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When the Personal Becomes Professiona:l Practicing Law After Loss · Coopers' Code

• 0:00
  Going through the, the trauma that we went through with Theo's
• 0:03
  illness and his death has humbled me, has made me a little
• 0:08
  softer to clients issues because you always want them to feel
• 0:12
  their problem is my problem. I, I hear you.
• 0:15
  I, I know what you mean. I want to do what I can to help
• 0:19
  you. You know, you always want to
• 0:22
  make sure the clients feel you have their back.
• 0:24
  It was very hard to deal with Theo's passing and his illness,
• 0:29
  and having a law practice where I felt I could still do good
• 0:33
  things was helpful, I think, for me to keep my sanity.
• 0:38
  Howdy, and welcome to the show. Cooper's Code focuses on legal
• 0:42
  issues and notable practitioners, distilling wisdom
• 0:45
  so we all achieve the best results for our clients.
• 0:48
  I'm Miles Cooper and I'm thrilled to share Part 3 of this
• 0:52
  conversation with John Fader. As you're working on cases or or
• 0:59
  thinking about ways to help communicate, are there any
• 1:02
  tools, any individuals that have come up for you that you feel
• 1:07
  are are helpful in in in that? Robert Bailey wrote a great book
• 1:11
  that I still refer to all the time called Show the Story and
• 1:16
  Confucius basically had a saying from 500 BC.
• 1:23
  Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I may remember, but
• 1:30
  if it involves me, I'll never forget it.
• 1:33
  And, and the the point is, you want to tell them, you want to
• 1:36
  show them, but you have to find a way to motivate them into
• 1:40
  thinking their verdict on this case will make their lives
• 1:44
  better and their their family safer.
• 1:48
  You know the old reptile theory? Yes, so going to lectures has
• 1:52
  been really helpful for me. Like I first heard Rodney Jew,
• 1:56
  who was a jury consultant, talk about a problem that developed
• 2:00
  during World War 2 that a engineer named Abraham Wald WALD
• 2:06
  helped correct. The United States was looking at
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  suffering tremendous casualties of their bombers in Europe in
• 2:16
  the early part of the 40s was. This the B24.
• 2:20
  Yes, OK. And so they were, they looked at
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  all the planes that came back and they analyzed where the
• 2:28
  bullet holes were on these planes.
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  And there was a tremendous amount of bullet holes in the
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  wings and on the in the fuselage.
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  And the initial design was, well, we better get a lot more
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  armor on those areas because look, all these bullets are
• 2:46
  hitting this part of the plane. Now, if you heavily armored the
• 2:50
  plane, it's going to make it heavier, too.
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  So there's a real trade off because it may not survive the
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  shelling if it's too slow. But Abraham Wald said we
• 3:01
  shouldn't be looking at the planes that came back because
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  they survived. It's the planes that crashed,
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  the ones that had damage to their engine and their fuel
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  tank. Those are the ones that that's
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  where we need to, that's where we need to put the armor.
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  Interesting because these planes survived.
• 3:19
  And I think we as lawyers, we tend to be like overly reliant
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  on what we've done in the past. And we'll look at a thorough,
• 3:27
  what we think might be a thorough investigation report
• 3:31
  done, whether it's the mate team or CHP or you know, some fire
• 3:35
  department and think they, they studied it.
• 3:39
  But many of our cases have been where the CHP, the police, they
• 3:45
  just got it wrong. And so I think you look outside
• 3:49
  the box, 1 of the cases, I can't remember if you were worked on
• 3:55
  this case with me. I had a family where a
• 3:58
  bicyclist, 30 year old nurse was struck and killed by a truck out
• 4:02
  by Hwy. 280 where the lot of the bike routes are right by the
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  freeway entrance and exits in in the South Bay.
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  And the police report was all over the the decedent blaming
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  the bicyclist for pulling it out right in front of the the
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  vehicle that that ended up hitting her and passing the
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  vehicle that ended up killing her.
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  So we had a case in which the CHP found all the fault of the
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  accident was on the bicyclist, this young woman.
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  And by thinking outside the box, we arranged an expert inspection
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  of the truck. And so we were actually, we had
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  a bunch of truck experts and we actually tested the truck and
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  brought it up to different speeds and then slammed on the
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  brakes. The CHP report had no
• 4:49
  information whatsoever about any physical evidence from skid
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  marks, but the good experts that we hired, the Mark Shaddix of
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  the World, found it. And we were able, by linking up
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  the testing we did on the actual truck equipped with a big huge
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  trailer with a rig, we were able to show that the speed that the
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  truck was going in impact meant that it it had gone right
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  through the stop sign. And if we just looked at the
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  police report, we would not have seen it.
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  But I had my expert go out there right away before the CHP report
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  was even available. And the CHP report didn't
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  mention it, but some of the photographs had those skid marks
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  very faint. And we were able to get a, a
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  big, you know, policy limit settlement by proving that what
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  the truck driver had testified to was just physically
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  impossible. Looking deeper than the average
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  bear is critically important if you're going to protect a
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  client. If you're going to take the
• 5:52
  case, you have to do it right. And that means spending the
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  money to hire the best experts you can find to give you the
• 5:59
  honest opinion as to whether it's meritorious or not.
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  So if it's a medical malpractice case, we're not getting an
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  expert who's been advertising on TV that he does expert services.
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  We're checking colleagues to look somebody top notch, a man
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  or woman who's credible and honest and will give us a fair
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  evaluation without bias. You know, we get cynical, I
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  think, 'cause we depose so many doctors who have an axe to
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  grind. They're hired by the insurance
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  company. But, but I think if if it's a
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  medical malpractice case and most other cases, you need to
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  find somebody who's taking a scientific approach.
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  And David Ball has some excellent articles about that.
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  In front of a jury, you want to show how an expert investigates
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  the cause of an incident, whether it's malpractice or
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  elder abuse or a vehicle accident.
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  And so these are the steps that you must take to evaluate it
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  fairly. And you can't have a bias in
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  favor of one side or the other. You have to look at it
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  scientifically. And I think, you know, that's a
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  great way to present evidence that's way more persuasive then
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  just somebody who's a hired gun that'll say whatever you want
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  that person to say. How did you manage to get the
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  truck to be able to do that kind of testing?
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  We just filed a request to produce the truck and we hired,
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  I think it was Bill Jones. I forget who it was to be the
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  truck driver and we took it off road.
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  It wasn't at the accident scene and they consented.
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  I think that maybe, I don't know, maybe they thought the
• 7:40
  case was doubtful liability. I can't remember if, if, if you
• 7:45
  were with us when we had the the Tipton case where we had Paul
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  Kafitz on a wrongful death case, brain injury case down in
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  Bakersfield, 2 Marines heading back to the military base.
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  We're broadsided by a truck and we thought the truck had
• 8:02
  violated their right away and our clients were going really
• 8:04
  fast. We spend maybe 50 or $60,000.
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  We got a permit to close the freeway, Hwy. 58 from the state
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  of California. It was against a private
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  trucking company. We went back to Florida to
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  inspect the truck and while we were there, all of us, this team
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  of experts, the fog rolled in and there was not one shot we
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  could use a video. So there was like $60,000 down
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  the drain. Another plaintiff lawyer tried
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  the wrongful death case, which was defensed.
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  But we ended up getting a great settlement for our client
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  because I thought we were able to demonstrate through other
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  means that the trucker was not properly attentive.
• 8:47
  But I do think hiring the right experts and putting on a show,
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  it's got it like we know it's got to be visual, it's got to be
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  captivating and it's got to resonate with the jury.
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  There has to be something in it for them.
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  They have to be thinking they're making the community safer.
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  I want to pivot a bit and touch on life challenges.
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  What I mean here is you and your family went through a, a, a
• 9:20
  terrible tragedy. And yes, I'm, I'm asking this
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  from the perspective of, of a practitioner and in terms of how
• 9:32
  you were able to continue with your practice and how that has
• 9:38
  informed your engagement, engagements with your clients
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  being on the, the awful side of things.
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  And with that, do you mind telling people what you went
• 9:51
  through? No, I, I don't mind telling
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  people. My grandson Theo was born about
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  five years ago. Him, his mom and dad lived in in
• 10:02
  Glendale. So Sue and I, my wife, we bought
• 10:05
  a house in Glendale when he was born so we could be hands on
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  grandparents. And I didn't have any real
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  intention of spending a ton of time down there, but I wanted to
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  be close to him. I wanted to help raise him.
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  And then my daughter had her second child, a baby girl, when
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  little Theo was 3/3 years and three months.
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  She had another child. And one day he slurred his
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  speech and his balance was off and he went to the emergency
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  room in Southern California. They took a blood test, said
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  everything looks fine. They had him walk up and down
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  and they said, I think he's ready to be discharged.
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  And fortunately, my daughter thought ACT scan would be a good
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  idea because he wasn't quite himself.
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  And it ended up revealing a massive, deadly brain tumor.
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  They would kill him. And when the MRI came back, he
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  was three years and three months.
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  And they said it's essentially a death sentence.
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  There's no hope for survival. He had DIPG diffuse intrinsic
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  ponzio glioma. So it's right on the brain stem
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  and it's super adherent and you can't operate.
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  And so, you know, little Theo went to the Children's Hospital
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  in LA for six weeks, five days a week, under general anesthesia
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  for radiation to shrink the tumor, to try to give him a
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  little bit of quality of life because two days after he was
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  diagnosed, he could not walk, could not talk.
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  And this was a kid who was running around the day before.
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  So it was brutal. We were devastated.
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  I had really hoped that he would Remember Me when he was starting
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  high school. And, you know, I had planned to
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  give him this watch. The watch that I'm wearing now
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  is a watch that he loved and would play with.
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  And, you know, I'd planned to give that to him when he turned
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  a teenager. And a little Theo was just, you
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  know, happy, energetic little boy.
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  And so when he was diagnosed, my wife and I agreed that we would
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  bring his baby sister to live with us.
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  We'd take care of little Remy, who was only 5 months old as
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  Theo Theo fought for his life over the next nine months and
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  the doctors thought it might just be 3 months.
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  So it was devastating and life changing.
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  It was fortunate for me that I was able to have a practice to
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  lose myself in because practicing law is unpredictable
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  as it is. Some days is much more
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  predictable than dealing with a health problem.
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  And I know you went through hell with Dylan, and you and Marianne
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  were there every step of the way.
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  Yeah. And I know it, it tortured you
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  as Theo's illness tortured us. And I've always taken, I think a
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  lot and appreciated my clients resilience and fortitude when
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  they've gone through these horrible things.
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  I've always thought that that taught me things and and helped
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  make me grateful, but dealing with grief and tragedy as we
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  deal with as plaintiff lawyers was of no comfort to me.
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  When Theo's diagnosis, I I was besides myself and wanted to do
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  everything to make that his remaining days as sweet as
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  possible. But I think it might have helped
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  me be a little softer and maybe a little bit more empathetic
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  with clients now. And what do you mean by that?
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  You know, knock on wood, I lost my dad when he was in his mid
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  80s in 2008. But that's kind of a circle of
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  life thing. And, and my mom died 8 months
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  after Theo died, but she was 90 and had a had a great life and,
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  and that was again, circle of life.
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  It was her time and and so I wasn't devastated like when you
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  hear a three-year old's got a brain tumor that's inoperable.
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  But I think you know, seize the day carfidium.
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  It just makes every day more precious.
• 14:29
  Little Remy's been at our house in in San Rafael for the last
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  two weeks. She and her family came up to
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  stay with us after the LA fires. And it's been fantastic to see
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  this little girl and hear her talking sweetly.
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  And I'm her Poppy. And, you know, I love that.
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  But I think having the health problem going through this
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  terrible ordeal was a good reminder that nothing's
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  guaranteed. Yeah.
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  Nobody has control over the future.
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  You can make your best plans, but shit can hit the fan in a
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  second. And we know that intuitively
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  from our the work that we do where wonderful people lose
• 15:15
  their lives. And and that book written by the
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  Rabbi, Rabbi Kirchner that I read after Theo's illness is not
• 15:22
  why bad things happen to good people.
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  It's when because there is no why that you can answer.
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  You know, there's, you can't ever say what's God's will.
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  You know, I remember I had a rape case where the owner of the
• 15:37
  apartment building and said it was an act of God that your
• 15:40
  client was raped that night. For those who aren't listening,
• 15:44
  the look on my face was a perplexed look.
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  Yeah, this was a risk rich real estate developer in New York.
• 15:52
  I was back there for deposition. This is years ago, that it was a
• 15:55
  negligent security case. And he said that the rape, what
• 15:59
  he was trying to say was how unforeseeable it was.
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  It was an act of God, but I, I think going through the, the
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  trauma that we went through with Theo's illness and his death has
• 16:11
  humbled me, has made me a little softer to clients issues because
• 16:15
  you always want them to feel their problem is my problem.
• 16:19
  I, I hear you. I, I know what you mean.
• 16:22
  I want to do what I can to help you.
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  You know, you always want to make sure the clients feel you
• 16:28
  have their back. And I think some people would
• 16:31
  say it, it made them maybe harder.
• 16:34
  I, I know my wife was angry. And there's this psychological,
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  the just world phenomena where sometimes when something
• 16:44
  terrible happens, the experts that we've worked at has said
• 16:48
  that the clients view that the world is just the good of
• 16:50
  rewarded is always is forever shattered.
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  I didn't really have a just world concept.
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  I know that terrible things happen to great people, but it
• 17:02
  was very hard to deal with Theo's passing and his illness.
• 17:07
  And having a law practice where I felt I could still do good
• 17:10
  things was helpful, I think, for me to keep my sanity.
• 17:14
  But I withdrew from, I mean, I, I wasn't, I wasn't comfortable
• 17:20
  at cocktail parties. Hey, how are your cases coming?
• 17:22
  I don't want to bullshit about trivia stuff.
• 17:25
  I was, I was mourning. I was taking care of my family
• 17:32
  and my clients and I wasn't really networking.
• 17:34
  I kind of just came out of the shell about a year later.
• 17:38
  I think I saw you at the CEOC conference and and we had a
• 17:41
  great talk. Yeah, the reentry is can be
• 17:47
  challenging. Yeah, 'cause you, you, I mean,
• 17:50
  hey, how was your summer? How have you been?
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  I mean, it's kind of like when they know you've had a health
• 17:56
  challenge like like Dylan had and you guys having a nine week
• 18:01
  ordeal at Stanford hospital, 5 weeks in the ICU and four weeks
• 18:05
  in the main ward. That had to be torture.
• 18:07
  I know it was, but you were there every step of the way for
• 18:10
  this little girl who's flourishing and and your story
• 18:14
  has a happy ending and Theo's didn't.
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  And that's something that that I can't help but thinking about
• 18:23
  every day. I don't wear jewelry, but I have
• 18:26
  this little gold bracelet that my wife gave me that says
• 18:29
  Theodore and Poppy, and it has the date of his birth on it.
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  And, you know, he's always on my mind.
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  So when I've learned that you need to address the elephant in
• 18:40
  the room. So if my client or, or somebody
• 18:43
  I know has gone through something terrible, I don't just
• 18:46
  say, hey, how you doing? What's up?
• 18:48
  You have to, I think, use the name of the person that they've
• 18:53
  lost. You have to speak as kindly as
• 18:56
  you can realistically of them. And you have to try to figure
• 19:01
  out what their needs are. For years, I've been telling my
• 19:03
  my clients who have suffered the wrongful death of their spouse,
• 19:07
  you know, don't wait around to be called.
• 19:09
  Make the phone calls, tell your family, tell your friends what
• 19:12
  you need. And I think that's still good
• 19:14
  advice, but it's challenging because sometimes your family
• 19:19
  and friends think, oh, I don't want to bring it up because
• 19:22
  maybe John will think, you know, maybe it's a bummer to think
• 19:25
  about losing Theo. But as you know, when you have a
• 19:29
  health problem, you're for people you love.
• 19:32
  It's on your mind constantly. So I appreciate when people will
• 19:36
  ask my daughter and her husband or Sue and I, how are you doing?
• 19:40
  It's not like the pain is over just because the person's past.
• 19:44
  If you're enjoying what we're doing here with Cooper's code,
• 19:47
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• 19:49
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• 19:54
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• 19:55
  Have an interview suggestion, e-mail us at podcast at Cooper's
• 19:58
  dot law. I want to make sure that that
• 20:03
  our listeners are aware of your daughter and son in law's
• 20:07
  podcast that just came out. I listened to it yesterday
• 20:11
  morning. Episode 1 and, and it's about
• 20:15
  their journey. And as awful as that story may
• 20:20
  sound, when I, when I said to one or two people, you know, you
• 20:25
  really need to listen to this, the, the response was, Oh, I, I
• 20:28
  don't, I don't want to hear about that.
• 20:30
  It's yes, that's an awful experience.
• 20:32
  Too painful. And the reason I bring it
• 20:34
  forward and and it is so beautiful, powerful.
• 20:37
  And there are for me who went through part of that journey,
• 20:43
  there's certainly parts that are hard, but I, I, I was really
• 20:49
  floored by just how, how amazing that was.
• 20:51
  And I, I want to make sure that people are, are aware of it.
• 20:53
  So do you want to tell? People about it, yes, it just
• 20:56
  made its debut on Saturday, which was February 1st.
• 21:00
  That was the date of Theo's diagnosis with this incurable
• 21:03
  brain cancer called DIPG. And my wife and I and my family
• 21:08
  are have been raising money for, I think it's called Chad Tough
• 21:12
  and it's to raise money for pediatric brain cancer because
• 21:17
  there's not that much research done on pediatric brain cancer.
• 21:21
  And there's bound to be a solution that's found out that
• 21:23
  whether it's medication or some type of surgery.
• 21:27
  The podcast is called Worst Club Ever and Allie, my daughter,
• 21:33
  who's a therapist and a singer. When Theo was diagnosed, she
• 21:37
  looked all around for books or guidance as to how to handle it
• 21:40
  and what to say later to the surviving sibling of Theo, Remi,
• 21:47
  you know, what to say to her daughter.
• 21:49
  And her podcast is intended to help bereave parents but also
• 21:55
  the people that care for them. Like, for example, don't ignore
• 21:59
  the reality. Say, how are you doing?
• 22:01
  You know, I know you went through hell.
• 22:03
  How are you doing? So it's called worst club ever.
• 22:06
  It's available on Apple. It's free, of course.
• 22:10
  And there's some hard moments as she talks about her, her grief,
• 22:16
  the the challenges she had with her husband because her husband,
• 22:20
  Mike, who I adore, he had eight books on his night stand, like
• 22:24
  how to beat cancer using, you know, a no sugar diet or using a
• 22:31
  keto diet. So he was doing everything he
• 22:35
  could to figure out a way to save lives.
• 22:37
  We were on the phones at 5:00 in the morning talking to a doctor
• 22:41
  in Germany. I mean, he talked to everybody
• 22:43
  at UCSF, Stanford, all of the, you know, Mayo, Mayo Clinic and
• 22:47
  then overseas. And he had experimental
• 22:50
  medications flown out from Germany from a lab that that was
• 22:55
  trying to develop a medication that might be effective from
• 22:57
  DIPG. And they still haven't found a
• 23:00
  cure. And we're hoping the podcast is
• 23:02
  helpful to parents and grandparents and friends of of
• 23:06
  people that have had a horrible health problem.
• 23:09
  I take it beyond that. I I think it is a beautiful
• 23:12
  story and, and it and it is so well done and I I've really
• 23:16
  enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
• 23:17
  The first 3 episodes will be about Theo's story and then the
• 23:24
  rest will be interviews with psychiatrists, with parents,
• 23:29
  with as many people who have written books about grief and
• 23:34
  how to get past it, how to deal with it.
• 23:37
  I don't, I shouldn't ever use the word get past it.
• 23:39
  You don't get past it. You just try to do your best to
• 23:41
  live your best life. And right before Theo lost
• 23:45
  consciousness, he told Allie, don't cry, Mama.
• 23:50
  I want you to be happy. And, and so we want, I mean, all
• 23:55
  of us want to live our best lives and we have to cope with
• 23:58
  whatever challenges we're having.
• 24:00
  And I, I think there's this defensive attribution doctrine
• 24:07
  where where, you know, people hear about something terrible
• 24:10
  happening and they, for their own Peace of Mind, they want to
• 24:13
  be able to say, well, you know, they must have deserved it.
• 24:17
  And you know it, it doesn't really apply to something like
• 24:22
  this, but we know from our cases that the sequencing of the
• 24:25
  information that we give out is critically important like that
• 24:30
  The the Glaza case that you and I worked on where we had a
• 24:34
  gentleman killed, struck by a Muni bus when he walked in back
• 24:38
  of a parked Muni bus jaywalking, police report was all against
• 24:41
  us. And if you just told the story,
• 24:44
  the light was green, but he chose to walk behind a parked
• 24:49
  bus right in front of an oncoming bus, it'd be a defense
• 24:52
  verdict. But then when we learned the
• 24:55
  operator was violating the rules, eating a slim fast candy
• 24:59
  bar and she was drinking coffee, and then when you sequence it
• 25:03
  and show that it was her distraction, that probably
• 25:07
  caused her to hit the accelerator pedal as hard as she
• 25:11
  could when she saw the pedestrian trying to stop her
• 25:14
  bus instead of hitting the brake.
• 25:17
  Yeah. I just want to thank you for
• 25:20
  being willing to share the the very personal story of of Theo
• 25:23
  and your family and and how how it's informed how you work in
• 25:29
  the law. You're welcome.
• 25:31
  It's a it's a tough story. Yeah, yeah.
• 25:34
  I've cried often in the last year and a half.
• 25:39
  I, I think we were talking at the COSC convention.
• 25:42
  I was kind of the syringe guy where I would go over to Allie
• 25:45
  and Mike's every night and he'd be getting his food and medicine
• 25:49
  through either an Ng tube or a A tube through a stomach.
• 25:53
  And so they were, they would go through like 40 syringes a day.
• 25:57
  There were no needles, but it would, it would hook up.
• 26:01
  And I think I was telling you that I wish I was still able to
• 26:04
  wash those syringes and those services are no longer needed.
• 26:10
  It's hard. John, I, I've enjoyed our
• 26:13
  conversation. I at, at this point, I, I, I
• 26:16
  want to ask if there's anything else.
• 26:18
  It's a tough segue after that and I don't know that there's
• 26:21
  any, any, any way to soften it. But I, I, I want to ask you if
• 26:25
  there's anything else that comes to mind for you in terms of
• 26:28
  things that you feel would be helpful for our listeners.
• 26:32
  Yes, I, I, one of the things that I would like to say is, is,
• 26:37
  you know, when you're a young lawyer, you don't know if
• 26:39
  there's a path forward and you don't know what their career is
• 26:42
  going to look like. But I would say to any man or
• 26:46
  woman listening that, you know, approach your career with a
• 26:51
  passion and a dedication to getting it done right.
• 26:55
  And think of this as a incredible opportunity to stand
• 27:01
  up and walk for those that cannot walk and to speak for
• 27:06
  those that cannot speak. And it's the opportunity of a
• 27:10
  lifetime, I think, to to do good for people.
• 27:13
  And it doesn't matter, you know, how you start or where you
• 27:17
  graduated in law school. If you're willing to work hard
• 27:20
  and creatively and passionately, the clients will see that and
• 27:26
  you'll be doing good work. And you might be working for
• 27:30
  somebody who's old school, but you have plenty of friends and
• 27:35
  colleagues who can give you those the Pats on the back that
• 27:41
  you need to develop your career. And I'd say go to as many
• 27:44
  lectures and read as many books as you can.
• 27:46
  Cause one of the things I love about it after I've been doing
• 27:49
  this for 47 years, since 1978, is I learned, you know, whether
• 27:56
  it's reading your column last month or going to a lecture,
• 27:59
  there's always a tidbit that I take from everything that I read
• 28:03
  about. And the law is ever always
• 28:05
  changing and it's I don't, it's never boring.
• 28:09
  If you think the case is boring, send it to somebody else.
• 28:12
  So, you know, I think my lucky stars that I was able to find a
• 28:17
  career that suited my goals and, and suited my emotional needs.
• 28:24
  And I think it's helpful if you can find a partner who
• 28:27
  understands the kind of commitment that that takes
• 28:31
  because you can't phone this job in.
• 28:32
  You can't do things rodely, at least if you want to do a great
• 28:37
  job. And that means taking the
• 28:39
  concerns your client has to heart and figuring out a way to
• 28:42
  create a new life. And the hug at the end of the
• 28:45
  case from the client, Thank you for changing my life for the
• 28:48
  better. It's just like that's what it's
• 28:51
  all about. And the other thing is, don't be
• 28:54
  afraid to call lawyers you have not met to get their input on
• 28:58
  your case. Maybe you need an expert.
• 29:00
  Maybe you're looking for a trial brief.
• 29:02
  You know, I think it was JFK that said a high tide floats all
• 29:06
  boats. But there's these great
• 29:08
  listservs that CAOC has and SFTLA has.
• 29:12
  But people like you and me and so many of the other listeners
• 29:15
  that you've entered and people you've interviewed, they're
• 29:18
  happy to give you free advice to help you become the best lawyer
• 29:21
  you can be. So I'd say, you know, go for the
• 29:25
  gusto and don't just go into corporate work defending the big
• 29:29
  corporations when they get sued. Make a difference and help the
• 29:33
  little guy. Very well said.
• 29:38
  With your permission, since you were the one who brought up
• 29:41
  Karen Joe Coonan's piece. I I haven't done this with a
• 29:44
  guest before, but it, it seems very fitting as we've talked a
• 29:48
  bit about cancer in this and, and Donner Karen Joe Coonan's
• 29:53
  memory to ask you what are the five things that you're proud of
• 29:58
  stuff. That's a great question, and I
• 30:01
  haven't I it's embarrassing how little I've thought about that.
• 30:05
  I think one of the things that I'm proudest of is that I take
• 30:10
  my job very seriously, but I don't take myself seriously and
• 30:14
  I'm not afraid to laugh and to have fun and to enjoy my friends
• 30:19
  and my family when I'm not working.
• 30:22
  And my dad was in real estate in San Francisco and he had four
• 30:29
  kids. I was the oldest.
• 30:30
  When he came home from night, came home every night during the
• 30:34
  business week, we could tell if he had a good day or a bad day
• 30:38
  because it was affecting his mood.
• 30:40
  And that's one of the packs I made to myself when I got home
• 30:43
  from work. No matter how my day had gone, I
• 30:47
  would be the same dad. And so my love for music and
• 30:51
  rock'n'roll would soothe me if I had a tough day on that 40
• 30:55
  minute drive from San Francisco to San Rafael.
• 30:58
  And when I got home, I was thrilled to be with the kids and
• 31:01
  I was able to get tremendous joy out of reading them stories,
• 31:05
  giving them a bath, hanging out at the dinner table with them
• 31:09
  and just talking. So I'm proud that I was able to
• 31:13
  be there for my kids. That's one of the reasons I
• 31:16
  postponed my CIOC presidency. I wanted to wait until Matthew,
• 31:20
  my youngest, was out of high school, so I was able to go to
• 31:23
  his tennis tournaments when he was competing in tennis.
• 31:27
  And I was able to coach some of his baseball teams and be
• 31:31
  involved in supporting both Ali and Davy.
• 31:34
  So I guess I'm proud that I'm not exactly like my dad in that
• 31:37
  way because it's wonderful. As a father, he was.
• 31:40
  I don't think he realized how his mood was transparent.
• 31:44
  I think I'm proud that that I think I'm tenacious about my
• 31:49
  cases. And I care what happens to my
• 31:51
  families that I work with. And I'm proud that, you know, I
• 31:56
  do my best to mentor young lawyers and to encourage them
• 32:00
  rather than put up a roadblock. I'd like to say that I'm giving
• 32:03
  them a handshake forward or, you know, they can grab my hand and
• 32:07
  I'm happy to hold them. I guess I'm proud that I have
• 32:11
  given back to my legal community, whether it's SFTLA or
• 32:15
  CAOCAOC. I've done a lot of free lectures
• 32:19
  over the years trying to teach others trial techniques that
• 32:23
  I've learned and that I think work.
• 32:26
  How about if I turn the question to you, Can I be the
• 32:29
  interviewer? When you have a podcast.
• 32:33
  That's a good answer, Surprised me.
• 32:36
  It's deflection. Yes, it is.
• 32:38
  Yeah, like the persistent lawyer that I try to be.
• 32:41
  What about if you gave me 4 things that you're most proud
• 32:44
  of? Or three things I am.
• 32:46
  Proud of the passion that I put into the work that I do.
• 32:51
  I am proud of how I have strived to learn to live in the moment
• 32:56
  and how I am continuing to work on that.
• 32:59
  I am proud of the father that I am and the husband that I am.
• 33:05
  And I am thankful for people like you and Rich Schoenberger
• 33:10
  and others who've shown the way on how you can be a good father
• 33:13
  and a good trial lawyer. Well, that's very well said and
• 33:17
  you're a great father and you're a great trial lawyer and I wish
• 33:21
  we were still working together. That is one of my regrets 'cause
• 33:25
  I loved working with you and I think I think you're an amazing
• 33:29
  lawyer. Likewise, John, I, I really
• 33:31
  enjoyed working cases with you. So thank you very much for being
• 33:36
  here, John. Great to talk to you as always
• 33:40
  and. Thank you for listening today.
• 33:41
  Please e-mail us at podcast at Coopers dot law with questions,
• 33:44
  comments, feedback and suggestions for who we should
• 33:47
  have on the show. Like what you heard?
• 33:50
  Show us with a colleague and leave us a five star review on
• 33:52
  your podcast platform of choice. To all of you doing justice out
• 33:55
  there, happy hunting.