Latest / The Nonprofit Podcast / Ep 193| The Hidden Cost of Silence: Psychological Safety in Nonprofits

Transcript

Ep 193| The Hidden Cost of Silence: Psychological Safety in Nonprofits · The Nonprofit Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to think about something for a second.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: The most honest conversations that you're having right now with your team, where are they actually happening?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: In the workplace itself, in that meeting?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or be honest, are they happening outside of work through text messages, phone calls, or a nearby coffee shop?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because if people are only being real when you're not in the room, is that trust?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or is that survival mode?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: We talk a big game about care and nonprofits, mission-driven, heart-centered, making the world a better place.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: But we don't always extend that same care to the people actually doing the work.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly why we're having a conversation about psychological safety.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean real safety, where people can show up as their authentic selves, kind of admit that they don't know something, where they can make mistakes and speak up without wondering if it's gonna cost them.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: The Nonprofit Podcast, powered by DonorBucks.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to the Nonprofit Podcast.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Brit Stalker, your fundraiser coach over here at Donorbox.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Each week we bring you practical information, clear insights, and inspiration to help you raise more, reach further, and take your nonprofit to the next level.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Today I am so excited.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: I have Tasha Van Black here, y'all.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Tasha is the founder of the Nonprofit Hive, a community platform that connects nonprofit professionals through one-on-one conversations, spaces that we have all been craving for where we can really open up.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Tasha, hey, welcome to the show.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think, gosh, I think you and I met what was it?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah at least, at least two years ago now.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, focused.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's fantastic.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just happy to have you on the show.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So most of us don't really know what this idea of psychological safety is, right?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: But the way that I kind of make sense of it is trying to pull in some of my past lived experience.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And without oversharing, if I may, just to kind of segue to help us with this conversation, I think back to a time I was an executive director, also doing development director work of a small human service agency here in Seattle, three staff, five contractors, 72 volunteers.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember people would come to me and they're like, Britt, you have such a servant type of leadership style, which at the time, like I was like, I don't know what this means.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: But with the staff I manage, even when I thought that I was doing everything I could to make them feel safe, even when I thought that I was being like this compassionate leader, I think back, like some of my staff still held back.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like they had a mask.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking about this.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I necessarily was a bad leader, but I was kind of operating within this system or this culture where people just couldn't fully show up as themselves and let their guard down.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it got me thinking if people don't feel safe with the compassionate type of leader in their own organizations, where can they even go?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess this is where we start here, right?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like you've built this amazing community.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hearing like people are really just able to let their guard down and show up in a way that they can't other organizations.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: What does that tell you about what's missing inside their own nonprofits?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So many great questions.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh even just the idea of psychological safety, I'll throw out a shout out to a past employer because I used to work at a company called TEND and they were very focused on compassion fatigue within the social services sector and trainings around that.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the first time I had ever heard the word psychological safety.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it resonated so deeply for me in my head to go, of course, this is a thing.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, this is something that we need.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And when our leaders don't showcase that for us, what does that do after the fact?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it the culture is really defined often by the leaders.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again, shout out to my friend Evan Wildstein, because when he talks about leadership, leadership doesn't necessarily mean the executive director or your manager.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are many people who are leaders within organizations.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't always have to be formal.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what happened in the Hive, and what's been really special, is that you're just showing up as yourself.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're not representing your organization.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can if you choose to, but that's not what the goal is.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's one-to-one.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: The hierarchy becomes very flat immediately.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can be from, we have people from Heart and Stroke, March of Dimes, these huge international organizations often, and they may show up and have a match who's just someone working frontline employee at a very small nonprofit.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the whole point is to open up these conversations.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not about your performance.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about are you difficult?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are you helpful?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are you negative?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Are you not a team player?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the consequences of being honest are very low in the hive.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we can bring those back to our organizations.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: We can bring that philosophy back.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think that's why there's been an attraction by many in nonprofit to come and have these really open conversations.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you said something about the ability to show up in your community and be honest.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: But with honesty comes silence.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think of the word silence.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it makes me think of the former coworkers where they're amazing.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: If they're ready to kind of take on all the things, they're so embedded in the organization where they're constantly sharing feedback through all the proper channels.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: But then what happens with that feedback?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's completely unheard.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't go anywhere.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think back to this one coworker, like someone who was a North Star, just an amazing person.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't like the leader she was reporting to was authoritarian, but because she felt unheard, her way of coping was silence.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: She completely disengaged.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that kind of makes me think of another question.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: When people don't feel safe being honest internally, you're talking about honesty.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: What does what does that cost them?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And what does that cost the organization long before burnout or turnover even become a thing?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: One set of words I'm going to use, and maybe you've heard this one before.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if people haven't looked into it, I would because it's fascinating.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: But there's actually something called moral injury that happens to us.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And often, again, even the words psychological safety, a lot of these words, compassion fatigue, were co-opted originally from really trauma-based workplaces, right?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: We all we can recognize that those things happen when you're working in a very busy emergency room, when you're a frontline employee at an international aid organization on the ground.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: We knew those things and could recognize that kind of trauma that was happening in those places.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think now we're starting to realize like workplace injury and moral injury happening in the workplace can be in action, like you noted, when you consistently the words we want feedback, and you give feedback and then nothing happens.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that inaction, you know, violation of potentially personal morals, you know, whether there's shame and all of those pieces really do come in.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a part of like there's an institutional failure piece when we we ask for those things and they don't show up.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And with this uh this example of the coworker, you start self-editing, right?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: When when you're asked for feedback and you are like putting yourself out there, and often it's a pretty brave act to say, I think we need to improve on this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's not an easy thing to step up and do.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to then you go, oh, well, they clearly don't agree.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have a discussion about this, but they've done nothing.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you start editing yourself, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you stop naming the risks early because you're not being heard.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you're like, well, this is so small, I'm not gonna do anything.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, that emotional disengagement happens long before you probably are going to actually leave the role or hit burnout, or you know, all of those extra pieces start happening.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and I love the word that you said moral injury.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing that comes to mind with that is it's not just when your feedback is unacknowledged.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Moral injury is when you show up to a workplace and your personal values misalign with your professional.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that I actually I wish I had the survey, but I heard a podcast a few weeks ago, especially in women, when we mask, when our values are in misalignment between our personal lives and our professional, it creates these physiological problems, which is completely horrible for the nonprofit sector, right?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that term moral injury.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about performative care.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: What comes to mind here, and I'm seeing a lot of this hap happening in this sector and on LinkedIn, is more like prescriptive guidance for us.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the onus is all on us, right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's never on the system.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: But like, let me let's call out some of those things.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I know nonprofits, lots of donuts, pizza Fridays, um, unlimited PTO, flexible workspaces, sabbaticals are a thing today, and even fancy retreats to somewhere beautiful.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, all of those things are amazing.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not gonna turn it down, but I'm also thinking like, please fix the mess at work.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, the onus shouldn't be on me as a nonprofit unicorn to fix all of this.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is a systems problem.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what are some leadership behaviors you see that are just well-meaning, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: They genuinely mean to show care, but they end up making people feel less safe.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I don't know if anybody's following along with some of the crazy Reddit Facebook threads about nonprofit, but you know, people say unlimited PTO, but I have actually know of very few workplaces where if you asked for it, it's actually a thing, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um the words like my door is always open, I think actually can be really challenging because is that true?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like truly your door, you if you say it and it's not true, what does that mean?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we do need boundaries, even as leaders, to go, hey, my door is open from one to three on Fridays, and you commit to it and that consistency exists, that's amazing because I think leadership really needs the consistency of always following through is just so important, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when we ask for honesty, I think we all need ourselves and nonprofit to give some space.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's okay to ask for honesty as a leader, go, holy crap, I can't imagine what to do with this right now.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do something with it right that moment.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think getting defensive about decisions immediately, obviously, like that's a really mixed signal to somebody.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think in nonprofit, because we're so emotionally tied to the roles often way more than you see in other sectors.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a passion project.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a, you know, as a founder, I will readily admit that this is my baby.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: The nonprofit has my baby, and I love it, and I feel very strongly about it.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's very easy to say the words like, we're a family and we're all very involved, and this is our project.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then if it's ours, then we have to have room for dissent, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have to have room for people to go, actually, this isn't working, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be really hard, particularly for founders.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think even for small team CEOs, you want that feeling of like we're all in this together.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But then that also comes with family dynamics.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but if I'm asking for people's thoughts, then I'm gonna have to start thinking about those too.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and lastly, I would say I see a lot of discussion about vulnerability and wanting teams to be vulnerable, but only when it's convenient and vulnerability isn't convenient.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, working with people is rarely as easy as we'd like it to be.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Being in community with others, it's messy.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, that's that's the really big thing that we have to accept.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: If we want people to be vulnerable, it's gonna get messy.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's real, that's a really hard line to follow.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, I really love this idea of messy.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because let's be real, we all cause harm.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, yes, accountability, but let's talk about this idea of repair.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think with repair and psychological safety, would you say that this whole practice is a is a practice?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's like not perfect, it's not something that we can just ultimately achieve.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when it comes back to this messiness of being in community with others and being, you know, in relationships with others, we're going to make mistakes.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know a single leader I know who is like uber confident right now in exactly doing everything.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I readily admit that I have no idea what I'm doing some days.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I just, you know, and those are the days that I have to say that, have to own that impact.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it can't just be about my intent, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have, I really do have to own what happens afterwards.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it can't be just apologizing by behavior.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have to be ready to kind of change that, right?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and move that forward.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if we want our staff to participate in in our organizations and really feel safe, we have to follow up publicly and privately with any potential trust that's broken.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one thing I think that hasn't been named here is like we know what psychological safety is and we know what signals to look for, but I have a feeling some of us might try and be like, hey, I just really wanted to be there and to be a really great coworker, but I had no clue.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: How am I supposed to act if I had no clue that this is happening?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as nonprofiteers and leaders, we need to also learn how to read the room, how to read subtle cues.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because oftentimes the harm is never named.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have no idea it exists.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, when we're talking about repair, does that something you feel is innate, Tasha?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: The ability to read between the lines, or do you think that's training that most of us actually need from a professional?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have heard from many that women are more naturally attuned.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think many of us are trained.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And some of it is training from childhood being in potentially unsafe environments ourselves to like read the room and go, oh, how is the emotional barometer here?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I also think looking to my own kids, that I'm looking at it and going, This is a trained skill.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can train this.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, some people may naturally be a little bit more attuned, but I do think it's something that can be learned.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I haven't seen a lot of high social skills trainings, but I think that that is something so valuable and maybe more important, particularly for leadership, than learning how to, you know, run the new AI tool.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm I'm spot on with that.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like we all kind of have this innate sense of an emotional IQ.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: But like you said, it just needs to be kind of upskilled and uh brought to the forefront.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that idea.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: One last question for you.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Many of our listeners, they're at small shops, emerging nonprofits, under-resourced.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I hate to use the word exhaustion, but barely holding it together.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: What's one practical everyday way that they can maintain this sense of safety in their teams if they if they start this week or in the next couple of weeks?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Any ideas?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are a few things you could do, but you know, just if you ask for feedback, you're going to have to assume that you're going to hear something you don't want to hear, but you can't ignore it.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually, I think, better to go, and I did this recently, actually, through my own team and my own extended network.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: What would be a great thing we could do to help support you better here in the nonprofit hive community?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then when someone gave a great suggestion, but it was something we could not do, I actually just posted it back to them and was like, why would this be of such value?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you think we could find funding for this?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I think it's also okay to acknowledge where your organization is at and why some feedback is taken and worked on, and why some is just maybe not possible at this point.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: But could you brainstorm with me, you, the person who gave the feedback, to figure out how we could bring this into reality?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because that acknowledges the feedback while also saying, let's let's figure this out together.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Psychological safety in in many ways is like this multiplier.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because like, let's be real, all the programs are running right, you have strong financials, yada yada.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: But essentially, if psychological safety is that missing gap, like there's no way in heck you can move, you can be innovative.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: People are not gonna lean in, they're not gonna take those risks that really involve a lot of these big problems.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks so much, Tasha.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know you have a million things going on.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're building this incredible community.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Listeners, we're gonna drop Tasha's LinkedIn and also the nonprofit hive link in the show notes.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Anywhere else that uh folks can find you, Tasha?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I am very active on LinkedIn.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Apologies to anybody who decides to follow me because I talk about all things nonprofit and community building there ad nauseum.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just say, you know, whether it's a community like ours or, you know, there's other great spaces out there, hopefully you can get together in person with people.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I think building psychological safety, sometimes in the comfort of strangers, is a great way to start in this sector, broaching some of these challenging conversations that we need to be having in nonprofit.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Spot on.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much, Tasha, for joining the show.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Stick in there with all things the hive, and uh, I'll see you soon.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Britt.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thank you.
• 18:37
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• 18:41
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• 18:44
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• 18:48
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• 18:52
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