Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 179: Dr. Helen Alfano - What Athletes Don’t Say Out Loud: How Wellbeing Powers Performance

Transcript

179: Dr. Helen Alfano - What Athletes Don’t Say Out Loud: How Wellbeing Powers Performance · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of my big learnings is, you know, it's not about tens across the board for everything.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's about making sure the experience overall is positive or as positive as it can be for people.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And when it isn't, interrogating the why.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes those whys won't be in your control um selection, whatever else.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they will be, and they could be small things that we can change.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing, big reflection I've had is that the program and the system needs to be ready to hear the data as well.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Ryan Godsalvert and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Elite athletes are still people athletic.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Helen, welcome to the show.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Great to have you on here today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I am quite intrigued about your story, but also how you work with and support athletes and all those surrounding athletes.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I just think it just seems really interesting.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: You seem to do all of the cool bits.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all the nice bits of the job.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Spending time with people and helping them perform.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Good day.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that I think that's great.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose, you know, for me as well, the whole reason why we're we're chatting and doing what I'm doing is because I think I enjoy that too, the conversation you have, but also getting that sense of perhaps them taking something on board and the impact that it has on their performance, but then also their life as a whole.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and being able to support them as humans, I think is the bit that I enjoy most about uh my work.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's human to humans, right?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we put these people on pedestals and ultimately they're just people and they need the same support and they go through the same things as everybody else does.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's the bit I really connect with.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: For those who don't know you, just give us that introduction, who you are and what you do.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've been working in elite sport for about 20 years, although um that's very telling of my aim, unfortunately.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, the last 10 years specifically, I've been working in kind of the well-being coaching space.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: So working um in Olympic and Commonwealth sports, um, essentially supporting athletes um with an eye on them as whole people.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so not just what they put out on a call or on a mat or in a game, but very much um them as a person.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And well-being is uh a critical space, essentially.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we've finally clocked onto, especially in the last 10 years or so, the fact that if we support people well as people, the chances are they'll perform better and for longer.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very fortunate to have been working in that space the last 10 years.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: You emphasised a lot on people and human.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: What's the emphasis on that?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Was it not the same when you got into this space 10 years ago?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been developing.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think we were starting to go there.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's been sophistication um in the systems, and we've started to move from I guess this like it's just about winning.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And everything we give a player, an athlete, is about getting them to the start line and and winning, essentially, um, to actually can we get them to the start line in a good shape, ready to perform at their best, but also okay as people, you know.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if we ask how are you as a person, they could answer that positively as well.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that we've like genuinely has been being unlocked in the last few years, you know, and we're still building the understanding of but there's so much opportunity in the space.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly agree with you, and you talk about them being more than an athlete in some regards, or more than a cog in a on a whiteboard session of tactics, and you do this, get the ball here, they get that, and then off we go.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it you're seeing them as the whole individual.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're also saying, it's certainly things I've I've learned and experienced is as if you treat as an individual, as a whole person, you tend to be able to deliver more in the actual performance phase of what you're doing as well.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think it unlocks people's I mean, listen, we all know as as people, right?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: If we feel well, if things are going okay, we feel well supported, um, the chances are we do better in a day-to-day basis, we perform in our own jobs, in our own roles.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said before, these guys are just humans.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, if they feel well and their well-being is being looked after, the chances of them performing is greatly heightened as it is for us.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: But also I think there's a piece about performing well with longevity as well.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So staying in the game for longer or being able to perform at your best for longer, you know, and we know if we get some of these bits around well-being right, people will stay, but they'll also have positive experiences.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really critical.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'll have heard as many stories as I have.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: People have come out and they've achieved amazing things, but actually, you know, they're they're not in good places as humans, or their experience, you know, they don't look upon it positively.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of the shift that's that's happening in this well-being space as well.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: As in, you know, it's not always going to be easy, but can they get to the end of their experiences athletes and have had overall a positive time and speak fondly of the sport, you know, and not be a broken person at the end, but be a human that's ready to go on to the next thing.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm with you.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly not that trying not to be that broken person and readiness to go on to you know, that second wind, that that next chapter in their life.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, interesting, Helen, for you, you you don't just work across one sport in your history, you've worked across multiple sports and disciplines.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just talk about those different sports that you work through today and and perhaps in the past?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, my main um, I guess, service provision at the minute is is in netball.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all female team sports setting, which I've done a lot of over the years, but I've also been fortunate enough to work in kind of combat sports settings as well, very much individual sports, mixed genders, um, different approaches, even different sort of age span of athlete as well.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And depending on kind of where an athlete is at, um they might need different types of support.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if you're moving a 17-year-old into a program um and it's the first time they leave their parents, it's a different type and level of support than 33-year-old level player, you know, who's moved before or kind of already is married, set up in a partnership, those types of things.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So different spectrum of support, but I think often boils down to the same couple of key principles, to be honest, which is support them, you know, as people, creating a space for them to explore things, talk through things, take actions for themselves, empower them a bit.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: I guess those things are core and consistent.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I've had the sense that they'll be consistent across the disciplines and across the genders and across countries as well.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always felt that.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's great, Helen, is you you are living that.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know that because you've worked across all of those disciplines, individual, multi-team, you know.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Are those really the core principles, or do you actually feel okay, in a female team versus a male team versus female individual or male individual athletes, to what extent do you do you have to treat them?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I say treat them differently, or at least, you know, we talk about meeting them where they're at, meeting them how they're ready.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: How different is it for you across the sports and and to an extent gender?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think, listen, I I truly believe the principles of support are really the same.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, they're they're underpinned by kind of coaching principles, which is essentially you're creating a space for these people to be them hold their whole selves, whether they're a 17-year-old male or a 33-year-old female.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're helping the you're working with them in partnership, regardless of kind of you know who they are and what age they bring, and you're helping them to, I guess, unlock their resourcefulness and take positive actions and be deliberate in some of the things they're doing.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think those principles like land across.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it comes back to their humans, and you work with them as humans, whichever country they come from, whichever gender they are, whichever sport they're in.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think there's nuance in that, absolutely.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think, but the principle of nuance for me is about meeting them where that person is at as an individual.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the space that I uh work really hard to create with the athletes I work with is that, you know, I'm not gonna select you on a Saturday.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care if you throw a ball away, like you're the same person to me.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'll treat you in the same way.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll meet you in the same place wherever you're at and whatever is going on for you at that time.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that can be quite a special space for people because of athletes often don't have that really.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like somebody's always got something to say, or they're involved in their selection, or they're deciding what training they're doing the next day, or you know, they're a parent who thinks all good great things and wants to be super supportive, but unfortunately does have that kind of that judgment space and you know, comes at things with an angle.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the special space that we can create in these types of roles is that you know what, you just you I'll meet you, like you said, where you're at, but also you know, I don't I think why if you got sort of each year, I don't you know, I don't like it's not it's not my thing.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It gives them a safe space where we at least hopefully as well being what I think what you're describing there is it's important to give them a consistent safe space for them to be able to come and be vulnerable, you know, open up or or at least have someone who is they know is there and doesn't judge them because well, whether you watch the game or not, you you know it it doesn't impact your relationship with them in in any way.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think testament to that is the work I currently do with a team in Melbourne.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not based in Australia and so I do all that work remotely.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think probably at the beginning lots of people had lots of judgments on that and how would it work, but actually what's nice is what I can truly do is create a space where I haven't formed a judgment on something somebody tells me before they share it with me.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't haven't had six other opinions of it, I haven't seen it for myself.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody comes in and says, Oh, this happened today in the gym, I take it from what they tell me, you know, as opposed to actually have already formed my opinion of it.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I genuinely can create that space.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I know enough about the program that they don't have to tell me every single detail, but I'm not in it.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't lived it with them, I haven't already formed an opinion.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can genuinely and and I've been in this role for two years now and and got some really positive working relationships with people.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is in itself quite interesting, working with a high performance team in fully remote.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say, it's a couple of years.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to say, surely that wasn't happening before COVID.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Surely we didn't we weren't comfortable doing that.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, but it it just shows how, like you say, how times have changed.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess, you know, kudos to you for creating that environment and also to the team, to the high performance team.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess recognise what's important is that you can create that space.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can facilitate that, then actually it can work.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And in some in some ways it it's a benefit because I'm not hustling for the same time of of the athletes that everybody else is, you know, they can speak to me on a car journey on the way home, in the morning, in the evening, you know, at a time when there isn't also an SNC coach trying to talk to them, the coach wants something from them, a teammate's expecting something, you know.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%, you know, they're busy old days, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of people that they have to communicate with, keep on side, do something for appearances here, you know, something for a sponsor there.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I can truly sit in that space of like with a cup of tea type thing.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we can do some great work in those spaces.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I like that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Helen, I'm I'm interested in your journey in sport, you know, your love for sport.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: How did that come about?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was a gymnast myself, not not massively high level, but loved it.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then I trained uh in the sport science degree um because I was just so interested in human performance, essentially, it just fascinated me.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I fascinated in human performance.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I like the sound of that.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me, what's the fascination?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: What's human performance and what was fascinating about it?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think in its real simplest form, I loved biology, but I didn't really care what plants we're up to.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just hear of like how gosh, how are we here?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we exist and how do we get the best out of ourselves, I guess.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's what sports science offered, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is the next step is the focus in on the human part of biology, I guess, for me.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think it's I it's always just fascinated me, mind and body, but actually I focused in on the body stuff, and I was an exercise physiologist.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: My first 10 years in elite sport was as a sport scientist, you know, um, so managing the data, taking the blood, do all those bits and pieces, and I loved it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the piece I I often played was doing this other piece, the the people piece, um, alongside that role.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, were you like the sports scientist who would be chatting to you at the same time and really think so how's it going?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then just helping somebody with the C V or you know, chat I remember leaving, I was up in this working for the Scottish Institute of Sport, and one of the teams I worked heavily with the judo team, uh they had a lot of the GB athletes up in Scotland at the time.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: I remember leaving and getting a lot of cards, and it was like somebody had written like thanks mum at the end, you know, because of all that kind of emotional and moral support that you end up giving people, and they were these kind of really hotbelt, like, you know, actually it wasn't anything to do with data or the you know how well they hydrated themselves.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: That stuff was important, but for some reason this other stuff kind of resonated with me more, and these well-being roles started to become more prevalent and and get much better funded in the UK system and and hence the move.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm interested now, because this is all about that finding that career clarity and sort of that shift.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: How did you make that leap?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is very different, the that sports scientist, the exercise physiology, to being in well-being.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: How did you manage to?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, different and the same.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: As mess said, so the principles of working in kind of high performance sporting systems were the same.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess I was fortunate in that I was making a move across the UK from Scotland down to to England.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: That meant kind of leaving a role and not necessarily being sure where the next move was, and then the the well-being the role that I moved into came up.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, yeah, the bottom line of these well-being roles is being able to connect with humans, um, being able to ask great questions, offer good support, but also having that knowledge of kind of these elite performance settings, men already had kind of half a half a foot in the doors, I guess, already got the challenges, and actually it made it a fairly easy transition.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just, you know, it's not rocket science, a lot of it, it's people working with people.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I guess on its simplest form, it is, and you know, we've we've spoken about that.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting about what you said is you were in that elite performance environment, which is the environment you wanted to be in.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the first the first half of that so far was the first 10 years was in that the sport science.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's the element that that sort of really shone through.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then even though you're in the right environment, you wanted a different role, and so you shifted roles, you moved from, well, as far as I can see, one side of the um performance centre to another side.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, one that's probably we get less time on that side with the athletes.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: How does that feel?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: From being the do the data, do the skin folds, doing all of those activities to well-being, you know, perhaps being a an afterthought in that type, you know, something that we must do because it looks good, it ticks the right box.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Has that been a shift you've felt?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or in fact, how have you felt that shift from being right in the heart of the performance to possibly being a tick box at some point?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a really fair reflection and definitely felt that at times um during that move.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: However, I think I was really fortunate with the program that I I went into, and they were going through quite a significant change at the time.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so they were changing a program from kind of not very professionalised, semi-sort of centralized, decentralizing a performance program, um, looking to pay athletes better, professionalising score.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the time I came in, they were going such a through a such a big change that my ability to work with the head coach and the performance director at the time and and really influence kind of how we placed this service from the start um was really critical and you know, critical to them because they opened their arms up to it, but also just the the sheer kind of nuance of when I've meant that this was the thing people needed because actually it was really challenging.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: They had some kind of older players who it was like, Oh, this doesn't feel like a good shift for me.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then there were some young guns who were like, Count me in.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think our first player that had signed up would never been in, and we were it was England Network at the time, never been in an England programme, you know, and all of a sudden their hands are up, and and then there's these older guys going, Oh, Jenny, because I've got my life here and you know, I've got a partner and whatever else happening.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so actually, you know, at that point I was fortunate it wasn't about data and numbers, it was about what do people need to be able to get on board and really commit into this programme.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, definitely at times I've felt that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know it's a challenge across the system, that kind of tick box space.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really unfortunate because I think the UK sports system is moving a little bit away from what has been gold standard, um, with a little bit of a change in funding and things, but I've very fortunately been in right places at right times and and have people, you know, and that is critical.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's people who lead programs really seeing the value and buying into it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been very fortunate with the people I've worked with, to be honest, across the way.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: It that's I know that I've been in both in environments where from a coming from a well-being or from a career perspective, I am welcomed and I'm seen as something really positive to support the athletes to look ahead.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been in camps where I'm perhaps not shunned, but not as welcomed in.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not you know, the door's not left open for me to come in and join a meeting and and just be present in a you know, in a positive environment, but often seen as nana.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Come in only when needed.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: At times can reduce the impact because it's then seen as a special case and it's like, no, no, just this is normal.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: We are humans.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: We all, you know, from my perspective, continue to live after we've been athletes or performing at that high performance level, and sometimes we need help to figure that out.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that is difficult being pulled into different sides and having to adapt to still give the players and the athletes their best or the best support you possibly can.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And often it's not the players or the athletes that get to determine that level of input, right?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's somebody who runs a science and medicine meeting or somebody who, you know, the coach who kind of sees it as an add-on and you know, nice to have, but not in here.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not actually often that they probably ask either the wider group.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it that's a really interesting thing for me.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we well, I try and do in all the programmes I've been involved in is like review, debriefs, like get the information and ask people like what's helping, what isn't?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: How are things going?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and it sounds simple.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but actually you're coming from I guess coming from a science data background, you're probably, I'm guessing here, but you love data and working through it.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So as a result, you know, to what extent, you know, do you track that performance?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you capture data?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sort of, you know, you've got vast experience.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see trends?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen shifts in patterns that, you know, through through your measurement of information?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately to a time.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's time for it.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Every year, 50,000 of athletes have reach a point where they need to consider their life activities.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It might be a timing, injury, or they need to jump your careers between sport and a job.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach, career practitioner, and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to help those around me find their career second with.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's a different space, so it's not as objective, you made a time, great, or um, this is your level, we trust that, and so now you need to drink more or change this.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's much more subjective, but I still think it's really critical to measure both impact but also progression.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, for example, in the programme I work in now, we like three times a year, we start, we say, okay, let's debrief.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: How's this period gone?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what worked, what didn't, what do we need to do differently?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it's to capture for next time we do pre-season, some of it's to change, you know, actually, you know what?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Simple things as these massage slots, this didn't work for us.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: We need to move them in the next block.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then at least on a yearly basis, well, that has a few levels, so it's like a group discussion and there's opportunity for individuals to feed in as well.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Then at least on a yearly basis, we run a kind of survey that does give us some objective data is subjective markers that we get in objective numbers at the end of it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it asks questions like, how well do you feel supported as a person?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: How well do you feel supported in your performance?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: How well have we done communicating with you, you know, and some of these elements.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what that allows us to do is say, you know, average of eight out of ten, for example.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And what we've been able to see in the programme I'm in now is is that progression from okay, yeah, we, you know what, the first year we've got this bit a little bit wrong, but we've improved, we've increased, you know, and and yes, it is subjective, but actually we know we're moving things in a positive direction.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: We know people are enjoying their experience.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost a bit like I can liken to it in business, they use net promoter scores.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how likely would you be to recommend this to a friend?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like we do that check-in challenge.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how likely are you to say we're doing a great job?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And to say, you know, the club I work at at the minute, oh yeah, come and join this club.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting to get those kind of that information.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say, it's subjective, but it's still, if done consistent consistently, it's an indicator.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it, like you say, it just lets you know where to focus or where not to focus.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: But as you did it, is there anything that's sort of surprised you from these responses?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think the big and interesting thing is that I guess twofold really, people have personal experiences and their perceptions will always differ.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if we approach something on a programme level, we won't always make everybody happy.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes a player will go through a season, for example, and they won't be first choice on a call, in which case, you know, their experience will have been different to the person who was essentially every week to start and play a whole game.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think one of my big learnings is, you know, it's not about tens across the board for everything.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's about making sure the experience overall is positive or as positive as it can be for people.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when it isn't, interrogating the why.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes those whys won't be in your control um selection, whatever else, or and sometimes they will be, and they could be small things that we can change.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing, big reflection I've had, is that the program and the system needs to be ready to hear the data as well.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what tends to happen is, and we all do it, it's human nature, if we get some feedback that relates to us, we start the first thing we do is go to the negative and interrogate why that person said that thing and it must be about us.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right, instead of standing back and going, you know what, what is this telling us overall?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And this isn't a personal attack on us, for example, or the program.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody rates the program really low, they're not saying, Oh gosh, that general manager's awful, or that performance director's terrible, or you know, what they're saying is my experience here wasn't amazing.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's been the hard bit when you collect data in these spaces is reminding people these are the personal attacks.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not focus on, let's focus on the why it might be there, as opposed to the oh, listen, we all did it.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: You've all everybody will have had 360-degree feedback at some point and have gone, but who said this one thing that was awful, even if there were 10 brilliant things before it?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and look, uh you're right, it it is what we would probably we'd have to admit to doing more often than we would like to admit.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think in a sport environment, as much as feedback is done, provided on field and on court and things like that, I guess in that environment it's probably quite different when it's received against the foot, you know, uh an athletic department, you know, and a well-being team that, you know, across that type of leadership, because we also may not have been trained on how to deal with feedback in that way.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me on the football field, if I do a rubbish pass, they can tell me it was a rubbish pass.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, yeah, I know, I saw it.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not done after the fact.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: They don't write it down on a piece of paper.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: I received a rubbish pass.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: That was me.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're talking about me and that it's not common in sport.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, it is different, and it's asking people to flex what they're used to receiving, right?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And lots of the people in these athletic departments are in leadership in sport.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're sporting people, you know.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: They've been measured and had instant feedback in the way you're talking about, but they haven't, you know, nobody's ever said, Well, you know, I don't I don't really like program you running.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and all of a sudden it's like, whoa, hang on, that really hits hard.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like Mercy's, oh, that was a not great class.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really interesting shift.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it I think as we as systems get more sophisticated and we start to measure these things and we're trying to build things for the better, people will have to get comfortable in those in those spaces, and the great coaches, the great leaders will be.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: They certainly will be, and I think they need you know, people like yourself operating and you know, working, bringing your experience from other places in to help those particular athletes and demonstrating that a focus on well-being can support their performance, and you know, we know empirically it it can do that.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm interested, Helen, in I guess some of your you know, experiences, you know, working with athletes.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you know I focus very much here on the the career side or helping them figure out what they are more than a player.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's typically your approach to working with someone?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we talk about this, you know, personal treatment like a human.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: What typically is your approach to helping them?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm interested where you typically find that they struggle.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really interesting.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's a whole spectrum of support.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be uh supporting a player to have a challenging conversation with another player.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they these other players than something that doesn't fit with our values, for example, and we need to hold them accountable.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I could be spending time with them on that, to spending them time uh in a similar realm that you work, you know.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: What does the next bit look like?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: What's the career path after this?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: To actually they need to manage the fact that they weren't selected this week, to actually there's a divorce going on at home, you know, or there's some disruption, or there's a house move, or and for me it can be a real spectrum of of support, and that's where the core of the role comes to for me down to the coaching and asking good questions and providing a safe confidential space and actually just being, I guess, prepared to work with a bit of everything and anything.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you'll know this as well the more you spend time in the space, the more you've got a oh, I've had that before.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how this works best, you know.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not for me, it's not about necessarily advising or telling somebody what what to do, it's always about showing, helping them find the right path or the right next move, right next step, however small that might be.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those principles go across all those examples, right?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: But there really is a big spectrum.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even when you, you know, my the majority of my time at the minute is in one female sport, they're kind of 20 to 30 years old.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in theory, it's not a big diverse population, but the spectrum of support requirements really can be quite huge.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: All walks of life coming into that sport and that team, because the beauty of you know, the sport is it just pulls people from everywhere.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: As long as they're good on the court, then then they're they're in.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you get that diversity.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: How do you prepare for that?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's gonna be this broad spectrum.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do you get yourself ready to deal with that?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me personally, I just try and create the space for me to be truly present with people when I can.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can't be, I'm really honest as well, as in you know, I'm calling you back quickly, I've got five minutes, this is what you've got of me, or you know, I can chat, but my kids are in the background, or something else is happening.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's a sense of kind of preparedness and being able to listen attentively and give somebody my attention and creating some space before I go on a call with somebody or before I spend time with somebody often helps me, like a quick five minutes, where am I at?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: What am I bringing today?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: type thing as well.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, often helps.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Although working in Australian with a time zone difference with Australia, often that's like 6 a.m.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So quite a cup of tea for two minutes before I jump straight on.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also I think it's about like being a bit forgiving of myself in a conversation as well.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've got some, you know, great relationships with players where I've even been able to ring them back after something and say, I didn't do great in that conversation with you, I'm really sorry.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let me go again.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And how has that been received?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really well, really well.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because listen, like I'll say it, yeah, we're all human, right?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: We make sometimes we're not our best selves, sometimes we don't manage conversations great.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And people actually really appreciate vulnerability, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: People connect with other people when they're vulnerable.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: We know all this stuff, it's in the research and psychological safety and all this other great stuff, you know.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, yeah, it's really hard to do as a person, but people respond really, really well if you just go, I'm really sorry, I really messed that conversation up with you, and I came from the wrong position and I shouldn't have.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let me try again.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, actually tends to land and we're all, you know, we're all quite forgiving naturally, I think, especially in these types of spaces, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I suppose we are.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's good, you know, I'm actually thinking back to myself.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Have I ever rated myself low enough in a conversation to then phone someone back and say, hey, I didn't do that well?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm questioning myself, thinking, I really should have done that at some point, because I couldn't have been great all the time.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So what have I missed?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So and and I have to reflect a little bit more after my conversations and think, what could I have been doing better there?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes I will just the next time I speak to somebody, I'll just say, Oh, maybe I didn't hit the right tone, or go in with a slightly different, I'm going to tackle this a bit differently because the conversation didn't land, or you know, really don't fail like I got the most out of it.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I have, yeah, I've absolutely had times where I'm like, I can't wait for that next conversation.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've just, you know, I've done something like maybe gone into advice mode, or, you know, made excuses for the other person, or, you know, in a conflict setting, or I've just not listened enough.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely been a couple of occasions I can I'm smiling because I can think of one specific one of them.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, she's very forgiving.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's and actually it bolsters the relationship, right?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: From my perspective, it only makes relationships better.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're quite right.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I can think of it in business context where presentation or a talk or meeting or something hasn't gone well, and sort of coming back to that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as I put myself in the this career context, I probably can't.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, interestingly, I can think of it when as an on-field coach and I look back at some of my very first sessions and just thought, oh my gosh, I just didn't see it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had, you know, them running around in a field that was five times too big or something those lines, and I didn't recognise it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, you've you've given me something new to think about as I do my um my reflection.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for and bring me a bit a bit more, another another perspective.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: So listen, so I'm I'm interested then now, because you've got a role, as you've said, multidimensional, you're never quite sure what you're going to get when you pick up the phone or when you start speaking with an individual.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to them and their career and thinking about what they're going to do, um, you know, what they're going to do after that elite level of sport, how do you typically approach that?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess thinking about the cohort who you're working with nowadays.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, we make it a priority from day one is probably one of the simplest things I can say.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So as soon as somebody joins our program, uh part of their first kind of screening conversation, I guess, is and what else?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Who are you?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Not as the netboarder or not as the whatever you know, sport it is.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And because we start that conversation early, it just becomes a piece in the puzzle, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: So alongside, like, how does your week look?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you living?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does home life look like?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those sorts of things.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's also like, and and what is the plan?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, what's next?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in education, are you working alongside what what's the longer term piece?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: We all we make that part of the everyday conversation, but we also build it into our programming as well.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is space fill, and it's really deliberate, and it's like here is a clear day off every week to go and do something that fills your bucket or gives you a different perspective.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can, let's make sure that aligns to something else you want to do, or someone else, you know, something else you want to explore, and it doesn't necessarily need to be the thing you're going to end up in.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just about trying some other things, or uh, we've got a pla player at the minute who's leaning into beekeeping, and so I'm learning all sorts of things I've never learned that before.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's kind of making it a topic and then creating a space because otherwise it's a token gesture.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise we have a conversation about it, but we don't really give you the time to go and engage in learning or the time to go into a business and explore, you know, is this a career path you want?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the crup for me is is the two, right?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is the two.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the space.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so, for example, in our pre-season, we have a a committed day off.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's always this day, you can go and do whatever it is, funny, you want to do next.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we have teachers who are still kind of getting their hours up, so they're in schools.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have somebody that's going to help in an ICU kind of as a nursing assistant, loads of perspective in that one, and it's great.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have people who are just joining, you know, engaging in education, people who are going and trying out.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: For example, we've got a player who's interested in accountancy but doesn't know what stream of accountancy, so he's going and trying different spaces.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, that is just that's really important.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I am fortunate in the world that I work in in all in Australia, that it's, you know, well-being does have a good space, you know, there's a lot of um great stuff that's going on in the system as a whole in Australia, but but but specifically netball as well.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just leaning into those spaces and then creating some opportunities for people.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, Helen, you know, we've spoken about what we do to engage with athletes and sort of creating that space.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna ask you a different question at the end than I use than I ask most people, and it's more for the athletes who perhaps have been forced to listen to this because they've been told you have to listen, you have to listen.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess I'm thinking for those athletes who are reluctant to engage with their well-being manager or that, you know, that that the athlete liaison, what guidance would you give to them to convince them, hey, it's worth having the conversation with someone like yourself?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think to be honest, the first thing I would do is ask them a question and and I would get them to ask themselves why.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why aren't they engaging?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's stopping what's stopping you?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can make a lot of educated guesses, you know, and a bit a few backed up my research in terms of it, i it could be that they don't see the need, it could be that there's a bit of fear in there.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, from personal experience, uh some of the avoidance has come when somebody doesn't know the what next, and actually then what it means I'm doing is asking some really big questions that feel hard.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes there's a bit of foot here and that leads to a bit of avoidance.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, yeah, my my big thing would be ask yourself the why.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then also reminding, I guess, all all athletes really that actually what a gift they have in terms of you know it's not gonna last forever, right?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Most uh as a normal folk go into careers in the hope that it is going to, right?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or not really knowing, but as an athlete, you know, you're not gonna be 80 and winning the hundred metres, it's just not gonna like you might be master's level, but but not in the normal space, you know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: gonna pay you to be an athlete at that age.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you know it's gonna end.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: You've got this known.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And actually that's kind of a gift for me because you go along with that, you've got opportunity, support, and time.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And not many people have that, right?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: If that somebody, you know, early 30s stuck in a career they hate and they want to make a change, like where do they even start?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have the time to explore a change.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have somebody to talk that through with unless they pay through the loads for it, probably.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they don't they don't know where to start and the guidance isn't there.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, athletes have a gift in that they do have some of that.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: You have the time to explore this unknown and the support to do it.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say, you know, lean in lean in.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you don't get your golden kind of career ticket at the end, what you do get is somebody, if they're great, who who's concerned about you and you as the whole person.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you don't get that golden nugget of what's left in the career space fully ironed out, what you do get is a non-judgmental supportive space.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again not many of us have that naturally either.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's so true, Helen.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know you talk about that gift the gift of being both an athlete to you know pursuing your dream to to really compete at that level but then also the gift of time and support.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right people are are here and on hand.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I like that question, you know, why don't you want to talk to me?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably a good thing just to pose and I do here I can echo some of those reasons as to why individuals may be uncomfortable, fearful, or you know avoiding quite simply to to start asking themselves those difficult questions about life after the game, what that career looks like and yeah it can be that challenging path to get there.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's not easy.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're not necessarily easy conversations, especially if you don't know right if you've got an idea that you you can it can be easier.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if you you genuinely like but Yeah but then but then for me then that is actually where there's the greatest gift because there's somebody to start to work that through with and you have the time to explore which again is like you could try six different things alongside your sporting career in in you know just small little you know sections but you might go in and go, you know well I don't like employment law it's awful let me go to a different to let me go and explore a different type of law or you know and and and again as normal humans don't ha who get that we don't we don't we typically don't or at least it's harder for us to find the time to then make that shift and that I think that's the key thing.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well look Helen I've just got to say thank you very much for coming on and sort of bringing your perspective to the show to the listeners and on you know everything that is sort of athlete wellbeing I'm interested people are going to be watching this wanting to get back in touch with you or follow your journey what's the best place to follow you andor get in touch so LinkedIn is probably the best place.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm Helen Alfano PhD on LinkedIn and then through that you can get some lower contact details and get in touch with me.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah wonderful um listen Helen once again thanks again for joining thank you very much been a pleasure thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast we hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's all from me take it easy until next time