Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / How Leaders Lose Their Way—and Finish Well Instead (Peter Greer)

Transcript

How Leaders Lose Their Way‚Äîand Finish Well Instead (Peter Greer) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Hey, everyone.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Peter Greer. He
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: is the CEO and president of Hope International, and he's
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: also the author of a new book, How Leaders Lose
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Their Way and How to Make.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Sure It Doesn't Happen to You.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: And so we're going to be talking a little bit
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: about leadership, about mission drift, about a number of things,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: the pitfalls that leadership comes with. And I'm excited about
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: this conversation today.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Peter, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Yeah.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I know you, you know, I kind of sort of
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: gleaned from the book that you'd done some research on
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: this topic or some, you know, some ancillary topics in
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the past. So talk about how you came to be
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: passionate about writing this book. Writing a book is kind
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: of a journey. So you've got to kind of want
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: to do this.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: You're exactly right on that. It is a journey. And
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: I guess the origin of it is over a decade ago.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: that some friends and I wrote a book called Mission Drift,
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: and we really focused on how organizations moved away from
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: their Christ-centeredness and how they moved away from their mission.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: And we wrote that book and launched it. And over
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: the last 10 years, it has been fascinating to me
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: that I think we missed something really important in that book,
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: because our treatment, our focus was almost entirely on organizations.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: And I think there were some helpful things that came
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: up and some helpful things, but I think we missed
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: The absolute connection between what happens to organizations and actually
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: what is happening in our hearts and organizational drift is
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: actually preceded by personal drift. And so you could call
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: this the sequel or maybe more accurately, this might be
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: the prequel of that of actually saying, how do we
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: drift in our own lives? And again, in recent years,
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: it has broken my heart to see how many leaders
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: had a great start, but not a great end. How
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: many leaders we've looked up to that make decisions that
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: cause us to say, what happened? And then very quickly
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: to turn that question, not just what happened in that situation, but,
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: and how do I make sure that doesn't happen to me?
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: How do I make sure that I have a long-term
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: faithfulness in the same direction? And then if there was
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: one moment that really spurred on this project, it was
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: reading a study that said in scripture, one out of
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: three leaders finished well. And the author of that, Robert Clinton,
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: went on to say, and he estimates that that probably
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: is not far off from the same percentage today that
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: only one in three leaders will finish without egregiously abusing
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: their power position in the way that they lead. And
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: to me, that broke my heart. I want to go
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: three for three out. I want to finish well, and
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: I want those that I care about to finish well.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: So those were some of the pieces that really spurred
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: the interest in this subject and said, let's study how
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: leaders lose their way, and then let's get real practical.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: What would it look like for us to finish well?
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: So I teach on leadership at Wheaton College. I do
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: an online class on biblical and theological foundations of leadership.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: And so we don't address like leadership theory or anything
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: like that. But what we try to do is look
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: biblically and sort of draw lessons for leadership out of
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the biblical text. And one of the things I'm consistently
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: sort of trying to help the students understand is that,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: you know, when you are leading according to what the
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Bible is telling you, you're constantly really looking to follow Christ,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: even if that involves losses. There's not a sense in
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: which the Bible is guaranteeing you a successful leadership career.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: It's saying you're going to follow Christ.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: And if you follow Christ to your detriment, you're still
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: going to follow Christ. How does that sort of factor
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: into the way you think about mission drift and leadership?
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, I think that addresses one of the huge pitfalls,
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: one of the huge issues that I think for a
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: lot of us, we derive our sense of identity from
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: what we do. We get our sense of joy from
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: what we accomplish. And we found consistently those were upstream
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: to minor compromises. Because if we find our identity in
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: what we do, then it's going to be so intertwined.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: And we're not going to be thinking about next generation leadership.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: We're not going to be thinking about what we can
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: give away. We're going to think about what can I
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: do in my season, in my life to maximize my
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: platform and What's the operative word in all those sentences? My, my, my.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: And we're invited. Jesus said, when you pray, what should
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: we pray? Not my kingdom come, right? There's a different orientation.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: And what trips up so many leaders is this arc,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: as has been written, that eventually bends inward.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: That has, is, and.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: Will cause leaders to lose their way when the primary
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: focus is inward as opposed to upward and outward. And
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: so I think this piece of exactly what you said,
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: identity and how we define success and how much of
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: our worth is found in what we do versus actually
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: believing that we are the beloved, like those things have
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: real life implications about whether or not we are able
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: to have a long-term faithfulness in the same direction. They're
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: not just questions that are interesting to ponder. They're questions
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: that actually shape our direction. And over time, that inward
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: arc leads us not towards a faithful finish.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Do you find, so I've worked as a consultant with
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: particularly higher education institutions, but some also some Christian nonprofits
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: over the years. And one of the things I find,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I saw one of two dynamics, really, I think I
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: could frame it like this. One were schools who just
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: saw the pragmatic challenges that they were facing and felt
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: forced to to sort of compromise, give up some things
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: and move in a different direction or die. Now that
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: either are framing, maybe that's appropriate. Maybe it's not right.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I think in some cases they were probably right. If
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: they hadn't made a strategic pivot is the nice way
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: to say, maybe that's the nice way to say mission drift.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Not sure.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Um, but, but if they hadn't done that, maybe they
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: would have died. And then other schools who are, uh,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: ardently holding to a particular character and sort of seem
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: willing to go down with the ship and not change
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: at all. As I look at both of those situations
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: and have worked with both of those types of institutions
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: and those type of leaders, really, I see sort of
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: room to move on both sides, right? I think those
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: are polarized ends on a leadership spectrum. And there's some
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: room in the middle to really continue to be missional,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: make appropriate compromises, not anything that would be, you know,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: a theological conviction or a way of moving, and then also,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: you know, sort.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Of adapt to the moment.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: How do you think about that within the context of
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: mission drift? You know, how rigid, I guess, is mission
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: drift versus how adaptable is the notion of mission drift?
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: I think that is a great question. And what makes
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: this really difficult is the differentiation between the mission and
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: the methods or the mission and the means. And I
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: would strongly encourage people to have a very clear articulation
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: of mission. And in that articulation to say, we would
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: rather shut down than compromise on this, but then to
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: be incredibly open-handed with the ways that you accomplish that mission.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: And so there are some that would say any change
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: is drift. And I just don't believe that at all.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: I think that change is necessary and change is required.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: And so just one like practical example is I live
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: in Lancaster County and you know what there still is
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: a thriving business here for is horse and buggies. However,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: in most of the country, if individuals describe their business
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: as horse and buggies versus drift, We're in the transportation business.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: Those lead you to two very different pieces. One keeps
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: you focused on a very small market for a very
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: small number of people. But the other allows you to
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: grow and change over time. And I don't want to
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: say I'm in horse and buggies. I want to say
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: I'm in transportation, the equivalent of that in the work
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: that we do. So define your mission and then be
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: understanding that change needs to happen. And I would probably
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: argue the opposite, that change is required for you to
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: accomplish your mission. change is going to be required for
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: you to do it. And so I would say there's
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: a strong differentiation between the mission and the method. One
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: hold tightly and the other hold loosely.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: That's really helpful.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: And so would you advocate for people to have sort
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: of a personal mission as well? How do you think
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: about that specific aspect of it? I know I've had
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: mission statements done in the past and It is sort
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: of eerie how often it comes up again. You know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: mine is to prod the church to learn to please
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: God together. And it seems like my thought process just
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: sort of pushes me in that direction all the time anyway.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: And so I think there is something very inherent about it.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Like God sort of gives us some sort of proclivities
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: toward moving towards something and articulating that can be really helpful.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: So how do you think about that for, especially for leaders,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: not just having a job and a position and a,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever, a platform, but actually having a mission?
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, one of the themes in the book is
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: really this idea of of drift and currents for organizations
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: and in our life as well. And if you are not,
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: if you, I mean, I grew up in New England.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: I love being in a canoe. We would do the
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Alley Gash White Waterway as kids. And even today, I
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: just love being out on the water and it is
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: just a happy place for me. But there is one
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: thing that I know for certain is if you stop rowing,
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: you will not stay in the same place. And if
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: you are there and if you do not have the
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: destination that is clear, you are most certainly not going
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: to go there just by haphazardly kind of rowing when
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: you feel like it. And so I think the two
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: things that are necessary, one is to define that destination.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: What is missional faithfulness? What is the mission? I love
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: that you have that clearly articulated. And then the second is,
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: and do the work. Connect today the decisions that I make,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: the thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors that Are they in alignment
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: with what I said that mission is for my life?
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: And one really, really helpful way to think about this
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: is I will never forget being with my grandfather when
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: he passed from this life into eternity and watching the
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: way that his wife, my grandma, grieved in that moment,
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: watching the way that his family celebrated his life. And
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: it was so clear he finished well. Like he really,
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: really did. He finished well. And so maybe prompted by that,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: maybe this is a little bit, you know, too much
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: of a downer for a podcast today. But like I
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: wrote my eulogy and I read it every year on
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: my birthday. And you know what that does? It clarifies
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: what I say will matter in the end. And then
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: I ask questions. Are the decisions that I'm making in
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: alignment with that? And so whether it's that or whether
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: we're having a mission statement and regularly reflecting on it,
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I think staying on mission requires knowing what a life
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: of faithfulness looks like. And again, for me, reading my
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: eulogy every day on my birthday, every year on my birthday,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: that is a simple way to say, am I living
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: in alignment with what I say matters most?
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so that is.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: basically, if I could summarize what I think you're saying
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: is have something that will keep you away from some
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: of these misguided pursuits that you list.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: In the book.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: It's a way of reframing and refocusing where you're headed
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: and constantly making those little course corrections in just the
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: same way.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: And I love the analogy of the current.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: You're going down a river and if you're not careful,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you end up on the bank real quick. And so
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: you're constantly trying to make course corrections. You just can't
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: fall asleep in the canoe and hope that you'll make
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: it all the way down the river. Like There has
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: to be some activity on your part to keep yourself
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: moving in the right direction and avoid things and all
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: that kind of good stuff.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: It's a great analogy.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So that's sort of the kernel here is let's have
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: something that refocuses us and helps us to stay on
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the right path, on the right trajectory, and avoid.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Some of these other misguided pursuits that we could go into.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Well summarized, well said. And I think the piece that
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: has been so sobering to me is as we had
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: the privilege of having conversations with leaders that lost their
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: way and shared so vulnerably, transparently, and then doing the
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: research on what can we learn from some of these
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: well-known situations, almost all of them said some version of,
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I realized that dot, dot, dot.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: But it's never all of a sudden. It is a
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: thousand small decisions and small compromises compounded by time. And
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: so that is one of the pieces. It's like knowing
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: it and then doing it. And again, kind of the
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: case study that we look in the book from a
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: scriptural perspective is King Solomon. He wrote the book of Proverbs.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: So many of the book of Proverbs are wisdom. And
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: yet you look at his life and it's like you
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: knew you just didn't do. And again, this is not
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: throwing shade on King Solomon. This is like, and in
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: your life, Peter, where is there a gap between what
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: you say and what you do? And it won't make
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: a big difference today, but you don't do that again
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: and again. So we really wanted to get practical, to
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: get concrete. And what are the attitudes and actions that
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: if we don't address them when compounded by time are
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: not going to lead to a place where we want
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: to be? You will never drift away. to the destination
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: that you want. I guarantee that you're never going to
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: just drift to the right destination.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: So when you, you know, when you talk to these
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: leaders and you're having these conversations, just, I know you
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: talk about them in the book and I thought the
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: chapters where you kind of talked about these different misguided
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: pursuits were really significant. What are, what are some of
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: those and how did leaders really articulate? Yeah, they, they
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: realized them all of a sudden, but surely in reflection,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: they could see the small missteps they made to start
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: moving in these places.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: And what is that? Is that the case?
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: And then how would you recommend for current leaders to
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: start noticing the smaller missteps as opposed to waiting to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: realize all of a sudden I was off course?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: It was one of the most interesting pieces for me.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: And it's sobering pieces is that almost everyone thought that
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: it would never happen to them. Almost everyone said, you know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to lose my way. And there was
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: this attitude of exceptionalism. Like, I'm the leader. It's not
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: going to happen to me. And I think that actually
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: is one of the most dangerous pieces. And the converse
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: is true. The individuals that did have that long-term knew,
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: as I just love the hymn, come the fount of
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: every blessing, those words that are famous of prone to wander, Lord,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: I feel it, prone to leave the God I love.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: That awareness leads to a seriousness of action that will
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: increase the likelihood that we will pursue where we want
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: to go and who we want to be in the
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: years to come. And so maybe that's step number one
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: is statistically important. you and I are more likely not
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: to finish well than to finish well. Like that should
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: get our attention. Like statistically, if it's true, more people
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: don't finish well than do finish well. And so believe,
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: like prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: leave the God I love. Like, so what do we do?
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: And I think that's where, again, hopefully there are some
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: helpful pieces in the book that say, let's have the
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: micro course recalibrations as opposed to waiting for some significant piece.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Down the road.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: Let's have that minor course correction. And in many ways,
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: I'm not, there are separate books and separate resources for people,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: you know, that this is trying to say, how can
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: you and I make small changes right now to get
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: back on track? And the assumption is we're all drifting.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: The assumption is we all need that recalibration today in
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: certain parts of our life. to pursue that life of faithfulness.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: So the small, small, small corrections each and every day,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I find to be the most helpful piece of really
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: having a life that stays on mission and believing, oh,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: I have, and I am drifting. I just want to
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: see it as early as possible.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: How do you see, so.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: When I've looked at this topic in the past, one
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: of the things I sort of landed on was accountability. And,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: you know, accountability can sort of become like that little
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: group you get with and say, you know, what bad
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: things did you do this week?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And, you know, whatever. And we tend to focus it.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of times it's been focused on
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: like sexual sin and, you know, the very specific, at
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: least the ones I've been involved with, like, you know,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: you get men together and that seems to be where
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: we end up gravitating toward or something like that. But
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I think with leaders, you almost need different layers of
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: accountability there. And you need to make sure that they
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: actually have skin in the game? In other words, so
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: that they can be held accountable, that they're not getting
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: to a point where they feel above the law, let's say.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: That's one question.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: And then the other side of it is, I've always
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: worked as a leader in organizations under an authority, whether
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: that's a board, whether that's another leader in the organization.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: How important is that cascade to this?
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Like, you know, an individual leader, a lot of the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: pastors we see fall, let's say. And I know I
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: appreciate in your book, you don't necessarily you're not focused
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: on just those big scandals that we've seen. But it
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: always makes you wonder, why wasn't there a group of
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: people around this person sort of constraining them and saying, hey,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: you need to get back on track? Why didn't anyone
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: else notice that the canoe was gone? You know, taking
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: a different direction. So those are sort of my two questions. Like,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: maybe just talk a little bit more about accountability. I
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: know you have the chapter on the island effect, right,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: which sort of prompted my thinking in this direction, too.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, just your thoughts on that.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Every single one of us needs to be under the
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: authority of something or someone, right? Whether it's a board
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: of directors, whether it's someone, we need it. And the
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Lord Acton you know, power crops and absolute power crops. Absolutely.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: We've seen this and this is not just for heads
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: of nations. This is heads of departments or heads of organizations.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: I got a really interesting question from a colleague at
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: Hope International who said, hey, Peter, when was the last
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: time that the board told you no for something? I thought,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: what a great question. That's a really insightful question. We
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: all need to be under authority. We all need to
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: have that. And I could give several examples of that
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: in that. And I state that as a wonderful thing.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: The moment that I'm not checked, the moment that we
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: are not checked on something is the moment that we
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: are more likely to be off track and not to
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: have anyone call it on us. But the most helpful
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: thing to me is this idea of constellation mentoring. And
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: I heard about this and I put into practice in
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: my own life and If anyone wants to download kind
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: of a form to create their own, you can go
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: to howleaderslosetheirway.com. But in it, it's basically saying, let's look
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: at the relationships that we have as a constellation and
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: change mentoring from this one-on-one model to saying, no, let's
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: think about the full range of relationships that we need
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: in our life. And so it looks at mentoring, not
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: as a one-on-one, but what are the areas that we
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: want to learn and grow? And who are the people
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: with intentionality that we have in our life? And then also,
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: kind of on the horizontal level, talk about our core four.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Who are those people that if it's 3am, you know,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: you call them and you know, they're going to show up.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Who are those people that are literally doing life with you?
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: And does your calendar reflect that prioritization? When was the
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: last time you had an opportunity to have a real conversation?
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: And how big is your box of things that you
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: know about yourself, but no one else knows? That is
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: a dangerous box. You want to get things out of
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: that box as quickly as possible. And then also thinking
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: about your prayer team, who is actually on the journey
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: with you. And then thinking about who are those individuals
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: that you are pouring. So it's a constellation. And every
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: January I look at that list and it has been
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: so helpful. It has been so helpful to just say,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I am prone to focus on work. I've got enough
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: going on with my family, I need this level of
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: intentionality to think about these relationships that are so important.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: And so that's been a change in the way that
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: I've structured my life. And it has made such a
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: dramatic impact. And then all that being said, if there
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: is no honesty, which is on you, if there's no honesty,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: all those structures, all those relationships really don't matter a
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: whole lot. We researched one well-known And it kind of
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: broke my heart to hear individuals that thought they were
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: in an accountability group, thought they were doing life together
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: and had no idea that there was this complete separate
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: part of the individual's life and feel like let down,
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: but also lied to. Like we wish that they had
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: let us know that they were struggling. We wish that
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: we had been invited in because we would have been friends.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: We would have been there. And so I think that's
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: maybe a good element for me. How much in my
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: life is not just the relationships and structures, but am
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: I being honest? And how much is in that box
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: of known to me, but not known to others? That's
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: a dangerous box that we all have.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I looked at the constellation mentoring, and I know this
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: is kind of a negative analogy, but it struck me funny.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: When I looked at it, what came to mind was
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the panopticon, if you're familiar with that phrase. Michel Foucault,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: he was like a French post-modernist and this really strange guy.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: But in one of his books, he talks about this
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: construction of a prison that somebody did called the Panopticon.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And the idea was that at any given moment, the
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: prisoners knew that they could be seen by the guard. And,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: and so when you, when I was reading through the
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: constellation mentoring stuff, I was like, that's essentially what this is. There's,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: there's no time in my life where someone couldn't see
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: what I'm doing and that that would, that would, change
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the way I behave in that moment.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Just having someone else be aware of what I'm thinking,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: what I'm doing, how I'm acting, how I'm spending my money,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: how I'm, you know, all these other things I need
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: to like recognize that there's somebody always watching and that
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: should curtail some of my behavior. So yeah, that's where
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: my head went with the constellation mentoring, which I thought
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: was really a great concept.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: So. I have not heard of that. And as soon
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: as this is over, I'm going to be Googling some
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: images of Panopticon, which just has a cool name too.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: There we go.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: It does have a cool name. So I'm interested. I mean,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: every time I've thought through these issues, right. Um, mission drift,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: personal drift, um, you know, uh, the way that sort
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: of power corrupts, uh, I get into this space of
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: how do we distinguish between power and responsibility? And so I,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I've been in positions where my responsibility was to, uh,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: increase enrollment in, you know, a particular program. And, and so, uh,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: while there's a way to do that, that's very, uh,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: easy if you have the collaboration around you. Within an organization, oftentimes,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you know, one person's goal isn't shared by everyone else.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: There's an alignment issue.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: And so you tend to start to play the politics
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: or there's a temptation to start playing the politics, to
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: start cutting corners, to start ignoring institutional things, right? How
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: do you see within the dynamics of an organization, how
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: do those influence a leader to drift? In other words,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: they have the responsibility to do X, but their organization
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: is sort of chafing against them. And so they either
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: have to fail in their responsibilities or do things that
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: maybe they shouldn't do. Did you find any of that
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: kind of dynamic?
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, one of the pieces that, again, this is
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: with a healthy awareness is We are such master justifiers
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: in our own life. We're so good at.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: It.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: We're just masterful at it. And again, this relates to
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: kind of all needing people to be in our life
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: and to call us on it. But I think we are, again,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: coming through this research and study, I have a heightened
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: awareness of my own ability to justify things that I
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: want to do that might not be best in it.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: And I think one of the antidotes to that, because
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: it's really, again, money, sex, and power, like those have
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: been around for a long time is what have derailed people.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: And we're really talking about power in this. And so
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: how do we deal with power? And what does it
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: look like for us to use that, steward that well?
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: And it was fascinating as we started looking at individuals
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: that had lived well. One of the other surprising pieces
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: that we heard again and again is that they intentionally
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: had downward mobility. They intentionally said, I'm in a position
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: of power and I'm going to do actions that are
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: not just good for the organization. Servant leadership is not
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: necessarily just good for the organization. I never thought of
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: it this way, but servant leadership is good for our
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: own hearts. There's something powerful about doing acts of service
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: that are unseen by others, except maybe the one who
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: knows us and made us. There's something powerful in that
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: downward service. So we heard examples of individuals that were
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: these leaders that were known for their faithfulness. And one
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: of the stories that we kept hearing was a specific
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: example of a modern equivalent of them washing feet. And
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: it might be them shining shoes. It might be of them.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: actively going in physically, helping every new staff member when
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: they would move. They would show up in that. It
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: might be being the first person to go and clean
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: a latrine within the organization. But there was something about
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: this sense of title to make sure that I don't
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: abuse power. I'm going to intentionally do actions regularly that
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: are going to remind me that as a follower of Jesus,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: I'm to take the posture of a foot washers. not
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: a king on a throne. And I thought that was
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: beautiful to just hear these really small but beautiful examples
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: of people that said, I got a healthy skepticism of
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: what power does to my own heart. And as a
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: check on that, I'm going to regularly clean a latrine
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: or shine shoes or take out the trash or something
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: that's going to remind me I am not above anyone else.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: We are in this together. And again, servant leadership has
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: been proven to be good for organizational culture. I never
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: thought of it in this way, but servant leadership is
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: also good for our heart and our sense of living
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: on mission and on purpose.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: It's sort of it seems like it would just take
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: you off the stage. You know, it puts you in
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: the background, which isn't a bad thing for a leader,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: you know. reminds you that you're here, yes, to lead,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: but also to care for others. You don't lose, in
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: other words, your Christian vocation simply because you're occupying a
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: position of leadership within an organization.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: And one of the fascinating pieces that's directly connected to
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: that was the leaders that finished well disproportionately were focused
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: on the next generation of leaders because they didn't see
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: that as threatening to them. They saw that as part of, hey,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: I'm only here for a time. My identity is not
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: intertwined with this title that is only interim. And there
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: was an excitement about future leaders. There was an excitement
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: about saying, hey, I don't have to do that. Let
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: me introduce you to someone else that can do that.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: And limits of self that provided opportunities for others that
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: ended up creating healthier organizations and was part of this, like,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: just get off the stage. Sometimes I was talking to
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: a friend and we're having this conversation of, if you
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: have not gone to a conference that you have not
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: been invited to speak at, that should be a blinking
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: red light. Like if you're showing up only in the
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: places where you have a role to play, like, Warning, warning,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: warning in that. And to me, it's just like, where
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: are we showing up and just cheering on others in
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: this journey? And especially with leadership, I think it's a
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: good thing to think about what have I done to
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: say no to opportunity or platform intentionally to celebrate and
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: give that to someone else. That is a good check
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: on our own heart.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: So there's obviously a reciprocal relationship, I would assume, between
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: a leader and the organization.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And so a good leader can impact an organization in
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: a positive direction. It can draw an organization back from
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: mission drift. But I would also think that my wife
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: works in health care, and so she's worked at health
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: care organizations that really lean into the high reliability organizational frameworks.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: So how do we arrange ourselves so that we make
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: it easy for people to make good choices?
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Kind of that idea.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: When I oversaw aviation at Moody, they had a very
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: similar thing. You build your processes, you build your structures,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: you arrange your organization so that it's easy for people
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: to make the right decision. Because in those arenas, you
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: don't want to leave people a lot of room to
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: not make right decisions. So how do you see, did
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: you see any correlation between how good leaders sort of
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: made their organizations better, and then how leaders who fell
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: had organizations that were drifting as well? Or was it
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: just a more isolated, the leader can drift when the
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: organization isn't, and vice versa?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: In the two-by-two of individual drift and organizational drift, there
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: is a high correlation between leader and organization, right? Those two,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: there is certainly a correlation there, not exclusively, and it
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: is possible to do others. But to me, the most
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: interesting thing is, how do I not drift? And how
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: does the organization not drift? That's the bullseye right there.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: That's what we're going after. Missional fidelity individually, as well
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: as organizationally. That is the bullseye. That's what we're going after.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: And I found it really kind of, I love what
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: you said. If I don't want to eat a ton
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: of chocolate cake I probably shouldn't always have chocolate cake
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: in my fridge, right? I mean, and to me, this
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: is the most important piece. We're trying to say, what
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: are the tools that we can put in our own
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: life that are going to help us? And, you know,
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: one piece that I just never practiced or really thought
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: of until very recently, but fasting, it's just, I didn't
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: grow up with that as something, but yeah, but it's
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: good for my soul on that. And I, I've kind
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: of rediscovered that. And, and so then what's the structure
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: to put that in place? Well, I can put it
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: on my calendar. I can like, you can create structures
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: and I can go on the journey with a couple
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: of others. It's easier when someone else is doing it
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: with you and, and you fill in the blank, the
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: same thing for generosity, the same thing for the things
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: that we matter. And, And so I don't know, I
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: guess the biggest word looking through this is awareness of
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: how easy it is to lose our way and intentionality
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: of saying, let's make sure that we have the things
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: in place on a daily, weekly, quarterly, and annual. Let's
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: make sure we have the right pieces in place that
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: are going to help us from ourselves, that are going
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: to help us recognize where drift has impacted other individual's
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: that are more godly, more intelligent than I am. How
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: do we learn from those, put pieces in place in
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: our own life, um, and maybe build our own panopticon
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: or whatever.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Well, let me, let me ask this question. Is this
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: another one of those tensions that I, I think I
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: wrestled with personally. So I was a pretty aggressive guy
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: early on in my career. I was pretty young when
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I got my first big job. Oh, right at the
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: end of my 20s and early 30s. And so, you know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: just sort of untempered aggression, ready to conquer the world
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: kind of feel to it. And as I went through
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: some executive coaching, as I, you know, just sort of
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: suffered the slings and arrows that you do with leadership
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: and had a lot more experiences, I've calmed down an
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: awful lot over the years. And so how, you know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: as we're looking at developing this sort of non-missional drift postures, Right.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: A real desire to be on mission, to serve God,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: to sort of aim toward that. How do you see
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: that impacting leaders ambitions? You know, their their drive to
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: do X, does it just reorient? Does it does it
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: sort of go away a bit? You know, does it retrain,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: you know, does it transform itself into something else? How
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: does that play into all of this?
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. How have you seen
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: that in your life?
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I will say, I mean, I think.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: One thing I've had to get used to is being
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: okay with failing. Like I can't expect the success just
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: to happen. And I can't make the success happen. And
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: that's been one of those that I've had to sit
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: back and say, this is really frustrating because I could
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: actually make this happen right now. Just the things I
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: would have to do to make it happen aren't particularly appropriate.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, they probably aren't, you know, the most evil
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: thing in the world, but they certainly put me in
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: the driver's seat. And, you know, it runs the risk
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: of me doing things that I just don't feel are
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: appropriate anymore. And so like there has to be that
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: sort of what I've found is there's a level of comfort.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: I have to get into that that it's OK to fail.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: And then I in doing that, I've had to sort
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: of wrestle through a I would say a season of passivity.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Right. Where that sort of left me with, OK.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm just going through the motions and whether
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: this happens or not, you know, whatever. So now more
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: of a like, hey. The ambition has to be to
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: point to and glorify God in all things. That doesn't
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: preclude hard work. It doesn't preclude a vision for something
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: in the future. But what it does is it means
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: that my desire to point to and glorify God can
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: never be overshadowed by this vision for the future.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: It has to be encompassed within it. Those are really key.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: And again, I mean, I think that, you know, that
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: sort of arc for me took place over maybe a year,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: year and a half after I switched out of higher
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: ed and came over into a nonprofit organization. Like that
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: transition was sort of a reflective time for me. But yeah,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, even now, I think it's difficult being involved
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: in entrepreneurial ventures and different things like that to move
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: with the same sort of ambition I did early on
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: in my career, right? While also, and I would say primarily,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: demonstrating the sort of character that I feel is commensurate
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: with a person who claims to be a Christian.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: So good. Yeah. No, well said. Yeah. Maybe just echoing that,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I find that over time, I hopefully am elevating what
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Jesus summarized as what it's all about. You want to
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: summarize all the law and commandments? Here we go. Love
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: God and love your neighbor. And sometimes if we are
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: going about the goals that we have in a way
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: that actually is not loving of neighbor or is not
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: in alignment, and that hopefully is growing sensitivity that our plans,
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: our goals, our objectives, what we're going after cannot undermine us.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: Those pieces of loving God and loving others. And so
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: hopefully having a little bit more awareness and sensitivity to, yeah,
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: you're going after that goal. Do you realize you're crushing
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: the staff? right now in that pursuit? And those two
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: should not be able to fit together if we really
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: have our loves in the right prioritization. So I'm still
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: big on like, yeah, let's go. Let's run. Let's be
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: excellent in the work that we do. And let's make
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: sure we also are keeping what we're told is the
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: summary of it all, first and forefront in our minds. Yeah.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Last, we're getting toward the end of the interview here.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: So I want to, I wanted to dive into one
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: other chapter, which is that the need for speed. I
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: thought that was like when I was reading through the
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: table of contents and kind of deciding which chapters to
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: start with.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I don't necessarily read them all in order.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: The need for speed caught my eye because I'm like,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: that's not what I would have that is not the
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: title I would have expected in a mission drift book.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: So can you talk about that chapter just a little bit?
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that was one of my favorite parts of
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: the research because I did get the opportunity to go
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: in a friend's car. That is a performance, uh, vehicle
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: that is very different from the vehicle that I drive. Uh,
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: and in this vehicle, it was fascinating that, uh, when
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: you're in sport mode, um, it like literally the dashboard
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: blacks out. It literally, everything blacks out.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: And why?
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Because the automaker said, your focus has to be on
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: one place in one place zone. And it's just the
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: road right in front of you. And I asked the driver, um,
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: as well, I was like, what is it like when
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: you're doing that? He's like, I am not seeing out
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: the side, my peripheral. I have a narrow, the faster
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: I go, the narrower my area of focus is. And
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: I thought that's a pretty good analogy. Uh, for all
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: of us. The faster that we go, our ability to
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: see the impact on the people that are closest to us,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: it goes away. I'm not able to see the impact
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: on my kids and on my spouse. I'm not able
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: to see the impact because I am so focused on
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: my little narrow window of what I'm going after. And
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: that is a dangerous place to be. And as it
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: relates to mission drift, when I'm focused on that, you
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: know what I'm not seeing? I'm not seeing where I
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: actually am. I'm not able to see Am I at
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: a place of health in my relationship with Christ? I'm
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: not able to see, am I a place of health
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: in just even my physical body? Like, no, because I
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: am exclusively focused on that. And I think this is
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: where oftentimes we believe that we're given nine commandments and
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: one suggestion of actual, like we're supposed to be people
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: that stop, that pause. And part of the gift of
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: that is to look around again when you slow down,
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: You can look around a little bit more and say,
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: where am I drifting? Where am I on track? And Lord,
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: would you help me to get back on track? And
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: if we're going so fast, we never, ever, ever will
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: have the ability to swivel our head and to actually
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: look around at where we currently are. And that leads us,
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: as we previously shared, all of a sudden, I realized
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: that I was not in a good place, even though
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: there probably were some warning signs along the way.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: So I'll ask this sort of as the closing question.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about awareness. We've talked about sort
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: of the constellation of accountability. If somebody is listening right
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: now and they're a leader and they're saying, gosh, I
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: don't have any of this. I don't even know where
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: to start. So now I'm aware that I could fail.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: I'm aware that I'm likely to fail.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Where do you think is a good first step for
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: folks beyond awareness, beyond the constellation, beyond some of the
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: things we've mentioned?
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: What other tip would you give people to say?
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: If you're not doing this, this would be a great
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: thing to consider so that you can avoid mission drift.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, it does relate to a little bit
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: of what we were already talking. I think you want
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: to take the first step, have an honest conversation with
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: a friend and say, I've got some concerns right now
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: and I would love to be on the journey with you.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: What a great starting point of that. And isolation is
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: another one of those blinking red lights that we need
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: to pay attention to. So I don't know. First for me,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: you get one phone call before you end up in jail.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: Don't make the call when you're in jail. You get
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: one call before you end up in jail. Make that
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: call now and say, I would love to be on
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: the journey and don't be afraid to go first. Say,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: I got some questions about kind of where I am
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: right now and I just love to go on the
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: journey with you. And my guess is whoever you're sharing with,
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: they got some stuff too. They're going to be on
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: the journey with you. And I don't know. I just
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: think that is such a huge part of this is
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: who are we doing life with and how much, yeah,
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: are we brave enough? Are we courageous enough to say,
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: I've got some questions. I've got some concerns about how
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: I'm living. Um, and I don't know if left unchecked
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: this path that I'm on is going to lead to
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: the place that I want to go. Yeah.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Very good. Well, Peter, thanks so much for being on
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: the show.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Uh, why don't you get the website one more time
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and then we'll also include in the show notes, but
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: go ahead and give the website one more time for
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: the book.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Super kind.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: How leaders lose their way.com. And there's a ton. You
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: don't even have to read the book. Like there's a
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: bunch of tools that hopefully are helpful to people that
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: want to put some of these ideas into practice. So
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: Just the title of the book, How Leaders Lose Their
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Way dot com. Okay.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: And we'll have the link in the show notes. So
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: IVP gives us 20% discount. So if you use the code,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: if you buy it off IVP Press and you use
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: the code, you get it for 20% off. I'd really
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: recommend the book. I enjoyed reading through it. I think
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: it's a fascinating study. And I love the shift from
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: organizational mission trip to personal mission drift. I think when
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: I read the introduction, that just really caught my attention.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: So this has been a fun conversation, man. I really
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. And yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Thanks for the work. It's really insightful and helpful.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: Both ways. Come on, let's go. Let's finish well.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Here we go. Definitely. All right, everybody.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Well, check out How Leaders Lose Their Way. Click that
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: link in the show notes. Follow the show. And thanks
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: for sticking with us. We will catch you on the
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Take care, everybody.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.