the eternal or are you looking at earthly things?
46:14
SPEAKER_01: Are you worried about preserving certain status?
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Why are you doing the things you're doing, right?
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's where a lot of these things are.
46:20
A lot of them,
46:20
of course,
46:21
did it for personal pleasure,
46:22
and they put pleasure over God's word.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: But then sometimes, why did they hide it for so long?
46:27
SPEAKER_01: Why didn't they come clean?
46:28
Why didn't Michael Tate come clean back in 2004 when he said
46:31
this started?
46:32
SPEAKER_01: Why did it go for two decades until it came out?
46:35
And was it because he wanted to continue this lifestyle because
46:38
he liked what he
46:39
SPEAKER_01: had and he knew if he came clean,
46:41
SPEAKER_01: he would immediately lose it?
46:42
SPEAKER_01: And it is a scary thing,
46:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure,
46:44
to know when the consequences of your sin could really not only
46:47
ruin your status
46:48
SPEAKER_01: but your livelihood as it is.
46:50
But again,
46:51
knowing that God's in power when you start to look at it that
46:53
way,
46:53
it can be scary.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: But that if you come clean,
46:55
SPEAKER_01: God's going to love your heart and you're coming clean,
46:58
and God will have a plan for your life if you trust in him and
47:01
you honestly want to
47:02
SPEAKER_01: be obedient to him and want to live the right way.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: He's not going to drop you on your face per se.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: You still will have repercussions, I'm sure.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: But the longer you go, I think the worse it gets.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's what we used to see the consequences continue to grow.
47:14
And you can think that – and I'm sure maybe even – I keep using
47:17
Michael Tate just
47:18
SPEAKER_01: because he's fresh on the mind,
47:19
SPEAKER_01: but it went over for 20 years we know now.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people think, well, I'm getting away with it.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't have any repercussions because nobody is finding out about it.
47:26
And the whole time you forget that God has been like – almost
47:29
like a camera has
47:29
SPEAKER_01: been following you broadcasting every day,
47:32
SPEAKER_01: all day,
47:32
SPEAKER_01: not only your body but your mind.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: which is almost even a scarier thought.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: Way scarier.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
47:37
that he's actually looking at your mind and you're sitting so
47:39
many times in your
47:40
SPEAKER_01: mind that you aren't in the body.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you haven't been getting away with any of this.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: And I hate to say it,
47:44
SPEAKER_01: but God's,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: at some point,
47:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:47
SPEAKER_01: we say this to the unrepentant sinner.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: You only have so much time before,
47:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:51
SPEAKER_01: even in Noah's story,
47:52
SPEAKER_01: you only had so much time to get on the boat.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: You didn't have forever.
47:55
You could just say,
47:55
well,
47:56
you know,
47:56
I'm doing this and God hasn't made any floods come yet.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, God hasn't returned yet.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: So I can keep living in my sin.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: At some point,
48:03
SPEAKER_01: His grace, that has to come to end.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: There has to be a wrath or a justice part coming in.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: We know that for the end of time.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: We know that for the stories of Noah, many other stories.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: And it must be the same for our lives.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: You can't keep getting away with these sins forever.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: So how can we as...
48:18
SPEAKER_00: not just leaders in a church,
48:19
SPEAKER_00: but how can the church respond in all of these different,
48:24
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: I think there's,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: concentric circles of places where the church is,
48:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:31
SPEAKER_00: really responsible for their response.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: So, like, let's take, for instance, let's go through, we have, like,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: In each scenario,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: we have a victim,
48:38
SPEAKER_00: we have a culprit,
48:38
SPEAKER_00: and we have sort of the collateral damage.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really interesting to talk about the victim,
48:46
SPEAKER_00: the one who suffered throughout all of this.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: How can the church respond graciously?
48:53
SPEAKER_00: To them and help them be restored to truth,
48:56
SPEAKER_00: to faith,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: because as you said,
48:58
SPEAKER_00: maybe some of these who are directly involved,
49:01
SPEAKER_00: they're not just like frustrated,
49:02
SPEAKER_00: but they're actually,
49:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:04
SPEAKER_00: to use Paul's word from the pastoral epistles,
49:07
SPEAKER_00: their faith has become shipwrecked.
49:09
And it's also another interesting nuance only because like in
49:12
David's prayer of
49:13
SPEAKER_00: repentance in Psalm 51,
49:15
SPEAKER_00: he cries out against God and God only have I sinned.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: So like is he – like what is he doing there?
49:21
SPEAKER_00: Is he like forgetting like Bathsheba and what he did to her and Uriah?
49:25
SPEAKER_00: So like how can we as the church when we're confronted with this –
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Really gut-wrenching.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, we can call a spade a spade.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: It's an awful scenario that we have to deal with, so to speak.
49:39
But how can we respond in compassion and grace to the person
49:44
who's been victimized
49:46
SPEAKER_00: through all this?
49:46
SPEAKER_01: That's a really great question.
49:47
I think sometimes they might be the first ones we go to look to
49:50
restore and to help out.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately,
49:53
SPEAKER_01: a lot of times in these celebrity situations,
49:56
people want to figure out that that's the focus of the pastor
49:59
or the person in
50:00
SPEAKER_01: charge.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: How do we fix their lives?
50:02
SPEAKER_01: How do we get them back to being restored as a good Christian individual?
50:06
SPEAKER_01: And you forget about these people who were harmed by them,
50:09
SPEAKER_01: especially when it becomes a sexual assault.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: The spouses and the kids and everything.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: How do you handle it?
50:14
And I think they're the ones you have to even worry about more
50:17
in a sense.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean you have to equally – you don't have to worry about all of them.
50:20
But I think that's the people that actually get left in the
50:22
dust a lot of these
50:23
SPEAKER_01: times because you'll have people from both sides.
50:25
Well,
50:25
they were a good pastor,
50:26
and we should still give them the whatever.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's like you have this wife over here in tears.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: He's up on stage.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: She's humiliated with him.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes –
50:36
SPEAKER_01: I keep going back on the tape,
50:37
SPEAKER_01: but in his situation,
50:38
SPEAKER_01: there were other men that were physically affected,
50:40
SPEAKER_01: right?
50:41
SPEAKER_01: So they are – so how do you – I think you have to focus on them.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: You have to meet their needs.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: Tell them it wasn't their fault.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: They're not the reason this happened.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: It was the sin of another that they were affected.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Teach them how the Bible says sin affects others, right?
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Sin affects other people.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Like even in the story of Uriah,
50:56
SPEAKER_01: we know that Uriah was killed for that,
50:57
SPEAKER_01: but we don't always consider –
50:59
SPEAKER_01: that the way Uriah was killed, other men had to die in that battle.
51:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: And the reason—and they foolishly,
51:03
SPEAKER_01: like,
51:04
SPEAKER_01: basically said,
51:04
SPEAKER_01: go out in the front lines,
51:05
SPEAKER_01: put them out there,
51:05
SPEAKER_01: and foolishly go up there so you get shot with the arrows.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: Knowing that he's going to put other people in harm.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: So not only did Uriah get killed,
51:11
SPEAKER_01: a lot of other people died for it,
51:13
SPEAKER_01: and they're going to,
51:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:13
SPEAKER_01: be an eternally— I don't think they're going to ask him.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we're going to focus on David's sins then,
51:17
SPEAKER_01: but,
51:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:18
SPEAKER_01: hypothetically,
51:19
SPEAKER_01: in my mind,
51:19
SPEAKER_01: I think,
51:20
SPEAKER_01: like,
51:20
SPEAKER_01: David,
51:20
SPEAKER_01: how come—like,
51:21
SPEAKER_01: what were you doing?
51:22
SPEAKER_01: We all— What was with that, man?
51:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what's going on here?
51:25
SPEAKER_01: All because of that?
51:26
SPEAKER_01: But it's a reminder—
51:28
And we want to go talk to the victim and say – in another way
51:31
of saying other
51:32
SPEAKER_01: people's sins affect you,
51:33
SPEAKER_01: and this is why sin is such an ugly thing.
51:36
And a lot of times sins,
51:36
we want to say that we're the ones that will be harmed by sin.
51:39
But I think sometimes it's worse when you know that your sin
51:41
harms other people
51:43
that didn't choose because we at least deserve our punishment
51:45
in our own mind.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Like,
51:46
SPEAKER_01: well,
51:46
SPEAKER_01: I chose to do this,
51:47
SPEAKER_01: and this is my actions,
51:48
SPEAKER_01: but it's so much worse when it affects everybody.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: innocent people.
51:52
And so you want to remind them,
51:53
I think,
51:53
that you were an innocent bystander.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: You were an innocent victim in all this.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: The Lord loves you.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: The Lord hasn't abandoned you.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: Actually,
52:01
SPEAKER_01: the Lord wants to draw you near,
52:02
SPEAKER_01: and he's the one that can restore your trauma,
52:05
SPEAKER_01: whatever trauma you're going to have,
52:06
SPEAKER_01: your emotions.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: You can rely on the Lord to restore you.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think you focus on them, make that a big focus.
52:13
And a lot of times people will say,
52:14
well,
52:14
can that person be a pastor again or not?
52:16
Well,
52:16
I think the answer would be definitely not until these things
52:19
are restored with people.
52:20
Down the line,
52:21
if you still have people that are really traumatized,
52:23
that's going to be hard.
52:24
You can't put them to the side,
52:25
which,
52:25
again,
52:25
often happens,
52:26
unfortunately.
52:27
They're using the secondary thought,
52:28
which I think they need to be the primary focus.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: Primary, 1,000%.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: And focusing on the idea that...
52:35
whatever occurred isn't their identity their identity is in
52:38
christ for them which
52:41
again brings them to not only an an outside word of identity an
52:45
outside word of
52:46
gospel but something that's yes outside of them that's reliable
52:49
that's sturdy
52:50
SPEAKER_00: that's that idea that you know from the psalms that
52:53
SPEAKER_00: I think it's David,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: actually,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: ironically enough,
52:55
where he says that God pulled his feet out of the miry clay and
52:59
planted his feet on
53:00
SPEAKER_00: a rock.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: That rock is the sturdiness of God's truth,
53:04
SPEAKER_00: his word of promise for us,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: which,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: of course,
53:06
SPEAKER_00: is embodied in Christ.
53:07
But emphasizing that for the person that suffered whatever
53:11
horrible ordeal...
53:14
SPEAKER_00: is with grace and compassion,
53:16
SPEAKER_00: and I would also say patience,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: being slow to understand as they process,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: but always reaffirming the fact that their identity is secure in Christ.
53:27
SPEAKER_00: That's who is the one that has made them righteous,
53:31
SPEAKER_00: that keeps them righteous,
53:33
SPEAKER_00: that makes them clean.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: I think of that scene...
53:37
uh from um um zechariah chapter three you know with that vision
53:43
of joshua before
53:44
the high priest and you know he's there with these filthy
53:46
garments and like you
53:48
could apply it to the perpetrator but you could also apply it
53:50
to the victim like
53:51
SPEAKER_00: they they feel dirty they feel ashamed they feel embarrassed
53:56
But all of that is taken away,
53:57
and it's Christ who gives him the new robes.
54:02
SPEAKER_00: It's Christ who gives us our identity.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's the point of emphasis,
54:06
SPEAKER_00: I think,
54:07
SPEAKER_00: for those who've been victimized,
54:10
SPEAKER_00: is that this is what's secure.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: And all of these other factors, they can try and discombobulate that.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: They can try and...
54:17
dissuade you of who you are in Christ but no Christ he's the
54:21
one who keeps your
54:23
faith strong and steadfast yeah that's so true because that can
54:26
be that thing where
54:27
they feel like you said dirty almost and that's a really great
54:29
analogy of Zechariah
54:30
where you feel filthy and it's like that is not your identity I
54:34
like what you
54:34
really said there and then there's also the flip side of all
54:37
this where sometimes
54:38
SPEAKER_01: victims and I just think of one's
54:40
SPEAKER_01: in a different setting where,
54:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:42
SPEAKER_01: the church was robbed by this pastor and he was taking,
54:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:44
SPEAKER_01: 50 to 100 grand or whatever it is.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: And now you can say the whole flock, he stole all their money.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: They're all victims.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: And now you have to have the other flip side.
54:52
SPEAKER_01: So this one,
54:53
SPEAKER_01: they might not feel dirty,
54:53
SPEAKER_01: but they might all of a sudden,
54:54
SPEAKER_01: again,
54:55
SPEAKER_01: kind of what we alluded to earlier,
54:56
SPEAKER_01: they might lump that pastor with God.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's the problem.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: Like,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: well,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: if this is what religion is and this is what Christianity is,
55:03
SPEAKER_01: I want nothing to do with the God of the Bible.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: And we also have to remind the victims.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: And even in those other situations, you know,
55:10
Just because this pastor harmed you or hurt you or he stole
55:13
from you or he sexually
55:13
SPEAKER_01: abused you or whatever,
55:14
SPEAKER_01: that was not God who did that either.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: Don't ever lump that in.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: It's hard for our human minds,
55:18
SPEAKER_01: but don't – because he was a quote-unquote man of God or a leader of God,
55:22
don't allow that to think that God was on board and endorsed
55:25
any of that stuff.
55:27
SPEAKER_01: His Bible clearly states that was not who he was.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: He still loves you.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: He is still the God above all things.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: He's still the one that needs to be worshipped.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: You don't need to walk away from the church.
55:35
I can guarantee you walking away from the church body and going
55:37
back into the
55:37
SPEAKER_01: secular world and the society is not going to be helpful to you.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people do.
55:42
I know some people that are still I'm still trying to encourage
55:44
to come back into
55:45
the fold because they still feel traumatized after years of
55:48
what a pastor did.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: And they still can't believe they would ever want to step into a church.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: They can't trust the church ever again.
55:53
SPEAKER_01: And so that's the point.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: I understand you can't trust humans,
55:56
but trust that God's word says that what's best for you is to
55:59
be around a community
56:00
SPEAKER_01: of believers,
56:01
SPEAKER_01: encouraging each other,
56:01
SPEAKER_01: fellowshipping each other.
56:03
not putting what the one psalm says do not put your faith in
56:05
princes and that's a
56:07
really good one to hit on these situations because that's
56:09
what's happening is we
56:10
put so much faith in that these people although we're told over
56:13
and over again
56:13
nobody's perfect we still sometimes in our mind imagine well
56:16
this pastor would
56:16
never do that or this singer because they're a christian man
56:18
they would never do
56:19
that and what you're doing there is putting your faith in a
56:21
prince so when that
56:22
prince falls your faith fails that's why you shouldn't put your
56:25
faith in princes
56:26
always put your faith in god know that these people are
56:28
representatives and when
56:29
representatives of god fail you still god has not failed you
56:32
and don't quit
56:32
SPEAKER_01: on God because these other ones quit on you.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: There's this posture both for those who've been victimized,
56:39
SPEAKER_00: but also for those who are part of,
56:41
SPEAKER_00: like we could say,
56:42
SPEAKER_00: the collateral damage.
56:44
The ministry that needs to occur is almost like helping them
56:49
graciously and
56:50
SPEAKER_00: patiently lean into the Word,
56:52
SPEAKER_00: not into...
56:54
the person who like maybe introduced them to the word,
56:57
introduced them to the gospel.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: No, lean into the word.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: That's what's true.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: Again,
57:02
SPEAKER_00: that's what is going to be sturdy and steadfast,
57:05
SPEAKER_00: regardless of what occurs with this person or that person or whatever.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: What never changes is exactly what you're saying is this word.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: And so lean into the word.
57:14
SPEAKER_00: And that may sound...
57:17
It may sound elementary or basic,
57:19
but I think what so often happens is that.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: There's this reaction of, oh yeah, I can't ever believe that again.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: No, it's true regardless.
57:29
SPEAKER_00: It's true no matter what.
57:31
SPEAKER_00: So lean into the Word.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: So how can we then at the church...
57:35
respond to the culprit respond to the person who sort of caused
57:40
this implosion
57:41
because there's this whole debate around debate discussion
57:46
there's been lots of
57:46
lengthy discussions throughout church history regarding pastors
57:50
elders overseers
57:51
SPEAKER_00: whatever name you want to give and
57:54
SPEAKER_00: If they can be restored, can they be restored?
57:57
SPEAKER_00: What's the process of restoration?
57:59
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
58:00
And again,
58:00
I mean,
58:02
I think the simple answer is there's no one right rule.
58:08
SPEAKER_00: Again, it's kind of a nuanced thing.
58:10
SPEAKER_00: It goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning,
58:13
which is it kind of depends on the response of the person in
58:18
the middle of it all.
58:19
Are they going to be like David in 2 Samuel 11,
58:25
where he's trying to cover up everything?
58:27
Or is it going to be David from 2 Samuel 24,
58:31
where he's like,
58:32
no,
58:32
I immediately did wrong.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: How can I fix this?
58:35
SPEAKER_00: How can we, as the church or fellow leaders of the church,
58:41
SPEAKER_00: and minister to these who have failed, so to speak?
58:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: I think it goes back to what you kind of said.
58:48
SPEAKER_01: Be patient.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: No knee-jerk reactions because you're going to get it from both sides.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: You're going to get the ones who,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: and I get it,
58:54
SPEAKER_01: like the victims are going to say,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: or people that saw the victims are like,
58:57
SPEAKER_01: This guy's done forever.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: He says he's disqualified and deep.
59:01
SPEAKER_01: Disqualified means you're out.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: You're out forever.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: You get disqualified for competition.
59:04
SPEAKER_01: You can't win the competition.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: There's going to be people that will say that.
59:07
Then there are going to be the people that loved the pastor and
59:10
he did a lot of
59:11
SPEAKER_01: great things and loved the band and said,
59:12
SPEAKER_01: you know what?
59:13
He can be back up on stage if he goes through these steps and
59:15
he does this,
59:16
SPEAKER_01: and they're going to want to maybe rush him out sometimes.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: I think it's somewhere in between, and sometimes not.
59:21
Sometimes – I don't ever think you rush the person out there
59:25
under a year and get
59:25
SPEAKER_01: them back up there.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: If you're trying to rush somebody out there,
59:28
SPEAKER_01: you're trying to put – you're doing something different.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: You're taking God's word.
59:31
SPEAKER_01: You're rushing them out for another reason, maybe a personal reason.
59:35
Some people might be disqualified forever based on their
59:38
attitude,
59:38
based on how they reacted.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: If they really covered up until they finally got caught, I don't know.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: God can still change hearts though too,
59:45
SPEAKER_01: and it would have to be – you really have to see a change in their heart.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: The question would be, well, who decides?
59:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, God will decide, but how does he do that?
59:54
SPEAKER_01: Probably through the victims.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: Are the victims healed?
59:56
SPEAKER_01: Are the victims able to truly forgive?
59:59
SPEAKER_01: is the church.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_01: You'd have to look at the church, the elders, the church.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: How do they feel about all this?
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: How long does it go?
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: But again, it's not a fast process if they're ever restored.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: Are they ever restored to the pastor?
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: Are they just a teacher?
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of these questions you have to ask,
1:00:11
SPEAKER_01: and I think it goes dependent on how the person reacts.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: Maybe the pastor themselves will say, you know what?
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm not cut out for this.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to ever go through that again.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: And that would be a healthy thing to...
1:00:19
be completely out of it what gets interesting though um there's
1:00:23
another element
1:00:23
that we don't always consider is so like uh the sexual morality
1:00:27
and whatever that's
1:00:28
like one thing where we have to go through the whole process of
1:00:30
have they gone over
1:00:31
this has their marriage been restored are they with one their
1:00:33
wife is a wife or you
1:00:34
know have they forgiven them has it been long enough have they
1:00:37
proven these things
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: um
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: But a whole other instance is what happens if it was criminal?
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: Because what if they had to go to jail for it?
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: What if they stole and they had to go to jail?
1:00:46
Or what if they sexually assaulted,
1:00:47
like in this case,
1:00:48
and they're in prison?
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: Are they allowed to come out?
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: Can they start a prison ministry as a pastor?
1:00:53
There's a lot of these really nuanced things because we don't
1:00:56
know if Michael Tater
1:00:57
is—we don't know if there will be any prison sentence because
1:00:59
it's a criminal
1:00:59
SPEAKER_01: offense.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_01: Now you've offended the world,
1:01:02
SPEAKER_00: the system,
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: and there's a whole worldly justice on top of the church justice,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: which sometimes makes it really even murky.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: The—
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: Again,
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: it is – I know there's people like John McArthur that say,
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: absolutely,
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: you're disqualified forever.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: And there's people like John Piper that says,
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: depending on you can be,
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: it's going to take a process,
1:01:19
SPEAKER_01: but never – I think the answer is just never immediately.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: I think there needs to be a whole process.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_01: I think there needs to be an accountability system.
1:01:25
if no matter what right and they can be always be restored to
1:01:29
fellowship i always
1:01:29
want to point that out you can always be restored it doesn't
1:01:31
mean being restored
1:01:33
doesn't mean always to pastor it means being back in the church
1:01:35
body being accepted
1:01:36
being part of the congregation again being forgiven in that
1:01:38
sense you can always be
1:01:40
restored to fellowship when you repent whatever leadership
1:01:42
roles are a little bit
1:01:43
different because there's qualifications that's going to take a
1:01:45
lot longer to be
1:01:46
SPEAKER_01: restored if you can be um and i do think it's going to take you know
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: A lot of counseling,
1:01:51
SPEAKER_01: a lot of conversations with elders,
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: maybe monthly meetings,
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: maybe weekly meetings.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: You might get offended,
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: but if it was a sexual morality thing,
1:01:58
SPEAKER_01: you might get checked in on forever,
1:02:00
SPEAKER_01: even if you ever get restored.
1:02:01
Even as a pastor,
1:02:02
you might have to have monthly meetings on let's check your
1:02:05
search history.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: We need to track your internet.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: We need to see – let me know who you've been talking to.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: Have you been talking to any women?
1:02:11
SPEAKER_01: Have you had any women approach you and put you in a bad situation?
1:02:14
Those things might be a permanent—you might always have to kind
1:02:16
of have that answer
1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: to almost somebody who has a disease,
1:02:18
and they have to take this medication regularly for the rest of
1:02:21
their lives.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_01: It almost might be one of those situations,
1:02:23
SPEAKER_01: because now we know you're susceptible to the sin,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: and you might fall.
1:02:27
But we do know—to say that somebody could absolutely not—it
1:02:30
might be rare,
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: and I wouldn't say everybody ever gets restored,
1:02:33
SPEAKER_01: and it might not even be a common thing to get restored to a pastor—
1:02:37
But the hard thing I have with the MacArthur take on this that
1:02:39
they can't ever is,
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: how could you even have Paul write the New Testament?
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: If he was killing Jews, you could say, or Christians kill Christians.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned Peter.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: Peter, yeah, denied him three times.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, he denied Jesus in front of people.
1:02:51
SPEAKER_01: How could you ever say he's going to do this again?
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, the Lord can change the heart.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think Peter's reaction is probably in tears.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: And he even screwed up after he was restored.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_01: He even screwed up after that.
1:02:58
And he's,
1:02:58
like,
1:02:59
hanging out,
1:02:59
and he's afraid to hang out with Gentiles in front of the Jews.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: He's still doing those kind of things.
1:03:02
It's like it shows that we have a sinful heart,
1:03:04
but the Lord can change those things.
1:03:06
And I would imagine if you're truly repentant and you're truly
1:03:09
sorry and you've
1:03:09
SPEAKER_01: truly been restored by the Lord,
1:03:11
you're going to be very conscious of those sins to avoid them
1:03:14
and know they're your
1:03:15
SPEAKER_01: pitfalls and set up barricades.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_01: I think you would want to as a pastor,
1:03:19
SPEAKER_01: once you get back on the pulpit,
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: you'd want to set up these accountability partners.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_01: You'd want to be open together.
1:03:24
SPEAKER_01: and honest,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_01: because if you get caught a second time,
1:03:26
it would be hard for me to believe that you could ever be—once
1:03:28
you get to that
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: point,
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: this is getting a little tricky about restoration now.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you still can.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: It would be a lot harder, I think, in those situations.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think it's an instant thing,
1:03:38
and it might be safer for some pastors to go just a different
1:03:41
direction and be
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: comfortable.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe if they still want to be some kind of leadership role,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: maybe they help out in the church in other ways.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_01: But maybe over time—and again,
1:03:49
it's a case-by-case basis—if their heart was truly repentant
1:03:51
the whole time,
1:03:52
SPEAKER_01: if the person was covering their tracks for a while,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_01: that's another questionable thing.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_01: But again, I think it is at the individual.
1:03:57
But to say completely no would be hard for me biblically
1:04:00
because the Lord can change the hearts.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
1:04:02
But to want to rush somebody back in and say they're such a
1:04:04
good teacher and I
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: think they should get back in the pulpit might be for the wrong reasons,
1:04:07
SPEAKER_01: too,
1:04:07
SPEAKER_01: because the Lord can always bring somebody into the pulpit to fill that.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_01: And again, we sometimes think we're more important than we are.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_01: Pastors can be looked at as people as more important than they are.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_01: God can always fill the pulpit and bring a new person in to speak.
1:04:20
So we don't need to rush the person because of how great they
1:04:22
were with their
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: sermons or anything like that.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_01: We need to bring them in for the right reasons and take our time.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_01: Be patient.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think it comes back to almost,
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: especially,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: I think this can apply to each of these,
1:04:34
SPEAKER_00: like the concentric circles of this thing that we've been talking about,
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: but especially to the culprit,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: is almost separating restoring their soul versus restoring their status.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, it's not about restoring them to a position.
1:04:50
That's very ancillary,
1:04:51
very even tertiary in terms of the overall scheme of things.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: But how can we restore their soul first?
1:04:58
to god and that involves yes preaching the words of law to them
1:05:02
showing them the
1:05:03
ways in which they have sinned against god against other
1:05:06
individuals going through
1:05:07
that process of bringing them to that point and then also
1:05:10
preaching the words of
1:05:11
gospel to them showing them that there is grace to be had yes
1:05:16
even for perpetrators
1:05:18
SPEAKER_00: and no maybe the restoration of their soul
1:05:22
um to god and to others may not mean restoration of position um
1:05:28
but it can be we
1:05:29
can't always just rule that out but i think even for we could
1:05:32
say the victims
1:05:33
restore like restoring their soul to understanding who they are
1:05:37
in christ who they
1:05:38
are in the eyes of the father i that i think is and ought to be
1:05:42
the heart of the
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: church
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: is remembering,
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: is almost remembering how important,
1:05:50
SPEAKER_00: but also how passionate God is about souls.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: He quite literally sent his son to die for souls.
1:05:58
And so that means both to those who've victimized others,
1:06:03
but also who are victims themselves.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: They are the ones to whom the church ought to be ministering to,
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: ministering in grace,
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: ministering,
1:06:12
SPEAKER_00: yes,
1:06:13
maybe that grace is a little bit fiercer because you have to be
1:06:15
with certain
1:06:16
SPEAKER_00: individuals,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_00: but taking on compassion,
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: taking on consideration,
1:06:21
and speaking to restore the souls of individuals to the heart
1:06:25
of the Father.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
1:06:26
and I think that is the most important thing because I think
1:06:28
you do set aside the
1:06:29
can it be a pastor again thing is the least important in all of
1:06:32
these things.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: That would be the—at some point,
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: like I said,
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: you could maybe get to that,
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: and it could maybe happen.
1:06:37
But I think the most important thing is getting them back to
1:06:40
the Lord,
1:06:41
both sides.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_01: The victims, remembering, like you said, their identity in Christ.
1:06:45
They weren't a part of this,
1:06:45
that the Lord can remove what they're feeling.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: He can restore them.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: And also that pastor, whoever fell, that they need to be restored.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_01: They need to get right with God,
1:06:57
SPEAKER_01: and they need to focus more on focusing on the Lord,
1:07:00
SPEAKER_01: focusing on Scripture,
1:07:01
SPEAKER_01: living it out,
1:07:02
and that they're forgiven also too because you can also beat
1:07:06
yourself up forever,
1:07:07
SPEAKER_01: and we're all sinners.
1:07:10
And it is a hard time when you're publicly – when you've
1:07:12
publicly fallen in such a great way.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think the whole point is remember who God is.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: Put God in his rightful place.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_01: Put ourselves in our rightful place.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:07:21
Victim,
1:07:22
the pastor,
1:07:23
people who love the pastors,
1:07:24
people who love the victim,
1:07:25
all these things.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: Remember who God is.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_01: Remember what God's law says.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_01: Remember who we all are, that we're all sinners.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: We're justified by grace.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_01: Nobody's perfect.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: And I just – keeping it in the context of everything that the Bible says.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_00: Lean into the Word.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to make that sound simple, but lean into the Word.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_00: That's what's true.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_00: As Christ says, His Word will never pass away.
1:07:47
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to the Ministry of Minded podcast.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for clicking play.
1:07:51
You can find this podcast on Spotify or Apple or Substack and
1:07:56
also on YouTube.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_00: So you can find the video version there, audio version everywhere else.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: I hope this has been an encouragement to you.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: Make sure to check out the notes for this show.
1:08:06
I'm going to include Pastor Eric's session from his Trimmed and
1:08:10
Burning Bible study
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: on those passages of David's sin with Bathsheba.
1:08:14
SPEAKER_00: It'll be really helpful for you,
1:08:16
but also some other stuff that you might find really helpful in
1:08:19
the notes.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: So thanks so much for listening.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you on the next episode.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: Blessings.