Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #39 Guilt-Free Advice from a Divorce Coach & How to Handle Your Adult Kids

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#39 Guilt-Free Advice from a Divorce Coach & How to Handle Your Adult Kids · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: How am I gonna do this?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't fair.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you doing this to me?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: So they can have a lot of emotions and reactions to this, but it's not your responsibility to protect them anymore.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're adults and they have to figure out how to handle this.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, it might be uncomfortable and it might be hard in the beginning, but they'll figure it out.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Shari Jonas, and this is Launch.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Jill Kaufman, a certified divorce coach, licensed therapist, mediator, author, and co-parenting expert.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: After going through her own high-conflict divorce, Jill made it her mission to help parents get through it with less stress, more confidence, and a greater sense of peace.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: For more than 20 years, she's been guiding families and teaching them how to co-parent successfully with their exes.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: She's a mom of three adult children and three adult stepchildren.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you can imagine the excellent advice Jill offers on today's episode as we talk about the impact divorce can have on adult children, what parents often get wrong, and how to handle this transition in a way that protects the children as you move forward.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get started.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Jill, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to dive into this conversation, as you know, because your work touches on one of the most overlooked but deeply personal experiences for parents who are going through divorce when their kids are already grown up.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is a conversation that's going to be really helpful and even comforting to parents who are going through this.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: But first, for our listener, I hope it's okay if you tell us a little bit more about you and what made you decide to become a co-parenting and divorce coach.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I raised my kids.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: I had three children, and I, you know, I was in banking originally, and then I was raising my kids initially and didn't work, but then I wanted to work and I started teaching parenting classes.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I then realized I wanted to be a therapist, so I went back to get my master's, and um, that took a long time, you know, part-time with kids.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: But then I went through my own very high conflict divorce.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that, you know, of course, changed my world.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it was horrible.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I made a ton of mistakes, and I didn't have the support that I needed when I went through it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it really made me really want to help people not experience what I experienced.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I decided to work really solely with people going through divorce and co-parenting.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: I only work with parents because that's my passion.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: I really want parents to have a more amicable divorce for their children.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the children are the innocent victims in all of this.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: And if it's a high conflict divorce, children get hurt.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really why I do what I do.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I have such a passion for spreading the word and helping as many people as possible.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: How old are the children when you're parenting when these parents are coming to you for advice?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: They are all different ages.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: I have people who have young children, I have people with grown children, you know, all different stages.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: No matter what stage you're in, the children get impacted.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so it's really important to get information and understanding of how to minimize the impact on children.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're seeing older people, older parents getting divorced later stage life, and like they call it gray divorce.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or sometimes I'm hearing the term now silver splitters.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: When you get that demographic that's coming to you, what are their biggest issues?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because let me preface this by saying that I know that one of the biggest struggles that parents of adult children have is communication.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think they think that if they just wait until they're a little bit older, it will be easier.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: But yet, it doesn't matter how old you are, I think, when your parents are getting divorced, it still like not shatters your world necessarily, especially if you saw it coming, but it's still rattling.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you see as some of the biggest issues that parents are coming to you with when their children are older?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because our audience is of the older demographic.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, so I can say from my own personal experience, I waited because I really didn't want my oldest to be as impacted by the divorce.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: I I thought if he was 18, he wouldn't have as much impact because he it's a lot of detail about why I waited, but I waited until he was 18.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: My younger ones were 16 and 12 when we went through divorce.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a mistake because, you know, waiting really is not, if you're in a a toxic or an unhealthy relationship, waiting until the children are grown is probably not going to be good for the children because they're in an environment that's not healthy.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I just wanted to comment that because a lot of people do wait until their children are older.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: But when when people are going through divorce as their children are adults or young adults, they're asking me, how is this going to impact my relationship with my children?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because when they're adults, there's no custody or parenting plan.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: The kids can decide who they want to see and when they want to see them.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: And if they're closer to one parent than the other, maybe they're just going to spend holidays and time with the one parent and not the other.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: If there was betrayal, if there was an affair, maybe they're angry at the parent who had that affair and they don't want to have a relationship with them.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: So there's lots of questions around relationships between older children and their parents as they go through this.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are their questions?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Will I be able to, like, what am I going to do for holidays?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: And are my kids going to see me on a regular basis?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Am I going to be involved in their lives?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: How are we going to work this out between the two of us?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, there's all different kinds of scenarios from very amicable where they can spend holidays together and they can do things together to, you know, very high conflict and contentious where they don't want to be in the same room with each other.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, what I tell people is that, you know, you have to make a shift.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: And if you've been married a long time and have older children, it's even harder to make a shift from being married, a married couple to being co-parents.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: And really the relationship, unless you are amicable and want to have a close relationship, you don't need to see each other that much.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: You don't need to have the type of relationship that you had when you were married.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: You just have to be respectful to each other and you have to be able to put your children first, even though they're adults.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: You can't expect them to take your side because that's not good for them.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: You can't talk to them negatively about the other parent.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: Children don't feel good when one of their parents says something negative about the other.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so you really have to find support so that you don't use your children as your your adult children as your support because it really isn't okay to do that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, people ask me, what do you say?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like if your child comes to you complaining about the other parent, well, you can you can listen and you can be supportive without bashing the other parent, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: You can say, you know what, this is something you really need to talk to them about.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is something that you should work through with your other parent.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't, if you get involved, that's triangulation and you don't want to do that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say triangulation.
• 8:22
  unknown: Yeah.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So let's explain what that is for the listener.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: So triangulation is when there's relationships between people, there's two people involved.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: And to be in a healthy relationship, you have to work through things with each other, just those two people, whether it's a couple, whether it's parent and child.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: If you have a third party who gets involved and is taking a side or is trying to tell one of the parties, you know, what to do or what the other party wants, that's triangulation because you're getting in the middle of a relationship between two people.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not healthy in families, it's not healthy in any kind of relationship.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: You really want the people involved, the two people involved to work through whatever it is that they're struggling with.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're there's a couple of issues here.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: The first is we're saying to parents, do not lean on or expect your adult child to support you.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: They are not your sounding board.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is I am not going to speak for you and go to your go to your father and say, you're you're doing this and you shouldn't be doing that, or or even asking my child to go tell your father that I need more support or I, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a there's a couple of issues we just touched on.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about guilt.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that, because that's a big one for parents.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: The guilt of, you know, I'm finally doing something for myself.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard for parents to actually get there because we've spent, let's say, 20 years just putting our children first, everybody first.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then we get to a point where our children are kind of doing their own thing.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so we go, we look at our partner and we say, I'm gonna be alone with you.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so all that, you know, the buffer of the children is going away.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're asking yourself, is are you the person I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you realize, you know what, I'm gonna be a little selfish and I'm gonna say, no, I would like to rather be alone than be in that situation, especially if the kids are doing their own thing.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: We say to ourselves, isn't it okay if I go ahead and just do this for me?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've spent my 20-something years for them.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you talk to them about it, because that's what we we suggest that you do.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: You communicate with your adult children, tell them what's going on, and then they react in a way that you didn't expect.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: You thought that they would be more supportive, but they aren't.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because I find that when a young adult or an adult child hears this news, there's a sort of a regression.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden they're becoming the the child again whose whose family is broken up and for some reason they still want everything to remain intact and perfect, even though they're doing they're living their own lives.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So then I'm sure that's when the guilt kicks in.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it would be okay, and now it's not okay.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's nothing more pleasurable for a mother or father to make this decision, and then the kids are supportive, but they're not going to be always be supportive.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about how to handle the guilt.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: So adult children are going to have their own feelings about this, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say they were not as close to one of the parents and now they have to directly communicate with that parent in order to see them, to spend time with them.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of times if you're in an intact family and one of the parents has a stronger connection with the children, it doesn't matter because you're all together and you're spending holidays together, you're spending time together.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a buffer there.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: But then when you are divorcing or divorced and you have these adult children, they're like, well, I don't want to see dad by myself.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like that doesn't sound like fun, or I don't want to spend, you know, Christmas with just me and mom, you know, like what, what are how am I gonna do this?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't fair.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you doing this to me?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: So they can have a lot of emotions and reactions to this, but it's not your responsibility to protect them anymore.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're adults and they have to figure out how to handle this.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, it might be uncomfortable and it might be hard in the beginning, but they'll figure it out.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And whether it's that they, you know, bring a friend to spend time with the parent that they're not as connected to or a significant other, or you know, they spend less time with them.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: That is their decision, and they have to figure out their relationship with each parent.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not easy, you know, a lot of times there are difficulties, but you shouldn't feel that you can protect them from that because that is not your role anymore.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Your role is to be their parent, but also to let them be an adult and let them figure out what kind of relationship they're gonna have with their other parent.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I hear this a lot from parents.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they'll say, Well, I'll say, when did you start noticing that your young adult started to struggle?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times they say the divorce.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Fair enough.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a justification for having a you know, going through a terrible time.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's very traumatic for some young adults to go through that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't, especially if they didn't see it coming.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: But at what point, because I remember asking this to a parent, how long ago was the divorce?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer would be like five years ago.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing with COVID, by the way.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: People will say something happened in COVID, and I'm like, but it's five years ago.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we hold on to the things that, you know, are we are called are excuses.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: We hold on to the excuses.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to say that when when a young adult goes through a divorce with their with where they witness a divorce, that it's a terrible, it's a viable excuse.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But at what point take me a long time to get to here, to the question, but at what point do you suggest that that young adult goes to therapy, that it's no longer a a reason to be stuck?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, why not go to therapy right away?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you're upset about your parents getting divorced, therapy is a very good option.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Why wait?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, why wait till it's a a year or two?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like this is something that therapists know how to do to handle and to help you handle.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, so I would say go to therapy right away if there's any kind of sign that it's affecting a child in a significant way.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like preventative therapy.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not preventative therapy, but it's preventative instead of saying, you know, don't wait until the problem becomes so bad that it's debilitating for you.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, bring your kids to therapy right from the starting point.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you can even do family therapy with adult children.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: I've done that before.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've worked with families who have adult children, and you can do family therapy with the two parents and the child who's an adult.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not saying everybody needs this.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it's only for people who who do need this if they're having uh major issues with the family, but it is possible they could go to individual therapy, they could go to therapy with one parent, or they can go to therapy with both parents.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: All of those things can help.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Even a support group.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if there are support groups for children of divorced parents or going through divorce, but I think it would be a wonderful idea.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's support groups for young children.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know about adult children.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what's your feeling about co-parenting?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: You've first of all backtracked.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: You call yourself a co-parenting expert.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Did you come up with that on your own?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Did you did you study that?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me how you came to So I've been trained in parenting and I've been trained, you know, as a therapist.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: So like there is no, I I don't have a certification as a co-parenting expert, but that is one of my areas of expertise.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's so important for people to know how to co-parent.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's no regulation saying if you get divorced, you have to go to co-parenting, you know, counseling.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: But I think a lot of people need that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you see the difference when there's a a breakup and the co-parenting is not functioning well versus when actually they do get along.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: You see there, there's a it's night and day.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's night and day.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: If you have people who are amicable, reasonable people who are kind to each other, respectful to each other, kids to are better, whether they're adults or children, kids turn out better.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: They've done so many studies on this.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not the divorce that affects children as much as the relationship between the parents.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it co-parenting is really, really important.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't mean you have to be best friends.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: You don't even have to spend a lot of time with your co-parent.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: You just have to be respectful, kind, and really treat them as if they were a colleague or a coworker, where you're not emotional and get into, you know, huge conflict and fights with them.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's just it doesn't help anything to have that kind of relationship.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Easier said than done.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it is easier said than done.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: But even high conflict people, you know, I work with tons of people who are reasonable people and they're soon to be exes or their exes are high conflict.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: There are ways you can communicate where you don't get caught up in the conflict and you lower the conflict.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of times they, you know, they'll exhibit the behaviors that they they exhibit outside of the session in the session.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I see what's going on, and they get emotional.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the the thing is, you know, it like you said, it's easier said than done to have a good, healthy relationship.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: But once you realize that you're just hurting yourself and your children, you realize that there's no reason to get emotional.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: People trigger things in other people, and when you're married, you learn how to trigger the other person.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: So when you're getting divorced or divorced, you're easily triggered by somebody who you were married to.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so what you when you realize that they can say whatever they want, they can say these things, but it doesn't have the same impact as when you are married.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: You can just go on and live your life and do whatever you want to do.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to come up with compromises on everything, you don't have to care what they think and really talk through everything with them.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: You really are individual people who are really like co-workers.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: When when you're working on things, you know, relating to your children, you need to work together.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, you can do whatever you want.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: What are the mistakes that you see parents are making?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so the big one is reacting to what the other parent says emotionally.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: So if you can respond and not react, or you just say, you know what, let's take a break from talking.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: We'll talk about this another time.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: That would be a better solution than emotionally reacting.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Another mistake is trying to get their children on their side, making it like, you know, you have to support me.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: Your father cheated on me, so you you, you know, you can't be nice to him or his, you know, affair partner or whatever.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, putting children in the middle like that, that's a huge mistake.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: I see it all the time.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you feel like they should be mad at their other parent, mother or father, if they had an affair.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: But the truth of the matter is they didn't do that to the child.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: They did that to the to the other parent, you know, and that's between the two of you.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: And usually, you know, sometimes somebody is not, you know, has an affair because it's a problem with them and not the marriage.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of times there's a problem in the marriage, and that's one of the reasons why an affair happens.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's a little bit more complicated than that.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, no matter what happens, anybody who's betrayed feels like people should take their side.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's the way you feel.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it's really not good for your child not to have a relationship with both parents, no matter what the situation, unless there's abuse or addiction or something like that.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you want to think of the children in those circumstances and you want to be supportive of their relationship with the other parent.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big mistake.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: When you're the adult child and you know that your parent, one of your parents, cheated on the other one, it's very difficult to remain neutral.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, you're supposed to have a relationship with this person who your respect has been diminished.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: You don't regard them in the same way.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: That vision of them being this perfect person, this perfect parent is now shattered because didn't they just okay, the marriage ended.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it end when they find out why it ended, that must be very difficult for a young adult.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not saying that you have to forgive someone right away for something like that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: You you have to work through it, you know, if that's something that You know, you find out about the child finds out about, and they're an adult and they're having problems with that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's understandable, you know, and it's not just going to go away.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: So the parent who had the affair needs to work on that relationship.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: They need to talk through that with the child.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: They need to really let them know that they're sorry and that they they realize that that wasn't the right thing to do in those circumstances.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: And eventually, hopefully, the child can forgive them.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: But if you get the parent who is betrayed really pulling the child to be angry with the other parent, that just layers more pressure on the child.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And you really have to let that go.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, believe me, I know this is hard to do because you feel betrayed and you feel like your children should be on your side.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, the children have different relationships with each parent, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: And they need both of those relationships if they're, you know, not abusive.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and you don't want to get in the middle of that relationship.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: You want to let them figure that relationship out with their other parent.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever get to the point where you can't actually help the young adult and the parent work through something and just it just a question of time or more therapy?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: No, time is a is sometimes the only thing that'll work.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes children are like, I don't want to, I don't want to talk to him, or I don't want to, I don't want to see her, you know, and and you kind of have to let them have that time.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I had times where my kids were mad at me and weren't speaking to me for several months, you know, and that's okay.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: You you just have to let the person heal and let them be able to be open to to working on the relationship.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: You can't force it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's talk about the situation where the parent comes to you because they thought that they had this really good arrangement.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say that the uh young adult would be going back and forth.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but at some point, as a young adult can decide this is not working for me.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do this anymore.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna want to stay with the other parent.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So now it it affects you you're offended, you're so hurt because you didn't think that they would choose them.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: How do you work through that with that parent who feels so hurt because they weren't chosen to be the one to live with?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: It is so difficult.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: This is a very difficult thing for a parent to you know deal with where their child doesn't want to see them or come to them for a certain period of time.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to give them that space.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to be patient with them.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: You can't force an adult child to do anything, right?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: So get yourself support, get yourself therapy, get you know, a support group.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: There's lots of support groups for people going through divorce, and really focus on yourself and focus on, you know, giving your child the time and the space.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: And eventually kids usually come around, you know.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: They they for whatever reason they're closer to one parent at some time and another parent at another time.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that like that happens in in tech families all the time, but it's not as obvious and it doesn't hurt as much because you you're seeing your child.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: This happens, and it's not about you as a parent.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean you're not a good parent.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean they don't love you.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: It just means that they need some time and space.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we as parents, all the hard things that we have to do as parents, we have to do that when they're adults too.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And we really have to be understanding and patient with them.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: What about issues of money?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people who have adult children are very worried that they're not going to have money, you know, to live their life.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And they're they're worried about finances as they're going through divorce or their divorce.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And what I can say is every person I've worked with and every person I know who's gone through divorce financially figures it out.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's not what you planned because you planned maybe to have retirement together and you know, you didn't have to split up the money, and you know, it wasn't, it's not going to be as much money as you thought you had.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: But there are creative ways that you can figure out how to make the money situation work.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really about having faith in yourself that, you know, you figured out everything else in your life, you can figure this one out.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: And whether that's taking a second job or finding creative ways to travel, that, you know, become a travel agent.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so you get, you know, deals on things or whatever it is that you kind of figure out for yourself, you can be creative and figure that out.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever see a situation where the young adult is becoming more of the parent than the parent is of themselves?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: We call that parentification.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Parentification, yep.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it happens with teenagers sometimes, but with adults, it happens a lot because people think, you know, they're an adult, they can handle it, but it's not good for them, no matter what age.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: They shouldn't be your parent until you're at the point where you're too old to take care of yourself.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Then yes, we all get to that with our parents, where we have to care for our parents, but not when you are able, you know, you're an able-bodied adult.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's not right for you to really count on them to take care of you emotionally.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: And they may even want to do it, you know, they may want to be there to talk to you about it, they may, you know, ask you questions about it, but really they should be living their own lives.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: They should be focused on themselves and and being happy in their own lives.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and we need to be able to take care of ourselves and get our supports other ways.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: And what is you can't talk to your kids about anything, you know.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, you can let them know that, you know, you're having a tough day, you're sad this day, or you know, you're you're struggling, but in general, you know, if you're doing that every day, that's not good.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: You need to get therapy or some other help.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you help a uh a parent who's comes to you and they really are feeling victimized?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost debilitating.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: They can't get past it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: How do you work with them?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: What do you suggest to them?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, victimized by the divorce or post-divorce, the divorce, yeah, because it divorces is hard, you know, like going through divorce is really, really difficult.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the systems that are in place don't make it any easier, especially when you hire attorneys and they're they're fighting about everything and they're telling you you have to fight about everything.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: What I would advise people to do is work with someone like me, who's a divorce coach, who really helps you not use the courts and attorneys and helps you lower the conflict and helps you in a more amicable way get through your divorce.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, even if you have a high conflict person that you're divorcing, 95% of divorces and are settled before going to trial.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: So you really want to realize that at some point you're probably going to settle with this person.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: Very few people end up going to trial.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, how can you do that with spending the least amount of money, the least amount of time, and the least amount of conflict?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the best way to do that is to know how to communicate with them in a way where you're not getting a lawyer writing an angry letter, you're not filing a ton of motions in court.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you're working together through mediation with a coach to help you come up with creative solutions so you can get through this, you know, without as much difficulty.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting statistic.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that, that that many divorces don't go to litigation.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: So are you saying that have you ever had a mar a divorce, a pending divorce, actually not go through and the opposite happens, where they get back together?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: I actually had a client who I was seeing for a counseling client who she was just so stressed out with everything that was going on with the divorce.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I said to her, you know, this is ridiculous.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: You have to settle.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: You, you, you have to figure this out between the two of you because it's hurting you physically, emotionally.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: So she told her attorney, and the attorney got very angry at her.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, This, this is not a settlement case.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: We are going to court.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is a this is a a court.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to court.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, You're my attorney.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: And my therapist said, I can't do that.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: We have to settle.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so he he backed down and she ended up, you know, talking to her soon-to-be ex.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: And they ended up getting back together.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not saying that happens a lot, but like, you know, they really didn't want to be divorced.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the lawyers were were taking the whole thing and and blowing it out of proportion.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so they've been together for a while now, and we'll see.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: They could end up staying together.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: It looks that way.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the topic of narcissism or narcissistic people is coming up a lot.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do when the one of the partners is a narcissist?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: How do you manage that situation?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a lot of the people I work with are uh divorcing high conflict or narcissistic or borderline personality, some kind of mental health issue person.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't really matter what the diagnosis is, it's just going to be a high conflict divorce.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: You have to know how to communicate so that you're not overreacting to things that they do, so that you strategically, I mean, and this is really important, you have to strategically plan for how you're going to negotiate your divorce because you really want to know what they want and what's important to them.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you can give that them that so that you can get what's important to you.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: And you can get caught up if you have attorneys who don't really understand this personality, that will trigger them and will really make things so much worse than they need to be.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: So you really have to have someone who knows how to deal with a high conflict person who will help manage your communication with them and your strategy in how you negotiate with them.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I always like to give advice, suggestions, actionable steps to parents, maybe before they get to that point where they have to seek counseling.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So earlier I asked you for some of the bigger issues that people and topics that parents are coming to you with.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: What advice do you have for parents who are going through this process?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, we're trying to make it as amicable as possible.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would be your suggestions to them?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: If any parent is listening to this right now, they're either going through it or they're thinking about going through it, and they've, it's it's not an easy decision, but they're ready to do it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: What can you suggest to make that process easier?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And before you answer, remember that it's not just about what they can do for themselves, but what they can do for their adult children to make that process easier.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what you can do for your adult children is not have a high conflict divorce, you know, a high conflict and for yourself, right?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: So you really want to make sure you don't try to get the, you know, shark of an attorney who's going to really pressure you to get everything you're entitled to and do things that won't be good for you emotionally or your future.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: You want to get as much information as possible prior to you making any moves because you have to, there's so much to learn, right?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much to know, and it's so overwhelming when you're going through this process that having someone like a coach walk you through this is really going to help you not make the mistakes that will hurt you and your children and your family.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that I would say is a big thing that I talk to people about is doing mediation versus working through attorneys.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of people hire an attorney and the other party hires an attorney and they're immediately adversaries.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas mediation is really a process where you're going to work through with a neutral party and you're going to work together to come up with solutions.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's much more collaborative.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of people talk about collaborative divorce, but that's really just attorneys working through their divorce.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: They can't take you to trial, so they're incentivized not to go to trial, but that's still it can get to be high conflict, even in collaborative divorce.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: So mediation is the technique that I use with my clients.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: I really, and sometimes the first couple of times you you attempt it, it doesn't work.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: But you have to give the high conflict, the narcissistic person, time to understand that they don't have a lot of choices.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like going to court is not the best for them because they're not going to look good in court.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: They think in the beginning they might, but over time they recognize that I don't want to spend all this money and I don't want to spend all this time.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: And they'll come to the table in mediation, even if they don't do it right away, give them time and they'll be more reasonable.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when should a parent start talking to their adult children that they're thinking about it?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is this something that they should be talking about before they actually start the process?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or should they bring them into it as they're going through the process?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like when is the right time to tell your children we are getting a divorce?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's both parents together telling their adult children when they're deciding.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: They they don't need to tell them before they've made this decision because maybe they won't end up making it.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then you're putting your child through something you don't need to.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I think once both parents are on the same page and they're going through divorce, you sit down with your adult children and you have a conversation that this is what we decided, and you know, kind of talk through it with them.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, it is different than uh having a child who's, I mean, maybe an adult child is still in the house, and so it will impact.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: I have clients right now who have children in their house who are adults.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: So they are impacted, you know, where they're gonna live and you know what they're gonna do.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, you may have to talk that through with them.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: You might say, you might not know what you're gonna do.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: We may have to sell the house and you may have to, you know, find your own place to live, or I'm gonna find something where you could live with me, you know, separately.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, it in most cases, if they're adult children and they're out of the house, there's less of that direct impact on their, you know, life.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a little easier conversation.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it, you know, we have lots of parents having adult kids in their houses now.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: So it could really impact them.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's always a silver lining.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to touch on that for parents who are, I, you know, again, we've talked about the guilt and and how to work through that.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and the most important thing is that, you know, your children are gonna, they have to grow up if if you've been coddling them and making sure that they never experience anything negative in their life.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And now all of a sudden you get to this point where you are making this huge decision, it's maybe the first time that a lot of parents are gonna have to go, okay, this is what's happening.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put, you know, you can go speak to somebody if you want, but we're going through with this.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: But there is always a silver lining.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's always something that comes out of this that is so beneficial.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe not to the children right away, but down the road, maybe a better relationship with one of the parents that wasn't that might not have ever happened if it was always just both of them in the house.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, they sometimes they go, I don't have a relationship with this parent, and now I'm forced to, but that's a good thing.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: But what other silver linings can you see happening or have you seen happening for parents going through this?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it's so such a silver lining is that, you know, if I my parents were married over 50 years, they had a terrible marriage, and it affected me.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's one of the reasons I got divorced, because I didn't know what a healthy relationship looked like.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I was, you know, may I made the decision to marry very quickly and I didn't think that through like I should have.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: When your children are their parents go through divorce, they see that staying in an unhealthy relationship is not the best thing for you to do.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: And they realize that that decision is a huge decision and they take their time making it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: And they, my kids are all much smarter.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: My two older children are have been with their partners for years and have not gotten engaged and are, you know, taking their time for it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, they're looking to you as a role model for them.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: And if you show them that it's it's not good to stay in an unhealthy relationship and that you have a right to be happy, they're going to pursue that too.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I've seen so many good things come out of that for my clients and for my children, where they really learn what a healthy relationship is and they they focus on that in their lives.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: So there's nothing better than that being a good role model for your children.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't think, you know, you people should feel guilty.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think they should feel confident that they're doing the right thing.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hope we didn't inspire divorce.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, no.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think people, you know, the average length of time people think about getting divorced is seven years.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: So nobody makes this decision quickly, you know.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: But they but if you do make this decision, you should feel good about it and feel like you know you're doing the right thing.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Jill, thank you for being here and for sharing your expertise with us.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I really believe that many parents will will appreciate your guidance.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's comforting.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, if they want to reach out to you, your contact will be in the show notes.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think talking with our adult children is never easy, but I think that what you've brought to the table today makes it so.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate having you here.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Sherry.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate being here.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood.
• 41:59
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• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Leaving a five-star review helps us reach more parents who are dealing with the same issues.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's something you want to ask me, I invite you to join Launch Advice, my weekly publication where I answer one question from parents just like you.
• 42:19
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• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just click Launch Advice in the show notes and don't forget to email me your confidential questions.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to you soon.