Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Pete Lambert & Toby Hadoke to celebrate Revelation of the Daleks (full commentary)

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Talks to Pete Lambert & Toby Hadoke to celebrate Revelation of the Daleks (full commentary) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:36
  Welcome back to a hamster with a blump pen Knife.
• 0:40
  I'm about to say the Doctor Who Commentary podcast, but I can't
• 0:43
  say that when someone on this call also has a commentary
• 0:45
  podcast. So I shall say, hey, Doctor Who
• 0:48
  Commissary podcast, I'm here today.
• 0:51
  We have two magnificent gentlemen, Mr. Pete Lambert and
• 0:54
  Mr. Toby Haydog. Now, Pete, Anita, hold you to
• 0:59
  task immediately before we talk about anything.
• 1:01
  Yes, a message in saying, do you know what, Joe?
• 1:04
  I really want to talk about Revelation of the Daleks.
• 1:07
  And to make this an even more specific request, I want to talk
• 1:10
  about it with Toby Haido. Explain yourself, Sir.
• 1:14
  Well. Who better to talk with such a
• 1:17
  fantastic story about? This is one of my favourite
• 1:19
  stories of all time. It was that first year that I
• 1:21
  had a video recorder and a paper round, which is an essential
• 1:24
  combination in order to be able to afford to buy video cassettes
• 1:27
  that you can keep and take break the tabs off.
• 1:29
  And then conveniently had 18 months with no new Doctor Who to
• 1:32
  just keep watching these stories over and over.
• 1:34
  So they're really ingrained in me as being the first series of
• 1:37
  Doctor Who that I owned literally.
• 1:41
  And I just, this is an amazing story.
• 1:42
  It's dark, it's exceptional, it's odd, it's an outlier, and I
• 1:47
  love it for that. Well, that's 1/2 of my question.
• 1:49
  What about the other half? Well, it's lovely to me.
• 1:53
  You tell me properly. We've met in bars, but I'm
• 1:55
  meeting you on a podcast for the first time, which is entirely
• 1:57
  more more formal. Well, hello, Pete, and I like
• 2:01
  what you do online. So it was all it was.
• 2:03
  I was happy to be asked, flattered to be asked.
• 2:06
  And it's nice to consort with you in cyberspace, as we are
• 2:09
  doing. Well, and I was saying to you
• 2:11
  earlier that like it was you know, you probably get sick of
• 2:13
  hearing about but but the moth set may ate my scarf thing
• 2:18
  really broke through for me as as the first time I had people
• 2:21
  and I didn't know any other Doctor Who fans and people I
• 2:23
  like my sister would listen listen to it on Radio 4 and and
• 2:26
  understood what what it was all about with with with that.
• 2:31
  So it was a real real work of genius.
• 2:34
  Oh bless you. And you seem to have done it
• 2:35
  right since then, isn't? It, well, yes, it's it's, it's
• 2:38
  opened a few doors, which is which I hadn't imagined and in
• 2:42
  fact was a reason not not to do it.
• 2:44
  I thought, I don't want to be, I don't want to be the Doctor Who
• 2:47
  guy. How's that working out
• 2:52
  everywhere as well as being as well as?
• 2:54
  Catastrophic decision, wasn't it?
• 2:56
  As well as being the Doctor Who guy, that's what it.
• 2:58
  Is how have you spent your evenings this week?
• 3:01
  You have Doctor Who? Are you afraid so?
• 3:04
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:06
  Well, look, Toby, can I? I don't have a single.
• 3:09
  You know, I've listened to many, many, many of your happy times
• 3:11
  and places. You haven't covered revelation
• 3:14
  of the dialects yet. And I think sort of you eke out
• 3:18
  your colleagues because there's not many of them that's very
• 3:20
  exciting when they turn up. So will you please just reveal
• 3:24
  where you stand with this story? I love Revelation of the
• 3:28
  dialects. It's my favorite Colin.
• 3:31
  But equally, I understand people who don't like it and it is for
• 3:38
  me something of a guilty pleasure because I think a lot
• 3:42
  of the things I like about it are sort of at the expense of
• 3:45
  what Doctor Who's supposed to be doing.
• 3:48
  But the beauty of Doctor Who is it's a really weird thing.
• 3:51
  A lot of my favorite Doctor Who stories are atypical Doctor Who
• 3:55
  stories. I'm also boringly, you know, I
• 3:58
  love the classics, I love caves. I love the Genesis, you know,
• 4:02
  all of that. So I'm not, I'm not, you know,
• 4:04
  fashionably, au contraire, but I, you know, that there's the
• 4:12
  lots of what I like about Revelation, I have to say.
• 4:15
  And we were talking about ambassadors last night.
• 4:18
  And, and I, I have a similar feeling about it is, and, and
• 4:22
  season 7 as a whole actually is if all of Doctor Who was like
• 4:25
  that, I probably wouldn't like, I'd probably, but, but because
• 4:28
  of what Doctor, how Doctor Who exists is this weird mosaic of
• 4:32
  lots of different tones and styles.
• 4:35
  When there's, when there's one story that's like that, it's you
• 4:37
  sort of go, I love this, but you wouldn't.
• 4:39
  Well, it's a bit like when Saywood decided to try and do
• 4:43
  earth shock over and over again. You sort of go, there's a bit of
• 4:46
  a law of diminishing returns. So earth shock I I love more
• 4:49
  than perhaps it's imitate, although I don't mind it, but,
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  but you, you know what I mean. So, so there's, there's, there's
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  lots to love about revelation of the Daleks, but I completely
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  understand Doctor Who fans who love Doctor Who for being this
• 5:02
  sort of whimsical, fun, cheery rompy program who might find
• 5:10
  the, the cynicism and the violence and the sort of dark
• 5:14
  humor a little bit, a little bit non Doctor Who.
• 5:18
  He for their tastes. And I, I, I, you know, I
• 5:21
  wouldn't throw out that out of court were, were they to present
• 5:24
  it as evidence. But I love it.
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  And you joke. I, I've always thought this is
• 5:32
  glorious back in the day when I first, in fact, this is a this
• 5:35
  is weirdly is a story that I introduced my ex-husband to
• 5:39
  Doctor Who through he said, I want to, I watch a Dalek story.
• 5:43
  So I put on revelation and he went, that was great.
• 5:45
  So I put on resurrection. He loved that remembrance.
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  And then he kind of stopped after that, but vicariously
• 5:51
  learned a lot about Doctor Who in 16 years, including being
• 5:55
  able to tell me every single companion in order.
• 5:57
  Anyway, that's a side note. I love it.
• 6:00
  But I do have a theory about this because I do think
• 6:03
  Revelation is a bit of an outlier when you compare it to
• 6:07
  the other Eric Saywood scripts. I think the dialogue is sharper
• 6:11
  and funnier and it's it's blackly comic in a way that I
• 6:16
  don't think his other scripts land.
• 6:18
  How close was Eric Saywood and Robert Holmes at this point?
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  Is there a possibility that this script?
• 6:26
  For well, yeah or he's certainly being a good influence on him.
• 6:29
  Any or or well, or an influence and yeah, some people might not
• 6:32
  say a good influence, but I would say a good influence on
• 6:34
  him. I'm.
• 6:35
  Not saying he gave it a pass, but I don't know.
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  I just sent sensed that that Robert Holmes dark whimsy in
• 6:42
  this that I don't get in any of Sailor's other scripts.
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  I mean, it's also, it is also, there's the thing of it being
• 6:48
  pretty very closely modelled on the tone of that, of this Evelyn
• 6:52
  Ward book, The Loved Ones, which I listened to the radio
• 6:55
  adaptation of last night for the first time.
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  There's a radio adaptation of it done in about 1990 I think on
• 7:01
  Radio Four, I think it's 1990. And and that has this dark,
• 7:07
  sharp dialogue, dark tone, sharp dialogue feel to it that I
• 7:12
  haven't read the book itself. Remiss of remiss of me, but but
• 7:16
  I get the impression that that's probably helping Eric up his
• 7:19
  game this week. And also he wrote it while he
• 7:21
  was on holiday, didn't he, between contracts.
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  So maybe he was just he had more time than usual.
• 7:26
  I've never read that. Are there tons of parallels for
• 7:30
  this? Yes, yes.
• 7:33
  And I mean, it's about a, a mortician.
• 7:37
  Was that the right word to use? Yeah.
• 7:39
  And, but, and it's all, it's about the commercialisation of
• 7:42
  death. And, and there's, there's
• 7:43
  scenes, there's a couple, just one or two scenes that are
• 7:45
  almost exactly the same. And there's the, the main
• 7:50
  character is called Mr. Joy Boy, who is, who is Mr. Jeremel
• 7:55
  basically. Well, he's one of the central
• 7:57
  characters. And, and there's a there's a,
• 8:00
  there's a the equivalent of Tasam Beaker is called
• 8:02
  Thanotegonos can't say it right, But she but in but in the book,
• 8:08
  but in the original, she's glamorous and everyone's in love
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  with her. So that's that's, that's been
• 8:12
  somewhat changed. And I'm fairly certain as we go
• 8:17
  through this thing that we are going to be pointing at the
• 8:19
  screen and going, Oh my God, look at that.
• 8:21
  Because this is a beautiful looking Doctor Who story.
• 8:25
  Before we press play, can I just ask you both, you know, do you
• 8:29
  get down on your knees in front of Graham Harper?
• 8:32
  How do you find this direction, Toby?
• 8:34
  Yeah, Graham. I mean Graham Harper is the best
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  director of classic who I think certainly should be spoken of in
• 8:42
  the same breath as the other stand out directors of Camfield,
• 8:50
  Ferguson, Martinez, Grimwade. I mean, but but but I think
• 8:56
  Harper absolutely nails how to make a show that at at this time
• 9:02
  is looking very light. ENT makes it look absolutely
• 9:07
  extraordinary. And this is a guy who's doing
• 9:10
  things in multi camera that none of his peers on the show are
• 9:13
  doing. And you know, if if I'd been
• 9:16
  producer, I would have tried to get him to direct the entire
• 9:20
  series. And I don't think he'd have been
• 9:23
  a verse to it because he was doing, you know, other bits and
• 9:24
  bobs, not not all of which is, you know, as exciting and
• 9:27
  challenging as this. So I, I think he's, he's, if
• 9:30
  this had been directed by somebody else, I don't think it
• 9:33
  would be the same show. There's a, there's a, yeah,
• 9:36
  there's a, there's a couple of scenes that are ambitious and
• 9:38
  don't quite work. But as, as on, on the whole,
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  his, his a gift for atmosphere and for pace and for, but he's
• 9:47
  not just, you know, all bells and whistles of fight scenes and
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  stuff. He's, you know, he's, he's great
• 9:52
  with his actors and his characters, but, but just just
• 9:55
  tonally and in terms of pace and, and, and in, in terms of
• 9:58
  trying to make it atmospheric with what he gets Roger Lim to
• 10:01
  do with the music as well and how he gets it lit.
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  It's head and shoulders above what what anybody else is doing,
• 10:07
  really. It is staggering to come from
• 10:10
  Time Lash to Revelation of the Darlings.
• 10:12
  And I'm not saying Pellet Roberts was out of his depth,
• 10:15
  but there is a discernible difference between the two
• 10:18
  stories. Yeah, yeah.
• 10:20
  And it's an end of the series. And, and this is this feels like
• 10:22
  a series finale in a way that we did not get in the first half of
• 10:25
  the 80s and and then second-half of the 80s series was too short
• 10:28
  to have to feel like finale. But this, this isn't the we've
• 10:31
  run out of money. Can we just make it to the end
• 10:33
  of the season without running out of episodes?
• 10:35
  This is this is a crescendo to the series.
• 10:39
  Well look boys, should we press play and see what the story's
• 10:42
  got to offer? I will count as in then in 54321
• 10:50
  and off we go into imminent cancellation.
• 10:56
  Oh yeah, hiatus. Sorry.
• 10:58
  Peter Hal, for me that this is the best thing.
• 11:00
  It's the best thing. It's it's not but.
• 11:04
  I like. It am I the only person that
• 11:06
  watch this go out live? No, no, well, now this, this,
• 11:10
  this is one of those ones that for me, I, I, I was having it
• 11:13
  taped. I was on holiday and a friend
• 11:14
  taped it and missed the first minute and 1/2.
• 11:17
  So for me for a year for like 10 years.
• 11:20
  This story began for me with with the with the burger
• 11:23
  exploding in under the under the water.
• 11:26
  I didn't know it has this. Useful opening shots and the
• 11:29
  TARDIS on the snow. Possibly the best TARDIS.
• 11:32
  Materialisation. I mean, this is this is a last
• 11:34
  ever location shoot on film in the UK, isn't it?
• 11:36
  And wow. And and just the the addition of
• 11:39
  snow. The the the addition of snow,
• 11:41
  but the the snow gives it a special atmosphere.
• 11:43
  And but, but just the fact that Harper makes the TARDIS landing
• 11:47
  just seem atmospheric and creepy, as you know, other
• 11:51
  directors would have just plonked a camera and said, all
• 11:53
  right, I've come out and stand next to each other in chat.
• 11:56
  Yeah, and the angle that it's at the TARDIS is at a slightly
• 11:58
  jaunty angle. It just all makes it look
• 12:01
  organic. Yeah.
• 12:03
  You get the impression is the other side of that river getting
• 12:05
  the perfect shot. You know the light where it is,
• 12:09
  the angle. It is gorgeous.
• 12:12
  And here comes Nicola Bryan. With a nut roast roll I had
• 12:18
  recently become I'm a I've been a vegetarian since I was 11, so
• 12:22
  I think I've become a vegetarian at around this time So the idea
• 12:27
  that a nut roast roll might make you explode if you live
• 12:30
  underwater is a bizarre I. Think this might, and this might
• 12:33
  be a nod to the book the the loved ones as well, because in
• 12:35
  that there's there's A at one point somebody thinks that
• 12:38
  they've been poisoned by a a nut roast.
• 12:41
  Oh, really? Yes, but it turns out they
• 12:43
  haven't. They've committed suicide
• 12:44
  instead. It's a very dark comedy.
• 12:46
  Because, because of course it's a continuation of the two
• 12:49
  doctors where they've decided, the doctors decided to be
• 12:52
  vegetarian in an annoying way. Barry's having second thoughts
• 12:57
  first. Yeah.
• 12:58
  Oh, he looks so good in blue. He looks gorgeous.
• 13:01
  And they breath the way you can see their breath.
• 13:03
  I mean you can see the. You know how they say.
• 13:04
  The blood drain from their spaces.
• 13:06
  Trial that they tried to soften the dialogue that we're given
• 13:10
  and the relationship. What do you think?
• 13:11
  It starts here in this story. There's a few abrasive moments,
• 13:15
  but I feel like there is a difference here.
• 13:17
  It's more brother and sister, isn't it, than people who hate
• 13:20
  each other properly. Like it's sometimes, like, I
• 13:22
  think a lot of that suffers from the padding and time lash where
• 13:25
  they just padded it with a bit of the music.
• 13:28
  When, when should we talk about the music?
• 13:30
  Can we do that now? Off we go.
• 13:31
  Yeah. Yeah, because, Because this is
• 13:33
  Roger Lim, isn't it? Yes, Yeah, who who has the
• 13:36
  honour of being my favorite and my least favorite composer of
• 13:38
  the early 80s. I don't know how he does it, but
• 13:40
  Arc of Infinity I can't stand. But this is just like a musical
• 13:43
  to me. It's the I like the music, but
• 13:46
  also it's not just that it's not pleasant to listen to or just
• 13:50
  good to listen to it. It's so feeding off the lines
• 13:54
  and. Well, I, I, I think Harper does
• 13:57
  what? Because I, you know, I think I
• 13:59
  remember getting the arc of Infinity music on Doctor Who,
• 14:02
  the music, the the vinyl and going what is this?
• 14:05
  And. Even then, when it's only two or
• 14:07
  three minutes of Ergon threat, it's not that bad, but when it's
• 14:09
  just repeated? But but what?
• 14:12
  What Harper does is, is I think he 'cause I think he, he tried
• 14:17
  to do a different score for Andrazani and Harper went strip
• 14:20
  it down, strip it down. And so a lot of it is sort of
• 14:23
  ambient sound rather than music and, and, and sort of creeping
• 14:26
  menace and it and it and it really works as a as an under
• 14:29
  score rather than as, you know, sort of, you know, bombast to
• 14:34
  drown out people's clumping footsteps or whatever.
• 14:38
  And it and it and it really does work.
• 14:40
  Was he the only director talking to the musician, saying I want
• 14:43
  this, I want this to rise here, I want this instrument here?
• 14:46
  Like, he was quite specific, wasn't he?
• 14:49
  Yeah, he absolutely knew what he wanted.
• 14:51
  And and it wasn't just, you know, a track that just gets
• 14:54
  Bang, Bang banged over the the the action.
• 14:57
  And it's because everything needs to breathe a little bit
• 15:00
  more. You know, he's everything is
• 15:02
  deliberately placed here, even even what he's doing here, you
• 15:05
  know, in the way that he's shooting everybody and.
• 15:08
  Oh God. Clive is just monstrous and
• 15:12
  wonderful, isn't he? Yeah.
• 15:14
  It's the sort of script and actor just loves landing on the
• 15:17
  mat well. I love the shape of this set.
• 15:20
  There isn't another set that's this shape.
• 15:22
  It's sort of long and and rising up at the back to the plant it
• 15:25
  feels. Huge doesn't it gives us great
• 15:27
  shots like this which, you know, has them in the foreground and.
• 15:30
  And she's this little bully. Yeah.
• 15:32
  Is this the bit or is it a bit later where there is the scene
• 15:34
  of the wonderful, just amazing Jenny Thomason?
• 15:40
  I just think she so I looked I I was surprised when I learned
• 15:44
  that other people hated her when I met Doctor Who fans, because I
• 15:46
  thought that was exactly what she was meant to be.
• 15:49
  And she's meant to be wretched and gaunless and and and but
• 15:53
  also with a nasty streak too. So you don't.
• 15:55
  You would start feeling sorry for her, but then she's a little
• 15:57
  bully herself. Well, I think I think that's the
• 16:00
  thing though, because the bits where she loses her temper don't
• 16:02
  look very convincing. But the whole fact is when
• 16:05
  people who are like that do lose their temper, it doesn't look
• 16:09
  convincing. And I don't know whether that's
• 16:13
  deliberate on Jenny Thomason's part.
• 16:14
  I suspect it wasn't. But I think it's deliberate on
• 16:16
  Graham Harper's part that he's cast somebody that that perhaps
• 16:20
  does does look, you know, is isn't as convincing a bully as
• 16:24
  perhaps she would like to be. But that doesn't that doesn't
• 16:27
  mean her nastiness is any less sincere.
• 16:29
  You know, not everyone can convincingly carry off being
• 16:32
  being threatening and spiteful. But but because we're on the
• 16:37
  always on the lookout for bad acting, as it were, we that
• 16:40
  that's an easy trap for us to fall into if we're being
• 16:43
  ungenerous. But I think if you accept it on
• 16:45
  its own terms within the story that it is in, what she does is
• 16:50
  is absolutely bang on. Grief is that it's Olivier, I
• 16:54
  said. The Highlands.
• 16:55
  Olivier at. Least it's not in blackface,
• 16:59
  it's a fellow. Tail underneath the makeup.
• 17:01
  We got a lovely at the beginning of this, this whole sequence,
• 17:03
  it's talk about like the 8 running the gamut.
• 17:05
  The the the doctor and Perry are so nice and affectionate at the
• 17:09
  start of it with their, you know, with him teasing her about
• 17:11
  whether the plant's dangerous or not.
• 17:15
  What I love in a minute is, is the scene after this is where
• 17:18
  he's got the mutant in his arms and he takes hold of his hand.
• 17:22
  You know, he's not he doesn't recoil away from him.
• 17:25
  He's really tender this sequence now.
• 17:28
  I mean, I just love the snow like you very.
• 17:30
  Do you ever see real snow in Doctor Who?
• 17:33
  I think this might be the only. Time thoughts of axos, but but
• 17:36
  not not not often this is this is beautifully direct.
• 17:39
  I think it's make up as well as fantastic the fact.
• 17:42
  That you. You can't see his teeth well, or
• 17:45
  he's taking his pulse teeth out, I think.
• 17:47
  Dorka. Keith Ken Barker, he was a
• 17:52
  stuntman, but he gives a good performance too.
• 17:54
  He's a stuntman who's a who's a decent actor.
• 17:57
  And this. This makes a virtue of the snow
• 18:00
  don't. You love the fact that Colin's
• 18:01
  willing to get dirty as well, like he's just rolling a little
• 18:08
  rubber, that stick, but. Never bounces.
• 18:15
  It's just this world that they're in is so dangerous.
• 18:20
  And here's Alexi Sale. Here's a yeah.
• 18:23
  Who I think is great in this. They didn't.
• 18:26
  They have the this have have one of the longest potential casting
• 18:28
  lists ever drawn up for a character or something.
• 18:30
  It's or. It sounds like it from what I've
• 18:32
  heard. Yeah, well, they were and, and
• 18:33
  well, it's the beauty of the parties.
• 18:35
  You can sort of go in any direction.
• 18:37
  And I know that I think they thought of Roger Daltrey was
• 18:39
  one, you know, you, Alan Freeman.
• 18:41
  You could go for an actual DJ, an actual rock star in this, an
• 18:45
  alternative comedian who's, you know, part of this sort of
• 18:48
  zeitgeist, which I think is a really good move.
• 18:51
  And I think he does a great job with it, you know, and that
• 18:54
  these sorts of shots are fantastic.
• 18:57
  He shoots the Dalek so well and he makes a virtue of this.
• 19:00
  Having Davros as the head in the box is is, you know, really
• 19:03
  works. I.
• 19:04
  Remember when I first sorry, I wasn't sure if those lights that
• 19:06
  we can see the neon reflecting were actually in the thing with
• 19:09
  him or whether they were, but actually they're reflections.
• 19:12
  But what do you think? That's the?
• 19:14
  Choice to not make the reveal of the Dalek a moment, right?
• 19:17
  It's just him going into a room. Isn't it?
• 19:19
  Yeah. But yeah, I mean, this is a this
• 19:21
  isn't, this is a Davro story, not a Dalek story, isn't it?
• 19:23
  Ultimately, it's not about some Daleks who've decided to do
• 19:27
  something. Daleks magnificently in this.
• 19:31
  I think he is the master of the low angle shot of a Dalek.
• 19:36
  This I like. I like these two.
• 19:38
  I remember really rooting for them when I was a kid.
• 19:40
  I didn't get the fact that he was an alcoholic.
• 19:43
  I think that's quite grown up. Strong stuff for for Doctor Who,
• 19:50
  but and he's really good actually, because some of his
• 19:52
  dialogue I think could sound naff in the wrong hands.
• 19:55
  This this sequence is slightly clumsy.
• 19:57
  She she's Oh no, it's not as bad as I remember.
• 19:59
  No, there's one a bit later on where there's a a laser beam.
• 20:02
  Anyway, it doesn't matter. But I I really like these two
• 20:05
  characters. It was I found myself sort of
• 20:07
  rooting for the for the young sexy ones and I I quite fancied
• 20:10
  Natasha. I saw her.
• 20:12
  Have you ever interviewed her? I I have.
• 20:16
  She was at a convention I was at but I think she could have got a
• 20:18
  cold but I think she froze a bit.
• 20:19
  She climbed up and only gave one word.
• 20:20
  Do. You know what?
• 20:21
  Convention, and she was, she was very unpleasant to somebody who
• 20:26
  I know at that convention. Oh, no, yeah, I see that.
• 20:30
  It wasn't a great experience. Actually, it was just why you're
• 20:32
  asking that. Yeah, but.
• 20:35
  It's funny, I found her quite characterful and this happens
• 20:39
  sometimes off mic, as it were, but then as soon as the mic was
• 20:43
  turned on and this I did it. I've done a commentary with her
• 20:45
  actually for Phantom films and and she clammed up when the when
• 20:50
  the mic went on. So which is really weird as a
• 20:52
  performer that she was actually more sort of garrulous as in and
• 20:56
  convivial and all sorts of, you know, she you got more from her
• 21:00
  between takes and then once once there was a need to perform, she
• 21:05
  suddenly clammed up a bit. Graham Harper.
• 21:07
  Was also at I had that interview but he was late and the second
• 21:11
  he walked in the whole audience breathed a sight.
• 21:13
  He was like a celebrity walking in.
• 21:16
  We love. Lots of lovely energy came in.
• 21:19
  He's such a nice man. He, he is.
• 21:21
  He's wonderful, isn't? He props to Ken Barker.
• 21:24
  I think he does a really good performance and I think I think
• 21:26
  Colin's great in that scene. And how sad he looks for Perry's
• 21:30
  crying. And yeah, and it's usually
• 21:32
  someone crying, isn't it in in classic who?
• 21:34
  And it doesn't feel at all over overblown.
• 21:39
  I know, and I think I think what Colin, Colin is always really
• 21:41
  good at doing the sort of import of an individual death.
• 21:45
  So seeing as he's quite an abrasive Dr. and all of that, he
• 21:48
  he he's a generous enough actor that he gives other actors their
• 21:53
  sort of moment. He, he doesn't, you know, Tom
• 21:55
  can be quite dismissive and you go, oh, come on, mate, you know,
• 21:59
  and that, and I think that's slightly Tom as an actor as
• 22:01
  well. Whereas whereas Colin, I think
• 22:03
  is a generous enough actor to go, I'll, I'll let this person's
• 22:06
  character make a bit of an impact.
• 22:08
  This bit doesn't quite work. It's a brave stab, this and I
• 22:11
  think it's been stabilised slightly for the, for the, you
• 22:14
  know, for the remastering because I seem to call it a bit.
• 22:19
  The the, the scrolling screen, yeah, as you, as it scrolls down
• 22:21
  the different floors, because I, yeah, I, I thought it was
• 22:24
  deliberately teasing us that like, oh, it's meant to making
• 22:27
  you're meant to think your T VS gone wrong and then you're meant
• 22:29
  to realise it's actually scrolling.
• 22:30
  Yeah. Well, that's a very generous
• 22:32
  that. Honestly, that's how how old
• 22:35
  was. I can you watch everything I
• 22:37
  make with such generosity? I would like that.
• 22:40
  Can I just say I want? Lexi sales entire wardrobe for
• 22:43
  this story. OK, he has many a costume.
• 22:46
  Change. And this is I was thinking
• 22:48
  because I think particularly if you'd asked me when I was
• 22:50
  between the ages of 11 and 14, that this is the complete
• 22:53
  antithesis of the the seasons that followed.
• 22:55
  Like when you get to season 24, you're somewhere completely
• 22:57
  different with Doctor Who, but Alexi sales role and this is not
• 23:00
  that different from Ken Dodd's indulge from the bannerman.
• 23:03
  He's doing his bit is is rather than it it it's it is a guest
• 23:08
  turn sort of thing. It feels like rather very, very
• 23:12
  deliberately and it and it works really well.
• 23:13
  But both both occasions different ways.
• 23:15
  Feel like the performance really kicks in in 2 isn't it?
• 23:18
  When he's suddenly very shy and very sweet.
• 23:21
  Intruders. Although maybe Alexis always
• 23:23
  like that, I don't know. I mean, it's a sign of the
• 23:26
  quality of this cast that you've got Trevor Cooper playing, you
• 23:31
  know, a relatively sort of smaller part than than or or
• 23:36
  less interested about the other. And I think, I think Tarkas and
• 23:38
  Lilt are great. I think they do a fantastic job,
• 23:40
  far better than we should expect them to do really.
• 23:44
  And and compare it to some other sort of bases under siege that
• 23:48
  we've had not pointing at. Well, I will point at Warriors
• 23:51
  of the Deep, which is fun in its own way, which has its merits,
• 23:53
  but there's no characters of this.
• 23:56
  No. Aisle or tone in in stories, and
• 23:58
  I'm just using that an example that that there's plenty of all
• 24:01
  sorts of space series that that would do the same sort of thing
• 24:04
  and you get just people who are just in control of their console
• 24:07
  or whatever. But everyone in this is a
• 24:09
  character, a larger than life character.
• 24:11
  I also think that what this has that perhaps say would doesn't
• 24:14
  bring to his other stories because he likes his gangsters
• 24:16
  and he likes his tough talking is there's a kind of level of
• 24:20
  camp to this. And I and I'm not one to say
• 24:24
  that Doctor Who's camp all the time.
• 24:25
  I don't perhaps I don't read camp or I'm not not predisposed
• 24:28
  to it to someone like Joe might be but but I mean but but you
• 24:32
  know, there's there is a sort of subtext that that Tarkas and Lil
• 24:35
  to you know, the house. Yeah.
• 24:39
  I mean I. Mean the camp here is all well
• 24:41
  at a bronze and yeah. How's the thing?
• 24:43
  And yet, and she and him are. They're so in love with each
• 24:46
  other. And yet they're the two gayest
• 24:48
  characters, potentially. Wait a week.
• 24:50
  But but that that takes the edge off that that, you know, that
• 24:54
  resurrection and attack where everyone's a sort of tough guy
• 24:58
  bit bristling a bit, you know, it's all it's all a bit macho.
• 25:03
  This to make it this sort of slightly grotesque black comedy
• 25:07
  has that level of camp that I think dilutes the testosterone a
• 25:11
  little bit and makes it a bit more interesting and a bit more
• 25:14
  a bit more fun. And it makes the sort of dark
• 25:16
  humor and satire rather richer. I love having a Dalek checking,
• 25:21
  sorry. Have you boys read the
• 25:23
  Revelation of the Daleks novelization?
• 25:26
  Oh God, yes. Well, I've listened to, well,
• 25:28
  I've listened to Toby Terry Molloy's reading of it.
• 25:31
  And he does. He does a fairly good game.
• 25:33
  Isn't he? I'll put some life into it, I.
• 25:35
  Just wanted to say that he adds a little back story for Sarkis
• 25:38
  and Lille, where they were met in the military, where they were
• 25:41
  known for doing their famous Laurel and Hardy sketches for
• 25:44
  the troops. You see that?
• 25:48
  How to ruin a good a nice little gag.
• 25:52
  Because I didn't don't read it then.
• 25:54
  That's something I did not pick up when I was a kid.
• 25:56
  That that that's what was when the music played.
• 25:58
  The the the hint at the Laurel and Hardy music went over my
• 26:00
  head until I somebody told me about it on a production note or
• 26:03
  something. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's, it's
• 26:05
  nice that it's there and it's just, it's allowed to sort of
• 26:08
  speak for itself. But that and I've, I've, yeah,
• 26:10
  the music's a nice little touch. Everyone sort of noticed what's
• 26:13
  going on without saying anything.
• 26:15
  The book is basically that, him pointing out the punchline.
• 26:19
  Of every joke. You know, I just see Eleanor
• 26:21
  Bronze gazing down there. We just had a glimpse of her.
• 26:23
  We just had a little preview of her.
• 26:24
  Exquisite Self doesn't. She.
• 26:26
  Me and my flatmate, who was also a Doctor Who fan, once had a
• 26:29
  long in the days when you could argue about something because
• 26:31
  you couldn't remember it and the handscan couldn't just didn't
• 26:34
  have a thing in your hand to tell you who was right.
• 26:36
  We argued for all day about which story she said the word
• 26:39
  exquisite in and I said it was this and he said it was city of
• 26:43
  death. And we end up going and getting
• 26:44
  our tapes and it's, it's both, she said sounds.
• 26:48
  Like a great night, though, Pete, those two stories.
• 26:51
  He didn't have to do that establishing shot of the
• 26:53
  factory, did he? With the special effect over it
• 26:56
  like another director wouldn't. It's just little details like
• 26:59
  that. I love these two.
• 27:02
  I think Hugh Walters is magnificent.
• 27:05
  We do not make actors like him anymore.
• 27:07
  You were talking about Camp Toby.
• 27:09
  Yeah, Gloriously, wonderfully, Cap, for everyone that's moaning
• 27:13
  about how gay Doctor Who's got these things, I mean that.
• 27:17
  Ross is on a pink. Screen that Ross on that lovely
• 27:19
  pink screen. I haven't.
• 27:20
  Got a joke about double entry? I've just I've just been
• 27:23
  watching the War Games with Edward Brayshaw striding around
• 27:26
  as gay as it's possible to be, and now I'm watching Revelation
• 27:30
  of the Daleks with Hugh Walters talking about double entries.
• 27:33
  It's glorious. And and true to Doctor Who's
• 27:36
  educational remit, I had to go and I remember looking up where
• 27:38
  actually in the bookmaking sense what it actually was.
• 27:42
  And I now understand that that faceted bookmaking.
• 27:44
  I won't explain it because it's. Boring and you're now being
• 27:45
  investigated by the tax man. The way she just.
• 27:51
  Turned beautiful. I think she's gorgeous in this
• 27:56
  as well. And this was another role that
• 27:58
  had loads of on on the production notes.
• 28:00
  So it just goes on and on the list of all the people they
• 28:02
  considered for that role and includes colossal names and just
• 28:06
  she is just so perfect. Couldn't have been anywhere.
• 28:08
  Else she is great. Oh, go on, were you just name
• 28:10
  and shame a couple of those names?
• 28:11
  Oh. Can't remember what's top end
• 28:13
  now. There's just just everyone,
• 28:14
  every female actor in in the Equity, they got considered for
• 28:18
  that role, I think, yeah. I, Joe Bell didn't really speak
• 28:23
  to me so much in when I was younger.
• 28:25
  I didn't really quite get what all this was about.
• 28:29
  Do you know what I mean? Because I was only 11.
• 28:32
  I was much more into sort of what was going on with Orsini
• 28:35
  and but, but I, I, I think he is so good.
• 28:40
  The brilliant sort of vanity, the this, this weird
• 28:44
  dysfunctional and the way that he does, the way the way that he
• 28:49
  delivers everyone. Clive Swift is absolutely
• 28:52
  phenomenal in this, I think. Later.
• 28:54
  On Really. Your side where he goes.
• 28:57
  You're a very naughty man, yeah. Do you?
• 29:02
  Know I didn't realise he was as funny as he was till I saw it at
• 29:06
  the BFI when this was shown and everyone was just falling about
• 29:10
  every. I was so pleased by that I
• 29:12
  thought I would be the only one laughing and and everyone else
• 29:14
  was laughing at the board members where I laughed too so.
• 29:17
  See, that's great look. You don't see the body there,
• 29:20
  but your imagination is going to do far worse than any makeup
• 29:22
  they're going to show you. I want her fake Jenny Thompson's
• 29:25
  face here where she gets a little compliment from him.
• 29:27
  She's. Looking at the cameras.
• 29:30
  Yeah, now this is and it's very this is.
• 29:32
  We've had vengeance on Paris, haven't we?
• 29:33
  This is the this the. We've got trial of the Time Lord
• 29:35
  next. But this year is always.
• 29:37
  Time lash time lash at the ball ads looking at cameras as.
• 29:40
  Well, yeah. But in in time lash, there's a
• 29:43
  very pointed shot where the doctor walks into the room, the
• 29:45
  camera swings around and there's a massive zoom in on the camera.
• 29:48
  Harper things. No, I'll tell you what, let's
• 29:50
  never show the cameras. Let's just do APOV shot.
• 29:54
  Yeah. Much more effective the bit
• 29:55
  where the doctor walks in to the hall later on and he just sort
• 29:59
  of looks straight up at the camera.
• 30:02
  Yeah, yeah. And looks, yeah, straight out,
• 30:04
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like these two.
• 30:09
  The trouble with these two is, is they're sort of surplus to
• 30:12
  requirements halfway through Episode 2, aren't they?
• 30:14
  And then? Yeah, but you don't know It's
• 30:18
  it's that's the problem. A lot of these, when Sayward
• 30:20
  kills off his characters, when you're re watching and you know
• 30:23
  what their fate's going to be, it means you've got less, you're
• 30:26
  less invested in them during a re watch, I think.
• 30:29
  Whereas at the time on a on a first watch, you don't know if
• 30:32
  these people are going to be the the ones who managed to make it
• 30:34
  to the end alive or not. Yeah, I have a question.
• 30:37
  Yeah. Now, we've already noted that
• 30:40
  there's a superb cast of characters and a brilliant guest
• 30:43
  cast of actors in this that we love being with.
• 30:47
  Is it a problem that Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant are walking on
• 30:51
  the perimeter of the story for the whole of Episode 1?
• 30:55
  I'm afraid it's unforgivable for me and it's a it's a it's a
• 30:58
  shame I and nonetheless, you know, I can still think it's a
• 31:03
  wonderful story. Whilst, I mean, I remember at
• 31:05
  the time my sister watching this with me and this whole guff with
• 31:07
  the, the, the, the watch and she was going what what's happening
• 31:12
  here? And I had to go, I don't
• 31:13
  actually know. And then when it was the pocket
• 31:15
  watch, it's like, oh, is that, is that meant to be a joke?
• 31:18
  But if it's a joke, I always said is, is it supposed to be
• 31:21
  that we think she's trodden on his cock?
• 31:23
  I don't understand. You know what I don't know.
• 31:25
  I don't even know what the parameters of the jokes.
• 31:27
  Are ready, but I don't think that's what they were going for
• 31:30
  and it's. Not just it's not just having
• 31:32
  your two main characters not enter the story till the end of
• 31:34
  episode 1, it's also to squander your film budget on two people
• 31:40
  walking to the story. So as a script editor writing
• 31:44
  the show who understands how the show's resources should be
• 31:47
  marshalled, I think it's it's unforgivable on on, you know,
• 31:51
  one, it's a bit, it's a bit cruel and unfair on the leading
• 31:53
  man that he doesn't like. But two, on a pure practical
• 31:57
  thing of distribution of resources, it's a real waste of
• 32:00
  film. But it is beautiful though.
• 32:03
  I'd still love but but it and and doesn't doesn't Eric have a
• 32:08
  stronger case here than sometimes he does have for
• 32:10
  blaming the producer Ronnie Corbett style?
• 32:13
  The producer said that they had to go to was it Southampton to
• 32:16
  do Cinderella and that's why he had to write a Doctor Lite
• 32:19
  episode. But there are other things they
• 32:22
  could have been doing, I suppose.
• 32:23
  I in my in my head, yeah, in my brain, I come.
• 32:28
  I've invented at some point in my teens a version of this
• 32:31
  that's more like a new adventure.
• 32:33
  And there's two companions and someone like Benny is already on
• 32:37
  the inside, is one of those morticians.
• 32:39
  And the Doctor and Perry are on their way to meet this other
• 32:41
  companion or something, and they're communicating with them.
• 32:44
  That's my six part version in my.
• 32:47
  There is a glorious moment in the Terror of the Vervoids
• 32:50
  commentary. This is where I get all my
• 32:52
  trivia from, where Pip and Jane Baker say to Colin Baker, I
• 32:56
  watched one of your stories where you were just walking
• 32:59
  outside the story for the whole episode.
• 33:01
  Absolutely. And Colin goes, yes, Eric wrote
• 33:04
  that one. How atmospheric are the
• 33:10
  catacombs? Yeah, and the.
• 33:12
  Lighting here is fantastic. Gorgeous.
• 33:14
  And they've just, they've popped in a bit of smoke, haven't they,
• 33:17
  And then lit it really well. Oh and the the studio footage is
• 33:20
  amazing and people people running around with giant
• 33:22
  plasterboard things just trying to get this the right amount of
• 33:24
  smoke. I mean, what the hell is that?
• 33:26
  Tubing on the floor, Who cares? It looks great.
• 33:30
  But if you think this is atmospheric, they're about to
• 33:32
  head into that room full of ghastly brains in a minute.
• 33:35
  And that might be one of the most atmospheric sequences, I
• 33:40
  think, in classic Doctor Who. And.
• 33:44
  But. What's his name?
• 33:46
  The lighting guy? Babbage.
• 33:47
  Don Babbage, Yeah. Who?
• 33:49
  Who was? I'm right, he's more from a
• 33:50
  light entertainment. But oh, the cliffhanger.
• 33:52
  Yeah, this one of the bestest cliffhangers of the four part
• 33:55
  versions. Yeah, which occasionally with
• 33:58
  things like somebody going hello, but that, that actually
• 34:01
  looks like a cliffhanger. Yeah, at least there's a moment
• 34:03
  and a bit of music. I don't know if there isn't that
• 34:06
  was. I really want to compliment the
• 34:09
  set designer. Who is the set designer?
• 34:10
  Alan Spalding. Absolutely.
• 34:12
  If you look at the walls there with the the pictures on it and
• 34:16
  all of those weird statuettes in Davros's lair, none of that
• 34:19
  needed to be there at all. No, it's.
• 34:22
  Great. Lots, lots of little details.
• 34:24
  I mean that was. Beautiful, yeah.
• 34:28
  Into the red and the heartbeat. Lit from below as well, but
• 34:32
  that's unusual, isn't it going to set?
• 34:36
  And it looks like this isn't on film, is it?
• 34:38
  It looks like it could be. No, it's just in the studio.
• 34:40
  Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's it's Harper going how
• 34:43
  can we make this studio seem like we're making a sci-fi
• 34:47
  movie? Whereas, you know, I don't think
• 34:50
  any other director of of this period does that.
• 34:54
  It didn't get like tumble dryers, but.
• 34:56
  You know, you don't necessarily need more any more money to do
• 34:58
  this. It's not that he's been given a
• 35:00
  a bigger budget. He's just, he's just, you know,
• 35:03
  he's just simpatico with how the material should be done.
• 35:07
  Yeah. Was he down to do story in the
• 35:11
  original 23? Graham Harper, I think.
• 35:14
  He, I think he was, yeah. Yeah, we lost out there.
• 35:20
  But I can't see him fitting in in the post in in in those final
• 35:24
  four years. The tone of Doctor Who just
• 35:26
  shifted so much, but that doesn't mean he doesn't mean he
• 35:29
  wouldn't have. It's just hard for me to imagine
• 35:31
  it. Did the Unicorn and the Wasp,
• 35:32
  you know, and he did do a little, he did do a lot of
• 35:34
  sitcoms, so he can do the, you know, it would have been
• 35:37
  interesting. I think, you know, I think we
• 35:40
  should have desperately tried to have him.
• 35:42
  When you said earlier about him taking on the season, I just
• 35:45
  thought oh what? Which one of a time not look
• 35:46
  like had really done the whole year.
• 35:48
  Oh wow, yeah. Very different, I'm sure.
• 35:53
  This sequence with the glass. It's one of my favorite
• 35:57
  sequences in all of Doctor Who. I think it's phenomenal.
• 36:00
  The way his face appears, the way we see Gregory's face 1st
• 36:04
  through the glass and then the eye.
• 36:05
  Yeah, it's every single shot and moment of this sequence is
• 36:10
  superbly done. It's quite.
• 36:13
  Strong stuff for Doctor Who. I was convinced I was never
• 36:16
  going to see anything more grotesque than that popping off
• 36:19
  all on his. Head Brilliant.
• 36:24
  My. Father is horrible.
• 36:27
  And in this we don't get the line the famous famous line from
• 36:30
  the novel of he was a super father and one of the finest
• 36:35
  agronomists in the Galaxy. Somebody put that on Twitter the
• 36:38
  other day and it made me want to get the book because it I
• 36:41
  thought, God, it's people have said it's bad, but that I mean,
• 36:45
  that's, I mean, that's more than bad.
• 36:48
  I'll tell you this though, but there's a whole sort of sequence
• 36:50
  towards the end of the story that Eric adds where Colin has
• 36:54
  to take off his trousers at one point and sort of run around.
• 36:58
  It's very bizarre. Very.
• 37:00
  Very. Oh dear.
• 37:01
  No, I haven't. I haven't had the pleasure of
• 37:02
  them yet, I have to say. And I think Alexi's performance
• 37:06
  here does successfully pivot to being genuinely, genuinely
• 37:09
  unsettling. And even though he's doing it
• 37:11
  over the top, he's spoofing us, he's spoofing it, it's still
• 37:14
  scary. Go.
• 37:15
  From the horror to something that is overly funny.
• 37:19
  Is this who I missed the line, my Davos goes.
• 37:22
  Shut the fool up. And it always sounds to me like
• 37:24
  he's going to say something else.
• 37:26
  But things have changed right? In Arc in Space, Philip Hinch
• 37:30
  can't let a scene go out where somebody said please kill me.
• 37:34
  Would it he? Said, well, I, I have a theory
• 37:36
  that Eric Saywood decided to try and do the things that had been
• 37:40
  banned previously and that and then he knew that that had
• 37:43
  happened and decided to do it is.
• 37:46
  It like policeman in resurrection.
• 37:48
  Yeah, yeah, that all things that they got into trouble for
• 37:51
  before. There probably was a list,
• 37:54
  wasn't there? Don't go there list.
• 37:55
  And he thought, I'm going to go there, Yeah.
• 37:57
  Will you please disabuse me of of?
• 37:59
  Someone told me that that is Osgood from the demons.
• 38:03
  It's Osgood and Jellico from robots.
• 38:06
  I mean Alec Linstead. Yeah, I mean this is how new
• 38:09
  series Osgood got created. It is an amazing but the way it
• 38:12
  rises his performance and. He's brilliant.
• 38:16
  Oh yeah, voice comes in. And it, and it makes sense of
• 38:20
  how, you know, organic people, you know, emotional normal
• 38:25
  people can transform into a Dalek.
• 38:28
  And it has that sort of perverse thing of it's the, it's the
• 38:30
  residue of what was once human suddenly becoming Dalek.
• 38:34
  I think it makes absolute sense of what they are, what they do
• 38:38
  to us, how grotesque a parody they are of what what what
• 38:42
  they've come from. And I think they all do it.
• 38:44
  I think they're all magnificent in this.
• 38:46
  And the more excited, I mean, basically, yeah.
• 38:49
  Yeah. Throbbing organ it's It throbs
• 38:53
  more dramatically the more he gets angry.
• 38:57
  It's. And I love the way he's it's.
• 38:58
  Hard to talk over it. His sort of face remains
• 39:01
  impassive when he says kill me as well and the emotions all in
• 39:03
  in the voice because it would be easy to sort of sort of let his
• 39:07
  face become human for a moment. But he, he, I think he's
• 39:10
  actually makes the more interesting choice, I think
• 39:14
  terrific. To the shot of the shattering
• 39:16
  Dalek, which is beautiful. And so you watched this go out
• 39:20
  at tea time, Toby. I did.
• 39:22
  Yeah, I, I watched, I had it, I had it taped.
• 39:25
  And so I didn't get to see it until that.
• 39:26
  We got back from holiday and it was quite late when everyone
• 39:29
  else had gone to bed. And I was, I was watching this
• 39:30
  for the first time a few days after it went out, but at
• 39:34
  midnight. He's got a flick knife and he's
• 39:36
  threatening to scar. I'm not.
• 39:38
  This is is it? Too much though, like I'm not
• 39:41
  asking the child you that would say no more more more.
• 39:44
  I'm asking the adult, but in both of you, I think that's
• 39:47
  exactly because it wouldn't go out now.
• 39:49
  Adults should think it's too much then kids should disagree,
• 39:52
  I think. Yeah, it's, it's, it's tricky,
• 39:57
  isn't it? It's, it's, you know, I don't, I
• 40:00
  don't think television harms anybody, but it does.
• 40:03
  But of course, you know, the quality of your culture does
• 40:05
  have an impact on, on your development.
• 40:09
  But if, if if it's containable within fiction.
• 40:13
  And do I think it would make anybody go out and get a flick
• 40:16
  knife? I don't.
• 40:16
  I don't think it would. But I'm not glib about knife
• 40:19
  crime either. And especially that it's a it
• 40:21
  taints the youth of today terribly.
• 40:23
  So you know I'm not. But they aren't watching this.
• 40:26
  No, but they aren't watching this.
• 40:28
  No. To get inspired to go and do it.
• 40:30
  Are they? Yeah, well, indeed, indeed.
• 40:32
  If that was the if. Yeah.
• 40:33
  And of course, politicians like to blame popular culture for for
• 40:38
  actually things that are failings of society because it's
• 40:40
  an it's an easy 2:00 and 2:00 to put together to get a a fall
• 40:44
  that should you know, is actually is actually the sum of
• 40:48
  things going on elsewhere. But why concentrate on the ills
• 40:52
  of society when you have one of the greatest turns in all of
• 40:57
  Doctor Who? And this was what was exciting.
• 40:59
  I remember watching this at the time and my brothers and sister
• 41:03
  were about and them being, oh, it's the guy from the comedy,
• 41:08
  because of course he was, he was he's a respected actor, William
• 41:11
  Gaunt, but he was hugely visible at the time for being the sort
• 41:15
  of the slightly put up on, you know, dad of dads in no place
• 41:19
  like home, in which he's very dryly funny.
• 41:22
  And and this is, you know, Doctor Who often casts comedy
• 41:25
  names and the and because Doctor Who is about dissonance and
• 41:29
  juxtaposition and all sorts of things clashing together to make
• 41:33
  magic, having somebody that you used to seeing in a sort of
• 41:37
  sitcomy thing playing a leather jacketed assassin with a machine
• 41:41
  gun is exactly. The sort of.
• 41:44
  Casting in Doctor Who, that turns me on and I am giving him
• 41:48
  a, giving him a ponytail as well and a smelly psychic made by the
• 41:53
  guy from District Nurse. And I think John Ogwood's great
• 41:55
  as well. I think it's I think it's a
• 41:57
  magnificent piece of casting. I love these four and I would
• 42:02
  watch them do everything forever.
• 42:05
  That's the yeah, this is this could be a pilot.
• 42:07
  Oh, this? Line of when he goes, perhaps
• 42:10
  you'd like one of our technicians to repair it.
• 42:12
  Yeah. And he put even just a little
• 42:14
  point to repair it. He's changed his mind, but he's
• 42:17
  already said the first half of the word so he has to finish.
• 42:19
  And they are like a double act aren't they just finishing each
• 42:22
  other sentences? All the time and and saying that
• 42:25
  the people in it, you know someone who's one of a double
• 42:27
  act, saying of the others, they're like a double act.
• 42:30
  But as well, it's it's gone underplays it doesn't he and
• 42:34
  he's given sort of overtly comic lines.
• 42:36
  He doesn't play them for gags. So I think he takes some kind of
• 42:40
  pony lines and spins them into gold.
• 42:43
  And I'm never, and we're not sure at this point, whether he
• 42:45
  really is what he's made-up to be.
• 42:46
  Maybe he isn't a good assassin. Maybe.
• 42:48
  Has he ever actually killed anyone?
• 42:49
  Did he just get expelled from his order because he's crap?
• 42:51
  At this point, we don't know how many of these characters turn
• 42:55
  out to not be what they're posing as.
• 42:57
  Later we get to see his metal, of course.
• 42:59
  I was yeah, yeah, but but and and all that stuff about I
• 43:01
  donate what fee I received to charity is all is all beautiful
• 43:05
  texture Yeah, I feel humble. In his presence.
• 43:09
  But but of course, I think the suggestion is that it, it is a
• 43:12
  bit of an act because in the next scene, you know, he gives
• 43:15
  that a stirring speech about going, you'll never hear from us
• 43:18
  again. You know, we're off into the
• 43:19
  shadows to do what we do. She goes, I, I haven't given you
• 43:22
  the I haven't given you the code to blow up the bomb.
• 43:25
  And then I, but again, a lesser actor and director would point
• 43:30
  that out and, and make him trip over or look at as far as Orsini
• 43:33
  is concerned, he's the real deal there.
• 43:36
  I think there are enough little indications there that actually
• 43:40
  we're all, you know, every, everyone is kind of pretending,
• 43:44
  which we all do in order to make sense of this crazy world, you
• 43:47
  know? And I and I love when Doctor Who
• 43:49
  attempts to be that sophisticated but wears it so
• 43:53
  lightly, you know, and doesn't doesn't point it out, which
• 43:57
  makes it even more sophisticated.
• 43:58
  Interesting. Can I just say Davros watching
• 44:02
  the doctor walk into his trap and cackling like a lunatic?
• 44:08
  I mean, it's a very different Davros from Resurrection, isn't
• 44:11
  it? It's it's Malloy's best
• 44:12
  performance. I think he's great in this.
• 44:14
  And sorry, yeah, go on, Pete. Well, I'd wonder if there's an
• 44:18
  interplay between him and Sill this year.
• 44:21
  You've got similar agendas that they're they're they're both
• 44:24
  approaching capitalism and in very different ways.
• 44:27
  Because Sil is pure capitalist for the capitalism sake, whereas
• 44:31
  Davros is just toying with it because he wants to have his
• 44:33
  army and he seems and he wants to be entertained.
• 44:35
  He, Davis, is entertained by the love lives of these people.
• 44:39
  He's a he's, well, he's a voyeur, isn't he?
• 44:41
  He's Rim. Oh, there's not a great aside
• 44:44
  here. Are you picking picking your
• 44:46
  nose? Yeah.
• 44:47
  Not a line you think you would hear in Doctor Who.
• 44:49
  It's a very visceral. It's not, you know, people pick
• 44:51
  their nose. They've got all that stuff from
• 44:53
  Gregory about, you know, I haven't got a vessel in which he
• 44:55
  could be suitably ladled. The corpse is frothing.
• 44:58
  It's all. It's all inside.
• 45:00
  With the dead, he says later on, it's all those things we don't
• 45:03
  really have. But it's all sort of into bodily
• 45:06
  functions and viscera and, you know, it's it's which which
• 45:10
  marks it out as being really interesting.
• 45:12
  And again, as a kid, this felt like my, you know, my programme
• 45:16
  was being a was be all grown up, you know, yes.
• 45:18
  That's it. It's so grown up.
• 45:20
  Yeah. The one who looks like Michael
• 45:22
  Jason picking his nose. We just had a moment to get
• 45:24
  around. Yeah.
• 45:26
  But you want, but that's what you, of course, this is what I
• 45:28
  think. Sometimes people forget,
• 45:29
  especially when in science fiction, when they put kid
• 45:31
  characters in it because they think the kid needs somebody to
• 45:34
  identify. No, kids drama is aspirational.
• 45:37
  You want you want to be the grown up.
• 45:39
  You want to be like the grown-ups because grown-ups seem
• 45:41
  cool. Kids are rubbish.
• 45:44
  They're like a double. Like there we go.
• 45:47
  And again, Bostock has no, Bostock stinks.
• 45:50
  You know, he's, he's got no personal, you know, his attitude
• 45:53
  towards personal hygiene and all that sort of thing.
• 45:55
  It just, it just takes the show into areas that it doesn't
• 45:58
  normally go that that just make it seem more real, even though
• 46:02
  it's heightened reality and grotesque reality, you know?
• 46:06
  And he's a complete. We head, we head into the future
• 46:09
  a lot, right? But I do think this is one of
• 46:10
  the best divines defined little corners of the universe that we
• 46:14
  ever go to because of the characters we meet in this.
• 46:19
  I just it's really. Vivid.
• 46:20
  Isn't it in a way that perhaps, I don't know, car fail perhaps
• 46:24
  wasn't? Perhaps not.
• 46:26
  Yeah, yes, it's it's just stunning.
• 46:28
  This is a week after everybody in beige and was wandering
• 46:30
  around being beige on Carville and that these two, these two
• 46:34
  sidekicks are so utterly opposed, opposites of each
• 46:37
  other. You could not have a more there
• 46:41
  are so. Many double acts here right and
• 46:43
  I know it's a cliche the home is in double act but you know they
• 46:46
  were getting on I just. I mean, often when people use
• 46:51
  that phrase, they're just talking about two characters
• 46:52
  having really good dialogue that where the thing that one
• 46:55
  person's saying informs you about both characters at the
• 46:58
  same time and not necessarily just the way what they're
• 47:01
  saying. You know what, to other places,
• 47:02
  probably a couple way of describing that.
• 47:04
  Though I don't think it's as pronounced as it is here.
• 47:07
  No, no, no. This is it.
• 47:08
  This is it working. Yeah, yeah.
• 47:11
  I just wish I'd I want Hugh Walters to be my friend.
• 47:14
  I think he's just wonderful. He played Jacqueline Pierce's
• 47:22
  sidekick in a Big Finish audio. He did.
• 47:24
  Yeah, he did. He.
• 47:26
  Was just as camping that he was glorious.
• 47:30
  And that like and he's runceable.
• 47:31
  I didn't recognise him as runceable for years.
• 47:35
  And, well, I didn't recognise him as the other person he is
• 47:37
  for years, you know, You know his other person in He's William
• 47:42
  Shakespeare in the chase of. Course.
• 47:44
  Yes. Scribbler.
• 47:48
  But yeah, he's such a lovely, lovely act.
• 47:50
  And he played Charles Hawtry in the Carry On core Blimey thing
• 47:55
  that they did about Sid James and Kenneth Williams, and he's
• 47:58
  Charles Hawtry and he's perfect casting for Charles Hawtry.
• 48:01
  He's a gorgeous gorgeous. Actor, I have not given you the
• 48:05
  sequence. Yeah, so you see.
• 48:07
  The young. Brawl it.
• 48:08
  It undercuts all of that lovely stuff that William Gaunt does so
• 48:13
  brilliantly and it just undercuts it very cleverly.
• 48:18
  Oh, these scenes with Tassa Baker and Davros are something
• 48:22
  else. You couldn't, like you couldn't
• 48:24
  have imagined a scene like this being written for Davros prior
• 48:26
  to it being done. There's just you can't imagine
• 48:29
  the Davros of Genesis of the Daleks having a conversation
• 48:31
  with a a frumpy woman, manipulating her emotions and
• 48:35
  enjoying manipulating her emotionally.
• 48:37
  Yeah. It's.
• 48:38
  And yet it. And yet it's completely the
• 48:40
  same. And yet it all hangs together.
• 48:42
  It is that same Davros. I don't deny that.
• 48:44
  I don't. Yeah.
• 48:47
  And there is a beautifully subtle bit of direction in a
• 48:50
  minute where he offers for her to become like a Dalek.
• 48:52
  She turns round and the Dalek. Is.
• 48:55
  Just. Air in her face.
• 48:57
  He he shoots the Dalek so close, he's really aware of how to
• 49:01
  bring out the best in them. Because he's not treating them
• 49:05
  as just the Daleks. He like maybe some director.
• 49:08
  Just think of them as these props that you've got to move
• 49:10
  about in this they are. They've got to have a of a
• 49:14
  feeling. There's got to be a tone in
• 49:15
  every single shot that they're in that shot Earlier, the Dalek
• 49:19
  was checking Lilton Tarkas's passes in the corridor and just
• 49:23
  sort of, you know, everyone who's ever called an officious
• 49:25
  bully being like a Dalek. Oh, here we go.
• 49:29
  Yeah, the Diet's actually doing the sort of.
• 49:31
  It's it's slightly muffled by the funnel, by the fact that
• 49:33
  Colin Spall takes ages to get his pass out and it gives up and
• 49:36
  moves. On I don't really care, but this
• 49:40
  is a great show yeah the the the.
• 49:43
  Harper must have been so happy when he found this.
• 49:45
  Like look at it, it looks. Gorgeous.
• 49:48
  And the white, yeah, I mean, it's so perfect for the white of
• 49:50
  the snow and the white Dalek is even the perfect colour scene
• 49:53
  for a Dalek to see in the snow just is that I think that's the
• 49:56
  one that. Sorry, I was going to say just
• 49:57
  the way that Davros convinces Tasen Baker to watch Joe Belt on
• 50:02
  the cameras because he knows how appalling he behaves and, and,
• 50:06
  and how much she'll want to kill him because of it.
• 50:08
  There's just nothing else like that in Doctor Who, is there?
• 50:11
  And I mean, it's a love. It's has some because love for
• 50:14
  Joel quite did. Love is at the heart of it,
• 50:17
  which you just do not get in Doctor Who very often.
• 50:19
  So grotesque. He's so awful.
• 50:22
  Like what does she see in him? Love is blind.
• 50:26
  So these two have been these two have been beaten up.
• 50:29
  Look, she's got she's been punched in the face.
• 50:31
  She's been threatened with being scarred by a marked by a flip
• 50:35
  knock. And now they're going to and
• 50:37
  he's, he's obviously been knocked about a bit and now
• 50:40
  they're going to pour booze down the throat of an alcoholic that.
• 50:43
  I think is too much. That bit where he's you know
• 50:47
  she's going to stop it, you'll kill him.
• 50:49
  It's really well played, but. It's I didn't understand that
• 50:52
  when I was younger. And obviously then when I
• 50:57
  revisited it as a sort of teenager, it seemed so grown up.
• 51:01
  And again, I was desperate for Doctor Who to be grown up.
• 51:04
  But of course, sometimes when you get much older, you realize
• 51:07
  that often attempts to be grown up are a little bit childish.
• 51:10
  You know, I remember the first time we were allowed to swear in
• 51:14
  an English, you know, in this story of our English teacher.
• 51:17
  No, you could swear if you want. So of course I put loads of
• 51:19
  swearing and he went in and in trying to be grown up, you've
• 51:22
  actually, you know, you've actually showed how young you
• 51:24
  are because you've, you've thrown it out Willy nilly, sort
• 51:27
  of. Just to find all the problems,
• 51:29
  we've talked with Siri one there well.
• 51:31
  In pretty much, yeah, absolutely.
• 51:33
  And it's defence, this, at least this scene is packed with
• 51:36
  development and we're learning things all through these
• 51:38
  exchanges about, you know, about the fact that this isn't really
• 51:42
  that nobody's really coming back from the dead in this place and
• 51:44
  all of that. So it's not just, well, it does
• 51:48
  go as far as Doctor Who's ever gone, probably.
• 51:50
  Don't we come back to him in a minute and he's absolutely
• 51:53
  pissed. As Housey as she goes.
• 51:55
  I didn't make him drunk and then he's throttling him.
• 51:58
  It's snow. But it's it's beautifully shot
• 52:00
  as well, the way that they have Trevor Cooper in the foreground,
• 52:02
  sort of not, not looking at the action, sort of distancing
• 52:05
  himself from it. And it's just a scene with four
• 52:09
  people. But there's so much going on
• 52:11
  with it. Again, it just shows how
• 52:13
  ambitious Harper is to make every line and every character
• 52:18
  interaction count in a series where quite often you can have
• 52:20
  four people in a room just saying stuff at each other,
• 52:23
  every line, every piece of interaction.
• 52:26
  Harper does counts, you know, and the pacing of this look,
• 52:29
  we're talking, we're making one point and we have already had a
• 52:32
  scene with the DJ come and go. It's it's quite snappy as well
• 52:36
  for something that's that's developing at A at a slower pace
• 52:40
  in other places. Because he's got both Davros and
• 52:43
  the DJ watching the action in various places.
• 52:46
  Like, you have so many transitions, don't you?
• 52:47
  From. One to the other and.
• 52:49
  And commentary on that as well. It's very clever.
• 52:52
  Whatever happened to the Collins statue I.
• 52:54
  Don't. I don't remember.
• 52:55
  It was on stage at one of the few conventions I went to at
• 52:58
  Panopticon. Really, it lasted.
• 53:01
  Yeah, it was at a panopticon, but this was, I mean, I crumble.
• 53:03
  It was, it was in the 80. It was in the 80s.
• 53:05
  Oh, I see. Right.
• 53:07
  Yeah. And I and I, and I think, I
• 53:09
  think they said, you know, we who wants it because we, you
• 53:13
  know, we need to, we need to get, you know, we, we, we
• 53:15
  haven't got anywhere to put it. Wasn't it Rick to have blood
• 53:21
  come out of it and they. Considered.
• 53:23
  That's too strong. They considered that too strong.
• 53:26
  When I first glimpsed it, I did I thought I did do a have to do
• 53:29
  a double take as to whether it was meant to be Tom or Colin
• 53:31
  Baker. When I I remember thinking when
• 53:32
  I first saw is that is that him or is that the 4th dog?
• 53:36
  I I don't like Perry's reaction to this either that because 1 he
• 53:40
  could die here at any point and it'd be nothing to do with her,
• 53:44
  and it's just a slight sign of writing the characters to be a
• 53:48
  bit sort of more selfish and unlikeable than I'd like my
• 53:51
  doctrine companion to be. If Perry's first thought is, oh,
• 53:55
  sod, sod you, what about I might be here?
• 53:57
  It's, it just, it's, it's, it's not an instinct responsive
• 54:01
  response that I, I want in my characters that I'm supposed to
• 54:03
  be rooting for, especially in a story where everyone's pretty
• 54:06
  cynical and selfish anyway. Can I confess something about
• 54:11
  this cliffhanger? So I watched the repeat of this
• 54:15
  when it went out, and I was impressionable enough that the
• 54:17
  cliffhangers really got me. Yeah, I remember that Kate
• 54:20
  Evangel's only one cliffhanger. I was obsessed about it for the
• 54:23
  whole week. But this cliffhanger for some
• 54:25
  reason really got me and I had this stand up wardrobe in my
• 54:30
  bedroom and I went upstairs and played the cliffhanger to
• 54:33
  Revelation. I used to throw that wardrobe on
• 54:36
  me all the time and I was screaming to the back of the
• 54:38
  room, dumped in the statue. My mum walked in and went what
• 54:43
  are you doing? And I was like, oh, you know, I
• 54:46
  was a strange kid, but that is absolutely genuine.
• 54:49
  Oh dear. This was the point period where
• 54:52
  I was recording I was paralleled about my E 180's running out of
• 54:55
  space, so I always edited out the cliffhangers live but by by
• 55:00
  pausing it on the and that invariably LED usually to a two
• 55:05
  second repeat or losing a couple of seconds.
• 55:09
  I was amazed how many no's there were at the end of Part 1 of
• 55:11
  Attackers Aside and then once I finally got to see my it's.
• 55:14
  Like Bohemian Rhapsody isn't. It yeah, but I lost about half
• 55:16
  of them when I was doing my edit.
• 55:17
  So actually I think I slightly improved that one.
• 55:19
  But like, sort of put yourself in the headspace of being a kid
• 55:22
  again. Can you still remember the
• 55:24
  tangible excitement of the cliffhangers?
• 55:27
  Because I had that build up and just the music kicking in and
• 55:30
  being desperate to know what happened next.
• 55:32
  Because I, I still feel it now, even though I've seen these.
• 55:36
  It's, you know, his borrowed excitement, but he's still
• 55:39
  there. Yeah, I'm going to take you by
• 55:41
  surprise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:46
  The, the, the cliffhangers were a key element.
• 55:48
  I mean, it's no accident in Doctor Who Magazine, the, the,
• 55:51
  the episode guide, it didn't give a synopsis of the whole
• 55:54
  story. It just gave you what every
• 55:56
  cliffhanger was. And it, you know, really felt
• 55:58
  like the cliffhangers were were in a, you know, they're an
• 56:00
  essential part of the show, a distinctive part of.
• 56:03
  That and there and there's there are some that take you by
• 56:05
  surprise by not being when you think they're going to be that
• 56:06
  episode of Kinder where it's like the universe is going to
• 56:09
  end and then the episode doesn't end and then someone says the
• 56:12
  old woman, she's dead. Yeah, I think it was supposed to
• 56:15
  end there, but then there was a timing issue.
• 56:18
  Right. Well, it really worked for me
• 56:20
  because, because, because why hasn't it ended?
• 56:22
  What's happened there was more shocking that it didn't end when
• 56:25
  you expected it to. So as we out episode 1 then, can
• 56:28
  I ask you both questions? Do you think this succeeds more
• 56:32
  as an episode of Doctor Who or as a scene setter of a piece of
• 56:37
  drama? Pete.
• 56:41
  I think it, I think it succeeds as an, as a very unusual episode
• 56:44
  of Doctor Who, an episode of Doctor Who that breaks a lot of
• 56:46
  the rules. They've been experimenting with
• 56:48
  this height idea of this year of having instead of just doing 90
• 56:52
  minutes stories chopped in half instead of into four quarters,
• 56:55
  they're doing a long episode 1 and then the rest of the story
• 56:58
  more quickly in the second-half sort of thing, which I think was
• 57:01
  an interesting and quite brave thing to experiment with.
• 57:04
  And, and yeah, I mean, I just think it's really watchful.
• 57:07
  You get to learn to meet all you can't.
• 57:09
  You get to know these characters so well, you get tied.
• 57:11
  And they're probably. And part of the reason you could
• 57:12
  attract such a good cast is that they've got so much dialogue and
• 57:16
  things to do with their parts. Which if, if, if Colin, if this
• 57:20
  was being done properly and Colin was in the middle of it
• 57:22
  all and was, was meeting Cara and everything, that would mean
• 57:25
  they'd have to be on the same set.
• 57:26
  So it would make it smaller. So I think it it the the rules
• 57:29
  that it breaks and that Doctor Who shouldn't break nevertheless
• 57:34
  and able it to do some other things really well.
• 57:37
  So yeah, that isn't, I haven't actually picked, I haven't
• 57:40
  actually answered your question, but those are some.
• 57:42
  Thoughts that I have, you're basically saying.
• 57:44
  Yeah, yeah, a bit of both. Toby Well, to answer your
• 57:48
  question, it's difficult. I mean, I'm, I'm a bit sort of,
• 57:55
  I'm a bit dim, even though I've, I've written things
• 57:58
  professionally, but dim when it comes to scripts really.
• 58:00
  I I, I, I don't really sort of think about it in, in, in that
• 58:04
  sense and in, in terms of it. Yeah, it's because it seems to
• 58:07
  set up the story and then, you know, everyone dies next week.
• 58:10
  That, I mean, that's what Saywood's there for it.
• 58:13
  And I, I don't mind that, you know, the sort of films I grew
• 58:15
  up watching, especially the ones that were so memorable to us at
• 58:18
  Christmas time, whatever were The Towering Inferno and the
• 58:20
  Poseidon Adventure. And you know, essentially you
• 58:23
  get a group disparate group of people together and then you're
• 58:25
  sad when the ones that die, die and you're relieved when the
• 58:28
  ones that you like don't die and vice versa or whatever.
• 58:31
  And that's, and that's what Doctor Who does a lot of in, in
• 58:33
  this period. And it seemed perfectly natural
• 58:35
  to me that that's what it should do.
• 58:38
  And, and, and As for it being a piece of Doctor Who, you see,
• 58:41
  this is, This is why you cannot break anything down into
• 58:45
  constituent parts really, because we could make a very
• 58:48
  good case on paper for why this is a terrible piece of Doctor
• 58:52
  Who for all sorts of different reasons.
• 58:55
  But I don't care because I like it, I think, and I think it's
• 58:59
  good quality. It is very well made.
• 59:02
  It is very well acted. And so the fact that if you
• 59:05
  wanted to do a sort of mathematical takedown of the
• 59:08
  script in terms of its structure or its what it does with a
• 59:11
  doctor or, or, or its tone or its ratio of, you know, violence
• 59:15
  to exposition, you could, you could make a mathematical case
• 59:19
  for it being ham fisted in a, in a number of different ways.
• 59:22
  But it doesn't matter because it's done so gloriously.
• 59:25
  It's a bit, you know, it's a bit like a recipe that, you know,
• 59:28
  dish that can be made out of, you know, not the best
• 59:31
  ingredients and yet still be absolutely gorgeous or or you
• 59:36
  can have somethings made out of the best ingredients, but put
• 59:38
  together in a way that that knackers all of them.
• 59:41
  And actually a lot of the ingredients of this, you know
• 59:44
  what what everything that Harper Marshalls to tell this story
• 59:48
  means that actually what it's like on paper doesn't really
• 59:52
  matter. And actually there's, you know,
• 59:56
  I don't want to then mean that Saywood doesn't get any of the
• 1:00:00
  credit because I think that even if some of its derivative and
• 1:00:04
  he's trying to, you know, be, be homes in, in places or even in
• 1:00:07
  war, even, you know, there's a, there's a sardonic humor that I
• 1:00:12
  like. There's a, there's a visceral
• 1:00:14
  element to the dialogue that that I remember, you know,
• 1:00:17
  really excited me when I came back to it as a teenager and
• 1:00:19
  thought, wow, this is, this is the stuff.
• 1:00:21
  And it's the sort of stuff that I I wanted to show other people,
• 1:00:24
  to show them that Doctor Who could be all grown up and
• 1:00:26
  exciting and I think. And I think it works on a number
• 1:00:30
  of levels. So yeah, I absolutely you could
• 1:00:34
  take this apart in any way you wanted to, but it wouldn't stop
• 1:00:37
  me from liking it and thinking it's good.
• 1:00:40
  The reason? I think this is a great bit of
• 1:00:43
  Doctor Who is because it breaks all the rules and and it's doing
• 1:00:48
  something different and it is grotesque and it is a bit sexy
• 1:00:51
  or romantic more than sexy. And it is visceral and it's
• 1:00:55
  nasty and people are picking their noses and someone's having
• 1:00:58
  alcohol guzzled down their neck and there's flick knives on
• 1:01:02
  display and it's going to get even worse next week.
• 1:01:04
  You say it all ends in a load of deaths, which it does, but fuck
• 1:01:07
  me, they're great deaths when you wouldn't guess all deaths.
• 1:01:11
  You'd never guess at this point who are going to be the only two
• 1:01:13
  characters that we met in Episode 1 that are still alive
• 1:01:16
  at the end of the show. Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  In fact, I think you'd probably have them too, as the ones to
• 1:01:20
  die first. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:22
  Well, should we go and watch, you know, an admissibly
• 1:01:24
  beautifully staged massacre? Why not?
• 1:02:04
  A hamster with a blump pen knife for doing quicker, quicker,
• 1:02:06
  quicker. Welcome back to a Hamster with a
• 1:02:09
  Blump and Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary podcast back to form
• 1:02:13
  there The we are here today to talk about episode 2 of
• 1:02:19
  Revelation of the Daleks. I am here with the beautiful Mr.
• 1:02:24
  Pete Lambert. Hello, Pete.
• 1:02:26
  Hello, hello, very nice to be here enjoying this amazing
• 1:02:29
  story. I'm.
• 1:02:29
  Sure, you're very used to being called beautiful on these
• 1:02:31
  podcasts, is that right? That's right.
• 1:02:37
  I just don't. You don't like getting tongue
• 1:02:38
  tied when you go all nice and saying nice things, say rude
• 1:02:42
  things. I'm more comfortable with that.
• 1:02:44
  I don't know, that sort of rude thing.
• 1:02:45
  Actually, no. Whatever this episode 2 we can
• 1:02:47
  get, we can get the 12 certificate of the Episode 2,
• 1:02:49
  can't we? I am also joined by the equally
• 1:02:54
  beautiful Mr. Toby Heydo. Hello, Toby.
• 1:02:57
  You know any saying actually just called him beautiful.
• 1:02:59
  You never say I'm sexy. You never say I've got a lovely
• 1:03:01
  voice like you do to all the others.
• 1:03:03
  It's like I will never be the lilt to your Tarkus.
• 1:03:07
  It makes me very I'm more like the Tassembiker to your Joe
• 1:03:10
  Bell, right Is I listen to I listen to how I'm still with a
• 1:03:13
  blood pen. Any other fucker comes on.
• 1:03:15
  He's like, oh, listen to, listen to your dulcet tones and oh,
• 1:03:20
  you're all sexy. And then with me, he goes.
• 1:03:23
  And now we've got someone who's available.
• 1:03:27
  It's it's Toby Haddock with his long podcast history.
• 1:03:32
  I've spent half the week with you, all right?
• 1:03:36
  Yeah, well, obviously it shows that what familiarity does well.
• 1:03:39
  You do in tranquil repose. Is that what that does that make
• 1:03:43
  me the DJ, forcing me to watch even more Doctor Who?
• 1:03:46
  Commentary is going to murder me and then be going well, why did
• 1:03:49
  I do it to save people from listening to any more.
• 1:03:55
  But as I've got a question for you about Episode 2 of
• 1:03:58
  Revelation of the Daleks before we go in.
• 1:03:59
  And that is, let's say we're putting Doctor Who on trial here
• 1:04:04
  because it is just about to be put on hiatus after this.
• 1:04:09
  Yeah. On the evidence presented at the
• 1:04:12
  end of the season, well, the season as a whole and this story
• 1:04:19
  in particular, were they making a good call?
• 1:04:24
  Well, I mean, I think if your show has just been called
• 1:04:26
  violent and unimaginative and this is what you've got in the
• 1:04:29
  can, you're probably shitting yourself because there's,
• 1:04:33
  there's not a lot you can do. Imagine Doctor Who having
• 1:04:38
  certain sort of accusations made about, you know, what it what
• 1:04:43
  it's aiming for, it's style and how it characterizes itself and
• 1:04:48
  about to broadcast something that you've got no control over
• 1:04:51
  that's been in the can for ages. That might just be more of the
• 1:04:53
  same. So good job history doesn't
• 1:04:55
  repeat itself, but it, it, yeah, I you can imagine them kind of
• 1:05:01
  going, Oh, well, nothing that we're putting out is a repost to
• 1:05:06
  anything. We light.
• 1:05:07
  Up that Michael grade has said I mean I'm in I'm in absolutely 2
• 1:05:13
  minds about this period of Doctor Who I was I was there at
• 1:05:16
  the time, but I was a fan who was always wanting to be crossed
• 1:05:19
  with Doctor Who. But I also I they have to say
• 1:05:22
  the violence and the action and the characters getting picked
• 1:05:26
  off 1 by 1 was exactly the sort of thing that I was after So and
• 1:05:30
  it's difficult to divorce yourself from, you know the show
• 1:05:34
  that you watched as a as a kid. But I absolutely understand
• 1:05:40
  people for whom this is precisely what Doctor Who
• 1:05:44
  shouldn't be doing. And, and Eric Saywood's dislike
• 1:05:46
  for the show and for this lead man and for what he was doing
• 1:05:49
  and, and his, his discovery or his, you know, refinding of, of,
• 1:05:57
  of his voice for cynical humor and death and violence.
• 1:06:00
  I mean, I remember, I remember talking to him about
• 1:06:03
  resurrection of the Daleks. And in the script for that, the
• 1:06:05
  Doctor goes in before he kills Davros and shoots the guards
• 1:06:09
  dead. And and I and I said, you know,
• 1:06:11
  that's that's what it sits in the script.
• 1:06:13
  And he said, well, he trotted out his line of, you know,
• 1:06:15
  sometimes violent situations call for violent responses and
• 1:06:18
  you go, yeah, but not from not from the doctor.
• 1:06:21
  And yes, we know that the doctor has killed somebody.
• 1:06:24
  But to casually mow down a couple of guards suggests to me,
• 1:06:27
  Oh, you're really not getting this this show.
• 1:06:31
  So you know, I'd and I know that we buy the doctors liberalness
• 1:06:37
  on the back of a lot of hypocrisy because you know,
• 1:06:39
  he'll blow up a monster without thinking or you'll get other
• 1:06:41
  people to do it. And I get that.
• 1:06:43
  But I think the message of the show, no matter how complex it
• 1:06:45
  has to be, if you dig down and it because it has to be an
• 1:06:48
  action adventure where things do get blown up and the and the
• 1:06:51
  hero has to be proactive. If, if, if what your that sort
• 1:06:55
  of message that you're sending out is on the whole, it's best
• 1:06:59
  not to just kill people Willy nilly and to fall back on
• 1:07:03
  violence and that your character has to at least espouse the
• 1:07:07
  virtues of peaceful negotiation and and and and understanding
• 1:07:12
  etcetera, etcetera. You know, that's that's the
• 1:07:15
  format is hide bound by that. But I you know, I know I know
• 1:07:19
  people who've you know who who are fans of the whole.
• 1:07:23
  In fact, I've and I think this is maybe listening to some of
• 1:07:25
  your podcasts, Joe or or or some other podcasts where you know,
• 1:07:29
  where you listen to other people talking about this season are
• 1:07:31
  making a very good case for the fact that this is this
• 1:07:36
  misunderstands the virtues of the program.
• 1:07:39
  And I get that, but the the beauty of Doctor Who is it is
• 1:07:44
  this crazy mosaic where it goes through different periods where
• 1:07:48
  the fact is, I will sometimes be in a mood for a grotesque story
• 1:07:55
  where people get blown up and die horribly.
• 1:07:57
  And there are sardonic jokes in it.
• 1:07:59
  And there's plenty of season 22 to give me that.
• 1:08:02
  And the fact that I can allow myself that guilty pleasure is
• 1:08:06
  because it works in contrast to other areas of the show.
• 1:08:10
  So, you know, I'm not trying to write a thesis here.
• 1:08:12
  I'm not trying to justify myself to the European Court of Human
• 1:08:15
  Rights, just in the fast crazy mosaic of Doctor Who.
• 1:08:18
  This does offer me something that other periods of the show
• 1:08:22
  don't. And whether it's whether it's
• 1:08:25
  real Doctor Who or not, well, I'm afraid it is real Doctor Who
• 1:08:27
  because it was on it, said Doctor Who on it.
• 1:08:30
  I'm less tolerant than you now and less tolerant than I used to
• 1:08:34
  be of people who want to put a red line through this and say
• 1:08:38
  this isn't Doctor Who, this is good and you get that.
• 1:08:40
  I didn't. I tweeted something about liking
• 1:08:43
  something that Eric say would have written once and I got a
• 1:08:46
  few a thing kicked off in my mentions of the people telling
• 1:08:48
  me that no, actually it's shit and Doctor Who shouldn't have
• 1:08:50
  been like that. And and this is the this is and
• 1:08:53
  and it's sort of like the I think the records got stuck a
• 1:08:56
  bit on this being the failed era of Doctor Who, which it wasn't
• 1:09:02
  didn't feel like at the time, Michael Grade hated Doctor Who.
• 1:09:04
  Michael Grade would have hated, Oh great, even hated the horns
• 1:09:06
  of bloody Nyman, which everybody loves now and and can tell no
• 1:09:10
  difference between this and that.
• 1:09:12
  But Michael Gregory had absolutely no difference between
• 1:09:14
  this and the horns of Nyman. And they're both just this rappy
• 1:09:16
  science fiction show that he wanted to get rid of.
• 1:09:18
  But people sort of now. So, yeah, I don't know.
• 1:09:22
  I don't know if it's the people with the histories proved been.
• 1:09:23
  It's just that the pendulums got stuck on on on a downer on this
• 1:09:29
  more darker style of, of, of of Doctor Who when in the past it
• 1:09:36
  seemed to flow a bit, swing a bit more freely.
• 1:09:39
  And for a while there'd be a lot more.
• 1:09:41
  I mean, and people who are fans of the Graham, I mean, me and Cy
• 1:09:43
  Hart talk about, you know, because the Graham Williams era
• 1:09:45
  is his absolute favorite era of Doctor Who didn't do much.
• 1:09:47
  He didn't do much when he was a kid.
• 1:09:48
  I saw it occasionally didn't draw me in.
• 1:09:51
  And then so it was that was never my favorite era of Doctor
• 1:09:54
  Who. But you don't.
• 1:09:55
  And but you probably did in the past.
• 1:09:57
  You used to get people saying that was when that was when
• 1:09:59
  Doctor Who lost its way. I love it when people say Doctor
• 1:10:01
  Who lost its way in the 80s because that can mean that
• 1:10:04
  either means they didn't like the Eric Saywood era or they
• 1:10:07
  didn't like the, the, the, the Andrew Carmel era.
• 1:10:13
  When people say Doctor Who left lost its way in the 80s, it came
• 1:10:15
  into absolutely opposite things. But, and there comes a point
• 1:10:18
  where I guess Doctor Who has just been so many different
• 1:10:20
  things that it cannot please everyone and and consensuses
• 1:10:23
  will form. But it's the old Gumby frock
• 1:10:26
  thing that we used to. We don't hear so much about
• 1:10:27
  these. There's I think frock has won
• 1:10:29
  pretty conclusively. And this is, this is but, but
• 1:10:33
  again, it's, it's a Doctor Who with guns.
• 1:10:34
  But it's camp. It is camp.
• 1:10:36
  It's just, it's dark camp rather than fabulous camp.
• 1:10:40
  Well, darkly fabulous camp. What am I even saying?
• 1:10:43
  I don't know. And great grade would have
• 1:10:46
  pulled it if it had been if he'd been in the position to do so.
• 1:10:49
  If if what was being broadcast now was the horns and I'm on,
• 1:10:52
  he'd have just gone. It's to camp and self regarding,
• 1:10:55
  you know, violent and unimaginative Was just the was
• 1:10:59
  was just the charge he wanted to hang it with, but the charge was
• 1:11:02
  kind. It was his job to be a new
• 1:11:04
  group. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:07
  It does seem to be though, in like the old school sense of the
• 1:11:10
  time. New received fat wisdom that the
• 1:11:12
  mid 80s is a pretty sort of black period of Doctor Who.
• 1:11:17
  And yet the more I go dig in I'll find Snake Dance and Kinder
• 1:11:21
  and Enlightenment and Planet Fire.
• 1:11:23
  I realise I'm pulling out all the frock ones there but.
• 1:11:26
  No, but yeah, Eric's David is the man who commissioned
• 1:11:27
  enlightenment. Yeah, I suddenly I look at Toby,
• 1:11:32
  I expect him to be actually. But yeah, it just isn't.
• 1:11:37
  There isn't a reason, a non Eric Saywood reason, why
• 1:11:39
  Enlightenment's so good, other than it having a really good
• 1:11:42
  writer, obviously. But you know, he didn't.
• 1:11:43
  He didn't stop it being good. It was surely like in production
• 1:11:47
  terms they could have sat down Michael Grade and said well
• 1:11:49
  look, look at what we've done on the measly budget you've given
• 1:11:51
  us. You know, this is what we've
• 1:11:53
  produced. Well, should we go and see what
• 1:11:56
  they produced? Oh, how exciting.
• 1:11:58
  OK, well someone count us in then.
• 1:12:02
  Oh, you're both going to be so polite.
• 1:12:03
  Toby, would you count us in, please?
• 1:12:05
  OK, well let's go on a trip to witness the bloodbath at the
• 1:12:11
  Necross Corral. That's all about.
• 1:12:14
  The the the the Murders in the Blue Morgue, 00 and we will do
• 1:12:21
  so in 321. I still want to die on, you
• 1:12:28
  know. Now we both die satisfied.
• 1:12:32
  You before me. Gosh, I I have such memories of
• 1:12:36
  I definitely watch this with my sister.
• 1:12:38
  That's funny, isn't it? How that that's coming back to
• 1:12:40
  me. So I will probably be be in
• 1:12:42
  quoting some of her reactions. This because of course one of
• 1:12:45
  the things about watching Doctor when you were younger is the
• 1:12:47
  reactions of the people around. You.
• 1:12:48
  Oh boy. Yeah.
• 1:12:50
  Especially as it was such a special thing to me, you know?
• 1:12:52
  Yeah, yeah. My worst.
• 1:12:54
  Moment. My worst moment ever was the L1
• 1:12:58
  robot in the series. No, really, when my
• 1:13:01
  sister-in-law saw that. No, the L1.
• 1:13:03
  What's the one on the Caterpillar tracks?
• 1:13:05
  That one. Is it the L3?
• 1:13:07
  That's the L1, Yeah. Drathos the L3 and that's the
• 1:13:09
  L1. Yeah, that's right.
• 1:13:10
  Yeah. I can still feel the
• 1:13:12
  embarrassment. The cringe, that's all part of
• 1:13:15
  it. Don't you love how this is
• 1:13:18
  undercut as well by Joe Bell coming in and being a total
• 1:13:20
  creep? Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  Yeah, someone as pretty as you, and they took him on location
• 1:13:27
  for this one scene. Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  I like pretty things, and you are very pretty, aren't you?
• 1:13:36
  There's the line in this. The production subtitles say
• 1:13:38
  that is it was Nicola's own improvisation to say, what are
• 1:13:40
  you, some kind of weirdo? The line was supposed to just be
• 1:13:43
  go away or something like that. Oh, really?
• 1:13:45
  Oh, good. Well done, Nick.
• 1:13:46
  This. Sequence in the BFI got an
• 1:13:49
  uproarious response. It was wonderful.
• 1:13:53
  Oh, well, he's, he's worth his weight in gold, old Clyde.
• 1:13:57
  And just the fact that he's got a wig, you get, it's the sort of
• 1:13:59
  thing you don't really get in Doctor Who, but it makes you
• 1:14:02
  know, but it's, it's, it's absolutely a thing.
• 1:14:06
  That that interview in DWM, it's almost a shame, isn't it?
• 1:14:10
  It's almost a shame because otherwise you've got 2 grand
• 1:14:13
  performances from him. It's, it's funny, a friend, a
• 1:14:16
  friend of mine met him on a train once and said he was, you
• 1:14:19
  know, really nice and they had a lovely chat.
• 1:14:22
  I mean, my friend is a performer, but I don't know if
• 1:14:23
  it's my friend. It's Robin Ince, who you may
• 1:14:25
  know, And he said they'd, they'd, they'd, they'd had a
• 1:14:28
  chat, but maybe, maybe he recognized Robin so would, would
• 1:14:31
  treat her, you know, a member of the profession differently.
• 1:14:34
  Or, But that said, I, I, I, I, I know some people who work with
• 1:14:37
  him on, on other shows who were, were not especially did not
• 1:14:43
  report him particularly well. So, so it's not just that he
• 1:14:46
  was, he was mean to Ben Cook down the phone because he, he,
• 1:14:50
  he wasn't an actor or anything. Actually, he yeah, I've, I've,
• 1:14:54
  yeah. So I've heard two, I've heard
• 1:14:56
  two different sides of him. But I, I, I've heard more than
• 1:14:59
  one account of people who've worked with him who, who, who
• 1:15:01
  didn't particularly enjoy the the experience, which is a
• 1:15:04
  shame. I suppose.
• 1:15:05
  It doesn't matter What we get is a glorious performance.
• 1:15:07
  But I I always want good actors to be nice people.
• 1:15:10
  Yeah, yeah. But I mean, also, I mean, that
• 1:15:13
  story though, that's, that's, that's great to have something a
• 1:15:15
  little bit infamous, a little bit of infamy in, in the world
• 1:15:18
  of Doctor Who niche. Well, I remember where I was
• 1:15:20
  when I read that interview. And it was like Mike.
• 1:15:22
  Wow this is wow. I'm surprised they let this
• 1:15:26
  through. There's much more to the world
• 1:15:28
  than this little Doctor Who thing, you know?
• 1:15:32
  Keep the coat on, Colin. Apparently someone said that
• 1:15:34
  that that they they had to take the blue coats off of their life
• 1:15:37
  because the blue coat was too dominant for the cameras.
• 1:15:40
  Which is a weird thing considering what he's got on
• 1:15:41
  under it, but. Look at that shot there of just
• 1:15:46
  the whole length of the It's beautiful.
• 1:15:49
  Yeah, yeah, it's terrific, the camera.
• 1:15:54
  Swoops. It doesn't.
• 1:15:55
  It got a crane shot there, which is.
• 1:15:57
  Yeah, as we rush up towards it and it is interesting that we
• 1:15:59
  are familiar with this room, this this place because we spent
• 1:16:02
  a lot of time in it last week and these and now the but now
• 1:16:04
  the doctor is coming into a place that we know and he
• 1:16:06
  doesn't, which is, which is unusual.
• 1:16:10
  Interesting. Yeah, and we know that she's
• 1:16:12
  been consorting with Davros and yeah, the doctor's playing catch
• 1:16:17
  up, really. I have to say I do like Nicola
• 1:16:19
  Bryant's costume in this as well.
• 1:16:21
  This this burgundy number that she's got.
• 1:16:23
  It does look like something that somebody might actually wear,
• 1:16:26
  unlike a lot of the rest of the season.
• 1:16:30
  That little scene is is straight out of the loved ones, the book,
• 1:16:34
  the the, the getting the jargon confused because it's that sort
• 1:16:38
  of thing. We aren't actually eating people
• 1:16:39
  in the book or anything like that.
• 1:16:42
  I love the fact that computer's quite sexy.
• 1:16:44
  And she's like. Hello, Mr. Tarkas, and what is
• 1:16:47
  your pleasure? What can I do for you and
• 1:16:50
  Penelope Lee, who is the voice of the computer?
• 1:16:52
  She's fabulous in an episode of Doomwatch where she's a
• 1:16:56
  scientist who augments rats. Yeah, the other week that's the
• 1:16:58
  best, 1 isn't. It and she and she has she has a
• 1:17:00
  bit of a steamy affair with Doctor, Doctor Ridge, but she
• 1:17:04
  also read for and I think turned down, but certainly read for the
• 1:17:10
  part of Barbara Wright in TV's Doctor Who.
• 1:17:15
  She's the one that gets eaten by the rats at the end of that one.
• 1:17:17
  Well, I was going to say that and then I thought I won't.
• 1:17:19
  Ruin it, let's spoil it something.
• 1:17:21
  It's very old now. Yeah.
• 1:17:25
  I love how they sew the rats on the trousers.
• 1:17:27
  It's just. Glorious, although I did find
• 1:17:29
  that episode well all of do much the sexual politics of do much
• 1:17:32
  really make you appreciate what 1970s nineteen 70 Doctor Who is
• 1:17:36
  lightning years ahead of some of the stuff that's going on
• 1:17:38
  because like has she she's not even married No wonder she's
• 1:17:40
  evil. It's.
• 1:17:41
  No, it's extraordinary. And again, when I first saw it,
• 1:17:44
  I thought it seemed quite grown up because I was, you know, I
• 1:17:47
  was young and thought, wow, old drama's quite, quite naughty.
• 1:17:50
  I watched it again recently when this you can practically smell
• 1:17:54
  the Old Spice seeping through the misogyny.
• 1:17:57
  I think you'd. See the.
• 1:17:59
  Skull in that set. Did you see it?
• 1:18:03
  Next to Tassan Baker? There's a skull holding up a
• 1:18:05
  table. No notice that.
• 1:18:08
  That's the first time I've ever noticed it.
• 1:18:10
  Yeah, as you're saying, when you've got the sound turned
• 1:18:12
  down, you do you notice things that.
• 1:18:14
  Yeah, because, because. Wasn't there a whole sequence
• 1:18:16
  here this? Is where the Flying Dalek was
• 1:18:18
  meant. To be flying Dalek.
• 1:18:19
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The the compromise is pretty
• 1:18:22
  nifty and. And the way, the way Bostock
• 1:18:25
  rolls his eyes when he asks him, have you ever heard of a sword?
• 1:18:27
  He has no master, obviously. Yeah, and I think this is
• 1:18:31
  supposed to be slightly absurd. And it's to it's to, it's to
• 1:18:35
  Gaunts credit that he doesn't sort of play him as puffed up
• 1:18:39
  again. He lets the story and the
• 1:18:41
  character speak for itself. Yeah, because he could go full,
• 1:18:43
  full, full comedy. Folestar.
• 1:18:45
  Yeah, yeah. But absolutely, yeah.
• 1:18:47
  He he, he he could be a you know, oh, it by time, you know,
• 1:18:52
  he. Could be a real.
• 1:18:53
  Sort of hurt. We minister type, you know, and,
• 1:18:57
  and he's not, he plays him as honourable as he thinks he is
• 1:19:01
  and he trusts the script and he trusts his fellow actors to to
• 1:19:05
  do that work for him which. Which actually doesn't he?
• 1:19:08
  I think he really believes, yeah.
• 1:19:11
  He's he's not, he's not doing Don Quixote, you.
• 1:19:14
  Know. What a delicious sight, she says
• 1:19:16
  when she sees the president of Spaceship.
• 1:19:18
  The behind the scenes footage of these two trying to get the eye
• 1:19:20
  line straight so they're both looking at the same point as
• 1:19:22
  just wonderful. They're like, is that my
• 1:19:23
  darling? Have you got it darling?
• 1:19:26
  The there's an hour of behind. It's where they've got the
• 1:19:28
  drinks. You know.
• 1:19:30
  The spatial, the million tiny pieces, I love them.
• 1:19:37
  Oh my. But like he had to say a load of
• 1:19:39
  exposition here, you know, whilst I might have been
• 1:19:41
  temporarily excommunicated, he just sails through this
• 1:19:45
  dialogue. It's strongly there's a hint of
• 1:19:46
  Oscar Bocherbee about him and and purely in that he's someone
• 1:19:50
  who's been Oscar has been exiled from the British Council, isn't
• 1:19:53
  he or something. I mean he can handle a gun as
• 1:19:55
  well. Yeah, I don't think Oscar
• 1:19:56
  Botcher, we could do that. But that's, that's great because
• 1:19:58
  that's supposed to be the sequence where the Dalek flies
• 1:20:00
  over there. But instead they just have the
• 1:20:02
  bit where it shows their interaction.
• 1:20:04
  It shows that, you know, Bostock has these infallible, you know,
• 1:20:08
  senses and instincts. And it's, it's really well
• 1:20:11
  staged, but it's massively simple compared to what they
• 1:20:14
  were gonna do. But I it doesn't look like a
• 1:20:17
  compromise, you know? I buy them as a gay couple over
• 1:20:20
  on Takis and Lil actually right in my mind.
• 1:20:24
  How long have Doug Ross and Cara been business partners?
• 1:20:27
  I'd just like to think there's a whole sitcom out there with the
• 1:20:29
  two of them, you know, constantly trying to outdo each
• 1:20:31
  other. Yeah.
• 1:20:33
  And how did it all start? How did he get involved?
• 1:20:34
  You know, how did he did his shuttle crash here?
• 1:20:36
  And then he's had years and years because the whole, because
• 1:20:40
  genesis, destiny and resurrection, as far as Davos is
• 1:20:42
  concerned, is about four hours of his life because he's asleep
• 1:20:45
  or unconscious in between them all.
• 1:20:47
  And then he has the whole rest of his life being the great
• 1:20:49
  healer. Sort of constantly keep digging
• 1:20:51
  into Big Finish. But Lance Parking writes Davros
• 1:20:54
  for the Big Finish, which is set between Resurrection and
• 1:20:58
  Revelation and shows Davros sort of studying the stock markets
• 1:21:04
  and all of this and getting all the information of this time
• 1:21:07
  period and just gently sets all of this up.
• 1:21:10
  Sometimes Big Finish can do that really well.
• 1:21:11
  Just add a little bit. Of well love idaf.
• 1:21:13
  So that's different to Idavros is the is the prequel, isn't it
• 1:21:16
  when he's young? Digs into his past.
• 1:21:18
  Yeah, yeah. But of the that was just Davros.
• 1:21:20
  Malloy was out of this world. That that's the Davros, Omega
• 1:21:25
  and Master ones were brilliant, weren't they?
• 1:21:27
  Yeah, yeah, they just had so much to do and so much character
• 1:21:32
  to pack in. I have already dispatched a
• 1:21:35
  squad for your protection. Oh, the polls are.
• 1:21:41
  They just don't move for a minute.
• 1:21:42
  If they know the game's up, that's it.
• 1:21:44
  They know the game's up already. Oh, please don't kill Vogel I.
• 1:21:50
  I checked, I was saying how many women were were considered for
• 1:21:53
  this role. Maybe, maybe I made it big up a
• 1:21:56
  bit and made it sound more. Oh, the whole that's one of the
• 1:22:01
  greatest line readings. Both Juliet Bravos were on the
• 1:22:04
  list, which to my mind is as good a list as you can get, but
• 1:22:10
  I don't think it would have worked with either of them.
• 1:22:11
  God. Bless them both.
• 1:22:12
  No, absolutely not. I mean, they're both fantastic
• 1:22:16
  actresses, but no. You won't.
• 1:22:18
  It's Ellen LeBron or Jacqueline Pearce.
• 1:22:19
  And Jacqueline Pearce would have been too similar to serve aloud.
• 1:22:21
  Anne was. Anne was in it two weeks ago, So
• 1:22:24
  yeah. What are they actually giving
• 1:22:26
  Nicola Bryant Americanisms now, She just said.
• 1:22:28
  I'm curious to know where he picked up his patter, but she's
• 1:22:31
  starting to sound a bit more like an American.
• 1:22:33
  I think, I think it's the precursor to just as Buffy the
• 1:22:35
  Vampire Slayer invented Buffy speak.
• 1:22:37
  I think in fact, between them accidentally, Eric Saywood and
• 1:22:40
  Pippen, Jan Baker created Perry speak.
• 1:22:42
  There's a completely unique way of phrasing sentences, but
• 1:22:45
  stuff. Like, you suspect another
• 1:22:47
  motive, stuff like that. OK, yeah.
• 1:22:52
  See, that's great as well. Where he leans into Perry,
• 1:22:54
  there's an understanding. They're a team.
• 1:22:57
  In this story, these two are a team.
• 1:23:00
  But I think he's learning throughout the season as well
• 1:23:02
  where to pitch the doctor. Like it's just such a shame it
• 1:23:06
  was Karl here. I think he's just there now.
• 1:23:09
  I love the way that when she says, you know what, what do you
• 1:23:11
  think? And he goes absolutely nothing.
• 1:23:13
  I was only showing an interest. I think he's, I think he pitches
• 1:23:15
  that absolutely perfectly. It's charming.
• 1:23:19
  Yeah. Oh, he does pain well as well,
• 1:23:21
  doesn't he? He does.
• 1:23:25
  The Dalek voices in this one, Yeah, God love Roy Skelton, but
• 1:23:29
  it's just silly. Like it is just silly holding
• 1:23:32
  his nose. They've not got the same level
• 1:23:34
  of no. I think.
• 1:23:36
  Manipulation, Have they? Wasn't that deliberate though,
• 1:23:39
  that they were supposed to be sort of expressing that they're
• 1:23:41
  more human than? Yeah.
• 1:23:43
  And are the are the grade Alecs more old school and they turn
• 1:23:46
  up. I always get used by that.
• 1:23:48
  Yeah, I mean, I think they are, but I don't know if I'm
• 1:23:50
  imagining. This rose, this is all.
• 1:23:51
  Close and uncomfortable camera, yeah, but because I think it
• 1:23:55
  feels slightly handheld, this camera that it's it's sort of
• 1:23:58
  like shoved up right against them, like you're stuck next to
• 1:24:00
  somebody in a lift who's just a bit too close and a bit too
• 1:24:03
  sweaty and the way he walks off is.
• 1:24:05
  Yeah, and the last thing of the ferry has already become a
• 1:24:08
  cliche. But here she meets someone who
• 1:24:10
  doesn't, who just think who? Yeah.
• 1:24:13
  But the lies are great, you know the jokes are great.
• 1:24:15
  I love a woman who plays hard to get.
• 1:24:17
  Well then you'll love me to death.
• 1:24:19
  Now this is met. This is meta.
• 1:24:20
  Isn't that your real accent, Nicola?
• 1:24:23
  Is it? But I love the way that the the
• 1:24:25
  actual DJ behind all the all the, you know, patter is
• 1:24:29
  actually just really sweet and and really delightful.
• 1:24:33
  I think because I know some people don't like Alexis Allen,
• 1:24:35
  this, I think he's absolutely fantastic.
• 1:24:38
  Yeah, me too. Yeah, I just got, he's got the
• 1:24:40
  the range to be the grotesque and then to be the nice.
• 1:24:43
  A nice chap, it turns out. Yeah.
• 1:24:45
  Because it could just be between this and and mysterious planet.
• 1:24:49
  There's almost a little character thing happening with
• 1:24:53
  Perry here getting homesick, isn't it?
• 1:24:54
  She says it here, she says it there.
• 1:24:57
  I realise there's 18 months between the two but.
• 1:25:00
  No, But yeah, she, she even at this point, you'd be expecting
• 1:25:04
  her to leave in the next series. It's unusual for a companion to
• 1:25:08
  do more than two, isn't it? Yeah.
• 1:25:12
  But is this the point? Is she still pretending to be
• 1:25:14
  American to everyone at work, or is that has she come out as not
• 1:25:17
  being American by now? Because that was the whole
• 1:25:19
  thing, wasn't it, that she and Colin talk about.
• 1:25:21
  And I, But I think when they talk about it, they've bigged it
• 1:25:23
  up a bit. Now, for anecdotal purposes, you
• 1:25:29
  have. Affections, lawyers.
• 1:25:31
  Just awesome here. And he's having to work his face
• 1:25:36
  so hard, isn't he, to get little emotions on that mask.
• 1:25:39
  And he's doing it. I mean, she's saying everything
• 1:25:42
  he wants to hear, but she's still looking at that camera
• 1:25:44
  adoringly. I've also got a feeling that the
• 1:25:47
  still of Joe Bell is from a scene that's to come, so it's a
• 1:25:51
  prophesying camera it. Makes a change from it being
• 1:25:57
  ABBC. The time scanner.
• 1:25:59
  Yeah, yeah, it makes a change for being ABBC Publicity photo
• 1:26:03
  of the actor. Yeah, that's very true.
• 1:26:05
  Yeah. Spotlight, Yes.
• 1:26:07
  Here's Joe Bell's Spotlight picture.
• 1:26:12
  Hey, Eric Sarad really didn't like the casting, did he?
• 1:26:14
  He he was very vocal about it. Oh, really?
• 1:26:18
  Yeah. In the in the commentary, yeah.
• 1:26:20
  No, no, no, no. Not Clive Swift.
• 1:26:21
  No Jenny Thomason. Oh, Jenny Thomason, I can see
• 1:26:25
  why she was a funny actress. We need we need actresses like
• 1:26:30
  this. And and I'm not sure that that
• 1:26:33
  everything she does the actress is completely in control of.
• 1:26:36
  Do you know what I mean? But because I think she's rather
• 1:26:40
  good casting because she was quite AI think she was quite a
• 1:26:44
  an an an oddball. It it curiously kind of works if
• 1:26:48
  you divorce it from the idea that you're watching an an
• 1:26:52
  actress trying to do something. So I can see why I could see why
• 1:26:56
  people might think it's a bad performance, but I, I kind of
• 1:26:59
  think it works on its own terms really, I think.
• 1:27:02
  It's genius, like she's playing the ugly duckling and they found
• 1:27:06
  an actress that does that without acting, so she's just
• 1:27:10
  have to turn up and say the lines and it you feel for her.
• 1:27:14
  She is typecast, but it's exactly what the role what what
• 1:27:17
  Harper wants. Nowadays they've cast a model
• 1:27:20
  and just put glasses on her. Oh, a minute's silence.
• 1:27:23
  We're about to lose Vogel. Ossini has entered the
• 1:27:26
  catacombs. These pink drinks they've got.
• 1:27:29
  As I said, I was saying to Joe in the intermission, you can
• 1:27:31
  sing to the tune of This is the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
• 1:27:35
  This is Ossini of the odour of all of the Order of Oberon.
• 1:27:39
  Thousand tiny pieces, but I shan't.
• 1:27:40
  I mean, you didn't sing it, you just said it.
• 1:27:43
  This is the best. What a thing to say to Darling.
• 1:27:47
  It's the. Fact that he dies and then he
• 1:27:48
  pauses and then he falls. Oh, it's wonderful.
• 1:27:53
  Here we go. I think it's, I think it's
• 1:27:55
  glorious that that sort of little pained look that he gives
• 1:27:58
  her. Our babies would have been so
• 1:28:01
  beautiful. He's offended by the etiquette
• 1:28:06
  of it all. Yeah.
• 1:28:08
  Oh, and her voice cracks here. Put the line how difficult it is
• 1:28:13
  to get into good secretaries. I mean, that could, that could
• 1:28:16
  have been delivered to make her completely heartless.
• 1:28:18
  And so she doesn't care about him at all, really.
• 1:28:19
  And she does the exact opposite with it.
• 1:28:21
  Yeah. It's.
• 1:28:22
  Beautiful. I feel like the acquisite the
• 1:28:26
  actress. Is exquisite.
• 1:28:27
  Nudge to just give little extra idiosyncrasies, aren't they?
• 1:28:31
  I because I love her so I searched audible for books that
• 1:28:34
  she narrates and she narrates a satirical novel from the 20s I
• 1:28:39
  think or 30s called House of Mirth by oh I'm blanking on the
• 1:28:44
  name because I'm not in front of me but it's a very very.
• 1:28:46
  Naughty man. In that book she says the word
• 1:28:51
  exquisite 16 times. I made I made an edit of just
• 1:28:55
  that. That's like your
• 1:28:57
  differentiations of exquisite. Honestly, beyond anything I
• 1:29:00
  expect, the way you looked at them there, I was never so keen
• 1:29:04
  on this Dalek thing. He's great.
• 1:29:08
  The headless. Statue under the monitor is just
• 1:29:11
  disturbing. It looks like it's in pain and.
• 1:29:16
  That Dalek in the back, look, it's just sort of twitching
• 1:29:18
  there in the background. Yeah, but it's great because
• 1:29:20
  it's slightly out of focus and. And it sort of heckles.
• 1:29:24
  He should be exterminated. Really.
• 1:29:26
  Would a Dalek tell Davros that? I think this one clearly would.
• 1:29:29
  Is this the sort of thing that Davros is up to all the time?
• 1:29:32
  You know, between grand plans, Sort of.
• 1:29:35
  Just stirring and stuff, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:29:40
  Oh OK, I always forget this line that he once had this
• 1:29:43
  conversation with Joe Bell. Yeah, I once offered him
• 1:29:47
  immortality. Yeah, she actually said.
• 1:29:49
  Oh, no, thank you. I'm, I'm, I'm loving Tasa Bika
• 1:29:53
  in this because I think she's such an unusual character for
• 1:29:55
  Doctor Who and, and, and it's, and it's such a sort of the
• 1:29:59
  story is so cruel to her in a way.
• 1:30:03
  Yeah, I I just think all the characters in this are really
• 1:30:07
  interesting. I love the fact that even at the
• 1:30:11
  last minute, even when she knows she's probably going to get
• 1:30:13
  killed, she still goes to him and says play, you know, leave
• 1:30:16
  with me, let's go. And then they're just a fit of
• 1:30:21
  rage stabs a high. And the Davos, it's just a game.
• 1:30:24
  Yeah, she. Risks her life to save him and
• 1:30:26
  he's. And then?
• 1:30:27
  Real to her. And in the end, she doesn't.
• 1:30:29
  When she kills him, she knows that she's already Davos is
• 1:30:32
  going to kill her anyway. So she isn't doing it to please
• 1:30:33
  Davos anymore because she's already publicly defied Davros.
• 1:30:37
  Yeah, no, she's doing it because he.
• 1:30:39
  Actually want. Yeah.
• 1:30:41
  He actually wants to kill him. Now, Collie Baker is not a small
• 1:30:44
  man, but they go into this cell in a minute and the way he just
• 1:30:47
  beats him to the floor, oh, he's so cool, isn't he?
• 1:30:50
  Yeah, and this is the moment that banishes any of your doubts
• 1:30:54
  about whether he might have been a just playing.
• 1:30:58
  You know what I mean? This is where he has got metal.
• 1:31:00
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's got the move.
• 1:31:01
  He could. He would kill you.
• 1:31:02
  The doctor very apologetically says even you know, only I would
• 1:31:06
  be stupid enough to attack one of them.
• 1:31:09
  It's great, he doesn't think wince.
• 1:31:12
  It's like, oh, what an inconvenience.
• 1:31:15
  Yeah, no, it's really cool and well.
• 1:31:17
  And he hands him the cane and then takes it.
• 1:31:20
  That beautiful. He's so cool.
• 1:31:23
  I want to be Orsini. I'll never be Orsini, but we can
• 1:31:28
  hope. Yeah.
• 1:31:32
  So now, now. Gregory and Natasha are surplus
• 1:31:36
  to requirements, aren't they? Pretty much, yeah.
• 1:31:41
  And oh, he's going to do a hiccup, isn't he?
• 1:31:43
  Because alcoholism is hilarious. And so well played.
• 1:31:52
  But yeah. He's really good.
• 1:31:53
  He died very young, didn't he? But I think he's fantastic in
• 1:31:56
  this. Yeah.
• 1:31:57
  Yeah, He he died of AI think the brain he had a brain tumor or
• 1:32:00
  Yeah, he died, died a relatively short time after this, which is
• 1:32:06
  very sad. So this is Tasha Beaker.
• 1:32:08
  Now coming to Joe Bell, to the I think this whole scene is.
• 1:32:12
  Beautiful. Yeah, the fact that it starts
• 1:32:14
  with the closest of that syringe.
• 1:32:15
  I read that it was the only the the idea of Joe Ball having the.
• 1:32:19
  That's that's the, that's that's the bit that was on the, that
• 1:32:22
  was on the, that was on the monitor.
• 1:32:24
  Yeah, that's the greatest invitation I've had all week.
• 1:32:29
  I would rather run away with my mother.
• 1:32:31
  Yeah, I love that A. Boring little creep like you.
• 1:32:35
  He's horrible. He's such a twat.
• 1:32:40
  What does the line fantasise him with a dead mean anyway?
• 1:32:43
  That he says to her in a minute. He's just being cruel.
• 1:32:47
  He's just a bully. He's just horrible and it's so
• 1:32:51
  sad because. And her face is just so gormless
• 1:32:54
  and. I mean, that's just big.
• 1:32:59
  He lies as freely as you pick up women.
• 1:33:02
  What other Doctor Who story could that come?
• 1:33:04
  Out. And and what is it?
• 1:33:07
  Fat me, Fat my. Favorite figure is the height
• 1:33:10
  of. Fashion just fantastic.
• 1:33:13
  And how so? How often, doctor, do we get a
• 1:33:16
  person declaring their their passionate love for someone else
• 1:33:18
  in the areas? And I would have normally
• 1:33:20
  opposed that entirely. That's nonsense and hanky panky
• 1:33:22
  and boring. That's other TV shows, you know,
• 1:33:24
  Howard's Way is about people saying they're in love with each
• 1:33:26
  other. Doctor Who's got more
• 1:33:27
  interesting things to do? Except in this story.
• 1:33:30
  The fact that it's this. Woman, yeah.
• 1:33:31
  And that man, yeah, it's just sort of ugly and.
• 1:33:37
  It's, but it's strangely sort of beautiful, isn't it?
• 1:33:40
  It's unreal and true, even though they're, you know, quite
• 1:33:44
  quite broadly drawn. You know that.
• 1:33:46
  But that's the whole point that you get to the truth through,
• 1:33:49
  you know, just just because something is big, it doesn't
• 1:33:51
  mean it's not not true. That's.
• 1:33:53
  The choice there, the people. Mumbling.
• 1:33:56
  She looked straight at the camera and went, I knew you
• 1:33:58
  could be cruel, but even you have excelled yourself.
• 1:34:02
  Very. Theatrical.
• 1:34:04
  And of course, sadly, I remember I, I did watch this with my
• 1:34:06
  sister and of course she noticed what we now know is, is a cut
• 1:34:10
  for taste that you know, she, she stabs him and it's full.
• 1:34:13
  And then he died. And when he dies, it's empty.
• 1:34:16
  But that's not. So they were like, yeah, they
• 1:34:17
  were like. That's not a mistake.
• 1:34:18
  That's not a mistake. It's that.
• 1:34:21
  It's a. Censorship.
• 1:34:22
  It's censored, yeah. I'm astonished, though, of all
• 1:34:25
  of the brutal scenes in this, that was the bit they chose to
• 1:34:28
  cut out. Yeah, I guess it's the imitable
• 1:34:31
  imitability thing, isn't it? Children might find a syringe
• 1:34:34
  around people. With waves and.
• 1:34:36
  All you know that she's done it. Yeah, and I just love the fact
• 1:34:38
  that his wig falls off. It is so.
• 1:34:41
  Well, I think it reveals all of his inadequacies, that is.
• 1:34:44
  So brilliant. And the the the production
• 1:34:48
  subtitles, I think it is that say that the whole thing of him
• 1:34:50
  having the toupee came out of them deciding that that he
• 1:34:53
  should let's give him a toupee. So when he dies, it falls off.
• 1:34:56
  And that is a whole reason for the toupee even being there.
• 1:34:58
  Oh, well, it's a fabulous. Yeah, Tassa Beaker's usefulness
• 1:35:03
  is at an end. Also, props to the fact that
• 1:35:10
  Alexi Sale is speaking in his his native Scouse accent,
• 1:35:13
  because even at this point in the BBC, there aren't an awful
• 1:35:17
  lot of regional accents in Doctor Who.
• 1:35:19
  Unless you're doing I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a
• 1:35:24
  bit unsophisticated sort of like that.
• 1:35:27
  So it's, it's nice. It's nice that it, that Alexis
• 1:35:30
  feels really modern. I remember it felt really
• 1:35:32
  modern, having this guy who was in the Young Ones and all of
• 1:35:35
  that. Oh, here's the slightly less
• 1:35:38
  impressive. Yeah.
• 1:35:43
  But we do have that line in a minute, which is one of the
• 1:35:45
  coolest lines in Doctor Who. Was it?
• 1:35:47
  It's a highly directional ultrasonic beam of rock.
• 1:35:50
  And roll. Yeah, it kills.
• 1:35:53
  And and all the but he's there that's the moment where he pulls
• 1:35:58
  pulls up one of his personas. That's one of his he's something
• 1:36:00
  goes back into his DJ voice to do it to kill the Daleks with
• 1:36:03
  like that's his battle cry destroy the.
• 1:36:07
  Battling DJ, he's so brave. He.
• 1:36:13
  Blows the top of a couple of Daleks.
• 1:36:15
  This story is mad in it. That juxtaposition of
• 1:36:18
  rock'n'roll. You know, a funeral parlour,
• 1:36:21
  Daleks. It's just mad, isn't it?
• 1:36:24
  And the pacing, I'm sure we're going to do this.
• 1:36:26
  Yeah. And so where are we?
• 1:36:27
  So we do, Yeah. We've just passed the halfway
• 1:36:29
  back, haven't we? So.
• 1:36:29
  And the real sense that this is all spiralling out of control.
• 1:36:32
  Yeah, yeah, it doesn't let up at all.
• 1:36:33
  Does. It and this could easily, you
• 1:36:35
  know, if this was going to be Nicola Bryant's last story, this
• 1:36:38
  could easily be Perry Dye. It gets exterminated.
• 1:36:40
  You would. It would not jar with the tone
• 1:36:42
  of the thing at all. And now they die, and then it's
• 1:36:46
  almost death after death after death, isn't it?
• 1:36:48
  From one thing to another. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:36:50
  And yeah. And I know some people don't
• 1:36:52
  want Doctor Who stories to ever be like that, but I like it when
• 1:36:56
  they are sometimes. Yeah, and because and because
• 1:36:58
  the characters are also well drawn, that's that's essentially
• 1:37:01
  what the drama is. And, you know, I'll mention
• 1:37:03
  those movies again and, and that, that, that you actually
• 1:37:07
  don't need a particularly complex plot.
• 1:37:09
  Actually, if your, if your drive of your story is I, I, I hope XY
• 1:37:14
  and Z person gets out alive. Oh, they haven't.
• 1:37:16
  That's sad. And it's, it's a, it's a sort of
• 1:37:20
  simple formula, but I it works and I like it, you know?
• 1:37:23
  What's great about Davros is he's so canny, isn't he just
• 1:37:27
  saying where he said activate a specimen then leave me.
• 1:37:30
  Yeah, he knows or seen is coming.
• 1:37:34
  I'm I'm afraid I, I I don't think this sequence works.
• 1:37:38
  I don't. Think it's.
• 1:37:39
  Entirely clear what's going on. The the, the, yeah, the the
• 1:37:44
  death of Natasha and Gregory is it's quite difficult to make out
• 1:37:47
  what's happening. There's a few bits where the
• 1:37:49
  ambition means that a a couple of the scenes don't quite work.
• 1:37:54
  They had a lot of overruns, didn't they?
• 1:37:56
  Unless they think. Yeah, and it's it's a shame
• 1:37:58
  because HARP is so good. But it's not incompetence.
• 1:38:01
  It's it's, it's, it's trying to pull off too much.
• 1:38:04
  And it does mean that some scenes get compromised.
• 1:38:08
  What's incredible here is when he comes in with a gun and
• 1:38:10
  starts like, that's a really small space, and yet he makes
• 1:38:13
  this feel really dynamic. This, this is fantastic.
• 1:38:16
  All of this stuff's great. And they've added special effect
• 1:38:20
  on the DVD release. They added extra glow and stuff
• 1:38:23
  around like Davros Design. It doesn't need it.
• 1:38:25
  I mean find it for a bit of fun if you want to, but I would
• 1:38:27
  always watch the original because it just looks.
• 1:38:28
  Kasha and Gregory's day, if they reshot bits for that and they
• 1:38:33
  they have a model Dalek rise and shoot them.
• 1:38:36
  So it's very clear what's happening.
• 1:38:38
  In the newspaper I'm just talking about, Yeah, I've
• 1:38:41
  forgotten that, yeah. And or senior of course knows
• 1:38:46
  that was too. Didn't you see time, Lash?
• 1:38:49
  We know there's 20 minutes to go.
• 1:38:54
  Great reveal of Davros, though. Yeah, that looking up at Davros,
• 1:38:58
  Yeah. And the fat is.
• 1:39:01
  He's very cool. And these two can read each
• 1:39:04
  other's minds. They don't need.
• 1:39:05
  Yeah, they can conspire without even speaking.
• 1:39:09
  Blowing his leg off. Oh, great stuff.
• 1:39:16
  Well, we're just. Kidding though, it's going a
• 1:39:17
  little bit over the top. That's what this is.
• 1:39:20
  I mean, that special effect doesn't.
• 1:39:21
  Quite, that doesn't work. No, because you have a blur, but
• 1:39:23
  it nearly works. And it's, and it's very
• 1:39:27
  ambitious. And actually considering the
• 1:39:29
  space that they have in that set, I, I don't think it doesn't
• 1:39:33
  look like it's not a Pennant Roberts fight scene, you know,
• 1:39:36
  where 2, where 2 sets of people not very far from each other
• 1:39:39
  miss, you know, I think, I think the way that, that John Ogwyn
• 1:39:43
  and and William Gaunt work together, they look like pros
• 1:39:46
  who know what they're doing. If, if, if you really examine
• 1:39:49
  how much space they're in and, and, and the blocking of that,
• 1:39:52
  it is kind of a load of a couple of Daleks and two people sort of
• 1:39:56
  missing each other, but it works.
• 1:39:57
  This doesn't work however. This.
• 1:39:59
  Is the angle. I think is poor you have.
• 1:40:01
  To take, you just have to take it as.
• 1:40:03
  And it's a shame to look like you don't really know what's
• 1:40:05
  going on and it needs that close up of them on the floor.
• 1:40:08
  But it's a it's a pretty crap end for those two, which is a
• 1:40:12
  shame. But I think that DJs in where he
• 1:40:17
  gets to blow the top of a couple of Daleks and then goes to see
• 1:40:21
  if the coast is clear, he gets a great death.
• 1:40:24
  It's a really horrible scream as well when he goes.
• 1:40:26
  I love the comparison between the the type of exploding Dalek
• 1:40:29
  you're allowed to have in the studio versus the exploding
• 1:40:31
  Dalek we were allowed to have on location.
• 1:40:34
  I didn't like the lyrical enough about the Doctor and Perry being
• 1:40:36
  in the woods because me and my friends used to play Doctor Who
• 1:40:40
  in the local in the spinny the woods at the bottom of our
• 1:40:42
  village and and some and including in the snow.
• 1:40:45
  And I had creeped about in the woods looking for Daleks when I
• 1:40:47
  was little, and to see it actually happening was just love
• 1:40:51
  to love to hear the. Woods Oh, what a pretty good
• 1:40:53
  box. What did you?
• 1:40:55
  Do and I love her outfit too and she looks absolutely gorgeous in
• 1:40:59
  her look. At that, yeah.
• 1:41:00
  The whole set. And is this where he references
• 1:41:03
  a box of delight which had just been on?
• 1:41:05
  Haven't you've been watching the BBC Christmas the previous year
• 1:41:09
  and the whole thing? She looks like the wicked witch
• 1:41:11
  from a Disney movie, doesn't she?
• 1:41:13
  She looks great. I just think she could chew up
• 1:41:19
  any lion. I have served you well.
• 1:41:25
  Yeah, but there's nothing that's common about or.
• 1:41:29
  See, It's great. All of this is beautifully
• 1:41:31
  written, it's brilliantly performed and it's superbly
• 1:41:34
  shot. They are all magnificent and
• 1:41:36
  look at the inscrutability of of the impassiveness there of.
• 1:41:41
  And yeah, no, he's a. Cucumber.
• 1:41:43
  And like you're saying, his his to a lot of us at that age.
• 1:41:47
  He's the guy who was always going barrel to his wife
• 1:41:49
  upstairs in that sitcom because I was too young to have known
• 1:41:52
  him from his previous action series.
• 1:41:55
  Yes. It's a great big.
• 1:41:58
  And this, this is pretty you. You would not.
• 1:42:02
  This really struck me when I was younger.
• 1:42:05
  It's. Really grim.
• 1:42:07
  But it's not she. She plays it.
• 1:42:09
  She sort of collapses inwards, doesn't she?
• 1:42:11
  That's. The thing she's so, yeah.
• 1:42:12
  The ways that she holds us, yeah.
• 1:42:14
  Yeah, but I mean, you'd see, you know, you take kids to see plays
• 1:42:18
  where that happens right in front of them.
• 1:42:19
  You could take kids to get to the theatre and they'll get
• 1:42:21
  splattered with blood when Julius Caesar gets stabbed.
• 1:42:25
  It's weird that yeah, I think it's strangely there are
• 1:42:27
  different rules. It's still astonishing, though,
• 1:42:29
  that you had all those characters in that scene and
• 1:42:31
  there's still no sign that the Doctor, all those little drivers
• 1:42:34
  playing out at the. Moment, isn't he?
• 1:42:36
  Yeah, there he is. Yeah.
• 1:42:37
  It's sort of one different about the category.
• 1:42:39
  But is this the bit where in the book?
• 1:42:41
  So I would say I would adds a mission for the Doctor to go and
• 1:42:44
  destroy a Dalek hatchery. This.
• 1:42:45
  Is where he drops his trousers. Yeah, I.
• 1:42:48
  Think is there more to it than that?
• 1:42:49
  I can't remember. I think there is more to it.
• 1:42:52
  He needs the belt, but he's walking.
• 1:42:53
  Around. Oh, that's what it is at one
• 1:42:55
  point. But you know, I I wouldn't
• 1:42:58
  forgive him. But Colin gets such a brilliant
• 1:43:00
  scene with Terry Malloy you know about, yes.
• 1:43:03
  Yeah. Consumer resistance.
• 1:43:07
  Oh, let's see, it was. So sad.
• 1:43:11
  And this is brilliant. I like the way that you have a
• 1:43:13
  pair of voice coming over and then the and Collins actions.
• 1:43:16
  Yeah. The way he closes it is that the
• 1:43:17
  way he went? Collins, oh, he's so good at all
• 1:43:19
  of that stuff. So and underplayed people just
• 1:43:23
  because he can be larger than life, people ignore that he can
• 1:43:25
  underplay things as well. They don't rise to the jokes,
• 1:43:29
  are they? You all can't.
• 1:43:31
  Yeah, but I love that they went that way.
• 1:43:33
  That's brilliant. That's very Doctor Who.
• 1:43:35
  It's our sexy computer voice again.
• 1:43:37
  Oh no, it's not. It's just some model work.
• 1:43:39
  Some nice filmic filming model work there very.
• 1:43:42
  Nice, isn't it? Yeah, rather good.
• 1:43:43
  Oh. This.
• 1:43:45
  I think this is one of the best Doctor Davros scenes.
• 1:43:48
  And we're seeing this set from just that camera angle, though
• 1:43:51
  slightly different to what we've seen this set before.
• 1:43:52
  We're seeing it from Davros Chairs point of view.
• 1:43:57
  Yeah, we've seen a lot of this set, but because the the tank
• 1:44:00
  I'd some of the dialogue in this, some of the Davros
• 1:44:02
  dialogue I didn't understand until I got it was subtitles.
• 1:44:05
  That bit about that tank was but a simple lure it took me years
• 1:44:08
  to figure out. What?
• 1:44:09
  Oh yes, a focal point for an Assassin's bullet.
• 1:44:11
  Yeah. But he was calling it that tank
• 1:44:14
  and I could not figure out what that what he was actually saying
• 1:44:16
  though. I had this very cheery
• 1:44:18
  conversation here about, you know, people eating their own
• 1:44:20
  relatives. Does that mean when they
• 1:44:22
  brandished that bit of food earlier in the that was a bit of
• 1:44:26
  flesh A? Bit of human.
• 1:44:28
  Yeah. And that's, that's, you know,
• 1:44:29
  that's say we're pushing it as far as he can go see him going,
• 1:44:32
  oh, I like Soylent Green. Let's have that.
• 1:44:35
  Yeah, he's he's, he's definitely pushing Doctor as far as he
• 1:44:38
  could take it. But again, I have to say, as a
• 1:44:40
  kid, that makes me feel that my show is really war.
• 1:44:44
  Bloody grown up, you know? That's what you, that's what you
• 1:44:46
  want. It's just coming up on the 40th
• 1:44:50
  anniversary of this, isn't it? March the 20 something.
• 1:44:53
  It can't be because I'm not that.
• 1:44:55
  Old. No.
• 1:44:55
  That must be the 30th at most, 30th at most.
• 1:44:57
  Good point. Colin has to do a lot actually
• 1:45:03
  without dialogue and that's where that little look, I think
• 1:45:06
  he sometimes doesn't get enough credit for the stuff that he
• 1:45:09
  that he does between the lines actually, which I think he's
• 1:45:13
  really, really good at. It's how he quietly goes up to
• 1:45:17
  Ossini at the end, after all the bangs and flashes are done at
• 1:45:20
  the end, you know, and he's going to sacrifice himself.
• 1:45:23
  And these two have read each other.
• 1:45:25
  Yeah, I love all that stuff. Yeah, it's great.
• 1:45:27
  Yeah, and we've got to know Ossini and the doctors only had
• 1:45:31
  30 seconds to well at one previous scene to get to to
• 1:45:34
  judge him and and he gets the measure of him immediately.
• 1:45:39
  It's exchange in a second, yeah. Did you bother to tell them
• 1:45:41
  they'd be using their own relatives?
• 1:45:43
  Certainly not. That would have created what I
• 1:45:46
  believe is called consumer resistance.
• 1:45:49
  That's a great line. Yeah, Davros the Thatcherite and
• 1:45:52
  I suppose it's leaning into aliens specifically that the
• 1:45:55
  second one, isn't it, with the the corporation being at
• 1:45:58
  forefront of. And isn't that so, Davros?
• 1:46:02
  The men I chose were men of status.
• 1:46:05
  They would understand. And everyone else gets made into
• 1:46:09
  food. I mean, the always the business
• 1:46:12
  model of using humans for food doesn't really make that much
• 1:46:14
  sense to me because it takes them a very long time to go to
• 1:46:16
  full size. Like, they're not, they're not
• 1:46:18
  convenient. You.
• 1:46:21
  Are right, he's not farming them, is he?
• 1:46:22
  He's taking. No, that's true.
• 1:46:23
  He's taking the cadavers. Yeah, isn't that's true.
• 1:46:26
  Oh, he. Just doesn't bear thinking about
• 1:46:29
  at all, does it? It's.
• 1:46:30
  No, but of course Famine this is this is 3 months after Band-Aid.
• 1:46:34
  This is being filmed while Band-Aid is going on.
• 1:46:37
  That is number one. We've got a Doctor Who story
• 1:46:39
  about famine. Yeah, that's very true.
• 1:46:43
  But it takes a canny director, right?
• 1:46:45
  This is a a long dialogue scene. And like you said to me, there's
• 1:46:47
  so much else happening here with Orsini, with the Doctor, little
• 1:46:52
  looks, the bomb being moved. And it, and it kind of needs it
• 1:46:55
  because he's killed everyone now.
• 1:46:56
  So I, I think it does structurally, it means it's
• 1:47:00
  slightly sort of slows down to, to, to, to a point where that
• 1:47:05
  scene could have just been the two of them talking, I think, I
• 1:47:08
  think heart, yeah. I see what you mean.
• 1:47:11
  The voices are deeper and, yeah, growlier than the than the white
• 1:47:15
  Daleks on the Yeah, yeah. Is this I'm terribly black
• 1:47:20
  Daleks versus white Daleks in the Civil War?
• 1:47:25
  Well, it's watching. Watching it again though, I'm,
• 1:47:27
  I'm, I'm real props to Alan Spaulding because I think he's
• 1:47:30
  done a, he's done a fantastic job with all this, this design.
• 1:47:34
  I think it's a, it's a real, a really important element to the
• 1:47:38
  story. So just a shame that Cara Colin
• 1:47:42
  only gets to meet Cara's corpse. I mean, it would have been nice
• 1:47:44
  if she was still in this scene. But as I say, everyone's getting
• 1:47:47
  whittled down though. Well, it doesn't meet Rula
• 1:47:49
  Lenska in Resurrection either. It isn't.
• 1:47:50
  It isn't. I'm sorry about the DJ.
• 1:47:53
  Just a little moment. You.
• 1:47:57
  Know oh we've got. Stuck in the foreground and it's
• 1:48:02
  a great effect. In fact that he's handshaking as
• 1:48:06
  well I think is brilliant. And if you can't see it coming,
• 1:48:11
  go on mate. I love that bang.
• 1:48:13
  Oh amazing boss. Doc's been killed.
• 1:48:19
  The doctor goes for the nuts, because of course she would.
• 1:48:23
  Or that be called the solar plexus.
• 1:48:25
  And I love the fact that Davros is fingers are on.
• 1:48:28
  The floor, fingers on the floor. That is grim and.
• 1:48:33
  Again, the Doctor kicking Orsini.
• 1:48:35
  I really like the unspoken stuff between the Doctor and Orsini.
• 1:48:38
  It really works. I think, I think they struggle
• 1:48:41
  to contain to to sort of pull off the Daleks fighting Daleks
• 1:48:45
  scenes because and that does really show how small everything
• 1:48:48
  is. Again, it's a brave stab.
• 1:48:51
  The green blood on his on his bandage.
• 1:48:55
  As well and they've got was it, they've got 4 of each type of
• 1:48:57
  Dalek, but they've only got 4 Dalek operators, so it can only
• 1:48:59
  be two against 2 with a couple lurking at the back.
• 1:49:02
  All I can say to you is aged Nipper, this scene with Daleks
• 1:49:06
  versus Daleks and then blowing up was just.
• 1:49:09
  So expensive Daleks battling in a catacomb, you know, with a
• 1:49:13
  nice flat floor. I wasn't looking at the staging
• 1:49:15
  or how small the set was. It was Daleks versus Daleks.
• 1:49:20
  And we'd all seen Genesis repeated a couple of years
• 1:49:23
  earlier. So all got the LP.
• 1:49:27
  So I mean, that's someone's knew a chunk of dentists by heart,
• 1:49:30
  didn't we? So the the the about Davros
• 1:49:32
  reaching for the button. What do you think about this
• 1:49:34
  ending of the the Dalys coming in and sweeping Davros away?
• 1:49:40
  Well, yeah, it kind of works because you I, I have to say I
• 1:49:43
  kind of prefer it to oh, Davros has blown up and it'll have to
• 1:49:49
  inexplicably survive again. And and the Dalek Civil War
• 1:49:53
  stuff is cut. You know, does does have
• 1:49:56
  ramifications later on in the, in in the show.
• 1:49:59
  So, you know, Daleks and their purity and all of that business.
• 1:50:02
  It does it, it, it doesn't, it does make them interested.
• 1:50:05
  I love the way they call it Doctor No.
• 1:50:13
  And Nicola just sort of has to watch.
• 1:50:15
  She doesn't get any lines for a little while, so she do, but and
• 1:50:21
  the the I like this emphasizes what a what A twist it is at the
• 1:50:25
  start of remembrance when it turns out that Davros's white
• 1:50:28
  Daleks are now the Imperial faction.
• 1:50:31
  And you know, so he's there's that whole thing of what leaves
• 1:50:34
  it in your mind's eye. I'm sure it's been filled in by
• 1:50:36
  many people since then, but how he ends up?
• 1:50:40
  The Emperor handshakes of it. It's easy to forget as well in
• 1:50:46
  this in this story where every character is well cast and well
• 1:50:50
  played. It's easy to take Terry Malloy
• 1:50:52
  for granted, and he's fantastic as Davros.
• 1:50:54
  He really is. It's a really brilliantly
• 1:50:57
  characterized performance. I mean, I love it when he's
• 1:50:59
  barking, but earlier in the story when he was purring.
• 1:51:03
  Yeah, yeah, he's terrific. He's terrific.
• 1:51:06
  It's really. The only chance he gets to do
• 1:51:08
  that on screen isn't it in this story.
• 1:51:09
  Because, come remembrance, he is ranting again.
• 1:51:12
  It's just popping up at the end. Yeah.
• 1:51:14
  And and yeah, and in and in Resurrection, he's more of a a
• 1:51:19
  thing that the Daleks are trying to get and than than the going
• 1:51:23
  to be the star of this story as he is in this.
• 1:51:26
  I can see him working the wheels.
• 1:51:28
  Though I. Can see him wobbling a little
• 1:51:30
  bit, I love. Him calling the Supreme Dalek an
• 1:51:32
  upstart. Oh, this is really exciting as
• 1:51:37
  well. There's a great shot where Colin
• 1:51:39
  turns around with a gun right at the camera.
• 1:51:42
  And Perry gets to do the bomb. I'm never wild about the doctor
• 1:51:46
  having a gun, and I know that's me having my cake and eating it.
• 1:51:51
  This one's head's falling off before it explodes, but it's OK.
• 1:51:55
  Good old Perry gets to blow the dog.
• 1:51:56
  I'm pleased about that. Yeah, I mean, that is something
• 1:51:59
  that's say with nose we love, right?
• 1:52:01
  Cybermen being blown up, Daleks being blown up.
• 1:52:04
  Like he gives us all of that. Yeah, look at look at the way
• 1:52:09
  these characters are placed in camera.
• 1:52:11
  Oh yeah, yeah, the blog. Look at the blocking.
• 1:52:13
  I know. It's such a bad thing to say.
• 1:52:17
  Yeah. And and and oh, William Gaunt is
• 1:52:21
  just so cool. But it is the Doctor, although
• 1:52:26
  he doesn't get to do much throughout the 1st 85 minutes of
• 1:52:28
  the story, in these 5 minutes it is doctor skill and intelligence
• 1:52:32
  and tact that's pulling everyone together, giving everyone things
• 1:52:34
  to do so. And that's been placed the, the,
• 1:52:37
  the, the plant has been placed at the beginning of the story
• 1:52:41
  and ties in with the fact that they talk about it because she's
• 1:52:44
  a botanist, isn't she? And all of that.
• 1:52:46
  Yeah, yeah. I have a bomb and I would like
• 1:52:48
  to explode it. That is, well, sexy.
• 1:52:51
  I I love a self sacrifice in Doctor Who.
• 1:52:53
  Well, when they're done properly.
• 1:52:56
  This is probably the best 1, isn't it?
• 1:52:58
  Yeah, he does. It with such dignity.
• 1:53:02
  There's one particular recent one that rather pales into
• 1:53:04
  insignificance, involving Side the Men and Gallifrey.
• 1:53:07
  I think any. Stop going after kosher on this.
• 1:53:10
  One, I think any number of that that I'm not going to even start
• 1:53:15
  on that, but how you take. Sorry, sorry, but yeah, this is.
• 1:53:18
  Brilliant. A brilliant weapon in your
• 1:53:20
  arsenal. You fire it up someone's ass.
• 1:53:23
  When he strokes. Or stop.
• 1:53:25
  This is getting personal. I love the fact he strokes his
• 1:53:28
  head. And the and the return them to
• 1:53:30
  the order. Tell them I don't love all of
• 1:53:32
  that. Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm always
• 1:53:34
  really gets me. I'm not saying, I'm not saying
• 1:53:37
  Bostock's my type, but when I was a teenager, I had stirring.
• 1:53:40
  I don't know, there's something here.
• 1:53:43
  I thought, no, it is. It's lovely the way that he
• 1:53:45
  plays. It is intimate and that that
• 1:53:47
  could be read in more ways than one, but.
• 1:53:49
  And the fact that he, he takes him with him when he's going to,
• 1:53:51
  you know, he. And look, he's got his stumpy
• 1:53:52
  leg, his, his electronic, you know, because it's his, it's
• 1:53:55
  his, it's got a fake, you know, his fake leg.
• 1:53:57
  Yeah, leg strapped back when you can't see it, can you?
• 1:54:00
  No. But it's kind of hooked under
• 1:54:02
  Bostock's armpit to drag his body along with with his robotic
• 1:54:05
  leg. Yeah, it's, it's really lovely.
• 1:54:08
  I'm sort of sad and brave and daft and beautiful.
• 1:54:13
  I don't. Think the bombs been placed
• 1:54:14
  since the middle of episode 1. Isn't it so?
• 1:54:17
  Everyone run back and forth very quickly to make it look there's
• 1:54:19
  more of you than there really is.
• 1:54:20
  We can't really complain about our Doctor Who's story ending on
• 1:54:23
  a ballet big explosion, can we? So many of them do.
• 1:54:26
  Yeah. I'm not and my I remember my
• 1:54:29
  sister saying when this happened, Oh is as he just
• 1:54:31
  kissed him because he's not he's not he's just sort of going down
• 1:54:34
  and pressing the button. But if if you want to read that
• 1:54:36
  Susie, you can my sister reading the the homoerotic elements to
• 1:54:41
  it the. Graph indicated to Shollac,
• 1:54:45
  wasn't it? Well.
• 1:54:46
  He does, yeah. Oh, I love the graph indicated
• 1:54:49
  they rock and and yeah and and. The two survivors are Tarkus and
• 1:54:57
  Milt, who've been set up early on as being kind of horrible,
• 1:55:00
  baddy types. Yeah, they're the worst ones,
• 1:55:02
  but and the somehow they knew how to summon Daleks.
• 1:55:05
  We don't need to go into it. Well, I mean, that's the you
• 1:55:08
  could say that. Oh, that's bad writing.
• 1:55:10
  It didn't set up how they knew how to.
• 1:55:11
  We could have had a whole thing about them getting Daleks.
• 1:55:14
  The point is the Daleks setting up is meant to be a surprise of
• 1:55:17
  the the the mean Daleks. It is odd that they go
• 1:55:21
  unpunished though, isn't it, when they were seen to be so
• 1:55:24
  brutal earlier in the story? Yes, but they, you know, they,
• 1:55:29
  they are, they being, have they been corrupted by this whole
• 1:55:32
  thing And, and now, but yeah, it isn't spelled out in the way
• 1:55:37
  that it would be now. But sometimes things are
• 1:55:39
  overspelled. I've just started to get
• 1:55:42
  involved. I can't believe this is over
• 1:55:44
  already. I've only been in 5 minutes.
• 1:55:49
  Kudos to all these extras as well though.
• 1:55:50
  I've been all those things. Yeah, they're.
• 1:55:53
  Little hats, they must be very hot under those hats.
• 1:55:59
  I love Trevor Cooper, by the way.
• 1:56:00
  Well, Colin Small and Trevor Cooper, both top blokes and I
• 1:56:03
  think they're both great in this, but Trevor actor.
• 1:56:10
  Colin Spall were a convention last year and he has some great
• 1:56:13
  stories. Well, he's had an amazing
• 1:56:16
  career. I mean, he was a child actor.
• 1:56:18
  He was naughty, wasn't he? Wow.
• 1:56:21
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Perry pulling the rug
• 1:56:25
  from under the Ivor iron joke. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:56:29
  Like this, because we've had that a couple of times before
• 1:56:31
  and that's it. Being done differently.
• 1:56:32
  That's nice now. I didn't.
• 1:56:34
  Nobody watching this at the time knew that.
• 1:56:37
  No, it wasn't meant to end like this.
• 1:56:39
  It's a great ending. I'll take you to who knows
• 1:56:41
  where. That's a lovely way to end a
• 1:56:42
  Doctor Who series. Yeah, it kind of works, doesn't
• 1:56:46
  it? But now it does rather punctuate
• 1:56:49
  the hiatus. As well.
• 1:56:50
  Exactly. Yeah, very much takes on other.
• 1:56:53
  Oh dear, yes. If, if only somewhere they'd
• 1:56:56
  kept that that one second, two second footage of Colin saying
• 1:56:59
  Blackpool people have recreated it and they by I've seen
• 1:57:04
  attempts to recreate it by just splicing in him saying that,
• 1:57:07
  presumably from the big finish of nightmare fair.
• 1:57:10
  While, tweaks or not, I have listened to all of those Big
• 1:57:15
  Finish versions of Magnus and Ultimate Evil and the Nightmare
• 1:57:19
  Fair, we may have dodged a bullet.
• 1:57:23
  Yeah, I mean, none of their fairs all seem to be all right,
• 1:57:27
  but the others also just seem to be back of a bag package jobs
• 1:57:29
  pretty much first draft or first drafts from what I've I've been
• 1:57:33
  looking closely, so maybe I've got an inaccurate impression,
• 1:57:35
  but that's bits that I heard from Big Finish.
• 1:57:37
  Just felt really this hasn't had a first pass of a script editor.
• 1:57:45
  Well, I'm sure you gentlemen would both love to go to bed,
• 1:57:47
  but you know how this works at the end of a hamster commentary
• 1:57:50
  is that you do need to give me 3 reasons as to why you would
• 1:57:53
  recommend Revelation of the Daleks to everybody.
• 1:57:57
  We'll start with Pete, then go to Toby and then I'll come up
• 1:58:00
  the rear Pete. I recommend Revelations to
• 1:58:03
  everybody because it's exceptional.
• 1:58:06
  It's an example of how far away from typical Doctor Who Doctor
• 1:58:10
  Who can get and still, in my opinion, be absolutely
• 1:58:14
  brilliant. Do you want all three?
• 1:58:18
  I can't remember what each. Yeah.
• 1:58:20
  I I love the fact that you're not necessarily watching for a
• 1:58:24
  complex, twisty, turny plot. You're watching a series of
• 1:58:30
  characters and a series of double acts, even who you enjoy
• 1:58:34
  spending the company with, who are beautiful, all wonderfully
• 1:58:37
  acted, who, who actually get indulged with a bit of screen
• 1:58:41
  time. And because, and like anything
• 1:58:43
  with. So I think if if it is done
• 1:58:45
  well, it doesn't matter if you sort of go well, it comes at the
• 1:58:48
  expense of this or the expense of that, It doesn't matter.
• 1:58:50
  I think, I think it's all of the characters are well drawn and or
• 1:58:55
  well played and, or both. And, and I think it's a it's a
• 1:58:59
  great way of telling a Doctor Who story, even if, yeah, all
• 1:59:02
  right, caveat, it does come slightly at the expense of the
• 1:59:05
  Doctor. And I wouldn't want it to be
• 1:59:07
  like that every week. But it's the characters.
• 1:59:09
  The characters are super now. You're going to have to help me
• 1:59:12
  out again here. The designer was Alan Spaulding
• 1:59:16
  and the lighting, Don Babbage, both absolutely superb.
• 1:59:21
  And like even in corridors, the catacombs, you know, such
• 1:59:26
  atmosphere that the weight it was lit from below in the scene
• 1:59:29
  with the brains, all of those weird macabre statuettes in
• 1:59:34
  Davros's lair, like just lots of lovely detail.
• 1:59:38
  We just had time lash and things were a bit matte and plain and
• 1:59:43
  lifeless on Car Fell. So it just goes to show that
• 1:59:47
  when you've got an engaged designer and lighting operator,
• 1:59:53
  that's what you get on the screen.
• 1:59:55
  So that's my first one. Helen LeBron.
• 2:00:01
  Ellen LeBron being Ellen LeBron and loving it.
• 2:00:04
  And there's a there's a clip of her on the on the on the set on
• 2:00:08
  breakfast time a few a few weeks later, I think, talking about
• 2:00:10
  something else mainly, but she mentions she sort of laughs.
• 2:00:13
  Oh, I got to go on Doctor Who and it was wonderful.
• 2:00:15
  It was very I thought it was a very prestigious show to be on,
• 2:00:17
  but other people seem to find it quite funny that I did it Doctor
• 2:00:19
  Who. But she clearly went for it
• 2:00:23
  full, full pelt and gave it her, gives it her all and is one of
• 2:00:28
  the great not to guest villain. Yeah, I suppose.
• 2:00:33
  But it's more it's just the character performance.
• 2:00:35
  It's it's you know what? It's exquisite.
• 2:00:38
  There's just not enough of her though, is it?
• 2:00:40
  I mean, I'd say there's not enough.
• 2:00:41
  Of her yeah and she doesn't get to speak to the doctor that's
• 2:00:45
  and she said yeah ruler lens game has the same thing but yeah
• 2:00:49
  it should have been a six parter.
• 2:00:51
  Did you hear her turn as Rosa in Lugaru the Big Finish audio?
• 2:00:59
  Many years ago, yes. I forgot her.
• 2:01:00
  She was incredible, Yeah. One of the cliffhangers is her
• 2:01:03
  saying to the doctor and I will marry you.
• 2:01:07
  It's just it's a fantastic turn as good as this.
• 2:01:11
  What a class. Act play for the she.
• 2:01:12
  Really is a Galaxy. She really is a class act.
• 2:01:16
  Yeah, me. But you.
• 2:01:19
  Well, and this will give me a chance to mention somebody who
• 2:01:21
  hasn't been mentioned to the two who who is a is a key part of
• 2:01:26
  the success of what I'm about to mention.
• 2:01:30
  And that is Dawka Neoradzik, who does the make up, including that
• 2:01:33
  brilliant mutant make up. But she also, of course, does
• 2:01:36
  the make up for the head of Stengos.
• 2:01:39
  And the scene where Stengos fights against his dialect
• 2:01:43
  conditioning and ends up failing so that his daughter has to kill
• 2:01:47
  him is one of the most compelling, brilliantly acted,
• 2:01:51
  really weird and settling alien, but also human, dramatic,
• 2:01:58
  absolute. It's a fantastic sequence,
• 2:02:01
  really well done by all concerned.
• 2:02:03
  And it really draws you into the story and says, this is a we are
• 2:02:07
  in a grim, grim place. And the fact that it's that's
• 2:02:10
  the guy the doctors come to look for as well is, you know, gives
• 2:02:14
  it gives it an extra dimension. But it's brilliantly done.
• 2:02:17
  And, you know, that goes to show that, you know, you get an actor
• 2:02:19
  who comes in for one scene, Alec Linstead, and he's fantastic.
• 2:02:24
  And it's it's yeah, it's but, but, but even down to the the
• 2:02:27
  throbbing brain on his head, you know, it's organs.
• 2:02:31
  Yeah, it's superb. So that the scene, the Stengos
• 2:02:35
  scene, Yes, please. Yum Yum Yum.
• 2:02:38
  It's worth mentioning that again that that throbbing organ gets
• 2:02:41
  more giddy the the more excited he gets in that scene.
• 2:02:45
  It just gets more and more excited.
• 2:02:47
  I'm with Pete. I don't really like is it Roger
• 2:02:51
  Limbs music? Normally I find it it's it's a
• 2:02:55
  bit like wallpaper and it's all very flat in Arch of Infinity
• 2:02:59
  and time. Flying the others, you know
• 2:03:02
  what's difference? Here is is he starts low in a
• 2:03:05
  lot of scenes and builds and builds and builds and builds to
• 2:03:08
  a massive climax. So you're sort of taking along
• 2:03:11
  with him and he gives this and case around Rosani, which is
• 2:03:14
  enormous energy and momentum in a way that a lot of the music
• 2:03:19
  didn't in the 80s. So kudos that man.
• 2:03:22
  And well done Graham Harper for saying this is what I want
• 2:03:25
  because otherwise we may have had another one of those
• 2:03:28
  electronic scores over this. And Can you imagine that?
• 2:03:35
  No, for me, because it's going to be it's got to be the the
• 2:03:37
  snow Doctor Who on film on location in the snow.
• 2:03:41
  And the fact that it's the the the horror of the mutant and a
• 2:03:45
  situation and and and and and Perry killing a man and all of
• 2:03:49
  that come comes later. But but the as a setup, as A and
• 2:03:53
  the doctor and Perry, you know, they're they're they're
• 2:03:56
  bickering, but it's not that type of bickering.
• 2:03:58
  They're not sniping at each other.
• 2:04:00
  They are genuinely enjoying each other's company and teething
• 2:04:02
  each other as they go. And and yeah, that that location
• 2:04:07
  shoot is just one of the one of the most successful location
• 2:04:10
  shoots in Doctor Whoever. Well, I mean, I've, I've
• 2:04:15
  resisted saying Graham Harper because I assumed somebody else
• 2:04:18
  was going to. We're in danger of getting to
• 2:04:21
  the end and actually not invoking the thing.
• 2:04:23
  That is the best thing. About it and the.
• 2:04:25
  Thing that amazing so, but I mean, I don't know Joe, should I
• 2:04:29
  should I leave him for you because I have no I do have an
• 2:04:31
  alternative. Choice.
• 2:04:32
  I know what Joe's going to say, I think.
• 2:04:34
  OK, well, well then with an honourable mention to the self
• 2:04:38
  sacrifice scene at the end. Self sacrifice to work has to be
• 2:04:42
  earned and you have to earn something from it.
• 2:04:44
  And I'm a sucker for it. When it's done well, it's
• 2:04:46
  absolutely my cup of tea. In fact, the way I want to go is
• 2:04:49
  to be mortally wounded on a spaceship and say to my friends
• 2:04:52
  and loved ones, no, leave me, I'm only holding you back.
• 2:04:55
  And then to. Ram it into the mothership.
• 2:04:57
  That's how I need, that's how I'm gonna go.
• 2:04:59
  It's quite. Likely, don't you think?
• 2:05:01
  Absolutely. It's I'm, I'm, I'm trying to put
• 2:05:03
  all the pieces in in position for that to be the case.
• 2:05:08
  And, and I love that scene and I think it's so well done.
• 2:05:11
  And I think Gaunt is brilliant and I love the rapport with him
• 2:05:14
  and, and John Ogwyn and I think Ossini and Bostock are fabulous
• 2:05:18
  And I think it's a, a beauty. That's the ending of the story
• 2:05:22
  for me really is the, is the end of, of, of Orsini's quest.
• 2:05:26
  But, and that's an individual scene that I think is, is is
• 2:05:30
  wonderful and perhaps one of my one of my favourites of, of the
• 2:05:34
  whole thing. But but as, as he hasn't been
• 2:05:37
  invoked, I think it would be remiss not to say that the key
• 2:05:41
  to the success of this whole thing, because he was over the
• 2:05:44
  casting, because of the way that he shoots it, because of the way
• 2:05:47
  that he judges the atmosphere and paces it and just does
• 2:05:51
  everything with such attention to detail and and such
• 2:05:56
  fastidiousness about getting the best out of the material.
• 2:05:58
  And it does mean there is the odd scene that doesn't quite
• 2:06:00
  work, but it's, it's not from sloppiness, It's from, it's from
• 2:06:04
  pushing it as far as it will go. And so I will accept that
• 2:06:08
  because it means that other scenes that he's pushed as far
• 2:06:10
  as they can go are better than we could ever possibly have
• 2:06:13
  expected them. So, so, you know, we, we, we, we
• 2:06:16
  buy them at that price cost. And I think that's fine.
• 2:06:18
  Graham Harper. Graham Harper is the man.
• 2:06:20
  He's phenomenally good. In the it's the last time I've
• 2:06:24
  seen this in the Revelation commentary, he says when he
• 2:06:27
  first got the script, he was so excited.
• 2:06:30
  He said, I love doing caves, but that was sort of, you know,
• 2:06:33
  standard action. And he went this was weird and
• 2:06:36
  twisted and funny. And, you know, you can feel the
• 2:06:39
  excitement in how he how he shoots every frame.
• 2:06:43
  Yeah, wonderful. I think we love him because he's
• 2:06:45
  so good at the action and the atmosphere and stuff and, and
• 2:06:48
  he'd, but he's brilliant with his actors and he loves his
• 2:06:51
  characters and he's a such good at so good at casting that it's,
• 2:06:57
  it's easy to forget that sign of his game.
• 2:06:59
  And the the way he uses his sets, the way cameras roam
• 2:07:01
  around, the way that like towards the end of the final
• 2:07:05
  episode, you're still seeing new angles on that control Davos's
• 2:07:08
  control room that you haven't seen previously.
• 2:07:11
  Can I say like I did Waters of Mars for another podcast
• 2:07:15
  recently? This is obviously at the start
• 2:07:17
  of his Doctor Who career. That is at the end.
• 2:07:20
  He just got better. Oh.
• 2:07:23
  There's the stuff where the the monsters manifest out of focus
• 2:07:26
  behind people in waters of Mars is absolutely fucking grand.
• 2:07:32
  The last 15 minutes, I mean, I don't think I've ever seen
• 2:07:34
  tension ramped up that well, guys, just amazing.
• 2:07:38
  Well, my very last thing then. Oh, actually, one last thing
• 2:07:41
  about Graham Harper, because it's one of my favorite stories
• 2:07:44
  of director ever tells. And he said it at that
• 2:07:46
  convention that he met Barry Letts.
• 2:07:49
  It's like, I really want to be just a really great director.
• 2:07:52
  And he goes, but you know, I'm not an asshole like, and I don't
• 2:07:56
  want to be an asshole. I'm Barry Letts said to him, you
• 2:07:59
  don't have to be a bad person to get on in life.
• 2:08:02
  Just be a good bloke and be talented.
• 2:08:04
  And he said he took that with him and, and he just, he tried
• 2:08:08
  his damnedest to be the best director he could be and a nice
• 2:08:12
  bloke. And I don't think I've ever
• 2:08:14
  heard anyone say a bad word about him.
• 2:08:15
  Well, no, and I, I, I mean, you know, and of course people
• 2:08:20
  within Doctor Who are going to say things within Doctor Who and
• 2:08:22
  Doctor Who convention and stuff, but I have an independent
• 2:08:25
  because Graham Harper has directed a lot of Coronation
• 2:08:28
  Street. So, and I remember saying to
• 2:08:30
  Chez mentioning about Graham Harper and she went, oh, and,
• 2:08:35
  and I don't think I'd said, you know, he's Doctor Who's best
• 2:08:37
  director or whatever going oh, there's a, there's a, there's a
• 2:08:40
  doctor. I don't know, I can't remember,
• 2:08:42
  but I, I remember it. I kind of wasn't setting her up
• 2:08:45
  for anything. Graham came up and she went, oh,
• 2:08:47
  he's so nice. He's really good with the
• 2:08:50
  actors. And he's yeah.
• 2:08:51
  And, and just, you know, with, without any prompting at all,
• 2:08:54
  gave this sort of eulogy about how, what, how good Graham was
• 2:08:57
  when he's doing something like Corrie.
• 2:08:59
  So yeah. Didn't he drop the cabin on Rita
• 2:09:02
  with that train tram crash? I think he did, yes.
• 2:09:04
  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, who?
• 2:09:06
  If you're going to have anyone blow up Coronation Street, you
• 2:09:08
  want it to be good. OK, well, the very last thing
• 2:09:11
  then, because we do need to go to bed, is of course, Mr. Joe
• 2:09:16
  Bell. I love you.
• 2:09:17
  Yeah, I've risked my whole life warning you like.
• 2:09:21
  This this is the crowning moment of her career.
• 2:09:24
  The the weirdest, most grotesque, somehow engaging and
• 2:09:30
  moving romance or unrequited romance you're ever going to see
• 2:09:35
  on television. Where, yeah, two, well, one
• 2:09:41
  incredible actor and one actor that somehow is finding a way
• 2:09:44
  through the role just deliver a romance the likes of which I
• 2:09:49
  will never see again. It's a bit uncomfortable, it's a
• 2:09:52
  bit ugly. It's very funny in places and
• 2:09:56
  it's deeply moving. I'm not sure how it's all those
• 2:09:59
  things, but it's there on the screen.
• 2:10:03
  Yeah, it's. Fabulous, unique and odd.
• 2:10:06
  And weird with the unique in Doctor Who, Yeah, yeah, it's
• 2:10:08
  great. It's really weird because
• 2:10:11
  sometimes when you're doing this, obviously you're looking
• 2:10:13
  for stuff to say and to chat to you too, and to hopefully be a
• 2:10:16
  bit entertaining and insightful. But watching it this time, I, I
• 2:10:21
  was, I was getting stuff again and it felt fresh and it felt
• 2:10:24
  like, and I, and I kind of, and I've always liked it, but I, I
• 2:10:27
  loved it watching it and talking about it, which is unusual
• 2:10:30
  because it's usually a compromised 1's enjoyment of it
• 2:10:32
  because of all the things that we have to do.
• 2:10:34
  But I was, I was seeing so much in it.
• 2:10:36
  I could, I could watch it again now, I think and, and, and have
• 2:10:38
  a whale of a time. And it's, it's a piece that that
• 2:10:41
  definitely stands a revisit and a revisit and a revisit, you
• 2:10:45
  know, and, and it's rich, you know.
• 2:10:49
  Unbelievable that they went out on the hiatus on this, but here
• 2:10:53
  we are. Well, fellas, thank you very
• 2:10:57
  much for your time tonight. Very quickly, because I think
• 2:11:00
  most people listen to this, know the answer, but I'm going to ask
• 2:11:03
  Pete where you be in podcasting? Well, maximum power of Blake 7
• 2:11:09
  podcast is just about wrapping up now we've but I'm sure that's
• 2:11:12
  going to have a lovely hand like this isn't that's going to have
• 2:11:14
  a lovely happy ending. I'm sure our rebels will get us
• 2:11:16
  to a happy ending for for Blake 7 is coming up any any week.
• 2:11:20
  Now I would didn't have a hand in that as.
• 2:11:21
  Well, they they all become, they all become farmers.
• 2:11:24
  That's right with the way you plan, yes.
• 2:11:26
  And then they all go to Blackpool.
• 2:11:30
  There's that. Listen now for me on the Trap
• 2:11:32
  One podcast. We're going to be reviewing
• 2:11:33
  various bits and bobs coming up and and say hello on Blue Sky,
• 2:11:37
  where I am just quite a mess on Blue Sky, formerly Prof, quite a
• 2:11:41
  mess on Twitter, but it was too long.
• 2:11:43
  I've repudiated my academic falsifications and Toby.
• 2:11:49
  Well, I have a series of podcasts that have the umbrella
• 2:11:54
  title Toby Haydock Time Travels. You get them a bit earlier if
• 2:11:57
  you go onto my Patreon, which is patreon.com/toby Haydock.
• 2:12:01
  Where they they hang out being one is happy times and places,
• 2:12:06
  which is a positive commentary, or one is called too much
• 2:12:09
  information, which is a blow by blow account of the making of
• 2:12:12
  every episode in chronological order, which I might finish
• 2:12:15
  before I die, but I will have that I'll have to be locked in
• 2:12:18
  or something. Or I love that so much.
• 2:12:20
  And, and, and one is called indefinable Magic, which is a
• 2:12:23
  series of sort of whimsical essays that are just designed to
• 2:12:26
  be sort of a bit interesting and fun.
• 2:12:28
  Something, something a bit different.
• 2:12:30
  And is that it? Is that what I do?
• 2:12:33
  Yes, that's what I do. But talking of quite a mess.
• 2:12:38
  My book on the Quatermass. When's this going out, Joe?
• 2:12:42
  When's this going out? Oh, probably in the next couple
• 2:12:44
  of weeks. On the anniversary could put it
• 2:12:47
  on 25th of March. Well, I think, ah well, about a
• 2:12:50
  week after this, I think you will be finding out about a
• 2:12:54
  publication date and a book launch.
• 2:12:57
  Two book launches for the My book about the Greater Mass
• 2:13:02
  experiment, which I hope everyone will buy because it's a
• 2:13:04
  labour of love that has been essentially my life's work.
• 2:13:09
  And you can also see me in the new series of the ITV detective
• 2:13:13
  drama Ridley, where I'm doing what I should be doing instead
• 2:13:16
  of being the Doctor Who guy, being an actor.
• 2:13:19
  That's what I am a grown up to. And if you're on the iPlayer
• 2:13:23
  cruising through Doctor Who land, why don't you take a stop
• 2:13:26
  on episode 4 of the latest series of Waterloo Road and see
• 2:13:30
  what? See how I might have played
• 2:13:33
  Doctor Who had been cast in the role in the 1970s?
• 2:13:36
  Because I play a character who's not 1,000,000 miles away.
• 2:13:40
  Well, I mean, he's just a maths teacher, but I've, I've, I've,
• 2:13:44
  I've added some colour, shall we?
• 2:13:45
  Say vegetable and a scarf. That's me doing my day job.
• 2:13:51
  That's what I'm supposed to do. Really wonderful.
• 2:13:53
  But I got sucked into this whole Doctor Who business.
• 2:13:56
  At the risk of having you throw things at me, I could say that
• 2:13:59
  that character in the Water Rd. was one of the timeless doctors,
• 2:14:01
  perhaps. Well, well, yeah.
• 2:14:05
  See, now I don't know how to take that.
• 2:14:08
  It's a God awful idea, but it would make me cannon.
• 2:14:12
  But that would be a real test of my morality.
• 2:14:16
  I would just like to add one thing is please do check out
• 2:14:20
  Toby's Patreon because as well as all of the fantastic material
• 2:14:23
  you'll get, there's a lovely community of people there who
• 2:14:27
  really engage with, they're coming out And I, I just love
• 2:14:31
  reading all the comments and, and there's dialogues between
• 2:14:34
  people going on. And so these things, I mean,
• 2:14:36
  I've got a picture of myself and these things sort of grow out of
• 2:14:40
  what you give them and. Just kind of organically, it's
• 2:14:42
  nice. Yeah.
• 2:14:43
  We've had we've there's been a lot of back and forth recently
• 2:14:46
  about who has weed next to Doctor Who celebrities, Jason.
• 2:14:51
  Thompson has been causing turf wars, hasn't he?
• 2:14:54
  Yeah, yeah. And, and Owen, there's been
• 2:14:56
  discussions about when, when the first Jumper and Doctor Who was
• 2:15:00
  also, I mean, it's the real gold.
• 2:15:01
  But the, the, the, the, the urinary stories have, have,
• 2:15:05
  have, I mean, have they've, they've, they've continued
• 2:15:09
  tinkling throughout all 10 episodes of the War Games.
• 2:15:13
  I've had David Bradley at the RSC.
• 2:15:15
  Oh love you very good. As a as a fellow audience
• 2:15:18
  member, he wasn't in it. He wasn't in it.
• 2:15:21
  That week. Oh, OK.
• 2:15:21
  All right. Yeah, OK, very good, very good.
• 2:15:24
  Yeah. Well, that's one to add.
• 2:15:26
  That's one to add to the list. Yeah, I don't know how we could
• 2:15:30
  possibly top that. So maybe we should leave on the
• 2:15:34
  one thing that revelation of Daleks didn't give us, and that
• 2:15:36
  was someone having a piss. Toby, Pete, thank you very much
• 2:15:41
  for your time. It's been a true pleasure.
• 2:15:43
  Thanks, Joe. Thanks guys.
• 2:15:45
  It's so much fun.