Latest / Mythmakers / Casting, Colbert and Contracts: Big News of Lotr Films and the Best Way to Get a Book Contract

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Casting, Colbert and Contracts: Big News of Lotr Films and the Best Way to Get a Book Contract · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creators
• 0:11
  brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and today I am joined
• 0:18
  by the podcast very good friend Jacob who is sitting over in Seattle, aren't you?
• 0:25
  Jacob Renica, I'm sitting over in Seattle. So we have the Atlantic between us and quite a few
• 0:32
  time zones but we've managed to get together because we wanted to talk about three things really.
• 0:39
  One thing is there has just been news on some of the casting decisions that are going on in this
• 0:46
  Andy Circus directed film The Hunt for Gollum. Then we also wanted to catch up with each other
• 0:53
  and with you about the possibility of this Stephen Colbert penned other Lord of the Rings film
• 1:02
  and finally because I'm launching into again publishing a fantasy book and Jacob is also a writer.
• 1:09
  We thought we would just give you a few pointers about how you get from an idea to actually
• 1:14
  getting a book out there in the world but we'll leave that at the end. So basically we've got
• 1:19
  three things to talk about today. Anyway welcome Jacob and shall we start with the casting news?
• 1:27
  How closely have you been following the news coming out of New Zealand on this film?
• 1:33
  Somewhat I haven't refreshed my browser every five minutes as perhaps I should have but
• 1:39
  yeah so just generally speaking I got other fish to fry but yeah but definitely with the I
• 1:46
  think it became more on my radar after the surprise announcement of the Colbert film when Peter
• 1:52
  Jackson was giving his update on Hunt for Gollum and I thought there was going to be a Hunt for Gollum
• 1:58
  update with the casting perhaps but then instead they provided something different but here's
• 2:03
  the casting here's the here's the Hunt for Gollum more significant update that everyone thought was
• 2:09
  coming. We have talked about this film before and the the challenges it has of being a prequel
• 2:15
  with having to colour between certain lines and the lack of freedom of what they can do and
• 2:22
  one is the clues that we get as people trying to sort of guess what's going to happen and what
• 2:27
  kind of film they're going for is to see what kind of people they are casting. Now the original
• 2:33
  sway was we thought they were going to perhaps because we knew that Ian McKellen was going back and
• 2:41
  we heard that Elijah Wood was going back and for a while Vigo Mortensen's name was attached to
• 2:46
  the project obviously Andy circuses back playing Gollum though as a CGI character that's a completely
• 2:53
  different you know set of criteria but when Vigo dropped out then there was a gap and for a while
• 3:03
  a actor called Leo Woodle was attached to that role and it turns out that's wrong
• 3:09
  they've actually announced quite a fascinating casting which is Jamie Dawnan. Now if you only
• 3:16
  know Jamie Dawnan as the tortured, worried, sexually sort of strange protagonist in the 50 shades
• 3:29
  films who are not doing him justice because actually he's a brilliant Northern Irish actor
• 3:35
  he was in the Kenneth Branagh film Belfast he's been on in films and TV in the UK a lot.
• 3:45
  He is an actor of great range and seriousness and he's also incredibly good looking.
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  So delete from your mind, what's the name of that character? Christian Gray, there we go,
• 3:58
  delete from your mind that and now sort of think about him in his more Celtic Irish roots which
• 4:06
  I think Vigo Mortensen drew so much on his own background as a sort of European mix. I think
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  Jamie Dawnan's got that sort of authenticity to him that he can bring to the role.
• 4:18
  So I actually think it's a really good casting and I'm very excited to see what he might do with it.
• 4:25
  If I could put it like this, I think he has that potential lyrical soulfulness
• 4:31
  that actually made Vigo's performance so fascinating. The idea that this person could have lived
• 4:39
  a long time and knew all these stories for a man obviously. We're not judging by elves, we're
• 4:44
  judging by men. So I think that's I'm actually very happy. When we were talking before we started
• 4:51
  after recording, you weren't really familiar with him, but do you feel a little reassured by what I've
• 4:55
  just said? But what you've just told me, yeah. Yeah. I trust you. And so yeah, after the performance is
• 5:01
  if it's as long as somebody can capture like what Vigo I thought brought to the role wasn't
• 5:07
  you know a, we think like a swashbuckling strider, but something that you said like was more soulful
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  something you can sing as well, right? That you can believe is like a gentle like
• 5:21
  a benevolent could it could be a benevolent ruler and not like a media action hero. So that's
• 5:28
  yeah, as long as as long as you can keep that like you said like kind of like a poetic
• 5:32
  lilt to those lines, the sparse lines, I think I'm willing to give him a chance.
• 5:41
  Yes, if you want to sort of familiarize yourself with him, he does crop up on
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  track shows in the UK like the Graham Norton show. So if you just look at how he presents himself
• 5:52
  there, you'll see that he's he's quite shy. And I always felt that the Christian Grey role he was
• 5:59
  really quite that was against the grain of where he was naturally, but he has played also some
• 6:07
  quite difficult villainous characters as well. So that's why I'm saying he's got a range. So
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  yes, tick tick, Jamie Dawne an interesting Leo Waddle, I think that's his name, I don't know him
• 6:19
  so well, but I think he's been in things like the Lotus Hotel series, all those kind of things.
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  He's a young actor, very good, and he seems to be playing a character that is not canon as it were,
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  whose name begins with Hal, Halvard or something like that, which sounds as though he could be in
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  some way a ranger. And thinking about it, you're not going to send him, McKellen, that he's great
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  age, off into the wilds of location shooting, because he just can't do it. That's one of the
• 6:53
  problems about him being interested in the role. So who is Eric Olm going to talk to? I heard
• 7:00
  I think it was none of the rings were speculating about it, and I was checking what was happening
• 7:04
  at lunchtime, and they were taking it quite seriously about, oh, well, who is this person?
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  And I was thinking, actually, he's there, surely there, just as the someone that
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  Aragon can talk to, as a writerly thing, first and foremost, he needs a companion,
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  and it's clear, unless you're going to give him a legula or someone to go with him,
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  you need someone who could conceivably be accompanying him. And another ranger seems like
• 7:32
  an obvious choice, because we know he has the grey company and all those people in the Lord
• 7:38
  of the Rings books, which never made it over to the film. So that's what I suspect is happening.
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  Though, of course, the name is fairly generic, so it could be some other race of man in that time.
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  We'll see, but I think if I was putting money on it, it would be somebody from the north,
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  like a ranger. Okay, so another casting, which I think you will be familiar with, Jacob,
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  that's Kate Winslet, who is playing a character called Marie Gold, which sounds hobbit-y,
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  but we're in the time of, well, I'm not aware of there being a main female hobbit called
• 8:19
  Marie Gold. So I suppose we can speculate that maybe she is something like
• 8:27
  Gollum's, the sort of the matriarch of Gollum's tribe of hobbit, you know, proto-hobbits,
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  because his grandmother is mentioned and does get like her own little Gandalf talks about her and
• 8:43
  actually mentions her when he's telling Gollum's story. So Kate Winslet, who is more or less my age,
• 8:50
  so she's not, oh, I'll say I'm not. No, no, no, no, no, no, but she's not a young woman.
• 8:57
  This is becoming seasoned. She's just not a young lady anymore. She's becoming those sort of
• 9:02
  motherly parts. Yeah, right. So that seems though, unless they're inventing another hobbit,
• 9:10
  who in some ways going to be around in the sort of present day of this film, that doesn't
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  seem plausible. I think she must be from some kind of backstory for Smeagle, Gollum. But what do
• 9:24
  you think about the idea of seeing Kate Winslet as a matriarch of a, you know, the sort of steward.
• 9:32
  I mean, it could, yeah, I mean, why not? She has, she has the acting chops. She could make it
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  convincing. She could make it compelling. We do have, I mean, so Marygold without a D, we do have
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  a Marygold in rings of power, a Marygold brand of foot, who was one of the characters there. So
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  you know, another like a proto-hobbit type character. So I don't know if they're, if that's even
• 9:59
  part of their consideration on the naming. Okay. So I suppose the name doesn't tell us anything.
• 10:06
  Other than that, Kate Winslet has sort of, you know, fresh-faced English complexion,
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  not obviously sort of Elfin, if I can put it like that. Right. Not obviously sort of,
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  you can imagine the sort of Kate Winslet, a D, not the Kate Winslet, the
• 10:26
  take-glanshit types would, would lead you more into a elf direction. Right.
• 10:31
  Most people have immediately gone to her being a hobbit, but I guess that name doesn't rule
• 10:39
  out her being some kind of, something else. I mean, I wish, you know, part of me was, was wishing
• 10:45
  that it would be, that it could have been, uh, Eric Warren's mother, because he needs somebody
• 10:50
  if you're going to show, you know, my name is it. She does. I know it's not, you know, exactly.
• 10:54
  That's how we know it's not, it's not going to be her. So, um, yeah, yeah, so it could have been,
• 10:59
  yeah, I don't know, is there a relationship with the new, um, is there something in relation to
• 11:04
  this, you know, halvar, this new character? Yeah, it could be. Perhaps, who knows?
• 11:10
  But yeah, but certainly not, yeah, so it's not going to be, that's not, that's not an Elvish name.
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  So, we're, well, I guess, yeah, I mean, eager, eager to find out what she'll do and how prominently
• 11:21
  she'll be, uh, you know, what kind of part she'll actually play in the film, because these,
• 11:25
  like, in terms of like the, the material that we have, there isn't a large female,
• 11:32
  uh, you know, prominent role in that part. So whatever they're doing here, it's a, you know, new
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  character, uh, how, how do they put her into that story, like you were saying, within, coloring
• 11:43
  within the lines of what's there in the text, um, and being aware of what's been presented in
• 11:48
  the films, uh, to then kind of walk that line, introducing a new character with, who can,
• 11:54
  you know, do something with the role, like Kate Winslet obviously will be able to do.
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  I just hope they can do her justice by, uh, by, by providing a role that, that allows her to do
• 12:04
  something meaningful in the story. Yeah, and again, just to sort of emphasize those, those of you
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  only last saw her in Titanic or something. Um, she has gone on to do so many, um, different roles,
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  including, uh, wall reporters and she recently directed a, a film came out of Christmas,
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  goodbye June with Helen Mirren, where she was playing an older, you know, sort of a grown-up daughter
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  to somebody dying of cancer. So she's got, again, the breadth and the range that one would hope.
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  So she can do anything, basically, and I agree with you. Let's hope whatever part she's given,
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  be it Hobbit type thing or some kind of human, uh, let it, let it be significant. Um, yeah.
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  I, I will say that I have so like, my most recent kind of exposure to her is her, um,
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  audiobook narration of the Enchanted Wood, uh, Children's series, uh, she did the Far Away Tree,
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  um, uh, audiobook that my, uh, my child listens to sometimes. So she can do, so I know that she
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  can do, if it is kind of, you know, more, Hobbit-y, thematic role that she can, I've heard her,
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  be able to do that, you know, and do it well. She has that kind of whimsy, can have that kind of,
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  like, you know, magical whimsical wondrous, uh, little to her, uh, to her voice. So I think she could,
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  if it is even that kind of a role, I think that she would be able to do well based on what I've
• 13:27
  heard her do. Yeah, and of course there's just a practical thing about which British actors are
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  left over who haven't been cast in Harry Potter, so, you know, they don't want to cross streams
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  of the franchise. Yeah, that's, that's important. Um, okay, so moving on, uh, and then we got news about
• 13:45
  people returning, so Lee Pace was the new announcement. Now Lee Pace, most people listening to this,
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  will remember as Thrandwell in the Hobbit, and he was definitely one of the best castings. Him
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  and Martin Freeman were brilliant in that. Um, I think the problems were all to do with the,
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  the script really, rather than the castings. Um, I also liked Richard Armitage as well as,
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  anyway, so casting was strong in that thing, it's just the way it was divided up, which
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  it was weird, and that's charitable. Um, so Lee Pace with his awful, awful arrogance, um, in that
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  was rather good. So him coming back and just wish his robes again. I think he's
• 14:32
  exciting, but also, I think he will be fine because that's what 10, 13 years ago he did that.
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  I think because he was already a mature elf, he won't have aged out. Whereas poor old Orlando
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  Bloom, if he did come back in any way as legulus, um, he would find it very difficult to be D age
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  just because he probably won a longer move like a, of course it doesn't, like a 20-year-old.
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  Um, so I think Lee will be fine. Um, so that, that seems good. Elijah Wood coming back, he did
• 15:05
  look a bit ancient, even with all the de-aging technology in the Hobbit. So I'm not sure how he's
• 15:11
  going to be featured, possibly as a, a voiceover introduction of the red book kind of brief glimpse.
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  I can't imagine he will have a larger role than bookending it. And then Ian McKellen,
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  I am worried about Ian McKellen because in the hunt for Gollum, Gandalf does stand to play a big
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  part, he's a part of the search. And lovely Ian McKellen is eighties and he has had a number of
• 15:43
  health events, you know, he can't ride a horse or, you know, so I'm hoping a bit like they had to
• 15:51
  reprisse to Billy, I'm hoping they're going to work away of, um, letting him act without overstressing
• 15:58
  him. Um, I know he wants to keep hold of the part. Should let, should let go, Ian, that's my personal
• 16:05
  view, but I know a lot of people really want him to come back. Um, but anyway, if he's coming back,
• 16:11
  don't overstress him. And then of course, finally, anti-circus, um, it's going to be Gollum as well.
• 16:17
  That's going to be, don't you think that's really interesting? Well, people have done it before,
• 16:21
  but how is he going to direct and act? When it's the hunt for Gollum, how's he going to do that?
• 16:29
  It's going to be really hard. Yeah, yeah. Yep, no, agreed. And I don't know that the, yeah, the
• 16:35
  difficulties, the added level of complexity with the motion capture, um, you know, that he's going
• 16:42
  to be, because he's, he, he's there. I'm sure he'll be there in the scenes with folks, but he'll be,
• 16:48
  I think the actors will already be having to suspend their disbelief, looking at a man in a,
• 16:53
  in a spandex suit with, with, with the dots on him, uh, and a man using their imagination. Uh, so,
• 17:00
  I don't, yeah, and that's, that's a good, uh, a good question. I, in terms of like the logistics
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  of directorial responsibilities, uh, in scenes that it's, it's largely set up from what, from what I've
• 17:12
  seen and understand that it's, you know, setting up a scene beforehand, going through, and then
• 17:16
  afterwards, yeah, like, like directors do rather than like stopping people cutting mid scene,
• 17:21
  which you, you could, you could do, but it is different. It's the same thing like with a, um,
• 17:27
  you saw more of this, uh, uh, a few decades ago with, with basketball, with, um, American basketball
• 17:33
  that they had a few player coaches. So somebody who was playing in the game, but who was also coaching
• 17:38
  didn't really last. There was just like a, a, a spot where people tried doing that, but they found
• 17:42
  it was strategically and emotionally better for all those involved to have the director, who's,
• 17:48
  who's just kind of doing their role of, of, of, of, you know, the Maestro, if you will, of kind of,
• 17:54
  like, or, you know, orchestrating all the different parts rather than being in it because that's
• 17:58
  completely different because emotionally, you have to be invested in the scene for it to be convincing
• 18:02
  and get responses from your fellow actors. So it is a level of complication. Um, but I think that
• 18:09
  he did actually do this, um, if I remember from the making of, he did do this on the hobbit for
• 18:14
  that scene, the, the breast scene and the whole thing when he does the riddles. I've got a feeling
• 18:20
  he was the director of the second unit and did that. So I've got in my mind that he actually,
• 18:27
  there is a bit where you can go and look what he does on them, the extras, uh, showing how he does
• 18:33
  it. Um, and of course, as you say, because it's a mo cat type thing that you could, I presume he
• 18:40
  could have a double sort of for the, when he's doing coverage for other act, he could have someone
• 18:44
  else doing that and he can be, um, it's not actually on him. Anyway, let's, let's see is it's, um,
• 18:51
  Andy, you've taken on a lot. Okay. So that was, you know, sufficiently joyful to find out
• 18:58
  and all that was happening. Um, but we also heard a couple of weeks ago now that, um, this was,
• 19:06
  this did take me by surprise that Stephen Colbert, who is best known for being a late night
• 19:14
  chat show host, but he's also a very funny man and, you know, he's, he's, he's got a personality
• 19:22
  that goes beyond his show, but he is also known, of course, as being one of the uber fans of talking
• 19:29
  and he would have a rather sort of prominent cameo role in that he didn't blend with the rest of the
• 19:35
  film in the Hobbit. Um, but he clearly loves anything to do with the whole Peter Jackson setup.
• 19:41
  Anyway, and he's been cancelled or whatever, his show's been cancelled. So he, we knew,
• 19:48
  everyone knew that he was going to do something else, but nobody knew what. And then Peter Jackson
• 19:54
  announced with him that he is writing, well, if I've been calling it like this, if the hunt for
• 20:06
  Gollum is a prequel, then this is an interval because it fits in between the party and the Hobbits
• 20:19
  arriving at, well, and leaving starting to leave a Hobbit sort of party getting together of
• 20:26
  Mary Pippin, Simon Frodo, and arriving in Bri. It's an interval there. And there is muttering
• 20:35
  rumours about them doing a trilogy. So that would mean we've got prequel interval and maybe a
• 20:40
  sequel. Right. I don't know. That's what I'm thinking would be quite a nice pattern. But what do you
• 20:45
  think about a, well, let's start with the material first and then talk about the people involved.
• 20:52
  What do you think about this idea of filling in the bit? So there's the chapters,
• 20:58
  the early chapters of Lord of the Rings, where they're not going to redo, you know,
• 21:03
  Gandalf talking to Frodo and all that stuff again. They're going to conceivably can pick up with,
• 21:08
  I don't know, Farmer Maggett because he was not really covered. The Old Forest, Old Man Willow,
• 21:18
  Tom Bombadil, Goldbree, Barodowns, Barrow Whites, and then presumably stop as they reach Bri.
• 21:30
  More to think about that as material for a film.
• 22:01
  Yeah, that was good. And it was interesting. When Colbert announced it, he talked about those
• 22:09
  chapters, how he said when he loves the film, loves the films, and was looking at and also
• 22:17
  loves the books. And he was thought, you know, looking at those chapters that they skipped that he kept
• 22:21
  coming back to them and said, like, is there enough here for a story because he felt there was.
• 22:25
  And so I did the same thing immediately when and revisited those. And I think it could work.
• 22:32
  I think there's enough there to provide an arc for the characters and for Frodo's in particular.
• 22:40
  You know, there's a line at the very end when, at the very end of those, those
• 22:47
  sort of chapters when Frodo is, you know, captive by the Barrow White. And it says, you know,
• 22:52
  there's like a seed of courage that's in the existence in all hobbits. And sometimes it just
• 22:57
  takes the desperate circumstance, you know, to be able to awaken that. And then you don't,
• 23:01
  you know, ultimately does and saves his friends were at the, as at the beginning, he's very reluctant,
• 23:06
  hesitant to leave. He's always questioning, I'm sure that I have, you know, did I leave him?
• 23:10
  Am I doing the right thing? Should I have left? Did I leave the wrong way? Now is everybody?
• 23:14
  Did I actually make things worse by leaving? Because my friends know about the ring. Does that mean
• 23:18
  everybody else knows about the ring? There's the black writers. And so you see have this kind of
• 23:21
  like fearful Frodo who in that moment, I think you really see him first really kind of summon his
• 23:27
  courage. So this is kind of the awakening of Frodo the hero. I think you can see, I think this
• 23:35
  could be a good way to represent that kind of transition of character because he does, well,
• 23:41
  in the films, he does, he does kind of, he can be hesitant and question and defer to others.
• 23:49
  He is the fairly brave, it seems like for for a hobbit who's out of their depth, certainly more
• 23:55
  so than Mary and Hippen at the beginning and even Sam. So in my mind, so these stories that
• 24:04
  you're doing kind of like, well, it's not pretty cool, but if it's a movie that's kind of being
• 24:09
  inserted into a bubble. That's why I called it an interval. Right. Yeah, yeah. So we've seen it
• 24:15
  before. And I think you can do it well. It's if it's done, I think it's it serves the story.
• 24:23
  If it adds something, it adds a dimension or a layer to a character that then if you rewatch the
• 24:29
  other, rewatch the original, then you think like, Oh, okay, I can appreciate this character more.
• 24:34
  There's something that like enriches your understanding and kind of experience of that character.
• 24:39
  Then it's there. And I think they're able to do that like with Star Wars has done it to varying
• 24:42
  degrees of success. And I think mostly with the, you know, the Rogue One kind of like more of a stand
• 24:51
  alone disconnected the Andor series where it's adding some more depth that now kind of going back
• 24:56
  and watching stories, seeing characters, you understand, Oh, there's this motivation to the
• 25:00
  character. And it enriches rewatching the original. So I think that with the this within this arc,
• 25:06
  you do see Frodo kind of moving and changing, at least told, you know,
• 25:10
  talking himself signifies this kind of this switch, this light change in Frodo at that moment.
• 25:18
  And the barrel when he's when he's captured by the barrel white. So I think within that,
• 25:22
  within the arc with the with the Tom Bombadil, with the, you know, the old forest,
• 25:27
  with Tom Bombadil, the barrel whites, I think I think I think there's enough there to have like a
• 25:33
  nice self-contained story without having to like we saw with the Hobbit, the problem with the
• 25:37
  Hobbit is it was stretched to thin into three films from the material, but the material that we
• 25:43
  have here, I think there's enough to be able to provide a nice to dig into some of those moments.
• 25:51
  But the trick is that I would love to hear this your thoughts on this on how that fits in
• 25:57
  with the with the existing films. What you think the best way to do that. So that's going to be
• 26:03
  a real challenge, isn't it? So first of all, the choices they took, simplified some of the characters.
• 26:11
  So one of the things I was finding when I've been doing this series reading my way through it,
• 26:16
  side cast, I'm calling it. Remember looking at those and thinking, oh yeah, talking really
• 26:21
  did think about the different roles of the Hobbits within that little walking party. A Mary in
• 26:27
  particular is not just the naughty sidekick character. He is more like I think I would call him
• 26:34
  a quartermaster. He provides the ponies and he negotiates on their behalf. Here's the one who
• 26:42
  goes ahead and prepares the way, sets things out. Here's the one who knows about the road through
• 26:49
  the old forest. So he's not just Pippin's chum. And of course, Pippin, as a took as a whole,
• 26:57
  he's own sort of background, but we got the idea of, we love you to see Mary as a brandy back
• 27:02
  because a brandy box and the which he will eventually become, you know, head of that branch
• 27:08
  of the family. And they've got a very different culture and that would be fun to see. But it would
• 27:14
  mean shifting Mary slightly. I think you see later in the trilogy that he is a more serious
• 27:23
  character of the two. He is the one, for example, who is suspicious of Strider early on, if you remember.
• 27:31
  And then of course, he has that sort of seriousness of purpose, which Pippin is later to find
• 27:39
  when he reaches Gondor. So that would be, there's a slight re-tuning. I think you can just about
• 27:47
  get away with it. But in terms of where Mary is, I think if you're going to have the four of them,
• 27:57
  you want more nuance between who they will provide the nuance. And with Frodo, by casting a
• 28:04
  larger wood so young, they got rid of this. But Frodo is the young officer who is sent over
• 28:11
  the top with his men. That's who he is. And it would be interesting to see if they lean more
• 28:18
  into that. The fact that Frodo does have some sort of command. And that's what you see. He takes
• 28:26
  responsibility and command. So I think that's all, that's interesting. But I feel it's a bit
• 28:34
  thin. I know why they're doing it. I would be interested to see how they connect it to
• 28:44
  the outer frame, because apparently it's Storta who is in the appendices. You know that she holds
• 28:51
  their books. And so she's like the next generation of the story. That's where I would put the
• 28:59
  sequel. If I was going to write, yeah. And that seems, and I've seen, you know, that's what they
• 29:04
  did with Star Wars, with the Force Awakens, those kind of the passing of the batons. So they had
• 29:09
  the original characters in. And then this new crop that they were presumably kind of like rolling
• 29:14
  off the franchise onto the shoulders of. So this could be a way if they're introducing that
• 29:21
  character and having her as kind of part of the framing story. She's Eleanor, I think. Is that
• 29:27
  the right name? Yes. Yeah. Because it's named after the flower that they see in Lorian. So
• 29:36
  yes. And I think she's the one who becomes a, she's also bright lady in waiting to
• 29:42
  all win and things. So I'm exactly like her. I think she sounds really interesting.
• 29:47
  But the, it is frankly thin. And the stakes are quite hard to persuade you. I know that the
• 29:56
  sort of strap line is the fellowship almost failed before it began. You have to work hard, I think,
• 30:03
  to. To convince. So make that stake. Because you don't have the sort of, you know, the sexy characters
• 30:09
  like Aragorn and Legolas and Borumin, all that sort of the men around. You, you know, laughing,
• 30:17
  chuckling, don't want to do all. Yeah. Goldberry, right. So we have two. So now,
• 30:22
  whereas it was all male. So we have it within the material, the source material itself, there's
• 30:26
  one female. That's Goldberry who comes in and it's just kind of weaves her way within the story to
• 30:32
  provide some. Clotical atrial style presence, really. So I did exactly. Yeah.
• 30:39
  File run at Galadriel. A photo, Galadriel. Yeah, it's coming in there. Yeah. So it's so again,
• 30:44
  like, you know, mystical, mysterious, happy, but kind of like an untouchable character. Not one
• 30:50
  that they're like really feel that they can approach, but that they're approaching with like
• 30:54
  on trepidation because it's too soon to do this elemental force, much like an elf, but I think
• 30:59
  like even heightened in the text itself. It's really she is a force of nature. Yeah. That's kind of
• 31:06
  embodied or anthropomorphized. And so yeah. So I think it's about having Eleanor as, you know,
• 31:11
  their female. So when you talk about audience, it's it'll be hard to have, you know, you're,
• 31:17
  there's going to be love interests. You don't have like, you don't have like an art like to change
• 31:21
  that they made with the film with having R-Win inserted earlier, taking some slightly different
• 31:26
  roles to make her more prominent role in the film to ideally connect more perhaps with, with
• 31:33
  certain audiences. So this one's going to be a male, a very male centered film unless they're
• 31:37
  able to with the frame story with Eleanor. If she's actively kind of, you know, they're
• 31:43
  intercutting her throughout this as she's kind of discovering and learning more information about
• 31:48
  what happened. But I think what I'm interested to see is how they explain within the scope of the
• 31:54
  film, why this didn't make it into the story that everyone knows, which is presumably, you know,
• 31:59
  the films that we saw them. So it's like, well, what was about this? Well, there was a there was
• 32:02
  an entire character like elemental force, the oldest perhaps the oldest being that existed on
• 32:08
  middle earth and you just didn't mention that in your story to us. Almost the barrel whites,
• 32:15
  these terrible like forces of evil that nearly killed all of your friends and you forgot to mention
• 32:21
  that to us. So I mean, you're good to hear like how they explain that within the film. She does
• 32:26
  have like you said, like she does have, she has given the red book. So she has that information.
• 32:31
  And I don't know if she's now is she's saying like, well, this is perhaps the author, you know,
• 32:36
  who's been writing Bilbo and Frodo and this perhaps they've been unreliable narrators and then
• 32:40
  she's going to, you know, the different areas and trying to tease out. Okay. Oh, that'd be great.
• 32:45
  What didn't they tell us here and she's seeing different things like especially with like the,
• 32:51
  you know, the the the barrel blades that they receive in the books, it's they get that that's
• 32:59
  where they receive their their swords that are really daggers, right? Tom Bombayle gives them,
• 33:03
  you know, from from the bear white's treasure. And that's how they're armed. Whereas in the films,
• 33:07
  Error Gorn is the one. He just helps them. Yeah.
• 33:10
  Has some extra extra swords because why not? He's he's he's well prepared. He's a monarch and
• 33:15
  in waiting. I think they may they may have to abandon the idea of completely dovetailing. Yeah.
• 33:22
  Yeah, exactly. So that's why it's going to be such a straight jacket.
• 33:25
  No, it will be and especially with the farmer, you may have mentioned farmer maggots. So I went
• 33:29
  in and rewatched the little section. They mentioned. Yeah. So they mentioned farmer maggot.
• 33:35
  Like that's who they say they're running away from when they run into them in the cornfields.
• 33:39
  They say, yeah, so easy and you see the side kind of, you know, bobbing up and down there.
• 33:43
  Uh, what I'm I'm interested to hear from you, Julius. I think the biggest character here that
• 33:49
  is going to be the play a part in this and we'll probably be there is clearly is going to be
• 33:53
  central to the plot is Tom Bombadil. Oh, yeah. Um, so so your thoughts on how to handle this.
• 33:59
  I'd love to hear, you know, how Tom Bombadil has been handled. Um, you know, we've we've reviewed,
• 34:05
  you know, rings of power season two was kind of our first like on screen. We have, um, you know,
• 34:10
  audio adaptations like with with Andy circus with his narration of of fellowship of the ring.
• 34:16
  Um, we have, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, American, uh, national public radio adaptation that does
• 34:23
  include Tom Bombadil, but the BBC 1981 radio adaptation skipped over that part because, you know,
• 34:28
  that whole, uh, section there. So, so what are you expecting? What do you hope? What do you fear
• 34:34
  with Tom Bombadil? What would you like to see, especially with your close rereading that you've
• 34:38
  been doing? What do you think? How do you think they can serve Tom Bombadil here in a way that he
• 34:43
  hasn't been served elsewhere? Okay. So the reason why I said book version, the book version of Tom
• 34:50
  Bombadil comes across as like a nursery time figure because he was a nursery character in and
• 34:58
  that and you still with talking at the moment when he's still thinking of it as a new hobby.
• 35:05
  And they had this little figurine in the nursery and it was incorporating a child's toy in
• 35:11
  the story and then sort of doing the talking thing of, oh, well, it's actually going to be this,
• 35:16
  you know, it's much bigger than that, of course. Um, and that origin is kind of dropped away.
• 35:23
  So, but one of the vestiges of that sort of younger, sort of more nursery thing is the way he talks
• 35:30
  the ho-hunt on, you know, Tom Bombadil songs. I think the way to handle it, um, is
• 35:38
  why not just go with Rory Keneer who's doing a fabulous job in the rings of power version of Tom Bombadil?
• 35:45
  He seems to have the right energy for this character. So someone, if not him, well, why not him?
• 35:51
  Um, but also I think, think about that, not think of it as more like a focusinger.
• 36:02
  Some really great focusinger who's, because a lot of medieval folk songs have the,
• 36:07
  the refrain like that. And actually, I think you'd have to cast someone who's got a really good
• 36:13
  baritone or bass voice, who could really carry it off without it sounding odd or funny.
• 36:23
  Because it's cheerful, but it's not, you're not laughing at him. It's a joke that you share like a
• 36:28
  babbling brook. That's the idea. The spirit is that kind of infectious laughter that you get with,
• 36:33
  you know, the best people. And it's a tall order, but I think you can do it if you've got someone
• 36:40
  who's musically sensitive. I don't know if Rory Keneer is, maybe he writes, like, oh no, that's not me.
• 36:45
  But, um, somebody who's got the acting chops of him, but also, he's able to sing. I mean, I suppose,
• 36:52
  um, somebody who's actually trained in singing would be good. I'm just thinking of a few,
• 37:02
  Jack, Jackman, someone like that who can really carry a tune would be good, but you need some,
• 37:10
  not necessarily him, but somebody who could not be embarrassed about moving between speech and song.
• 37:16
  Because I think that's the key thing about that character. And it can really fail. It's hard to
• 37:23
  dub as well in other languages, you know. Um, so we'll see, but I think what I think he's actually,
• 37:34
  to be honest, I think he's easier in a way than Goldbury, because Goldbury is described in
• 37:41
  very similar language to Galadriel. And she stands, poses in a very similar way to Galadriel is,
• 37:48
  it is like a sort of, is so he's playing with these ideas and then says, I'll write it.
• 37:53
  I think you'd have to lean into the idea of her being a sort of river goddess,
• 38:00
  probably a bit more CGI, you know, a bit more sort of idea that she's, she's, she's like,
• 38:05
  made almost a wall, yeah, elemental creature. Yeah, or something where she doesn't feel like
• 38:10
  Cape Township, but not. Um, but she's kind and she has an element of, um, nurturing to her as well,
• 38:21
  as does Tom there, but I think that's what I would kind of emphasize is they're both really
• 38:28
  loving characters and a happy marriage. Right. And the language that they use there in the book
• 38:34
  is really interesting. It says like that they are like, that they're different. Like Tom is this kind
• 38:39
  of like, boisterous and, uh, you know, kind of jovial. She is happy and nurturing and caring. And it
• 38:46
  says that they're kind of like weaving their way around each other and this kind of dance.
• 38:49
  Yes, the way that they describe their relationship that they that they seem like off like, you know,
• 38:53
  total opposites, but that they're together somehow able to work in concert with one another,
• 38:59
  which is like, which is, you know, kind of evoking, with Tom in general, it's really, I feel
• 39:05
  you have strong resonances with the I know Linda Lay in the Silmarillion where existence begins
• 39:10
  with Tom. Yeah. Right. And so, and it's not just and even when, um, you know, Melkor is introducing
• 39:18
  this harmony, um, the other, um, I know, uh, and, uh, you know, the creation is able to kind of
• 39:26
  harmonize, use like play off of that discord to create something that's even more beautiful.
• 39:30
  And so the emphasis that I keep seeing here on, on singing and then like when, when the hobbits
• 39:35
  then say that it feels, basically, you know, Frodo starts kind of singing and kind of stops
• 39:39
  themselves and it's like, I didn't, and then he says they, they found it easier to sing
• 39:44
  at times than to talk. So like he said, it's infectious. It's just something that there's this kind
• 39:48
  of like elemental, they're tapping into something that's elemental that Polkina is, is seeing
• 39:53
  as fundamental to creation itself, which is sought. Um, and Tom Bombadil is kind of the embodiment
• 39:58
  of, of that in a way in the natural world, which is fascinating. But and I think, yeah, like,
• 40:03
  like you're saying, like with the, the, the, the, the voice, um, if you treat you like like a folk
• 40:09
  singer, I think like that's a really good approach. So I did, I went and did, you know, a deep dive
• 40:13
  on all of the different like, um, interpretations of Tom Bombadil in, in, in all of these different
• 40:19
  forms. So listening to how the American version, uh, did it in 1979. Um, it was kind of on more of a,
• 40:26
  kind of a goofy, silly character, some singing, um, but, uh, but not all the time. Andy's here,
• 40:34
  and then Rob, uh, English, um, had singing, you know, had Tom Bombadil singing, wanted explicitly
• 40:39
  in the text said that he was singing. Um, but Andy Serkis, what he does, which is fascinating,
• 40:45
  is he picked up on Polkins, like the, the lyricism. So when, when Tom Bombadil speaks, he speaks
• 40:51
  in meter, they still, still there. And so, and so Andy Serkis recognizes the, the meter that's
• 40:58
  there, even though it doesn't say that he was, it doesn't express the say, he's saying this.
• 41:02
  But Andy Serkis recognizes the meter and he continues to sing. So the majority of Tom Bombadil's
• 41:08
  lines are sung in the Andy Serkis adaptation, which I thought was fascinating and like, and more,
• 41:13
  you know, did justice to the text. And as, as I imagined Tolkien was imagining it, kind of hearing
• 41:19
  it, uh, himself, um, what I saw in the rings of power season two was a more, the character,
• 41:26
  like so it was, it was a more subdued character. He's well, I'll be on actually, isn't he?
• 41:31
  I felt that he, yeah, look, he felt a bit similar to the beyond character in the Hobbit.
• 41:37
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think so we saw like a more, he was more, yeah, like a more,
• 41:40
  a more subdued as if like, yeah, that, that he then, the hard trajectory is usually it's
• 41:46
  your jolly and then you become jaded. Um, whereas in rings of power, he's kind of like jaded subdued
• 41:52
  character who then all of a sudden is going to become like happy go lucky after all these,
• 41:57
  like his trauma that he's gone through. Um, so I think yeah, the, that Andy Serkis gives a very,
• 42:03
  kind of like a boisterous, the energy with which Andy Serkis, um, provided I think was interesting.
• 42:08
  With the Rob English, it was, it was kind of a more constant. It was, uh, like a happy and joyful,
• 42:15
  but it was more, uh, it was a more measured, uh, as opposed to kind of like a little bit more
• 42:20
  unbounded in Andy Serkis's. So I'd be interested to see how they take this character and like you're
• 42:26
  saying with kind of as goldberry as the foil for that. Um, and without making it seem like outlandish
• 42:32
  and just silly. Yeah, one thing we do know with the Stephen
• 42:38
  Colbert script is it's going to be extremely respectful of the source. He's doing it with his
• 42:48
  son who I think is called just got different surname Peter McGee or something like that,
• 42:51
  who is a script writer. Um, I don't know what you think about nepotism, but clearly they'll have
• 42:57
  a close working relationship there on this. Um, but the other thing that I think bodes well for
• 43:04
  the what we've just been talking about is Stephen Colbert and his wife Evie clearly have a very
• 43:11
  Tom Bomberdale goldberry marriage. They're all clearly very happy married and she often appears on
• 43:16
  his show and so I'd quite like to see a bit of her own, a bit of her in here, you know. Um, they are,
• 43:23
  they are writing it with Philippa Boyens of course and PJ and all the rest of them and Fran.
• 43:31
  So I'm sure it will, it will blend, but yeah, it's, it's definitely making something with the
• 43:38
  trimmings from the pastry. Yeah, and one other thing I was thinking of like the things that we've
• 43:43
  seen elsewhere that like so this material that we've seen has been mined elsewhere, even in the
• 43:47
  Peter Jackson films, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, when, uh, when, uh, Pippin and Mary go to Finghorn,
• 43:53
  forest, they're kind of attacked by the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and okay, yeah,
• 43:59
  right. So yeah, so if you sat in the theater, you're out of luck, but yeah, so they, so, so, so,
• 44:03
  so this material has been my like, so that the whole episode there where the forest is kind of, uh,
• 44:08
  attacking, um, we, that that kind of has been my little bit in rings of power. That was one of
• 44:13
  things that kind of that I felt was done. I don't want to say disrespectfully, but just like it didn't,
• 44:20
  it, it seemed like they're pulling out. So you have the, um, uh, the stranger who's revealed to be
• 44:26
  Gandalf. Oh, the barrow rights. They're in the real name. Barrow rights also. Yeah. So the same,
• 44:31
  yeah. So again, like the same episode, it's even known the same episode. It's episode four of season two
• 44:35
  where Gandalf is, is, is, you know, trapped by this, um, you know, it's old, old man Ironwood.
• 44:42
  So they just changed that off and then even the same lines where he's saying, you know, and
• 44:46
  again, I was trying to ask him who he is. His responses are the same as, yeah, you know, as,
• 44:51
  as Tom Bommado's response to Frodo, he's asking, who am I, um, and even the singing. And so it just
• 44:56
  seemed like they were just kind of like lifting the ports, you know, copy, you know, insert fine and
• 45:02
  repaced. Yeah. Find and replace this put in some other generic names and put in the same situation
• 45:09
  rather than taking the spirit of that and seeing how it would happen and organically kind of unfold.
• 45:13
  And there I felt like it was trying to steer too close to that. So the same episode, the Tom Bommado,
• 45:17
  and that kind of a tree attacking our heroic character, you also have the barrel whites in a separate,
• 45:23
  you know, you know, separate story, um, separate plot, uh, with, um, gladriel and elrond and then the,
• 45:31
  the, and that's kind of more of an actiony fighting the barrel whites. I didn't find that one as,
• 45:36
  you know, objectionable because they were taking this concept of barrel white and then just like
• 45:40
  having those as an obstacle, um, and wasn't really a plot. It didn't really, it advanced the plot
• 45:46
  in the, in so far as the characters are coming together and this, this group that wasn't really
• 45:52
  coherent now is kind of having to fight together. So, so okay, it served as purpose here, but
• 45:57
  taking the Tom Bommado material from his character and his character development and just kind of
• 46:02
  like wholesaler lifting it out of there and plopping it into another setting without changing it
• 46:06
  or finessing it much. Um, that was something that I, I thought could have been handled differently, um,
• 46:12
  to, to, but of course this, this team don't have to worry about what brings a power up to.
• 46:17
  Right. No, or do it. Well, that, I'm sure that'll be a like that voice. I'm sure Steven
• 46:22
  Colbert has seen rings of power season two guarantee it, right? Um, so I'm sure that's all you mean,
• 46:26
  how I see. Yeah. So he, so as they're doing that, I'm sure they're saying like so that,
• 46:31
  that Tom Bommado has been portrayed recently. If it was like something from, you know,
• 46:35
  if it was the rink and bass, animated adaptation, then that was the only thing that,
• 46:39
  then it would be a problem. But so recently we've had a Tom Bamba Dill live action adaptation
• 46:44
  within the past two years when this being developed. So I'm sure that that is playing that that's
• 46:49
  something that they're kind of triangulating around like do they want to, how are they responding
• 46:53
  to it? Because again, it exists already in their mind. So they have to decide, okay, do we want to
• 46:58
  lean into that character choice or do we want to go a completely different direction?
• 47:03
  So it has to be reactionary by virtue of the fact that it does exist in the world and it's
• 47:07
  something that the people that are involved likely have seen. And also they probably will have to
• 47:12
  do a more diverse casting process. So you might actually give a very different type for Tom Bamba Dill.
• 47:18
  Right. Well, Tom Bamba Dill, his hands are described as as brown. Now you can, you know, when
• 47:23
  they're describing him. So he doesn't say like exactly how he's looking, but he's doing, I mean, he
• 47:27
  has red, you know, red hair and whatnot, but that he's darker complexion. And so we could,
• 47:32
  so there's, there is just like with Harry Potter with the casting, right? I think there's,
• 47:37
  there are enough, there's enough leeway in the text that you can work with it a minute. So I
• 47:43
  would hope that they would do that because they're stuck with the hobbits and with the characters
• 47:47
  that they have. They can't re, they can't recast. I don't think it would be difficult to then put
• 47:52
  in somebody of a completely different ethnicity as they like hit in. If they're trying to make it
• 47:59
  feel as though it's seamless with the rest of the story. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. They can
• 48:05
  obviously play around with having a more diverse hobbit cast. Why not? You know, I think they should.
• 48:13
  They probably would be started doing that in the hobbit. I didn't really notice, but they certainly
• 48:17
  did. They'd take town and places like that. Okay. So that's as far as we can really get on that
• 48:22
  at the moment. Other than I think it's really interesting. And yeah, good luck to them all.
• 48:28
  I'm sure they have, of course, they have thought through all these kind of things we've been talking
• 48:33
  about. But Stephen Colbert feels he's got a line through this. And I want him to surprise me and
• 48:39
  actually think so that I can say, oh, that's brilliant, Stephen. Well, you really did not
• 48:45
  get that one out the park. Yeah. That'd be great. And this is something that I saw in another
• 48:51
  interview that he did was his inspiration for doing this. So some people might like you're saying,
• 48:55
  like, I would love to be pleasantly surprised. And I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised.
• 49:00
  Because we said one of his inspirations for going to like screenwriting route was Bill Heder.
• 49:08
  Bill Heder was in Saturday Night Live, a comedian who then after finishing Saturday Night Live
• 49:14
  for several years, very successful run. He took a year and joined the writing team on South
• 49:20
  Park. So we just like didn't want to go to another like acting gig that a lot of people after
• 49:24
  Saturday Night Live or comedy shows, they would find the next big thing in the spotlight. He took
• 49:28
  time, he just joined a writing room for an animated cartoon for adults, did that for a year.
• 49:36
  And then based on that, then he started writing his own material and he developed this
• 49:41
  incredible dark comedy Barry that won several awards around for like four seasons on HBO.
• 49:48
  Yeah, it's a dark dark comedy that has some like a serious like drama has some like it's really
• 49:54
  really good. And so so team of obesity, he was inspired by Bill taking time off from being
• 50:01
  in front of the camera to then work on storytelling and what that did for him. And he said that was
• 50:06
  really kind of inspired him to kind of look for that route as he knew that his runway was ending
• 50:12
  with the late show that he wanted to then what do I want to do get into writing. And then luckily
• 50:17
  he called it, he called, you know, his show being canceled, a Yucatastrophe is the specific word
• 50:23
  that he uses in, right. So so you know, so you so clearly this is somebody who knows Tolkien,
• 50:27
  not just like his, you know, the fiction works, but also his nonfiction, his scholarly works,
• 50:33
  right on, you know, it's the scholarship on fairy. So so that so I do definitely see this is
• 50:39
  something that he's now able to and I'm grateful that he's able to kind of pivot into something
• 50:42
  his passion that maybe he can use his success, the resources, you know, the connections that he's
• 50:47
  made to then now try to do something different and to contribute, he says he feels like there's
• 50:52
  something that he can contribute to this because of worries because he loves the material so much,
• 50:57
  he wants to make sure that it's done right. Yeah, I want to do it justice. Yeah, I want to
• 51:02
  love anything to look forward to, you know, because you know, when the world feels bleak,
• 51:06
  I like looking forward to projects like this where I think, oh, well, that's coming in,
• 51:11
  you know, 2027 and then it's nice to have that. I think 2027 is the hump of golem, isn't it?
• 51:20
  Right. Yeah. And then I presume this one is a couple of years further on from that.
• 51:24
  Very sane on the part of Stephen Colbert. So just to wrap up, we were going to also have a
• 51:29
  think about, for many people listening who are interested in being writers like Stephen Colbert,
• 51:36
  but perhaps writing fantasy novels. And I know this is an area Jacob that you'd love to break into.
• 51:41
  Right. And I've just sort of got a new contract to write a new
• 51:49
  children's book which has a foot in the fantasy market. I thought it might be a good idea,
• 51:53
  just have a touch base about what's happening now in publishing. Yeah, area.
• 52:00
  And we'll keep dipping back in as I go through this year until publication.
• 52:05
  So what have you got to tell me? Yeah, so tell me, so with the changing face of all these
• 52:11
  different things, so clearly there's a demand for it, right, with impossible creatures being
• 52:16
  optioned by Disney, then kind of seeing that as their kind of Harry Potter Fantastic Beasts series.
• 52:23
  So this is something that places are looking to find new voices, to find exciting stories that they
• 52:30
  can then turn into intellectual property, to state it craft. They're looking for good stories.
• 52:36
  Yeah. They can exploit that people will resonate with people and that they can help to
• 52:43
  help, you know, sprout different, different media, different. So how do you, how do you do that?
• 52:50
  Exactly an interesting example, because that's by Catherine Rendell, who I know a bit.
• 52:56
  I was, I reviewed one of her very early books and went to dinner with her. She has a role
• 53:06
  all-souls, which is like this completely bizarre college with no students. It's just
• 53:14
  right by the Bodleian. It's, it is something like something from a fantasy, you know,
• 53:19
  Philip Paulman or something. I haven't read him, I have read some of her other work,
• 53:25
  but she's known as a very literary writer. Right. Yeah. And she's also done a well-regarded
• 53:31
  biography of John Dunn, for example. So she's not this sort of academic side to her.
• 53:37
  So I haven't read impossible creatures, but I know she said it's been optioned by Disney.
• 53:40
  I'm not aware of it having been a runaway bestseller here. So it's interesting that a property
• 53:45
  like that, which doesn't have a big following, not like the how to train your dragons,
• 53:50
  has been picked up. So that tells me I must go and read it and see what's going on there.
• 53:55
  It is. Yeah. And this is, and this is what I think what I'd love to hear like as you're
• 53:59
  approaching this. So clearly like money's been put. So Barnes and Noble, here in America,
• 54:03
  picked it as one of their book, book of the year, you know, for young readers. They have
• 54:07
  different editions, you know, like printed, you know, on the spine, you know, they have like a
• 54:10
  griffin edition. There's different editions you can get. My child got stickers. They have
• 54:16
  their sheet of stickers, four kids of all the different mythical creatures. They're on the back
• 54:20
  of his high chair. So they came up with, you know, there's, there's clearly a lot of marketing
• 54:25
  money that was behind it from the get go to position this as a book that they wanted to be successful.
• 54:31
  So part of it probably is due to the publishing publishers decision to like to put, you know,
• 54:38
  to go all in on to put extra market funds to promote this book. So as you're looking with
• 54:45
  you're with your project. So as you're approaching publishers and the first is did did did did
• 54:50
  the marketing and positioning of the story that you wrote did that play any role as you were
• 54:55
  developing like the idea and yeah. So obviously I'm in different position for somebody who's a
• 55:01
  debut because I've got I'm having conversations already with people at parties and, you know,
• 55:06
  that stuff, the networking stuff. So how this particular one came about was I was having a conversation
• 55:12
  with some people at my agent's retirement party asking what are you looking for? What do you want?
• 55:20
  And this concept came up, which I thought, oh yeah, that is a that is a good area to be writing in.
• 55:26
  So it was just a couple of lines about the kind of area they were looking for. And if you know,
• 55:31
  if you can see what publishers are looking for, look at wider culture and think, okay, so what's
• 55:36
  really hot at the moment? What's really, you know, if it's a massive year for football, for example,
• 55:43
  there's bound to be football books. If it's a massive year for space, there's going to be people
• 55:48
  writing about Jordan going to space. It's this that simple. And I then developed something
• 55:56
  out of that. Finally enough, I did actually go the person I had the conversation with didn't
• 56:01
  pick up my email. So I ended up just sending it to my agent once I'd written it. And then she
• 56:07
  went out to the market with it and ended up with three publishers interested. It all happened
• 56:12
  super quickly. So I had a new agent who taken over from the retired agent who came in wanting to
• 56:18
  prove herself. That helps. I had been away from writing for Jordan for a bit because I've been
• 56:24
  writing for adults. So I haven't sort of been going out a lot recently to the same people that helped.
• 56:32
  And the concept, everybody could see, before they even read it, they thought, oh yeah, they
• 56:39
  the what they call the elevator pitch. Yes, this seems timely. I will tell, I will share what
• 56:45
  that pitch is later once we've sort of got it further. You don't want to be picked post by somebody
• 56:49
  else doing it, you know. And so I haven't had a sort of three way competition for a book
• 56:58
  ever. I don't think I've had rumbles of interest around titles, but then I've got into
• 57:04
  relationships with a particular publisher and stuck with them. And so it's not been that.
• 57:09
  And that was very exciting because it's sort of tests the idea, the theory of the case.
• 57:15
  So we're so we've got us born who are a specialist children's publisher in the UK who are
• 57:22
  publishing here, but it's going out around now to overseas publishers hoping there'll be it'll
• 57:29
  be picked up for translation and where as looking at it from a sort of marketing point of view,
• 57:35
  where you as an author want to make money is getting it picked up for being translated into other
• 57:40
  languages. That's where you make money initially. And if you get a film deal, well, that's, you know,
• 57:46
  that's the thing, but for the ordinary author. So if you're thinking of a pitch for a doc for your
• 57:53
  own story, it's good to have an eye on what the rest of the world is up to. Would this sell in
• 58:01
  Germany? Would this sell in Australia or Japan or whatever it is? You can't obviously
• 58:08
  sometimes something that seems quite parochial like Harry Potter's very English. That actually
• 58:12
  is part of its selling point. So it doesn't, being local doesn't matter. It just I suppose means
• 58:18
  is the world sharing this cultural moment, ready for a wizard or an impossible creature or whatever
• 58:26
  it is. So that's what's going on there. So once you, I would say if you're sitting out there thinking
• 58:32
  I really, really want to get published. And I'm listening to Julia talking about having a good idea.
• 58:39
  I'm going to go and share. I'm going to have got lots of good ideas. I'm going to go and ask a
• 58:43
  publisher if my idea is worth writing. No, no, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop, stop. What you've got to do
• 58:49
  is you've got to sit down and write it. So after my conversation with somebody where I said,
• 58:54
  oh, I know exactly what I can do there. I've got really good idea to fill this slot. I spent November
• 58:59
  in December writing it. And by the way, middle grade books have got a bit shorter than when I
• 59:06
  lasted. Yeah. So what's the word count on yours in the general range? Well, it's just under 60k.
• 59:13
  It's about 59k. That's a bit long. We may even try and trim it down, but it's quite hard because
• 59:19
  of the plot to trim it down. But when I first started out, 60k was like a minimum. It used to be in
• 59:25
  the contracts at least 60k. And adult books would be at least sort of, you know, 90. And YA books
• 59:35
  would be in the sort of 70 to 80, 1000 words. But modern children, the way it's going to be presented
• 59:42
  will be easier to read, more white space, more illustrations. This is all to do with the modern
• 59:49
  child and the sort of visual culture they're moving in. So don't write long. If you've got a
• 59:54
  children's book out there and it's 100,000 words, wow, no, you know, really don't bother. Someone
• 1:00:02
  is going to fall at the first fence for a middle grade. Of course, there are big fantasy
• 1:00:07
  epics that get to that point, but that's for an older age range adults and upper end of YA fiction.
• 1:00:18
  And then so you go in with your full manuscript and then you start in this process with the edit.
• 1:00:26
  And what's happened in this case is that the, you sort of, the contract negotiation happens
• 1:00:33
  with, in my case, an agent and the publisher, that kind of happens out of your hands. You just
• 1:00:40
  appear words coming back. And you get going on what you're going to do next.
• 1:00:48
  And before that, Julia, did you, did you, the new agent that was taking over the other agent?
• 1:00:52
  I know that in the process that typically you'll get notes from your agent. Like you get this
• 1:00:57
  still send notes on your new, yeah, so you're an established writer and you have, and you've been
• 1:01:02
  with an agent, but then you have a new agent. Did you receive notes before this, your new agent
• 1:01:07
  went out? Did they give you any notes on the manuscript before then they took it out that you
• 1:01:12
  had to address? Yes, my previous agent would occasionally as well, particularly if we were going out
• 1:01:16
  to market, it was something new like this. And my new agent is called Molly Kerhorn, who happens
• 1:01:21
  to be American. She's wonderful. And so she gave me a round of comments in early Jan. I always
• 1:01:29
  deal with things very quickly because that's just the kind of way I am. And so I sent it back to her
• 1:01:34
  a week or so later. And then she went out to market and we, when we got the contract in PEP. So
• 1:01:44
  that was, that's, that's quick for publishing. Okay. And it's because this has a particular
• 1:01:49
  timelyness to it. Normally, things are on a sort of two years schedule where it's, this is on a,
• 1:01:58
  it will be out in January. So it's on the fast fast. This coming January? Yeah. Oh, well. Yeah,
• 1:02:04
  that was quicker than anti-circus. But let's move in parts in a book. Yeah. So. Okay, so that was
• 1:02:13
  so it was revised. You'd already had done some revisions before then your new agent took it out
• 1:02:17
  and then with the bidding between three different publishers. I would say to aspiring authors,
• 1:02:24
  don't be an author if you don't like reacting to other people's edits and notice. I actually love
• 1:02:30
  it because I regard it as I've presented something that is only got my wisdom in it.
• 1:02:39
  And there is a wisdom that other people can see it more plainly. It's the same with I've just dealt
• 1:02:44
  with the first round of editorial notes and sent it back. So I'm in second draft officially now.
• 1:02:50
  And the editor from your publishers. So now you've got some publisher, they've looked it over
• 1:02:54
  and so then the so the editor at the at us foreign that you had they have notes on it. And so you
• 1:03:00
  have you have you have you addressed those notes yet? Yeah, so how that happens? How that happens
• 1:03:05
  these days. I actually have been writing long enough to remember when this was all on paper.
• 1:03:11
  Now you get track changes on your document. And in us, but I always have two people look at it.
• 1:03:17
  A senior in a junior editor. So you got two sets of marks and the comments. And then you get a very
• 1:03:23
  fullsome covering letter, which kind of gives it sort of more as a thematic organisation to why
• 1:03:30
  what their comments are about. A very full treatment. And it was quite funny because
• 1:03:40
  my my new editor, Rebecca, she was sort of saying, oh, you know, if you want to call after Easter
• 1:03:47
  to sort of talk these through. And I say, no, no, no, no, I'm just not going to knock these off.
• 1:03:50
  I think you're right. You know, some of the comments actually were things which I found quite
• 1:03:55
  maybe for a bit of geriatric. So there were some sensitivities now about descriptors and things.
• 1:04:01
  I'd left off the page any kind of ethnic descriptors because I know they're
• 1:04:06
  but apparently I hadn't sort of really cut them down to the fact that you can't mention
• 1:04:12
  for Chun's books for child characters. Wait anymore. So there's certain things where they help me
• 1:04:19
  sort of update myself because they weren't neat. They were not necessary. And I can see why. And
• 1:04:27
  there was there was sort of a we we we changed something about the background of the main character
• 1:04:33
  just to get away from some negative stereotypes. So that that's also good because you come
• 1:04:40
  carrying in in my case, I live in Oxfordshire and I'm, you know, the age I am. And so I've got
• 1:04:46
  a whole set of baggage which I don't even know I'm carrying. And that's one of the jobs
• 1:04:51
  of younger people in the editorial team is they're closer to the sort of the libraries, the teachers,
• 1:04:56
  the kids who are reading the stuff. Or at least where the market is. I don't know if it was a kid
• 1:05:03
  right. Not much but where the market is. Right. So there was one comment, for example,
• 1:05:08
  I had an insult in it where somebody called somebody else a pillock, which is a very mild English
• 1:05:17
  sort of, you ridiculous person. But there was a little mark saying, oh, this would put people
• 1:05:25
  off using as a class reader. Oh. So why don't you use it something because maybe they think it's
• 1:05:33
  more rude than it is. It's not rude. So we went for a different one that doesn't raise the same
• 1:05:41
  issue. So even though something like that, which I was not using anything anywhere close to
• 1:05:47
  anything sweary. But still it was in that sort of, oh, that's, yeah. And that's interesting.
• 1:05:54
  Okay, so marketing wise, right. So that means that your editor is looking at this is not just
• 1:05:59
  a book that people are going to pick up at waterstones, like a pair. Because it's with middle grade
• 1:06:06
  and below, it's really the gatekeepers, so it's the librarians, the parents that are buying
• 1:06:10
  these books for the kids. So they're looking at what the gatekeepers might think of a term like that.
• 1:06:16
  And so they're seeing it as something that could be used in school as a book to read in school,
• 1:06:19
  rather than just saying, I'm just putting this on the shelf at a local bookstore. It looks like
• 1:06:23
  it sounds like they're, they have a broader view that they would like this to be, have a broader
• 1:06:27
  appeal. And so that's why they're making these kind of fine tune edits. And that seems very helpful
• 1:06:32
  to position you as best as possible. And I'm assuming that they'll also be putting marketing
• 1:06:37
  funds behind their, if they're just suggest that this and either like placing reviews or
• 1:06:43
  interviews at different things to say, like, okay, this is a book that would be good for a school reader.
• 1:06:49
  Yeah, twice as girls at school. And you know, it can be read out aloud in a class without
• 1:06:57
  offending anyone. Right, right. So you don't want to make it to Anadine, of course.
• 1:07:05
  So my main character does sort of have her own. It's not so much swear words as like curse words
• 1:07:13
  or exclamation. So I've got like a bit like an end might say, root and twig, you know, those
• 1:07:20
  are equivalent. So I had fun inventing that she could say. Okay. Just sort of fun things to make
• 1:07:28
  you giggle, but not to make you feel, oh, that's naughty. Right. So you can sort of inject the energy.
• 1:07:34
  I think it's all about the energy in the text. You can inject the energy. You don't have to
• 1:07:38
  shock. You can use in this innocent world, I'm creating.
• 1:07:46
  That it has those elements, which hopefully kids will find fun. So we'll we'll get back into
• 1:07:52
  this later because the next stage will be I'll tell you about working with illustrators and maps
• 1:07:58
  and that kind of things, which are standard, like absolute core fantasy fun things to do.
• 1:08:03
  In terms of the level of fantasy in this, it's a kind of alternative world to our real world.
• 1:08:10
  So it doesn't have magic. It's just got a sort of extension of the steam age into the 20th century.
• 1:08:17
  So the technology has worked out to be different.
• 1:08:22
  And there's an element of more sentience in animals than there is in the real world.
• 1:08:27
  And unless you've got a very well trained dog, but you know what I mean, there's an element of
• 1:08:32
  a slightly slight fantasy sprinkle without going straight over into a sort of a magic economy
• 1:08:41
  or anything like that. So it has a make, but yeah, it has a make believe element to it without
• 1:08:49
  without being elves and orcs. Yeah. Okay. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.
• 1:08:54
  So right now, so I haven't got an official title for it yet. So it is the Junior Gaming project.
• 1:09:00
  So I've all announced the name and the title. Next time. Okay. Great. Yeah. So this is so
• 1:09:05
  so right now it's at so you've worked with your editors and like your your edits to the text.
• 1:09:10
  Those are all in and moving very light touch from here onwards. It will be like the fine tuning
• 1:09:16
  of, you know, how it was set on the page and the, you know, those sorts of things.
• 1:09:21
  The line edit if there's anything you need to do in on that front, but probably already done that
• 1:09:25
  more or less. Yeah. Great. Look forward to hearing more about it. Yeah. Thank you for your time, Jacob.
• 1:09:32
  You're welcome. Happy to happy to talk with you.
• 1:09:39
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