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Better Offline - Gambling Is Eating The World w/ Nick Devor · KDAV Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm, of course, your host,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Ed Zitron. Better Offline. Now, everyone, I know how much
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: you love gambling. And those of you who have been
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: gambling on the cockroach races, please use code ZITRON. 50%
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: off big boy cockroaches. Those are the ones that will
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: mostly lose you money, but you could win 100 to 1.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So anyway, we're sponsored by Cockroach Races. Now, putting all
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: that aside, joined by Nick Dever, who's a reporter at
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Barron's covering gambling in the prediction markets. Nick, thank you
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: for joining us. We legally now cannot talk more about
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the Cockroach Races, however.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: It's true. They're unregulated. And as fun as they may be,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: we do have to turn a little bit of a
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: blind eye. But I'll see you there tonight.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, of course. And also, most of my
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: money is in that. But let's talk about the lesser
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: forms of gambling, by which I mean, of course, prediction markets.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: What has been going on there recently? Because since you
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: last joined, I've only seen things get more demented.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Indeed. Yeah, since we last spoke, I think... I don't know,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: first quarter of the year, prediction markets have continued to
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: just go absolutely crazy. We're seeing record trading volumes basically
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: every Sunday. Now, why every Sunday, Ed? Can you guess
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: what happens on Sunday? I can guess.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: It's when the pigskin gets chucked around.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, these platforms position themselves as
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: financial instruments, places where you can hedge your risk. And
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: lots and lots of Americans are hedging their risk to
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: losing football games. I don't know. Basically, prediction markets are
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: going crazy because they have started offering and have continued
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: to offer the equivalent of parlay bets. What is a
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: parlay bet?
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So when you place a bet on two individual outcomes,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: so that's like the Patriots win And I actually don't
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: watch sports. So my, the amount of like, um, examples
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be able to provide is very low,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: but that's fine. Um, you know, uh, the Patriots win
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: and this, um, this player scores this many touchdowns. If
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: I connect both of those bets and if I'm right
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: on both, then I get a massive payout because I'm
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: basically tying together multiple discrete bets into one large wager. Now,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: these are super profitable for your traditional online sportsbook because
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: the odds are so long. And you can make parlays
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: with a lot of legs. Individual bets are called legs.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: So with each leg that you add, your odds of
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: winning go down and the odds of the sportsbook taking
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: your money go up. So they're very profitable for the sportsbooks.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and prediction markets have started to offer them as well. Um,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: and they're, they're less profitable for the prediction markets cause
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: they just take a cut of trading fees. But, um, yeah,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: people love to sports bet and they love to tie
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: multiple bets into one. And that's, I have to, I
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: have to ask though, how is this legal?
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Because even gambling on sports, which I truly don't do,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: but I've tried to see like how far you can
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: push them with like VPNs just to sign up. And
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: they're actually surprisingly widely at stopping that. I, How is
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: this legal? Because I thought that there was very strong
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: regulation on sports betting in general, because I know DraftKings
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: and the other one, I truly don't remember. FanDuel. FanDuel,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: there we go. How is it legal for Calci and
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: them to do it?
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Right. So DraftKings and FanDuel, BetMGM, places like this, they
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: operate on the regular sportsbook model, which is regulated state
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: by state. In 2018, there was a Supreme Court decision
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: that basically opened up sports betting, which was illegal prior,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: except in a few jurisdictions, to any state that wanted
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: to legalize it could. And each state is going to
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: have its own regulatory regime. Think about it like how
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: marijuana legalization worked. If a state wants to legalize it,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: it can under its own terms. So prediction markets are
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: not technically sports betting. It's a financial exchange. So if
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: you and I agree that there's a 50-50 chance of
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: an event happening I think it's 50% yes. You think
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: it's 50% no. We each put up 50 cents into
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: a contract. And once the event happens, whoever is right
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: gets the other's 50 cents. So the contract is worth
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: a dollar once the event is over. And it's a
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: contract between two people? It's a contract between two people, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: They're called event contracts or binary options because they only
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: have two outcomes. And usually they're tied to yes or
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  Speaker 2: no questions. So will this team win? Will this player
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  Speaker 2: score more than seven touchdowns or whatever? that kind of
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  Speaker 2: a thing. And so because they're event contracts, because they're
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  Speaker 2: technically financial instruments, um, they're regulated at the federal level
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: by the commodity futures trading commission. It's a small regulatory
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: body that handles options contracts, um, things like that nature.
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  Speaker 2: And because they're financial products, you know, they're legal nationwide.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: You know, you, once you turn 18, you can trade stocks.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Once you turn 18, you can trade options. Once you
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: turn 18, you can trade sports options tied to the
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: outcome of a sporting event. So on an underlying basis,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: compared to a sports book, they are different. But from
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: a consumer point of view, they're identical product experiences. And
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: just to hammer that idea home, when you download DraftKings
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: and you open the app in New York, for example...
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: You open it up and you start betting. The odds
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: that you're seeing and the betting that you're doing, that's
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  Speaker 2: on a traditional sportsbook model because New York has legal
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: sports betting. But if you then fly to California and
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: open up the same app on your phone, the app
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  Speaker 2: looks identical. The odds are identical. The betting behavior is identical.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: The whole UI, UX, everything. But the underlying product that
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: you're using is a prediction market because sports betting is
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: illegal in California. So even though there's an underlying difference
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: from a consumer point of view, it's the exact same product.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: It's the exact same experience. And that's why prediction markets
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: were initially seen as kind of a threat to the
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: sports books. But the sports books realized that they can
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: use prediction markets to sort of like unlock a bunch
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: of new customers in states like Texas, California, um, a
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: lot of Florida that don't have many legal sports betting options.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: But just so we're clear, do the DraftKings of the
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: world now do prediction markets as well?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. DraftKings and FanDuel and all
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: of them, they also have prediction markets. So DraftKings, their
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: tagline for all of their ads this year is that
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: we're finally available nationwide. You can DraftKings anywhere you are
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: in the country and the The ad campaign is like
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Kevin Hart and one of the Jonas Brothers, I think.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Kevin Hart? I can't believe Kevin Hart would sell out.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Sorry, that's a joke.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: For like 13 people who listen to this show and
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: be like, ha ha, yeah, got him. And if you've
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: never watched the Z-Way interview with Kevin Hart, I cannot
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: recommend it enough. Z-Way, fantastic podcaster she is. Anyway, moving
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: on from Kevin Hart, I... Is there anything stopping this?
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Are there any efforts to try and stop this from
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: existing or at least slow it down? Or is this just,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: is this the new normal, at least until we have
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: different people in Congress or what have you?
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Definitely. There's a lot of efforts.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of efforts to
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: slow this down on a lawsuit basis. Um, dozens of
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  Speaker 2: states I think have, um, at this point sued Cal
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: she or poly market or the other prediction markets. you know,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: alleging that they're offering illegal gambling in their state. And
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  Speaker 2: those cases are working their way to the Supreme Court.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to like get too into too many specifics,
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: because honestly, like every four days, there's another legal development
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: that kind of changes the landscape. But one thing is
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: for sure, I think anyway, is that this is going
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: to wind up at the Supreme Court, it will need
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: to be decided there, whether or not, you know, swaps,
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  Speaker 2: as they're known, these binary options tied to sporting events
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  Speaker 2: are swaps or whether they're sports bets. That's the fundamental question. Whether,
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  Speaker 2: you know, in 2011, when Dodd-Frank, I think that was
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  Speaker 2: the year, when Dodd-Frank was passed and we brought swaps
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  Speaker 2: under the regulation of the CFTC, whether Congress intended at
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: that point that, you know, there would be sports betting
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: with these swaps. And, you know, I've spoken to Gary Gensler,
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  Speaker 2: who was the chair of the CFTC at the time
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  Speaker 2: and famously chair of the Securities Exchange Commission under the
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: former President Joe Biden. And he has told me, no,
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  Speaker 2: that was that was not the intention of Congress. Congress
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: did not.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was barely the intention of Congress to stop anything.
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  Speaker 1: I have a lot of cynicism about the regulation from
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  Speaker 1: that time. But yeah, it's just it's yet more times
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  Speaker 1: in which regulation just created a new industry rather than
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  Speaker 1: suppressed one.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's a question of whether
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  Speaker 2: congressional intent actually matters, but it seems pretty clear that
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  Speaker 2: the congressional intent was not for there to be nationwide
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  Speaker 2: sports betting through financial contracts. But whether or not the
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court adheres to what was meant at that time
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  Speaker 2: or what... I've had people in the prediction market world
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  Speaker 2: be like, Well, you know, the law is very clear
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  Speaker 2: that it allows this. And, you know, I just don't
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  Speaker 2: think that the Supreme Court really cares how clear the
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: law is at any given time. They're going to kind
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: of interpret it how they choose. So.
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  Speaker 1: that's what that's what's so strange about all this as
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: well because finance and contracts and like financial court those
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  Speaker 1: things are fairly well regulated but it seems that these
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  Speaker 1: companies have just kind of used the regulation to make
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: themselves legal rather than i don't know i i realize
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: i'm kind of dithering on this point but It almost
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: feels like they just found a loophole by ignoring everything.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: It's just because you can't do options. You could do
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: options trading in most states, but there are limitations to
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: how much margin you can have. There are very fixed
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: things you can and can't do. But with this, you
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: could just do anything as long as you're, what, 18, 21?
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Is there even an age limit? Yeah, it's 18. That's nationwide. Oh, good.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: That's even better. The argument for– the whole point with
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: event contracts and the idea that they– what they're supposed
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: to be doing, if you look at old interviews with
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Tarek Mansour, it's the co-founder and CEO of Kalshi, the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: example he always uses is Brexit. So he was a
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: trader or something at some firm before he founded Kalshi,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: and clients wanted a way to hedge their exposure to Brexit.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of difficult to do that with like
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: a package of stocks. What stocks do you buy or
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: not buy to estimate an outcome of Brexit? It's kind
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: of difficult to do that. But a much cleaner way
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: would be, well, what if I can just trade an
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: option on like, yes, Brexit will happen. And if it
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: does happen, then I get paid because that's actually what
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I'm looking for. So that's where binary contracts can actually
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: be useful. That's like an actual use case for prediction
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: markets is this hedging um, opportunity. And that's where I,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that's totally valid. That's like the
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: point of a financial market. Right. But now, but the
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: thing is like now their primary business is sports. And
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: so like when, you know, it's kind.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Of a pushback about what the primary function of a
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: financial market on that one though, because living in the beautiful,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada with our beautiful slot machines. One
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: of the things that I've noticed about the casinos is
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: they very rarely let you bet on, for both the
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: house's benefit and otherwise, bet on binary things. Maybe you'll
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: do a yes or no, but even red or black
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: on a roulette table is 48.9%, what have you. But
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the big thing is they don't let you bet on
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: just like, how many fingers am I holding up or
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. That's the common, it's like, and the
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: idea of like, oh, I can hedge whether an outcome
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: happens directly feels like it's not even in, it's not
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: even a financial market anymore. It's not, you're not investing in,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: you're not actually investing in anything. And this is because,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: this is why, by the way, Mormonism just made prediction
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: markets against the religion. I don't know if you heard
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: about this. No. What? Mormonism.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: So Mormonism, I gotta look this up. Mormonism just made
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: prediction markets because the argument is, yeah, it's also illegal
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: in Utah.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is that.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: And to be clear, we are not a pro-Mormon podcast,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: just getting that out there. Yes, it's fostering greed, particularly
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: amongst youths while producing nothing of value. Gambling is, gambling
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: is built on the desire to obtain something for nothing.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: And this is the one and only thing I agree
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: with the Mormons on, because that's the thing. That's not
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a financial market.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: A financial market is a market for financial instruments. Unless
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: you were saying that, I guess that there are probably
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: financial instruments that aren't about, well, I mean, even commodities though,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: you're still betting, you're still actually, I said betting, they're
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: going to get me for that one. But you're still
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: investing in it. You're still investing in a thing. With this,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: it's I'm investing in and whether a thing happens, I guess.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that someone's going to email me and say, well,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: there's an example here in finance. I don't think anything
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: like that should exist in finance. I also think that
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: we need to massively pare back almost every financial instrument.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: I think that we are too speculative. But it is
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: interesting as well seeing the Mormons coming out as a
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: moral side on this. But that's what it comes down to.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: That's the real problem with this. It's not really betting
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: on anything. But I also think that you should make
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: DraftKings illegal and Fangio illegal and Polymarket and all them illegal.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Send them a big boat. Send them away.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Well, the thing is about on the pointing of whether
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: this is, I guess, the big question has been whether
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: prediction markets are investing or not. Should they sit alongside
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: your 401ks, your ETF stocks, whatever? Is that what people
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: are suggesting?
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Is that being put on the table?
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Well, if you open Robinhood right now, you can liquidate
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: your stock position and go put it all on football
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: with prediction markets in the same app.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Is there a prediction market ETF though, which is just
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: a fund of different options that you could buy into
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: that usually it's like stocks or bonds.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: There's no prediction market ETF, but I have seen that
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: there is something, and I need to do more reading
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: and reporting on this, so I don't want to get
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: too into it and tell your listeners wrong, but everyone
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: should go look up hockey ETF because I'm pretty sure
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: that you can now trade an ETF tied to the
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: performance of hockey teams. And yeah, I'll make a comment
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: on that. That is.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: volatility shares has filed to launch an exchange-traded fund for
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: every NHL team, a set of products, unlike anything currently trading.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: And I'm just not going to read the rest of
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: that article because I'm going to put a gun in my...
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Moving on. But this is the thing. Again, talking of Vegas,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: though we obviously love our gambling and we love our tax,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: we don't have to pay state tax, but there is
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: also a There are big guardrails around gambling there. And
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I should be clear, this is not me being pro-gambling
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: so as much as I am pro-responsibility and restraint, wherever
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: it can be found. But there are big, like, if
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: you look too young in a casino, they can and
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: they will come over and tell you to leave. If
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you look like you are too trashed, they will actually
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: pull you from a table. They're hesitant to provide credit.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: But I read a story the other day. I think
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: it was one of the DraftKings one. It was ProPublica.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I might be wrong on this one, where the story
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: was they pretended to be a problem gambler and within
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: a week they had a personal sales rep.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, the thing is, Ed, like
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: what is the difference between a problem gambler and a
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: profitable customer at a sports book? I would argue that
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: there is not one. Something like, you know, I think
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: there was a research in the business journal of gambling
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: and sports, but I can't remember the exact journal, but
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Some research published that something like 5% of sports bettors
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: are responsible for more than 80% of all of the
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: profit and revenue that sportsbooks generate. So a huge portion
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: of profits come from a very small, potentially problematic source.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And that ratio roughly holds across vice industries. It's the
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: same in marijuana, alcohol. This is called the addiction surplus.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: So it's this argument that the addictive nature of the product,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: you know, inherently makes it easier to sell to people
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: who are more prone to addiction. And, you know, some
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: researchers have argued that this leads vice industries to tamp
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: down on consumer protections because, you know, on a gambling site, um,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: their revenues are tied one-to-one to consumer losses. So everything
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: they do to protect consumers literally cuts into the bottom line. Jesus.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I think we need the Nevada Game
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Commission to come down on these people. That's the actual
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: thing that I don't get, though, because you spend your
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: time in Vegas, people are like, oh yeah, the NGC
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: will mess you up, but it's somehow not effective on
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: this one?
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's only so much they can do
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: to require them to you know, do certain customer protection measures.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: We're also just in the U.S. like way far behind
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: other countries. You know, in the U.K., for example, there's
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: a lot more stringent consumer protection and regulations on gambling
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: than there is in the U.S. just because for sports
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: betting in particular, you know, it's less than a decade
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: that we've had this kind of nationwide fascination and thing
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: with it. We're a much more, the U.S. is a
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: lot more like historically in the way that we think
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: about gambling, we think about Vegas, we think about slots,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: whereas in the UK and some more European countries, sports
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: betting is synonymous with gambling in a way that it
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: really wasn't in the US until 2018.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it just feels like this isn't slowing down.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: It's very worrying to me.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we are seeing a bit of a
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: taper in like and a plateauing, I should say, in
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: terms of total dollars wagered on online sports books. But yeah, generally, yeah,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: generally gambling participation, um, is going up. I would say
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: more people are gambling than ever. That's an easy claim
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: to make. Um, 50% of American men under the age
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: of 49 have an account on a digital sportsbook. So
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: that's half. Half of men under 50 in the U.S.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: have an account on a digital sportsbook. So yeah, it's prevalent.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: You watch NFL, and it's kind of built into the
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: way that the commentators talk about the game now. It's
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: generally unavoidable, I would say. And I think that there's
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: a growing... betting fatigue among the broader population. And we're
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: starting to see that show up in rising tax rates
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: in some states that have legal sports betting and a
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: general questioning of whether state governments should have done this.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: But the problem is legalizing gambling is a great way
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: to raise state revenues and get more money into the
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: coffers of a state without raising taxes.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, does, does Kalshi, does Kalshi and Fanjul and all
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: them actually provide state tax revenue?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the sports books do. The problem is for states
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: is that the prediction markets don't because they're federally regulated,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: so they don't pay state taxes. Um, but you know,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: if a state is like, well, I kind of, you know, Ohio,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: for example, governor Mike DeWine, I think he's still the
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: governor has, yeah, cause the election's coming anyway. Governor Mike
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: DeWine has called his decision to, you know, legalize sports
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: betting in Ohio to sign that bill into law one
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: of the greatest mistakes of his, you know, 50-year political career.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: He has said that he regrets it deeply. But the
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: problem is all of that tax revenue that comes from
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: sports betting is now funding things like state pension funds
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: and infrastructure. And so once the state is seeing that money,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: it's very hard to then walk that back because they're
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: putting it to use, you know.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like data centers, data center construction. I
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: don't know. There's all sorts of weird things that are
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: happening with that as well. I don't want to get
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: into because I'm already pissed off enough already.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: By the way, I was correct. It was a ProPublica
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: story by Jake Pearson, which I'll link in the notes,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: about how he blew $ 1, 800 in one night by chasing
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: glasses with bigger beds. And then the next day he
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: got invited to audition for its VIP program.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Truly evil.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I see there's nothing other than actually evil. And I
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: don't know. I know that casinos did the same thing.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not defending them, but it's, I don't know. There
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: are also big signs that say gambling problems. I find
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: this whole thing just kind of repulsive and it's the
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: America didn't need more gambling. While we are on the
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: subject of problem gambling.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: You have a little story.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: You're working on. I don't mean little in the small way.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's going to be very interesting that you're
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: working on that will be out by the time this
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: goes out, just to be clear.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Indeed, yes. I am working on a story publishing, hopefully
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: today as we're talking, about the National Council on Problem Gambling.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: This is the largest nonprofit dedicated to mitigating problem gambling,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: gambling addiction harm, advocating at a federal level for more
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: funding for gambling addiction issues. such and such. They're the
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: main voice advocating for gambling addiction in the United States.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And over the past, since January 2025, their organization has
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: been going through a lot of turmoil, to put it gently.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: So the way that your viewers are probably most familiar
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: with the National Council on Problem Gambling is they used
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: to operate 1-800-GAMBLER. So when you watch a gambling advertisement
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Right now at the bottom, you'll see, you know, gambling problem,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: question mark, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. So last year when, so, okay,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I'll just, I'll give you the whole, there's a lot here.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: So I'll give you. Yeah, please, please. So the 1-800-GAMBLER,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: the phone number is owned, the rights to it are
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: owned by a affiliate organization of the NCPG, National Council
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: on Problem Gambling Association. in New Jersey. So it's a
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: New Jersey affiliate of the NCPG that owns 1-800-GAMBLER. And
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: from 2021 or so, they were licensing the rights to
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: operate 1-800-GAMBLER to the NCPG. And the NCPG got like
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: a $ 6 million donation from the NFL to basically modernize
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the problem gambling helpline system.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: How did they modernize it?
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they basically, you know, That's a great question. They
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: put more focus on data collection. So there was a
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: question about, you know, you call the number and instead
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: of getting help right away, you're being asked survey questions.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: That's something that I found in my reporting was happening.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And basically, there were questions about whether or not individual
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: call centers in individual states were up to snuff, as
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: it were, for the NCPG. So the NCPG decided that in... Nevada,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: the Nevada call center taking calls from, you know, area
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: codes in Texas, Nevada, and, oh, I'm sorry, forgive me,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: the New Mexico call center, you know, whether or not
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: it was providing high quality care to people dialing 1-800-GAMBLER.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that was happening at the
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: New Mexico call center run by, you know, just a
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: handful of people, there's really not a lot of people
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: that work in problem gambling. They had a Navajo speakers
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: online at all times because the Navajo Nation is in
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: New Mexico. You know, Native Americans have a higher rate
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: of gambling problems than the rest of the population. And
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: they would get a lot of calls from Navajo Nation,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: you know, seeking to speak to Navajo speakers, work with them,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: et cetera, administer therapy help. And the NCPG made the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: decision to reroute calls away from the New Mexico call center,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: you know, basically with very little explanation. And this led
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: to a number of calls being dropped, a number of
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Navajo speakers not getting help in a timely manner, calls
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: getting transferred back to New Mexico in the middle of
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: the night. Something similar happened in Florida, where the Florida
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: call centers were not up to snuff in the view
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: of the NCPG, and Florida was rerouted away. So New
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Jersey was getting wind of all of this and was like,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: all right, guys, we need to exercise more control over 1-800-GAMBLER,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: you guys are getting... You're being a little too overzealous
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: with what you're doing. And the NCPG freaked out. There
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: was a legal battle sparked between the NCPG and the
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: New Jersey Council. And what happened is eventually the NCPG
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: lost control of 1-800-GAMBLER. So after spending $ 6 million from
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: the NFL and putting all this effort and money into
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: upgrading the system, they lost it all.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: One of the things that happened when they were modernizing
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: the hotline is they worked with a lot of gambling
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: firms to get it included into all of the ads.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: So all of these gambling operators, your DraftKings, your MGMs,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: et cetera, had 1-800-GAMBLER in their advertisements. And then all
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, the organization that was operating it lost
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: control of it. So the operators are like, wait, what
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: are we doing? Are we promoting the right resource? Basically, again,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: cutting into the way that service was happening. And then
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: in January, the NCPG hires Heather Maurer, the new executive
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: director of the NCPG. She has a reputation as an
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: effective fundraiser, but she has no prior experience in problem gambling.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And then in April, she tells board members that there
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: is a potential new donor to the organization. One of
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the roles of a board of directors at a nonprofit
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: is to vet you know, corporate partnerships, talk about donations,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the terms, et cetera. And so for that reason, it
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: would be normal to have a board meeting. What wasn't
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: normal is that before the meeting could begin, Heather Moore
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: insisted that everybody sign an NDA.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Just before the meeting.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Just before the meeting. And that had never been done before.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: That's very normal. Everyone needs to sign a non-disclosure agreement
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: before I can tell you about this potential new partner. Great. Okay, fine.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Everyone signs. And then Heather Moore reveals, okay, it's a
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: $ 2 million donation, second largest in National Council on Problem
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Gambling history, and the potential donor is Kalshi, the prediction market.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: So this raises a lot of red flags pretty much immediately.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: A number of donors to the NCPG are in lawsuits
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: with Kalshi. A number of them have competing business interests.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: And Kalshi, as we were talking about earlier, being regulated
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: by the feds, doesn't have the kind of consumer protections
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: that are built into the regulations that govern sports books
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: at the state levels. So there's a question of whether
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: or not Kalshi is like in alignment with the NCPG's mission.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: So all of these questions are coming up at the
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: board meeting. And Morris says, you know, well, unfortunately, we
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: can't do anything about that, because I actually already signed
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: the deal with Kalshi. It's too late. Okay. And then
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: like two weeks later, News comes out and it basically,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: you know, drops like a bombshell in the, you know,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: gambling addiction advocacy community. I talked to this guy, Mark Lefkowitz.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: He's been involved with the NCPG since the late 80s.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And he said, you know, the NCPG taking Cal Street's
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: money is like, quote, a national council on teenage sex
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: abuse taking money from Jeffrey Epstein, end quote.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: People are not happy. People are not happy about this donation.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, a bunch of other stuff at
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: the NCPG starts going down. You know, the woman who
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: is the director of programs for the NCPG, her name
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: is Jamie Costello. she resigned after, you know, four years.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: She was the longest running staff member, you know, and
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: she was overseeing all the helpline operations. So she had
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: a very important job at the NCPG and, you know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: their staff was already spread pretty thin. So she put
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: her three weeks in and, you know, it wasn't connected
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: to the Kalshi donation. She told me, you know, quote,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: I hold myself to things like respect and compassion and open, uncomfortable,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: transparent communication. And that just wasn't what I was experiencing
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: as a staff member, end quote. So she resigns and
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: then gives three weeks notice on a Monday and Tuesday
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: morning she gets an email. It's her last day. You're done.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: And she gets cut out of her systems. So any
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: assistance that she could have given to her staff members
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: to help continue to run the National Problem Gambling Helpline,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: which is like the widest known addiction resource in the country,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: is now lost. And so there's a lot of turmoil
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: going on there. And then that was on Tuesday. By Saturday,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Heather Moore turns in her resignation to the board as well,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: after fewer than 10 months on the job. So, you know,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: amid all of this, a bunch of donors to the
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: NCPG have been pulling out. The gambling regulators in Ohio
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: and Michigan, the problem gambling councils in Nevada and Washington
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: all pulled out of the NCPG after decades-long relationships. Basically,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: The upshot is that at a time when gambling addiction
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: and gambling participation are on the rise, because remember, they're
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: tied together, the main organization that advocates at a federal
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: level for there to be federal funding for gambling addiction
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: and research, all of that stuff, they are in complete disarray.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: And there's no one else to pick up the slack, really.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Pretty much, yeah. There's no one else that's necessarily... seen
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: as kind of the top person, the top voice. And so, yeah,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: it's a very, I think, you know, I hope that
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: your listeners go on and read the story because, you know,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: it's quite a, like a step-by-step retelling of what's been
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: going on. But yeah, I mean, it's pretty concerning for
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of advocates and people that work in the
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: problem gambling space because this organization, which for the past,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: you know, since the 70s has been the primary org um,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: you know, coordinating response to rising levels of gambling addiction
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: is now, um, you know, in the wind as it were.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: So I just want to repeat this email me. If
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you hear any gambling ads on this show, anything like that,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I want to hear when I'm off the show, fuck
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: these people.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I find that I didn't think that things would have
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: improved since we last talked, but the idea of the
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: main gambling addiction site being fucked over, uh, not cited.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: The idea of the main gambling helpline being basically destroyed
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: and the organization behind it is extremely grim. Is there
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: any effort to make any of this illegal, though? Is
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: there any efforts to try and bring this down as
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: we wrap up here?
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Honestly, not really. I mean, it makes so much money, Ed.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: That's the thing.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: How much money does it make in comparison to the
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: other industries?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: How much money does the gambling industry make?
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, specifically the prediction markets and such.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Well, prediction markets, they don't have as great of revenues
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: as the sports books. I don't have those numbers right
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: in front of me for the comparison.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: But I mean, even with the online sports books, the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: DraftKings and the FanDuel and such.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're making a lot. I mean, suffice it to
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: say that their margins are very good because they are
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: selling a product that is very easy to sell. it's
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: easy to sell and get people into gambling because it
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: makes your brain feel great. People that were selling cigarettes
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: did not exactly have a very difficult job because people
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: were addicted to cigarettes. And the main way that people
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: engage with gambling these days, online sports betting, is very frictionless.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: It used to be that you would go to the
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: horse track and there were a dozen races in a
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: single day. And all of your gambling, the highs and
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the lows of it, were spread out throughout the course
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: of a day. Now, within a single quarter of a
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: football game, you can be placing dozens of bets every minute.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: And it's in your phone. Everyone has a casino in
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: their pocket these days. And as I say, there is
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: less and less ability for the people who want to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: do good and protect people who are being harmed by
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: this product to actually step in and make things happen.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that people can do? I'm trying to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: find some way through. Are there organizations that are worth
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: donating to? Jesus Christ.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I can make that kind
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: of recommendation, but I would just say that everyone... Here's
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: my one thing. If you have a friend who ever
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: says to you, oh, I lost X amount of money,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: so I have to keep betting to win it back,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: You need to have a conversation with them right then
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: and there. That's called chasing losses. That's one of the
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: strongest predictors of gambling-related harm. And, you know, gambling addiction,
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I know you keep searching for a silver lining here, Ed,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to just keep bombarding you with depressing statistics.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Sounds good. Gambling disorder, you know, is one of the
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: hardest addictions to necessarily spot. There's no urine test you
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: can take that shows you've been spinning a roulette all night, right?
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: There's no track marks on your arm. People can hide
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: their financials from their families. But the difference is that,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: you know, gambling addiction is one of the most dangerous.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: If you have a gambling disorder, there's a 20% chance
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: that you'll attempt suicide in your lifetime. That's the highest
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: of nearly any mental health disorder. It's got a ton
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: of comorbidities. You're more likely to have a substance use disorder, depression, anxiety.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: It's associated with homelessness, crime, you know, financial desperation, child neglect,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: domestic abuse, all of this stuff. And, um, you know, again,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: there's no federal funding. There's no federal funding for gambling, um,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: addiction research. Um, none, zero, uh, compared to.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, then I think the thing
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: you have to do is if you have a friend
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: who has a gambling addiction, do not try and just
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: morally attack them. That's the one thing I'll say. I've
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: known a few people who have had that in Vegas.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: It's like, be there and listen to them and try
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: and work out what it is they're trying to feel
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and why they're trying to feel that. I think it's
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: the best I can say.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Nobody starts drinking because they think they're going to become
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: an alcoholic. Or because they're having a great time. Because
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: they're having a great time. And I think that there
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: is a kind of notion that gambling addiction is a
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: moral failing. And if you were only responsible enough, you
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have a gambling addiction. But this idea of responsible gambling,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: that's been pushed a lot by the industry because you'll
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: note that puts the onus on the consumer to be
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: responsible rather than on the corporation that's selling the addictive
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: product to do so in a more responsible or better way.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: So this idea that individual consumers have the power to
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: stop themselves when they begin to experience addictive behaviors, it's
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: just incorrect. And I think hopefully as it becomes... more widespread,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: which is very unfortunate. Hopefully one of the positives is
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: that is that there's more understanding of the fact that
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: this is just brain chemistry. People can't help themselves. And so,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: you know, we need to be there for them and understand,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: you know, what they're going through and not moralize it.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Hey, I like that as an ending point. Nick, where
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: can people find you?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: You can find me on barons.com, B-A-R-R-O-N-S. Or if you're
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: in New York City, you can pick up a copy
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: of our printed issue out on newsstands every saturday every.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Week hell yeah and you can find me on better
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: offline.com and google.com slash poison that's where you find me
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: now slash poison all right you've been listening to better
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: offline we're back with a monologue this week cheers Thank
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osowski. You
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: can check out more of his music and audio projects
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: at mattosowski.com. M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I dot com. You can email me at
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: ez at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: you go to chat.wheresyoured.at to visit the Discord and go
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: to r slash betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.