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Kingsley Aikins - Why your next opportunity is hiding in your weakest connection · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:14
  Sinead Donovan: Welcome back to everybody to this episode of Difference Makers Discuss.
• 0:18
  Sinead Donovan: Um, I hope you enjoyed part one of our chat with Kingsley Akins.
• 0:22
  Sinead Donovan: Um, we are going to continue our chat with part two, and if you remember, it is about everything to do with networking and how it benefits you, the profession, and indeed your country, as you will hear next.
• 0:34
  Sinead Donovan: But moving on, um, Kingsley, you are doing an awful lot of work and sharing your expertise now in what I kind of call the the net the global network and um the the the diaspora and how countries, jurisdictions engage the diaspora.
• 0:53
  Sinead Donovan: Tell us a bit about that, uh maybe explaining in the first instance the phenomenon of a diaspora.
• 0:58
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah, I mean diaspora is actually two Greek words, dia meaning over and spiro meaning scattering, was first used with reference to the exile of the Jews from Babylon in the 5th century BC, and it was always associated throughout history with Israel and with the Jews.
• 1:13
  Kingsley Aikins: But what was once the preserve of those countries has now kind of gone mainstream.
• 1:18
  Kingsley Aikins: So there's 305 million people now living outside the country they were born in.
• 1:23
  Kingsley Aikins: So that's double what it was in 1970.
• 1:25
  Sinead Donovan: Sorry, 305 million people living outside outside the country they were born in.
• 1:30
  Kingsley Aikins: In other words, you know, mobility uh is has been like never before.
• 1:35
  Kingsley Aikins: And you know, the great migrant uh except in countries like you know, the United States or Canada or Australia, etc.
• 1:42
  Kingsley Aikins: But but so there's huge numbers of people live outside the country they were born in.
• 1:46
  Kingsley Aikins: So are they lost actors or are they national assets?
• 1:50
  Kingsley Aikins: You know?
• 1:51
  Kingsley Aikins: So certainly uh you know, as I said, Israel was the early leader.
• 1:56
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, one of the great leaders in the world, in this space in the world today, is actually India.
• 2:00
  Sinead Donovan: Okay.
• 2:01
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, you think we did an Indian prime minister in Great Britain with an interesting Taoiseach here.
• 2:05
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah, Indians, there's 400,000 Indians in Silicon Valley.
• 2:08
  Kingsley Aikins: Um, they're highly educated, they're really smart, they're hardworking, they're driving the tech industry.
• 2:12
  Kingsley Aikins: Some of the great tech companies of the world are run by Indians.
• 2:16
  Kingsley Aikins: Now, India up till 2002 showed little interest in the Indian diaspora.
• 2:21
  Kingsley Aikins: And in that year, um uh Vajpuri government they instituted a global survey of the Indians abroad, the Indians.
• 2:30
  Kingsley Aikins: And and it was a massive thing, went on for a couple of years.
• 2:33
  Kingsley Aikins: And what this the diaspora of India said to the Indians that you know um they were pretty harsh on them, said you're quite corrupt, you're quite bureaucratic, um, we don't feel we've much say.
• 2:45
  Kingsley Aikins: And they introduced a whole series of different rules and regulations, and they started a conference of the Indian diaspora every year.
• 2:52
  Kingsley Aikins: Thousands of Indian CEOs go back every every February.
• 2:55
  Kingsley Aikins: It's um and and it's it it it they really embraced that whole notion.
• 2:59
  Kingsley Aikins: Modai embraced it this whole notion of kind of global Indianness.
• 3:03
  Kingsley Aikins: So the difference between the state uh and the nation, the state being lines on the map, but the nation being a global notion.
• 3:11
  Kingsley Aikins: So so what was once, as I said, a minority kind of few countries were engaged in this.
• 3:16
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, it's 120 countries now doing this stuff.
• 3:18
  Kingsley Aikins: So I think you know, I'm off to Lanzarote tomorrow to present a diasper strategy to their government there, but I've also done it for the Basque area and I've done it for Catalonia.
• 3:27
  Kingsley Aikins: So what we're seeing is that it's not just countries are doing this, but regions are doing it.
• 3:32
  Kingsley Aikins: So in Ireland, Donegal are all over this, you know, and uh Mayo are doing it, and Cork are doing it.
• 3:37
  Kingsley Aikins: Um and now cities are doing it.
• 3:40
  Kingsley Aikins: So I wrote a desperate strategy some years ago for Copenhagen.
• 3:43
  Kingsley Aikins: Um, we're bidding for a piece of work with Liverpool.
• 3:46
  Kingsley Aikins: We just wrote a desperate strategy for Cornwall.
• 3:49
  Kingsley Aikins: So it's about building networks, but it's also back to something we mentioned a bit earlier.
• 3:54
  Kingsley Aikins: It's this sense of belonging.
• 3:55
  Kingsley Aikins: People want to belong.
• 3:57
  Kingsley Aikins: It might be to a football team or it might be to uh a theater or it might be to a school, but people like to belong.
• 4:04
  Kingsley Aikins: And part of that is belonging to either a country or a region or a place.
• 4:08
  Kingsley Aikins: And it's an interesting phenomenon of our time, made possible by technology and communications.
• 4:13
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 4:14
  Sinead Donovan: That's fascinating.
• 4:15
  Sinead Donovan: And you know, do you know what when you were talking, it made me think of it, it's it's like it's almost like a global alumni.
• 4:21
  Sinead Donovan: So we'd all be, we'd all be, you know, if you're from KPMG or Deloitte or whatever, you have your alumni, and and we're really loyal to that because it's our it's our it's our county jersey almost.
• 4:31
  Sinead Donovan: But this is this is an alumni to the nth degree, isn't it?
• 4:35
  Kingsley Aikins: It is, it's fascinating.
• 4:36
  Kingsley Aikins: And you know, I always used to say when I did my job, I was I was mining for coal and I was mining for diamonds.
• 4:42
  Kingsley Aikins: And in there, you know, in these diasporas are people who are incredibly successful, incredibly uh sense of belonging, etc.
• 4:51
  Kingsley Aikins: You you probably would have heard of the guy called Chuck Feeney.
• 4:54
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, our educational system in this country wouldn't have wouldn't have been where we got to were it not for this one guy who who who who gave away all over the world eight billion, and he was uh he was a radio operator, a US citizen, radio operator in the in in the war in Korea, got demobbed, set up duty free, made a fortune.
• 5:13
  Kingsley Aikins: But he was a disciple of Andrew Carnegie, who is a great Scottish philanthropist, who once said, you know, he who dies rich dies disgraced.
• 5:21
  Kingsley Aikins: So Andrew Carnegie, and all the libraries in this country are Carnegie Libraries, and Andrew Carnegie said that you know you should you should give away your wealth while you're alive.
• 5:31
  Kingsley Aikins: We call it give while you live, rather than hang on to it and then leave it to people who have no idea what they're going to do with it.
• 5:37
  Kingsley Aikins: And Chuck Feeney became a disciple of his and decided to give all his money away, and mostly to education, but but he gave it to Australia, he gave it to Vietnam, he gave it to the US, he gave it to Ireland.
• 5:49
  Kingsley Aikins: Um, he had a lovely concept.
• 5:50
  Kingsley Aikins: He wanted to give away his final check on the morning he passes away because he said, I want my check to the undertaker to bounce, which is extraordinary, but isn't that fascinating?
• 6:03
  Kingsley Aikins: And and Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, you know, who are massively rich philanthropists, etc., they say their hero in life is Chuck Feeney.
• 6:11
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 6:11
  Kingsley Aikins: And this idea of give while you live, because one of the great shifts of money in the world today is the intergenerational transfer of wealth.
• 6:19
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, there's a company in America, Cerulea Associates, and I watched their reports, they came out the other day saying it'll be about 125 trillion is going to be given away.
• 6:29
  Kingsley Aikins: Because you can't take it with you.
• 6:31
  Kingsley Aikins: Chuck Feeney said there ain't no roof rack on the hearse.
• 6:35
  Sinead Donovan: Oh, I just love all these sayings you are coming out with.
• 6:38
  Sinead Donovan: It's just brilliant.
• 6:39
  Sinead Donovan: Um, it's great.
• 6:41
  Sinead Donovan: But as I listen to you, and I am listening, and I'm I'm listening really hardly, um does it just does it does it just come down to values?
• 6:52
  Sinead Donovan: And networking comes a little bit down to values as well, and the values of giving, of listening, of being kind, being empathetic, wanting to hear what others are doing.
• 7:06
  Sinead Donovan: Is it just values or am I making it too simple, Kingsley?
• 7:10
  Kingsley Aikins: Look, I think I think there's two answers to that.
• 7:13
  Kingsley Aikins: Uh when you say those words, I I remember asking my mum when I was a little youngster, saying, What do you think I should be when I grow up, mum?
• 7:20
  Kingsley Aikins: And she said, after a moment's hesitation, she said, Be kind.
• 7:24
  Kingsley Aikins: I thought it was a nice, and I always think about that, etc.
• 7:26
  Kingsley Aikins: On the other hand, I'm not naive enough not to think that a smidgen of self-interest may eventually may enter into some of these activities and relationships.
• 7:35
  Kingsley Aikins: So when we started running these events, like that first dinner in New York, that lost money, that dinner now, that event in New York probably makes three to four million in one night.
• 7:44
  Kingsley Aikins: You know, but it's taken 30 years to get to that stage.
• 7:47
  Kingsley Aikins: Now, why are those people there?
• 7:49
  Kingsley Aikins: Well, they have a particular interest in the cause, and that's great, that's very nice.
• 7:52
  Kingsley Aikins: But they're also there because they want to meet the other people who are there.
• 7:56
  Kingsley Aikins: And they get engaged with these organizations because there's a bit of self-interest in it.
• 8:01
  Kingsley Aikins: When I lived in Australia, I was I was I got to know the PM there, Paul Keating, wonderful guy.
• 8:07
  Kingsley Aikins: And he said, Mighty said in the great race of life, he says, always back self-interest because at least you know it'll be trying.
• 8:13
  Kingsley Aikins: So I you know, I accept that, and I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that, so long as it's not damaging.
• 8:20
  Kingsley Aikins: So uh so it's kind of saying these are win-win situations, you know.
• 8:25
  Sinead Donovan: Okay.
• 8:25
  Kingsley Aikins: What's good for you, it's good for my company, it's good for my family, it's good for my sus general society I live in.
• 8:32
  Kingsley Aikins: Okay.
• 8:32
  Kingsley Aikins: Um so I I'd, you know, be pretty supportive of it.
• 8:35
  Sinead Donovan: Okay, I like that.
• 8:36
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, and I mean, look, you're absolutely 100% right.
• 8:39
  Sinead Donovan: There's got to be there's got to be a bit of self um benefit.
• 8:43
  Sinead Donovan: Self-benefit.
• 8:44
  Sinead Donovan: There doesn't have to be, but quite often that's a motivator.
• 8:47
  Sinead Donovan: I was interested and I was thinking, like when we were chatting, networking is is hard and it's tiring.
• 8:56
  Sinead Donovan: Um and I know you said the difference between introverts, extroverts, and and and um ambience?
• 9:00
  Sinead Donovan: Is that is that what you mean?
• 9:01
  Sinead Donovan: Ambi ambiverts, yeah.
• 9:02
  Sinead Donovan: Ambiverts.
• 9:03
  Sinead Donovan: Okay, sorry, ambient is what you put in the press, isn't it?
• 9:05
  Sinead Donovan: Um what do you do when your and some people use the term when your social battery gets low?
• 9:14
  Sinead Donovan: Um do you do you just know, do you take yourself away and just kind of recharge for a few hours, a few days?
• 9:21
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah, that ambivert thing.
• 9:22
  Kingsley Aikins: Well, look, um there's a guy called Andy La Patta wrote a book, and the book is entitled And Death Came Third, and he said the three great fears people have in life.
• 9:30
  Kingsley Aikins: Um number three is death, right?
• 9:34
  Kingsley Aikins: Okay, number two is walking into a room where they know nobody.
• 9:38
  Kingsley Aikins: We all hate that.
• 9:39
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean that's a struggle.
• 9:40
  Kingsley Aikins: And do you know what people's greatest fear in life?
• 9:43
  Kingsley Aikins: You must know the answer to this.
• 9:45
  Sinead Donovan: It's not public speaking, is it?
• 9:45
  Sinead Donovan: It is public speaking.
• 9:46
  Sinead Donovan: I yeah, I I don't get that, but I'm very lucky, maybe.
• 9:49
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah, you're probably you know you have a natural proclivity towards it, but but people are terrified of it, absolutely terrified.
• 9:56
  Kingsley Aikins: Um I think it was Bill Gates, uh uh Warren Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, one of these guys said that you know person's greatest fear um when they're giving the eulogy or of of their best friends you know being put six foot under, is they'd rather be in the coffin because they're so terrified of having to make a speech, you know.
• 10:20
  Kingsley Aikins: So people do really, really clam up on this one, you know.
• 10:25
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 10:25
  Sinead Donovan: And but but it's so true what you said there, because a lot of people can go, oh well it's easy for you, you you know, you don't you don't mind.
• 10:32
  Sinead Donovan: But whilst maybe personally I don't mind public speaking, I do every time I walk into a room where I don't know people, that does make me very nervous.
• 10:41
  Sinead Donovan: Um but you learn to turn it on.
• 10:44
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah, look, I think there's a few little tips and tricks, etc.
• 10:46
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah that you can you can do.
• 10:48
  Kingsley Aikins: I always think you know, people's name tag is a permission device to talk to strangers, you know, so you immediately you can connect like that.
• 10:56
  Kingsley Aikins: Um I think you can it's very hard to break into a group of three or four people who are having a wonderful conversation together because you just feel you're invading their space.
• 11:05
  Kingsley Aikins: Um, so it's better off to look for ones and twos.
• 11:08
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, my trick always is to be somewhere near the bar because people tend to be turning away with a glass in their hand on their own, you know, so you've got an opportunity to sort of say hi.
• 11:18
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, you just have to get over that initial kind of reticence and and remember that all you have to do is stick your hand out, say hi, my name is, and smile.
• 11:28
  Sinead Donovan: Smile is huge, isn't it?
• 11:29
  Sinead Donovan: Smile is huge, yeah.
• 11:30
  Sinead Donovan: Because generally, if you smile at someone, they will smile back, which kind of gives a natural ease of tension.
• 11:36
  Kingsley Aikins: Correct.
• 11:36
  Kingsley Aikins: They'll smile back even if it's only internally, which you can't see.
• 11:41
  Kingsley Aikins: But uh so yeah, so you know, we all kind of hate that.
• 11:44
  Kingsley Aikins: On the other hand, you know, and we uh you and I have gone to lots of events around town, and very often a company will go and take a table, and it's ten people from that company are sitting around the table.
• 11:55
  Kingsley Aikins: And I mean you want to try and avoid that because you're gonna see those people at work anyway.
• 11:59
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 12:00
  Kingsley Aikins: So it is that it is that challenge of talking to strangers.
• 12:05
  Kingsley Aikins: And I think that we often default away from it.
• 12:08
  Kingsley Aikins: Whereas when you think about it, Shanade, what do we teach our kids from a very young age?
• 12:12
  Kingsley Aikins: We say don't talk to strangers, right?
• 12:14
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:15
  Kingsley Aikins: And yet statistically, our kids are at more danger from friends and family than they are from strangers.
• 12:21
  Kingsley Aikins: So you know, when you think of the facts behind it, it's it's they're gonna things are gonna happen with friends and family.
• 12:29
  Kingsley Aikins: So I think that that um getting over that stranger danger issue is is critical.
• 12:34
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 12:34
  Sinead Donovan: I have a couple more questions for you if that's okay, Kingsley.
• 12:38
  Sinead Donovan: I'm really interested in this difference between introverts and extroverts.
• 12:42
  Sinead Donovan: Do you believe that depending on who you're engaging with, do you change the manner in which you engage yourself?
• 12:49
  Sinead Donovan: So if you're dealing with an introvert, do you use different signals?
• 12:53
  Sinead Donovan: Cues, exactly.
• 12:55
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Kingsley Aikins: Look, I think you can be understanding of where other people are coming from and who they are.
• 13:00
  Kingsley Aikins: But but you don't want to be not yourself, you know?
• 13:03
  Kingsley Aikins: Yeah.
• 13:04
  Kingsley Aikins: And so then I think it's hard to sustain that and people see through it uh if you're being a bit condescending.
• 13:10
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean I I I think people have to take you as you are, and you have to take them as they are, and and mold those those differences together in some way.
• 13:18
  Sinead Donovan: Okay, so it's authenticity, really.
• 13:20
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Sinead Donovan: Um, and then coming up to one of my final questions.
• 13:24
  Sinead Donovan: So you you've mentioned a few times corporates and doing a lot of work for corporates and CEOs.
• 13:28
  Sinead Donovan: Is that because CEOs and corporates absolutely fundamentally understand the value of ensuring their workforce can network?
• 13:37
  Kingsley Aikins: I think what's driving the business that I have so much at the moment is uh the hidden cost of COVID.
• 13:44
  Kingsley Aikins: And the hidden cost of COVID, I believe, is that our networks have shrunk.
• 13:48
  Kingsley Aikins: And we've tended to hunker down with friends, family, and just a few business connections, what I call the inner concentric ring of our network.
• 13:55
  Kingsley Aikins: And we've let slip um the outer concentric ring where we have a lot of weak ties, loose associations, but actually that's where opportunity lies.
• 14:05
  Kingsley Aikins: And I think companies, and the reason I get called in, are facing five interesting challenges.
• 14:11
  Kingsley Aikins: The first one is there's less business development.
• 14:13
  Kingsley Aikins: Secondly, there's less learning on the job, particularly for the next generation.
• 14:18
  Kingsley Aikins: So they're missing out, and we're working from home, they're missing out on all that.
• 14:22
  Kingsley Aikins: There's less serendipity, luck and chance, which we talked about, um, again, because they're just not bouncing into people at the coffee station or wherever it is.
• 14:30
  Kingsley Aikins: There's less company uh loyalty.
• 14:33
  Kingsley Aikins: So no loyalty anymore.
• 14:34
  Kingsley Aikins: People are moving like never before, and there's less company culture.
• 14:37
  Kingsley Aikins: So they're biggies, all those five are biggies, and and that that that blanket covers most of what I'm hearing out there from corporates um and why I'm getting called in.
• 14:48
  Kingsley Aikins: And of course, the senior people in the organization, they realize that actually the technical skills they needed to get their job when they were going through this, um, critically important as they are, become less important as they progress because everybody's got them.
• 15:04
  Kingsley Aikins: You can't compete in what everybody's got, and relationships become more important.
• 15:08
  Kingsley Aikins: And I think that that's the kind of an inflection point that the sea more senior people say we've got to make sure the next level coming through understands that this is an important, really important part of their career development.
• 15:20
  Kingsley Aikins: Because early in your career you get paid for what you do, but later in your career you get paid for who you are.
• 15:26
  Sinead Donovan: It's so true.
• 15:27
  Sinead Donovan: There is that inflection point, isn't there, where your technical can only get you so far.
• 15:31
  Kingsley Aikins: Only get you so far.
• 15:32
  Sinead Donovan: And and to that point of all the things you've said there it is, um so a lot of CEOs are and a lot of leadership teams are encouraging their workforce back into the office after COVID.
• 15:46
  Sinead Donovan: And we're moving to hybrid at the at the best, but some people are doing the five days a week.
• 15:52
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 15:52
  Sinead Donovan: It's to protect all these things you're talking about, the serendipity, the loyalty, the culture, the learning on the job.
• 15:58
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Sinead Donovan: Um, okay, and that's something that I think is yeah, is is is is quite important to look.
• 16:05
  Kingsley Aikins: I'm not sure we I I don't think we'll go all the way back to five days in.
• 16:08
  Kingsley Aikins: I think, but but I I would I'd be personally, I think four and one is quite a nice idea.
• 16:13
  Kingsley Aikins: You know, and some some countries are doing that.
• 16:15
  Kingsley Aikins: Um I think that that may be where this thing settles.
• 16:19
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, and I mean certainly I would see it in the profession, in the training of grads, and you know, that they do learn so much on the job.
• 16:26
  Sinead Donovan: We're coming to the end, Kingsy.
• 16:28
  Sinead Donovan: It has been I I've got a page of takeaways which I will try and and maybe summarise a little bit at some of them at the end, but kind of a final word from from you about, you know, be it to I don't want to say a young charge accountances listening, but be it to any charge accountances that that's listening, what what would be your ask of them as to how to best represent themselves, best represent their profession, best represent maybe their country.
• 16:56
  Sinead Donovan: What what should they or could they do?
• 16:59
  Kingsley Aikins: I remember getting a a piece of advice, slightly trite advice, quite funny advice uh when I look back on it now.
• 17:06
  Kingsley Aikins: Um this fella said to me, said, I'm a founder member of an organization called Case.
• 17:10
  Kingsley Aikins: He said, and Case stands for copy and steal everything.
• 17:13
  Kingsley Aikins: In other words, go figure who does this well and hang around with him.
• 17:18
  Kingsley Aikins: So I worked for this guy, Tony O'Reilly, who probably was absolutely world-class networking, incredible.
• 17:24
  Kingsley Aikins: And I had the opportunity, I mean, I just picking up on what you said a while ago about speech, he was a wonderful, wonderful public speaker.
• 17:30
  Kingsley Aikins: But I would see him before I'd see I'd see him spending hours over that speech, and he practiced, practiced, practiced.
• 17:37
  Kingsley Aikins: He'd he'd try out lines and jokes and stuff on me, and he would be working at this, and it was so it was so natural the way he delivered this stuff, and and yet it was so effective.
• 17:51
  Kingsley Aikins: I mean, um Warren Buffett said, Warren Buffett, you know, the probably the most successful businessman in the history of the world has got on his wall he doesn't have his master's or his PhD or whatever studies at Wharton and everything.
• 18:05
  Kingsley Aikins: He's one certificate on the wall, which is the Dale Carnegie certificate on public speaking.
• 18:11
  Kingsley Aikins: He said that increased my value a hundred percent, being able to speak publicly.
• 18:16
  Kingsley Aikins: Okay.
• 18:17
  Kingsley Aikins: So I think that's fascinating.
• 18:19
  Sinead Donovan: It is fascinating, and and please, I don't want you to think, don't get me wrong, the only reason that I don't mind public speaking is because I know that I have to put in a hell of a lot of work to be able to stand up in front to do it.
• 18:30
  Sinead Donovan: But the physical art of standing up, but it's the preparation that is so key.
• 18:35
  Sinead Donovan: So so key.
• 18:36
  Sinead Donovan: Um Kingsy, you have you have given us so much.
• 18:41
  Sinead Donovan: Um, there's a few things I've written down here.
• 18:43
  Sinead Donovan: Uh, number one predictor of success is an open network.
• 18:45
  Sinead Donovan: And correct me if I get in these wrong.
• 18:47
  Sinead Donovan: There's the five people that you've spent the most time with will will likely shape you.
• 18:51
  Sinead Donovan: He who dies rich dies disgraced.
• 18:53
  Sinead Donovan: Um, the art of giving, and then the four fundamentals of networking personal network, strategic network, operational network, and online network.
• 19:02
  Sinead Donovan: Um, there's so much more, and I really hope that the listeners have have have some takeaways.
• 19:08
  Sinead Donovan: Um, Kingsley, or should I say author, Kingsley Aitness?
• 19:12
  Sinead Donovan: Um, thank you so much for your time.
• 19:14
  Sinead Donovan: It's been amazing, and I really, really appreciate it.
• 19:17
  Sinead Donovan: Delighted.
• 19:18
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you, Shanise.
• 19:18
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you.
• 19:19
  Sinead Donovan: And to the listeners, thank you so much for listening to this, um, which was our second part of talking to Kingsley on the process of networking.
• 19:27
  Sinead Donovan: So it's neither an art or science, is what I've learned, it's a process.
• 19:31
  Sinead Donovan: Um, but um, I hope this finds you all well wherever you may be, and I look forward to seeing you for the next episode of Difference Makers Discuss.
• 19:40
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you.